Organ donor? Doesn't matter, they may just take 'em anyway!

[willytheekid]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7996617/Hospital-stole-my-sons-heart-says-father :crazy:

...poor bloody family, the kids father has been fighting this for nearly 25yrs!!

[pzkpfw]

Yeah. Some dodgy stuff may or may not have occurred, but get over it.

This ...


He complained about his son being mutilated by the autopsy, and said the absence of his heart had deprived his family of "an opportunity to properly grieve and to farewell their son in circumstances of dignity".

... is his personal opinion, but really I think he's just transferring the grief over the loss of his Son. If everybody felt this way, there'd be no transplants. Which would piss off those who need the bits.

When I go, they can take whatever they need off my body, and use the rest for scientific experiments or training medical students. It's all for the good. As long as done with respect, the same goes for my kids. I'd rather their death gives some use to someone.

And that's the main thing in the case in the paper today: "As long as done with respect". It seems there's some questions to be answered.


I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation.

Absolutely!

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah. Some dodgy stuff may or may not have occurred, but get over it.


I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation.

Yup - maybe it was less than ideal but it was 25 years ago ffs....

I kinds thought is this really front page news?

[Fast Eddie]

donor or not, think it is kinda wierd if u specify to NOT donate that they would just go harvest your organs anyway.. thought maybe that would happen in shady countries not kiwiland.

if u chuck donor on ur license, they may grab all your good organs, but they also can give u to med students just to play with n cut open.. no thanks to that!

[RDJ]

I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation. Absolutely!

+1. It's interesting how so many people who for cultural or religious reasons profess to be unable to donate - when crunch time comes, expect and occasionally demand to receive organs from those that are willing to help. Seen that many times...

[pzkpfw]

... but they also can give u to med students just to play with n cut open.. no thanks to that!

They gotta learn somehow. One day it might be you they're cutting open to fix something.


Bit of a stink in the UK right now. Apparently they shoot pigs, then get military doctors to work on them. It's how they learn (practice) to deal with troops who've been wounded in combat. They can't do it all from textbooks.

[willytheekid]

Absolutely!


Yeah. Some dodgy stuff may or may not have occurred, but get over it.

I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation.


+1. It's interesting how so many people who for cultural or religious reasons profess to be unable to donate - when crunch time comes, expect and occasionally demand to receive organs from those that are willing to help. Seen that many times...


...So what if they just "ignored" my RIGHT! not to be a donor, and just "helped themselves" to my body parts to fix you up after the "removing your head from your own arse operation" went wrong....and THEN they found out, I CAN'T actually donate due to being riddled with CANCER!!...and now your fucked!!.....you'd be cool aye...they where just speeding shit up!....you'll just have to "get over it"...aye!:motu:

Im all for supporting organ donating(always was one till the cancer)...but just helping yourself?...and trying to cover shit up?....no fucking way!

[Paul in NZ]

In the over all scheme of things its not the end of the world but I can appreciate that others don't feel that way.

There is also a considerable delay from the 1987 accident to the 2002/2005 period when he started making inquires. It just seems like there are a few inconsistencies in this story.

As a heavy user of the health system I can so the mistakes are definitely made. Sometimes with fatal consequences but very seldom (given the volumes of work) ever deliberately or through incompetence. I have no doubt someone got excited over doing something that was then very new and exciting and may have crossed the line.

However, in this case I can't see much to be gained by beating this drum any longer. I don't think there is systematic abuse of this - its just something that happened. A long time ago....

[Crasherfromwayback]

...So what if they just "ignored" my RIGHT! not to be a donor, and just "helped themselves" to my body parts to fix you up after the "removing your head from your own arse operation" went wrong....and THEN they found out, I CAN'T actually donate due to being riddled with CANCER!!...and now your fucked!!.....you'd be cool aye...they where just speeding shit up!....you'll just have to "get over it"...aye!:motu:

Im all for supporting organ donating(always was one till the cancer)...but just helping yourself?...and trying to cover shit up?....no fucking way!

Think you've misunderstood my 'absolutely' mate.

[pzkpfw]

I wonder if anyone has asked the 16 year old (in 1987) girl who got the valve, what she thinks about it all?

[willytheekid]

Think you've misunderstood my 'absolutely' mate.

"I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation" - 'absolutely'

Nope...I dun got it, and I refuse to be a donor!...just in case they make another fuck up and just "help themselves" and give some poor sod my organs and my death sentance!
...I just think some folk are missing the point mate...they broke the law!, they stole organs!
But worst of all...that poor family walked in to see there dead child left covered in blood and missing his heart!, they where given no time to grieve and the hospital made no effort to even "ask**" the parents if they could have his organs now he's "done with them"...they just took!...and then tried to lie...for 25yrs!!

**(ALOT of people are talked into organ donating after there loved ones are dead...and after they have reached "closure"...and most do it once they realise there loss, could save another!)

There are VERY strick rules in hospitals etc for VERY good reasons...and this story (25yrs on or not), highlights why!

[Crasherfromwayback]

"I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation" - 'absolutely'

!

And I absolutely agree if you're not a donor...you have no right whatsoever to be donated an organ from someone that's been generous enough to donate. Why the fuck should you?

And it was a fucking long time ago mate. Systems and things have changed since then. A friend of mine that passed away 10 years ago made a huge difference to a lot of other people's lives by being a donor. What good are they to you anyway mate?

[Banditbandit]

Seen this sort of stuff before .. many Polynesian families (Māori and Pasifika) have fought the hospitals who kept body parts. It's not part of our culteue - all bodies MUST be buried with all parts ... it is offensive to us that hospitals and other doctors keep body parts after death ...




I think people who refuse to be donors, ought to sign something to say they'd never receive a donation.


Absolutely!

I agree - and many Māori families will not accept donations either - that donated body part should have been buried when the person was buried. The person recieving the donation is participating in, and perpetuating, a wrong ..


+1. It's interesting how so many people who for cultural or religious reasons profess to be unable to donate - when crunch time comes, expect and occasionally demand to receive organs from those that are willing to help. Seen that many times...


Yes - it is also amazing how many people also do not accept transplants. Transplants and even blood transfusions are not allowed by Jehovah Witnesses - and they are prepared to die before recieving a blood transfusion - which is a simple and easy procedure that could save their lives.

While I disagree with them, I admire the strength of their belief ... How many here wouild be strong enough to hold on to a belief at the expense of their own lives? If/When the crunch comes, I suspect very very few ..

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Transplants and even blood transfusions are not allowed by Jehovah Witnesses - and they are prepared to die before recieving a blood transfusion - which is a simple and easy procedure that could save their lives.

While I disagree with them, I admire the strength of their belief ... How many here wouild be strong enough to hold on to a belief at the expense of their own lives? If/When the crunch comes, I suspect very very few ..

The problem I have with that...is when they force it upon their children and expect them to die for their beliefs. But best we don't go there!

[willytheekid]

And I absolutely agree if you're not a donor...you have no right whatsoever to be donated an organ from someone that's been generous enough to donate. Why the fuck should you?

And it was a fucking long time ago mate. Systems and things have changed since then. A friend of mine that passed away 10 years ago made a huge difference to a lot of other people's lives by being a donor. What good are they to you anyway mate?

Harsh!
...I was a donor, and a regular for giving blood etc, but now I can't donate anything due to cancer...but by your logic, Im now not allowed to recieve a donor organ?..cos I didn't give one in return?...what organ have YOU donated that gives you the moral high ground?

My issue with the story was the lying and the manner in which they have dealt with this case...and yes, things have changed (thank god!), so hopefully we don't see this kind of thing again.

I am a firm believer in donating blood and organs etc, as you said, the effect it can have on others once you have gone is amazing!, I personally think it should be compulsory to contribute in that regard....the amount of lives just giving blood saves is truely amazing!

For the record...I wish I could still be a donor :weep:...but that is sadly out of my control now. (except for my hair!!...I have signed up for the hair for cancer cause....If I die, they get my locks:niceone:...it was all I could contribute)

[Banditbandit]

Harsh!
...I was a donor, and a regular for giving blood etc, but now I can't donate anything due to cancer...but by your logic, Im now not allowed to recieve a donor organ?..cos I didn't give one in return?...what organ have YOU donated that gives you the moral high ground?




True .. they will not let me donate blood at all - ever ... at one point I thought if I wait 10 years I will be able to donate - but then they changed the rules, and now when they ask "Have you ever used intravenous drugs?" And I say yes, they say "No thank you ..." (It's been 34 years since I shot up ...)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Harsh!
...I was a donor, and a regular for giving blood etc, but now I can't donate anything due to cancer...but by your logic, Im now not allowed to recieve a donor organ?..cos I didn't give one in return?...what organ have YOU donated that gives you the moral high ground?



No. You can have special dispensation for being one in the past but not being able to now!

[willytheekid]

....You can have special..
:eek5:
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6850/bishmf7ak4.jpg
...:crazy:...wait..."reading"....AHHHH:confused:

...THANKS MATE!:niceone: (I should think so too...the amount of times they hit the bloody bone and didn't give me a friggin cookie!!):killingme

[KiwiPhoenix]

Ok, I wasn't sure if I should post about this, this is a subject that is very close to me but .....

I have unfortunately been in the same circumstances as that father. My daughter died back in 1998 (in Scotland) and we later learned that her brain had been taken without our consent (about 6 months later when we found out) yes, at first we were extremely angry and yes we could have taken them to court etc but what is the point? Your loved one is gone. There is nothing else you can do. It's not like we could have put her brain back and she would be all okay. Due to the nature of her death we weren't allowed to donate her organs but we would have happily done so if asked.

The question that came into my mind was, how does it stop you from properly grieving? It doesn't, grief is grief! The death of a child is one of the hardest things to live through, but you get through it! Do I feel robbed that I didn't cremate her whole? No I don't. The fact that she died fullstop was enough!

My own personal opinion on the matter is that yes, whilst the father has every right to be angry and everyone deals with grief in their own way, and yes, use that power to make sure that it doesn't happen to someone else, there are lots of lessons to be learned from situations like this but look at the positive that came from this as well..... that boy's heart valve helped save a young girl. Isn't the point!

The truth is I know that if I ever found out that an organ from my daughter had been used to save the life of another person, whilst at first yes, I would be angry, I would also be very happy too. To be able to help another family and save them from the pain I feel, it's worth it!

[Crasherfromwayback]

The truth is I know that if I ever found out that an organ from my daughter had been used to save the life of another person, whilst at first yes, I would be angry, I would also be very happy too. To be able to help another family and save them from the pain I feel, it's worth it!

Sorry to hear of your loss. Nice way to look at things after the fact considering!

[KiwiPhoenix]

Sorry to hear of your loss. Nice way to look at things after the fact considering!

Thank you!

[F5 Dave]

I always figured glad to be a Donor, if I'm no longer using the bits they could be used to hopefully save someone else.

Until I read the Kim Newcombe book. Yes it was in the UK in the 70s, but it seemed they deliberately left him to die after receiving permission to use his organs if it came to it. I'd want some sort of guarantee that, human nature being what it is, someone with a perception that Motorcyclists are all just organ donors on wheels, doesn't make a choice not to try as hard as damn possible to save my life 1st.

Couldn't happen in NZ in 2012? Maybe, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it.

[RDJ]

I always figured glad to be a Donor, if I'm no longer using the bits they could be used to hopefully save someone else.

Until I read the Kim Newcombe book. Yes it was in the UK in the 70s, but it seemed they deliberately left him to die after receiving permission to use his organs if it came to it. I'd want some sort of guarantee that, human nature being what it is, someone with a perception that Motorcyclists are all just organ donors on wheels, doesn't make a choice not to try as hard as damn possible to save my life 1st.

Couldn't happen in NZ in 2012? Maybe, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it.

An internet posting can't reassure you; all I can say on behalf of those of us who resuscitate, is that we don't know whether or not any patient is a donor; we don't ask, we don't even think about it when we start the ABC's.

[Road kill]

In the over all scheme of things its not the end of the world but I can appreciate that others don't feel that way.

There is also a considerable delay from the 1987 accident to the 2002/2005 period when he started making inquires. It just seems like there are a few inconsistencies in this story.

As a heavy user of the health system I can so the mistakes are definitely made. Sometimes with fatal consequences but very seldom (given the volumes of work) ever deliberately or through incompetence. I have no doubt someone got excited over doing something that was then very new and exciting and may have crossed the line.

However, in this case I can't see much to be gained by beating this drum any longer. I don't think there is systematic abuse of this - its just something that happened. A long time ago....

Next comes the demand for compensation,,$$$$$$$$.

This is NZ after all:rolleyes:

[caseye]

I'm a registered organ donor.
I'm a blood donor.
But if the barstards took anything from one of my girls without our consent they'd be the very next organ donor!
Seems to me that the passing of time makes it easier to forget it happened! Na.
Seems also that there are plenty out there who'd be happy if it was their loved one getting the organ but like me would kill if one was taken from one of ours without our consent.
For me the argument is academic, if the wife and I suffered the fate of losing one of our girls and if their bits could help save another then it'd be done, no question.
The issue here is the retrospective permission aspect and the lying that the hospital did to keep this under wraps for so long.
Us ordinary people have a lot of bureaucracy to get through to even get heard,let alone into a court room where "justice' is supposed to be done.
Willy me ol mate, you never cease to surprise me, no right minded idiot is gunna want yer hair! LOL, on you for doing all you can under trying circumstances.
Cleaned that bewdiful bike lately?

[BMWST?]

I'm a registered organ donor.
I'm a blood donor.
But if the barstards took anything from one of my girls without our consent they'd be the very next organ donor!
Seems to me that the passing of time makes it easier to forget it happened! Na.
Seems also that there are plenty out there who'd be happy if it was their loved one getting the organ but like me would kill if one was taken from one of ours without our consent.
For me the argument is academic, if the wife and I suffered the fate of losing one of our girls and if their bits could help save another then it'd be done, no question.
The issue here is the retrospective permission aspect and the lying that the hospital did to keep this under wraps for so long.
Us ordinary people have a lot of bureaucracy to get through to even get heard,let alone into a court room where "justice' is supposed to be done.
Willy me ol mate, you never cease to surprise me, no right minded idiot is gunna want yer hair! LOL, on you for doing all you can under trying circumstances.
Cleaned that bewdiful bike lately?


i think there are some very basic misunderstandings here...as far as i can see only the heart valves were taken...not the whole heart or any other organs..if that makes any difference

[Bald Eagle]

However, in this case I can't see much to be gained by beating this drum any longer. I don't think there is systematic abuse of this - its just something that happened. A long time ago....

bit like Te Treaty, and he wants Legal Aid too

[caseye]

i think there are some very basic misunderstandings here...as far as i can see only the heart valves were taken...not the whole heart or any other organs..if that makes any difference

No, I got that part loud and clear. Let me ask you what/how you'd react after the event, machine off earlier than you'd asked. So you weren't there while they removed your loved ones heart. you arrive to find your loved one under blood stained clothes ,minus their heart and no longer breathing and there's Mr Hyde with a consent form on a clip board wanting you to give permission to remove, the heart so another hospital can have a small bit of it.
How big the bit is, isn't the issue.
Now, time or how other people feel about the removal doesn't matter, what matters is that a govt department lied to a parent about removing organs without their permission, no one has yet said that the parent/s would not have given permission, that issue was nicely side stepped by simply taking it!:weep: