ABS the question

[GTRMAN]

Taken from the spring time time to die thread so not to get lost in the crossfire

Keen to understand peoples attitude to ABS brakes or traction aids in general.

[Edbear]

I'm all for it, but as with anything else, it is an aid, not a cure. You will still crash and die if you don't ride to the conditions and your skill level.

[cheshirecat]

if i have to brake hard on a wet busy motorway and I can do it concentrating on the escape path and not tyre traction the its a good thing

[Devil]

Have it, and it will be a factor in my next bike purchase too. Definitely will pick the ABS bike over the non-ABS if it comes down to that.

[Maha]

Never been on a bike with it ...why is this even an option on this poll?
It has no relevance.

[Katman]

I want to know where the 'Meh' option is.

[FJRider]

Never been on a bike with it ...why is this even an option on this poll?
It has no relevance.

That would suggest that you believe ...

NO experience on the subject ... means you have no opinion on the subject ... :eek:



This is KB ... when has lack of knowledge stopped us giving an opinion ... ???

[Flip]

My 05 road king did not have it as a option. The next bike will.

[Road kill]

I'd buy a bike with it if I was buying new and there was an option.

Thing is "it's not going to be an option before much longer because "it will" become the standard.

[Mr. Peanut]

I've always had ABS, it's called a functioning cerebellum.

[Mr. Peanut]

If I'm in a panic braking situation, and this might sound odd, but I don't want ABS to interfere with my tried and true mental exit strategy. I'm used to not having ABS.

The usual thinking pathway is something like this...

*truck pulls out*

10 Brake HARD
20 Wait till evasive manouver point of no return
30 Flick bike over hard and dodge around truck
40 Check road ahead is now clear
50 Turn around and flip bird

With ABS it might well turn out like this

*truck pulls out*

10 Brake HARD
20 Notice ABS
30 Think "hey that's cool"
40 Hit truck
50 Die

[davereid]

Have it, and it will be a factor in my next bike purchase too. Definitely will pick the ABS bike over the non-ABS if it comes down to that.

Yes, I went out of my way to buy a bike with ABS. I intend to outlive my grand kids, and technology will help !

[SMOKEU]

10 Brake HARD
20 Notice ABS
30 Think "hey that's cool"
40 Hit truck
50 Die

You'd have to be a bit of a dumbass to end up crashing due to the ABS working properly.

I really want ABS on my next bike. It's a shame that ABS equipped sports bikes are still so expensive, but of course prices will drop once the technology becomes a bit more mainstream.

[Edbear]

If I'm in a panic braking situation, and this might sound odd, but I don't want ABS to interfere with my tried and true mental exit strategy. I'm used to not having ABS.

The usual thinking pathway is something like this...

*truck pulls out*

10 Brake HARD
20 Wait till evasive manouver point of no return
30 Flick bike over hard and dodge around truck
40 Check road ahead is now clear
50 Turn around and flip bird

With ABS it might well turn out like this

*truck pulls out*

10 Brake HARD
20 Notice ABS
30 Think "hey that's cool"
40 Hit truck
50 Die

Do you think before you post? :mellow:

[Katman]

Do you think before you post? :mellow:

Says the queer fuck who's too scared to ride a motorcycle.

[Big Dave]

Like most things it depends on the vehicle.
My Chook chaser - not really, the Street Glide? Yes please.

I've had ABS save my test-bike bacon.
I've crashed on bikes without it - that wouldn't have crashed if it had it.

A Good thing.

[Mr. Peanut]

I forgot how upset people get on here, when you express an opinion on a topic... :mellow:

[pzkpfw]

Current Bandit is same price with and without. I'd buy the one with.

(In the current SuzukiSummerFestWhateverItsCalled the non-ABS one gets a Yoshimura that the ABS one doesn't.)

[Edbear]

Says the queer fuck who's too scared to ride a motorcycle.


I forgot how upset people get on here, when you express an opinion on a topic... :mellow:

Don't worry about Katman, he's just a silly little sad sack and wrong again on all counts as usual. He's just got his panties in a twist over me and tries to sound off. Unfortunately for him he can only fool himself.

[Mr. Peanut]

Don't worry about Katman, he's just a silly little sad sack and wrong again on all counts as usual. He's just got his panties in a twist over me and tries to sound off. Unfortunately for him he can only fool himself.

I meant you homo... :eek:

[Edbear]

I meant you homo... :eek:

Whatever made you think I was upset about anything? :confused:

[Edbear]

I meant you homo... :eek:

Oh, by the way, don't you know it's not PC to call someone a homo these days, you will upset the fragile egos on here. Naturally you're wrong anyway, but maybe being wrong doesn't faze you either?

[Big Dave]

I meant you homo... :eek:


Says the guy who used to carry a cane.

[Usarka]

Says the guy who used to carry a cane.

http://youtu.be/rX0F3kY3uxU

[Mr. Peanut]

Sorry girlfriend, I don't do catfights.

My opinion is still that ABS would just be a disruption to my 'Oh shit' reflexes. I have all the ABS I need in my cerebellum and right hand.

[caspernz]

ABS wasn't an option when I bought my current bike, but the next one will have ABS, no doubt about that.

Have had cars and trucks with ABS for years, and yep it pays for itself.

In all fairness there are situations, such as an unloaded truck on a wet road, where incorrect use of the brakes will cause the ABS to lengthen the stopping distance. As with anything, a bit of training is the key.

Anyone who reckons they can do better than an ABS equipped vehicle, all the time...are just kidding themselves :laugh:

[paturoa]

I've got ABS and it is one of the main reasons I chose this bike.

I consider myself to have average skills, though I do over 20ks each year on the 'cycle. So the reason I went for ABS is that when shit happens (when, rather than if) and I reaction brake, then I'm hoping that ABS will prevent front wheel lock up and the resulting bin.

[Edbear]

Sorry girlfriend, I don't do catfights.

My opinion is still that ABS would just be a disruption to my 'Oh shit' reflexes. I have all the ABS I need in my cerebellum and right hand.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I sincerely hope you never have to test your opinion in a real situation.

Did you read the links I posted? They were from very experienced and respected riders/racers doing real-world testing. One also has to ask why the manufacturers are endeavouring to make ABS standard fitment on all motorcycles and spending squillions on making it work well.

If it wasn't a real safety advantage they would refer to spend the dosh on other things.

I grew up with cable brakes, (yes in cars as well), no seatbelts, wayward steering and an acute lack of handling and power on narrow gravel roads. Bikes using spaghetti for their frames and drum brakes that wouldn't survive one panic stop. Pogo springs for suspension and too much power for their own good. Okay some had very little power, like the B31 BSA and the Bantam, but all that meant was you fell off/crashed at a lower speed.

Now my new car has every aid available to avoid crashing, ABS, EBD, EBA, ESC, Traction control, 7 airbags, pretensioner seatbelts, and the list goes on, but it is almost as much fun to drive as our '94 MX5 with only power-steering and power disc brakes. It handles like a sports car, is very fast on the road and does it all with astounding economy and comfort.

My C50T was streets ahead of any bike I've ever owned and was a great all-round ride. I'd have all the active and safety features available as they don't take away the fun factor or negate the skills required to drive/ride well. They are a good back up for those "Oops!" moments you don't expect and if you work with them increase your fun factor rather than decrease it.

[Katman]

Bikes using spaghetti for their frames and drum brakes that wouldn't survive one panic stop. Pogo springs for suspension and too much power for their own good.

I'm still riding those same bikes.

I don't feel the slightest need for ABS.

[Mr. Peanut]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I sincerely hope you never have to test your opinion in a real situation.

FWIW If I was riding anything over 200kg dry, I would prefer ABS, but good luck catching me doing that.

[Edbear]

I'm still riding those same bikes.

I don't feel the slightest need for ABS.

Somehow I'm fine with that... :niceone:

[caspernz]

I'm still riding those same bikes.

I don't feel the slightest need for ABS.

Speaking for myself here, but I prefer to combine my average riding skills with above average equipment...so in your case it's awesome skills compensating for ancient equipment then?:eek:

[Katman]

Speaking for myself here, but I prefer to combine my average riding skills with above average equipment...so in your case it's awesome skills compensating for ancient equipment then?:eek:

If you say so.

[banditrider]

Does ABS gurantee to keep you upright on a wet slippery rd when breaking hard? If not I would not bother as bike ABS can be expensive to service. It would possibly
be more of benefit to learner riders though who have not got the braking distribution between front and rear brakes right.

No guarantees as there is more to than just wet road but certainly better than grabbing a handful with no ABS. Pretty sure the ABS came to the rescue one wet night just North of Dargaville. Not sure why you think it's more expensive to service...

There are a lot of bikes out there now with pretty serious brakes, just blindly grabbing a handful could get ya into trouble (everyone seen videos of idiots going over the handle bars) - ABS takes away that issue. It wasn't an option on the Connie when I got it but I would have paid more to get it and will if necessarily in the future.

There are times when I don't like it - it very occasionally activates when braking hardish on bumpy roads when you are not actually locking up but the computer get's confused as the wheels could be doing different speeds momentarily.

[Katman]

just blindly grabbing a handful could get ya into trouble (everyone seen videos of idiots going over the handle bars) - ABS takes away that issue.

Yay, so idiots can now just grab a handful of brakes and not know whether they're doing it right or not.

What a win.

[FJRider]

Yay, so idiots can now just grab a handful of brakes and not know whether they're doing it right or not.

What a win.

Plenty of idiots do it NOW ... if fewer bin (as is most likely) with ABS doing the SAME thing ... Whats the downside .. ??? :confused: :scratch:

[Mr. Peanut]

Yay, so idiots can now just grab a handful of brakes and not know whether they're doing it right or not.

What a win.

I would rather that idiot survived until someone teaches him better.

I think, on a population wide basis, it will save lives. I'm all for it.

I just don't want or need it on my motorcycle.

[Katman]

Whats the downside .. ??? :confused: :scratch:

That motorcyclists lose the ability to know how to most effectively operate their brakes.

[Katman]

Any monkey can be taught "See that lever? Squeeze it hard".

[FJRider]

That motorcyclists lose the ability to know how to most effectively operate their brakes.

The ones I referred to in my post never had that ability. They can't lose what they never had ...

ABS just disrupts Darwins theory ...

[Katman]

ABS just disrupts Darwins theory ...

I'm starting to like Darwin more and more.

[onearmedbandit]

There are a lot of bikes out there now with pretty serious brakes, just blindly grabbing a handful could get ya into trouble (everyone seen videos of idiots going over the handle bars) - ABS takes away that issue. It wasn't an option on the Connie when I got it but I would have paid more to get it and will if necessarily in the future.



Pretty sure this model comes with ABS. It won't stop a bike from flipping over. I could do that on my bike without locking the front tyre, so ABS wouldn't even know about it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0t5ab4kTORI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Gremlin]

My BMW has ABS (along with probably every trick motorcycles can have). The point of ABS is to stop wheels locking due to a surface with low friction, allowing you to maintain better control of the motorbike. I've had both front and rear ABS activated, the front almost exclusively on gravel surfaces, the rear activates under hard braking when the bike is pitching about a bit.

By default ABS is on, on every startup, but it's switchable and I have turned it off for rougher adventure riding...

I would certainly wish for a future bike to have ABS, considering it above those without, just the same way as wanting stronger brakes, than those with weaker ones.

[Rhys]

I think the question should be if you have abs would buy another bike without it

[pzkpfw]

... Anyone who reckons they can do better than an ABS equipped vehicle, all the time...are just kidding themselves :laugh:

Landing the Space Shuttle amounted to pushing a button that told the computer to start the process.

About the only thing the "pilot" did was push the brakes after landing.

Then they got the computer to do that too, as it wore out the brakes slower.

[Road kill]

I'm starting to like Darwin more and more.

Until somebody fucks up an then your all over them like a safety nazi right.

I often wonder of you have any real opinion outside of just disagreeing with everything Ed say's.

Guess we will never know,,,or care:rolleyes:

[madandy]

I have raced cars with ABS, on track and always dectivate it for best braking performance.
On a road vehicle I beleive its advantageous in a panic scenario. Most times, being alert enough to avoid a close call, let alone need to use emergency techniques the ABS isn't necessary but that one time you just might be happy the computer stopped you locking the front tyre is enough for me to say I'd choose it on a new bike over a bike not so equipped.

[Tryhard]

Dont have abs on my bike. I understand how it worx sort of. Can someone please explain in dumbass language so I understand. How does it work when your front wheel is turning around a corner. Does it stand the bike up?:stupid:

[Hitcher]

There's a question missing from the poll:

ABS, it's OK but I wouldn't solely base a bike purchase on whether or not the bike had it fitted.

[Dave-]

I've heard it varies in it's ability quite widely, as does the traction control.

[Big Dave]

I have all the ABS I need in my cerebellum and right hand.

Yep. That was my initial reaction when the concept first appeared on bikes. Doan need no steenkin' etc etc.

Remember that scene where Fonzie has to admit he was wrrrr.....wro.......wrrrrrr.....may not have been right.

Experience with a number of test bikes since has convinced me to go with the backup. 's all it is - backup.

Like I said earlier - depending on vehicle too.

[Devil]

If I didn't commute daily in heavy traffic, in any weather I would most likely be a little more ambivalent about the topic.

I have to say though, having that backup available for panic situations is good. Particularly when you're riding down a sopping wet bus lane and some fucking numpty pedestrian appears jogging through from the stopped traffic on your right and right into the buslane in front of you. Boy did he shit his pants when he noticed that the lane wasn't actually empty.

[Katman]

I often wonder of you have any real opinion outside of just disagreeing with everything Ed say's.



Who are you? Ed's boyfriend?

[Maha]

78% of the votes so far are from people who have absolutely no knowledge of ABS, I still dont get why that question is even there?
All KB polls have a flaw, this one is no exception.

[Edbear]

Funny to note that all the naysayers are those who have never had it or used it, whereas all those who have used it or tested it are all for it. But that's the KB way I guess.

Those who poo-poo the idea all reckon they have the necessary skills, but don't seem to appreciate that those who are for it are maybe far more experienced and qualified to make a decision on it than they are, especially in the light of their personal experience with it.

Again, that's the KB way. :weird:

[Katman]

Funny to note that all the naysayers are those who have never had it or used it

Really Ed? As I've already said, I've ridden many bikes with ABS.

[Edbear]

Really Ed? As I've already said, I've ridden many bikes with ABS.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, just seems most everyone else who have used it are for it, including racers, testers and instructors and those who do many thousands of miles a year on all manner of bikes and terrain. Note the comments from respected members on here, and in the links I posted.

As I said earlier I have no problem with you doing as you are. I just don't tend to view your opinions as having any worth, that's all...

[sootie]

I have ABS braking in the car & have never ridden a bike with ABS. I have tried it & like it in the car.

I think the idea of having it on a bike is very good BUT:

as with any piece of new technology you do need to become familiar with it.

ADVICE: When new to it, take the vehicle somewhere quiet & use it. Get to know the feel of exactly what it is likely to do.

Otherwise you will be like a person from the first world when faced with using a cell phone to avert a disaster.

[Katman]

People seem to think that ABS gives them special powers.

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

It's just that one of them could be stopped by a monkey in that distance.

[pzkpfw]

People seem to think that ABS gives them special powers.

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

It's just that one of them could be stopped by a monkey in that distance.

Are you not the person who thinks that most of us are monkeys?

[Gremlin]

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.
Don't think you've actually read enough then, or you've missed out the part where it requires a very specific set of parameters to achieve that.

In testing, in ideal conditions (road surface, tyres, rider, bike etc) with a skilled rider on board (read good racer) yes, a bike without ABS can stop faster than an ABS bike of the same model. It's not completely consistent however, sometimes the ABS winning. Once your conditions change, road surface gets worse for example, then the ABS equipped bike starts consistently beating the non ABS bike. In short, taking into account all conditions and variables, an ABS bike has better odds of stopping quicker. The caveat with this, is that we're talking road riding, and not adventure/off road riding.

I see your argument about having monkeys for drivers relying on all the aids, and the point has been proven before, but where do you draw the line? No traction control, air conditioning, power steering, ABS etc? Air bags? Make seats worse? It's a bit ridiculous...

The poll could only be used for opinion, as the facts are clear that ABS does help. So... when do we have a thread about traction control? It's probably saved my bacon a couple of times...

[veldthui]

It is a very good way to reduce insurance costs. I have used ABS in my car numerous times and it works well. Never yet had it activate on my bike. Certainly means that although my current bike is 400cc more than my 800 the insurance cost remained the same even though the insured ammount went way up.

[Katman]

Once your conditions change, road surface gets worse for example, then the ABS equipped bike starts consistently beating the non ABS bike. In short, taking into account all conditions and variables, an ABS bike has better odds of stopping quicker.

All it's doing is removing the rider's need to be able to sense when their wheel is about to lock up.

[willytheekid]

To ABS....or not to ABS...that is the question!...I think? :confused:

Soooo, After some in-depth study and lots! of research....my findings are thus:
http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/abs-braking-explained.png
...standard brakes seem to work best on corgies! :niceone:....:mellow:


As for bikes??-(sorry I got side tracked during research)
...fuck knows! (down to personal choice & skill set I spose)

But Ive tried ABS bikes:yes:...meh!...is ok...but I find it takes the "fun" out of the arse clinching moments :laugh:...prefer to rely on myself instead of a computer.
Besides...I always seem to stop in time during an emergency with standard brakes...but it "may" have something to do with "how" I clentch my arse??:confused:

...i will do some more "research" and get back to ya :eek: (must borrow Nodrogs arse clinch meter..."hay Nodrog!!!...:shifty:")



ABS or not...Ride safe over the holiday period KBers :love:

[tbs]

Really Ed? As I've already said, I've ridden many bikes with ABS.

I'm curious about motorcycle ABS and I have a couple of questions based on my experience with cars.

Several years ago I did a BMW driver training day at Puke. Obviously there was plenty of time spent fanging it around the track, but we also did a bunch of braking drills, including braking and turning at the same time. The point being that we actually had to learn to trust the ABS. In a Beemer, when the ABS activates the brake pedal kicks back against your foot quite forcefully, with a surprisingly slow pulsation rate. The instructors told us that everyone instinctively lifts off when this happens, so the first drill was to keep our foot buried when the pedal started to kick. He confidently told us that no-one ever stopped inside the cones on their first attempt, so I made damn sure I did. Then we did evasive maneuver drills braking while turning around obstacles. Interestingly, most of my concentration was still on fighting the instinct to lift off the brake, but it worked. The car could still turn no matter how hard I was braking.
Later in the day we did a timed slalom. Through some cones, do a U-turn and back through the cones to a full stop. On my final run I decided to use my newly found skills to haul the car up and make the u-turn, but actually it didn't work, and I lost considerable time with the car just skidding forwards. I guess full lock ABS has it's limitations.

That night I experimented with the ABS in my Toyota, and while the pedal pulsated, it did so at high frequency and didn't make me want to lift off. Since then I have felt it come on a few times in the wet, often when one wheel crosses a drain cover.

Questions:

Do motorbike brake levers pulsate when the ABS comes on? Could this actually increase you stopping distance if the rider has to fight the instinct to lift off?

Can motorbike ABS work effectively at lean? I recall reading the the Aprilia RSV4 Factory came without it as they hadn't developed it sufficiently for track use.

Could relying on it while at lean cause the front wheel to lock just long enough to initiate a sideways slide that puts you down?

[Gremlin]

All it's doing is removing the rider's need to be able to sense when their wheel is about to lock up.
Ok, lets play Devil's Advocate a bit. A human brain can concentrate on a finite number of things at once. In an emergency situation, arguably, the less the brain has to concentrate on, the better it will perform. It could therefore be argued that not worrying about wheel traction leaves you more time to assess the situation, find an out, concentrate on keeping the bike upright etc.

How many riders are sensing when their motorcycle is about to sieze and cover the clutch? While an issue on 2 strokes, it's so rare in modern bikes, most wouldn't have a clue. I certainly don't think about the engine siezing...


Questions:

Do motorbike brake levers pulsate when the ABS comes on? Could this actually increase you stopping distance if the rider has to fight the instinct to lift off?

Can motorbike ABS work effectively at lean? I recall reading the the Aprilia RSV4 Factory came without it as they hadn't developed it sufficiently for track use.

Could relying on it while at lean cause the front wheel to lock just long enough to initiate a sideways slide that puts you down?
On my BMW R1200 GS Adventure the levers certainly do pulsate under your fingers and foot. Can't comment about others. I guess it depends on the rider. I would hazzard a guess that riders are hopefully a little more clued up about bike operation than your average driver (coz there's simply heaps of them that are clueless). I have certainly seen the question asked though, why does my brake lever pulse, what's wrong...

Can't answer on lean questions, 1, I'm not keen to scrape up my bike any more than it is already, and 2, it's also probably a variable question, depending on the amount of lean. Due to contact patch, if there is a loss of traction (especially leant over) it's hard to re-gain that traction as the tyre is already in a sliding motion. Any recovery of grip also raises the additional risk of the bike falling over it's axis due to the tyres gripping (ie, high sides). With small amounts of lean I would say it's very beneficial, but higher amounts, no idea...

[Katman]

Ok, lets play Devil's Advocate a bit. A human brain can concentrate on a finite number of things at once. In an emergency situation, arguably, the less the brain has to concentrate on, the better it will perform. It could therefore be argued that not worrying about wheel traction leaves you more time to assess the situation, find an out, concentrate on keeping the bike upright etc.


In the past I've had instances of using a locked rear wheel, sliding out to the side, to enable me to steer around an obstacle in an emergency situation.

Good luck trying that one with ABS.

[Big Dave]

I also think it's a good idea if you are riding with it for the first time to go and find a suitable empty carpark and sensibly work up to engaging the system - mainly so if it does kick in in an emergency your first thought isn't WTF!

Because the systems and the type of feedback they give vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Better to be concentrating on what's going on than the weird feeling brake lever.

[Mr. Peanut]

Yep. That was my initial reaction when the concept first appeared on bikes. Doan need no steenkin' etc etc.

Remember that scene where Fonzie has to admit he was wrrrr.....wro.......wrrrrrr.....may not have been right.

Experience with a number of test bikes since has convinced me to go with the backup. 's all it is - backup.

Like I said earlier - depending on vehicle too.

I have to admit, my cerebellar ABS (tm) is somewhat slower in operation due to the intrinsic lag in action potentials running through the nerve axons of my right hand, and having the wheel tuck for 300ms rather than 20ms is probably less than optimal.

If I was carrying a pillion regularly on a heavy sports tourer, I would use it without question.

[onearmedbandit]

People seem to think that ABS gives them special powers.

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

It's just that one of them could be stopped by a monkey in that distance.

That's the truth. Although I'm keen to see someone argue it.

[Maha]

In the past I've had instances of using a locked rear wheel, sliding out to the side, to enable me to steer around an obstacle in an emergency situation.

Good luck trying that one with ABS.
Luxury... I had a locked rear wheel, sliding front end, a seagull attacking me from above, sunstrike, a Kenworth jumping out from now where, two horses without riders, a hang glider swooping in from my right and a young girl delivering pamphlets...all this just getting out of the driveway...ABS eat shit!....it was all skill level.

[Usarka]

Do a skid bro!

[Ocean1]

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

So you're one of the elite pro racers that could stop in less distance with ABS turned off eh?

Tests reports I've seen suggested it took you several attempts, though, eh?

And your average was still longer than a mere amateure with ABS on, innit?

[jim.cox]

I do not want ABS

I want the brakes to work when I tell them to

Having some machine decide that I dont really mean it is about as good as having Micro$oft guess my words as I type

I also happend to like spinning and sliding my wheels, and since all my vehicles are old klunkers I worry about the long term maintenance of such systems

I will concede that ABS probably does do a better job of braking than I can - but I still dont want it

[Katman]

So you're one of the elite pro racers that could stop in less distance with ABS turned off eh?


If you say so.

[Mr. Peanut]

Luxury... I had a locked rear wheel, sliding front end, a seagull attacking me from above, sunstrike, a Kenworth jumping out from now where, two horses without riders, a hang glider swooping in from my right and a young girl delivering pamphlets...all this just getting out of the driveway...ABS eat shit!....it was all skill level.

I used to dream of having a locked rear wheel! I had no front wheel, no back wheel, and no road. My motorcycle was on fire at 200mph with nothing but my feet for wheels and brakes, while I was being attacked by ninjas with poison darts, a squadron of machine gunners using me for target practice, there was monstertrucks pullin out of side streets, and I had 3 pillions. Stopped just in time, and I hadn't even put my key in the ignition.

But you try telling the youth of today that, and they won't believe you.

[Maha]

I used to dream of having a locked rear wheel! I had no front wheel, no back wheel, and no road. My motorcycle was on fire at 200mph with nothing but my feet for wheels and brakes, while I was being attacked by ninjas with poison darts, a squadron of machine gunners using me for target practice, there was monstertrucks pullin out of side streets, and I had 3 pillions. Stopped just in time, and I hadn't even put my key in the ignition.

But you try telling the youth of today that, and they won't believe you.

Damn! all my rep giving has gone to Akzel and others...but, I hear ya :niceone:

[SPman]

I think the question should be if you have abs would buy another bike without it

And I think the answer is, if you're buying new, you soon won't have the option!

[jim.cox]

And I think the answer is, if you're buying new, you soon won't have the option!

Unfortuantely true

While I am unlikely to buy a new bike any time soon. I am actively looking for both a new(er) bike and 4WD. And in both cases I'm avoiding ones with ABS

[Big Dave]

>>Brakes that dont work some of the time? Bad idea if you ask me...<<


Probably would be. But that's your Luddite response.

The difference is an ABS is designed to provide optimum efficiency ALL the time.

The trade off of course is you can't do a skid for the kid.

[jim.cox]

The difference is an ABS is designed to provide optimum efficiency ALL the time.


Designed: Yes - with a 10 year 100 000 km (which ever comes first) lifespan

Great until it stops working - and it will - entropy wins in the end

[Rhys]

Designed: Yes - with a 10 year 100 000 km (which ever comes first) lifespan



Yes and your tyres are designed to last for 5-15,000 kms and cost more than a repair to your 10yr old bike with ABS

[Edbear]

Yes and your tyres are designed to last for 5-15,000 kms and cost more than a repair to your 10yr old bike with ABS

Cost is all relative, or is that, relatives cost, or something... :confused:

[Big Dave]

Dave's rule of ABS.

Stubborn old coots can pick up their own bike when the front washes out in the gravel dusted on the car park apron.

Edit - That also reminds - I saw a very good homage to 'Captain America' - A dyna that had been mildly raked, but was still a viable day-rider - adorned with appropriate paint and generous bling.

We'd pulled up to take photos. I'd parked on the gravel off a sweeping left-hander, stepped off the Road Glide, and the other photog on a Dyna swung around to park behind me. He hit a patch of marbles, the wheel locked - and it tucked. Came to rest about three feet from me, headlight throwing up stones. I felt miserable for him - pride and joy.

I reckon ABS would have saved it. At 10kph.

[baffa]

Interested to try it.

People seem to think ABS also means anti tip and traction control.

I like it in the car on the road, but hate it on the track. Pulled the fuse for ABS for my car at a track day, and ended up going a lot faster.
On a bike I would need to experience it leant over, to know if it would be benificial or not.

Also agree with everything Katman said, especially the bit where he said you dont need it in Auckland, as we live in New Zealand's best city.

[Gremlin]

Yes and your tyres are designed to last for 5-15,000 kms and cost more than a repair to your 10yr old bike with ABS
Depends if you're adding up the life cost of the tyres over the equivalent distance.

I know of a BMW where the ABS module has failed (reasonably late model, but well outside warranty). $4k and change I think, for a new one, NZ price (likely to be brought in cheaper from overseas).

[Katman]

I reckon ABS would have saved it. At 10kph.

Who knows what a couple more IQ points might have achieved.

[240]

My bike manual warns that in the DRY stopping distance may be longer than non abs so as most of my riding is in the dry I decided to not go the abs way

[Big Dave]

Every practical demo of ABS I've seen first hand has shown the ABS equipped bike stopping in a shorter distance.
They do usually wet the road for the demos though. Not always.

It's not only about stopping distance.
The ABS adds to the 'steerability' of the bike in extreme conditions.
Swerving out of the way like.

[Mr. Peanut]

...the other photog on a Dyna swung around to park behind me. He hit a patch of marbles, the wheel locked - and it tucked. Came to rest about three feet from me, headlight throwing up stones. I felt miserable for him...

On the other hand, the thought of an over-chromed hog kissing tarmac at an embarrassingly low speed brings a warm glow to my heart.

I have no empathy for someone that doesn't pay attention to the road surface.

[Big Dave]

I have no empathy.

Experience is a good school - but the fees are high.

[Katman]

Experience is a good school - but the fees are high.

What a shame that Stupidity is such a cheaper school.

[jonbuoy]

99.9% of the time you won't even know its there for normal road riding, you can still practice heavy braking. Unless you live on a gravel road I don't see any disadvantage for a normal rider. What's not to like?

[Ocean1]

What's not to like?

The experts figure they can do it better the old way.

When they're not busy adjusting the timing and pumping up the oil pressure.

[Edbear]

What a shame that Stupidity is such a cheaper school.

Must... Resist... :rolleyes:

[Edbear]

The experts figure they can do it better the old way.

When they're not busy adjusting the timing and pumping up the oil pressure.

You mean the KB "experts" of course... :confused: the real experts are in favour of it.

[pzkpfw]

Geez.

Bikes used to have little levers to manually adjust the timing advance. I bet when mechanical advance was put in, there were blokes claiming they could make their engine run better by manual adjustment.

[Mr. Peanut]

I believe Ixion would still claim that.

[gunnyrob]

It's saved my arse more than once. Will never go without it again

[Ender EnZed]

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

It's just that one of them could be stopped by a monkey in that distance.

That's not a bad thing.


All it's doing is removing the rider's need to be able to sense when their wheel is about to lock up.

Which is a good thing, because the vast majority of riders aren't able to do that even occasionally. None of them are able to do that 100% of the time.


motorcyclists lose the ability to know how to most effectively operate their brakes.

The most effective way to operate the brakes on a motorcycle with ABS is to pull the lever as hard as possible.

There's only going to be a problem here if they treat a bike without ABS as if it did have ABS. That seems like a very worthwhile trade off for dramatically reduced panic stopping distances for >90% of riders >90% of the time. (These numbers are invented but I doubt they're in dispute.)



Also, this poll is fucking terrible. GTRMAN, you should be ashamed.

[Katman]

The most effective way to operate the brakes on a motorcycle with ABS is to pull the lever as hard as possible.


Sorry, can't agree with that statement.

If stopping in the shortest possible distance is the only requirement then maybe you'd be right.

But in the circumstance of scrubbing off as much speed as possible and then swerving to avoid a hazard, a death grip on the brake lever ain't going to do you any good.

And that, in a nutshell, is my greatest concern about ABS.

I can see it producing a breed of motorcyclist whose only reaction in an emergency becomes squeezing the lever as hard as they can.

[FJRider]

I can see it producing a breed of motorcyclist whose only reaction in an emergency becomes squeezing the lever as hard as they can.

And not in just emergency situations .. EVERY situation ... <_<

The driver behind them wont be always prepared for that ... :laugh:

[MrKiwi]

Taken from the spring time time to die thread so not to get lost in the crossfire

Keen to understand peoples attitude to ABS brakes or traction aids in general.

I would have voted for the option that said, 'don't currently have ABS but wish I did!

[FJRider]

On the other hand, the thought of an over-chromed hog kissing tarmac at an embarrassingly low speed brings a warm glow to my heart.

I have no empathy for someone that doesn't pay attention to the road surface.

Low speed off's are not always the domain of heavy bikes ... they just seem more prone to the effects of gravity at low speed though.

But a lot of riders fall victim to gravity at low speed ... because at low speed they relax a bit (too much).

[george formby]

But in the circumstance of scrubbing off as much speed as possible and then swerving to avoid a hazard, a death grip on the brake lever ain't going to do you any good.
.

I always wondered how well ABS would perform in that scenario. In this vid I was very impressed with the rider keeping the front brake on right through the turn. Then I translated the page to see the magic words. "making maximum use of ABS".. Just glad I read it before I tried it that aggressively on my non ABS bike.

Linky Dink (http://youtu.be/_zvazUqEX5c)

The first 15 or so seconds is an intro so wait for the slow mo bit.

[GrayWolf]

I want to know where the 'Meh' option is.

it's the one we'll use when the great K'man one day does sit in the middle of the road on his arse, when ABS 'might' have prevented it.... :msn-wink:

[GrayWolf]

Does ABS gurantee to keep you upright on a wet slippery rd when breaking hard? If not I would not bother as bike ABS can be expensive to service. It would possibly
be more of benefit to learner riders though who have not got the braking distribution between front and rear brakes right.

I did 70k+ on an FJ1200abs, this was the first bike with 'actual bike specific' ABS. The BMW system at the time was a modified car system. As it's a 1st generation system it had limitations for sure, one heavily publicised criticism was the rear ABS came on way too early. I would say 99.5% of my time I never felt the ABS come on, (I would occasionally just check it was operating on the rear, the front? I was a little chicken to do as it required about 30kph and a 'panic handful' of the front lever. I think I felt the front ABS actually work 3 times under riding conditions. The rear would 'click' every so often as per the 'complaint against it'

1st, coming to a roundabout in the wet, and a car decided to pull across almost into my side, I had to move across my lane. This put me on a large white arrow, only just started raining after several dry days, and under brakes... without the ABS I would no doubt have had a front wheel lock up and been dumped on the road.

2nd, on a 'Spirited' ride was the second bike following Kerry on his kwaka, round a corner with sheep all across the road (broke out of a fence) he had anchored up hard, I came round the bend on a bloody 'ocean Liner' at full steam ahead,, 275kg bike + 104kg rider on 1980's brakes.... No way could I stop in the distance left, so had to make an evading manoeuvre still under hard brakes.. ABS kicked in as I was canting the bike over.. stopped with no drama's other than about 5-8 mtrs past Kerry's bike.

3rd time, was again in the wet, and I will put my hand up for my 'inattention'... overtaking a car, as I got past him an oncoming 'high power'? Car had decided to boot it past a couple of other oncoming cars, I had to open it up, then brake quickly to get back into the the gap (had not allowed for the final required terminal overtaking speed) as I pulled in what I didnt notice till too late was a wet tar snake,,, front ABS activated and I finished the manoeuvre with no 'drama' again.....

Even with the brakes 'balanced' in those 3 scenario's the bike would have probably gone down without abs, I would go the other direction for learners, teach them correct braking technique first, so it becomes embedded, rather than allow handful grabbing, then try to retrain it.
Current bike doesnt have ABS, but I would certainly look at any bike I am considering purchasing to be equip with abs.

I can and do use cadence braking in suspect conditions, I rode 16 yrs in English winters, in these instances there was no 'anticipation' of treacherous 'footing' or simply had to react instantly, to avoid a collision.

[GrayWolf]

And not in just emergency situations .. EVERY situation ... <_<

The driver behind them wont be always prepared for that ... :laugh:

Very true, as a couple of riders found out on a club run, Vicky slammed on the brakes on the can am... believe me those things haul up bloody fast, it caught then out completely. (Spyder's have traction, abs, etc as standard.)

[FJRider]

Very true, as a couple of riders found out on a club run, Vicky slammed on the brakes on the can am... believe me those things haul up bloody fast, it caught then out completely. (Spyder's have traction, abs, etc as standard.)

Hence ... one eye on the mirrors ... on a regular basis. It pays to have a pretty good idea what (and how close) is behind you should you need to haul it up quickly. Not always a newbie issue either ...

[Katman]

We now have cars that have removed the need to learn how to parallel park too.

All in the name of dumbing down society, I guess.

[Ocean1]

Very true, as a couple of riders found out on a club run, Vicky slammed on the brakes on the can am... believe me those things haul up bloody fast, it caught then out completely. (Spyder's have traction, abs, etc as standard.)

Can testify to that, they stop quicker than anything you're likely to find on a public road.

[MrKiwi]

Sorry, can't agree with that statement.

If stopping in the shortest possible distance is the only requirement then maybe you'd be right.

But in the circumstance of scrubbing off as much speed as possible and then swerving to avoid a hazard, a death grip on the brake lever ain't going to do you any good.

And that, in a nutshell, is my greatest concern about ABS.

I can see it producing a breed of motorcyclist whose only reaction in an emergency becomes squeezing the lever as hard as they can.

Say what!???

The whole point of ABS on bikes (and cars for that matter) is to allow you to scrub off as much speed as you can/want/need to and still safety steer! End of story.

[Katman]

Say what!???

The whole point of ABS on bikes (and cars for that matter) is to allow you to scrub off as much speed as you can/want/need to and still safety steer! End of story.

Really?

I thought the whole point of ABS was to prevent the wheel locking up.

Have you tried veering suddenly to the side while under maximum braking force?

[pritch]

But that's your Luddite response.


Exactly. With the exception of dirt bikes there is no intelligent reason not to have ABS. The Luddite "riding gods" that think they can do better are deluding themselves. As has been pointed out, they soon won't have the option if they want a new bike.

I've never owned a bike with ABS but I'd be happy to have it. My understanding from those who have extensive experience with it is that you have to be braking seriously hard to activate the ABS at all. Most riders, particularly those who look further up the road than their front wheel, will never feel it operate.

[Katman]

Exactly. With the exception of dirt bikes there is no intelligent reason not to have ABS. The Luddite "riding gods" that think they can do better are deluding themselves. As has been pointed out, they soon won't have the option if they want a new bike.


Just to clarify my opinion.......

Regardless of how vital I consider myself to the continuing viability of global motorcycling (let's see how many of you take that comment seriously) I'm not deluded enough to think that the CEO's of the big Japanese four are calling a crisis meeting with their European counterparts to discuss that fact that Katman has pointed out that they've got it wrong.

You're welcome to your ABS. I'm highly unlikely to ever own a bike with it.

I simply see a danger of motorcyclists seeing ABS as some form of magical power.

I'd far prefer to see riders recognising their own limitations and aiming to improve their riding skill rather than relying on the ability to squeeze a lever tight.

[Corse1]

I voted have ABS but never felt it come on...but I have felt the REAR come on quite a few times. I voted negative as I have hauled up pretty fast in emergency situations and never felt the front come on at all.
Often thought I would give it a try on gravel just to see if the system is actually working but have never had the balls to give it a try:rolleyes:

I do believe there is a benefit for ABS, in the dry it is non intrusive on my model bike anyway, but knowing its there in the wet gives a measure of comfortable assurance. Thats if I ever have the balls to prove it is actually working. i figure if the rear cuts in every now and then, the front must be working as front and rear are controlled by the same ABS module. Hard braking lifts weight off the rear which is the reason I feel the ABS working.

Rather have ABS than the Honda linked brake system:shutup:

[bogan]

Really?

I thought the whole point of ABS was to prevent the wheel locking up.

Have you tried veering suddenly to the side while under maximum braking force?

Raises an interesting point, maximum braking force on most sportsbikes is going to be less than the tractive force available to prevent an endo. So in theory you could still turn it. With good ABS I think it would be very doable. However if the ABS takes over somewhat roughly, that'll mess with the cornering ability by unsettling the suspension etc. Perhaps more to the point though, is you could apply max braking force while cornering with the knowledge that it'll just stand the bike up and not wash the front out.

[GrayWolf]

Really?

I thought the whole point of ABS was to prevent the wheel locking up.

Have you tried veering suddenly to the side while under maximum braking force?

See my post YES I have,,,,,,

although I will agree/admit.. the dreaded sprotbike suspension is likely to react to ABS input differently to a tourer,,, then again I am not a believer of semi race suspension set ups on roads that are certainly not even 'fractionally race surfaces'

[Katman]

then again I am not a believer of semi race suspension set ups on roads that are certainly not even 'fractionally race surfaces'

Neither am I.

But that's the reality that we have to deal with.

[Edbear]

Fact remains that aside from the revered in his own mind Katman, everyone who has used or tried ABS including the ones in all the links here says it is a good thing, especially those who have had their arse saved by it.

General opinion today from the riders at HD was that it is a good thing. Stroudy says it would be handy in the wet, and if anyone should know how to brake it is him.

As the tech develops it will become intuitive and useful everywhere. As I said about my Kizashi, with every passive and active safety feature available, it is still fun to drive as they are there for emergencies not to drive the car for you. You still need to know how to ride or drive if you want to stay right side up and on the road. It's rubbish to talk about the dumbing down of riders or drivers. They still crash and kill themselves and others with or without the safety features.

[Katman]

Fact remains that aside from the revered in his own mind Katman, everyone who has used or tried ABS including the ones in all the links here says it is a good thing, especially those who have had their arse saved by it.



Have you actually looked at the poll?

(As flawed as it might be).

[Edbear]

Have you actually looked at the poll?

(As flawed as it might be).

Have you been reading the thread and the links?

[swbarnett]

They still crash and kill themselves and others with or without the safety features.
Doesn't this prove that, on a population level, they're not working?

My problem with ABS is not that I think I'm better at braking without it. It's that it comes at an enormous cost for very little real benifit. The more complicated vehicles get the more natural resources are required to build one and the dearer they get. Add to that a little risk homeostatis and things haven't changed all that much.

[davereid]

99.9% of the time you won't even know its there for normal road riding, you can still practice heavy braking. ... What's not to like?


I have been riding for more than 40 years, and I have practiced emergency braking on every bike I have ever owned until I'm blue in the face.

But when that dog runs out, that silly old cunt does a U turn, and I hit the brakes, I never seem to get it quite as right as I did when I was practicing.

But, as you say "whats not to like?"

If you are such a good rider that you can apply exactly the correct amount of braking force under all conditions and on all road surfaces, you will never even know if your bike has ABS.

[Edbear]

Doesn't this prove that, on a population level, they're not working?

My problem with ABS is not that I think I'm better at braking without it. It's that it comes at an enormous cost for very little real benifit. The more complicated vehicles get the more natural resources are required to build one and the dearer they get. Add to that a little risk homeostatis and things haven't changed all that much.

No, considering most accidents occur where emergency braking is not the problem, ie: crossing the centre line, running off the road, it remains that active and passive safety features are effective where they do come into play.


I have been riding for more than 40 years, and I have practiced emergency braking on every bike I have ever owned until I'm blue in the face.

But when that dog runs out, that silly old cunt does a U turn, and I hit the brakes, I never seem to get it quite as right as I did when I was practicing.

But, as you say "whats not to like?"

If you are such a good rider that you can apply exactly the correct amount of braking force under all conditions and on all road surfaces, you will never even know if your bike has ABS.

Persackly!

[MaxCannon]

I have it an it's saved my bacon.
Both times in the wet when cars have turned in front of me as if I'm not there.
Could I have stopped in time with it switched off? - maybe.
Would I have tucked the front and kissed the tarmac instead? possibly.
I think for me the most benfit is retaining control in that initial moment of panic braking.

It's switchable and on the track I turn it off as it cuts in too early and ruins the brake feel.
I'm also fairly confident that no taxis are going to cut accross by path as I'm braking for T1 at Hampton.

[240]

kizashi???? What the hells that ?

[jonbuoy]

I have been riding for more than 40 years, and I have practiced emergency braking on every bike I have ever owned until I'm blue in the face.

But when that dog runs out, that silly old cunt does a U turn, and I hit the brakes, I never seem to get it quite as right as I did when I was practicing.

But, as you say "whats not to like?"

If you are such a good rider that you can apply exactly the correct amount of braking force under all conditions and on all road surfaces, you will never even know if your bike has ABS.

If your a new rider what better bike to practice emergency stops on in an wet empty car park. If you feel the ABS kick in your braking too hard.

[Edbear]

kizashi???? What the hells that ?

It's a Suzuki, mate, but not as you know it, :msn-wink:

It's our car, actually, but the example was to point out that active safety doesn't detract from the drive/ride as they are only there for emergencies.

[Paul in NZ]

Its a moot point what you personally think of ABS as pretty soon it will be a non negotiable feature of motorcycles. The EU have pretty much already made it mandatory in new bikes and I cant see the yanks being far behind.

Riding a motorcycle isnt like driving a car - it requires a different mindset and a more active involvement. Some would say more skills as well and yet most riders are also drivers at a time when driving a car is becoming easier and easier. Better engine management systems and hardly any manual transmissions are changing driving and changing the skill base. Cars don't pink and stall in the wrong gear, tyres are wider, traction never lets go, brakes work and they are generally much more 'forgiving'. Its inevitable that this moves over to riding as well...

Its unlikely I will ever own one yet both my regular road bikes have a form of ABS. The Triumph 2LS brake is a real peach with lots of servo effect and a wonderful 'feel' allowing the rider to easily avoid lock up. The Moto Guzzi 'linked' brake system is similarly very good and 'squats' the bike nicely while hauling the plot up very smartly (for its age) but I admit both need a sympathetic rider and some time in the saddle...

In the end - if you are a purchaser of new bikes it wont matter - ABS will be standard inside 5 years.

[Paul in NZ]

I was told BMW ABS can cost $3000 to service and having ridden BMW with and without abs (2004 model) the difference was negligable on a dry road and I now have 4 wheels for the wet anyway.

This extra cost IS going to be an issue. Also as these vehicles age they will become illegal and worthless due to failing systems (hmm - might need to reconsider that - lots of old CDI bikes still going)

Motorcycling is on its way to being a very expensive hobby for the wealthy. The EU wont insist on ABS for scooters which is where the huddled masses will end up...

[Mr. Peanut]

Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of women giving a shit?

I think that's because not wanting ABS has more to do with egotistical posturing than rational thought; if it aint that, it's defending your purchase, because we're all fond of our darling and god forbid we ever wake up in the night, drenched in sweat in the realisation that the braking system of our motorcycle might be... inferior!

:eek:

[GTRMAN]

Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of women giving a shit?

I think that's because not wanting ABS has more to do with egotistical posturing than rational thought; if it aint that, it's defending your purchase, because we're all fond of our darling and god forbid we ever wake up in the night, drenched in sweat in the realisation that the braking system of our motorcycle might be... inferior!

:eek:

A valid point, but you gonna need this now...

274415

[Maha]

It's a Suzuki, mate, but not as you know it, :msn-wink:

It's our car, actually, but the example was to point out that active safety doesn't detract from the drive/ride as they are only there for emergencies.

Learn to park properly will ya Ed?..:rolleyes:

[240]

It's a Suzuki, mate, but not as you know it, :msn-wink:

It's our car, actually, but the example was to point out that active safety doesn't detract from the drive/ride as they are only there for emergencies.

Aaah yeah sorry man now that you mention it I have seen those around, they are a real cool looking car.:yes:
Didn't know the name though

[Edbear]

Learn to park properly will ya Ed?..:rolleyes:

:bleh: you sound like Jill and the kids! I wasn't taking two spaces... Okay, I will try to do better. <_<


Aaah yeah sorry man now that you mention it I have seen those around, they are a real cool looking car.:yes:
Didn't know the name though

Love it! 18 mths and 38,000km later it's the best car I have ever owned by a long shot! :niceone:

[MrKiwi]

Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of women giving a shit?

I think that's because not wanting ABS has more to do with egotistical posturing than rational thought; if it aint that, it's defending your purchase, because we're all fond of our darling and god forbid we ever wake up in the night, drenched in sweat in the realisation that the braking system of our motorcycle might be... inferior!

:eek:


Pretty much - well said...:rockon:

[Devil]

I was told BMW ABS can cost $3000 to service ...

What do you mean by 'Service'?

I had the servo assisted ABS on my R1200GSA flushed and tested with diagnostic report for about $150 from a BMW dealer. Thats the recommended 'service' every 2 years or so.

[Graelin]

Once apon a time I used to race and ride hard, I felt I knew my bike well enough to handle any emergency without locking up wheels.

Now I dont race and dont do a lot of regular heavy braking, therefore I would not be as good in a sudden emergency as I once thought I was.

I picked up my 2000 BMW and 38 Kms later on a wet road a car did a right turn in front of me I was doing about 35KPH. ABS saved me from either going down or hitting the car, yes I just hit the brakes hard and it stopped straight and quickly. This is the only near miss with a car in 60,000kms of riding.

On the other hand my brothers five year old BMW required $4,700 to repair the brakes or disconnect them.

My 1984 Yamaha RZ 350 lost a lot of rear tyre missing a roo tho!

My vote is firmly in the ABS camp.

[swbarnett]

There is something that may have a real influence on the relative merits of ABS that I don't think has been considered.

The comparisons tests between ABS and non-ABS braking using highly experienced riders show that ABS can out-brake non-ABS. However, these tests are all under very controlled conditions. The riders know they are about to perform an emergency stop. This puts the brain in a very different state than when the need for an emergency stop is not expected. In a true emergency situation a rider's sub-conscious mind comes much more into play. It just might be possible that an intuitive rider can out-brake ABS under real world conditions.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Funny to note that all the naysayers are those who have never had it or used it, whereas all those who have used it or tested it are all for it. But that's the KB way I guess.
:

I've ridden dozens of bikes with it but I'm not all for it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I reckon ABS would have saved it. At 10kph.

Anyone that crashes a motorcycle like that at 10kph should give it away. I don't care how bad the surface was...ice I might forgive.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You mean the KB "experts" of course... :confused: the real experts are in favour of it.

Not all of 'em Ed.

[george formby]

There is something that may have a real influence on the relative merits of ABS that I don't think has been considered.

The comparisons tests between ABS and non-ABS braking using highly experienced riders show that ABS can out-brake non-ABS. However, these tests are all under very controlled conditions. The riders know they are about to perform an emergency stop. This puts the brain in a very different state than when the need for an emergency stop is not expected. In a true emergency situation a rider's sub-conscious mind comes much more into play. It just might be possible that an intuitive rider can out-brake ABS under real world conditions.


Might being the operative word. And you do have a point, when it comes down to that last skerrick of friction to haul your ass up which will perform best?
I have started practicing braking and consequently learned a lot about me & my bike. Non ABS, not a lot of brakes either really, but enough and I have a weak neck.
If the technology will save my ass when the random incident happens on a marginally grippy piece of road or even give me that fraction of a second to bruise myself rather than be broken then I'm all for it.
I can't afford big servicing costs so if that was the case then it would be a big consideration if buying an ABS bike, I would rather spend the money on petrol. ABS is a relatively small thing in the big scheme of riding a bike but a bit safer is a bit better.

[Big Dave]

Anyone that crashes a motorcycle like that at 10kph should give it away. I don't care how bad the surface was...ice I might forgive.

You wouldn't have a business.

[GrayWolf]

There is something that may have a real influence on the relative merits of ABS that I don't think has been considered.

The comparisons tests between ABS and non-ABS braking using highly experienced riders show that ABS can out-brake non-ABS. However, these tests are all under very controlled conditions. The riders know they are about to perform an emergency stop. This puts the brain in a very different state than when the need for an emergency stop is not expected. In a true emergency situation a rider's sub-conscious mind comes much more into play. It just might be possible that an intuitive rider can out-brake ABS under real world conditions.

I believe (heard) andrew Templeton found he could outbrake his ABS bike on a non ABS one... this may be true? Reality is, how many of us are as competent AS Andrew? ABS should be and is a last ditch ass saver. it's like the traction control, anti roll, etc etc on cars, all very good till you push the vehicle beyond the ability of the computers to save your stupid arse. Ride/drive like you have none of them, then when you Do need them? They perform as they should (hopefully).

[Crasherfromwayback]

I believe (heard) andrew Templeton found he could outbrake his ABS bike on a non ABS one... this may be true? Reality is, how many of us are as competent AS Andrew?).

Hopefully quite a few.

[pzkpfw]

Flippety flip flop!

Just had a postie step out in front of my car.

(He was on left side of road, on a bit where there was no footpath. He was obscured by the long grass on the bank that was right up to the edge of the road, between me and him. He looked up the road and stepped out - didn't look my way. On the other hand, my speed at that time may have crept a bit over 50 and I had just changed the CD that was playing (a changer, no physical CD swapped, but still a bit distracting). Fault? Wouldn't matter either way if he'd been made a red smear on the road.)

My instinct was simply to stop and stop fast. That meant stamping hard on the brake pedal. I felt the ABS kick back a little, and I stopped in plenty of time. Friendly wave passed back and forth, and I was on my way.

An expert driver may have stopped even quicker, without use of ABS, but I'm happy * to admit that I'm no expert driver or rider. Glad my car stops quick, regardless (more or less) of what I do.


(* in the sense that I'm not happy that I'm not an "expert", but more that I'm happy to admit that I'm not, as opposed to many keyboard warrior types. (Not pointing the finger at anyone).)

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Glad my car stops quick, regardless (more or less) of what I do.


.)

I'm all for it in cars.