Ranting about NZ retailers

[AllanB]

Yes an old chestnut but being close to Christmas I'm watching my bucks. kids to buy for and wine to consume, sometimes in the reverse (hell I live in CHCH!).

Each year there is one pressy to myself around this time of year. As you will no doubt understand each year it is motorcycle related - hell has been for decades so I consider it a tradition and it would be rude to ignore tradition (like sex on birthdays and public holidays).

As I am due for a brake fluid change on the Hornet I figured stainless steel lines as well. To their credit the NZ supplier I contacted was very quick to respond. Unfortunately their price for front/rear lines was NZ$80 more than ordering them direct from the maker in England (yes including shipping). And fark me the UK ordered ones arrived in 5 days! Darn purdy they are too. So as much as I'd like to support my NZ cussie - at this time of year $80 will by me a lot of good quaility wine.

So I thinking I've 'saved $80 - why not repack the Yoshis too? I contact three NZ suppliers of Yoshi systems and one TM advertiser for the price of a repack kit. Two weeks later no reply ......... I can order a repack kit from the States - it will be here in a week. I've just e-mailed the three and the TM dealer that I'm taking my $ off-shore.

So sorry NZ, as much as I'd like too support you it ain't happening from my bank account this Christmas.

PS I did drop some bucks at my local for coolant and plugs recently.

PSS I also got some fancy full synth oil (OK it was on special) but I'll admit I'm going to use a oil filter I got from the USA some time back when I ordered some parts as Honda parts are 30 - 60% cheaper in the USA. Seriously up to 60% for a genuine Factory part. I can land a air filter from America cheaper than getting one from my local dealer. Something is wrong here.

Thats all, I blame the wine I have consumed tonight, I could afford a good bottle this week due to the $80 saving on my SS brake lines.

[Sable]

I know exactly what you mean, when I needed new airbox to carb rubbers for my FZR1000 the local Yamaha dealer quoted me something stupid like $400, ordered them from the states with something else and paid ~$200NZ for the lot.

[Brian d marge]

As I keep bleating on , the money isnt in spares , ( it can be if you are a niche product and flexible such as our own Robert Taylor ) , with the internet and shipping these days unless its on the shelf at a similar price why would you bother

Motorcycling is a hobby entertainment and the sooner dealers understand this the better ( and organise events ) , and no that doesn’t mean a few scraggy snarlers and a bit of dry bread outside the front of the shop

tis the way the world is moving

Stephen

[kevie]

I too buy a few items stateside .....

I wanted a new starter motor and Yamaha NZ quoted me $1,400 plus freight from Japan, I sourced one brand new in USA and landed it here for NZ$218 in just 10 days,

Also ordered some airgun parts Stateside as the NZ shops refused to sell the parts to me.

I wanted 2 rubber 'o' rings for the Yammie carbs too and they were $20 EACH told them I wanna pay for the rings not the fancy Yamaha label on the plastic bag.... they told me they were that price cos they were a special rubber and special size.... went to the o'ring manufacturer in Palmerston North and got them for 35 cents each, and they said they were a standard off the shelf item .

NZ dealers need to rethink not only what they charge .... (and what they say to try to bullshit the customer) ......one said "oh but theres a huge tax on automotive parts ...... compare the prices, and the tax must be ginormous ..... or are they just ripping us poor customers off.

Looked at a new indicator for the Boulevard last week ...... Suzuki shop locally $146 and none in the country ...... on the net .... NZ$47 and available IN AUCKLAND...... shops comment >>>"Oh but they will be aftermarket" my reply >>>"Who gives a F%#k they look and work the same"

[jellywrestler]

I too buy a few items stateside .....

I wanted a new starter motor and Yamaha NZ quoted me $1,400 plus freight from Japan, I sourced one brand new in USA and landed it here for NZ$218 in just 10 days,



i don't beleive you're comparing apples with apples here
bet you two bob versus a hairy knob of goat shit that the magical $218 was an aftermarket one and of course the yamaha dealer would've been quoting you for a genuine factory part

[imdying]

i don't beleive you're comparing apples with apples here
bet you two bob versus a hairy knob of goat shit that the magical $218 was an aftermarket one and of course the yamaha dealer would've been quoting you for a genuine factory partWell I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Blue Wing can try and charge me $630 for a rear seat cowl that the states had for me for $163 delivered (yep, NZD, both OEM, 8 page Honda instruction manual to fit it and all), then I'd believe that.

I realise that it's probably not that you don't believe him, it's more that you simply can't believe that would happen. Well, believe it buddy; NZ is not the place to buy OEM spares.

[Katman]

Well I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Blue Wing can try and charge me $630 for a rear seat cowl that the states had for me for $163 delivered (yep, NZD, both OEM, 8 page Honda instruction manual to fit it and all), then I'd believe that.



What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.

[Grumph]

What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.

Maybe so - if the retailer is selling for the wholesalers recommended retail price....

For many years however at least in the ChCh area retailers have been applying a loading of up to another 40% over recommended retail.
i have no reason to think it's different elsewhere in NZ.

Personal experience working for a very small sub agency in ChCh some years back, we were told we'd do a lot of farm market bits - very little road. By selling for recommended retail and thus undercutting the main agent the shop topped parts sales for that brand in NZ for 2 years running....no longer an agency for that brand obviously....Oh and most of our sales were road market.

[bogan]

What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.

But surely the only way for bluewing to cop it and not the retailer is if the retailer deals with somebody else? Or do you just expect consumers to give half what they save by going overseas to the retailer as charity?

Bottom line, consumers aren't going to do shit about bluewing's price gouging other than find other channels, if retailers want to keep those customers it's up to them to get the prices changed.

[Katman]

But surely the only way for bluewing to cop it and not the retailer is if the retailer deals with somebody else?

And lose their contract to sell new Hondas?

I don't think you understand how the motor vehicle industry in New Zealand works.

[bogan]

And lose their contract to sell new Hondas?

I don't think you understand how the motor vehicle industry in New Zealand works.

I don't need to, its simple market economics, if there is a link in the supply chain that isn't competitive you need to re-negotiate or replace it with a competitor. Until you do one of those things you'll be losing business to overseas companies.

[carburator]

it pays to shop around, no longer are we limited to the local merchants who frankly
in my neck of the woods are shit..

one company im dealing with at the moment (NZ) frankly if i could go to the wholesaler/ supplier
direact i would as the retailer is an ass..

trademe is a source of intertainment at the moment, yes made in china and whatever badge/ label
you want on it.

The blue collar NZ dollar is shrinking, peaple these days are watching what they spend and where..

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yes an old chestnut but being close to Christmas I'm watching my bucks. kids to buy for and wine to consume, sometimes in the reverse (hell I live in CHCH!).


kids to consume and wine to buy for?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Y

Thats all, I blame the wine I have consumed tonight, I could afford a good bottle this week due to the $80 saving on my SS brake lines.

A customer is NEVER wrong to take a better deal. Simple as that.

[White trash]

I too buy a few items stateside .....

I wanted a new starter motor and Yamaha NZ quoted me $1,400 plus freight from Japan, I sourced one brand new in USA and landed it here for NZ$218 in just 10 days,




i don't beleive you're comparing apples with apples here
bet you two bob versus a hairy knob of goat shit that the magical $218 was an aftermarket one and of course the yamaha dealer would've been quoting you for a genuine factory part

I wouldn't mind knowing what year and model bike this was to fit. An extremely possible explanation is that the part you got ex USA was a NOS part, sitting on a shelf for many years until the dealer simply wanted it gone at whatever cost. A starter motor purchased 20 years ago will owe a whole lot less than one ordered from the factory today.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.

fine in theory and completely unworkable in practice: customers have no relationship with Blue Wing. And of course if you try and establish one they tell you to get fucked, if they even respond. I am still waiting for a response to my query about the availablility and pricing for a CB1100F (which they filmed the fucking commercial for in NZ!)

a discussion I had with someone in the industry was along the lines of "Honda own the farmbike and utility bike market in this country, thats where there profits are, they only sell the other stuff cos they have to"

[HenryDorsetCase]

And lose their contract to sell new Hondas?

I don't think you understand how the motor vehicle industry in New Zealand works.

the same way it has since the 1950's?

maybe thats actually the problem?

[imdying]

What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.My avenue to Blue Wing is through my dealer. It is in my interests for all the Honda dealers to go broke, I don't see any other way the message will get through. Blue Wing won't sell many bikes without a dealer network. I could give two craps if I need to import my new bike myself, it's cheaper and there's NZ companies in the USA that specialise in just that.

[Disco Dan]

How do you get around paying duty on it then???? :eek5:

I ordered about $1200 worth of brand new parts for a classic mini a few months back (would have cost $2500-3000 from local) - Got a phone call from customs to say I had to pay duty tax before they would release it. From memory I think the duty tax was something in the range of $300-$400. Still worked out cheaper - but only flipping just.

I was told that if you can buy a part in NZ but you choose to buy it overseas then they charge you duty tax?

[scott411]

How do you get around paying duty on it then???? :eek5:

I ordered about $1200 worth of brand new parts for a classic mini a few months back (would have cost $2500-3000 from local) - Got a phone call from customs to say I had to pay duty tax before they would release it. From memory I think the duty tax was something in the range of $300-$400. Still worked out cheaper - but only flipping just.

I was told that if you can buy a part in NZ but you choose to buy it overseas then they charge you duty tax?

there are some things with Duty (clothing is one, did not think car parts were tho), but most of the time you get charged GST, the same as if you were buying it off a NZ retailer (15%)

[Disco Dan]

there are some things with Duty (clothing is one, did not think car parts were tho), but most of the time you get charged GST, the same as if you were buying it off a NZ retailer (15%)

Well the box had "MINI SPARES.CO.UK" in huge red writing all over it. Whenever I have ordered off them it never gets through customs without me getting a call to pay duty.

[James Deuce]

There's a Nelson based crowd who I get seals and bushes and oil filters from.

I've just made them sound like like a sex toys shop.

Really well stocked, good range and stuff turns up very quickly.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=3508279

Just like overseas but local.

[HenryDorsetCase]

How do you get around paying duty on it then???? :eek5:

I ordered about $1200 worth of brand new parts for a classic mini a few months back (would have cost $2500-3000 from local) - Got a phone call from customs to say I had to pay duty tax before they would release it. From memory I think the duty tax was something in the range of $300-$400. Still worked out cheaper - but only flipping just.

I was told that if you can buy a part in NZ but you choose to buy it overseas then they charge you duty tax?

most of my stuff is under the magic $400. THe helmet I bought last month hit my card at $600 odd NZ and I got dinged $118 in GST and biosecurity and all that bullshit.

like everything, do the sums.

THey will have sent you a detailed invoice for what they charged you: I dont think (but am not certain) that you were charged "duty" i.e. import duty: I dont think a duty applies to motor vehicle parts (but am not certain). What you were probably charged was something along the lines of a biosecurity levy (aka paying to have your package sniffed by a beagle - so, money well spent) then GST on that levy (tax on a tax: awesome.) then GST on the landed cost including that. But $3-400 sounds a bit steep: the GST on $1200 NZD is only $180 after all): I just shredded my invoice otherwise I would have detailed it out.

by the way if you bought parts that were $2500 here for a landed cost to you of "$1600 ($1200 plus $400) then you have made a significant saving, far more than "only flipping just"

[imdying]

How do you get around paying duty on it then???? :eek5:You don't, you pay it; but there is no duty on car parts, only GST.


I ordered about $1200 worth of brand new parts for a classic mini a few months back (would have cost $2500-3000 from local) - Got a phone call from customs to say I had to pay duty tax before they would release it. From memory I think the duty tax was something in the range of $300-$400. Still worked out cheaper - but only flipping just.2500 - (1200+400) = 900, and this is only just? I'll take your $900 if it's that insignificant.


I was told that if you can buy a part in NZ but you choose to buy it overseas then they charge you duty tax?You've been talking to an idiot... how the hell would Customs know which parts could or could not be obtained in NZ? The charges for private importers are all laid out clearly on their website, go look.

[Katman]

My avenue to Blue Wing is through my dealer. It is in my interests for all the Honda dealers to go broke, I don't see any other way the message will get through. Blue Wing won't sell many bikes without a dealer network. I could give two craps if I need to import my new bike myself, it's cheaper and there's NZ companies in the USA that specialise in just that.

Actually, I'm not too concerned about the dealers either. Precisely why I never intend to align myself with any one brand.

If all the dealers go bust it would work considerably in my favour.

There would be a lot of boo-hooing going on here though when there's no bike shops to go kick tyres in.

[Road kill]

Two weeks ago I was shopping for some dive gear and found "on line" a good deal at a local shop which is part of a large chain.

Rang them an was told "yes we have several pairs in stock.

So dropped in the next day to find that even though they were still listed as being in stock "there were none on the shelf.

No worries I'm heading into the city tomorrow so I'll pick them up at your Manukau store.

Next day I walk into that branch and find the price has gone up 30% over night.

I ask to see their web site and the things are still listed at the original price so I push for that "but she ain't budging.

So I tell her to shove it an I'm never shopping here again "of course she couldn't give a crap as she actually is one of the brain dead shop flunky types just holding out for a job at KFC.

Anyway,that shop has this week advertised all their stock at 25% off for the xmas period "so there still going to be 5% up on two weeks ago.

When I went to a different store and told them what had happened they just said "that chain of shops does that every year.

The shop that messed me over is an NZ based chain that have a reputation for this sort of thing "REBEL SPORTS".

The shop I ended up buying from "FCO" are an Australian based chain.

It makes it hard to support locals when their such obvious cheats.

[Bassmatt]

When I went to a different store and told them what had happened they just said "that chain of shops does that every year.



Well they would say that wouldn't they? Did you expect they would tell you how wonderful thier competitors are?

[Robert Taylor]

How do you get around paying duty on it then???? :eek5:

I ordered about $1200 worth of brand new parts for a classic mini a few months back (would have cost $2500-3000 from local) - Got a phone call from customs to say I had to pay duty tax before they would release it. From memory I think the duty tax was something in the range of $300-$400. Still worked out cheaper - but only flipping just.

I was told that if you can buy a part in NZ but you choose to buy it overseas then they charge you duty tax?

Yes youve bought up an important point, often ( but not always ) a high percentage of the difference is the fact so much stuff is coming in without attracting clearance charges and gst on the value of the goods .
Distributors / retailers have to pay all of these charges so why should it be any different for Joe Bloggs???????????????????????????
There was an interesting article in the newspapers a week or so back. In Australia this problem is also rampant and many retailers are going to the wall there ( aside from that horror woman Gillard exacerbating that ). They just cannot compete with many products from overseas due to many factors including a very strong Aussie dollar and the threshold for Australian customs to become interested in privately imported goods is around $800 ( dingo dollars ) Lobbying from the retail sector there has got the Government seriously considering lowering the threshold to just $30. How workable that will be with the sheer volume of incoming freight will be interesting. But such a policy will go some way in helping to redress an inequity that retailers ( who employ ordinary everyday people ) are expected to somehow cope with, without going to the wall.
Please understand that this post is dealing with that inequity and doesnt seek to justify other inequities such as too many people clipping the ticket and dealers / distributors who havent moved with the times.
Clearly the Government here should be looking at also having a near zero threshold and therefore applying clearance charges and gst to pretty much everything that is coming in. One way perhaps would be to legislate that the banks act as revenue and gst collectors for the Government on every overseas transaction, and make this watertight. But there is no one easy solution. BUT, this would give the Government a lot more much needed revenue that it is seriously missing out on and would add a not insgnificant extra level of job security FOR OUR OWN PEOPLE.
Given that in this current inequitable environment many retailers are going to the wall is it any wonder that the unemployment figures are so sobering? This wouldnt fix the problem but would at least go some way to fixing it.
So Disco Dan, you were clearly hoping that you wouldnt get charged clearances and gst and the body language of your account of this indicates you werent that happy about it. TOUGH, welcome to reality for retailers. But if this ''roll of the dice'' was removed and clearances and gst had to be charged regardless you'd think twice about buying offshore if the price difference became small rather than large . Thereby supporting NZ retailers ( at least those who are pro-active to this new environment we are in )AND THE ORDINARY EVERYDAY NEW ZEALANDERS THEY EMPLOY. Just like you in your non retail vocation they have to earn a living somehow.
There are plenty of people on this forum of left of centre persuasion convinced they have the moral high ground on espousing social justice. But where is the social justice in an inequitable regime of taxing imports that clearly is having a significant and negative imoact on the dole queue? Are these same people ( hypocritically ) buying much of their product offshore but at the same time decrying the unemployment figures? Ok, thats a pretty simplistic statement but people who have sat down and thought through all the negative implications will understand where I am coming from.
But also Ive said it before, exchange rate has a major influence. Back in 2000 for a period of time our kiwi dollar was worth only about 41 cents US. Try reworking out the figures on that basis. Also bear in mind that not all products come from North Mexico ( the USA )

[Robert Taylor]

There's a Nelson based crowd who I get seals and bushes and oil filters from.

I've just made them sound like like a sex toys shop.

Really well stocked, good range and stuff turns up very quickly.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=3508279

Just like overseas but local.

What brand are the oil filters? Compared to oem what is the relative percentage of filtration paper used?. What is the filtration capacity in microns? What is the relief valve opening pressure compared to oem and tolerance range?

Back in the late 80s when I worked for the then Yamaha distributor ( who were solidly second in the marketplace ) we purchased a whole load of aftermarket oil filters and had them scientifically analysed. One high profile brand had only 60% of the paper area of oem. Across the samplingrange relief valve opening pressures and filtration capacity were all over the place.
At that time it was a solid indication of how these manufacturers added cheapness

[James Deuce]

What brand are the oil filters? Compared to oem what is the relative percentage of filtration paper used?. What is the filtration capacity in microns? What is the relief valve opening pressure compared to oem and tolerance range?

Back in the late 80s when I worked for the then Yamaha distributor ( who were solidly second in the marketplace ) we purchased a whole load of aftermarket oil filters and had them scientifically analysed. One high profile brand had only 60% of the paper area of oem. Across the samplingrange relief valve opening pressures and filtration capacity were all over the place.
At that time it was a solid indication of how these manufacturers added cheapness

Pyramid Parts is the parent company and these are simple paper cartridges not spin-on. Pyramid do a lot of business in the UK, and were recommended on the XJR owners forum, so I'm confident they are fine. If the state of the one that came out (that was supposedly changed just before I picked up the bike, along with the tar like oil) was anything to go by then the what I've put in is an improvement. I'm not going to get that technical about it, but I'm also not paying what the retailer expected me to pay for an OEM part. If I bought 8 new OEM filters then I could have bought a lower mileage engine from a wrecker.

While I have your attention, I need to visit and do something about these "Ohlins" shocks. They're a bit under sprung. Some '99 R1 forks would be an idea too - one day :). I shall call in the New Year.

[Robert Taylor]

Pyramid Parts is the parent company and these are simple paper cartridges not spin-on. Pyramid do a lot of business in the UK, and were recommended on the XJR owners forum, so I'm confident they are fine. If the state of the one that came out (that was supposedly changed just before I picked up the bike, along with the tar like oil) was anything to go by then the what I've put in is an improvement. I'm not going to get that technical about it, but I'm also not paying what the retailer expected me to pay for an OEM part. If I bought 8 new OEM filters then I could have bought a lower mileage engine from a wrecker.

While I have your attention, I need to visit and do something about these "Ohlins" shocks. They're a bit under sprung. Some '99 R1 forks would be an idea too - one day :). I shall call in the New Year.

Ok, no worries. We are away a lot through January by being ''burdened'' with road race contracts. Do check with me to see if we can make it all work with your timeframe

[James Deuce]

Ok, no worries. We are away a lot through January by being ''burdened'' with road race contracts. Do check with me to see if we can make it all work with your timeframe
Will do. Have a lot of jiggery pokery to do before then, so January will probably turn into March anyway.

[Road kill]

Well they would say that wouldn't they? Did you expect they would tell you how wonderful thier competitors are?

They weren't putting shit on them "they were simply stating what I've since found is a fairly well known thing to a lot of people.

Not that it really matters,but if I do get the feeling somebody is dumping on the "other guys" in any bussiness or individual I deal with "I stop having anything to do with "them" from then on.

At the end of the day all any of us have is our word,so if a persons word is to dump on the competition "it says a lot to somebody that listens to what's really being said in the way that I do.

Here's an example of how I look at it.

I enjoy a bit of Kayak fishing and very resently I bought a new Kayak.

I was looking at two yak's from different manufactures and visted the factory show rooms of both of them.

I also asked the same thing of both them in a round about way,,,,what do you think of so an so ?

The first place I went to admitted the competition make a pretty nice product but also stated their own product was just as good,,plus they would do me a better deal on any extras I wanted.

The second place told me about how much better their boat was and how lacking the other guys boat was,,,and they wouldn't even give me a free fucking tee shirt.

Tell the truth,,,I already knew pretty much all I could about both boats which are both top of the range for their type but I really wanted to know what sort of people I was dealing with.

Obviously I bought off the first place because to me anybody that's honest enough and has enough faith in their own product to simply give credit where it's due are the people I want to deal with,,,plus I got my free tee shirt.:yes:

[AllanB]

There is no customs or GST on items landed under NZ$400 incl shipping. I hear on the radio today that there is a push to have the Government revisit this and have a zero limit. The PM stated it is complicated and unlikely to be revisited soon.


Oil Filters (factory Honda) - NZ$28, USA$9. I have a USA Honda parts supplier who sells on line - ypou look up the same factory parts lists as our dealers do and order you bits. I got multi oil filters last time I was ordering bits. I've ordered parts simply as I was going to modify the original but the USA price is low enough to order a new one to fark around with and keep a stock bit for just in case or eventual resale.

[Flip]

Like most kiwi suppliers the saying "Caveat Emptor" applies to their business practices.

[kevie]

I wouldn't mind knowing what year and model bike this was to fit. An extremely possible explanation is that the part you got ex USA was a NOS part, sitting on a shelf for many years until the dealer simply wanted it gone at whatever cost. A starter motor purchased 20 years ago will owe a whole lot less than one ordered from the factory today.


Its a 1981 Yamaha Virago XV750

No its NOT an old stock off the shelf covered in dust item!!

And YES I figure it is Aftermarket ..... unlike some people I dont have an issue with using Aftermarket items. And at US$92 its dam cheap price compared to the $1400 quoted by NZ retailers

Heres the link to the site I bought it off (and with paypal was sooo easy and convenient to make the purchase)....
http://electricmotorserviceonline.com/NEW-STARTER-YAMAHA-SM-2241-42X-81800-60-00-SM2241-P609740.aspx

well worth the look if you after similar bike parts,

[bogan]

There is no customs or GST on items landed under NZ$400 incl shipping. I hear on the radio today that there is a push to have the Government revisit this and have a zero limit. The PM stated it is complicated and unlikely to be revisited soon.

I think you'll find the limit is not the amount the item is worth, but how much the tax on it is worth. Bike parts and things with just the standard duties works out to be around 400, but things like clothing which has extra duties is a lot lower iirc.

I agree with Robert on this one, ideally every private importer should pay the same gst and import duties that businesses pay, those who don't factor that in, and get 'stung' really have no right to whinge about it.

[nzspokes]

And they still are to lazy to open Sundays......

[_Shrek_]

just payed 300 for a set of inlet manifolds for XT600, so can I get them cheaper from import? & the O-rings on the back where in NZ can I go for them cheers :apint:

[kevie]

just payed 300 for a set of inlet manifolds for XT600, so can I get them cheaper from import? & the O-rings on the back where in NZ can I go for them cheers :apint:

they look the same as my XV750 manifolds.

I got the rubber o-rings from an engineering supplies shop here in Huntly for 50 cents each .... Yamaha charge $20 for them.

[avgas]

I am surprised no one imports cheap Chinese tyres yet. Could make a killing fitting them. :shifty:

[Flip]

I just landed a half doz tyres for my sidecar 3.5x19s. They were only $20 each. I also got 2 new wheels complete with bearings,tubes and tyres for $85 each (ex military surplus).

The NZ supplier wanted $200 for a single sidecar tyre.

The problem here is simple, there are too many fucking fat cunts getting involved in the supply chain. They seem to think that a 100% mark up at each step of their supply chain is perfectly normal and reasonable. They all squeal like fuck when their importer, distributer and retailer mates miss out on a sale when the customer goes directly to the same supplier they do and gets the parts at 20% the ripoff kiwi retail price.

Its not just the MC industry that is ripping the customers off. I have just got a supplier in HK to supply us with brass water valves at 10% the price the local suppler does.

[Timber020]

Oh man dont get me started. Alot of the gear I am after cant be brought online, companies such as stihl and husqvarna have strict no online sales policy. It got a bit embarrasing for husqvarna years back when guys working on the factory floor in sweden were buying saws THEY WERE BUILDING IN SWEDEN and exporting to the US online from the US cheaper than they could get them fresh from where they worked even with the company discount.

One chainsaw carb. here $326 and took a month to get here. I could have got the same unit from USA for $130 and was here in less than a week.

Its cheaper for me to fly to LA, buy 4 small pro chainsaws, fly back than buy 4 here locally. (and I get a few movies, sleep and meals)

Starter motor for stump grinder here is $780, get one landed here from USA for $240

Solanoid for diesel engine $700 is less than $200 in the US.

And the list is a long one, its often not the retailers, is the distributors that are nailing us

[AllanB]

I agree with Robert on this one, ideally every private importer should pay the same gst and import duties that businesses pay, those who don't factor that in, and get 'stung' really have no right to whinge about it.

I've no issue with paying GST on anything I import - it would still be significantly cheaper than local or I would not be importing it. And be in stock, and get here quicker.....

I was after a set of Renthnal road bars - price was not so much the issue as I'd done my research but the colour I wanted was not available in NZ apparently unless I special ordered and waited three months. So I ordered from the UK, turned out I saved a few bucks and the bars arrived within one week of placing my order! The poor bike shop was buggered by their supplier (NZ wholesaler) with zero support offered to him. I'm pretty sure if they had made an effort I could have purchased the bars here within a accepted time frame.

Ditto a HJC helmet - the graphics I wanted were not on the shelf, at $450 helment in NZ. I ordered ex USA - it was on special for US$99 - I could have purchased two!

I'd like to point out here that I have spent $ in NZ - Robert has had my hard earned coin and I am very happy to promote the quick service he provided me.

[Flip]

Ditto a HJC helmet - the graphics I wanted were not on the shelf, at $450 helment in NZ. I ordered ex USA - it was on special for US$99 - I could have purchased two!

GST on the import was only $15, + importer 100%, + distributer 100%. Thats why a $100 lid costs $450 here,its the fat cunts on the gravy train.

[Kickaha]

GST on the import was only $15, + importer 100%, + distributer 100%. Thats why a $100 lid costs $450 here,its the fat cunts on the gravy train.

Maybe in some cases but you're fucking dreaming if you think that's how it works all of the time on everything

[Brian d marge]

As I keep saying, the internet has been round for twenty years odd and in the last few years shopping has taken off, same here in Japan , so its not just a NZ thing
So retailers must change. Supplying a service and or knowledge
Anyone who says things like , can't open on Sundays , or we aren't in the entertainment business, IMHO is dead business walking
Let's look at a typical bike shop,
Carry some ( or can get easily) common spares , oil tyres filter etc
A few bikes for sale
But the real money made in providing some sort of service that allows the customer to persue their hobby such as MX , days , track day, museum runs,,,supporting customers
Anyway no concern of mine as its not my money ....:-) :-) :-) :-)

[mossy1200]

Marilyn Munro caleneders coming from UK if i cant find any locally for the wife.

ECU flash being done in the US because nobody here can do it.

Yoshi tail tidy coming from US because only cheaper ones avaliable here and the yoshi is 4 dollars dearer and has plate lights and plate surrounds also (includes freight).

r-77 yoshi pipes from the local bike shop but they will just import them and pass them on.


We do live in a small market but ill buy local if the price isnt over the top.

[Padmei]

I think you guys have to remember that you aren't just paying for the product when you pay the money over at your local shop. You are paying for the rent, power, office workers, accountants bills, toilet paper for the dunny, advertising,envelopes, stamps etc etc etc

Years ago we bought local cos if you wanted something to fit or didn't know where to get things the loacl shop was the place to go. They made money off you guys & that was how businesses worked. A business HAS to make money off you guys to survive. You could always go to the shop on the other side of town & compare prices or even phone other shops around the country for a better deal.

Nowadays the expenses for running the local shops hasn't dropped however people now can buy from dedicated big overseas vendors with excellent computerised systems in place, massive discounts from suppliers with an enormous international customer base. How can they compete with that?

Businesses HAVE to make money from you to survive- that's from their margins. If they don't they don't last - as we see from time to time. I don't know how this internet shopping thing will evolve but I def think the govt has to charge GST on everything landed here to make it a level playing field for local businesses.

[kevie]

I think you guys have to remember that you aren't just paying for the product when you pay the money over at your local shop. You are paying for the rent, power, office workers, accountants bills, toilet paper for the dunny, advertising,envelopes, stamps etc etc etc
Businesses HAVE to make money from you to survive- that's from their margins. If they don't they don't last - as we see from time to time. I don't know how this internet shopping thing will evolve but I def think the govt has to charge GST on everything landed here to make it a level playing field for local businesses.



All very true BUT the argument the local have wages etc.... aaahhhmmmmm so do the overseas suppliers too!!!!! NZers in a lot of cases are on a limited income, and its not getting any better as wages stall and costs soar... and when you compare things like my Starter motor landed here from USA for NZ$218 and in only 10 days as opposed to an excess of $1400 locally and have to wait 21 days for it..... where do you think Im going to go ???
Also the 2 rubber o'rings at $20 as opposed to shopping around and getting them both for $1.
And an Indicator for the bike at $146 and none in the country as opposed to $47 and delivery in 2-4 days..... what do you do??
All very good them promoting buy local (and I try to when I can)... BUT ... one hased to look at it practically and while the prices are so high, more and more people are going to look at alternatives, especially when most people are on the net now.

We even have a supermarket in town here but we shop groceries in Hamilton A/cheaper and B/Local ones a dickhead.

One asks the question as to Why OEM parts are so dam costly when alternative totally identical units are a mere fraction of the price ...... what are we subsidizing the OEM supplier for??
Actually the unit wasnt identical ... the OEM was 2 brush and the USA one was 4 brush.

[Flip]

I think you guys have to remember that you aren't just paying for the product when you pay the money over at your local shop. You are paying for the rent, power, office workers, accountants bills, toilet paper for the dunny, advertising,envelopes, stamps etc etc etc

If that is a justification for a $100 helm costing $450 business as it was here is buggered. There way too many fat fingers in many of our supply chains. No wonder the cost of living in NZ is so high and the GDP is so low. The thing to remember is the $100 is the retail price over seas. The other $350 is the local slugs punching your ticket.

I also buy a few HD parts from overseas but they are usually only 10-20% cheaper.

I enquired about a windscreen for a sports car here recently, the local robber wanted $5k, I went to the lotus factory who couriered me one inc freight for UK 500 pounds. Thats $4000 for what..........thats a fuck of a lot of loo paper........

[Pixie]

Oh man dont get me started. Alot of the gear I am after cant be brought online, companies such as stihl and husqvarna have strict no online sales policy. It got a bit embarrasing for husqvarna years back when guys working on the factory floor in sweden were buying saws THEY WERE BUILDING IN SWEDEN and exporting to the US online from the US cheaper than they could get them fresh from where they worked even with the company discount.

One chainsaw carb. here $326 and took a month to get here. I could have got the same unit from USA for $130 and was here in less than a week.

Its cheaper for me to fly to LA, buy 4 small pro chainsaws, fly back than buy 4 here locally. (and I get a few movies, sleep and meals)

Starter motor for stump grinder here is $780, get one landed here from USA for $240

Solanoid for diesel engine $700 is less than $200 in the US.

And the list is a long one, its often not the retailers, is the distributors that are nailing us

I can beat those numbers.

A pneumatic gripper for a robotic system: from the robot manufacturer $3040:00.From the gripper manufacturer $US 308.00

[imdying]

Distributors / retailers have to pay all of these charges so why should it be any different for Joe Bloggs?Because even if they were to happen, I am 100% sure that there would be another perfectly good reason why you wouldn't carry every set of forks and shock that Ohlins make.... that would be too expensive, or the market is too small, or some other excuse. That can't happen, but until it does then I want the right to be able to drop ship whatever I want to fill in the holes in the supply chain. I don't get discounts from the supplier, and I have to pay freight for a single item in a plane, so it evens out just fine.

[SS90]

Jeeewizzzz!

Don't you guys think?

The prices in NZ are higher, simply because the industry is saving up it's profits so they can finally offer a 7 day a week trading and free phone line/website advise service.

I assure anyone that cares, the margins for parts in Europe (maximum 20%) simply because the market is CONSIDERABLY larger than NZ, and the turnover, even for small shops is again, considerably more.

I can also assure you that (most) NZ distributors hold more parts than most European distributors.
As time whets tougher, NZ may introduce tax on all these private goods coming in, however, I suspect that may harness Free trade agreements with some nations..... Maybe?

[DEATH_INC.]

I could harp on about keeping us all in jobs etc...but you've all heard it.
Same with sunday trading...how many of you work sundays?
Now...something some may find interesting...one of the local NZ tyre importers (official NZ supplier to this brand) can buy tires off the shelf ex usa cheaper than they get them through the official channels (direct from the factory). They can't though, as they have a contract to said manufacturer, and if they parallel import they loose the agency, so have no comeback on warranty etc, and of course they will have to compete with the new importer too.
It isn't always because the local guys are 'ripping' you off....

[imdying]

Businesses HAVE to make money from you to surviveIf you think that they're going to do what by charging me $630 for a part that cost me $163 landed, then you and Blue Wing Honda are dreaming :laugh:

If it was $200, and probably even $300, I would've just put the credit card on the counter without a second though, and wandered around the store looking for other trinkets to buy... so yes it actually cost them two sales at once if you look at it like that. They won't survive if they don't earn my money, and they aren't going to do that by trying to plunder me.

[Bassmatt]

If you think that they're going to do what by charging me $630 for a part that cost me $163 landed, then you and Blue Wing Honda are dreaming :laugh:

If it was $200, and probably even $300, I would've just put the credit card on the counter without a second though, and wandered around the store looking for other trinkets to buy... so yes it actually cost them two sales at once if you look at it like that. They won't survive if they don't earn my money, and they aren't going to do that by trying to plunder me.

Thats the part I cant get my head around either. many times I have thought exactly the same thing. You would think a small margin is better than none at all. I can accept that things will be more expensive here and I'm willing to pay extra if it is reasonable but in every case I have experienced, the price difference is huge.
I have a conspiracy theory about this - the nz distributors do not want to be involved in this side of the business but probably have to be as part of the distributorship(?) agreement. They are actively destorying the demand for parts to be supplied by them with the ridiculously over the top prices in the hope that people will just stop bothering to ask and will source them themselves.
FFS Ive been quoted $15 for a bolt which probably cost 5c to manufacture and sells at Bunnings for $2. If it had been $7 or $8 I would have thought that it was a bit fucking steep but handed the cash over anyway, but at $15 they can kiss my ass.

[imdying]

Worse, they did it to themselves. I was blissfully ignorant of the dramatic price difference (although I always knew it would be cheaper), and it was only over $600 for a seat cowl that made me look further afield. I now have a guy in the states who is very reliable, very flexible, and well priced. He basically gets all my business, except for Suzuki OEM parts, who I still ask the question of Avon City Suzuki first as they're good cunts (tm) and I'm not against buying locally if it doesn't mean walking around bow legged for a week.

[Bassmatt]

Slightly off topic but while I'm sitting here on my very high horse I'll have another moan.
The majority of times I have taken a car, trailer, pushbike or even a lawnmower into a mechanic/service center , the person I have dealt with has offered to try to find second hand parts in order to keep the cost of the repairs down. I have never had this when I have dealt with motorcycle workshops. When I was quoted $600 for a radiator fan, once I had stopped laughing, I asked about the possibility of a second hand one. This was met with a blank stare and an eventual "I suppose you (meaning me) could have a look on trademe". No real suggestions, no mention of motorcycle wreckers, no offer like " I'll see if I can find something and get back to you ".
The stupid pricks could have got the same second hand fan I did for $75 and charged me $300 and I would have been very happy at saving $300 and gone around telling people how fantastic (pun intended) they were.
End of rant. I feel better.

[98tls]

I think you guys have to remember that you aren't just paying for the product when you pay the money over at your local shop. You are paying for the rent, power, office workers, accountants bills, toilet paper for the dunny, advertising,envelopes, stamps etc etc etc

Years ago we bought local cos if you wanted something to fit or didn't know where to get things the loacl shop was the place to go. They made money off you guys & that was how businesses worked. A business HAS to make money off you guys to survive. You could always go to the shop on the other side of town & compare prices or even phone other shops around the country for a better deal.


Thing is ive no real interest in paying for a guys rent/power/accountants bills,i understand how it used to work but the reality is very rarely would i notice if bike shops disappeared (as in shops that carry a few bikes and bits n bobs).I know what i am after so online i go and its here around 7 days later for a better price.Bottom line is if the bloke that owns the bike shop cant afford a new boat these days tough,either can i.

[trustme]

Thing is ive no real interest in paying for a guys rent/power/accountants bills,i understand how it used to work but the reality is very rarely would i notice if bike shops disappeared (as in shops that carry a few bikes and bits n bobs).I know what i am after so online i go and its here around 7 days later for a better price.Bottom line is if the bloke that owns the bike shop cant afford a new boat these days tough,either can i.

So we end up with no dealers & buy our bikes off the internet. Want a test ride ?? Sure thing , check out ' you tube ' . If there is no shop left to sell bikes , buying them gets a whole bunch harder. JMHO

[Ocean1]

For quite some time, now there's been two completely seperate worlds when it comes to the supply of all sorts of equipment.

There's the stuff out of China which often costs the western consumer approximately what his local manufacturer would pay for the materials.
And then there's the stuff from that local manufacturer, usually via at least one intermediary.

I've spent much of my time over the last couple of decades trying to maintain some distance between the two. After all of the various trade barriers are removed there's just one way a local manufacturer can survive. Make shit they can't. I've done OK, but it's fast approaching the point where even that's not possible, I don't have quite the superior technical edge I used to, and all you can do is hope that your reputation for quality makes up the difference.

The thing is, much of what you buy on-line is artificially cheap, through a combination of bulk-buying economies of scale and the absence of a vast range of official and unofficial trade barriers. The last company I worked for couldn't buy the raw materials for their products for the cost (retail) of an imported Chinese finished product. I'm not suggesting the typical 200-300% margin on the local supply over the off-shore price is defensable, but the field certainly ain't level, and it's not looking good, long term for the local guys.

[bogan]

So we end up with no dealers & buy our bikes off the internet. Want a test ride ?? Sure thing , check out ' you tube ' . If there is no shop left to sell bikes , buying them gets a whole bunch harder. JMHO

So us guys buying parts for our second hand bikes are all subsiding the rich cunts who can afford new bikes anyway? Seems like an odd way to run a business...

[imdying]

So we end up with no dealers & buy our bikes off the internet. Want a test ride ?? Sure thing , check out ' you tube ' . If there is no shop left to sell bikes , buying them gets a whole bunch harder. JMHOCan't get a test ride here anway, so no big deal. Just order from the states, there's a few companies that specialise in flat fee shipping who handle all the hard stuff...

[trustme]

So us guys buying parts for our second hand bikes are all subsiding the rich cunts who can afford new bikes anyway? Seems like an odd way to run a business...
If you put as much effort into aspiring to be a rich cunt as you put into hating them , you might just be a happier person :love::love:

[bogan]

If you put as much effort into aspiring to be a rich cunt as you put into hating them , you might just be a happier person :love::love:

:lol: I have no shortage of either aspiration or happiness. I do however question the validity of a business model where the biggest sales items must be supported by the smaller to be a viable business, especially in light of the fact customer have a choice when it comes to the smaller items. Guess it doesn't really matter, as if it isn't a viable business model, bike shops will be forced to adopt one that is, or close up. Time will tell eh!

[trustme]

Can't get a test ride here anway, so no big deal. Just order from the states, there's a few companies that specialize in flat fee shipping who handle all the hard stuff...

I can see the dealer networks fading for sure. I'm far from convinced that long term we will be any better off. I'm currently buying bike bits out of Florida [ not available here] time delays make emails & phone calls kind of dragged out, sure as hell would not want to do it all the time for every part .

Remember when computers were coming , hell yeah , the end of paperwork . Still buried in paperwork & screeds of mindless emails from people attempting to justify their existence / job

No texts though . If you can't be bothered talking to me I can't be bothered responding.

[trustme]

:lol: I have no shortage of either aspiration or happiness. I do however question the validity of a business model where the biggest sales items must be supported by the smaller to be a viable business, especially in light of the fact customer have a choice when it comes to the smaller items. Guess it doesn't really matter, as if it isn't a viable business model, bike shops will be forced to adopt one that is, or close up. Time will tell eh!

I don't think the margins on bike sales will keep them afloat , they need the parts , servicing & accessory revenue as well

It's a pretty tough game at the moment . I don't think any of them are making any money , certainly not according to a major AK dealer who has decreased his staff by 30%. He should drop more but hopes he will not have too

[Bassmatt]

I don't think the margins on bike sales will keep them afloat , they need the parts , servicing & accessory revenue as well

It's a pretty tough game at the moment . I don't think any of them are making any money , certainly not according to a major AK dealer who has decreased his staff by 30%. He should drop more but hopes he will not have too

There are too many new motorcycle dealers in many areas , its as simple as that. For example Tauranga/Mt has 5 that i can think of vs 7 or 8 (I might be missing 1 or 2) new car dealers. Whats the sales ratio of new cars to new motorbikes? 10 to1? 20 to 1?
Then if you consider there are another 5 odd selling the same bikes 40mins drive away in Rotorua and possibly even more selling the same bikes an hour away in Hamilton...
edit: 2011 144,871 new car rego v 5202 motorcycles (yep dosent include off road, I know)

[bogan]

I don't think the margins on bike sales will keep them afloat , they need the parts , servicing & accessory revenue as well

Then they will just have to increase the margins on the new bikes, not exactly rocket science is it.

[Ocean1]

Then they will just have to increase the margins on the new bikes, not exactly rocket science is it.

The distributors set those prices, it's called a vendor driven market.

And you're right, they don't represent the buyers best interests.

[Swoop]

I enjoy a bit of Kayak fishing...

I have been looking for a shimano baitrunner recently. After this thread I thunked to myself "internet is cheaper" and tried to search out a few options.
A few visits to local fishing shops (plus tardMe, local 'net dealers, etc) and so far I have found one local dealer who is equalling the lowest overseas interdweeb dealer. The bastards have the nerve to also be open on a Sunday!

HOW DARE THEY!


(Unless someone can point out a cheaper supplier of baitrunners?)

[98tls]

I don't think the margins on bike sales will keep them afloat , they need the parts , servicing & accessory revenue as well

It's a pretty tough game at the moment . I don't think any of them are making any money , certainly not according to a major AK dealer who has decreased his staff by 30%. He should drop more but hopes he will not have too

Nothing much has changed then,ive spent some years selling both cars and bikes and remember back around 19 years ago selling Toyotas (for 7 years) which were then and still are i guess a pretty popular car,dealerships then wouldnt have survived without there service depts/parts depts.They struggled back then so its not a new thing,surely somebody should have come up with a new game plan eh,if they havent which it doesnt sound like then...:violin:

[avgas]

Slightly off topic but while I'm sitting here on my very high horse I'll have another moan.
The majority of times I have taken a car, trailer, pushbike or even a lawnmower into a mechanic/service center , the person I have dealt with has offered to try to find second hand parts in order to keep the cost of the repairs down. I have never had this when I have dealt with motorcycle workshops. When I was quoted $600 for a radiator fan, once I had stopped laughing, I asked about the possibility of a second hand one. This was met with a blank stare and an eventual "I suppose you (meaning me) could have a look on trademe". No real suggestions, no mention of motorcycle wreckers, no offer like " I'll see if I can find something and get back to you ".
The stupid pricks could have got the same second hand fan I did for $75 and charged me $300 and I would have been very happy at saving $300 and gone around telling people how fantastic (pun intended) they were.
End of rant. I feel better.
That is actually a very good point. Most of the bike shops have charged me a small fortune while they made everything official. The exception to the rule has been Blackwood (?) Yamaha in Cambridge - who saved my arse and my pocket when the FZ1 shat a bearing on its way to Taupo.

On a positive note. Had a good run in with Cycletreads lately. Got a 18" tyre, fitted, cleaned my wheel, replaced the valve......made me feel guilty when I put it back on so I had to clean the swing-arm and sliders.

[Headbanger]

So we end up with no dealers & buy our bikes off the internet. Want a test ride ?? Sure thing , check out ' you tube ' . If there is no shop left to sell bikes , buying them gets a whole bunch harder. JMHO


Sounds good to me, test rides are good for sweet fanny fuck all.

You can't tell in a single ride if you can live long term with a bike or not, At best you might notice if its fucked, But thats the second hand market....or a Hyosung.

[Jantar]

The distributors set those prices, it's called a vendor driven market.

And you're right, they don't represent the buyers best interests.

When distributors set prices they are breaking the commerce act. I recall F&P being prosecuted for this a few years ago when they refused to supply dealers who were offering products at less than F&P's set price. F&P lost the court case and they ended up with a huge fine.

Price fixing is highly illegal and if it can be proved that any importer is doing so then they could be for the high jump. I suspect Blue Wing Honda maybe doing so, but how does anyone prove it?

[Ocean1]

When distributors set prices they are breaking the commerce act. I recall F&P being prosecuted for this a few years ago when they refused to supply dealers who were offering products at less than F&P's set price. F&P lost the court case and they ended up with a huge fine.

Price fixing is highly illegal and if it can be proved that any importer is doing so then they could be for the high jump. I suspect Blue Wing Honda maybe doing so, but how does anyone prove it?

It's common. With or without the legal work-arounds it's the defacto business model for most large corperations in NZ. I'd quote detailed examples, but I don't need the hassle.

In my experience apart from a few notable exceptions like that F&P case the commerce commission fails to manage the anti-competitive part of their brief almost totally. Just look at the number of effective and actual monopolies present in NZ, and compare prices to the same entities sales in Aus.

[Kickaha]

When distributors set prices they are breaking the commerce act.
It isn't quite that simple but I'd have to go dig my books out because I can't remember the whole story

[SS90]

Slightly off topic but while I'm sitting here on my very high horse I'll have another moan.
The majority of times I have taken a car, trailer, pushbike or even a lawnmower into a mechanic/service center , the person I have dealt with has offered to try to find second hand parts in order to keep the cost of the repairs down. I have never had this when I have dealt with motorcycle workshops. When I was quoted $600 for a radiator fan, once I had stopped laughing, I asked about the possibility of a second hand one. This was met with a blank stare and an eventual "I suppose you (meaning me) could have a look on trademe". No real suggestions, no mention of motorcycle wreckers, no offer like " I'll see if I can find something and get back to you ".
The stupid pricks could have got the same second hand fan I did for $75 and charged me $300 and I would have been very happy at saving $300 and gone around telling people how fantastic (pun intended) they were.
End of rant. I feel better.

IF (and I mean IF) said shop had done this for you (provided a second hand fan), and, it has failed, woulkd you then ask for your money back?

[Bassmatt]

IF (and I mean IF) said shop had done this for you (provided a second hand fan), and, it has failed, woulkd you then ask for your money back?

That would depend on what they charged and how long it lasted.
$300 and failed in the first week? Probably.
$100 and failed on the day it went in? Probably not.
But I say that now, knowing the cost of a second hand fan. Had I not been made to find it myself and had no idea of its true value then at $300, thinking I had saved a true $300 I would probably not have asked for a refund at all unless it failed as I was driving away from the shop.
And that is their biggest mistake. Now I'm going to be looking at the second hand (or international) price of everything before handing over the cash for a new part at NZ prices.

[Woodman]

That would depend on what they charged and how long it lasted.
$300 and failed in the first week? Probably.
$100 and failed on the day it went in? Probably not.
But I say that now, knowing the cost of a second hand fan. Had I not been made to find it myself and had no idea of its true value then at $300, thinking I had saved a true $300 I would probably not have asked for a refund at all unless it failed as I was driving away from the shop.
And that is their biggest mistake. Now I'm going to be looking at the second hand (or international) price of everything before handing over the cash for a new part at NZ prices.

Fitting a second hand part could easily come back and bite the workshop on the ass in a big way, all because they are trying to be the nice guys and saving their customer money. Not worth the hassle.

[SS90]

Fitting a second hand part could easily come back and bite the workshop on the ass in a big way, all because they are trying to be the nice guys and saving their customer money. Not worth the hassle.

Amen to that!

[HenryDorsetCase]

It's common. With or without the legal work-arounds it's the defacto business model for most large corperations in NZ. I'd quote detailed examples, but I don't need the hassle.

In my experience apart from a few notable exceptions like that F&P case the commerce commission fails to manage the anti-competitive part of their brief almost totally. Just look at the number of effective and actual monopolies present in NZ, and compare prices to the same entities sales in Aus.

Two words for you Kim: The building trade.

egregious ripoffs galore.

[HenryDorsetCase]

It isn't quite that simple but I'd have to go dig my books out because I can't remember the whole story

From memory, the distributors can set "non binding" "recommended retail" prices. The other thing that bit F & P if I recall was the fact that their distribution agreement provided that "If you sell F & P you cannot sell competing brands".

So you get a Bond and Bond store right next door to a Noel Leeming store: one sells F & P the other does not. Same store though.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nothing much has changed then,ive spent some years selling both cars and bikes and remember back around 19 years ago selling Toyotas (for 7 years) which were then and still are i guess a pretty popular car,dealerships then wouldnt have survived without there service depts/parts depts.They struggled back then so its not a new thing,surely somebody should have come up with a new game plan eh,if they havent which it doesnt sound like then...:violin:

It would be a good time to be a toyota dealer in chur chur I reckon. It seems that EVERY tradie I see has a brand new SR5 with all the fruit. Plumber, drainlayer, electrician, plasterer, painter whatever.

artificial economy I know, but presumably Bruce Miles is giggling all the way to the bank.

[BMWST?]

Two words for you Kim: The building trade.

egregious ripoffs galore.

thats a perception only.I work in a prenail plant and i can tell you our margins are tiny.And i know others are too.Sometimes people come in saying so and so have given me this price.When we look at it we cant even buy the timber we need to make the job for that figure.In a normal job we are often within a couple of hundred dollars of each other.
Any business can set whatever price they want for an item.The commerce commison will become very interested if it knows for example that supposed competitors have agreed to sell similar products for a similar price.How do you know that though?.In the market competitors know what the market price for 100x50 and gib board are.Their customers tell them.

[Katman]

From memory, the distributors can set "non binding" "recommended retail" prices.

And they set their wholesale prices according to their recommended retail prices.

For a retail business, already just surviving on modest margins, dropping their own retail price doesn't make very good business sense.

[Bassmatt]

Fitting a second hand part could easily come back and bite the workshop on the ass in a big way, all because they are trying to be the nice guys and saving their customer money. Not worth the hassle.

How would it be any different from me taking a second hand part in and asking them to fit it? Is that gonna bite them on the ass too?
It was a fan, its not like I'm asking for second hand brake bloody brake pads or 10 yr old tyres. As in all the other cases I mentioned I would of had to give my approval for the second hand part to be fitted so my problem/responsibility not thiers.
If they had surreptitiously put a second hand part on without mentioning it then different story.
Selling a second hand bike which by definition is made of second hand parts is all good but its too dangerous for them to attempt to find a second hand part..okay, got it. :niceone:
They have also happily sold me a road bike when I didn't have a motorbike license in the full knowledge I intended to ride it on the road, do you expect the police would be charging them if I had come off it ?.
Ive bought 2 brand new bikes , chains, tyres, oil filters etc easily spent 40-50k with them in the last three years. If that aint worth the hassle then I look forward to seeing them go out of business.

[Ocean1]

The commerce commison will become very interested if it knows for example that supposed competitors have agreed to sell similar products for a similar price.How do you know that though?.In the market competitors know what the market price for 100x50 and gib board are.Their customers tell them.

The commerce commission couldn't give a shit. If they did they'd be looking into why a sheet of Gib made in NZ costs $22 in NZ and $12 in Aussie. You don't need to go far to find simmilar indicators in most markets.


And they set their wholesale prices according to their recommended retail prices.

For a retail business, already just surviving on modest margins, dropping their own retail price doesn't make very good business sense.

As it stands it lookes like most bike retailers are subsidising artificially tight new bike sales margines by inflating service and spares margines.

To me that means the distributor's taking an unfair slice of the overall industry spend. I'd prefer the distributors stuck to fixing the wholesale price and kept their sticky fingers out of the broader industry retail till, but unless the shop's completely free to price as they want the end user doesn't get much say.

Market manipulation is rife, everywhere, and I hate it, it removes much of the control of the market that rightfully belongs to the customer.

[imdying]

Surely it can't be that hard to roll Blue Wing... the Japanese really dislike losing face, that might be the right avenue for poking the beast.

[Crasherfromwayback]

NZ dealers need to rethink not only what they charge .... (and what they say to try to bullshit the customer) ......one said "oh but theres a huge tax on automotive parts ...... compare the prices, and the tax must be ginormous ..... or are they just ripping us poor customers off.



What you don't understand my good fellow is this...how it actually works. Being a francise dealer means you MUST buy your genuine spares from the NZ distributor...and THEY alone set the retail price for the bits...not the poor cunt that always gets it in the neck.


What people need to understand though is that it is Bluewing that need to cop it in the neck if the consumer is unhappy - not the poor old retailer who is tied to the price that Bluewing sets.

You know it. Surprised after fuck know's how many threads/posts about it...most here don't.

[imdying]

What you don't understand my good fellow is this...how it actually works. Being a francise dealer means you MUST buy your genuine spares from the NZ distributor...and THEY alone set the retail price for the bits...not the poor cunt that always gets it in the neck.I keep hearing this, so I presume there's an 'or else'.

Setting up a business to sell the big fours OEM spare parts which are drop shipped from an undisclosed operation might just work splendidly in this country. If 'they' try to shut it down by leaning on the suppliers, that's monopolistic and then we can levy some lovely fines at them.

Yeah, maybe in dream world. I'll keep doing my part by not buying my OEM spares from New Zealand. My spare cash can continue to go to the genuine value adders... mechanics, machinists, tyre fitters, suspension tuners etc.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I keep hearing this, so I presume there's an 'or else'.

Setting up a business to sell the big fours OEM spare parts which are drop shipped from an undisclosed operation might just work splendidly in this country. .

I think you could be well right.

[White trash]

I keep hearing this, so I presume there's an 'or else'.

Setting up a business to sell the big fours OEM spare parts which are drop shipped from an undisclosed operation might just work splendidly in this country. If 'they' try to shut it down by leaning on the suppliers, that's monopolistic and then we can levy some lovely fines at them.

Yeah, maybe in dream world. I'll keep doing my part by not buying my OEM spares from New Zealand. My spare cash can continue to go to the genuine value adders... mechanics, machinists, tyre fitters, suspension tuners etc.

A retailer selling genuine parts, imported from elsewhere, is likely to have all four legitimate importers crying to the factory, who will in turn remind the outfits selling their parts to an off shore retailer that they are in breach of their franchise agreement and risk being removed.

[imdying]

A retailer selling genuine parts, imported from elsewhere, is likely to have all four legitimate importers crying to the factory, who will in turn remind the outfits selling their parts to an off shore retailer that they are in breach of their franchise agreement and risk being removed.That would be the hope... then the Commerce Commission would have something croncrete to prosecute Blue Wing with. I suspect that the cat and mouse game would go on for a while before Honda corporate could squash it, so many places that could be used, many in countries with far less morals.

[Bassmatt]

So dealers, whats the response from the distributors when you tell them the prices they set for parts are fucking ludicrous, you're sick of getting shit from customers over the prices, an awful lot of people are bypassing us and importing their own, what do you expect me to say when a customer asks " how the fuck can you justify that price", etc etc?

[Ocean1]

That would be the hope... then the Commerce Commission would have something croncrete to prosecute Blue Wing with. I suspect that the cat and mouse game would go on for a while before Honda corporate could squash it, so many places that could be used, many in countries with far less morals.

Honda Japan control their spares distribution, they're not about to supply anyone likely to undercut their national distributors.

About 5 years ago you could order genuine KTM parts from official KTM dealers in the US at discounts we're still familliar with for non OE stuff. Word came from head office that the US dealers were to cease selling anything whatsoever to off-shore clients with imediat effect. End of.

[Woodman]

How would it be any different from me taking a second hand part in and asking them to fit it? Is that gonna bite them on the ass too?
It was a fan, its not like I'm asking for second hand brake bloody brake pads or 10 yr old tyres. As in all the other cases I mentioned I would of had to give my approval for the second hand part to be fitted so my problem/responsibility not thiers.
If they had surreptitiously put a second hand part on without mentioning it then different story.
Selling a second hand bike which by definition is made of second hand parts is all good but its too dangerous for them to attempt to find a second hand part..okay, got it. :niceone:
They have also happily sold me a road bike when I didn't have a motorbike license in the full knowledge I intended to ride it on the road, do you expect the police would be charging them if I had come off it ?.
Ive bought 2 brand new bikes , chains, tyres, oil filters etc easily spent 40-50k with them in the last three years. If that aint worth the hassle then I look forward to seeing them go out of business.

If you take a second hand part, or new for that matter into a mechanic and he fits it then he is responsible if it fails because by the simple act of fitting it, that part is deemed to be fit for purpose because he is a qualified mechanic and should know.

[Robert Taylor]

How would it be any different from me taking a second hand part in and asking them to fit it? Is that gonna bite them on the ass too?
It was a fan, its not like I'm asking for second hand brake bloody brake pads or 10 yr old tyres. As in all the other cases I mentioned I would of had to give my approval for the second hand part to be fitted so my problem/responsibility not thiers.
If they had surreptitiously put a second hand part on without mentioning it then different story.
Selling a second hand bike which by definition is made of second hand parts is all good but its too dangerous for them to attempt to find a second hand part..okay, got it. :niceone:
They have also happily sold me a road bike when I didn't have a motorbike license in the full knowledge I intended to ride it on the road, do you expect the police would be charging them if I had come off it ?.
Ive bought 2 brand new bikes , chains, tyres, oil filters etc easily spent 40-50k with them in the last three years. If that aint worth the hassle then I look forward to seeing them go out of business.

Dont complain then if your own job goes west because there are people wanting your employer to go bust. Yes there are a lot of things out there that dont stack up to the layman, some criticism is justified and much also is unjustified

The vibes I get on this forum all the time are ''us and them''. The big bad rip off shops versus the poor consumers. The whole situation with buying offshore is certainly accelerating and as a by product so is the number of ordinary everyday people, JUST LIKE YOURSELVES losing their livelihood. And the ability for employers to improve real wage rates in such an environment is also severely compromised.

[Brian d marge]

Dont complain then if your own job goes west because there are people wanting your employer to go bust. Yes there are a lot of things out there that dont stack up to the layman, some criticism is justified and much also is unjustified

The vibes I get on this forum all the time are ''us and them''. The big bad rip off shops versus the poor consumers. The whole situation with buying offshore is certainly accelerating and as a by product so is the number of ordinary everyday people, JUST LIKE YOURSELVES losing their livelihood. And the ability for employers to improve real wage rates in such an environment is also severely compromised.
Yeas and no
IF the idustry fails to adapt to the changing market , thats management. If the industry is tied to one egg in a basket and that egg goes out of favour ( fax machine say ) the business must re-invent itself or go under , management again?
Motorcycles are a hobby for basically the over forties and a few younguns and only for a few weeks a year ( to be brutal ). If one is relying on servicing , parts and bike sales ....and has a few staff at say 500 a week . yes well already those sums aint so hot.
Then we ( the greneral tight arsed public cant or wont open the wallet and shop for a bargain , overseas.
looking even worse
its ( at the moment, I think, a sunset industry )

the rental market was doing ok lots of tourista in summer , all with money ......

anyway must dash , I REALLY must finish this project otherwise I WILL be on the scrapheap !!!!

Stephen

[BMWST?]

The commerce commission couldn't give a shit. If they did they'd be looking into why a sheet of Gib made in NZ costs $22 in NZ and $12 in Aussie. You don't need to go far to find simmilar indicators in most markets.



As it stands it lookes like most bike retailers are subsidising artificially tight new bike sales margines by inflating service and spares margines.

To me that means the distributor's taking an unfair slice of the overall industry spend. I'd prefer the distributors stuck to fixing the wholesale price and kept their sticky fingers out of the broader industry retail till, but unless the shop's completely free to price as they want the end user doesn't get much say.

Market manipulation is rife, everywhere, and I hate it, it removes much of the control of the market that rightfully belongs to the customer.

winstones(do they still own it) have a monopoly thet can sell it for what they like...the commerce commision cant do anything about that

[240]

Surely it can't be that hard to roll Blue Wing... the Japanese really dislike losing face, that might be the right avenue for poking the beast.

"The beast" is probably just a bunch of guys trying to earn a living like most of you posting here.
Whoever you work for probably tries to make money to give you a job (not just you mate but all who moan about nz prices).
We are a small country,turnover is low,freight is high and kiwis want everything for fuck all and still want our under crowded roads to ride on.
We need money to circulate in our own country to survive,so those who import their brake lines and if they burst and they dump their bikes and break a leg charge your overseas supplier not acc.

[Ocean1]

winstones(do they still own it) have a monopoly thet can sell it for what they like...the commerce commision cant do anything about that

They can. Indeed their primary role is to prevent monopolistic behaviour.

So: http://www.comcom.govt.nz/anti-competitive-practices/

The purpose of the Commerce Act 1986 is to promote competition in markets for the long-term benefit of New Zealand consumers.


It prohibits anti-competitive agreements between businesses such as agreements to fix prices or to carve up markets. It also makes it illegal for companies to abuse a dominant market position.

Consumers and businesses can end up paying higher prices or having reduced choice of goods or services as a result of such agreements.

The type of agreements that are illegal can involve two or more businesses colluding (coordinated conduct), or the actions of a single business or person (unilateral conduct).

What is illegal?

Coordinated conduct includes:
Agreements that substantially lessen competition in a market
Agreements that exclude or limit dealings with a rival
Agreements that fix, maintain or control prices (also known as cartels).

Unilateral conduct includes:
A person or business taking advantage of their dominant position in a market for an anti-competitive purpose
A person or business specifying a minimum price at which its goods or services can be sold by another - this is called resale price maintenance.

[Brian d marge]

They can. Indeed their primary role is to prevent monopolistic behaviour.

So: http://www.comcom.govt.nz/anti-competitive-practices/

The purpose of the Commerce Act 1986 is to promote competition in markets for the long-term benefit of New Zealand consumers.


It prohibits anti-competitive agreements between businesses such as agreements to fix prices or to carve up markets. It also makes it illegal for companies to abuse a dominant market position.

Consumers and businesses can end up paying higher prices or having reduced choice of goods or services as a result of such agreements.

The type of agreements that are illegal can involve two or more businesses colluding (coordinated conduct), or the actions of a single business or person (unilateral conduct).

What is illegal?

Coordinated conduct includes:
Agreements that substantially lessen competition in a market
Agreements that exclude or limit dealings with a rival
Agreements that fix, maintain or control prices (also known as cartels).

Unilateral conduct includes:
A person or business taking advantage of their dominant position in a market for an anti-competitive purpose
A person or business specifying a minimum price at which its goods or services can be sold by another - this is called resale price maintenance.

Mods , this post, I think should be the jokes and Humour section

Stephen

Just kidding Ocean 1 !!

[Brian d marge]

"The beast" is probably just a bunch of guys trying to earn a living like most of you posting here.
Whoever you work for probably tries to make money to give you a job (not just you mate but all who moan about nz prices).
We are a small country,turnover is low,freight is high and kiwis want everything for fuck all and still want our under crowded roads to ride on.
We need money to circulate in our own country to survive,so those who import their brake lines and if they burst and they dump their bikes and break a leg charge your overseas supplier not acc.

Im self employed, had to relocate in order to be what I wanted to be ( no , I only wear a skirt in my free time and , yes I work for honda )

If I dont adapt , my family doesnt eat , its that simple

Stephen

[Delerium]

Fitting a second hand part could easily come back and bite the workshop on the ass in a big way, all because they are trying to be the nice guys and saving their customer money. Not worth the hassle.

My cage mechanic did it for me. Told me there was a 30 day guarantee on second hand parts. Didnt have any issue with that at all.

[Jantar]

....
Motorcycles are a hobby for basically the over forties and a few younguns and only for a few weeks a year ( to be brutal ). .....

You may be right .....

Except that most new riders appear to be late teens or early 20s, and ....

If you can call 52 weeks of a year "only a few".

[gammaguy]

Honda Japan control their spares distribution, they're not about to supply anyone likely to undercut their national distributors.

About 5 years ago you could order genuine KTM parts from official KTM dealers in the US at discounts we're still familliar with for non OE stuff. Word came from head office that the US dealers were to cease selling anything whatsoever to off-shore clients with imediat effect. End of.

I used to import genuine BMW parts from a well known California BMW dealer,my clients were happy campers,they got parts at awesome prices,I was busy as.

Then one day all the parts I ordered were mysteriously"out of stock"

Seems BMW NZ had a word in someones ear,and they were told not to ship overseas any more.

just one of the many reasons I moved my business offshore.....

[Gremlin]

I keep hearing this, so I presume there's an 'or else'.

Setting up a business to sell the big fours OEM spare parts which are drop shipped from an undisclosed operation might just work splendidly in this country. If 'they' try to shut it down by leaning on the suppliers, that's monopolistic and then we can levy some lovely fines at them.
Except some think this would seriously work. So how does the average joe find out about the leaning?

The dealer loses their franchise, likely goes out of business while maybe (if the average joe is lucky) the commerce commission spends a few years investigating and levies a small fine?

Yeah right, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. The dealers have their hands tied by agreements, and won't be going against the importers, otherwise, no franchise...

[Brian d marge]

You may be right .....

Except that most new riders appear to be late teens or early 20s, and ....

If you can call 52 weeks of a year "only a few".

You might want to have another look
What the split of fair weather riders to year round is I wouldn't know off top of head , depends on part of country I suppose
But judging by the age I'm guessing most will have a car and a good chunk will park up for winter
Its probably find out able , but no time this end at the moment
My original point still stands though
Stephen

[Brian d marge]

If you want to find out the big fours stance on spares and bikes imported outside of the dealer network
Look up grey imports, Britain during the late 80s early 90s
I was working for the big h and I can tell you they tried everything to stop the grey importers. It really was a dirty word, if it wasn't officially imported you got no support from the company
Funny thing was in the tech dept just inside the door , there was a vfr sectioned ,,,,,with a Japanese speed light on the dash,,,is a grey import as it hadn't complied with English not
Stephen

[imdying]

"The beast" is probably just a bunch of guys trying to earn a living like most of you posting here.
Whoever you work for probably tries to make money to give you a job (not just you mate but all who moan about nz prices).
We are a small country,turnover is low,freight is high and kiwis want everything for fuck all and still want our under crowded roads to ride on.
We need money to circulate in our own country to survive,so those who import their brake lines and if they burst and they dump their bikes and break a leg charge your overseas supplier not acc."The beast" was actually Honda Corporate, but I get your point. Ya know what.... fuck em. They've made their bed, they can lie in it.



Except some think this would seriously work. So how does the average joe find out about the leaning?

The dealer loses their franchise, likely goes out of business while maybe (if the average joe is lucky) the commerce commission spends a few years investigating and levies a small fine?

Yeah right, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. The dealers have their hands tied by agreements, and won't be going against the importers, otherwise, no franchise...I wonder if the larger and larger influence on the world wide market from the Koreans (and whoever is next) will sort that out.

[jasonu]

So dealers, whats the response from the distributors when you tell them the prices they set for parts are fucking ludicrous, you're sick of getting shit from customers over the prices, an awful lot of people are bypassing us and importing their own, what do you expect me to say when a customer asks " how the fuck can you justify that price", etc etc?

This is a good question that has no response from any of the dealers or people in the know on here.

[PeeJay]

The importer/wholesaler/distibutor/retailer model worked 50 yrs ago when everything came by boat, when communicating with another country was a mission, and transferring money overseas was a major mission. Govt regulations had a tight rein on what could be imported, who could import it, and who could pay for it.

Well things have changed, communications, transport and govt regulations mean the old business model, in many cases, is an irrelevant hindrance to the efficient transfer of goods and capital.
Unfortunately many of the old school arent even trying to come to grips with a new way of doing things, they have been clipping the ticket for so long they cant see why they shouldnt continue as they always have,

Is it any wonder when you can for example find a part on the net for $100, and its 5 days away, local dealer $200 and its 3-4 weeks away. Why you ask? blah blah blah blah we have to pay rent, we have to pay wages, I need petrol for my roller, economies of scale, small market etc etc etc etc kiwi jobs etc etc etc
Its all BS and excuses because they want to keep that gravy train going as long as possible.
Thats why the retailers dont push back too hard, they are making a $$ and as long as they do they will do their bit to maintain the status quo.
Everything is driven by self-interest, if a retailer thinks the cost of keeping a franchise is more than the cost of not having a franchise then he will ditch it and do his own thing.
The "market" will sort itself out. There will always be those who wont go onto the Internet to buy anything, so they will pay well over the odds for peace of mind. There are obviously enough of these people to keep the present system going but for how long?

No different from Kim Dotcoms argument with the MPAA

[Crasherfromwayback]

, I need petrol for my roller,

That alone shows how out of touch you are.

[gammaguy]

If you want to find out the big fours stance on spares and bikes imported outside of the dealer network
Look up grey imports, Britain during the late 80s early 90s
I was working for the big h and I can tell you they tried everything to stop the grey importers. It really was a dirty word, if it wasn't officially imported you got no support from the company
Funny thing was in the tech dept just inside the door , there was a vfr sectioned ,,,,,with a Japanese speed light on the dash,,,is a grey import as it hadn't complied with English not
Stephen

and in 1987 the british suzuki importers won the isle of man production class on a japanese import model RG400.They had to bring a few more in to justify it though,but try getting a british suzuki dealer to admit that now...

[Zipper2T]

Motorcycles are a hobby for basically the over forties and a few younguns and only for a few weeks a year ( to be brutal ).

Stephen

Unlike that wonderful invention the Scooter, which is used as day to day transport all year round!!:laugh:

[Brian d marge]

Unlike that wonderful invention the Scooter, which is used as day to day transport all year round!!:laugh:
oh there piles of money flooding in

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

The importer/wholesaler/distibutor/retailer model worked 50 yrs ago when everything came by boat, when communicating with another country was a mission, and transferring money overseas was a major mission. Govt regulations had a tight rein on what could be imported, who could import it, and who could pay for it.

Well things have changed, communications, transport and govt regulations mean the old business model, in many cases, is an irrelevant hindrance to the efficient transfer of goods and capital.
Unfortunately many of the old school arent even trying to come to grips with a new way of doing things, they have been clipping the ticket for so long they cant see why they shouldnt continue as they always have,

Is it any wonder when you can for example find a part on the net for $100, and its 5 days away, local dealer $200 and its 3-4 weeks away. Why you ask? blah blah blah blah we have to pay rent, we have to pay wages, I need petrol for my roller, economies of scale, small market etc etc etc etc kiwi jobs etc etc etc
Its all BS and excuses because they want to keep that gravy train going as long as possible.
Thats why the retailers dont push back too hard, they are making a $$ and as long as they do they will do their bit to maintain the status quo.
Everything is driven by self-interest, if a retailer thinks the cost of keeping a franchise is more than the cost of not having a franchise then he will ditch it and do his own thing.
The "market" will sort itself out. There will always be those who wont go onto the Internet to buy anything, so they will pay well over the odds for peace of mind. There are obviously enough of these people to keep the present system going but for how long?

No different from Kim Dotcoms argument with the MPAA



Some compelling points about purchase price and delivery times.

But gravy train????????????????????? I know very very few motorcycle industry people that are so flush with huge profits that they are riding the gravy train.............In fact I know of none.

Many of us have in fact adapted and WORK BLOODY HARD to make a living.

But Ive made the point many times and people are not prepared to enagage about it. As a by product of the way the world has evoved this is putting many ordinary everyday working people out of work. For myriad reasons ( and this is not a point made to seek an argument as it has been done to death )we are sending lots of money offshore where it is going into the local economies there, it sure as hell doesnt get put back into our economy.

SO WHERE DO ALL OF THESE DISPLACED WORKERS GO?????

[G4L4XY]

Also the 2 rubber o'rings at $20 as opposed to shopping around and getting them both for $1.
And an Indicator for the bike at $146 and none in the country as opposed to $47 and delivery in 2-4 days..... what do you do??

Yeah I'll join in and I even posted here once about it ages ago but got shot down about it.
Went to buy a small bolt which went into the rear cowl on the Hyosung, it was used for strapping something down on the back seat I guess, was quoted $20 per, I resulted to just keeping the bolt which I munted a little trying to get off.

I think we're in the wrong business, seems like we should open an accessories specialty shop, oh but then by the sounds of things this wouldn't do very well unless the prices were adjusted

[Crasherfromwayback]

[
I think we're in the wrong business, seems like we should open an accessories specialty shop, oh but then by the sounds of things this wouldn't do very well unless the prices were adjusted

Don't you think if it was that easy every cunt would be doing it?

[Brian d marge]

Some compelling points about purchase price and delivery times.

But gravy train????????????????????? I know very very few motorcycle industry people that are so flush with huge profits that they are riding the gravy train.............In fact I know of none.

Many of us have in fact adapted and WORK BLOODY HARD to make a living.

But Ive made the point many times and people are not prepared to enagage about it. As a by product of the way the world has evoved this is putting many ordinary everyday working people out of work. For myriad reasons ( and this is not a point made to seek an argument as it has been done to death )we are sending lots of money offshore where it is going into the local economies there, it sure as hell doesnt get put back into our economy.

SO WHERE DO ALL OF THESE DISPLACED WORKERS GO?????

well according to the business round table and mates , they retrain.

now we are starting to see the cracks in an inherently flawed system. But this is the one we have to deal with , sooo adapt we must.

Money doesn’t have to flow off shore IF the local economy/business provides a service that the customer requires. ( a bad example , milk? do we buy milk from Australia ? ( probably !!! it wouldn’t surprise me !)

Sorry RT , but you may well be a good example of a local business providing a flexible niche service to a local market. Investing profits back into your business.

Stephen

[SMOKEU]

Suzuki wanted to charge me $223 for a rubber fuel pump assembly seal for my bike. It's a normal servicing item that is meant to be replaced every time the in tank fuel filter is cleaned. I got the part for $US24 including shipping by ordering online.

I can order in genuine Zippo lighters for less than NZ$20 as well. The same thing in shops is over double the price.

[Robert Taylor]

don't you think if it was that easy every cunt would be doing it?

exactly, have seen plenty of such shops come and go ''that were going to set the world on fire''.

[Flip]

Don't you think if it was that easy every cunt would be doing it?

Well from one point of view every cunt is doing it.

I mean that they are acting like the manuifacturers agent and sourcing the parts they need from other, usually overseas suppliers. The suprising thing is how easy and profitable it is to do.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well from one point of view every cunt is doing it.

I mean that they are acting like the manuifacturers agent and sourcing the parts they need from other, usually overseas suppliers. The suprising thing is how easy and profitable it is to do.

lol. Guess you're right there!

But seriously...it's not easy money. Not too many in the industry are raking it in that's for real. Many more will go to the wall before it gets better too.

Ps: I've been called far worse in my time too.

[Edbear]

lol. Guess you're right there!

But seriously...it's not easy money. Not too many in the industry are raking it in that's for real. Many more will go to the wall before it gets better too.

Ps: I've been called far worse in my time too.

As an importer supplying now 48 dealers, I can agree it is not easy money. Only now after two years of hard work and investment is the business self-funding. The reason it has only taken two years? I am solo and work from home and my wife has a well paying job. The reason the batteries are so cheap? I have minimal overheads, no staff, no warehouse. If I had to run my business the same as your shop I doubt I could make it worthwhile as the batteries would be way overpriced for the NZ market.

It really can't be compared to other countries as they buy ex factory as I do but freight is way lower and they don't pay GST of 15% either. I pay international air freight. Fortunately again for the Shorai batteries is they are not dangerous goods and can be shipped standard post meaning lower shipping costs.

[Woodman]

[QUOTE=kevie;1130442285] Also the 2 rubber o'rings at $20 as opposed to shopping around and getting them both for $1.
And an Indicator for the bike at $146 and none in the country as opposed to $47 and delivery in 2-4 days..... what do you do??
QUOTE]

Yeah I'll join in and I even posted here once about it ages ago but got shot down about it.
Went to buy a small bolt which went into the rear cowl on the Hyosung, it was used for strapping something down on the back seat I guess, was quoted $20 per, I resulted to just keeping the bolt which I munted a little trying to get off.

I think we're in the wrong business, seems like we should open an accessories specialty shop, oh but then by the sounds of things this wouldn't do very well unless the prices were adjusted

Well then go to a bank, show them your business model, projections, margins, overheads, demand, customer demographics etc etc and see how much they will loan you. I bet they will be fighting over themselves to give you their money.

[PeeJay]

As an importer supplying now 48 dealers, I can agree it is not easy money. Only now after two years of hard work and investment is the business self-funding. The reason it has only taken two years? I am solo and work from home and my wife has a well paying job. The reason the batteries are so cheap? I have minimal overheads, no staff, no warehouse. If I had to run my business the same as your shop I doubt I could make it worthwhile as the batteries would be way overpriced for the NZ market.

It really can't be compared to other countries as they buy ex factory as I do but freight is way lower and they don't pay GST of 15% either. I pay international air freight. Fortunately again for the Shorai batteries is they are not dangerous goods and can be shipped standard post meaning lower shipping costs.

Maybe they dont gall it gst in other countries but there are a hell of places paying a lot more than here.
NZ has one of the lowest total consumer tax rates in the world, apart from Somalia.

Dont you claim your gst back ?

I am sure you do, you just didnt mention it so that it sounds as if you just pay it and thats that.

[Edbear]

Maybe they dont gall it gst in other countries but there are a hell of places paying a lot more than here.
NZ has one of the lowest total consumer tax rates in the world, apart from Somalia.

Dont you claim your gst back ?

I am sure you do, you just didnt mention it so that it sounds as if you just pay it and thats that.

Yes of course, but remember what you get back in reality is the difference between what you pay and what you claim each period, so unless you have made a loss for the period you will pay more GST. You can't realistically use that to set the price.

If you look at the comparison between my prices and the US RRP, and realise that this is as low as I can go and a lot lower than most importers, it will help understand the reality of the situation.

[PeeJay]

Some compelling points about purchase price and delivery times.

But gravy train????????????????????? I know very very few motorcycle industry people that are so flush with huge profits that they are riding the gravy train.............In fact I know of none.

Many of us have in fact adapted and WORK BLOODY HARD to make a living.

But Ive made the point many times and people are not prepared to enagage about it. As a by product of the way the world has evoved this is putting many ordinary everyday working people out of work. For myriad reasons ( and this is not a point made to seek an argument as it has been done to death )we are sending lots of money offshore where it is going into the local economies there, it sure as hell doesnt get put back into our economy.

SO WHERE DO ALL OF THESE DISPLACED WORKERS GO?????

Not saying you or anyone else doesnt work hard. Most people do work hard, too hard at times.

But working hard to support an ineffecient supply chain isnt the way forward.

Probably doesnt apply to you so much, as Importer, distributor, retailer you have the opportunity to rationalise the whole Ohlins supply chain in NZ.
Years ago I worked for a Motorcycle principal who was importer, distributor, retailer for a couple of major brands, he was clipping the ticket so often and for so much he hired people to do it for him. He is still around and still doing it.
For some it is a gravy train, and it isnt in their interest to change things.

As for sending money overseas, isnt an argument, doesnt matter if you send money off shore to import stuff or if I do it.
There is just as much local input either way.
To stock a 1000 shocks you provide a warehouse and a storeman.
If you dont do it and have to sack your storeman, the 1000 shocks will be privately imported and will require couriers, customs brokers, a bigger warehouse and more storemen at the PO
So your storeman could take his pick of new jobs created.

Losing jobs because of change is nothing new.
What happenned to the hay merchants, stable owners, stable hands and farriers when people stopped riding horses and started driving cars?
They became service station owners, pump jockeys and mechanics

Whats going to happen to petrol stations if everyone starts driving electric? they will start selling electricity

[Bassmatt]

Yes of course, but remember what you get back in reality is the difference between what you pay and what you claim each period, so unless you have made a loss for the period you will pay more GST. You can't realistically use that to set the price.

If you look at the comparison between my prices and the US RRP, and realise that this is as low as I can go and a lot lower than most importers, it will help understand the reality of the situation.

Hey at least you can pass it on to your customers. Try being an exporter . I have to pay GST but I dont recieve any.

[Edbear]

Hey at least you can pass it on to your customers. Try being an exporter . I have to pay GST but I dont recieve any.

Exporting is tough at the mo. Not sure what the best approach is.

[PeeJay]

Yes of course, but remember what you get back in reality is the difference between what you pay and what you claim each period, so unless you have made a loss for the period you will pay more GST. You can't realistically use that to set the price.

If you look at the comparison between my prices and the US RRP, and realise that this is as low as I can go and a lot lower than most importers, it will help understand the reality of the situation.

At the end of the day, as a business you do not pay gst.

Any gst you are charged with, you get back from IRD

Any GST you charge you pass on to the IRD

Your net GST position is zero

If its not you are doing something wrong

The only person who actually pays gst is the consumer/retail customer

[PeeJay]

Hey at least you can pass it on to your customers. Try being an exporter . I have to pay GST but I dont recieve any.

I am an exporter as well, dont have a problem with gst.

you should go and see a tax specialist or maybe even an accountant (used to be RT's storeman)

[Clockwork]

Some compelling points about purchase price and delivery times.

But gravy train????????????????????? I know very very few motorcycle industry people that are so flush with huge profits that they are riding the gravy train.............In fact I know of none.

Many of us have in fact adapted and WORK BLOODY HARD to make a living.

But Ive made the point many times and people are not prepared to enagage about it. As a by product of the way the world has evoved this is putting many ordinary everyday working people out of work. For myriad reasons ( and this is not a point made to seek an argument as it has been done to death )we are sending lots of money offshore where it is going into the local economies there, it sure as hell doesnt get put back into our economy.

SO WHERE DO ALL OF THESE DISPLACED WORKERS GO?????


Relax, Robert. It's just the free market at work. I'd have thought you'd approve.


What pisses me off is the hypocrisy of multinationals demanding a global market place (as long as they can still control local pricing.)

[Bassmatt]

I am an exporter as well, dont have a problem with gst.

you should go and see a tax specialist or maybe even an accountant (used to be RT's storeman)

I'm a price taker not a price maker unfortunately. When GST went from 12.5% to 15% where do you think the extra 2.5% came from?
I have an accountant.

[SS90]

I am an exporter as well, dont have a problem with gst.

you should go and see a tax specialist or maybe even an accountant (used to be RT's storeman)

Peejay, you either have the most crooked accountant in NZ, or you are telling porkies.

Earlier this year, you informed me that you "had a little sideline business importing used vehicles" and "don't pay GST, because you "claim in back"

Which is A) a complete LIE,
or
B) Tax fraud.
As, GST in non recoverable on imported vehicles. There is no duty, but GST is not recoverable.
Rather than me posting a link to the relevant sections of tax law, you should think very carefully how you answer this.

Now you tell us you are an exporter, and "don't have trouble with GST"

Care to elaborate?
Remember, this ain't a pissing contest down the boozer with drunken mates, there are real industry people on this thread, and some of us have been in the import business for a few decades.

[Pixie]

Some compelling points about purchase price and delivery times.

But gravy train????????????????????? I know very very few motorcycle industry people that are so flush with huge profits that they are riding the gravy train.............In fact I know of none.

Many of us have in fact adapted and WORK BLOODY HARD to make a living.

But Ive made the point many times and people are not prepared to enagage about it. As a by product of the way the world has evoved this is putting many ordinary everyday working people out of work. For myriad reasons ( and this is not a point made to seek an argument as it has been done to death )we are sending lots of money offshore where it is going into the local economies there, it sure as hell doesnt get put back into our economy.

SO WHERE DO ALL OF THESE DISPLACED WORKERS GO?????

They see Paula Benefit and she shows them all the wonderful jobs that National have created for them

[wysper]

This is a good question that has no response from any of the dealers or people in the know on here.

I will take a stab at this. This is in relation to the question of why don't the shops go back to the distributor/importer and say hey dickwad, your prices are too fricken high!! Change them.

Answer would most likely be along the lines of the following.

We would love to, however in NZ we buy so few of part x compared to almost any other international market we don't get the price breaks other dealers do. Remember out country is smaller than many other cities!

We are a million miles away from where this is coming from freight is higher, also we are expected to have every part, model, colour, size in at all times and if they are not in stock they should be only minutes away. We can't use sea freight or it will take too long, so we air freight it in (or spend a small fortune trying to hold all the stock). Price is higher.

We have to provide a warranty - international suppliers don't, we pay for parts and labour for the warranty repair.
So we try to carry a selection of spare parts, this is like trying to read a crystal ball. We have parts for some models that are close to twenty years old. However we have no chance of stocking every spare part we might need.

We warehouse the products.

We help promote the products.

We pay our governments numerous charges, port charges, duty, gst, bio security, handling and anything else our government can think of.

Staff wages.

Local freight.

ACC/OSH requirements and compliance costs.

At least two of our manufactures require orders 6 months out, confirmed and finaled 3 months out. We have to GUESS what our clients will need/want. We guess wrong, we have dead stock, or lose sales.

We try to make it so we can supply the goods as close to the US/UK retail as possible. But it is bloody hard.
Infact, usually we can't, so we try to get as close as we can.

Very few are getting rich here doing this.

Maybe the model does have to change... one question would be how would we do it and still keep everyone employed?

Hope it helps.

[PeeJay]

Peejay, you either have the most crooked accountant in NZ, or you are telling porkies.

Earlier this year, you informed me that you "had a little sideline business importing used vehicles" and "don't pay GST, because you "claim in back"

Which is A) a complete LIE,
or
B) Tax fraud.
As, GST in non recoverable on imported vehicles. There is no duty, but GST is not recoverable.
Rather than me posting a link to the relevant sections of tax law, you should think very carefully how you answer this.

Now you tell us you are an exporter, and "don't have trouble with GST"

Care to elaborate?
Remember, this ain't a pissing contest down the boozer with drunken mates, there are real industry people on this thread, and some of us have been in the import business for a few decades.

Post the relevant link

[SS90]

Post the relevant link

http://www.customs.govt.nz/features/charges/refunds/Pages/default.aspx

Had to do it from my mobile, so it wasn't easy to find (at least a minute)

This is faster
http://www.customs.govt.nz/features/charges/refunds/Pages/default.aspx#

To down to "refunds of duty for commercial importers."

Peejay, if you are going to tell fibs, make them believable and if you are cheating on your tax, don't post it on the web!

[Crasherfromwayback]

[
if you are going to tell fibs, make them believable

Fuck off. This is KB!

[PeeJay]

Very few are getting rich here doing this.

Maybe the model does have to change... one question would be how would we do it and still keep everyone employed?

Hope it helps.

The purpose of business isnt to "keep everyone employed"
Employment is a side effect of business, depends on the business of course.
Generally speaking running a successful business leads to employment.
A business whose purpose is to keep everyone employed is unlikely to be a successful business standing on its own feet.
It would require some sort of subsidy to support the "extra" employees
This subsidy could be in the form of higher prices. Subsidy via the consumer. Pretty much what this thread is about.
Govt assistance via tax breaks, wage subsidy, etc. Subsidy via the taxpayer.
Either way rather than having people employed doing pretend work, better to have them productively employed where their labour leads to something worthwhile

What is the difference between having a warehouse in Auckland and Wellington?
Between Wellington and Sydney
Between Auckland and LA

Not a lot really.
Within NZ you could have your parts in a day (if they are here)
From LA could be 2-3 days
Thats the downside
Upside, huge savings in not have a duplicate system here with all the attendant costs and problems you mention, economies of scale, what to stock, etc
Will you have to sack your storeman probably not all of them
Sitting on a computer making up orders, doesnt actually matter if the physical warehouse is here or in LA.
Parts picking? still need someone to unpack and repack orders

3d printers are getting more techo by the day
soon you will be able to email your parts

[PeeJay]

http://www.customs.govt.nz/features/charges/refunds/Pages/default.aspx

Had to do it from my mobile, so it wasn't easy to find (at least a minute)

This is faster
http://www.customs.govt.nz/features/charges/refunds/Pages/default.aspx#

To down to "refunds of duty for commercial importers."

Peejay, if you are going to tell fibs, make them believable and if you are cheating on your tax, don't post it on the web!

Exactly right Customs does not refund gst.
IRD does

[SS90]

Exactly right Customs does not refund gst.
IRD does

You sir, are a fool.

[PeeJay]

You sir, are a fool.

GST is administered by IRD not customs
Customs charge you gst on your import, IRD refund it.

But you actually have to ask IRD not Customs

I may be a fool but I'm not stupid.

[PeeJay]

You sir, are a fool.

Sorry ,thought you were going to post a link to the relevant tax law
The links you sent dealt with Customs regulations

[Edbear]

I will take a stab at this. This is in relation to the question of why don't the shops go back to the distributor/importer and say hey dickwad, your prices are too fricken high!! Change them.

Answer would most likely be along the lines of the following.

We would love to, however in NZ we buy so few of part x compared to almost any other international market we don't get the price breaks other dealers do. Remember out country is smaller than many other cities!

We are a million miles away from where this is coming from freight is higher, also we are expected to have every part, model, colour, size in at all times and if they are not in stock they should be only minutes away. We can't use sea freight or it will take too long, so we air freight it in (or spend a small fortune trying to hold all the stock). Price is higher.

We have to provide a warranty - international suppliers don't, we pay for parts and labour for the warranty repair.
So we try to carry a selection of spare parts, this is like trying to read a crystal ball. We have parts for some models that are close to twenty years old. However we have no chance of stocking every spare part we might need.

We warehouse the products.

We help promote the products.

We pay our governments numerous charges, port charges, duty, gst, bio security, handling and anything else our government can think of.

Staff wages.

Local freight.

ACC/OSH requirements and compliance costs.

At least two of our manufactures require orders 6 months out, confirmed and finaled 3 months out. We have to GUESS what our clients will need/want. We guess wrong, we have dead stock, or lose sales.

We try to make it so we can supply the goods as close to the US/UK retail as possible. But it is bloody hard.
Infact, usually we can't, so we try to get as close as we can.

Very few are getting rich here doing this.

Maybe the model does have to change... one question would be how would we do it and still keep everyone employed?

Hope it helps.

Wot he sed! :yes:

[Clockwork]

I will take a stab at this. This is in relation to the question of why don't the shops go back to the distributor/importer and say hey dickwad, your prices are too fricken high!! Change them.

Answer would most likely be along the lines of the following.

We would love to, however in NZ we buy so few of part x compared to almost any other international market we don't get the price breaks other dealers do. Remember out country is smaller than many other cities!

We are a million miles away from where this is coming from freight is higher, also we are expected to have every part, model, colour, size in at all times and if they are not in stock they should be only minutes away. We can't use sea freight or it will take too long, so we air freight it in (or spend a small fortune trying to hold all the stock). Price is higher.

We have to provide a warranty - international suppliers don't, we pay for parts and labour for the warranty repair.
So we try to carry a selection of spare parts, this is like trying to read a crystal ball. We have parts for some models that are close to twenty years old. However we have no chance of stocking every spare part we might need.

We warehouse the products.

We help promote the products.

We pay our governments numerous charges, port charges, duty, gst, bio security, handling and anything else our government can think of.

Staff wages.

Local freight.

ACC/OSH requirements and compliance costs.

At least two of our manufactures require orders 6 months out, confirmed and finaled 3 months out. We have to GUESS what our clients will need/want. We guess wrong, we have dead stock, or lose sales.

We try to make it so we can supply the goods as close to the US/UK retail as possible. But it is bloody hard.
Infact, usually we can't, so we try to get as close as we can.

Very few are getting rich here doing this.

Maybe the model does have to change... one question would be how would we do it and still keep everyone employed?

Hope it helps.

but this "economies of scale" argument doesn't wash when the consumer can and will happily source the parts elsewhere but then the local distributor or the manufacturer attempt to distort the market by preventing them from doing so.

If it's uneconomical to distribute locally..... let us source from wherever we can.

[Swoop]

Don't you think if it was that easy every cunt would be doing it?
Spare parts + cunts doing it?

This thread is obviously about Blue Wing Honda.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Spare parts + cunts doing it?

This thread is obviously about Blue Wing Honda.

They seem to cop a fair amount of flak eh!

[Swoop]

They seem to cop a fair amount of flak eh!

I just don't know why...:eek5: :buggerd: :cry:

[Robert Taylor]

but this "economies of scale" argument doesn't wash when the consumer can and will happily source the parts elsewhere but then the local distributor or the manufacturer attempt to distort the market by preventing them from doing so.

If it's uneconomical to distribute locally..... let us source from wherever we can.

If the US dollar to NZ dollar was close to 50 cents US equals 1 NZ dollar ( and you would be buying non US made parts out of the US ) then everything suddenly changes. THEY would be ''the bad guys''

[Robert Taylor]

Relax, Robert. It's just the free market at work. I'd have thought you'd approve.


What pisses me off is the hypocrisy of multinationals demanding a global market place (as long as they can still control local pricing.)

I dont approve of this negative aspect that is putting everyday people out of work. Its totally possible to have basic tory beliefs in a hard days work for a fair return, without having to agree with everything about the free market.

[Robert Taylor]

Yes of course, but remember what you get back in reality is the difference between what you pay and what you claim each period, so unless you have made a loss for the period you will pay more GST. You can't realistically use that to set the price.

If you look at the comparison between my prices and the US RRP, and realise that this is as low as I can go and a lot lower than most importers, it will help understand the reality of the situation.

EXACTLY, what PeeJay also conveniently fails to mention is that the business has to have the capital base and cash flow in the first place to pay gst. Not an insignificant problem.....

I will say it again, if you purchase goods in New Zealand or ( for example a US citizen purchasing goods in his home country ) you pay tax on the goods. Why should you not pay tax on private imports bought off the net?

On the face of it there is an enormous amount stacked against NZ retailers.

[Robert Taylor]

They see Paula Benefit and she shows them all the wonderful jobs that National have created for them

9 years of Helen Clark didnt exactly push the country forward, those bastards cant crow..........

[Robert Taylor]

The purpose of business isnt to "keep everyone employed"
Employment is a side effect of business, depends on the business of course.
Generally speaking running a successful business leads to employment.
A business whose purpose is to keep everyone employed is unlikely to be a successful business standing on its own feet.
It would require some sort of subsidy to support the "extra" employees
This subsidy could be in the form of higher prices. Subsidy via the consumer. Pretty much what this thread is about.
Govt assistance via tax breaks, wage subsidy, etc. Subsidy via the taxpayer.
Either way rather than having people employed doing pretend work, better to have them productively employed where their labour leads to something worthwhile

What is the difference between having a warehouse in Auckland and Wellington?
Between Wellington and Sydney
Between Auckland and LA

Not a lot really.
Within NZ you could have your parts in a day (if they are here)
From LA could be 2-3 days
Thats the downside
Upside, huge savings in not have a duplicate system here with all the attendant costs and problems you mention, economies of scale, what to stock, etc
Will you have to sack your storeman probably not all of them
Sitting on a computer making up orders, doesnt actually matter if the physical warehouse is here or in LA.
Parts picking? still need someone to unpack and repack orders

3d printers are getting more techo by the day
soon you will be able to email your parts

Of course it bloody well matters if the store (storeman) is here rather than in LA ( apples for apples ) Id rather put money into a locals pocket where it will be circulated into the local NZ community. Rather than some Yank who actually doesnt give a damn about whether our economy sinks or swims.

Have so many of us become so callous about the plight of our own people?

[Edbear]

If the US dollar to NZ dollar was close to 50 cents US equals 1 NZ dollar ( and you would be buying non US made parts out of the US ) then everything suddenly changes. THEY would be ''the bad guys''

I really hope the dollar stays high for my sake, but sympathise with the exporters at the same time. Doing business internationally is never an even playing field unless the currency is equal. Then we would "only" have to contend with freight and distribution costs. Okay it's not that simple, but NZ is always going to be at a disadvantage purely on economies of scale and the tyranny of distance.

Truth is the rest of the world doesn't need us for anything and it is only NZ's reputation, beauty and "niceness" that makes them want to trade with us. The Japs want to buy NZ for a golf course, golf is very expensive over there. The Chinese want to buy NZ as a holiday destination and build massive resorts all over it. The Germans actually like NZ and find they can make money here much easier than at home. That's as long as they play the game, a couple have found that cheating and playing hardball as in Germany can badly backfire in NZ. DAMHIK...

Australia secretly likes NZ and likes having us close by. Malaysia sees how few people live here and want to come here for refuge and the very high standard of living. Although the Philipino's aren't too impressed with our Public Health system, often travelling back home for medical treatment.

Most often heard comment from overseas visitors and immigrants is that NZ'rs don't know how well off they are and are too lazy and complacent to get off their backsides and work for a living.

[Brian d marge]

I dont approve of this negative aspect that is putting everyday people out of work. Its totally possible to have basic tory beliefs in a hard days work for a fair return, without having to agree with everything about the free market.

Tis what Hayek said, all for the free market WITHOUT interference but with a basic safety net(s) in place.. the mess we are in is a mixture of Friedman and Keynes ( when they need votes ) add to that a dash of greed ( banks and US , you and me ) and well...it ain’t going to fly that’s for sure

but it is the mess we live in and wont change , so ,,,, adapt or perish and look after family first ...sort of thing

Stephen

[SS90]

GST is administered by IRD not customs
Customs charge you gst on your import, IRD refund it.

But you actually have to ask IRD not Customs

I may be a fool but I'm not stupid.

No then, you are a liar, because if you did indeed have a business that exported and " a Side line" that imported, you would have a clue what you are talking about, because now you say that you cant claim the GST you pay to customs on imported vehicles (because its impossible, as it is a duty by another name), but YOU claim it back form the IRD "because they adminsiter GST, not customs".
Peejay, if you want to be taken seriously, don't make shit up.
You are demonstrating that you do not understand the costs of importing vehicles and parts as a business into New Zealand.

You clearly have no idea.:weird:

[Clockwork]

I dont approve of this negative aspect that is putting everyday people out of work. Its totally possible to have basic tory beliefs in a hard days work for a fair return, without having to agree with everything about the free market.

Interfering with a free market!! :gob:

That's the first step to Socialism :nono::nono:

[Brian d marge]

Interfering with a free market!! :gob:

That's the first step to Socialism :nono::nono:

No
The free market you are thinking of is Friedman
Smith and heyak both had social morals built in
Friedman is a carbunkle on humanity and loved by Chicago
And should never be apart of our lives


Stephen

[Clockwork]

That's as may be, I defer to your knowledge of the various flavours of economists, but I still believe as soon as you advocate interfering to bring balance or control to the market you are, in effect becoming a socialist.

Its just a matter of shade is all.

[ckai]

Hey at least you can pass it on to your customers. Try being an exporter . I have to pay GST but I dont recieve any.

How does this work? I thought GST was "tax charged on goods consumed within NZ"? Or something along those lines.


At least two of our manufactures require orders 6 months out, confirmed and finaled 3 months out. We have to GUESS what our clients will need/want. We guess wrong, we have dead stock, or lose sales.

A mate who's a parts manager for a multinational are forced to do this as well. They bring in containers of parts every 6 months to keep costs down and warehouse. Any other parts they air freight and past the cost onto the customer. And these are big machinery parts so the shipping is bloody decent.

If they find supply for the parts is crazy and they can fill another container, they'll ship in between the bi-monthly cycle.

You'd have to have bloody on to it systems to do accurate predictions though and a CRAP LOAD of past data.

[Bassmatt]

That's as may be, I defer to your knowledge of the various flavours of economists, but I still believe as soon as you advocate interfering to bring balance or control to the market you are, in effect becoming a socialist.

Its just a matter of shade is all.

Well I guess that makes every Govt. on the planet socialist then eh? There is no Govt. sanctioned market anywhere in the world that has absolutely no form of control or regulation.
Idiot.

[PeeJay]

EXACTLY, what PeeJay also conveniently fails to mention is that the business has to have the capital base and cash flow in the first place to pay gst. Not an insignificant problem.....

I will say it again, if you purchase goods in New Zealand or ( for example a US citizen purchasing goods in his home country ) you pay tax on the goods. Why should you not pay tax on private imports bought off the net?

On the face of it there is an enormous amount stacked against NZ retailers.

Presume that if its "not an insignificant problem" is another way of saying its a significant problem. Really?
Considering its refunded in what 6 weeks?
If your business is running so close to the wire that this is a significant problem, perhaps you should be doing something else.


I will say it again, if you purchase goods in New Zealand or ( for example a US citizen purchasing goods in his home country ) you pay tax on the goods. Why should you not pay tax on private imports bought off the net?

Say it as often as you like, still wont make it true
The tax free threshold also applies to you, so if its really a problem for you, just bring in shipments at less than $400 and you wont have to stump up for gst
The other side to this is, if a private importer brings something in at more than $400, they are liable for gst

IE the same threshold rules apply to both a commercial importer and a private importer

But you and Ed already know this but dont want to say because it undermines your argument

[PeeJay]

Of course it bloody well matters if the store (storeman) is here rather than in LA ( apples for apples ) Id rather put money into a locals pocket where it will be circulated into the local NZ community. Rather than some Yank who actually doesnt give a damn about whether our economy sinks or swims.

Have so many of us become so callous about the plight of our own people?

If you had read it I said the physical warehouse could be in LA


Id rather put money into a locals pocket where it will be circulated into the local NZ community. Rather than some Yank who actually doesnt give a damn about whether our economy sinks or swims.

Have so many of us become so callous about the plight of our own people?

Before fall off your high horse, how much money are you siphoning out of the NZ economy and sending of overseas to keep Swedes, Japanese, Chinese, Americans in work?
Maybe the govt should ban the import of Ohlins and RaceTech then all that money that currently goes overseas could as you put it

Id rather put money into a locals pocket where it will be circulated into the local NZ community

[PeeJay]

No then, you are a liar, because if you did indeed have a business that exported and " a Side line" that imported, you would have a clue what you are talking about, because now you say that you cant claim the GST you pay to customs on imported vehicles (because its impossible, as it is a duty by another name), but YOU claim it back form the IRD "because they adminsiter GST, not customs".
Peejay, if you want to be taken seriously, don't make shit up.
You are demonstrating that you do not understand the costs of importing vehicles and parts as a business into New Zealand.

You clearly have no idea.:weird:

Has someone hidden your pills or are you naturally an idiot?

[Edbear]

Presume that if its "not an insignificant problem" is another way of saying its a significant problem. Really?
Considering its refunded in what 6 weeks?
If your business is running so close to the wire that this is a significant problem, perhaps you should be doing something else.



Say it as often as you like, still wont make it true
The tax free threshold also applies to you, so if its really a problem for you, just bring in shipments at less than $400 and you wont have to stump up for gst
The other side to this is, if a private importer brings something in at more than $400, they are liable for gst

IE the same threshold rules apply to both a commercial importer and a private importer

But you and Ed already know this but dont want to say because it undermines your argument

My "argument" per se is only to inform about the realities of importing. As NZ agent I have minimum order quantities to meet and of course it would be wildly impractical to import less, in fact my orders always exceed the minimum.

In summary, my example should show I am not creaming it and importers are subject to a lot of costs inNZ so a direct comparison with overseas prices is not realistic. I try to hold costs and prices down but count on increasing volumes to make it worthwhile.

[PeeJay]

My "argument" per se is only to inform about the realities of importing. As NZ agent I have minimum order quantities to meet and of course it would be wildly impractical to import less, in fact my orders always exceed the minimum.

In summary, my example should show I am not creaming it and importers are subject to a lot of costs inNZ so a direct comparison with overseas prices is not realistic. I try to hold costs and prices down but count on increasing volumes to make it worthwhile.

I am sure you're not creaming it.
The point is it is your choice.

As a private importer if I bring in a $1000 item, and you as a business bring in a $1000 item who actually has the most costs associated with the import?

We are both charged gst, you get yours refunded, I dont

I pay with after tax earnings ie in order to pay my $1000 + $150 I have to earn approx $1400
You pay with tax deductible funds

Any other associated costs, eg couriers brokers etc are tax deductible for you, Not for me.

Other costs you may incur, warehousing, advertising etc, they are all to do with how you run your business after you have imported your goods, Work from home ( and claim tax deductions on a sizable amount of your private expenses) or rent/own a large warehouse, more tax deductions, these are all choices you make.
nothing to do with the actual importing.

Now perhaps you need to sell the $1000 widget for $1500 to help pay for all this and give yourself a few dollars in the pocket, again your choice, and my choice to spend my money elsewhere.

Bottom line, if its not worth your while to bring in $1000 widgets for resale than dont do it. Your choice.
But the idea that I should have to pay more, or have to buy from you "as the official importer" if I want a widget sucks

At the end of the day
Consumers dont buy a battery from you because they wish to support your lifestyle, they buy a battery because they want a battery.
You dont bring in batteries because you are a nice guy, you bring them in because you can see there is a dollar to be made.

[Edbear]

I am sure you're not creaming it.
The point is it is your choice.

As a private importer if I bring in a $1000 item, and you as a business bring in a $1000 item who actually has the most costs associated with the import?

We are both charged gst, you get yours refunded, I dont

I pay with after tax earnings ie in order to pay my $1000 + $150 I have to earn approx $1400
You pay with tax deductible funds

Any other associated costs, eg couriers brokers etc are tax deductible for you, Not for me.

Other costs you may incur, warehousing, advertising etc, they are all to do with how you run your business after you have imported your goods, Work from home ( and claim tax deductions on a sizable amount of your private expenses) or rent/own a large warehouse, more tax deductions, these are all choices you make.
nothing to do with the actual importing.

Now perhaps you need to sell the $1000 widget for $1500 to help pay for all this and give yourself a few dollars in the pocket, again your choice, and my choice to spend my money elsewhere.

Bottom line, if its not worth your while to bring in $1000 widgets for resale than dont do it. Your choice.
But the idea that I should have to pay more, or have to buy from you "as the official importer" if I want a widget sucks

At the end of the day
Consumers dont buy a battery from you because they wish to support your lifestyle, they buy a battery because they want a battery.
You dont bring in batteries because you are a nice guy, you bring them in because you can see there is a dollar to be made.

All quite true. I saw the potential of this brand and now my accountant opines I have created the golden goose, all I need now is to hang on to it long enough to harvest the golden eggs.

The truth is that I was prepared to take a risk and invest two years and probably in excess of $100k to ensure it would work. Without the support of my wife and certain key individuals both here on KB and in the market, I could have lost my shirt. This is why most don't try it as it does take this commitment to do it.

Having sole agency makes it simple for the manufacturer and gives the consumer a place to go with any questions or concerns and to have warranty issues addressed quickly. I have always gonebeynd the termsof the warranty in favour of my customers and this is something you won't get as a private importer.

What Shorai has done though, is required me to address all warranty issues whether the battery was bought from me or my dealers or was imported privately. Not many would do that, either.

[Clockwork]

Well I guess that makes every Govt. on the planet socialist then eh? There is no Govt. sanctioned market anywhere in the world that has absolutely no form of control or regulation.
Idiot.
Maybe, but what's your point?

Retard.

[FastFred]

if you want to be taken seriously, don't make shit up.

Too true SS90, one shouldn't exaggerate their experience and make shit up, in the end people see through it.

GST is not a Duty by another name, its a Tax, a Tax on Goods or Service, Duty is something else, and usually imposed to influence consumption and/or collect extra tax revenue and/or protect local interests.

A little research may be in order to understand the accounting principles involved, and if one can apply a little intelligence, search engines like Google are good for improving your understanding of nearly any subject.

[Brian d marge]

I'm a god. Get over it

Stephen

[SS90]

Too true SS90, one shouldn't exaggerate their experience and make shit up, in the end people see through it.

GST is not a Duty by another name, its a Tax, a Tax on Goods or Service, Duty is something else, and usually imposed to influence consumption and/or collect extra tax revenue and/or protect local interests.

A little research may be in order to understand the accounting principles involved, and if one can apply a little intelligence, search engines like Google are good for improving your understanding of nearly any subject.
As usual, we have a teenager with no experience thinking he knows everything once again.

You are, of course, as always, wrong.

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable, it is, simply a duty, under the guise of GST, there is no duty on imported vehicles, but there is GST, and in the case of imported vehicles, this GST is not recoverable.

This is a duty, by another name.
Other countries, like, say anywhere in the EU, have a duty (depending on where it was made, which the concept of "Triangulation" comes in to play), and they also have VAT (or MWST as it is called here)

When you pay your duty and MWST, as a company you are given a credit for the recoverable
MWST, offset against the duty you have to pay, a simply paperwork process, but it avoids your quarterly MWST return being a pain in the are for the tax department.

Whereas, in NZ, there is no duty (unique in the world in my experience), but the VAT (GST) is not recoverable.

This, is in effect, a duty.

Also, in the EU, cubic capacity plays a part in the amount of duty you pay, whereas, NZ, it is calculated on the purchase price of the bike (plus shipping), regardless of displacement.

This is one reason why bikes in NZ are slightly higher than other countries, and also, pre GST days (when there was a duty) why some companies imported certain bikes 80% complete (you only need 20% of the bike to be assembled here for it to qualify for "NZ assembled"

Same situation with Toyota, by the end of it, they where just fitting trims, but enough to qualify as "NZ assembled"

Also, Puma helmets (anyone old enough to have hair on their cock will remember them)

As protectionism for NZ manufacturing, there was a duty on helmets in NZ, right up till about 8 years ago, enabling Puma to be able to manufacture helmets in NZ (and employ staff, who paid tax), and "keep the country working", eventually, Puma simply started importing the parts, to the point whee, like Toyota, it was a joke, as Puma clearly where just part assemblers, and that isn't manufacturing, eventually, the duty on helmets was reduced to 0, and the market was able to grow, and Puma simply had everything made off shore with their name on it.

How many people lost their job?

Where as, in the UK, their is no VAT on helmets at all, and, the prices are very low compared to NZ (volume sales is lime that)

Really, people who actively pursue the idea of going around NZ distributors, and then bleat about it just do not realise the harm they are doing.

Sometimes, NZ prices are harsh, but I assure anyone that has the age and experience to understand that the world is bigger than the stains on their bed sheet, most NZ wholesalers have better stock on hand than most European distributors. This all comes at a cost, both in capital outlay, and overheads.

A business MUST make 20% to be viable, and you would be surprised tom learn than most bike shops don't, they are an anomaly.

[FastFred]

I was agreeing with you and am a little surprised by your over reaction .....

SS90, paranoia is not normal, and resorting to abuse when you think you are being challenged shows some inner problem.

looking back over some of your other posts, my guess is, there is a big need for attention by exaggerating your credentials.

If you would like to be at ease socially and comfortable in your own skin, there are professional people you can talk to that would help you get some perspective on your life and real balance to your self image.

[Robert Taylor]

As usual, we have a teenager with no experience thinking he knows everything once again.

You are, of course, as always, wrong.

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable, it is, simply a duty, under the guise of GST, there is no duty on imported vehicles, but there is GST, and in the case of imported vehicles, this GST is not recoverable.

This is a duty, by another name.
Other countries, like, say anywhere in the EU, have a duty (depending on where it was made, which the concept of "Triangulation" comes in to play), and they also have VAT (or MWST as it is called here)

When you pay your duty and MWST, as a company you are given a credit for the recoverable
MWST, offset against the duty you have to pay, a simply paperwork process, but it avoids your quarterly MWST return being a pain in the are for the tax department.

Whereas, in NZ, there is no duty (unique in the world in my experience), but the VAT (GST) is not recoverable.

This, is in effect, a duty.

Also, in the EU, cubic capacity plays a part in the amount of duty you pay, whereas, NZ, it is calculated on the purchase price of the bike (plus shipping), regardless of displacement.

This is one reason why bikes in NZ are slightly higher than other countries, and also, pre GST days (when there was a duty) why some companies imported certain bikes 80% complete (you only need 20% of the bike to be assembled here for it to qualify for "NZ assembled"

Same situation with Toyota, by the end of it, they where just fitting trims, but enough to qualify as "NZ assembled"

Also, Puma helmets (anyone old enough to have hair on their cock will remember them)

As protectionism for NZ manufacturing, there was a duty on helmets in NZ, right up till about 8 years ago, enabling Puma to be able to manufacture helmets in NZ (and employ staff, who paid tax), and "keep the country working", eventually, Puma simply started importing the parts, to the point whee, like Toyota, it was a joke, as Puma clearly where just part assemblers, and that isn't manufacturing, eventually, the duty on helmets was reduced to 0, and the market was able to grow, and Puma simply had everything made off shore with their name on it.

How many people lost their job?

Where as, in the UK, their is no VAT on helmets at all, and, the prices are very low compared to NZ (volume sales is lime that)

Really, people who actively pursue the idea of going around NZ distributors, and then bleat about it just do not realise the harm they are doing.

Sometimes, NZ prices are harsh, but I assure anyone that has the age and experience to understand that the world is bigger than the stains on their bed sheet, most NZ wholesalers have better stock on hand than most European distributors. This all comes at a cost, both in capital outlay, and overheads.

A business MUST make 20% to be viable, and you would be surprised tom learn than most bike shops don't, they are an anomaly.




Very very well said. Of course its not only the motorcycle industry that is in strife. I have to wonder aloud how many that come onto this forum bleating away are themselves part of industries or retailing that are struggling to compete / survive with competition from overseas. There is a big picture here and a lot more business closures / job losses and upheaval to follow.

[mashman]

I'm a god. Get over it

Stephen

There you are Son. Can you call your mum please, she's been worried.

[SS90]

I have to wonder aloud how many that come onto this forum bleating away are themselves part of industries or retailing that are struggling to compete / survive with competition from overseas. There is a big picture here and a lot more business closures / job losses and upheaval to follow.

Its not just NZ that's in trouble, and it getting worse, not better.

I can think of several examples of people that have set out planning to "set the world on fire" with low priced accessories, bikes and so on, only to find that to do that, you must cut your margin, which in turn effects the bottom line.

The bike industry in NZ is only 8 months of the year, as an apprentice, we used to restore a Clanet car for the boss during winters, as there was bugger all else to do, this meant, he was subsidising our jobs, meaning, they should have been seasonal.

In Europe, my job is seasonal, my first job we had 2 months (subsidised) holiday (it snows alot the continent) from mid November, till mid January. When I moved further south (colder) it was Mid November till Mid Feb. (unsubsidised, but better monthly pay which made up for it)

Margins on parts are rubbish (20% or less), as the competition for your € is intense. People expect alot for their money, and generally get it.

I see Kiwis are having to pay near $100 an hour for spanner work these days..... That sickens me, but doesn't surprise me. It is a representation of what is required to keep a shop running, with margins reduced on parts, the shortfall needs to be made up from skilled labour charges, and to get skilled Labour, the business must pay skilled labour wages, which must again be reflected in the charge out rate.

I don't begrudge people questioning high parts prices, but you need to understand what is required to have a productive shop in New Zealand. Be grateful you have an industry.

I cant even buy sulphuric acid from a store in town..... It has to be ordered in... Why? As the wholesaler said "everyone complains of the price when I stock it, saying they can get it cheaper in Ebay, so I only get it in to order".... Coming soon to a town near YOU!

[FastFred]

As usual, we have a teenager with no experience thinking he knows everything once again. You are, of course, as always, wrong.

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable, it is, simply a duty, under the guise of GST, there is no duty on imported vehicles, but there is GST, and in the case of imported vehicles, this GST is not recoverable.



I was agreeing with you and am a little surprised by your over reaction .....

SS90, paranoia is not normal, and resorting to abuse when you think you are being challenged shows some inner problem.


GST paid to customs not recoverable for an importer?????

Yes it is. If you had followed my earlier advice to do some research and develop a knowledge of the accounting principles involved you would have seen that the GST paid by a GST registered importer on the expense of importing is claimed back against the GST received on the sale of the imported good.

So yes an importer claims the GST paid to Customs back from the IRD.


GST is administered by IRD not customs
Customs charge you gst on your import, IRD refund it.

But you actually have to ask IRD not Customs


SS90 your argument would sound less like wiffile if you could post a reference or two to back up your opinions I have posted a ref below to back myself up lets see if you can do the same.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/gst-registering/gst-about/

How does GST work?

GST is a tax that you collect on behalf of the government. You charge GST in your sales and income and claim it back for your purchases and expenses. You then calculate the difference in your GST return to work out if you have to make a GST payment to us or if your receive a GST refund from us.

[SS90]

GST paid to customs not recoverable for an importer?????

Yes it is. If you had followed my earlier advice to do some research and develop a knowledge of the accounting principles involved you would have seen that the GST paid by a GST registered importer on the expense of importing is claimed back against the GST received on the sale of the imported good.

So yes an importer claims the GST paid to Customs back from the IRD.

SS90 your argument would sound less like wiffile if you could post a reference or two to back up your opinions I have posted a ref below to back myself up lets see if you can do the same.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/gst-registering/gst-about/

How does GST work?

GST is a tax that you collect on behalf of the government. You charge GST in your sales and income and claim it back for your purchases and expenses. You then calculate the difference in your GST return to work out if you have to make a GST payment to us or if your receive a GST refund from us.

Once again a pimply wnake roof a teenager gets it wrong

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable.

Go one then smart ass, start a company, import vehicles into New Zealand and claim back that GST payment, go on, prove me wrong.
If you followed the link I posted a few back, you will see the words on the customs site, GST on imported vehicles IS NOT RECOVERABLE.

[FastFred]

Once again a pimply wnake roof a teenager gets it wrong

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable. Go one then smart ass, prove me wrong.

I have already shown you to be wrong by referencing the Govt site.

And your abuse just makes you look like a nutter... :bleh:

[SS90]

So yes, one of the reasons imported bikes are more expensive in NZ is that the 15% GST (and 15% of the shipping costs) are not recoverable.

This is one of the reasons bike prices in NZ are less favorable to some other countries.
Ironically, when you buy bikes from Japan, if the were not produced in Japan (like Ducati) they would have been subject to an incoming Tarrif, which part of is the refunded to the exporting company in Japan.

Its not much (as low as the equivalent of a couple of hundred dollars in most cases), but in a container of 30 bikes, it's a slight double nibble at the cookie for exporters.

[FastFred]

So yes, one of the reasons imported bikes are more expensive in NZ is that the 15% GST (and 15% of the shipping costs) are not recoverable.

Nope, you realy should leave this alone....


http://www.customs.govt.nz/features/charges/refunds/Pages/default.aspx#

To down to "refunds of duty for commercial importers."

Peejay, if you are going to tell fibs, make them believable and if you are cheating on your tax, don't post it on the web!

As your wrong again SS90 or more worryingly your being deliberately deceptive.

Its talking GST refunds for damaged or re exported goods. No where does it say you cant claim the GST paid to customs for a motor vehicle imported for resale by a GST registered business.

Taken from the Govt web site you posted the link too.

Refunds of duty for commercial importers.

You can apply for a refund of duty when:

duty is paid in error
a concession is later approved for the goods
the goods are of faulty manufacture
the goods were in a damaged or deteriorated condition prior to leaving Customs' control
the goods were destroyed, pillaged or lost prior to leaving Customs' control.

To apply for a refund, complete an Application for refund of revenue (NZCS 223) form and send it, along with supporting documentation, to the Customs office where the goods were cleared. Refunds will not be issued where the amount of the refund is NZ$50 or less.

The following rules apply for refunds:

If you use the broker deferred credit facility or have paid by cash, your refund will be made by cheque direct to you.
If you are paying cash, and your payment has not yet been received, we will adjust your entry to reflect the correct charges.
If you use the deferred payment scheme your account will be credited with the amount directly.

GST

If you are registered for GST purposes, you will not receive refunds of GST. The only exception is for those importers who are on the deferred payment scheme where your refund application for adjustment is processed prior to the due date of payment. In this instance, the GST adjustment can be made to your account.

If you have applied for a GST refund and use a broker deferred credit facility, your broker will need to lodge an adjustment application with us. Applications need to be made within one calendar month from the date of entry clearance. For more information contact the National Credit Control Unit in Auckland, phone +64 9 359 6521.

For more information on refunds of duty and GST contact the Trade Assurance section of your local Customs office.​

[SS90]

Nope, you realy should leave this alone....



Wrong again SS90 or more worryingly your being deliberately deceptive. Its talking GST refunds for damaged or re exported goods. No where does it say you cant claim the GST paid to customs for a motor vehicle imported for resale by a GST registered business.

Taken from the Govt web site.

You can apply for a refund of duty when:

duty is paid in error
a concession is later approved for the goods
the goods are of faulty manufacture
the goods were in a damaged or deteriorated condition prior to leaving Customs' control
the goods were destroyed, pillaged or lost prior to leaving Customs' control.

To apply for a refund, complete an Application for refund of revenue (NZCS 223) form and send it, along with supporting documentation, to the Customs office where the goods were cleared. Refunds will not be issued where the amount of the refund is NZ$50 or less.

The following rules apply for refunds:

If you use the broker deferred credit facility or have paid by cash, your refund will be made by cheque direct to you.
If you are paying cash, and your payment has not yet been received, we will adjust your entry to reflect the correct charges.
If you use the deferred payment scheme your account will be credited with the amount directly.

GST

If you are registered for GST purposes, you will not receive refunds of GST. The only exception is for those importers who are on the deferred payment scheme where your refund application for adjustment is processed prior to the due date of payment. In this instance, the GST adjustment can be made to your account.

If you have applied for a GST refund and use a broker deferred credit facility, your broker will need to lodge an adjustment application with us. Applications need to be made within one calendar month from the date of entry clearance. For more information contact the National Credit Control Unit in Auckland, phone +64 9 359 6521.

For more information on refunds of duty and GST contact the Trade Assurance section of your local Customs office.​

:rolleyes: did you actually read this?

Ill give you a wee hand

"If you are registered for GST purposes, you will not receive refunds of GST. The only exception is for those importers who are on the deferred payment scheme where your refund application for adjustment is processed prior to the due date of payment. In this instance, the GST adjustment can be made to your account. "

[Edbear]

GST paid to customs not recoverable for an importer?????

Yes it is. If you had followed my earlier advice to do some research and develop a knowledge of the accounting principles involved you would have seen that the GST paid by a GST registered importer on the expense of importing is claimed back against the GST received on the sale of the imported good.

So yes an importer claims the GST paid to Customs back from the IRD.

SS90 your argument would sound less like wiffile if you could post a reference or two to back up your opinions I have posted a ref below to back myself up lets see if you can do the same.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/gst-registering/gst-about/

How does GST work?

GST is a tax that you collect on behalf of the government. You charge GST in your sales and income and claim it back for your purchases and expenses. You then calculate the difference in your GST return to work out if you have to make a GST payment to us or if your receive a GST refund from us.


:rolleyes: did you actually read this?

Ill give you a wee hand

"If you are registered for GST purposes, you will not receive refunds of GST. The only exception is for those importers who are on the deferred payment scheme where your refund application for adjustment is processed prior to the due date of payment. In this instance, the GST adjustment can be made to your account. "

Sorry SS90, but you misunderstand the legislation.

[SS90]

Sorry SS90, but you misunderstand the legislation.

No I don't mate, I imported bikes into NZ for some years, and now into Austria and Germany. i have a good understanding.
GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.

[FastFred]

:"If you are registered for GST purposes, you will not receive refunds of GST. The only exception is for those importers who are on the deferred payment scheme

This page is about claiming for damaged goods or goods imported and then re exported and does not mention motor vehicles imported into NZ for re sale.

You are starting to worry me, either you don't know what your on about, or you can't stop talking rubbish when everything is starting to point to you being wrong.

[Edbear]

No I don't mate, I imported bikes into NZ for some years, and now into Austria and Germany. i have a good understanding.
GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.

A good friend of mine is a car importer, has been for as long as I've known him which is nearly 30 years. I will ask him this afternoon and get back to you.

[FastFred]

No I don't mate, I imported bikes into NZ for some years, and now into Austria and Germany. i have a good understanding.

GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.

And yet you cant actually post a link to a Govt web page that actually says that ....... :weird: ... now that's odd.

[SS90]

A good friend of mine is a car importer, has been for as long as I've known him which is nearly 30 years. I will ask him this afternoon and get back to you.

Great, I love it when other people from the industry give their input!

[FastFred]

I imported bikes into NZ for some years, and now into Austria and Germany. i have a good understanding. GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.


Sorry SS90, but you misunderstand the legislation.

Misunderstands the legislation!!! possibly, certainly posted a link to the wrong piece of legislation.


Great, I love it when other people from the industry give their input!

Yes lets hear from Edbear about what his friend has to say, someone who has been successful in the industry and is responsible for paying the bills, they will know for sure.

[Edbear]

The short answer is yes, but as always it is not so simple. If he imports a car, he pays GST on the value of the car and on the fees that attract NZ GST, as GST is a NZ tax. This amount is claimable as it is with me importing the batteries. They are goods and subject to GST and that amount is entered into your GST return as GST already paid, therefore counts against any GST due. Same with my fees, I get charged GST so it is claimable.

However, with vehicles there are a range of charges and fees that the Accountant will go through and claim what is claimable.

Basically it seems that if NZ charges GST, that payment is claimable. Sometimes it is not so clear, hence the need for an accountant.

[Robert Taylor]

The short answer is yes, but as always it is not so simple. If he imports a car, he pays GST on the value of the car and on the fees that attract NZ GST, as GST is a NZ tax. This amount is claimable as it is with me importing the batteries. They are goods and subject to GST and that amount is entered into your GST return as GST already paid, therefore counts against any GST due. Same with my fees, I get charged GST so it is claimable.

However, with vehicles there are a range of charges and fees that the Accountant will go through and claim what is claimable.

Basically it seems that if NZ charges GST, that payment is claimable. Sometimes it is not so clear, hence the need for an accountant.

Irrespective of this tax merry go round ( and the cost to business )that occurs there are several main points here:

1) Most if not all small businesses in NZ are struggling to maintain or achieve a reasonable operating surplus, because the cost of being in business is very high and you have to constantly jump through hoops. Many retailers are going to the wall and there will be more.

2) If a consumer pays gst as part of his purchase price when he buys goods from a store in NZ then why should he / she not have to always pay clearances and gst when the goods are imported privately? This is one of many reasons NZ businesses are disadvantaged in the current environment of open slather.

3) Its apparent that almost no-one cares that people are losing their jobs hand over fist in part because of this environment .

[Edbear]

Irrespective of this tax merry go round ( and the cost to business )that occurs there are several main points here:

1) Most if not all small businesses in NZ are struggling to maintain or achieve a reasonable operating surplus, because the cost of being in business is very high and you have to constantly jump through hoops. Many retailers are going to the wall and there will be more.

2) If a consumer pays gst as part of his purchase price when he buys goods from a store in NZ then why should he / she not have to always pay clearances and gst when the goods are imported privately? This is one of many reasons NZ businesses are disadvantaged in the current environment of open slather.

3) Its apparent that almost no-one cares that people are losing their jobs hand over fist in part because of this environment .

I'm not sure how that compares with importers in other countries. Do you know if the rules are different?

One of the biggest costs to a business is the wage bill. A lot of people have no idea how much has to be sold to not just cover the wages but make a profit on them which can be reinvested.

I simply couldn't afford to employ another person, I don't even pay myself a wage.

[bogan]

Irrespective of this tax merry go round ( and the cost to business )that occurs there are several main points here:

1) Most if not all small businesses in NZ are struggling to maintain or achieve a reasonable operating surplus, because the cost of being in business is very high and you have to constantly jump through hoops. Many retailers are going to the wall and there will be more.

2) If a consumer pays gst as part of his purchase price when he buys goods from a store in NZ then why should he / she not have to always pay clearances and gst when the goods are imported privately? This is one of many reasons NZ businesses are disadvantaged in the current environment of open slather.

3) Its apparent that almost no-one cares that people are losing their jobs hand over fist in part because of this environment .

1) Is this due mainly to lack of income due to international competition, or running costs (wages would be the big one I guess) of doing business in NZ.

2) I'd like to see this rectified too, but the logistics of doing so are extremely difficult. What I don't want to see if every imported item being subject to the 60 (ish?) dollar inspection duty.

3) The failure to adapt to this environment is what causing job losses. The vast majority of people I know (and certainly myself), would (and do when possible) pay the extra 15% to buy locally, most would even go to 30%. You certainly can't blame it all on GST. How do you feel about the products only available here at double or triple the price? should we buy them and look at it as charity? or should we encourage them to drop the price by buying elsewhere?

[Bassmatt]

3) Its apparent that almost no-one cares that people are losing their jobs hand over fist in part because of this environment .

I think thats a little unfair Robert and disingenious. In my case, and many others I would expect,the it's not a case of shall I buy this in NZ or import it myself, its a matter of I cannot afford to buy it in New Zealand, full stop.
I was never going to pay $600 for a radiator fan, for example, and I imagine the $600 seat cowl that has been mentioned would be in the same boat. In these type of cases NZ business it not missing out because the money was not going to be spent regardless.
Had I not been able to source a cheap second hand fan from overseas my bike would have been parked up until I could have sorted something cheaper out locally.
That may have taken 6 months or longer, so thats tyres, chains, oil, chain lube, etc etc that isn't being bought or worn out in that time period.
In fact I would almost argue that its been a good thing for the motorcycle industry here that I found a reasonably priced replacement because otherwise they would have seen $0 from me in the interim.
It's not as black and white as you portray and personally I am desperately concerned with the state of the economy, for my fellow NZers as well as myself.

[Ocean1]

1) Is this due mainly to lack of income due to international competition, or running costs (wages would be the big one I guess) of doing business in NZ.?

I'd love to see an impartial, professional anaysis of cost of business here vs Au, US. Certainly there's economies of scale driving end-user prices but that doesn't explain all of the difference. If Robert's anything like me he probably gets particularly annoyed about compliance costs. Like the latest IRD ruling that employee out of town accomodation costs are to be taxed as PAYE. Bizzare.


3) The failure to adapt to this environment is what causing job losses. The vast majority of people I know (and certainly myself), would (and do when possible) pay the extra 15% to buy locally, most would even go to 30%. You certainly can't blame it all on GST. How do you feel about the products only available here at double or triple the price? should we buy them and look at it as charity? or should we encourage them to drop the price by buying elsewhere?

Gotta agree. In fact my trigger point is closer to 200%, if delivery is intercity courier times. Even at that I find myself resorting to off-shore suppliers fairly often.

[PeeJay]

No I don't mate, I imported bikes into NZ for some years, and now into Austria and Germany. i have a good understanding.
GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.

Well SS90 if you werent registered for GST you wouldnt be able to claim it back.
Maybe this was your situation?
But certainly if your business is gst registered you can claim.

Otherwise you were horribly mixing up the roles of Customs and the IRD with regard to the administration of GST

[PeeJay]

The short answer is yes, but as always it is not so simple. If he imports a car, he pays GST on the value of the car and on the fees that attract NZ GST, as GST is a NZ tax. This amount is claimable as it is with me importing the batteries. They are goods and subject to GST and that amount is entered into your GST return as GST already paid, therefore counts against any GST due. Same with my fees, I get charged GST so it is claimable.

However, with vehicles there are a range of charges and fees that the Accountant will go through and claim what is claimable.

Basically it seems that if NZ charges GST, that payment is claimable. Sometimes it is not so clear, hence the need for an accountant.

There are numerous tax deductible charges that are zero rated for gst purposes so no actual gst refund.
But any charge that attracts gst, gst portion can be claimed.
Whether you are importing batteries or cars or shocks, the principles are the same.
cheers

[FastFred]

GST is administered by IRD not customs Customs charge you gst on your import, IRD refund it.


you are a liar, because if you did indeed have a business that imported, you would have a clue what you are talking about. Peejay, if you want to be taken seriously, don't make shit up. You clearly have no idea.:weird:

Its certainly not Peejay who has been making shit up.


The short answer is yes, If he imports a car, he pays GST on the value of the car and on the fees that attract NZ GST, as GST is a NZ tax. This amount is claimable

Just like you wanted SS, Edbear asked his friend in the industry and he has confirmed that you are wrong, and reports that for some one involved in importing and selling motor vehicles the GST collected by Customs on their imports is recoverable.


I imported bikes into NZ for some years, GST is not recoverable on imported vehicles.

SS you make a big song and dance about your industry knowledge and experience but totaly wrong about an important thing like GST and you became abusive when challenged. Now you can jump up and down and wave a pitch fork all you like but loud mouth, bull shitting internet bullies don't frighten me.

SS you were happy to abuse others so I am calling you on it.

SS90 You were wrong about GST in a way you shouldn't have been given your claimed industry background.

So I guess your just another meaningless net troll who is either really stupid or your pants are on fire, liar liar.

[Robert Taylor]

I think thats a little unfair Robert and disingenious. In my case, and many others I would expect,the it's not a case of shall I buy this in NZ or import it myself, its a matter of I cannot afford to buy it in New Zealand, full stop.
I was never going to pay $600 for a radiator fan, for example, and I imagine the $600 seat cowl that has been mentioned would be in the same boat. In these type of cases NZ business it not missing out because the money was not going to be spent regardless.
Had I not been able to source a cheap second hand fan from overseas my bike would have been parked up until I could have sorted something cheaper out locally.
That may have taken 6 months or longer, so thats tyres, chains, oil, chain lube, etc etc that isn't being bought or worn out in that time period.
In fact I would almost argue that its been a good thing for the motorcycle industry here that I found a reasonably priced replacement because otherwise they would have seen $0 from me in the interim.
It's not as black and white as you portray and personally I am desperately concerned with the state of the economy, for my fellow NZers as well as myself.

If you scroll through my previous posts you will see that I am not in any way attempting to justify price disparities that are clearly huge. Thats another sub-subject. I was focusing on the inconsistency of tax collection and how it disadvantages businesses.

[Robert Taylor]

Its certainly not Peejay who has been making shit up.



Just like you wanted SS, Edbear asked his friend in the industry and he has confirmed that you are wrong, and reports that for some one involved in importing and selling motor vehicles the GST collected by Customs on their imports is recoverable.



SS you make a big song and dance about your industry knowledge and experience but totaly wrong about an important thing like GST and you became abusive when challenged. Now you can jump up and down and wave a pitch fork all you like but loud mouth, bull shitting internet bullies don't frighten me.

SS you were happy to abuse others so I am calling you on it.

SS90 You were wrong about GST in a way you shouldn't have been given your claimed industry background.

So I guess your just another meaningless net troll who is either really stupid or your pants are on fire, liar liar.

Edbear confirmed how complicated it all is, you confirmed how easy it is to act like a child.

[Robert Taylor]

There are numerous tax deductible charges that are zero rated for gst purposes so no actual gst refund.
But any charge that attracts gst, gst portion can be claimed.
Whether you are importing batteries or cars or shocks, the principles are the same.
cheers

And there are considerable costs that businesses accrue paying accountancy firms to wade through this minefield. Another cost of many that has to be passed on.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm not sure how that compares with importers in other countries. Do you know if the rules are different?

One of the biggest costs to a business is the wage bill. A lot of people have no idea how much has to be sold to not just cover the wages but make a profit on them which can be reinvested.

I simply couldn't afford to employ another person, I don't even pay myself a wage.

Many Australian companies are also hurting and their exchange rate against North Mexico dollars is even less favourable.

[Bassmatt]

If you scroll through my previous posts you will see that I am not in any way attempting to justify price disparities that are clearly huge

Thats another sub-subject. I was focusing on the inconsistency of tax collection and how it disadvantages businesses.

99% of people buying offshore are doing so because of these huge price disparities.

15% GST on imports under $400 isnt going to save the industry or the economy. Businesses get plenty of tax advantages over individuals and rort the shit out of them too (not suggesting you do, of course)

[Edbear]

And there are considerable costs that businesses accrue paying accountancy firms to wade through this minefield. Another cost of many that has to be passed on.


Many Australian companies are also hurting and their exchange rate against North Mexico dollars is even less favourable.

This is what a lot maybe don't think about. You pay x-dollars for a product and sell it for x+ dollars to make a profit. Out of that profit margin, come all costs associated with stocking and selling it. In a competitive environment, (and we are now competing against overseas companies in an international market place), you can't set that margin too high, or you won't sell so you have to very carefully consider your costs.

Average wage is say, $35k, so if you have two staff you have to make enough to cover $70k, so if you imported $1m of stock and your margin was 25%, selling it for $1.25m, and if you could sell all of it in the year, out of that $250k, comes all costs. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out how tight it is.

My old accountant back in the '90's said if I wasn't making a GP of 33% I wasn't viable and that was for a one-man business with minimal overheads. So taking my purchse price exclusive of GST and doubling it to make a retail price Inclusive of GST, gave me about that margin. Eg: $100 cost exclusive, to $200 retail inclusive.

Last year I actually bought $20k more stock than I sold and last period I bought $6km more than I sold, then added the expenses to that leading to a major loss for the year and for last period. The annual loss is carried forward to offset against this year, should I make a profit, but I got a refund of GST for last period of $4k which went straight back into stock. Bear in mind I am as yet considered a small business with no employees so multiply everything many fold for a large business with several staff.

Australia is worse off than NZ and even their mineral wealth is failing them now. Talk to most German business men and they will tell you we have it sweet here!

[HenryDorsetCase]

99% of people buying offshore are doing so because of these huge price disparities.

15% GST on imports under $400 isnt going to save the industry or the economy. Businesses get plenty of tax advantages over individuals and rort the shit out of them too (not suggesting you do, of course)

Ive said it before but I think it worth repeating: It does not appear to me there is any will to lower the threshold, because for the Gubblemunt it is a straight cost-benefit analysis: How much will it COST to lower the threshold, vs how much will they BENEFIT, i.e. how much extra revenue will they receive. I am firmly of the opinion that Treasury will have crunched those numbers, if not recently, at least when GST was increased: because if ever there was a time to to do it, that was it. I think we can infer therefore that there is no will to do it, at present anyway.

The only way that might change is if the retailers are successful in their campaigns: but given they were not successful in banning parallel importing, I suggest it is unlikely. Maybe if it becomes an election issue next time round?

[Edbear]

99% of people buying offshore are doing so because of these huge price disparities.

15% GST on imports under $400 isnt going to save the industry or the economy. Businesses get plenty of tax advantages over individuals and rort the shit out of them too (not suggesting you do, of course)

Therein lies the problem, or issue. I tried to keep the retail price within reason of the US MSRP, so took the MSRP and added freight and GST to give me a base for structuring the business. I also tried to give my dealers a decent margin and gave them somewhat more than they would get from other battery suppliers as the technology was new and untested here, so encouraging them to actively market Shorai, making my margin to them as low as I could go and lower than my accountant thought was ideal. I cannot offer my dealers any better price without going out of business.

Bear in mind that my prices are artificially low and not reflective of the usual situation where the business has a lot more infrastructure to pay for which would require the batteries to be about double the current RRP.

[PeeJay]

Irrespective of this tax merry go round ( and the cost to business )that occurs there are several main points here:

1) Most if not all small businesses in NZ are struggling to maintain or achieve a reasonable operating surplus, because the cost of being in business is very high and you have to constantly jump through hoops. Many retailers are going to the wall and there will be more.

2) If a consumer pays gst as part of his purchase price when he buys goods from a store in NZ then why should he / she not have to always pay clearances and gst when the goods are imported privately? This is one of many reasons NZ businesses are disadvantaged in the current environment of open slather.

3) Its apparent that almost no-one cares that people are losing their jobs hand over fist in part because of this environment .

1) the first part of your statement has some truth in it, but the cost of doing business is not the whole reason. Not even the major part of the reason. Its the whyfores and wherefores of the way you are doing business. I guess a business like yours which relies on demand for a non essential/luxury imported item will always struggle when times are tough for your potential customers. You are in the same boat as most importers of non essential goods.

2) I guess its true in your mind, thats why you keep saying it.

3) One of the best drivers for domestic employment is a lower exchange rate.
But that would push you even closer to the wall.
But kiwi jobs would benefit.
What to do? how do I have my cake and eat it as well?
At least you would be sending less money offshore to support workers in Sweden, Japan, China, America, and instead that money would stay here and support Kiwi workers.
Which is what you want, isnt it?


inconsistency of tax collection and how it ADVANTAGES businesses
fixed it for ya

[jasonu]

Many Australian companies are also hurting and their exchange rate against North Mexico dollars is even less favourable.

Southern Canada if you don't mind...

[PeeJay]

Ive said it before but I think it worth repeating: It does not appear to me there is any will to lower the threshold, because for the Gubblemunt it is a straight cost-benefit analysis: How much will it COST to lower the threshold, vs how much will they BENEFIT, i.e. how much extra revenue will they receive. I am firmly of the opinion that Treasury will have crunched those numbers, if not recently, at least when GST was increased: because if ever there was a time to to do it, that was it. I think we can infer therefore that there is no will to do it, at present anyway.

The only way that might change is if the retailers are successful in their campaigns: but given they were not successful in banning parallel importing, I suggest it is unlikely. Maybe if it becomes an election issue next time round?

Total agreement. Fiddling with GSt etc isnt going to save anyone. There has to be a fundamental change in the way people do business, taking into account modern technologies.

In NZ we already have one of the lowest business compliance cost regimes in the western world (despite RT )
GST is one of the simplest consumer taxes in the world

My way of looking at it, if your business isnt working, first place to look is in the mirror.
Ask yourself why I am doing this?
Many business's fail in NZ because a pragmatic business approach is overshadowed by the ego of the owner. They will run it till there is nothing left, blame all and sundry for their demise, except themselves of course.
On the other hand some business's flourish because of the owners ego, not too many though.

Basically if it isnt working and you cant make it work, do something else.

But if all you have left is blaming the govt, blaming people for not buying from you, blaming whoever, you are on your way to the crapper

[Edbear]

Total agreement. Fiddling with GSt etc isnt going to save anyone. There has to be a fundamental change in the way people do business, taking into account modern technologies.

In NZ we already have one of the lowest business compliance cost regimes in the western world (despite RT )
GST is one of the simplest consumer taxes in the world

My way of looking at it, if your business isnt working, first place to look is in the mirror.
Ask yourself why I am doing this?
Many business's fail in NZ because a pragmatic business approach is overshadowed by the ego of the owner. They will run it till there is nothing left, blame all and sundry for their demise, except themselves of course.
On the other hand some business's flourish because of the owners ego, not too many though.

Basically if it isnt working and you cant make it work, do something else.

But if all you have left is blaming the govt, blaming people for not buying from you, blaming whoever, you are on your way to the crapper

That is true to a point, but not reflective of the WFC. The market has contracted hugely as people stopped spending. People were way overcommitted and deep in debt and the chickens came home to roost. The number of Mortgagee sales is proof of that. Everything has gone up in price, especially the basics, (food, power, fuel), and wages have remained stagnant. There simply isn't the disposable income anymore for non-essential spending.

Witness the trouble Nick Cole is having and the others trying to raise sponsorship. There is large gap between what people want and what they can afford. Everyone would love to get RT to sort their suspension, but how many can actually afford it? Robert, and others like myself, can only go so far to reduce the end cost. My advantage is everyone needs a battery and the Shorai are better value for money even though a bit more to buy initially. You can still ride without Ohlins suspension.

[Headbanger]

All this propaganda and yet I still don't want a Shorai battery or ohlins suspension, But at least the names getting out there aye.....:rolleyes:

[HenryDorsetCase]

All this propaganda and yet I still don't want a Shorai battery or ohlins suspension, But at least the names getting out there aye.....:rolleyes:

Actually, as a very happy user of both, and a retail paying customer, I am happy to recommend both unreservedly.

[imdying]

Actually, as a very happy user of both, and a retail paying customer, I am happy to recommend both unreservedly.Yeah, but you can get both cheaper overseas... funny thing is, only Robert adds value. Still if your overseas Shorai dies, that god bothering piece of shit still has to replace it :laugh:

[Headbanger]

Actually, as a very happy user of both, and a retail paying customer, I am happy to recommend both unreservedly.

And I own a nice pair of shoes :shifty:

I can only wish them both continued success, But these threads are overtly manipulated by both in order to promote their endeavers, which may make them the smart ones, Through Rob could do with a tissue.

Anyone would think operating a business was meant to be easy.

[FastFred]

Its certainly not Peejay who has been making shit up.

SS you were happy to abuse others so I am calling you on it.
SS90 You were wrong about GST in a way you shouldn't have been given your claimed industry background.
So I guess your just another meaningless net troll who is either really stupid or your pants are on fire, liar liar.

I stand by what I said ......


you confirmed how easy it is to act like a child.

There are still a number of successful Scooter businesses around and I hear SS90 was involved in one, but that one went tits up some time ago, the word on the street is, the owners childish ego brought it down, proving that consumers have a choice.


Edbear confirmed how complicated it all is

GST no not at all .....

Edbear confirmed that GST is recoverable. SS90 was adamant it wasn't, tried intimidation to win his point and became abusive when challenged.

Now, I think SS90 has shown that, that won't get you anywhere in business but RT you are free to prove me wrong if you like.


GST is one of the simplest consumer taxes in the world


Agreed

[Bassmatt]

Therein lies the problem, or issue. I tried to keep the retail price within reason of the US MSRP, so took the MSRP and added freight and GST to give me a base for structuring the business. I also tried to give my dealers a decent margin and gave them somewhat more than they would get from other battery suppliers as the technology was new and untested here, so encouraging them to actively market Shorai, making my margin to them as low as I could go and lower than my accountant thought was ideal. I cannot offer my dealers any better price without going out of business.

Bear in mind that my prices are artificially low and not reflective of the usual situation where the business has a lot more infrastructure to pay for which would require the batteries to be about double the current RRP.

I have looked at the price of one shorai battery (excluding freight) from their USA website and compared the same battery from the NZ (yours i presume) website.
In round figures its US$160 excluding freight vs NZ$250.
From my experience buying other products from the US i would expect freight (for a single battery, to me) to be minimum of US$50
At the current exchange rate that works out pretty darn close to the NZ price, and if freight was say $70 I'd be better off buying it here.
Dare I say it, but I think your selling them too cheap Ed.
If I was determined to have a shorai I'd pay NZ$350 to you before I even considered importing my own.
Yeah I know you're still building a market for them and your not making much money, but it does beg the question to the other importers ....if you can do it, why can't they?

[FROSTY]

Once again a pimply wnake roof a teenager gets it wrong

GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable.

Go one then smart ass, start a company, import vehicles into New Zealand and claim back that GST payment, go on, prove me wrong.
If you followed the link I posted a few back, you will see the words on the customs site, GST on imported vehicles IS NOT RECOVERABLE.
Sorry mon I have to step up to the plate here on this one.
My credentials ON THIS SUBJECT. I am the owner of a car dealership that specialises in importing used cars. we import roughly 20-30 cars a month.
When a car arrives in the dealership before any work is done the following applies.
Zero rated -which is the freight
17.5% gst on the port charge
17.5% of the locked exchange rate on the PURCHASE PRICE including agent fees.
So for example
A car with car cost of y250000
Agents fees y85000
Total cost Y335000
Freight $1500
Port fees $95
So of the cost Y335000 (based on exchange of 60)I pay gst on $5583.34. I pay 17.5% customs gst on the nz$paid which is $837.48 and about $15 for port fees.(too lazy to do exact number)
The $837.48 customs gst and $15.00 port gst I claim back every two months from IRD.

For this exersize I wont muddy the waters with the customs gst guys locking for 10 working days at an exchange rate so we will assume gst is calculated "live"
This is not hypothetical drawn from a website this is what I deal with on a day to day basis.

[FastFred]

As usual, we have a teenager with no experience thinking he knows everything once again. You are, of course, as always, wrong. GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable


Once again a pimply wank poof teenager gets it wrong, GST on imported vehicles is not recoverable. Go on then smart ass, go on, prove me wrong. GST on imported vehicles IS NOT RECOVERABLE.

For this motor vehicle importer, GST paid to Customs is recovered by claiming it from the IRD bi monthly against GST owed to them from sales. A not to difficult accounting concept to understand.


The $837.48 and $15.00 I claim back every two months.

So there it is SS90, it turns out that I was right and you were wrong.

And SS90 you didn't have to buy a fight with me over GST, but you did and in spite of your abuse, lies and intimidation this School Boy trumped you. .... :laugh:

Yep and all it took was a little research and some intelligence.

Now I think I can see a commerce degree beckoning me. So when I graduate I will import myself a scooter and you can service it for me.

[Edbear]

All this propaganda and yet I still don't want a Shorai battery or ohlins suspension, But at least the names getting out there aye.....:rolleyes:

Hey, advertising is expensive... :weird:


Sorry mon I have to step up to the plate here on this one.
My credentials ON THIS SUBJECT. I am the owner of a car dealership that specialises in importing used cars. we import roughly 20-30 cars a month.
When a car arrives in the dealership before any work is done the following applies.
Zero rated -which is the freight
17.5% gst on the port charge
17.5% of the locked exchange rate on the PURCHASE PRICE including agent fees.
So for example
A car with car cost of y250000
Agents fees y85000
Total cost Y335000
Freight $1500
Port fees $95
I wont muddy the waters with the customs gst guys locking for 10 working days at an exchange rate so we will assume gst is calculated "live"
So of the cost Y335000 I pay 17.5% customs gst on the nz rate So I pay gst on $5583.34 which is $837.48 (based on exchange of 60) and about $15 for port fees.
The $837.48 and $15.00 I claim back every two months.

This is not hypothetical drawn from a website this is what I deal with on a day to day basis.

That's what I was trying to say but didn't know how it works for vehicles, thanks for that!


I have looked at the price of one shorai battery (excluding freight) from their USA website and compared the same battery from the NZ (yours i presume) website.
In round figures its US$160 excluding freight vs NZ$250.
From my experience buying other products from the US i would expect freight (for a single battery, to me) to be minimum of US$50
At the current exchange rate that works out pretty darn close to the NZ price, and if freight was say $70 I'd be better off buying it here.
Dare I say it, but I think your selling them too cheap Ed.
If I was determined to have a shorai I'd pay NZ$350 to you before I even considered importing my own.
Yeah I know you're still building a market for them and your not making much money, but it does beg the question to the other importers ....if you can do it, why can't they?

The only reason I can is because of very low overheads but yes, they are too cheap. However I don't want to upset the apple cart by imposing a price rise on my dealers just when they are starting to increase sales and profile. This is where the current exchange rate is in my favour as if the dollar were to drop by much I don't have any "fat" to absorb it.

[bogan]

Hey, advertising is expensive... :weird:


And by saving on advertising, my batteries get cheaper :niceone:

[FROSTY]

SS90 one way you may be getting confused is that NZ customs GST is not calculated "live"
Its called customs gst for that very reason.
So for example I might buy some cars at an exchange rate locked up at 67 but customs current rate at that time might be 60
I pay 15% calculated on the exchange rate THEY have locked.(60)
So you see it has to be based on whats PAID not on a simply calculated figure based on 15%. So It MUST be seperated from "normal" gst

[FastFred]

SS90 one way you may be getting confused is that NZ customs GST is not calculated "live" Its called customs gst for that very reason.

But wouldn't he know that ... As he tells us, that he has years of importing experience, even I could figure out the basics, so something about his story is not adding up :scratch:


I imported bikes into NZ for some years.

[Robert Taylor]

1) the first part of your statement has some truth in it, but the cost of doing business is not the whole reason. Not even the major part of the reason. Its the whyfores and wherefores of the way you are doing business. I guess a business like yours which relies on demand for a non essential/luxury imported item will always struggle when times are tough for your potential customers. You are in the same boat as most importers of non essential goods.

2) I guess its true in your mind, thats why you keep saying it.

3) One of the best drivers for domestic employment is a lower exchange rate.
But that would push you even closer to the wall.
But kiwi jobs would benefit.
What to do? how do I have my cake and eat it as well?
At least you would be sending less money offshore to support workers in Sweden, Japan, China, America, and instead that money would stay here and support Kiwi workers.
Which is what you want, isnt it?


fixed it for ya

1) You assume we are struggling, actually we are not. People with disposable income still have disposable income in a recession. It is those on lower incomes who struggle more, unless I am missing something?
What I will say is we are working bloody hard for the turnover we have got, good honest hard work

2) Yes and I am sticking to it, as will others who can see the big picture and all of the very real negatives that this open slather is creating for our own people

3) I am in fact in favour of a weaker Kiwi dollar and a much stronger $US. We are or damn well should be primarily an exporting nation and people have to get over self interest. BTW we are not even close to the wall, but Im concerned about everyday people having meaningful employment and prospects .

Its easy to twist arguments which you attempted to do in your last paragraph. We dont have a large scale suspension manufacturing industry and you know it. You also ( along with others ) know only too damn well where I am coming from but just choose to be argumentative.

[Robert Taylor]

Total agreement. Fiddling with GSt etc isnt going to save anyone. There has to be a fundamental change in the way people do business, taking into account modern technologies.

In NZ we already have one of the lowest business compliance cost regimes in the western world (despite RT )
GST is one of the simplest consumer taxes in the world

My way of looking at it, if your business isnt working, first place to look is in the mirror.
Ask yourself why I am doing this?
Many business's fail in NZ because a pragmatic business approach is overshadowed by the ego of the owner. They will run it till there is nothing left, blame all and sundry for their demise, except themselves of course.
On the other hand some business's flourish because of the owners ego, not too many though.

Basically if it isnt working and you cant make it work, do something else.

But if all you have left is blaming the govt, blaming people for not buying from you, blaming whoever, you are on your way to the crapper

Those of us that are in business and doing okay are mindful of very real discrepancies that exist, be it Government failure to collect gst on a greater volume of incomings, or a huge discrepancy in pricing. That one Im not even going to try and justify as its very complicated and others have explained some of the issues very well. But yes, effectively I do blame the Government for not collecting gst on imports that it could.

Yes it would be a logistical nightmare to get Customs to collect clearances and gst on EVERY import. But one proposal put forward is to get banks to act as clearance and gst collectors on every overseas money transaction. They would protest about that but an act of Parliament would enforce it. In Australia they are considering lowering the threshold to $30.
Clearly the tax take is also being very negatively impacted upon by so much offshore purchasing that in turn doesnt attract customs interest. That is an issue that Government needs to address.

[Headbanger]

You also ( along with others ) know only too damn well where I am coming from but just choose to be argumentative.

From what I gather you consider that no man should be allowed to seek value for money or make a purchase within their budget if it means you and the government miss out on your cut, and that a change of law, no matter at what cost to the man on the street is required to ensure you get yours.

Furthermore, This isn't because you are struggling as apparently your business model is recession proof, so it must just be about greed.


Well, You have convinced me.:no:

[Robert Taylor]

From what I gather you consider that no man should be allowed to seek value for money or make a purchase within their budget if it means you and the government miss out on your cut, and that a change of law, no matter at what cost to the man on the street is required to ensure you get yours.

Furthermore, This isn't because you are struggling as apparently your business model is recession proof, so it must just be about greed.


Well, You have convinced me.:no:

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? You dont get it. And I guess you want all the social services in the world when the Government is struggling for tax take?

Why do so many think that business and greed are synonomous with one another? Like many or most small businesses we make a fair and reasonable profit, nothing more, yes of course the recession hurts but we just work harder.

Im all for an even playing field when it comes to tax take on imports, any reasonable person would accept that.

[brp]

Why do so many think that business and greed are synonomous with one another? Like many or most small businesses we make a fair and reasonable profit, nothing more, yes of course the recession hurts but we just work harder.
If there was no money in it for you having your own business wouldn't you be a fool for doing so ?
I use to import products from China - one example NZ$10 each - hock them on tardme for $250 - kiwis still thought they were getting a bargin because NZ retailers had been ripping them off for more for years - the real rub these days with NZ retailers is the monopoly is over and turnover with it, with the ease of being able to buy overseas.

So called supercheap said they could get me a hiflow oil filter in for $20, went on flebay and got 3 delivered to my door from the USA for NZ$20 lollolloll

[Headbanger]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? You dont get it. And I guess you want all the social services in the world when the Government is struggling for tax take?

Why do so many think that business and greed are synonomous with one another? Like many or most small businesses we make a fair and reasonable profit, nothing more, yes of course the recession hurts but we just work harder.

Im all for an even playing field when it comes to tax take on imports, any reasonable person would accept that.

Rob, Are you on the crack pipe?

[PeeJay]

Those of us that are in business and doing okay are mindful of very real discrepancies that exist, be it Government failure to collect gst on a greater volume of incomings, or a huge discrepancy in pricing. That one Im not even going to try and justify as its very complicated and others have explained some of the issues very well. But yes, effectively I do blame the Government for not collecting gst on imports that it could.

Yes it would be a logistical nightmare to get Customs to collect clearances and gst on EVERY import. But one proposal put forward is to get banks to act as clearance and gst collectors on every overseas money transaction. They would protest about that but an act of Parliament would enforce it. In Australia they are considering lowering the threshold to $30.
Clearly the tax take is also being very negatively impacted upon by so much offshore purchasing that in turn doesnt attract customs interest. That is an issue that Government needs to address.

I am glad your business is going so well. I guess the moral hgh ground takes a back seat to $$$

You are a bit behind the timeline with your $30 in Aussie

Heres what the Aussies came up with after all the bleating and moaning from their retailers.
Cant imagine our conclusions would much different. Just substitute NZ for Aust and you will get the idea


Approximately 55 million international parcels arrive in Australia under the $1,000 threshold. The Commission estimates that with current processes, if the low value threshold was abolished, about $578 million of revenue would be collected and over $2 billion of collection costs would be borne by businesses, consumers and government. These costs are a deadweight loss on the community, the Commission said.

The Productivity Commission said that reducing the threshold to $100 would raise an additional $472 million, but, based on the current customs processing charges, this would cost consumers and businesses approximately $715 million.

Effectively, with extra costs to couriers, etc included, the Commission said it may cost the community over $1 billion to facilitate the collection of $472 million in revenue. It concluded that any reduction to the threshold could not be implemented in the short-term "without very significant cost impacts".


The Assistant Treasurer said the Draft Report identified that, if the Government was to abolish the GST exemption on goods purchased from overseas, this would cost the taxpayer $1.6 billion to collect the tax that would raise approximately $500 million. So, for every dollar of tax raised, at this stage with the current technology in place, he said it would cost the taxpayer three times as much to collect GST on items below $1,000.

Shorten said there was "no way you can sell that to the Australian people even though we do support, as a general principle, the general idea of tax neutrality, that the tax should be the same on all items". He said the idea that taxpayers would spend three times more to collect the tax was "just plain crazy".



For a number of reasons, the Commission said it was of the view that the exemption from payment of GST and customs duty on goods valued at less than $1,000 is not the main factor affecting the international competitiveness of Australian retailers. Other relevant factors included:
The current large difference between domestic and foreign retail prices for many goods purchased online.
Some consumers shop online offshore because they can't obtain the goods they require locally.
The cost of freight on individual items is comparatively high.
The willingness of Australian consumers to pay a small premium (some have suggested 20%) for the security of purchasing from an Australian supplier.


This should get you spinning


Customs Minister Maurice Williamson had asked Customs to review the $400 threshold, he said. "Although the Government recognises the concerns of retailers, it is also worth noting that there are competing interests in this area between those that want the threshold lowered and those that want it raised to align with that of Australia, which currently has a threshold of A$1000 (NZ$1270)."

So, NZ's tax free threshold may go up to $1200 to align us with Aussie. CER and all that.

Then the moaning and bleating can really start

[Bassmatt]

I am glad your business is going so well. I guess the moral hgh ground takes a back seat to $$$

Heres what the Aussies came up with after all the bleating and moaning from their retailers.
Cant imagine our conclusions would much different. Just substitute NZ for Aust and you will get the idea

This should get you spinning .....
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[PeeJay]

We dont have a large scale suspension manufacturing industry and you know it.

And why is that?
Easily fixed if the govt got off its chuff
A duty which will make it uneconomical to import suspension
You or someone else with a few mil laying around, hey the govt could do it, start a joint venture with ohlins/showa or maybe go it alone, build a manufacturing plant in NZ, employ kiwi workers, use kiwi raw materials, and supply shocks for both domestic and export.
Wouldnt that be great.
Just what you wanted, no more imports killing kiwi jobs, domestic manufacturing creating kiwi jobs,
wont be long utopia

[mikeey01]

I have and will always support local over overseas business anyday!

Some support racing, some support off road events and most, well they keep us kiwis in a job.
For the sake of a few dollars more, why would I not want to.

[Robert Taylor]

Rob, Are you on the crack pipe?

Dont get me started on illegal mind altering substances................

[Robert Taylor]

I have and will always support local over overseas business anyday!

Some support racing, some support off road events and most, well they keep us kiwis in a job.
For the sake of a few dollars more, why would I not want to.

Small NZ businesses are the major employer of people in NZ. To meet the new realities they have to trim margins to often unsustainable levels. Where do the displaced people go who lose their jobs as a result of belt tightening? Do people like ( for example ) Headbanger and Peejay even care about the social cost?

[SS90]

Do people like ( for example ) Headbanger and Peejay even care about the social cost?

To their credit, it's not their fault, it's the society of knockers that most countries have.

The simple answer is always the same, NZ has 4.5 million people, Australia has more than that riding bikes.

Does that put it into perspective.?

[bogan]

Small NZ businesses are the major employer of people in NZ. To meet the new realities they have to trim margins to often unsustainable levels. Where do the displaced people go who lose their jobs as a result of belt tightening? Do people like ( for example ) Headbanger and Peejay even care about the social cost?

Lets go back 10-15 years to the time before internet shopping then?

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/keygraphs/Fig9_large.jpg

Oh wait, thats no better.

Most people are capable of upskilling, and a skilled workforce is going to bring in more money than an unskilled one.

Your doom and gloom prophecies about internet buying ruining NZ business and tax take just don't stack up with the figures.

[Robert Taylor]

Lets go back 10-15 years to the time before internet shopping then?

Oh wait, thats no better.

Most people are capable of upskilling, and a skilled workforce is going to bring in more money than an unskilled one.

Your doom and gloom prophecies about internet buying ruining NZ business and tax take just don't stack up with the figures.

Its all about the ability to see all sides of the story, something that a number of people on here are incapable of

[bogan]

Its all about the ability to see all sides of the story, something that a number of people on here are incapable of

Well heres another side. A lot of us buy product in NZ, and use it to make things to sell internationally. But paying massively inflated prices locally makes it difficult to stay competitive on an international market.

These are the people who are bringing money into NZ and creating jobs here. They should not also be expected to provide charity for those businesses who refuse to get with the times and still expect to operate within a national monopoly.

It is worth noting I have managed to find some very good suppliers who are competitive on price, and offer excellent service as well. But it took some doing to find them.

[FROSTY]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? You dont get it. And I guess you want all the social services in the world when the Government is struggling for tax take?
Hey guys without going into a political debate I think you lot have missed this part.
People expect police to be on the beat,firemen to turn up when their house burns down,a "safety net" if they are made redundant.
This money has to come from somewhere.
One place that makes a big contribution is gst (go figure)

[PeeJay]

Its all about the ability to see all sides of the story, something that a number of people on here are incapable of

You're not wrong there. Obviously include yourself in that group.

Care to comment on what the Australian Productivity Commission concluded re lowering the GST free threshold?

Why would it be any different here?

When Customs came back to Maurice Williamson regarding NZ gst threshold they included an estimation of how much money the country would SAVE if the gst free threshold was raised to the same level as Aust.
Hence not only is the govt not lowering it, they are not ruling out lifting it.

Just to get a few more sales you would want to lumber the country with more expenses and costs
As for your suggestion that the govt could force banks to collect gst.
Have you actually thought it through?
To make it work would cost a fortune.
And of course the extra compliance costs for a system that doesn't work will be passed on to who ? me and you and every other person in the country.
All because you think people shouldn't have a choice as to where they buy there stuff.

Not to put too fine a point on it, its business's like yours which contribute to our woeful balance of payments situation.
Rather than export goods and services and import money, you export money and import goods.
So instead of whinging about private importers causing the downfall of kiwi society, how about looking in the mirror ?
And if you wish to drag someones social conscience into the discussion, check your own out first

[PeeJay]

Hey guys without going into a political debate I think you lot have missed this part.
People expect police to be on the beat,firemen to turn up when their house burns down,a "safety net" if they are made redundant.
This money has to come from somewhere.
One place that makes a big contribution is gst (go figure)
True, but obviously there is a breakeven point where the gst collected exceeds the costs to collect it.
As the Aussies and our own govt has figured out it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to spend $50 to collect $5 hence the gst free threshold.

[FROSTY]

True, but obviously there is a breakeven point where the gst collected exceeds the costs to collect it.
As the Aussies and our own govt has figured out it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to spend $50 to collect $5 hence the gst free threshold.
Mon this has been a bugbear of mine for a VERY long time.The customs gst system doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Paying the gst on goods you import should be simlicity itself.

[Headbanger]

Do people like ( for example ) Headbanger and Peejay even care about the social cost?

Amazing how your bubble is burst over and over and over and yet you never notice it as it just doesn't fit what suits you.

As has been pointed out, the effect of crippling the man on the street in order to funnel their money to you is the greater cost, But hey, don't let the numbers get in the way of your delusion.

The world wasn't put here to suit you, and you alone.

[Headbanger]

Its all about the ability to see all sides of the story, something that a number of people on here are incapable of

LMFAO.

Thats you all over.


Have a tissue.

[FROSTY]

Hey guys something to think about.
Yep we live in a global economy.Yep you can save money by going on e bay etc and buying stuff from wholesalers in the states etc.
I see your logic.
But what happens when the last accessory shop has closed. The last bike shop has gone under?
Ohh they won't I hear you say. Hmmm ok take a look around -how many west auckland bike shops,south auckland?
How many places have closed their doors in the last few years?
Im not Naive enough to say the only reason the companies folded is people buying offshore.But it hasn't helped.

[Headbanger]

Simple fact of life is that needs and wants of the customers change and never stop changing, the industries affected by this need to adapt or disappear.

The retailer doesn't get to tell the customer what they have to do to be satisfied, that is arse about face.

If the last bike shops close, then they didn't suit the market. If a number of shops closed their doors in the last few years then its because there were too many at that time.

Suggest you retailers look at the bigger picture here, Many businesses (as in not retail) have closed their doors or downsized due to changes in the economy. Do they get to blame their customers?