Rolling Jubilee - for Mashman, with love, Occupy Wall Street

[blue rider]

Something is happening in the States that not only seems a decent thing to do, but also would please Mashman "Mr. No Mo Money"

http://rollingjubilee.org/

It seems that peeps are buying up debts at a penny, not to collect but to forgive. :blink:

No, this is not frivolous debt, but medical debt, as in the US of A one third of the poplulation is actually without medical insurance, and over 50% of all bankruptcies are due to medical cost.

The original goal of this #StrikeDebt project was to raise $50,000 and buy medical debt on the 'collection market.' Since debt on those markets is bought at pennies to the dollar that would yield an estimated $1,000,000 in debt owed that would then be retired without penalty or cost to those who originally and still owed the debt.

Then the idea went viral, tweeted and blogged out across the land, even picked up by the New York Times and now the New Yorker. Almost a week after their telethon on November 15th they have raised more than $412,000, allowing them to retire more than eight million in debt. It is not impossible to envision those numbers reaching $500,000 and $10,000,000 in retired debt before long.

There are trillions of dollars of debt Americans have outstanding (over a trillion in student debt alone); retiring ten million of it is not going to make a dent, that is true.

But the symbolism is as or more important as the boon to those whose debt will be retired. Occupy is credited with having changed the conversation about the wealthiest of Americans and their fair share of taxes; now they are trying to bring that same awareness to a crippling problem that affects many of the ninety-nine percent: continuing crushing medical debt, student debt, mortgage debt and credit card debt all the while those on top had their debts miraculously (or not so miraculously, some would say) forgiven by the United States government.

The message: You are not a loan.


Hat tip: Dailykos.com

[mashman]

Something is happening in the States that not only seems a decent thing to do, but also would please Mashman "Mr. No Mo Money"

http://rollingjubilee.org/

It seems that peeps are buying up debts at a penny, not to collect but to forgive. :blink:

No, this is not frivolous debt, but medical debt, as in the US of A one third of the poplulation is actually without medical insurance, and over 50% of all bankruptcies are due to medical cost.

The original goal of this #StrikeDebt project was to raise $50,000 and buy medical debt on the 'collection market.' Since debt on those markets is bought at pennies to the dollar that would yield an estimated $1,000,000 in debt owed that would then be retired without penalty or cost to those who originally and still owed the debt.

Then the idea went viral, tweeted and blogged out across the land, even picked up by the New York Times and now the New Yorker. Almost a week after their telethon on November 15th they have raised more than $412,000, allowing them to retire more than eight million in debt. It is not impossible to envision those numbers reaching $500,000 and $10,000,000 in retired debt before long.

There are trillions of dollars of debt Americans have outstanding (over a trillion in student debt alone); retiring ten million of it is not going to make a dent, that is true.

But the symbolism is as or more important as the boon to those whose debt will be retired. Occupy is credited with having changed the conversation about the wealthiest of Americans and their fair share of taxes; now they are trying to bring that same awareness to a crippling problem that affects many of the ninety-nine percent: continuing crushing medical debt, student debt, mortgage debt and credit card debt all the while those on top had their debts miraculously (or not so miraculously, some would say) forgiven by the United States government.

The message: You are not a loan.


Hat tip: Dailykos.com

Brilliant find, absolutely brilliant :not:... it brings tears to my eyes to read these sorts of things.

It says that "62% of all bankruptcies are caused by a medical illness". And people call for a pay as you go healthcare and education services etc... I highly doubt that 62% of all bankruptcies are people who don't have jobs.

"Think of it as a bailout of the 99% by the 99%."

Now all we need is a rich bastard (coulda said cunt, either way a generic term for person) over here, or from elsewhere for that matter, to back a no money NZ and then we can sit back and watch the world change and become what it should be. I hope we all get to see it.

[blue rider]

you see the beauty is that no rich 'what ever' is needed. this is people orientated and works with donations. It is quite amazing that 400,000 $ US can buy about 10,000,000 $ debt.

Why the fuck buy a rotting house in Auckland when for the same Money you can collect several millions. Fucked up values if ever I have seen some.:facepalm:

[mashman]

you see the beauty is that no rich 'what ever' is needed. this is people orientated and works with donations. It is quite amazing that 400,000 $ US can buy about 10,000,000 $ debt.

Why the fuck buy a rotting house in Auckland when for the same Money you can collect several millions. Fucked up values if ever I have seen some.:facepalm:

Very true... although the rich are needed to fight the other rich :msn-wink:. It is an absolutely beautiful idea and as you say being able to buy $10,000,000 of something using only $400,000 is exceptionally fucked up... especially as it's an accepted and legal practice. Having said that, the actual money used to create that debt using the fractional reserve system was likely only $100,000 (can't be arsed doing the maths).

[Akzle]

The message: You are not a loan.

no. as a man, you are not.
as a corporate person, that's exactly what you are. a value to be exchanged on the market, security to be loaned/borrowed against by your government.

but hey, i'm no economist, what would i know.

[tigertim20]

Now all we need is a rich bastard (coulda said cunt, either way a generic term for person) over here, or from elsewhere for that matter, to back a no money NZ and then we can sit back and watch the world change and become what it should be. I hope we all get to see it.

ok, Ill bite.
while i agree its a great thing for the states, it is a little different here. people can go broke in the USA from breaking a leg, or and arm or whatever, we have a healthcare system in NZ that means we dont have that issue like the states do.
While I think its brilliant that people are helping others out of hardship - i.e. bankruptcy due to medical costs - due to lack of a sufficient healthcare system, it would be stupid to do the same here. Our bankrupt or people who are going bankrupt from bad debts made by choice, e.g. wanting a car they really cant afford and putting it on tick, rather than due to circumstances of need, i.e. selling everything they own to pay to get their broken leg fixed before it gets an infection that kills them, because the state/government doesnt cover that shit.

My wife is from the US. She simply would not get healthcare cover over there. The USA allows companies to simply deny you coverage, so say you had a serious illness as a child, but overcame it. They can say no, you are too much risk, we will not cover you, ever, end of story. So you go through life without cover. If you break a bone later in life through something totally unrelated to your previous illness, you're fucked if you dont have the money to pay for the healthcare.

This issue has been dealt with somewhat though by the coming introduction of 'Obamacare', which, in it's simplest terms means that insurance companies CAN NOT deny you health insurance - so people like those discussed int he article will now be able to get cover if they were previously unable to


It is an absolutely beautiful idea and as you say being able to buy $10,000,000 of something using only $400,000 is exceptionally fucked up... especially as it's an accepted and legal practice. Having said that, the actual money used to create that debt using the fractional reserve system was likely only $100,000 (can't be arsed doing the maths).

its not fucked up - bad debts are sold regularly at below what is owed - the company that sells the debt is still losing money - if you were to instigate thet same thing in good old enzed, the people getting off the hook would be muppets who wanted a Skyline or a Suby, and went and out a 20k car on tick when they couldnt afford it, debt goes bad, dealer ends up 15k out of pocket, some sap buys the debt cheap, and all you have done, is let the muppet off the hook for over-extending themselves financially, and they get away scot free - since the bad debt will show up as paid off, and the dealer is still out of pocket.

[mashman]

ok, Ill bite.
while i agree its a great thing for the states, it is a little different here. people can go broke in the USA from breaking a leg, or and arm or whatever, we have a healthcare system in NZ that means we dont have that issue like the states do.
While I think its brilliant that people are helping others out of hardship - i.e. bankruptcy due to medical costs - due to lack of a sufficient healthcare system, it would be stupid to do the same here. Our bankrupt or people who are going bankrupt from bad debts made by choice, e.g. wanting a car they really cant afford and putting it on tick, rather than due to circumstances of need, i.e. selling everything they own to pay to get their broken leg fixed before it gets an infection that kills them, because the state/government doesnt cover that shit.

My wife is from the US. She simply would not get healthcare cover over there. The USA allows companies to simply deny you coverage, so say you had a serious illness as a child, but overcame it. They can say no, you are too much risk, we will not cover you, ever, end of story. So you go through life without cover. If you break a bone later in life through something totally unrelated to your previous illness, you're fucked if you dont have the money to pay for the healthcare.

This issue has been dealt with somewhat though by the coming introduction of 'Obamacare', which, in it's simplest terms means that insurance companies CAN NOT deny you health insurance - so people like those discussed int he article will now be able to get cover if they were previously unable to

They may be in the US but they are still human beings that just need to be fixed. The bit you quoted was in reference to getting rid of the financial aspect of healthcare/education etc... entirely so that such things don't happen any more.

I "understand" how their system works and think it's disgusting that you can't be repaired without sending yourself into bankruptcy. Of course that's business for ya. I remember the day I went to get my knee sorted. They had taken xrays of both of my knees and the surgeon came over and asked me which leg was to be operated on. Odd as he was the one I had consulted with. Anyway, he went on to explain that I would have been denied "cover" if it had been my left leg, due to having cracked my knee cap (healed in a week) some 20 years earlier. I guess I just got lucky. My boss, at the time, had to fight to have the same surgery because he did TKD and was likely to sustain injuries. I also remember some years back, when the ACC shit was hot to trot, that a few members had mentioned that they wouldn't be covered because of recurring/previous injury and getting private cover was cost prohibitive. To that end it looks like there are shades of the US system in the NZ system and I hope my left knee holds out.



its not fucked up - bad debts are sold regularly at below what is owed - the company that sells the debt is still losing money - if you were to instigate thet same thing in good old enzed, the people getting off the hook would be muppets who wanted a Skyline or a Suby, and went and out a 20k car on tick when they couldnt afford it, debt goes bad, dealer ends up 15k out of pocket, some sap buys the debt cheap, and all you have done, is let the muppet off the hook for over-extending themselves financially, and they get away scot free - since the bad debt will show up as paid off, and the dealer is still out of pocket.

It's business not personal right? Paint it any colour you like, it's still fucked up irrespective of wether people put themselves into that position or not. You should perform better background checks if you expect to get the money back that you decided to lend out. Perhaps they could be covered under the Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme to allow for a no risk venture. Or just ditch money entirely and not run the risk of bad debt at all.

[Swoop]

The only "occupy Wall St" to get attention and results, was hurricane Sandy.

[blue rider]

The only "occupy Wall St" to get attention and results, was hurricane Sandy.

snark aside....they are actually doing stuff those "occupiers"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/nyregion/where-fema-fell-short-occupy-sandy-was-there.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/11/04/occupy_sandy_hurricane_relief_being_led_by_occupy_ wall_street.html

http://occupywallst.org/

they are being busy......lol

[mashman]

snark aside....they are actually doing stuff those "occupiers"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/nyregion/where-fema-fell-short-occupy-sandy-was-there.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/11/04/occupy_sandy_hurricane_relief_being_led_by_occupy_ wall_street.html

http://occupywallst.org/

they are being busy......lol

Shame we can't be that way towards each other irrespective of circumstance.

[mashman]

Something occurred to me on the throne of ideas this morning. I usually harp on about financial problems never being fixed with financial solutions. Them bastards at Occupy proving otherwise :niceone:. Although if the debt wasn't there is the first place no one would have had to go through the process of being declared bankrupt or being refused healthcare. Praps if Buffet, Gates, Brangelina etc... dropped a few billion/million into the pot they would make a sizeable difference to the lives Occupy are helping. I'd love to ask them why they haven't or even if they had heard about the initiative.

[blue rider]

Something occurred to me on the throne of ideas this morning. I usually harp on about financial problems never being fixed with financial solutions. Them bastards at Occupy proving otherwise :niceone:. Although if the debt wasn't there is the first place no one would have had to go through the process of being declared bankrupt or being refused healthcare. Praps if Buffet, Gates, Brangelina etc... dropped a few billion/million into the pot they would make a sizeable difference to the lives Occupy are helping. I'd love to ask them why they haven't or even if they had heard about the initiative.

ask and post the reply. seriously why not.

[mashman]

ask and post the reply. seriously why not.

I just created a twatter account and did just that. Shit that you have limited characters, but hey. Thanks for my twatter username :yes:

[Akzle]

Although if the debt wasn't there is the first place no one would have had to go through the process of being declared bankrupt or being refused healthcare

...the first rule of fight club, is...

((erase the debt record, we all go back to zero))

[puddytat]

And...make it a hell of a lot harder to acquire new debt.
I think though , that for example if the debt was zeroed out that the average Joe would think "Choice,now what can I buy". Then the economy would surge & we'd be back to raping & pillaging the planet again.:facepalm:

[mashman]

...the first rule of fight club, is...

((erase the debt record, we all go back to zero))

Ignore them and do what you think is right?

or ignore it entirely and move forwards without it as a consideration.

[mashman]

And...make it a hell of a lot harder to acquire new debt.
I think though , that for example if the debt was zeroed out that the average Joe would think "Choice,now what can I buy". Then the economy would surge & we'd be back to raping & pillaging the planet again.:facepalm:

Agreed completely. That is why I can't vote for social credit. If money/value is involved in day to day living in any way shape or form, we'll end up in exactly the same position. I'm all for giving us a shot against mother nature. It's what we've done best so far, but she's making it harder and harder and will likely make it even harder at any given point in time. Why let the politics of economics add to the complexity of dealing with "disaster". We can do better. Ohhhhhhh can we do better.

Sent from my Ipissed

[blue rider]

Agreed completely. That is why I can't vote for social credit. If money/value is involved in day to day living in any way shape or form, we'll end up in exactly the same position. I'm all for giving us a shot against mother nature. It's what we've done best so far, but she's making it harder and harder and will likely make it even harder at any given point in time. Why let the politics of economics add to the complexity of dealing with "disaster". We can do better. Ohhhhhhh can we do better.

Sent from my Ipissed

Credit and loaning money in itself is not the problem. The interest attached to the loan however is. Banks today charge upward to 20?/% interest on loan, credit cards etc. They advertise bigger loans for smaller interrest rates, adjustable rates (this should be a banned practice by now) and so on.... This practice that is ruining a lot of people. And to those that say peeps should have known better, a lot don't know and have never been tought.

If a bank can loan money from the fed or the government at almost 0% interest rate, the the re-loaning of that money should be at the same or just slightly larger rate. But this is not the case.

It is the credit and accumulated credit on loans that kill people.
And all that credit paid to the bank, is not returned to the economy where it is needed, it serves no other purpose that feeding the bottomline of a share holder.
Time to bring back ursury laws.

[Akzle]

Credit and loaning money in itself is not the problem. The interest attached to the loan however is.

actually. it is.

when you get a loan/ mortgage from the bank, they "make" money, based on your corporate assurance/ signature -that you will generate the "money" (debt) and give it to them.

it's not as though they're loaning you money that they have, or anything.

recently found out that a certain bank had a capital worth of 4, but had loaned 63 (billion or million, can't remember)
sounds like a recipe for insolvency, innit?

the ursury/ "interest" you pay, most people view as the cost of servicing the loan. in fact, it isn't, because they took no risk in the first instance.
you took the risk, by acting as a corporate person, to play a corporate game. (that is: private gain or profit)

there is actually NO MONEY in society. yours, mine, anywhere.
a pound sterling used to be just that - a pound of silver.
pop quiz: what is the "value" of sterling silver nowadays?, then newton overvalued gold and bought it in as a "standard" - on the assumption that scarcity gives something inherent worth. then the yanks did a gold snatch (literally confiscated gold of everyone in the country and called it"national reserves" (not dis-similar to "common-wealth")), and since then, "money" has not actually been backed by anything tangible.
the "value" of your/your country's debt ("money") is calculated at an international level by a bunch of scheming jews, based on how many corporate persons are registered on any given landmass, and the assumption that X% of them will be generating revenue (tax) for 50 years of their life - this (your sweat) is traded. legally.
but apparently slavery has been abolished.

look on those pretty bits of paper in your wallet and you'll find the words "legal tender" and "promisary note" - not "money" (and nothing so obvious as "debt")
IT IS WORTH NO MORE THAN THE INK AND PAPER USED TO MAKE IT
it's perceived worth, however, is immeasurable. (by the sum of the damage it's done to people and indeed "society")

so to say "money isn't the problem" is both right and wrong, right in the sense that it doesn't exist, wrong in the sense that you didn't know that, and it's your, as well as the rest of your society's, belief in the debt system that very much IS the problem.

[oldrider]

actually. it is.

when you get a loan/ mortgage from the bank, they "make" money, based on your corporate assurance/ signature -that you will generate the "money" (debt) and give it to them.

it's not as though they're loaning you money that they have, or anything.

recently found out that a certain bank had a capital worth of 4, but had loaned 63 (billion or million, can't remember)
sounds like a recipe for insolvency, innit?

the ursury/ "interest" you pay, most people view as the cost of servicing the loan. in fact, it isn't, because they took no risk in the first instance.
you took the risk, by acting as a corporate person, to play a corporate game. (that is: private gain or profit)

there is actually NO MONEY in society. yours, mine, anywhere.
a pound sterling used to be just that - a pound of silver.
pop quiz: what is the "value" of sterling silver nowadays?, then newton overvalued gold and bought it in as a "standard" - on the assumption that scarcity gives something inherent worth. then the yanks did a gold snatch (literally confiscated gold of everyone in the country and called it"national reserves" (not dis-similar to "common-wealth")), and since then, "money" has not actually been backed by anything tangible.
the "value" of your/your country's debt ("money") is calculated at an international level by a bunch of scheming jews, based on how many corporate persons are registered on any given landmass, and the assumption that X% of them will be generating revenue (tax) for 50 years of their life - this (your sweat) is traded. legally.
but apparently slavery has been abolished.

look on those pretty bits of paper in your wallet and you'll find the words "legal tender" and "promisary note" - not "money" (and nothing so obvious as "debt")
IT IS WORTH NO MORE THAN THE INK AND PAPER USED TO MAKE IT
it's perceived worth, however, is immeasurable. (by the sum of the damage it's done to people and indeed "society")

so to say "money isn't the problem" is both right and wrong, right in the sense that it doesn't exist, wrong in the sense that you didn't know that, and it's your, as well as the rest of your society's, belief in the debt system that very much IS the problem.

Sounds like you have been reading about "Social Credit" as opposed to "Social Debt" ... the funny money system that we are currently enslaved to! :niceone:

That's all it takes ... the stroke of a key board and the "will" to make it happen! Interesting thread! :yes:

[mashman]

Credit and loaning money in itself is not the problem. The interest attached to the loan however is. Banks today charge upward to 20?/% interest on loan, credit cards etc. They advertise bigger loans for smaler interrest rates, adjustable rates (this should be a banned practice by now) and so on.... This practice that is ruining a lot of people. And to those that say peeps should have known better, a lot don't know and have never been toughed.

If a bank can loan money from the fed or the government at almost 0% interest rate, the the re-loaning of that money should be at the same or just slightly larger rate. But this is not the case.

It is the credit and accumulated credit on loans that kill people.
And all that credit paid to the bank, is not returned to the economy where it is needed, it serves no other purpose that feeding the bottomline of a share holder.
Time to bring back ursury laws.

Pretty much similar to the last line of Akzle's post, except I'll go a wee step further. As well as society's belief in the debt system being the problem, I don't see how any other form of transaction medium that has value attached to it, be it barter, trade, time etc... is going to change how society values individuals. For me that's what it's all about. I was told the other night that the Doctor can do the job of a Binman. That may well be the case, but if the Doctor is doing the job of a Binman, who's doing the job of the Doctor? It's the value we put on the effort of an individual that is at the heart of the problem. The moment that we start to believe that one service/product/job is more important than another, to the extent that the people involved in providing the service/product/job are "rewarded" on perceived effort, is the exact same moment that you create a "tiered" system. This instantly means that there will be those who have and those who don't and given that there are individuals, at both ends of the spectrum and inbetween, that will go out of their way to "accumulate" what they want and stop at nothing to get it, we will still end up with the "shit" part of society i.e. crime, death, poverty, poor education, lack of work ethic etc... So irrespective of whether it's Social Credit or 2 apples equals a banana or 100 minutes work equals a loaf of bread, there will always be those who will go out of their way and skew the system again. Whilst a "valueless" mechanism may not be perfect, it'll all but remove the ability for a tiered system to grow.

I struggle to see why value is required in any "transaction" when we're talking about feeding people, educating people, fixing people, all playing a part in "production" etc... Why should some have and some have not based on their perceived contribution? In either system, value or valueless, these exact same people will exist. Punishing them using value does not change them and likely never will. In a valueless society, there is no need to punish them. That punishment punishes the perceived good citizens, that's you and me, ok maybe just me :shifty:. We plough money, tax, into the "system" and leave ourselves with less to "spend" on the basics, maybe some toys etc... Whereas feeding them, housing them, clothing them etc... at no "cost" does not punish the perceived good citizens, even further it removes the need for certain crime... hell we could start to leave our doors open again. Ditch the value, accept the lazy (maybe offer the incentive of travel, dunno) and do what we currently do. The big issues solved and truly moving forwards at break neck speed (not just bigger and better neon lights), building things to last etc... and noone need "financially" suffer because of the actions of others blah blah blah.

[blue rider]

I don't see loaning money, or services as a problem. I have always worked, and have always had money, but sometimes in order to buy a larger items....beryl comes to mind, i might get a loan and pay that one off. To me that is no issue, it is good business practice.

I might also loan money to a friend in hardship, or hand over a bowl of sugar and a couple of eggs to a neighbourgh. I get the loan from my friend paid back and my neighbourg will return the sugar and eggs. But I will not charge interest. and this is were the difference is to me and a bank.

Even in a barter system I might loan seeds in exchange for a later payment of say cucumbers. I can loan my seeds for equal amount of cucumbers, or for an extra ten percent of cucumber.
Any which way we want to call it, loaning or borrowing is not an issue unless the repayment of the loan becomes unfeasable due to excessive interest rates, fees etc.

and Akzle....to much green. :crazy:

[mashman]

I don't see loaning money, or services as a problem. I have always worked, and have always had money, but sometimes in order to buy a larger items....beryl comes to mind, i might get a loan and pay that one off. To me that is no issue, it is good business practice.

I might also loan money to a friend in hardship, or hand over a bowl of sugar and a couple of eggs to a neighbourgh. I get the loan from my friend paid back and my neighbourg will return the sugar and eggs. But I will not charge interest. and this is were the difference is to me and a bank.

Even in a barter system I might loan seeds in exchange for a later payment of say cucumbers. I can loan my seeds for equal amount of cucumbers, or for an extra ten percent of cucumber.
Any which way we want to call it, loaning or borrowing is not an issue unless the repayment of the loan becomes unfeasable due to excessive interest rates, fees etc.

and Akzle....to much green. :crazy:

So you're expecting an interest free loan? In which case why bother having money in the first place?

If your friend/neighbour told you that they would not be paying you back, would you still make the "loan"?

You're adding on a 10% margin because you've given seeds? Or are they just small cucumbers :shifty:... In essence you're expect something back because you gave?

My view. I just gave a guy a half cooked chicken because it looked like he needed it more than me. If I had been hungry, I would have shared it. In either case, I chose to "help", I expect nothing back. similarly when I lend something to a mate, I'd like to get some things back, but if I don't I ain't going to lose any sleep over it if I don't really need it. If I need it, I'll ask for it back.

[Akzle]

The moment that we start to believe that one service/product/job is more important than another,

i'll add to this, what i think a pertinent example.
people would, on a day to day basis, not value a sewerage worker highly. (particularly in a big shitty, like auckland)
BUT, if those men stopped turning up to work, if aucklanders shit didn't go away when they flushed and they actually had to deal with it themselves, the value of sewerage workers would treble overnight.
the "cog in a machine" example comes in, but i think a more natural analogy is required. we are all part of an ecosystem, or unified conscious body, whether we act conscious of it or not, whether we call it god or jah or ganesha, and, as a body is the sum total of all parts, we are all required for it to go good. a body missing a hoof is lame an cannot outrun or evade a predator, a body missing a hand cannot feed the mouth, or tie shoelaces... all parts need to work together for the health of the whole.
society is discombobulated, the whole is not healthy.


(...)
and Akzle....to much green. :crazy:
cool belief. so, who do you bank with? is it one of the sharia compliant banks? a credit union? do they support the open banking resolution? (biggest. fuckup. ever)

if the green offends you so, highlight it, then it turns purple. :D

[Akzle]

You're adding on a 10% margin because you've given seeds? Or are they just small cucumbers :shifty:... In essence you're expect something back because you gave?

similarly when I lend something to a mate, I'd like to get some things back, but if I don't I ain't going to lose any sleep over it if I don't really need it. If I need it, I'll ask for it back.

1) never lend anyone anything unless you're prepared to write off the relationship, or the item in question.

2) actually.. from one seed comes a plant. from one plant comes many cucumbers, from many cucumbers come many more seeds. i think he may have been lining up to charge compound interest based on the capital returns of the investment!

[Akzle]

further it removes the need for certain crime...

actually, i think, without money there'd be exactly 4% crime.
(consider the current crime rate to be 90% and fluctuating, bearng in mind most of it goes unnoticed, unrebutted and with no recourse to the victims/"taxpayers")
a lot of unemployed lawyers, cops, judges and politicians, and idle hands are the devils plaything. so maybe we need to dig a big hole. or send a rocket to the sun.

[Akzle]

Sounds like you have been reading about "Social Credit" as opposed to "Social Debt" ...

i haven't. i skimmed over that when i was recommended to the democrats for social credit party.
i am not, either, for "social credit". while accept a "medium of exchange" can be a useful thing (in a transitional sense), a "store of value" is certainly not, whether it's debt or credit makes no difference

i have read a stack of stuff on a stack of things, money just happens to be bullshit and lawdy lawdy when the populi realise it there'll be some changin done 'round here.

[blue rider]

mashy, really, i know you think your principle is worthy and would/should/could work, if we all gave up our worthy possesions and started sharing and living only on what we need.
however, this according to my experience is not going to work, as there will always be someone who would like to be king at the place of the king.
there will always be someone who will have no issue screwing over yer dear neighbourgh for a farting.

many books have been written about this phenomen and many revolutions have been had, heads have rolled and some got shot, in the end we are back to the system of the biggest one screws the weakest one. I think that was Darwin, also an old bugger.

So when I lend a friend some money, most of the time i do not expect it back, nor the sugar and eggs I give to the lady next door. But I sleep tight in the knowledge that should I need sugar and eggs and maybe a coin, my friend and the lady next door will be there to lend me a hand and a shirt if need be.
No interest charged.

In our current system it is not so much the lending that screws people, it is the usurious interest rates and other from of frivolous charges attached to a loan. This needs to be addressed first and foremost. IF a bank will only pay 1.25% interest on savings, and if a bank only pays 1 - 3 % interest on interbank loaning, how the hell can they justify 17% + interest charges on money the lend to their customers. And where is the governemtn to address this issue?

Peeps will need loans, they will need a car to go to work, heck some might even go in overdraft to pay 200$ monthly bus ticket to go to work. Why the heck should there be a 17% interest charge attached to that overdraft! That is what gets ordinary peeps in trouble.

And unless someone shows me a statistic that shows peeps only getting loans for boats, jewellery and a fake pair of tits, i believe firmly that loans for many is something they only got because they had too.

I exclude myself of that group, cuz i wanted beryl, and well I kind a need her too. but only really cuz i want her.

[oldrider]

Money is not the root of all evil ... the people that control the issue and cancellation of it "are"!

Not the people that do the work, the people who are controlling them ... the real 1%!

[mashman]

i'll add to this, what i think a pertinent example.
people would, on a day to day basis, not value a sewerage worker highly. (particularly in a big shitty, like auckland)
BUT, if those men stopped turning up to work, if aucklanders shit didn't go away when they flushed and they actually had to deal with it themselves, the value of sewerage workers would treble overnight.
the "cog in a machine" example comes in, but i think a more natural analogy is required. we are all part of an ecosystem, or unified conscious body, whether we act conscious of it or not, whether we call it god or jah or ganesha, and, as a body is the sum total of all parts, we are all required for it to go good. a body missing a hoof is lame an cannot outrun or evade a predator, a body missing a hand cannot feed the mouth, or tie shoelaces... all parts need to work together for the health of the whole.
society is discombobulated, the whole is not healthy.

Aye, and both the human with missing bits and the society with bits missing can benefit from lubbly technology.



1) never lend anyone anything unless you're prepared to write off the relationship, or the item in question.

2) actually.. from one seed comes a plant. from one plant comes many cucumbers, from many cucumbers come many more seeds. i think he may have been lining up to charge compound interest based on the capital returns of the investment!

1) very true, the item can get fucked coz as ya say, if I really needed if it would have a GPS tracker and disable the user device attached to it.

2) and you said you weren't an economist.



actually, i think, without money there'd be exactly 4% crime.
(consider the current crime rate to be 90% and fluctuating, bearng in mind most of it goes unnoticed, unrebutted and with no recourse to the victims/"taxpayers")
a lot of unemployed lawyers, cops, judges and politicians, and idle hands are the devils plaything. so maybe we need to dig a big hole. or send a rocket to the sun.

or they could retrain and do something useful for a change?

[mashman]

mashy, really, i know you think your principle is worthy and would/should/could work, if we all gave up our worthy possesions and started sharing and living only on what we need.
however, this according to my experience is not going to work, as there will always be someone who would like to be king at the place of the king.
there will always be someone who will have no issue screwing over yer dear neighbourgh for a farting.

many books have been written about this phenomen and many revolutions have been had, heads have rolled and some got shot, in the end we are back to the system of the biggest one screws the weakest one. I think that was Darwin, also an old bugger.

So when I lend a friend some money, most of the time i do not expect it back, nor the sugar and eggs I give to the lady next door. But I sleep tight in the knowledge that should I need sugar and eggs and maybe a coin, my friend and the lady next door will be there to lend me a hand and a shirt if need be.
No interest charged.

In our current system it is not so much the lending that screws people, it is the usurious interest rates and other from of frivolous charges attached to a loan. This needs to be addressed first and foremost. IF a bank will only pay 1.25% interest on savings, and if a bank only pays 1 - 3 % interest on interbank loaning, how the hell can they justify 17% + interest charges on money the lend to their customers. And where is the governemtn to address this issue?

Peeps will need loans, they will need a car to go to work, heck some might even go in overdraft to pay 200$ monthly bus ticket to go to work. Why the heck should there be a 17% interest charge attached to that overdraft! That is what gets ordinary peeps in trouble.

And unless someone shows me a statistic that shows peeps only getting loans for boats, jewellery and a fake pair of tits, i believe firmly that loans for many is something they only got because they had too.

I exclude myself of that group, cuz i wanted beryl, and well I kind a need her too. but only really cuz i want her.

Why would you have to give up possessions? I'm not John Lennon ya know. I'm not advocating going backwards, just slowing down a bit, building things that last, building things that are upgradeable, doing what needs to be done for society and for fun, giving potential invention and innovation a go because it's useful and not a profit making thing. I agree that there will be those who want want want, but there are now and they'll do anything to get get get. It's not our generation that matters, it's the next generation and you can teach that to be exactly what you want it to be. How many kids know what a VHS is? Get the cash tae fook and they'll not miss it, et voila, one changed society in under 5 years, maybe even sooner. It's very doable.

Thems who have written books that say that it is unachievable are full of shit and are devoid of any form of vision. Perhaps they didn't take the time to research their chosen subject matter with human beings. Some people get it because they already understand it, some open minded people deny that it is possible and after a short time answering the questions grasp the concept and would happily sign up, some closed minded people dismiss the idea out of hand because they are inherently negative people, some people believe that they are better than most people, some people claim that human nature won;t allow it :killingme (my fave argument that has ultimate fail written all over it) etc... Not one can put up a valid argument for having a financial system that can't be blown out of the water in under 20 seconds. Seriously, try taking "my" position in a discussion and you'll be surprised how easy it is to convince anyone who displays any form of critical thinking that we can happily live without a financial system without sacrificing lifestyle. It doesn't take a great leap of the imagination, in fact it just takes an agreement. I'd like to see it discussed at a national level and voted on. Am I confident, oh fookin hell yeah. More are open to the idea than are not.

You coulda had your bike for free ya know :msn-wink:.

[mashman]

Money is not the root of all evil ... the people that control the issue and cancellation of it "are"!

Not the people that do the work, the people who are controlling them ... the real 1%!

Removing money removes their power. Keep "money" in any format at all and they will stay exactly where they are.

[blue rider]

..........

You coulda had your bike for free ya know :msn-wink:.

i know i know, ride it like ya stole it, trouble is i ride like a nana :baby:

[Akzle]

or they could retrain and do something useful for a change?

i like rockets.


some people believe that they are better than most people

ME ME ME ME ME ME. i am!

[mashman]

i like rockets.

Oh bloody hell alright then. Perhaps we could send a few to the moon and prepare the way for selling fresh air.

[cc rider]

I feel sick after reading all this wittle wighting... GIVE ME MONEY :shifty:

[oldrider]

GIVE ME MONEY :shifty:

Ask and ye shall receive! (when I grow up, I want to be a sugar daddy, sigh) :blip:

[mashman]

I feel sick after reading all this wittle wighting... GIVE ME MONEY :shifty:

The small print will do that to ya every time :eek: