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Terror
8th December 2012, 22:00
Hi,


Not sure if this is the right forum...

So... picked up a project bike and need some directions / recommendations for a few things.

The bike I brought was listing # 535716656 on Trademe (check the expired auctions if your interested or hit this link http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=535716656 )

She needs a fair bit of work, some of which I am capable of doing, some not so much... So let me bullet out the guidance I need currently...

1.) I want to get the front forks chromed. What sort of prep would this require? Do divits in the metal matter or will the chroming process cover this up? Can anyone suggest a business in Auckland that can do a good job, at a fair price of course?

2.) This beast came with a seized Triumph 750? engine, i'm not sure if I want to use this engine as I prefer the look of V Twin type engines but I am considerate of the cost involved in buying another engine. So.. is there someone in Auckland / NZ that is a reputible Trumpy engine rebuilder, and ballpark (yes ballpark), what might I be looking at to do a full rebuild on a Trumpy engine? and what sorta cost to do it myself? Also, what might an engine in this state be worth on the second hand market?

3.) Can anyone recommend a good panel shop.. I'd like to get the frame acid dipped and etch primed, but i'd also like the "clean" welds tidyed up ect etc..

Thats about all I am looking for at the moment, probably a few months work in those jobs :)

Cheers!

Terror

Coolz
8th December 2012, 22:26
Preparation is the key to a good chrome job. Blemish's do show through. You can hand polish starting with a fine grade of wet and dry sand paper and soapy water. Then repeat with a finer grade; then repeat... ending up with Autosol and brown paper. Or you can take it to a metal polisher to do it for you.

Your choice of engine depends on what will fit. That front mount on the frame and the size of the engine bay looks to me like it was set up for a Triumph.

Good luck with the project, you're going to learn heaps.

The Lone Rider
8th December 2012, 22:46
I had a number of comments, but I've deleted all of them.


The only thing I will say is you need a working roller before you dick around with anything else.

Good luck.

Terror
8th December 2012, 23:13
Preparation is the key to a good chrome job. Blemish's do show through. You can hand polish starting with a fine grade of wet and dry sand paper and soapy water. Then repeat with a finer grade; then repeat... ending up with Autosol and brown paper. Or you can take it to a metal polisher to do it for you.

Your choice of engine depends on what will fit. That front mount on the frame and the size of the engine bay looks to me like it was set up for a Triumph.

Good luck with the project, you're going to learn heaps.

Yes, I am going to learn A LOT! Thanks for the input re polishing, sounds like I have my work cut out for me.... I used Bay Polishers in the past for a Rotary project I had, maybe I will see what they can do.

The frame does indeed seem like it was setup for the engine (I understand this machine was once running), would I be looking at a lot of work to convert to say an S&S? - is that even possible? I don't really know the dimensions of the V type engines? I guess at least it will require different mounts.

Terror
8th December 2012, 23:15
I had a number of comments, but I've deleted all of them.


The only thing I will say is you need a working roller before you dick around with anything else.

Good luck.

Yeah, I know the drill... I've had many a project that didnt get off the group because it literally wasnt moving. Very easy to loose interest with something that sits there.

carburator
9th December 2012, 07:48
this is where the waters get murky.. Low volume cert...

to fit a S&S you are wasting your time as the frame is not
build for that motor and gearbox.

someone has covered the chrome front end.

dressing of welds...

unless its a complete seagull shit weld that needs to be sorted
the biggest issue is pipe wall thickness, ive seen way to many dressed
to smooth, lay on a steel rule and they would be lucky to have any pipe left.

you got to ask yourself, its your ass going down the road are you willing to risk it..

Motor, sorry no idea thats a how long a piece of string is?

media blast the frame DO NOT ACID DIP! why because they never can neutralise
it, better to be blowing out grit for a few days.

Id die pentrate inspect the welds
give it all a good buff up with a wire brush, any welds im not happy with use a TIG
welder on and use the current weld as a filler and maybe a dab of SS to remove prosity

Terror
9th December 2012, 13:58
this is where the waters get murky.. Low volume cert...

to fit a S&S you are wasting your time as the frame is not
build for that motor and gearbox.

someone has covered the chrome front end.

dressing of welds...

unless its a complete seagull shit weld that needs to be sorted
the biggest issue is pipe wall thickness, ive seen way to many dressed
to smooth, lay on a steel rule and they would be lucky to have any pipe left.

you got to ask yourself, its your ass going down the road are you willing to risk it..

Motor, sorry no idea thats a how long a piece of string is?

media blast the frame DO NOT ACID DIP! why because they never can neutralise
it, better to be blowing out grit for a few days.

Id die pentrate inspect the welds
give it all a good buff up with a wire brush, any welds im not happy with use a TIG
welder on and use the current weld as a filler and maybe a dab of SS to remove prosity

Can you elaborate on what you mean by LVC?

If the frame isn't built for S&S what are my potential repower options? I'm almost thinking about rebuilding the engine myself, but who know's what will be found once it's cracked open. I've never tried to rebuild a siezed engine, but i'd guess I need to loosen the pistons somehow as the kickstart is pretty much rock solid, so it's probably fairly involved.. rings, head gasket, oversize the block etc

re: dressing of welds, it looks like someone learned to weld on it in places. I could do a better job stickwelding with my right hand tied behind my back and my eyes closed.. It actually looks as fi the rear subframe has been welded onto the main frame, lacquered in some shitty paint which i'd be willing to take a punt and say it's been brushed on..

Im not entirely sure I understand your description "to smooth, lay on a steel rule and they would be lucky to have any pipe left"

Media blast it you think, shot blast or sand blast?

Cheers, getting lots of great help here! Sorry if i'm seeming like needing spoonfeeding!

The Lone Rider
9th December 2012, 14:32
Can you elaborate on what you mean by LVC? !

That means compliance from start of the build, to the end of the build, for it to be road legal. Everything you build and modify needs to be inspected, logged, and approved to get final road certification. If you started with an already built bike, and modified it then it would be a different process and some of the changes you wouldnt need inspected.

More so if you're going to chop the frame to fit an S&S, Ultima, or other air cooled American Vtwin; which you will likely need to do as I think they will be noticeably taller than the British engine.

BIG DOUG
9th December 2012, 16:44
that is a triumph frame,I would rebuild the mtr and it should be fun,but there is no way you are going to get a v-twin in there

FJRider
9th December 2012, 18:22
If the frame isn't built for S&S what are my potential repower options?

On the Trademe add it said "Custom Rolling Chassis" ... not "Professionally Built Rolling Chassis". You mentioned the Birdshit welding that needs a tidy. Doesn't sound that professional to me. And unless the welding has been certified (Welding done by a certified welder) ... they will just point you to the door ... laughing as they kick your ass out of the testing station.

ANY cutting of ANY part of the chassis will require RE-certifying ... as will ANY further welds.

Don't spend (read WASTE) money on fancy bits or paint UNTILL it is certified for use on the road. THEN strip and rebuild ... with the fancy bits.

But it IS your money ...



Im not entirely sure I understand your description "to smooth, lay on a steel rule and they would be lucky to have any pipe left"

Cheers, getting lots of great help here! Sorry if i'm seeming like needing spoonfeeding!

Find out what the pipe sizes/specs were before it was fashioned into that.

Remove ANY steel from ANY welds and you effectively weaken the weld joints. (they don't like that)

Talk to a testing station BEFORE you do ANYTHING ... see what THEY require YOU to do ... step by step.

Brian d marge
9th December 2012, 18:24
LVC has been posted here before and from memory in chch the hotrod club was the best for info there is even a book they publish
When I did resto work once or twice , I left the welds so that they could be inspected by the same guy, then I would paint.
Triumph engines while being simple need a little knowledge to build. I've seen many slapped together, and they will run .....but
Chrome on forks , as has been said prep is important and the blemishes will show , some people can weaken the part by to much polishing
Get the parts you need
Incl engine ( so just get it running)
Get a rolling chassis
Iron out bugs
Now spend money ....on bling

Just a thought , if you can , see if the frame has been rego before and you might try to get out of the lvc , worth a try
Though if you have the engineer on your side , its piece of mind that everything is safe


I'm just starting a new project myself , just finished the frame jig........

Stephen

imdying
10th December 2012, 09:54
I had a number of comments, but I've deleted all of them.


The only thing I will say is you need a working roller before you dick around with anything else.

Good luck.

I'm with stupid. You're so far away from worrying about chrome it's not funny! Definitely heed the advice about doing your cert the entire way through, and the bit about not raping the welds with a grinder just so they look pretty!

Stick a busa motor in it! :D

HenryDorsetCase
10th December 2012, 10:04
Consider picking up a Hinckley Triumph Twin. (i.e. a new one not an old one). Sure the engine is heavier than the original but it has modern architecture, electronic ignition, and no oil leaks. Plus they can look the part. I've seen crashed new Bonnies going for ~$3k on tardme and you get a bike that might have other bits you can use or deal off. food for thought?

Road kill
10th December 2012, 11:20
Consider picking up a Hinckley Triumph Twin. (i.e. a new one not an old one). Sure the engine is heavier than the original but it has modern architecture, electronic ignition, and no oil leaks. Plus they can look the part. I've seen crashed new Bonnies going for ~$3k on tardme and you get a bike that might have other bits you can use or deal off. food for thought?

That frame wouldn't handle a new Bonnie engine for long before the cracks started to appear.

HenryDorsetCase
10th December 2012, 12:07
That frame wouldn't handle a new Bonnie engine for long before the cracks started to appear.

looking at it, I agree. Plus the first thing to do is shorten that front end by about four feet. All the cool kids are building bobbers or trackers these days. Gas axe off the headstock, point it at a sensible angle, even keep the girder, just more than halve the length of the forks.

But its a big project....

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:02
That means compliance from start of the build, to the end of the build, for it to be road legal. Everything you build and modify needs to be inspected, logged, and approved to get final road certification. If you started with an already built bike, and modified it then it would be a different process and some of the changes you wouldnt need inspected.

More so if you're going to chop the frame to fit an S&S, Ultima, or other air cooled American Vtwin; which you will likely need to do as I think they will be noticeably taller than the British engine.

I see, I see.. Sounds like a much more involved process than a boy racer banger.

I've actually managed to drop the engine into the frame this evening to see how it might look with the current config and pipes.. and to be honest, it's far better than I expected and i'm now leaning towards sticking with the trumpy..

Cheers for your input!

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:13
that is a triumph frame,I would rebuild the mtr and it should be fun,but there is no way you are going to get a v-twin in there

Yes it was definitely once a proper bike frame and appears the only cut / modified section is the front end. And I think I am with you there on the engine rebuild!

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:19
On the Trademe add it said "Custom Rolling Chassis" ... not "Professionally Built Rolling Chassis". You mentioned the Birdshit welding that needs a tidy. Doesn't sound that professional to me. And unless the welding has been certified (Welding done by a certified welder) ... they will just point you to the door ... laughing as they kick your ass out of the testing station.

ANY cutting of ANY part of the chassis will require RE-certifying ... as will ANY further welds.

Don't spend (read WASTE) money on fancy bits or paint UNTILL it is certified for use on the road. THEN strip and rebuild ... with the fancy bits.

But it IS your money ...

Find out what the pipe sizes/specs were before it was fashioned into that.

Remove ANY steel from ANY welds and you effectively weaken the weld joints. (they don't like that)

Talk to a testing station BEFORE you do ANYTHING ... see what THEY require YOU to do ... step by step.


Hahaha, I like that "... laughing as they kick your ass out of the testing station" Okay, sounds like i'm going to be paying VTNZ a visit then baremetaling the frame..

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:21
LVC has been posted here before and from memory in chch the hotrod club was the best for info there is even a book they publish
When I did resto work once or twice , I left the welds so that they could be inspected by the same guy, then I would paint.
Triumph engines while being simple need a little knowledge to build. I've seen many slapped together, and they will run .....but
Chrome on forks , as has been said prep is important and the blemishes will show , some people can weaken the part by to much polishing
Get the parts you need
Incl engine ( so just get it running)
Get a rolling chassis
Iron out bugs
Now spend money ....on bling

Just a thought , if you can , see if the frame has been rego before and you might try to get out of the lvc , worth a try
Though if you have the engineer on your side , its piece of mind that everything is safe


I'm just starting a new project myself , just finished the frame jig........

Stephen

Sounds like a plan! The frame didn't come with any old plates, and it's obviously been sitting outside for a long time, the seller said he brought it about 6 years ago, more or less in it's current state, and the amount of crapola which was on it I think that's pretty credible.

Good luck on your project!

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:23
I'm with stupid. You're so far away from worrying about chrome it's not funny! Definitely heed the advice about doing your cert the entire way through, and the bit about not raping the welds with a grinder just so they look pretty!

Stick a busa motor in it! :D

I have no idea what a busa is....? Sounds asain or something...

jellywrestler
10th December 2012, 20:25
that is a triumph frame,I would rebuild the mtr and it should be fun,but there is no way you are going to get a v-twin in there

yep there is, a Honda CX500 will go in!

jellywrestler
10th December 2012, 20:26
I have no idea what a busa is....? . the computer you use for kiwibiker will also get you a thing called Google to find out with...

Terror
10th December 2012, 20:27
looking at it, I agree. Plus the first thing to do is shorten that front end by about four feet. All the cool kids are building bobbers or trackers these days. Gas axe off the headstock, point it at a sensible angle, even keep the girder, just more than halve the length of the forks.

But its a big project....

haha, cheers for the input! I'm not really into bobbers to be fair, i'd rather be a 'lame' kid.. No seriously, they make me think about my grandfather wearing stubbies drinking DB or XXXX with some sorta shitty old honda bike.

Big projects are good! I have lots of time on my hands!! I've just scratch built a launch and engine, so this is something new to get immersed in.

Cheers!

FJRider
10th December 2012, 20:35
Hahaha, I like that "... laughing as they kick your ass out of the testing station" Okay, sounds like i'm going to be paying VTNZ a visit then baremetaling the frame..

Metal thickness in the frame pipe ... can be found by drilling (small) holes. This will also show how even the thickness is at various points.

FJRider
10th December 2012, 20:38
I have no idea what a busa is....? Sounds asain or something...

It's Japanese ... and eats Blackbirds ... :msn-wink:

Terror
10th December 2012, 21:44
the computer you use for kiwibiker will also get you a thing called Google to find out with...

Wow, i've not seen this 'Google' before, been stuck on Yahoo for years. haha.

At least my punt was more or less on par. Not too keen on anything like that, but thanks.

Terror
10th December 2012, 21:48
Metal thickness in the frame pipe ... can be found by drilling (small) holes. This will also show how even the thickness is at various points.

Visually, looks like 1" in most parts. But yeah, I understand. Aside from wombat welds i'd be inclined to say shes relatively unmolestered. I will find the camera and put some photos up over the next couple of days.. seems like this is going to be a long thread..

Terror
10th December 2012, 21:50
It's Japanese ... and eats Blackbirds ... :msn-wink:

I'd be willing to take a punt and say it's a pile of shit and dung beetles eat it - no offence (I have a raw humor!)






Anyway, thanks to everyone for the comments so far, I'm glad I found this place as it seems there is a wealth of knowledge and a bag of laughs to be had!

FJRider
11th December 2012, 06:55
I'd be willing to take a punt and say it's a pile of shit and dung beetles eat it - no offence (I have a raw humor!)

CLOSE ... it's a suzuki ... and suzuki riders aren't easily offended ...

The correct model name is GSX1300R Hayabusa ...



Anyway, thanks to everyone for the comments so far, I'm glad I found this place as it seems there is a wealth of knowledge and a bag of laughs to be had!

If it's known ... it'll be known here ... :shifty:

And what we DON'T know ... we make up ... :laugh:

The fine line between facts and assumptions ... can get a little blurred ... :facepalm:

Road kill
11th December 2012, 07:45
If you already have the skills "just rebuilt a launch and engine" then rebuilding the Triumph won't be a big stretch for you.

Just make sure you do check all tolerances and use a tourqe wrench on everything the book say's you should "and DON'T use second hand parts if you don't know their history.

My own 650 engine cost me around $3000 to rebuild doing 90% of it myself.

Your frame is for a 650,,,which is a better engine than the 750,,,but you never know what the top end an cams will be until you get into it.

If you have round inspection covers "front an rear" on the head "it's a 650 head,,one single inspection plate "front an rear" "it's a 750 head".

From there you work your way down checking everything because most of the top end can be mixed an matched.

In fact it can be a F'ing nightmare working out exactly what some people did to these engines back in the day.

There will be an ID stamping on the right hand side of the crank cases just below the barrels,,,but that is only a starting point due to that "mix an match" thing.

If that stamping has been messed with in any way then the process of getting it all legal and on the books can be VERY drawn out.

A couple of close up pic's of the engine. "one from either side an a lot of people here will be able to give you a very good idea of what your dealing with.

Thanks for the thread.

carburator
11th December 2012, 09:17
sorry been busy for a few days. apologise if things are out of order
in list of issues

VTNZ have nothing to do with LVC you need to contact a certifing engineer.

here is the murky waters.. There are currently no rules and reg's for motorbikes
built for LVC its pretty much at the discrection of the owner. The hotrod builders
guide and LVC website for cars is heavy reading however its your life..

what the certifing engineer is looking for is good build pratices and methods.
materials come in there as well, the rule of thumb is the added pipe
( in your case the hard tail ) should be of the same diamater and thickness of
the original frame or greater.

your rear axle plates has been fish plated to the tube which is a good pratice
what would be good is clear photographs of the rear hard tail to the original
frame ( is the load path being spread and are the load forces being meet in the
right plane ) ( basic tube frame building )

second thing they are going to look at and this is the first thing you are going to
check after reading this is the tracking alignment of the rear wheel to the front.
and also headstock alingment to the rear axle these are two things the certifing
engineer is going to look at. if the tracking of the wheels and vertical of the headstock
is out the bike certianly will not handle right.

The current reason a lot of peaple build bobbers or trackers is you can delete
most of the factory brackets to get a clean frame or dock the frame and add
a frame loop which does not interfer with the orginal suspenion mounting points.

Media blasting ( plastic media or soda ) does not warp the frame sand blasting
done properly does'nt either however I find the first two methods to be better
for paint finish but also cleaning.

Terror
13th December 2012, 11:54
If you already have the skills "just rebuilt a launch and engine" then rebuilding the Triumph won't be a big stretch for you.

Just make sure you do check all tolerances and use a tourqe wrench on everything the book say's you should "and DON'T use second hand parts if you don't know their history.

My own 650 engine cost me around $3000 to rebuild doing 90% of it myself.

Your frame is for a 650,,,which is a better engine than the 750,,,but you never know what the top end an cams will be until you get into it.

If you have round inspection covers "front an rear" on the head "it's a 650 head,,one single inspection plate "front an rear" "it's a 750 head".

From there you work your way down checking everything because most of the top end can be mixed an matched.

In fact it can be a F'ing nightmare working out exactly what some people did to these engines back in the day.

There will be an ID stamping on the right hand side of the crank cases just below the barrels,,,but that is only a starting point due to that "mix an match" thing.

If that stamping has been messed with in any way then the process of getting it all legal and on the books can be VERY drawn out.

A couple of close up pic's of the engine. "one from either side an a lot of people here will be able to give you a very good idea of what your dealing with.

Thanks for the thread.

How is it you know the frame is for a 650? The frame & engine do look quite similar to one currently on Trademe (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-539072325.htm) but mine is obviously a lot more raked.


$3000 isn't bad for an engine rebuild, i'd obviously expect it to be looking and running pretty good after that! I did manage to locate a stamp on the side fo the engine which says 'XH22707' but I'm not sure I understand the number sequencing as I am having trouble finding anything..

I will see if I have time to crack it open this weekend and see if it looks like it's worth my time. The exterier is very dirty / weathered and it almost looks as if the crome covers would need to be recromed or replaced.

I will also try and get some images up for you all soon, my digital camera has died which means I will need to get my laptop down there to use the camera on it..

Cheers!

Terror
13th December 2012, 12:12
Well quick update..

I have found a bloke on the North Shore who is going to handle the soda blasting for me. - Autoblast Limited, he quoted around $250 over the phone to blast it back to metal and a further $200 or so to eproxy prime (I don't think I will get prime done). He knows a bunch of engineers who I am able to book in to inspect the welds once it's baremetalled for LVC. if the engineer is happy with it go straight to the paint shop, if not...well we will tackle that problem should it arrise...

So...I've also been doing a bit of reading about powdercoating or paint and have deciced to get the frame powdercoated. A friend has referred me to Powderworks in Onehunga, and they quoted around $350 to zinc dip and coat the frame, tank and guards. The frame needs to be freshly blasted if I am powdercoating, so this may or may not mean another round of blasting, pending the above engineer report. I will probably get the front struts powdercoated too rather than going chrome due to the work thats involved.. I will strip the paint off and see what shape the struts are in soon before commiting though.

The above is all on hold due to the Chrismas break, but over the next few weeks I plan on shopping for bits and bobs and shifting focus on the engine.

Paul in NZ
13th December 2012, 12:28
How is it you know the frame is for a 650? The frame & engine do look quite similar to one currently on Trademe (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-539072325.htm) but mine is obviously a lot more raked.


$3000 isn't bad for an engine rebuild, i'd obviously expect it to be looking and running pretty good after that! I did manage to locate a stamp on the side fo the engine which says 'XH22707' but I'm not sure I understand the number sequencing as I am having trouble finding anything..

I will see if I have time to crack it open this weekend and see if it looks like it's worth my time. The exterier is very dirty / weathered and it almost looks as if the crome covers would need to be recromed or replaced.

I will also try and get some images up for you all soon, my digital camera has died which means I will need to get my laptop down there to use the camera on it..

Cheers!

It looks very like a 63 to 69 650 front frame diamond with a hardtail added. A 70 has a small triangular plate for the front motor mount, earlier has the welded bracket. 71 onwards has a large diameter tube as the spine of the frame that carries the oil and twin down tubes...

XH22707 is Dec 72/73. There will be a model designation in front of the numbers which should be stamped into a raised boss with 'Triumph' repeatedly stamped into it. This could be T120R, T120RV or TR6R, TR6RV etc etc etc Anything with TR6 is a single carb 650cc, T120 650cc twin carb, V indicated 5 speed gearbox, R indicates american or export spec. At that time it us unlikely to be a 750 (T140) although if it is be careful as it could be one of the oddball not quite a 750 and oops we cocked the new gearbox up models.

Lots of 650's have aftermarket 750 kits on them which vary in quality and the only sure way to tell is to lift the lid and compare. The last 650's had the same rocker box arrangement as the 750's which was an improvement but if it has a T140 top end grafted on it will have 2 socket headed bolts between the rocker boxes holding the head on as all factory 750's (apart from T120RT) have a 10 stud head and 650's a 9 stud head.

$3K is light for a decent rebuild but if its just a top end it will be about right. (rebore, pistons, valves, guides etc etc)

Read off the rest of the number and I can tell you more.

Post a picture of the engine as well

Paul in NZ
13th December 2012, 12:31
Nope - don't paint or chrome a darn thing until you have everything sitting in place and the engine running and the bike is mobile. They will want to see the welds in the raw and ALWAYS do a dry build before painting. For a custom, powder is too dull, get glossy 2 pack...

Terror
13th December 2012, 18:05
It looks very like a 63 to 69 650 front frame diamond with a hardtail added. A 70 has a small triangular plate for the front motor mount, earlier has the welded bracket. 71 onwards has a large diameter tube as the spine of the frame that carries the oil and twin down tubes...

XH22707 is Dec 72/73. There will be a model designation in front of the numbers which should be stamped into a raised boss with 'Triumph' repeatedly stamped into it. This could be T120R, T120RV or TR6R, TR6RV etc etc etc Anything with TR6 is a single carb 650cc, T120 650cc twin carb, V indicated 5 speed gearbox, R indicates american or export spec. At that time it us unlikely to be a 750 (T140) although if it is be careful as it could be one of the oddball not quite a 750 and oops we cocked the new gearbox up models.

Lots of 650's have aftermarket 750 kits on them which vary in quality and the only sure way to tell is to lift the lid and compare. The last 650's had the same rocker box arrangement as the 750's which was an improvement but if it has a T140 top end grafted on it will have 2 socket headed bolts between the rocker boxes holding the head on as all factory 750's (apart from T120RT) have a 10 stud head and 650's a 9 stud head.

$3K is light for a decent rebuild but if its just a top end it will be about right. (rebore, pistons, valves, guides etc etc)

Read off the rest of the number and I can tell you more.

Post a picture of the engine as well

Thanks for the insight Paul, as soon as I got home I scrubbed back the area around where I found the XH stamp and found the rest of it! It says T140V, so based on the detail you gave that makes it a 750cc 5 speed, which may also be a 4 speed! Well that's promising I guess, I think it needs a lot of work! I will see if I have time tonight to remove the head... might need some CRC as the nuts are rather corroded.

Coolz
13th December 2012, 20:47
Also makes it a Bonneville. If the gear change is on the left it's a 5 speed. If the intake ports are splayed it's pre '79.

Road kill
13th December 2012, 22:12
Paul pretty much said it all "I only picked it as a 650 frame because it's not an oil in frame and I don't believe the 750's came in the earlier non oil in frame tanks.

Your right in that your T140V engine could be either 4 or 5 speed "but a T140V should be left hand change no matter how many gears it is.

I've had a 1973 T140V that was a four speed that I converted to 5 speed soon after I bought it.

If it is a 4 speed and you want to go 5,,you will need the 5 speed right hand "inner" gear box cover to go along with the 5 speed cluster.

Other than that it's a straight swop.

Today I was looking through the HD XL Forums and there's an early Triumph framed bike in there with an XLH Iron head engine in it "so I guess it can be done if you'd really like a V twin engine,,,,and a challenge.

Paul in NZ
14th December 2012, 07:07
If its a T140 then it should be a 5 speed. ALL T140's are 5 speeds. They were all right hand change until 76 or so when then moved it to the left. Thats when the rear disk arrived. ANY T140 with a 4 speed transmission has had it robbed for something else. (5 speeders are always in demand and 4 speeders are common and cheap)

However this is one of the earliest T140's I've ever heard of as they were officially introduced in '73 (obviously made in 72 though). Because its a very very early T140 it might be one of the weird harold 728cc ones and it might have the troublesome 1st generation 5 speed as fitted to some of the 650's. The gearbox is not an issue as there are several fixes known and Triumph issued an upgrade and service bulletin about it. HOWEVER not all the gears/shafts are 100% compatible with the later ones. The odd engine bore size can cause issues purchasing parts but British spares should be aware of it if any of the good triumph guys are still there.

These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA....

The T140's were toned down a bit due to issues with the main bearings. That was solved with better bearings but they never went back to the hotter cams etc etc. In stock form a T140 is a very sweet thing but lots of home tuners new better and added all sorts of crap in an effort to ruin the engines faster. God knows what horrors lurk in yours so be very very careful.

Another thing to watch is the head. Apart from the usual issues with valve guides, they had push in headers which work loose and leak (hi temp silicon) on assembly. The exhaust ports can get ovalised making sealing troublesome particularly in customs where the builder has not added a stabilizing mount on the header and removed the balance pipe for 'looks'...

If it has sat for any length of time you MUST split the cases and empty the sludge trap in the crankshaft. If you dont you are wasting your time. Basically its a cavity design left over from the era of old fashioned oils and no oil filters. Particles in the oil are flung out of suspension and sit in this 'trap'. It should be cleaned out each time the crank is removed. The trouble happens when the engine sits for long periods and the crud dries out and breaks up. Newer oils have higher detergent levels (keeps particles in suspension to be removed by the oil filter) and they pick up these big chunks of crap and carry them into the oil galleries/big ends etc and its all over red rover...

You really need a full strip and clean.

Also consider a MORGO oil pump (higher flow rate = happy plain bearing big ends) and an aftermarket oil filter kit. Electronic ignition is a good idea too. It should have a 3 phase alternator but higher capacity ones are available now if you want electric do dads...

Let me know if you need more info.

Road kill
14th December 2012, 07:22
Paul my T140V was an American import and it was a 4 speed,,,I was told it was a limited model called a Bonniville/Commodore in the states.

It was a 73 and it was a left hand gear change.

The information came from "Brittish Spares" in wellington when I bought the 5 speed cluster from them.

No idea if that's true or not "but it's what I was told.

Paul in NZ
14th December 2012, 07:50
Paul my T140V was an American import and it was a 4 speed,,,I was told it was a limited model called a Bonniville/Commodore in the states.

It was a 73 and it was a left hand gear change.

The information came from "Brittish Spares" in wellington when I bought the 5 speed cluster from them.

No idea if that's true or not "but it's what I was told.

I have never heard of that and never seen it in my reference books (sorry train spotter hat) or seen one on the road BUT thats not to say they don't exist. Its odd though because the stamping 'V' means 5 speed...

This has jogged my memory though and left shift was from Aug 1975 (made for sale in 76) so its hard to imagine an earlier one given the amount of special parts required...

And I was wrong about 728cc. The (nominally) 750cc engine was near identical to the 650cc power unit. But the first T140s were (for production reasons) actually 724cc. Within months however, this became 744cc—which remained the cubic capacity of the Bonnies and Tigers until the bitter end.

There are several possibilities. It could be a fleet purchase bike (police, armed forces etc) and 4 speeds were specified, a demo bike for above, built while they were figuring out what was wrong with the 5 speeds or it was assembled around when the workers sit in happened out of whatever was laying about. NVT were desperate for bikes to sell and some bikes also escaped during the sit in and before the co-op got going so who really knows. It wouldn't be the only odd ball.

I've always wanted a TR7T

Anyway - versions I know of are...


Triumph T140 & Triumph TR7 models and variants

T140V Bonneville 750cc

T140E Bonneville 750cc
TR7 Tiger 750cc
T140J Jubilee Bonneville 750cc
T140D Bonneville Special 750cc
T140E Bonneville Electro 750cc
T140ES Bonneville (Electric Start ) 750cc
TR65 Thunderbird 650cc
T140ES Bonneville Executive 750cc
TR7 Tiger Trail 750cc
TR65T Tiger Trail 650cc
T140AV Bonneville (Anti Vibration)

(Police model) 750cc (oft with a SAINT badge)
T140W TSS 750cc
T140LE Royal Wedding Bonneville 750cc
TSX 750cc
Harris Bonneville 750cc

Terror
14th December 2012, 08:38
Paul pretty much said it all "I only picked it as a 650 frame because it's not an oil in frame and I don't believe the 750's came in the earlier non oil in frame tanks.

Your right in that your T140V engine could be either 4 or 5 speed "but a T140V should be left hand change no matter how many gears it is.

I've had a 1973 T140V that was a four speed that I converted to 5 speed soon after I bought it.

If it is a 4 speed and you want to go 5,,you will need the 5 speed right hand "inner" gear box cover to go along with the 5 speed cluster.

Other than that it's a straight swop.

Today I was looking through the HD XL Forums and there's an early Triumph framed bike in there with an XLH Iron head engine in it "so I guess it can be done if you'd really like a V twin engine,,,,and a challenge.

I've now pretty much decided to stay with the Tiumph engine, it's probably going to require more work but I do actually like the unknowns, challenges and the way it sits in the frame!. There also seems to be quite a lot of parts availiable on Ebay for this model.

I tried to free the nuts on the head last night but they are quite firmly on, I will need to get some CRC before I go any further. once I can get the head and other bits and bobs off and inpect the inside I should have a much better indication of how to proceed.

Road kill
14th December 2012, 08:49
Hmmm,the guy from BSpares also said what they called the Commodore was used in presidentual parades an such "so I guess that would mean police or military.

To tell the truth I never really gave it much though outside the fact I'd really wanted a 73 5 speed and I only bought the bike because I'd crashed it during a test ride and felt obligated to buy it after that.

The reason I cashed it was the selector Pawl spring was very weak and as I'd come up on a corner I changed down an the thing dropped straight through 3th and into 2nd gear "then when I tried to kick it back up it went into a false neutral and I then drifted wide into the gravel an decked it at low speed.

The fix was simply to remove the plunger that goes up through the bottem of the box "give the spring a stretch and then put it back in.

Over the next six months I replaced the gear box,all wheel bearing,stearing head bearings,the whole clutch and primary assembly,chains sprockets,all rubbers,both mufflers,the carbs,and a lot of other little bits an pieces so that I ended up with the stock 1973 5 speed Bonnie that I'd wanted in the first place.

People say some of us look back with rose tinted glasses when it comes to British bikes "but during the 4 years I owned that bike it was always very reliable for me.

The reason I sold it is another story "but it involved an SD900 Ducati that was part of a mates divorce settlement and was to good to turn down:facepalm:

Terror
14th December 2012, 08:53
If its a T140 then it should be a 5 speed. ALL T140's are 5 speeds. They were all right hand change until 76 or so when then moved it to the left. Thats when the rear disk arrived. ANY T140 with a 4 speed transmission has had it robbed for something else. (5 speeders are always in demand and 4 speeders are common and cheap)

However this is one of the earliest T140's I've ever heard of as they were officially introduced in '73 (obviously made in 72 though). Because its a very very early T140 it might be one of the weird harold 728cc ones and it might have the troublesome 1st generation 5 speed as fitted to some of the 650's. The gearbox is not an issue as there are several fixes known and Triumph issued an upgrade and service bulletin about it. HOWEVER not all the gears/shafts are 100% compatible with the later ones. The odd engine bore size can cause issues purchasing parts but British spares should be aware of it if any of the good triumph guys are still there.

These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA....

The T140's were toned down a bit due to issues with the main bearings. That was solved with better bearings but they never went back to the hotter cams etc etc. In stock form a T140 is a very sweet thing but lots of home tuners new better and added all sorts of crap in an effort to ruin the engines faster. God knows what horrors lurk in yours so be very very careful.

Another thing to watch is the head. Apart from the usual issues with valve guides, they had push in headers which work loose and leak (hi temp silicon) on assembly. The exhaust ports can get ovalised making sealing troublesome particularly in customs where the builder has not added a stabilizing mount on the header and removed the balance pipe for 'looks'...

If it has sat for any length of time you MUST split the cases and empty the sludge trap in the crankshaft. If you dont you are wasting your time. Basically its a cavity design left over from the era of old fashioned oils and no oil filters. Particles in the oil are flung out of suspension and sit in this 'trap'. It should be cleaned out each time the crank is removed. The trouble happens when the engine sits for long periods and the crud dries out and breaks up. Newer oils have higher detergent levels (keeps particles in suspension to be removed by the oil filter) and they pick up these big chunks of crap and carry them into the oil galleries/big ends etc and its all over red rover...

You really need a full strip and clean.

Also consider a MORGO oil pump (higher flow rate = happy plain bearing big ends) and an aftermarket oil filter kit. Electronic ignition is a good idea too. It should have a 3 phase alternator but higher capacity ones are available now if you want electric do dads...

Let me know if you need more info.

Hi Paul,

Yeah the gear change is on the right hand side. I haven't attempted to shift through the gears, but I assume they will be all gummed up. I like that comment - "These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA...." It's deinifitely a FULL rebuild job. The bloke I brought it off said it had been sitting for about 6 years with him, and at least the same with the owner before. Dreamers I guess. There's probably quite a few exterior parts (cases etc) I will replace as the condition is so poor and I can't be bothered trying to clean them up. I suspect this has had an electronic ignition previously, as some old coils and bits came with it.. Hardly a wiring loom as the guy suggested on TM, but that's okay!

I'm going to pop into Dick Smith on saturday and buy a new camera so I can take some photos for you all to see. Also, I like to have a camera on deck when rebuilding engines, just so I can take snaps of the pull down process the full way through as my memory is a little hazey some times..

Cheers!

Terror
14th December 2012, 09:01
Double Post :dodge:

Paul in NZ
14th December 2012, 09:12
Hmmm,the guy from BSpares also said what they called the Commodore was used in presidentual parades an such "so I guess that would mean police or military.

To tell the truth I never really gave it much though outside the fact I'd really wanted a 73 5 speed and I only bought the bike because I'd crashed it during a test ride and felt obligated to buy it after that.

The reason I cashed it was the selector Pawl spring was very weak and as I'd come up on a corner I changed down an the thing dropped straight through 3th and into 2nd gear "then when I tried to kick it back up it went into a false neutral and I then drifted wide into the gravel an decked it at low speed.

The fix was simply to remove the plunger that goes up through the bottem of the box "give the spring a stretch and then put it back in.

Over the next six months I replaced the gear box,all wheel bearing,stearing head bearings,the whole clutch and primary assembly,chains sprockets,all rubbers,both mufflers,the carbs,and a lot of other little bits an pieces so that I ended up with the stock 1973 5 speed Bonnie that I'd wanted in the first place.

People say some of us look back with rose tinted glasses when it comes to British bikes "but during the 4 years I owned that bike it was always very reliable for me.

The reason I sold it is another story "but it involved an SD900 Ducati that was part of a mates divorce settlement and was to good to turn down:facepalm:

Well that makes sense - although I suspect an American president would be awfully sour on a Triumph being used on escort duty in the USA and by then the poms had gone to BMW's I think. Shame you don't still have it as stock it would be a genuine rarity...

Yes - the odd thing is that generally, once put together properly and used sensibly these are very good bikes... Our TR6C has well over a 100,000 miles by us on it with us. 2 major rebuilds, one not long after purchase and one about 12,000 miles ago... A T140 should be better than that again...

As for an offer on an SD900 being too good to turn down - how much money did he give you to take it away? (just kidding - they can be a good bike but it has to be said it wasnt Ducatis finest hour)

Terror
14th December 2012, 14:13
Onto the next question, do any of you wise folks have any idea what the frame is? There are some numbers embossed down by the kick start but they didn't show anything up on the internet. I haven't seen any other numbers, they may have been welded over when the handlebar chop was done.

It looks quite a bit like the 1966 Bonniville (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-539072325.htm) currently on Trademe????

Paul in NZ
14th December 2012, 14:32
Thats likely a casting number. Frame number is on a raised boss top left of the steering head. Might have lost it when it was raked. Usually matches the engine number but in your case it wont.

Terror
14th December 2012, 14:43
Thats likely a casting number. Frame number is on a raised boss top left of the steering head. Might have lost it when it was raked. Usually matches the engine number but in your case it wont.

Hmmm, that might not be a good thing. I suppose I can't register if I can't find it?

Road kill
14th December 2012, 16:34
If you can find the numbers on the stearing head "this link might help you work it out.
http://www.britishspares.com/41.php

BIG DOUG
14th December 2012, 20:47
Do not paint or powder anything until it is completely together this includes wiring etc because there is bound to be something that has to be welded or modified and depending on what tank you are using I would rubber mount it as twins tend to vibe and as for powder not being as black as two pak I would rather powder,the reason I say this is I have friends who are car painters and tight bastards paint there frames and it chips just putting it together.oh yea hers one I just finished still sorting out some minor things

The Lone Rider
14th December 2012, 20:51
Do not paint or powder anything until it is completely together this includes wiring etc because there is bound to be something that has to be welded or modified and depending on what tank you are using I would rubber mount it as twins tend to vibe and as for powder not being as black as two pak I would rather powder,the reason I say this is I have friends who are car painters and tight bastards paint there frames and it chips just putting it together.oh yea hers one I just finished still sorting out some minor things

Bang me an email and I'll get that put in the next issue.



Look up Chris Knibbs if you need advice on certifying a custom bike. But will probably cost you, to discuss it.

scumdog
14th December 2012, 21:07
Bang me an email and I'll get that put in the next issue.



Look up Chris Knibbs if you need advice on certifying a custom bike. But will probably cost you, to discuss it.

Nice to see you'll consider a Harley bobber, good one!

Terror
15th December 2012, 23:39
Alright guys, as promised I've taken some photos for everyone to check out. I managed to get the side cases open this evening and suprisingly everything looks visually quite good internally.

I've been having quite a bit of trouble trying to crack the nuts to inspect the head, they are quite rusted, and firmly on there - also it a b1tch of a location for trying to get any tools in there, really seem to be limited to spanners on these nuts, and I can't even get the ring spanner end over the top.. I'm going to keep pouring the CRC on, hopefully they will free up a little with enough of that on - anyone have any other suggestions, other than an angle grinder :laugh:

Whats with the metrics on these machines... I grabbed my 10 & 12mm spanners first off, but they largely seem to be 13mm, go figure?

Here's where the frame has been cut and welded for the raked front end:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8274765892/" title="Triumph Front Frame Modification by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8494/8274765892_83603d682d.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Front Frame Modification"></a>


Here's the top side of the hard tail, where it joins to the main frame:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273700493/" title="Triumph Hard Tail by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8217/8273700493_5239bb1009.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Hard Tail"></a>

Here's the under side of the hard tail connection, note the same sized pipes:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8274765430/" title="Triumph Hard Tail by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8359/8274765430_54c4de09dc.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Hard Tail"></a>

Here's the case partially split , everything looks quite clean internally:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273699799/" title="Triumph Case by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8069/8273699799_3a1dcdb633.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Case"></a>

Here's the case again, obvoiusly the exterior is in very poor / weathered condition:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273699189/" title="Triumph Case 2 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8273699189_2febf83dc6.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Case 2"></a>

Here's the head, and partial shot of the twin carb:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273698999/" title="Triumph Head by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8084/8273698999_58e02ba6a4.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Head"></a>

Here's the otherside of the engine with case removed, internally she looks pretty clean, although a bucket load of thick old oil hit the deck then I pulled the case off:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273698551/" title="Triumph Case 3 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8273698551_63047da5d1.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Triumph Case 3"></a>

Here's the outside of the case, looking pretty sad indeed. I'm not sure if t's worth trying to re-chrome or just replace it. Needs work anyway:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273698369/" title="Triumph Case 4 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8497/8273698369_eefa5ef360.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Triumph Case 4"></a>

Here's another shot of the hard tail rear frame join to the main frame:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273697891/" title="Triumph Hard Tail by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8273697891_644a0df8e4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Triumph Hard Tail"></a>

Hope everyone is having a good weekend!!!

Subike
16th December 2012, 00:09
""Whats with the metrics on these machines... I grabbed my 10 & 12mm spanners first off, but they largely seem to be 13mm, go figure""

Its British, you need SAE or Witworth spanner sets, sockets set, Lb sq in torque wrenches, allen wrenches, measuring tools need to be in inches, not millimeters.. Dont use metric spanners on a brit motor,ever!

Brian d marge
16th December 2012, 00:15
thats a pretty straight forward build me thinks , ONE small concern

TECHNICALLY ....as in it may sneak past and not cause a concern , but the head stock gusset in in the middle of the tube and is continuously welded

which sets it up for a incorrectly designed load bearing area. should be on the side of the tube and stitch welded

On saying that

FOR ME , Im not a fan of the huge stretches, so I would consider changing that area ( a second hand triumph frame keeping your hard tail and shorten the springers , ( being careful of course to keep a sensible rake and trail )

Stephen

Road kill
16th December 2012, 08:33
What Subike said about the bolt sizes,,their Brittish not metric.
Get your self a socket set and a couple of long reach ring spanners in the correct sizes.

The stearing head is not standard Triumph "looks like a hog Farm unit to me "Orb from the hog farm is still alive and well in Bombay somewhere,,,Google is your friend.

So far you've removed a couple of covers "primary/clutch on the left and cam/oil pump on the right.
Don't touch anything else until you have a Haynes workshop manual and a couple of specialist tools that you will read about in the manual.

Stop posting reversed photo's it really mess's with my head.

Paul will be along soon to comment on that clutch.

Terror
19th December 2012, 09:44
What Subike said about the bolt sizes,,their Brittish not metric.
Get your self a socket set and a couple of long reach ring spanners in the correct sizes.

The stearing head is not standard Triumph "looks like a hog Farm unit to me "Orb from the hog farm is still alive and well in Bombay somewhere,,,Google is your friend.

So far you've removed a couple of covers "primary/clutch on the left and cam/oil pump on the right.
Don't touch anything else until you have a Haynes workshop manual and a couple of specialist tools that you will read about in the manual.

Stop posting reversed photo's it really mess's with my head.

Paul will be along soon to comment on that clutch.

Sorry about the photos, had to use the webcam on my laptop and it was a major pain the the ass.

I looking into the workshop manuals today, and seeing if I can find some decent engine schematics. Does anyone know if I might find the Wes White DVD here in NZ? I've found it on the lowbros website but the shipping is the same cost as the DVD! So it's about $60 US all in, which is quite a bit for a DVD!!!

imdying
19th December 2012, 12:34
Wurth Rost Off does a better job of freeing rusted fasteners than CRC. Just keep dosing it daily, it'll wick in.

Paul in NZ
19th December 2012, 12:54
Erm - looking at the general crustiness of everything.... good luck... ;-)

The covers were only plated on one special edition and best just to clean those puppies off. You WILL need the special tools for removing the pinion nuts etc without damage.

Terror
3rd January 2013, 14:27
UPDATE:

Didn't get as much done as I would have liked over the break but did spend a few hours working on the engine.

I've put everything back together at the moment, as I am still unable to crack the nuts around the head. I've been pouring CRC over the nuts and they *should* free up once I get the appropriate tools to attempt again.

I concentrated on cleaning up the 'general crustiness' over the break, im about 50% of the way there, so I've sanded back half of the engine with 240 grit and gone back over that with 1200 grit and Autosoled / polished her up. It looks great!!!! - almost mirror shine (and yes I realise she will get dirty again once I start pulling it down). The areas which had old crome left on were quite easy to peel off and the alloy under there looks factory, so I guess it was factory plated maybe.

I decided that this was a good project for the break becuase, seeing a nice shiney engine as apposed to a crust bucket will give me more motivation, i've become a lot more acquanted with parts which will need to be replaced (cracked fins on rocket boxes etc), and also just because it would need to be done at some point anwyay... I will try and get some images of the half polished engine up in the next couple of days.

scumdog
3rd January 2013, 15:31
If you have nut 'frozen' on a stud try heating it and then put a candle on it in the right place for the wax to wick its way down the thread, while things are still hot give it a crack...:niceone:

FJRider
3rd January 2013, 16:02
If you have nut 'frozen' on a stud try heating it and then put a candle on it in the right place for the wax to wick its way down the thread, while things are still hot give it a crack...:niceone:

Try to heat the nut ... rather than the nut AND stud. The theory is ... heat expands and the thread "hole" of the nut gets bigger/ loose on the stud. Heat also can displace/dissolve the rust/crud locking the nut to the stud.

Option 2. Remove the entire stud. (with nut still attached) and replace with new(er) items.

Terror
4th January 2013, 07:43
Try to heat the nut ... rather than the nut AND stud. The theory is ... heat expands and the thread "hole" of the nut gets bigger/ loose on the stud. Heat also can displace/dissolve the rust/crud locking the nut to the stud.

Option 2. Remove the entire stud. (with nut still attached) and replace with new(er) items.

Oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea, I think I have a little gas torch thing somewhere which I will give a go.

skippa1
4th January 2013, 08:28
Whats with the metrics on these machines... I grabbed my 10 & 12mm spanners first off, but they largely seem to be 13mm, go figure?

H!


""Whats with the metrics on these machines... I grabbed my 10 & 12mm spanners first off, but they largely seem to be 13mm, go figure""

Its British, you need SAE or Witworth spanner sets, sockets set, Lb sq in torque wrenches, allen wrenches, measuring tools need to be in inches, not millimeters.. Dont use metric spanners on a brit motor,ever!

Like subike says, shes imperial not metric. The 13mm fits well because 13mm and 1/2" AF are close enough to the same size, but all others will be imperial

The Lone Rider
25th January 2013, 15:04
Nice to see you'll consider a Harley bobber, good one!

You clearly have not once read the magazine or looked at the posters.

Terror
4th April 2013, 11:29
All right, sorry for disappearing guys, went through somewhat of a separation at the end of the year so everything pretty much went on hold. Attached you will find some photos of my recent efforts on the engine...

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8616925229/" title="CAM00052 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8616925229_d9c87038a0.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00052"></a>

Front Cover looking a damn sight better than it was, still chrome to peel and more polishing to be done

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8618031236/" title="CAM00075 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8389/8618031236_69d387fef9.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00075"></a>

Got bored with the front cover, so I started working on the timing cover

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8618031352/" title="CAM00074 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8618031352_dfb6f53fa3.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00074"></a>

Shine starting to come through on the timing cover


Now if we go back and look at these parts before:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273698369/" title="Triumph Case 4 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8497/8273698369_eefa5ef360.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Triumph Case 4"></a>

Front Cover

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8273699189/" title="Triumph Case 2 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8273699189_2febf83dc6.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="Triumph Case 2"></a>

Timing Cover


Trying to put at least a little time in each day, so the photos of progress should be quite frequent going forward, stay tuned!



I've also been buying a few other Triumphs in the recent months, I picked up a compete(ish) basketcase 1929 Triumph Model CN/CSD and a 1926 Model P rolling frame. These two bikes are going to be more long term restoration projects, if anyone has any parts for either please do sing out.

Cheers,

T

Terror
8th April 2013, 17:15
Al-righty, as promised, the work goes on.... although there isn't much to see from the photos, here's the fruits of my weekend work, as you can probably tell.. I am pretty unfocused in terms of where I deploy myself, but this work gets monotonous, sanding, polishing, sanding, resting, polishing, sanding and so on....

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8630796578/" title="CAM00087 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8630796578_d1ecb9c7b9.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00087"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8630796806/" title="CAM00080 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8543/8630796806_dcc0ed5478.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00080"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8630796756/" title="CAM00082 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8530/8630796756_116b766a4c.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00082"></a>

Started sanding back around the front engine mount, 600 grit seems to take forever on this coarse surface so might need to take it up a notch.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8630796664/" title="CAM00085 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8398/8630796664_61b2606a5b.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00085"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8629690937/" title="CAM00081 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8265/8629690937_22494f3ef7.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00081"></a>

I've taken back most of the remaining chrome from the timing cover, and started sanding the actual timing cover back a bit deeper, it's still not perfect, in fact out of all the covers this one will require the most work. I did find something online about using brake fluid to strip unwanted chrome back, and I can attest that it works VERY well, I was using a sharp blade to flake the chrome off before and that was taking forever, brake fluid rips it up in no time!! So I have started this process on the outer clutch cover..

Terror
30th April 2013, 22:29
Work goes on... Still having trouble concentrating on one area, but that's okay because at the end of the day it all needs to be done anyway, so here's what's been happening in the last few weeks (or however long it's been):

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8694625579/" title="CAM00124 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8121/8694625579_06d9542588.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00124"></a>

Rocker covers have had a light going over (took bloody hours due to the shape of them), funny story on the inspection cap - I had a hair brained scheme to chuck it in with some sodium hydroxide I had laying around, I figured more would be better.. well that was one heck of a reaction, which resulted in the inspection cover getting lightly pitted (you can probably see in the photo), so that probably turned the job into twice the amount of sanding requried, and as you can see there's still more to go. I think lye is definitely the way to go, in moderation lol.

That inspection cover has broken fins anyway, so no major loss, I am probably going to buy some new ones from Ebay. I was thinking about shaving all the fins off these ones I have and polishing them out, might do that later.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8695749802/" title="CAM00115 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8542/8695749802_0103fbb980.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="CAM00115"></a>

Here's a side shot of the inspection cover prior to my little mistake.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/8695747312/" title="CAM00122 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8402/8695747312_acac8693be.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00122"></a>

I also managed (finally) to crack a couple of the head nuts off, well I actually destoyed them in the process, but they were buggered anyway, so onto Ebay for a replacement set, once I get the remaining 6 off.. Incidentally, while looking at this photo, can anyone tell me why the head/barrel section is painted black? Obviously this one is painted in rust, but I was thinking of sanding/polishing it back, is there any reason why it seems nobody does this??

That's all for tonight, well I have lot's more photos of the same, but nothing interesting.

Cheers!

Paul in NZ
1st May 2013, 07:30
Gawd - looks like that engine has spent some time under the ocean... Its pretty gnarly - god knows what the insides look like. I'm afraid its going to be a crank out jobbie before it runs again as I would even kick something like that over unless I'd been inside the sludge trap to clean it out and blown through all the oil galleries... Sadly there are a few special tools you will need soon and it might pay to get a Triumph specialist involved.

The barrels are painted black because they are iron. Only the T100's of the 50's and a very few special T140's had alloy ones. Traditionally they have always painted them gloss black.... Rest of the engine is alloy so polish away but I'd just haul it all to bits and get them cleaned first.

I STRONGLY suggest you purchase a manual and a DVD like this...

http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/p126/buy/dvds-mags/dvds/lowbrow-customs-triumph-650-rebuild-dvd-with-wes-white-triumph-motorcycle-dvd/

Or this

http://www.hughiehancoxrestorations.co.uk/page13.html

Terror
1st May 2013, 13:46
Gawd - looks like that engine has spent some time under the ocean... Its pretty gnarly - god knows what the insides look like. I'm afraid its going to be a crank out jobbie before it runs again as I would even kick something like that over unless I'd been inside the sludge trap to clean it out and blown through all the oil galleries... Sadly there are a few special tools you will need soon and it might pay to get a Triumph specialist involved.

The barrels are painted black because they are iron. Only the T100's of the 50's and a very few special T140's had alloy ones. Traditionally they have always painted them gloss black.... Rest of the engine is alloy so polish away but I'd just haul it all to bits and get them cleaned first.

I STRONGLY suggest you purchase a manual and a DVD like this...

http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/p126/buy/dvds-mags/dvds/lowbrow-customs-triumph-650-rebuild-dvd-with-wes-white-triumph-motorcycle-dvd/

Or this

http://www.hughiehancoxrestorations.co.uk/page13.html

Hi Paul,

I was wondering when you were going to chime in! Yeah the guy I got it from lived right on a beach, so close enough to being in the drink, I don't know where he had it sitting, but it had been there a very long time.

I am definitely planning on a full rebuild, crank out if that's what it takes. The engine is siezed at the moment anyway, so there's no kicking over. I assume these 'special tools' are availibale on ebay, I have seen TDC and crank pullers on there.. I haven't bothered buying up yet, not till I can get the head off anyway.

I'm pretty sure the barells on mine are alloy, I sanded a little back and it looked like alloy but I guess it could be iron.

As for the DVD's, I'm actually waiting for the Wes White one to arrive at the moment - I foolishly ordered it from Amazon because it was cheaper but ity's sent via USPS so it's probably going to take a while to arrive (it's been 2 weeks so far). Thanks for the info on the other DVD, I will buy that one too.

In the meantime, it's more of the same, polishing and trying to get the head off.

Road kill
1st May 2013, 16:37
Personally I'd get everything bead blasted rather than all that polishing stuff.
I mean your going to be tearing it all down anyway so why not.
Then use a drill held polishing mop on the bits you want shiny.
I made mine from a threaded shaft and some carpet discs I cut up,just add polishing soap an life is good.

Paul in NZ
2nd May 2013, 08:37
The only Triumph T140 that I know came ex factory with chromes outer cases was the Silver Jubilee (1977???) and it definately had a black painted iron block.

The US version of the T140LE (Royal Wedding) initially had a silver painted iron block but only polished alloy outer cases. (1981??) But frankly by then they were making them out of whatever they had to hand so goodness only knows.

The alloy blocks I've seen were Italian ones made by Gilardoni (sp?) and had nikisil liners (these guys make Moto Guzzi and I think Ducati cylinders as well as others and have been making them for years.) Gilardoni have a habit of re making a batch or two of old stuff once there is enough demand so its possible it is alloy but given the state of it gawd knows what the lining is like...

Frankly I'd take the whole thing to an engine recon guy and get them to soak it in their tank for a day or so the get rid of the crud.

Terror
3rd May 2013, 17:10
Personally I'd get everything bead blasted rather than all that polishing stuff.
I mean your going to be tearing it all down anyway so why not.
Then use a drill held polishing mop on the bits you want shiny.
I made mine from a threaded shaft and some carpet discs I cut up,just add polishing soap an life is good.

I hear what your saying here, but (correct me if I am wrong) bead blasting won't flatten out the surfaces on the cases right? I'm trying to get the whole engine smooth and to a mirror type shine in the end.


The only Triumph T140 that I know came ex factory with chromes outer cases was the Silver Jubilee (1977???) and it definately had a black painted iron block.

The US version of the T140LE (Royal Wedding) initially had a silver painted iron block but only polished alloy outer cases. (1981??) But frankly by then they were making them out of whatever they had to hand so goodness only knows.

The alloy blocks I've seen were Italian ones made by Gilardoni (sp?) and had nikisil liners (these guys make Moto Guzzi and I think Ducati cylinders as well as others and have been making them for years.) Gilardoni have a habit of re making a batch or two of old stuff once there is enough demand so its possible it is alloy but given the state of it gawd knows what the lining is like...

Frankly I'd take the whole thing to an engine recon guy and get them to soak it in their tank for a day or so the get rid of the crud.

You certianly seem to know your stuff Paul!

When you say take the whole engine to get the crud soaked off, you mean in one piece, or pull it all to bits first?

I'm actually quite enjoying the monotony of sanding / polishing it back, every day it's a small step towards a bit of a vision I have for the bike. I'm 25 so I have all the time in the world to potter around with it too, sometimes benefits of the journey getting there exceed the final destination. It also allows me a little free time away from the kids, which is nice :shifty:

Kickaha
4th May 2013, 09:20
The alloy blocks I've seen were Italian ones made by Gilardoni (sp?) and had nikisil liners
They were factory fitment on the Harris Bonneville, mapcycle do (or used to) a nice billet alloy cylinder

Paul in NZ
4th May 2013, 12:26
They were factory fitment on the Harris Bonneville, mapcycle do (or used to) a nice billet alloy cylinder

Yes - that stikes a chord as the harris Bonnies had a lot of Italian bits....

Paul in NZ
4th May 2013, 12:29
When you say take the whole engine to get the crud soaked off, you mean in one piece, or pull it all to bits first?


Talk to an engine reconditioner if you have one locally. The can soak it in a tank that will disolve a lot of the carbon etc. Might make it easier to dis assemble? Or maybe soak it in diesel and steam clean?

Terror
6th May 2013, 14:10
Talk to an engine reconditioner if you have one locally. The can soak it in a tank that will disolve a lot of the carbon etc. Might make it easier to dis assemble? Or maybe soak it in diesel and steam clean?

Cheers for that, will investigate.

On another note..

Can anyone tell me anything about the legality (or potential certification issues I might have) with a jack shaft on a hard tail..? basically looking to move to a 200 rear on my triumph saint frame (not the green one pictured in this thread...yep multiple projects on the go..) If it's legal for a jack shaft I will look at fabricating one, otherwise I'm just going to buy a bolt on tail for the other frame.

There's some images of a jack shaft on a trumpy hard tail here:

http://www.chopperweb.info/forum/printthread.php?threadid=4852&perpage=21

http://texasbikeworks.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/triumph-project.html

And details on sprockets here:

http://www.ebay.com/gds/jackshaft-calculator/10000000005700013/g.html

Terror
24th September 2013, 09:59
Okay, been far too long since I updated this... too much buying bike parts and not enough work being done.

I'm...down...to 3 projects now:

1. Triumph T140V, dual springer front end, hardtail as pictured.
2. Triumph T150V, spitfire girder or Smith Bros and Fetrow, ass end still to come.
3. Triumph CN 1929, resto project, on the hunt for parts.

Probably quite obvious my focus tends to shift quite a bit, somewhat ADHD I guess. Anyhows, I will chuck some more pics up of where I am at soon.

Cheers,
T.

Hareaway
24th September 2013, 21:32
Okay, been far too long since I updated this... too much buying bike parts and not enough work being done.

I'm...down...to 3 projects now:

1. Triumph T140V, dual springer front end, hardtail as pictured.
2. Triumph T150V, spitfire girder or Smith Bros and Fetrow, ass end still to come.
3. Triumph CN 1929, resto project, on the hunt for parts.

Probably quite obvious my focus tends to shift quite a bit, somewhat ADHD I guess. Anyhows, I will chuck some more pics up of where I am at soon.

Cheers,
T.


Hi hope this works .. long time lurker ..sorry :Oops: Anyway i take it you got your wes white rebuild dvd ? I got mine on itunes for my kids ipad . Great idea means you can take it over to the shed and a quick download .
I have 2 triumph 500 motors now , i have a bitsa (350 crankcase, 500 barrels 4 spring clutch etc in a hard tail frame )

And a original T100 r daytona .

Heres some links that may help

This is a link with online parts books for Triumphs and Nortons

http://www.bigdcycle.com/books.html

Lowbrow customs rock, honestly 8 days to the middle of nowhere RD at the bottom of the south island from ohio

http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/c105/buy/triumph-specific/

British spares in Nelson are bloody great

http://www.britishspares.com/

Triumph front end stuff here

http://raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc18.html

Otherwise search Jockeyjournal

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/


Or Triumph Rat (for motor stuff )

http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/


Anyway you probably know most of this stuff by now but someone else may benefit ..

Good luck

Terror
25th September 2013, 09:38
Hi there, thanks for the reply. Yeah I have the Wes White DVD, it's very good. Not sure how applicable it will be when I get to building the T150 although from what I have seen they are quite similar.

Your projects sound interesting.. Shame your not in the North Island - i'm having a lot of difficulty finding people with the same mutual interest to bounce ideas off.

Yeah I have seen most of those sites, but thanks for taking the time to post them up - I hadn't seen the online parts books.

I'm probably going to end up fabricating a hardtail for my T150, as i'd quite like to experiment with the jack shaft design and a slightly wider rear, perhaps 200-220 nothing too crazy.

After getting started on my T140 project I've realised just how much work can be involved in resurrecting a maltreated bike.. It seems like I always need some other tool, or device to get the job done (efficiently) .

I was meaning to get some new photos up yesterday but ended up having a nap, so will do that shortly....


Hi hope this works .. long time lurker ..sorry :Oops: Anyway i take it you got your wes white rebuild dvd ? I got mine on itunes for my kids ipad . Great idea means you can take it over to the shed and a quick download .
I have 2 triumph 500 motors now , i have a bitsa (350 crankcase, 500 barrels 4 spring clutch etc in a hard tail frame )

And a original T100 r daytona .

Heres some links that may help

This is a link with online parts books for Triumphs and Nortons

http://www.bigdcycle.com/books.html

Lowbrow customs rock, honestly 8 days to the middle of nowhere RD at the bottom of the south island from ohio

http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/c105/buy/triumph-specific/

British spares in Nelson are bloody great

http://www.britishspares.com/

Triumph front end stuff here

http://raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc18.html

Otherwise search Jockeyjournal

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/


Or Triumph Rat (for motor stuff )

http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/


Anyway you probably know most of this stuff by now but someone else may benefit ..

Good luck

Terror
25th September 2013, 10:05
Okay so the T140 project:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923231474/" title="CAM00189 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/9923231474_2aaebd0138.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00189"></a>

Got the rockers off, there's not too much crap around the valves so that's good!

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923334613/" title="CAM00175 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/9923334613_73a1a0f73d.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00175"></a>

Been polishing the cylinder head

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923215454/" title="CAM00195 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/9923215454_8212d9deaf.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="CAM00195"></a>

When I took the cylinder head off and exposed the pistons one looks a little worse for wear, my guess is it needs a rebore as some oil has come over and cooked by the looks of it.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923195494/" title="CAM00230 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3750/9923195494_1155646b99.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00230"></a>

Bare metaled the tank (this shot it half way through)

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923122555/" title="CAM00236 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/9923122555_28d34aa2b2.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00236"></a>

Etch primed and surfaced primed the tank

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923119255/" title="CAM00274 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7431/9923119255_4993d24f81.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00274"></a>

Photo with the tank sitting on the bike, excuse the mess in the background lol

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923423795/" title="CAM00326 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5342/9923423795_6dbfa4979b.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00326"></a>

The frame as it sits today - im busy striping the paint back for prime.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923459246/" title="CAM00324 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/9923459246_8ecc290da7.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00324"></a>

Stripping the rear wheel back for polish, looks like the PO painted it with some silver paint for Trademe appeal..

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923610023/" title="CAM00323 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/9923610023_9ba89ce1b7.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="CAM00323"></a>

Springer getting a makeover, ive ground it back and am mig welding some minor pitting, then off to the chrome plater.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923510734/" title="CAM00322 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/9923510734_8905ddf189.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00322"></a>

Stripping back the oil tank and polishing it up

Terror
25th September 2013, 10:23
The T150 project:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923551006/" title="284717037 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/9923551006_6aa95b9680.jpg" width="320" height="240" alt="284717037"></a>

Engine to be collected

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923523805/" title="284931583 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/9923523805_e59c795719.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="284931583"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923693963/" title="284931596 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/9923693963_cc52681163.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="284931596"></a>

Front end to be collected


<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923501214/" title="CAM00325 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/9923501214_7d26e29ee8.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00325"></a>

Spare frame I have had sitting for a while, will need some 'chopping' round the neck :)

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/9923658615/" title="CAM00327 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5467/9923658615_ced53ffda4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="CAM00327"></a>

Front wheel, will have to sort the tyre obviously.

BIG DOUG
25th September 2013, 18:24
go to www.greasemonkeys.co.nz a few guys on there with trumpys,I have built a few triples and they are not the same as a twin good luck and keep us posted.

AllanB
25th September 2013, 22:29
May just be the picture but that rear wheel looks to have a dent in it at the bottom of the image.

Terror
9th November 2013, 22:15
Been a while once again.. seem like I only come on here when I have had one too many!!

The T150 plan when to the pack somewhat. The guy who sold me the springer decided he wanted to keep it, and my frame in the photos didnt suit. So....

I ended up buying a 650 engine (sort of), and am busy stripping back the frame that was in the photos. Clearly I didnt know dick and a T150 wasn't gonna fit in a T120 frame! So anyway, brought a T160 frame, that the T150 engine is sitting in now.. Hmmmm, tooooooo many projects! Im planning on ripping into the T120 and turning it over to raise funds for my other bikes, the T150 and T140. So some more photos :

The T150:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/10755858646/" title="T150 by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/10755858646_9cac2c889a.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="T150"></a>

Etch primed T120 frame, the prime seal will go down tonight:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/10755774325/" title="t120 frame by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/10755774325_f2deea92e4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="t120 frame"></a>

Part of the new T120, I have a polished head and high conp pistons sitting round too.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/10756071043/" title="T120 Engine by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/10756071043_8fa28ea4f3.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="T120 Engine"></a>

Terror
9th November 2013, 22:43
First surface prime done, much detail sanding to go:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91120281@N06/10756149544/" title="t120 prime by Terror-D, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/10756149544_5cfba91e92.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="t120 prime"></a>