The rules are the rules

[Kiwi Graham]

So I will try my very best to.....

a) stick to them as a racer.
b) enforce them as a club.

To pick up a few points being made in other threads;

I sit in both camps; I still get the chance to get out on a race bike and more recently find myself in the position of an official.

Hampton Downs

It is hard to 'physically' see the start of the yellow pit entry line at 200+k's but I 'know' where it is, I also know the advantage I would gain by trying to go up the inside (over the yellow line) in the braking zone for turn 1. I also know it is against rule 16 of the entry form.

What are we (AMCC) going to do about it?
We will have a 'spotter' (yep, yet another hard to find volunteer) who's job it will be to monitor transgressions into this area and report to CoC that will result in a black flag for offenders exluding them from the race. Its in the rules, item 16 on AMCC entry forms. I sign to say I understand those rules and agree to them so I wont be supprised if I infringe them and am exluded from the race (black flagged).

The same level of compliance of the rules is expected of me and I sign to say I agree, on all other aspects relating to me racing my bike, be that the compliance of machine, behaviour of pit crew, race etiquette, flag adehrence...the list is a long one and the book a thick one.

What are we (AMCC) going to do about it?
Simply put, all we can do is enforce it, we would be in breech of the rules ourselves if we didn't.
Point marshals are better trained now, each point now has a senior marshal who has been round long enough to recognise what he/she see's and reports what has been seen to the CoC & Steward, they have the rule book in front of them and have no choice but to be guided by that rule and follow the course of action it dictates.

Yes of course some things go un-noticed but you still have options, speak to the steward or riders rep to seek clarification or guidance.

As an official I am not expected to be able to quote every rule vebatim out of the book, I am expected to be conversant with the rules that relate to the meeting I am running and know were in the rule book to find them for clarification (often in a time limiting mannor). I am also expected to ensure those rules are followed.

As a racer I'm also not expected to be able to quote every rule in the book but I expected to make sure the rules that relate to me, my bike, its class and the meeting I do know and as importantly I expect those running the meeting to be enforcing those rules so that all is fair for me.

Race meetings take a lot of personel to put on and a lot of organising to achieve, as much preperation is devoted to this 'pre' the meeting as racers give to their bikes pre meeting and belive it or not a de-brief 'post' the meeting to see what can be done better or different.

So;

As a racer, I'll turn up to the meeting with my bike prepared, conversant with the rules that apply to me, my team, my bike and its class. If I infinge any rule I expect to be pinged for it. The aim of my day is to have a great time enjoying racing my bike with like minded people.

As an organiser, I'll turn up to the meeting prepared for the day ahead, to ensure the rules are being followed to make it fair for everyone regardless of what class they are in. If any rule is infringed I'll simply be guided by what it says in the rule book and after taking into consideration what is said make a call. The aim of my day will be to enjoy watching and being part of you race your bike with like minded people.

Good luck to those going to Manfield for round 2, see the rest of you at HD :)

[FROSTY]

What bought this on KG?

[Kiwi Graham]

What bought this on KG?

Nothing specific Frosty, It’s just important I think that we get into perspective the issues both racers and officials face at meetings.

We both need to consider the other and the implications of failing to work within the rules that govern us.

A rule bend here or rules bend there or worse an ignoring of rules undermines both safety and the integrity of our sport.

Its mid way through the summer series & Tri series next weekend and the start of Nationals in a few weeks so just felt it important to let people know both me as a racer and me as an official intend to do the best I can to ensure the rules are complied with. We all sign our license’s agreeing to this each year. I want to see the ‘them and us’ barriers eroded and can see the issues from both sides and to be honest there not that far apart.

We have had instances where rules have been breached both at HD and in the winter series and everyone ends up in arms over it, I’m outlining what I (the racer) & we (AMCC) intend to the best of our ability doing about it from our perspective.

So you coming out for a skid at the weekend?

[MSTRS]

All rules should be based on fairplay, logic and/or safety.
Any breech of a rule should be dealt with immediately and consist of appropriate logical consequences.

One of the constant 'infringements' that annoys me is racers turning up to the dummy grid late (ie - the rest have been released onto the track and the gate, if there is one, is shut). Don't let these guys start from pitlane. You are too late. You miss this race. Tough.

[scrivy]

Turning up to scrutineering with your bike or gear filthy is another piss off. How are scrutineers supposed to visibly check things properly if they are not clean?

[Drew]

I've only done a few AMCC meetings, and I was only spannering at the recent Tri series round where AMCC were running the day.

I have but one complaint, Chris Costello can't fucking drive for shit! How anyone thought that a commonwhore ute, on road tyres, following a hilux ute was going to make any difference to the moisture on the track in ten laps, is out of my comprehension. Particularly when doing three minute laps.
As you were. :Punk:

[yungatart]

The only rules are the rules that are enforced.
Good on you KG!

[RDjase]

It is hard to 'physically' see the start of the yellow pit entry line at 200+k's but I 'know' where it is, I also know the advantage I would gain by trying to go up the inside (over the yellow line) in the braking zone for turn 1. I also know it is against rule 16 of the entry form.

What are we (AMCC) going to do about it?
We will have a 'spotter' (yep, yet another hard to find volunteer) who's job it will be to monitor transgressions into this area and report to CoC that will result in a black flag for offenders exluding them from the race. Its in the rules, item 16 on AMCC entry forms. I sign to say I understand those rules and agree to them so I wont be supprised if I infringe them and am exluded from the race (black flagged).



It is really easy to see from the the Ctas live timing, There must be room for a extra person up there

[GD66]

How anyone thought that a commonwhore ute, on road tyres, following a hilux ute was going to make any difference to the moisture on the track in ten laps, is out of my comprehension. Particularly when doing three minute laps... :Punk:

At Wanneroo, if the rain's stopped but there's free-standing water on-line before practice commences, the Clerk of Course gets 10 to 12 support utes out and gives them 10 minutes to sweep the line dry, with "spirited" lapping encouraged while he looks the other way and whistles...works well, and slick-shod competitors are most appreciative...:msn-wink:

[Bykmad]

It is really easy to see from the the Ctas live timing, There must be room for a extra person up there

Are you volunteering. Brilliant, report to marshalls briefing at 8.00am on Saturday morning. The job is yours for life, unless we need more marshalls, start personel, Dummy grid staff etc.

[Drew]

At Wanneroo, if the rain's stopped but there's free-standing water on-line before practice commences, the Clerk of Course gets 10 to 12 support utes out and gives them 10 minutes to sweep the line dry, with "spirited" lapping encouraged while he looks the other way and whistles...works well, and slick-shod competitors are most appreciative...:msn-wink:Drainage is good at Hamster down syndrome. No puddles to worry about, just misguided good intentions.

[RDjase]

It is really easy to see from the the Ctas live timing, There must be room for a extra person up there

Are you volunteering. Brilliant, report to marshalls briefing at 8.00am on Saturday morning. The job is yours for life, unless we need more marshalls, start personel, Dummy grid staff etc.

Its your club and track that is 5 hours drive away from my place and if I was there I would be in the pits working on bikes, and complying to the rules. I have marshalled before too and been involved with orginising events.

If everyone online can see riules getting broken and ignored it makes a arse of having them

[jellywrestler]

I also know it is against rule 16 of the entry form.

it was clearly pointed out also at riders breifing, seems one of the culprits was only there for the second half of said breifing though.
They also clearly told people that if your bike has a fault get off the track, Blayes Heaven on the Triumph 675 needs a hearing aid as in the first F2 race he rode most of the track at pitlane speed. This is exactly the behaviour that has lead to more than one fatality in recent years on our tracks, he did get a rev up I believe.

[Kiwi Graham]

It is really easy to see from the the Ctas live timing, There must be room for a extra person up there

Yes there is room and that's where the 'spotter ' will be.
Bykmad has a point if anyone wants an introduction to the halls of officialdom, sitting next to Grant in a luxury HD apartment wouldn't be a bad start.
I'll even feed you and pay some gas money :)...................anyone??

[yungatart]

Fly me over for each meeting and I could be keen..

[Gremlin]

I'll even feed you and pay some gas money :)...................anyone??
Sit on my arse and still get the same? No picking up bikes and sitting out in the elements?

Fuck yeah, I'll take that! :eek:

It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm pulled off flag marshal duties

[SWERVE]

Thought getting everyone (-1) on the track for a briefing and a light run down was good. (Lights are great too IMHO) ............................... however
That was te ONLY time on Sat that the pit instructions could be audibly heard (WTF is wrong with the PA system at HD)
Then we had the running order changed again and again with very little warning even if you could hear the PA.
Agree the attempt at track drying/water removal was laughable............ and meant the F2/F3 guys qualified on a half dry/half wet track instead of a full wet (IMHO a safer option) because of the delayed start. That saw some very hasty wheel changing.
There were NUMEROUS rule violations during the day for which i saw no action ( not saying it didnt happen) counted at least four riders travelling the wrong way down pitlane!
Nevertheless we had a good two days i terms of set up and experience.

Missing 1/2 of breifing - crossing yellow line = Gday Sonny


Lets hope it will improve ....... or Billy will have to get a BIGGER stick.

WELL DONE
CHOPPA
DENNIS CHARLETT
JADEN HASSEN
JEREMY HOLMES
... d of course Seth & Baillie

[bluninja]

Yes there is room and that's where the 'spotter ' will be.
Bykmad has a point if anyone wants an introduction to the halls of officialdom, sitting next to Grant in a luxury HD apartment wouldn't be a bad start.
I'll even feed you and pay some gas money :)...................anyone??

As long as I don't have to deliver lunches from the back of a ute driven by Chris Costello, I might be interested. Here's some AMCC "officials" from nearly a decade ago. I remember getting marshalls was a challenge back then too.

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197396_376609132420585_1899968777_n.jpg

[gixerracer]

So I will try my very best to.....

a) stick to them as a racer.
b) enforce them as a club.

To pick up a few points being made in other threads;

I sit in both camps; I still get the chance to get out on a race bike and more recently find myself in the position of an official.

Hampton Downs

It is hard to 'physically' see the start of the yellow pit entry line at 200+k's but I 'know' where it is, I also know the advantage I would gain by trying to go up the inside (over the yellow line) in the braking zone for turn 1. I also know it is against rule 16 of the entry form.

What are we (AMCC) going to do about it?
We will have a 'spotter' (yep, yet another hard to find volunteer) who's job it will be to monitor transgressions into this area and report to CoC that will result in a black flag for offenders exluding them from the race. Its in the rules, item 16 on AMCC entry forms. I sign to say I understand those rules and agree to them so I wont be supprised if I infringe them and am exluded from the race (black flagged).

The same level of compliance of the rules is expected of me and I sign to say I agree, on all other aspects relating to me racing my bike, be that the compliance of machine, behaviour of pit crew, race etiquette, flag adehrence...the list is a long one and the book a thick one.

What are we (AMCC) going to do about it?
Simply put, all we can do is enforce it, we would be in breech of the rules ourselves if we didn't.
Point marshals are better trained now, each point now has a senior marshal who has been round long enough to recognise what he/she see's and reports what has been seen to the CoC & Steward, they have the rule book in front of them and have no choice but to be guided by that rule and follow the course of action it dictates.

Yes of course some things go un-noticed but you still have options, speak to the steward or riders rep to seek clarification or guidance.

As an official I am not expected to be able to quote every rule vebatim out of the book, I am expected to be conversant with the rules that relate to the meeting I am running and know were in the rule book to find them for clarification (often in a time limiting mannor). I am also expected to ensure those rules are followed.

As a racer I'm also not expected to be able to quote every rule in the book but I expected to make sure the rules that relate to me, my bike, its class and the meeting I do know and as importantly I expect those running the meeting to be enforcing those rules so that all is fair for me.

Race meetings take a lot of personel to put on and a lot of organising to achieve, as much preperation is devoted to this 'pre' the meeting as racers give to their bikes pre meeting and belive it or not a de-brief 'post' the meeting to see what can be done better or different.

So;

As a racer, I'll turn up to the meeting with my bike prepared, conversant with the rules that apply to me, my team, my bike and its class. If I infinge any rule I expect to be pinged for it. The aim of my day is to have a great time enjoying racing my bike with like minded people.

As an organiser, I'll turn up to the meeting prepared for the day ahead, to ensure the rules are being followed to make it fair for everyone regardless of what class they are in. If any rule is infringed I'll simply be guided by what it says in the rule book and after taking into consideration what is said make a call. The aim of my day will be to enjoy watching and being part of you race your bike with like minded people.

Good luck to those going to Manfield for round 2, see the rest of you at HD :)


Well whom ever officiated in the weekend at HD and also at the Barry Sheene meeting needs to boe shot with a ball of there own shit! :corn:

[jellywrestler]

Well whom ever officiated in the weekend at HD and also at the Barry Sheene meeting needs to be shot with a ball of there own shit! :corn:If that's your view you're entitled to it and being from feilding no doubt you'd be wearing diving boots to accomplish this but what about the Chimps who are breaking the rules, what's your suggestion for them???????

[yungatart]

If that's your view you're entitled to it and being from feilding no doubt you'd be wearing diving boots to accomplish this but what about the Chimps who are breaking the rules, what's your suggestion for them???????

Pack 'em up and send 'em home....they'll only do it once, and their mates will get the message that clubs and officials mean business.
Not very PC in this day and age tho, which makes it a pretty unpopular option amongst the powers that be

[gixerracer]

Pack 'em up and send 'em home....they'll only do it once, and their mates will get the message that clubs and officials mean business.
Not very PC in this day and age tho, which makes it a pretty unpopular option amongst the powers that be

Problem is the powers that be havent got the sacks to inforce rules on certain high profile riders! FACT

[sugilite]

Yep, what he said.

[Drew]

Problem is the powers that be havent got the sacks to inforce rules on certain high profile riders! FACTThere was a superbike rider named Craig

Who once flew into a rage

He wasn't special enough

To get away with being rough

So he moaned on the KB page

[gixerracer]

There was a superbike rider named Craig

Who once flew into a rage

He wasn't special enough

To get away with being rough

So he moaned on the KB page

There once was a superbike rider named Drew

His riding stunk more than his poo

He really did suck

And in the end he gave up

TBC

[Drew]

There once was a superbike rider named Drew

His riding stunk more than his poo

He really did suck

And in the end he gave up

TBC

Has potential. More effort required though.

[Maha]

There once was a superbike rider named Drew

His riding stunk more than his poo

He really did suck

And in the end he gave up

TBC

...and the dish ran away with the spoon?

[Kiwi Graham]

Problem is the powers that be havent got the sacks to inforce rules on certain high profile riders! FACT

To be fair Craig your prob right.

But times are a changing and the only way to be fair to everyone is to instil consistancy across the board regardless of who the person is. The rule infringed should have the same consequence full stop.

Sure he or she can shout and stomp there feet and listened too but if they 'overstep' the line in that regard there is a consequence (in the rules) for that too!

Not being a hard assed bastard about it but AMCC will be making a huge effort to run there meetings (the next 3 club rounds and 4th round of the Nationals in March) in a way that is fair to everyone and that way is according to the rules. SImply put if you, your bike or your crew are outside of those rules (regardless of who you are or what class your in) then you know what will happen.

Of course the officials have to see it or have it reported and substantiated for this to work, oh and any 'blind eyes' wont be tolerated either.

[scott411]

Problem is the powers that be havent got the sacks to inforce rules on certain high profile riders! FACT

its not just in road racing, MX has the same problems, very few stewards will penalise riders and the riders will never accept it when they are and quite often throw thier toys,

one of the main problems I think is that penalities are so rare in our sport that when one is applied that everyone thinks they are victimised and normally come back with "everyone always does it"

[Billy]

its not just in road racing, MX has the same problems, very few stewards will penalise riders and the riders will never accept it when they are and quite often throw thier toys,

one of the main problems I think is that penalities are so rare in our sport that when one is applied that everyone thinks they are victimised and normally come back with "everyone always does it"

Yip,

But the biggest problem of all is that not too many people actually read the rulebook or supp regs and therefore count on ignorance as an excuse.

Be warned now,The NZSBK series will be a very different animal this year than its been for sometime,There will be some leeway given to those who we feel are genuine,But for the most part the rules will be administered as per the rulebook and those that have been on this site and other internet sites bagging the system,Might just have put themselves in the firing line,My advice would be to make sure your well versed in chapters 1 thru 10,22 and the relevant appendix for any machines you may be running as well as the supp regs,There will be something checked at random,At every opportunity we get,The Tech steward is primed and ready and I will be his 2IC.

[Drew]

Yip,

But the biggest problem of all is that not too many people actually read the rulebook or supp regs and therefore count on ignorance as an excuse.

Be warned now,The NZSBK series will be a very different animal this year than its been for sometime,There will be some leeway given to those who we feel are genuine,But for the most part the rules will be administered as per the rulebook and those that have been on this site and other internet sites bagging the system,Might just have put themselves in the firing line,My advice would be to make sure your well versed in chapters 1 thru 10,22 and the relevant appendix for any machines you may be running as well as the supp regs,There will be something checked at random,At every opportunity we get,The Tech steward is primed and ready and I will be his 2IC.
There goes half the fuckin pro twins class then.

[Billy]

There goes half the fuckin pro twins class then.

Well definitely one that springs too mind unless its been changed since last time I saw it Haha,Not Deanos though,You guys are safe.

[roogazza]

There goes half the fuckin pro twins class then.

I hope it's some proper cheating and not a different subframe or such like.
How many pro twins nowdays, five ? lol. Cut out a couple and there'd be no so called championship.

I see mention of someone crossing a yellow line for the pits, does anyone know all the other rule breaking going on.
Good thing it's not the 70s, cheating got you a yr without a licence. (if you got caught hahaha).

[Drew]

I hope it's some proper cheating and not a different subframe or such like.
How many pro twins nowdays, five ? lol. Cut out a couple and there'd be no so called championship.

I see mention of someone crossing a yellow line for the pits, does anyone know all the other rule breaking going on.
Good thing it's not the 70s, cheating got you a yr without a licence. (if you got caught hahaha).

Proper cheating. Deans bike has always been slow. So even though it only had 10,000km's on it when it got turned into a race bike, it got a freshen up. Dean being the anal retentive he is, wouldn't have a bar of the interpretive mods I wanted to make. Not illegal by my reading of the cam rule, but probably out side the spirit.

Beauty, should keep up now. NOT A CHANCE. Compression is the best way to get some power from an SV, it's also the best way to spit a conrod out the block when the big ends let go...That happens a bit to pro twins aye.

11 bikes entered for round one of the nats this year.

I could be wrong, but didn't Craig Freathy get a year long ban for doing s
omething wrong with an F3 bike inside the last decade or so?

[Billy]

I hope it's some proper cheating and not a different subframe or such like.
How many pro twins nowdays, five ? lol. Cut out a couple and there'd be no so called championship.



So what are you suggesting Gary,We should turn a blind eye to cheating in any shape or form,Just so the cheats,(Or in most cases,People who can't be arsed reading the relevant parts of the rulebook) can go racing ????

Pretty simple really,Read the relevant info and build your machine too suit,If your not sure,ASK,Ignorance is no excuse.Its not up to the individuals to interperet the rules,You either understand them...or not,If you dont,Call/Text or email me for a clarification.

[GD66]

Yip,

But the biggest problem of all is that not too many people actually read the rulebook or supp regs and therefore count on ignorance as an excuse.


Maybe not Billy, but when they sign their entry form, and again when they sign up on race day, they are signing off on the fact that they are undertaking to conduct themselves under the rules, so ignorance as an excuse doesn't stack up. When your eyes glaze over as you skim the fine print and hurry to put your signature at the bottom of the page, it says so in there. Besides, any racer worth his salt should read and understand the rules inside out to gain any possibility of exploiting them to the max to his advantage. Historic racing has a long and sad history of well-intentioned punters keen to recapture a period of their youth, and building up a long-fancied steed only to turn up at scrutineering and find what they've built doesn't conform, so they leave shaking their fist, vowing never to return, and telling all within earshot that this and that are all fucked.

READ THE RULES ! And that means GCRs and supp regs... then you won't look a gumby, and can actually conduct a civilised debate when things come into question

[Drew]

...can actually conduct a civilised debate when things come into questionDude, there's something wrong with your technique I reckon!

[jellywrestler]

There once was a superbike rider named Drew

you're a fucking Comedian man, I just about fell out of my secretary when i read that!!!
GOLD

[roogazza]

So what are you suggesting Gary,We should turn a blind eye to cheating in any shape or form,Just so the cheats,(Or in most cases,People who can't be arsed reading the relevant parts of the rulebook) can go racing ????


No no Billy, my comment was just a little tongue in cheek. I'm way out of touch and am just interested in the sort of rule bending that might be going on today. (I got no answer there!) I mean most of the older cheating was in the quest for horsepower in prod bikes. Some quite clever.
Although we did have chromed Konis,but they were easy to spot.

As an example (if you'll forgive an old fart dribbling on) A mate came over from Aust to ride a Triumph Bonny for Dickie Lawton. It was put together in the factory and balanced so the story goes lol. A top rider gave me his Mach 4 to test them together (on the western hutt road as it happened)To cut the tale short the mach4 blitzed the Triumph, I couldn't believe how Kawa went so I went home to get my one, which then happened to be exactly the same as the triumph ! Mine was stock the other two not so.
So, does that sort of thing happen today ?

ps Oh, the following week the triumph won 5 races at Levin, no protests whatsoever.

[GD66]

Who was that Gaz ? I can recall Dale Wylie cleaning up at Porirua in a 750 Bonnie, then Dave Hiscock getting stuck into the Mach IVs, but few other successful attempts on the Meriden twins.
Apart from the rather rapid 650 that Aucklander Garry Turner rode that his dad built, that WAS indecently quick...but well-ridden, too.

[roogazza]

Who was that Gaz ? I can recall Dale Wylie cleaning up at Porirua in a 750 Bonnie, then Dave Hiscock getting stuck into the Mach IVs, but few other successful attempts on the Meriden twins.
Apart from the rather rapid 650 that Aucklander Garry Turner rode that his dad built, that WAS indecently quick...but well-ridden, too.
Hi GD66, It was Brian Martin, he used to pop over here every so often and ride Dickie's bikes. You'll remember him, a close mate of Craig Brown (of the first Aus 6 hr fame).
Brian was NSW unlimited moto Champ, Five of us lived Sydney in about 1970.
274659

[GD66]

Thanks Gaz, I remember Brian well, he came back to live in the mid-70s and rode Suzukis while I was looking after Peter Ploen's mx bikes. I assume that's the same Bonnie Wylie rode, he used to lay it over and sledge round the corners on those big fat huckery mufflers. Rules is rules, but I'd like to have had a look inside that Bonnie "production" racer...:yes:

Good pic from Levin as well, cheers mate.

[Skunk]

To be fair Craig your prob right.

But times are a changing and the only way to be fair to everyone is to instil consistancy across the board regardless of who the person is. The rule infringed should have the same consequence full stop.

Sure he or she can shout and stomp there feet and listened too but if they 'overstep' the line in that regard there is a consequence (in the rules) for that too!

Not being a hard assed bastard about it but AMCC will be making a huge effort to run there meetings (the next 3 club rounds and 4th round of the Nationals in March) in a way that is fair to everyone and that way is according to the rules. SImply put if you, your bike or your crew are outside of those rules (regardless of who you are or what class your in) then you know what will happen.

Of course the officials have to see it or have it reported and substantiated for this to work, oh and any 'blind eyes' wont be tolerated either.Everyone can expect the same at Round 5 in Taupo. The Rules will NOT be interpreted.

[c4.]

Top job today Graham.
What a great comp.
Respect.
WW

[slowpoke]

So can someone explain why undersized bikes with the wrong colour number board are consistently allowed to cross enter classes they should be excluded from?

F1 as per Vic Club rules (I can't see Tri-Series now that entries are closed) is for 601-1300cc 4 cylinder bikes with a white number board, black numbers - not 599cc 4 cylinder bikes with a yellow number board.

Same goes for F3 bikes entering F2, with less than 401cc 4 cyl bikes (or illegally sized 2 strokes) having the wrong number board (black background, white numbers in F3).

Check out the Tri-Series entry list here http://www.cemeterycircuit.co.nz/riders-info/entries-recieved and there are clearly some accepted entries that need to be revised ASAP.

Edit: sorry, don't mean to be an arsehole but if I'm gonna be sent home because my numbers are not the right font as stipulated by MNZ then I wanna make damn sure every one else is playing within the rules.

[Billy]

So can someone explain why undersized bikes with the wrong colour number board are consistently allowed to cross enter classes they should be excluded from?

F1 as per Vic Club rules (I can't see Tri-Series now that entries are closed) is for 601-1300cc 4 cylinder bikes with a white number board, black numbers - not 599cc 4 cylinder bikes with a yellow number board.

Same goes for F3 bikes entering F2, with less than 401cc 4 cyl bikes (or illegally sized 2 strokes) having the wrong number board (black background, white numbers in F3).

Check out the Tri-Series entry list here http://www.cemeterycircuit.co.nz/riders-info/entries-recieved and there are clearly some accepted entries that need to be revised ASAP.

Edit: sorry, don't mean to be an arsehole but if I'm gonna be sent home because my numbers are not the right font as stipulated by MNZ then I wanna make damn sure every one else is playing within the rules.

Vic club supp regs allow for the cross entry of Formula 2 machines,Into their Formula 1 class,

The reason for the clamp down on numbers are,In the event of a serious incident,We need to know who is involved asap,In the event there is a problem with your machine we need to be able to read the number easily so we can warn you via the black flag,Likewise the jump start penalty and on top of that,We have had written complaints from spectators who can't identify riders.

Apart from that,It is also a protestable issue as its in the rulebook that everybody applying for a licence,Agrees to read and abide by.

[slowpoke]

Vic club supp regs allow for the cross entry of Formula 2 machines,Into their Formula 1 class,

The reason for the clamp down on numbers are,In the event of a serious incident,We need to know who is involved asap,In the event there is a problem with your machine we need to be able to read the number easily so we can warn you via the black flag,Likewise the jump start penalty and on top of that,We have had written complaints from spectators who can't identify riders.

Apart from that,It is also a protestable issue as its in the rulebook that everybody applying for a licence,Agrees to read and abide by.


All good with the numbers Billy, I completely understand the difficulties around them and the reasons for clamping down.

I just wasn't aware that a club could unilaterally make up supplementary regs that contradicted the MNZ Rules. Doesn't quite seem kosher that a criteria is defined by MNZ but a club can ignore it. I don't mean to be argumentative, it's just farkin' confusing is all even after reading and re-reading the rules of both club and MNZ.

"for the definition of A go to section C and apply sub-clause B, except in the case of a club determining otherwise where all parts of sub-clause B shall apply except for appendix F where the conditions listed in the supplementary regs back in section A are met, and ignore contradictions that may arise etc etc"

Gawd, my bloody head hurts........

[Grumph]

"for the definition of A go to section C and apply sub-clause B, except in the case of a club determining otherwise where all parts of sub-clause B shall apply except for appendix F where the conditions listed in the supplementary regs back in section A are met, and ignore contradictions that may arise etc etc"

Gawd, my bloody head hurts........

If you want a headache try writing the bloody rules....

Billy, while I appreciate what you're trying to achieve and wish you and Stu luck....have you got the distributors on side with this ?

I ask because I was involved on the periphery of an instance some years back where a 250 prod bike was found to have a worked barrel...disqualified. On appeal, supported by a letter from the distributor saying the mods would have made no difference, the disqualification was overturned....

The distributors don't want to see competitors penalised while using their product and the same circumstance could arise again.

[ellipsis]

...the biggest problem with interpretation of the rules is somewhat akin to how democracy works...it doesn't...

[Drew]

So, the using of two standard inlet or exhaust cams instead of one of each, to achieve more lift or overlap is still ok? They are OE parts after all.

[slowpoke]

So, the using of two standard inlet or exhaust cams instead of one of each, to achieve more lift or overlap is still ok? They are OE parts after all.

Haha, nice thinking mate. But my interpretation (which is kinda like opinions and arseholes, and worth fuckall in my case) is that an OE part isn't just a part number but also a location. Check any manual or parts fiche type software and you'll see an exploded drawing with part numbers and arrows/lines to each part saying where it's fitted. So an exhaust cam in the inlet cam location is not Original Equipment. I like your thinking though, Smokey Yunick would approve!

[Drew]

Haha, nice thinking mate. But my interpretation (which is kinda like opinions and arseholes, and worth fuckall in my case) is that an OE part isn't just a part number but also a location. Check any manual or parts fiche type software and you'll see an exploded drawing with part numbers and arrows/lines to each part saying where it's fitted. So an exhaust cam in the inlet cam location is not Original Equipment. I like your thinking though, Smokey Yunick would approve!

Yer not following me here Spud. What I have described has been common practice for at least a decade.

[slowpoke]

Yer not following me here Spud. What I have described has been common practice for at least a decade.

Yep, sharp as a bowling ball me. :sleep:

Interesting point though, is it known and accepted by the powers that be? Or is it something that has never been put to the test under protest?

Haha, I guess that leads to the next question: how many bikes can be protested at any given time by one individual?

[FROSTY]

Yer not following me here Spud. What I have described has been common practice for at least a decade.
In what race class drew?

[Drew]

In what race class drew?Only one I know to have had it done for a fact, was 600 proddie.

[FROSTY]

common practice in F3 for sv's before the hot cams became available

[Grumph]

common practice in F3 for sv's before the hot cams became available

Which would suggest it may be being done in pro twins....protest and find out if it's a distributor approved fitting...

[Drew]

common practice in F3 for sv's before the hot cams became availableHot cams have always been available, ya just need to have them built up and machined. That's been done for friggin ages.


Which would suggest it may be being done in pro twins....protest and find out if it's a distributor approved fitting...I have tried and tried to get Deano to buy another set, but he refuses.

I argue that since we know heaps of the front bikes are cheating, he has fuck all choice if he wants to keep up. He just puts his bottom lip out and mutters about two wrongs or something romatically stupid like that.

[SWERVE]

Im sure it actually states in ProTwin rules that inlets must be in the inlet side and same for exhaust...to clarify that little mod.

[Drew]

Im sure it actually states in ProTwin rules that inlets must be in the inlet side and same for exhaust...to clarify that little mod.

Oh, well if you're sure then...

[roogazza]

Hot cams have always been available, ya just need to have them built up and machined. That's been done for friggin ages.

I have tried and tried to get Deano to buy another set, but he refuses.

I argue that since we know heaps of the front bikes are cheating, he has fuck all choice if he wants to keep up. He just puts his bottom lip out and mutters about two wrongs or something romatically stupid like that.

Drew, if thems the rules dean needs to protest and clear his head.
To my mind cams won't be the difference. I seem to remember him being about 6 feet, and if he's around 12.5 stone thats more like his problem. For my thinking weight is a bigger handicap than a few horsepower.
He might come into his own in a bigger class of bike ?
I did a lot of testing on small prod bikes and it's all uphill unless you're 7 or 8 stone. (I was never less than 12 and a half) Makes it hard work if abilities are the same.

[Skunk]

I just wasn't aware that a club could unilaterally make up supplementary regs that contradicted the MNZ Rules. Doesn't quite seem kosher that a criteria is defined by MNZ but a club can ignore it. I don't mean to be argumentative, it's just farkin' confusing is all even after reading and re-reading the rules of both club and MNZ. MNZ don't have any rules for F1 or F2 nor F3. We can write entire rules for 100cc bikes and call the class F1 if we wanted. It would be bloody confusing. We can make up whatever we please under those names as long as the Road Race Commissioner is happy with it.

I think you're confusing Superbikes with F1...

[Drew]

Drew, if thems the rules dean needs to protest and clear his head.
To my mind cams won't be the difference. I seem to remember him being about 6 feet, and if he's around 12.5 stone thats more like his problem. For my thinking weight is a bigger handicap than a few horsepower.
He might come into his own in a bigger class of bike ?
I did a lot of testing on small prod bikes and it's all uphill unless you're 7 or 8 stone. (I was never less than 12 and a half) Makes it hard work if abilities are the same.Dean is between 70 and 80 kgs most of the time. Another rider in teh same class used Deans bike last year for Taupo. He told Dean it was slow also.

Protest? Have you ever tried it? You must quote the specific rule you think is being breached. If you're wrong, you're out $500 and an engine rebuild.

It aint about who's cheating, it's about who's cheating best. Shaun Harris gave us that wee gem...When he was supplying Jimmy with a 'cough', supersport bike.

[Kickaha]

I argue that since we know heaps of the front bikes are cheating, he has fuck all choice if he wants to keep up. He just puts his bottom lip out and mutters about two wrongs or something romatically stupid like that.
Wihtout stripping those bikes you dont know shit


If you're wrong, you're out $500 and an engine rebuild.
How can you be wrong? You just said "we know heaps of the front bikes are cheating" so you wont be out anything, obviously you dont have the balls to back up your accusations

Calling guys cheats and not backing it up is fucking bullshit

[jellywrestler]

Wihtout stripping those bikes you dont know shit



you should know that old marathon mouth knows everything by now

[yungatart]

you should know that old marathon mouth knows everything by now

Really? I thought only teenagers knew everything.:blink:

[Billy]

Dean is between 70 and 80 kgs most of the time. Another rider in teh same class used Deans bike last year for Taupo. He told Dean it was slow also.

Protest? Have you ever tried it? You must quote the specific rule you think is being breached. If you're wrong, you're out $500 and an engine rebuild.

It aint about who's cheating, it's about who's cheating best. Shaun Harris gave us that wee gem...When he was supplying Jimmy with a 'cough', supersport bike.

Err,

That would be $35.00,Unless your wrong,Then it will cost you big bucks,The $500 fee is for an appeal

[scott411]

its about time that some bikes were pulled down and checked at random, MNZ is the only form of motorsport body in NZ i know if that do not pull down motors at random, or require some sort of engine sealing on assembly,

their is so little chance of being caught that i would be very suprised if people are not cheating already,

[Drew]

Wihtout stripping those bikes you dont know shit


How can you be wrong? You just said "we know heaps of the front bikes are cheating" so you wont be out anything, obviously you dont have the balls to back up your accusations

Calling guys cheats and not backing it up is fucking bullshit


you should know that old marathon mouth knows everything by now

Seems to me, that it's you two cunt that know everything.

Balls to back it up Warwick? Get fucked ya cock! I don't race in the class, Why would I protest? And what rule do I protest?

Graeme, who the Fuck are yo calling marathon mouth? You've never shut your hole for more than ten seconds at a time your entire life.

Jam it up your arse the Fuckin pair of you. The guys Abusing the cam rules aren't cheating in my book, just being smarter to get an advantage. I would rather the rule was clarified for the sake of making it easier on a mate is all. Unless it's already stated that cams must be located in their standard positions, in which case it will need clarified that dialing in is still legit.

[roogazza]

Dean is between 70 and 80 kgs most of the time. Another rider in teh same class used Deans bike last year for Taupo. He told Dean it was slow also.

Protest? Have you ever tried it? You must quote the specific rule you think is being breached. If you're wrong, you're out $500 and an engine rebuild.

Ok ,guess he's lighter than i thought. The old'his bike is faster than mine' has echoed around the pits from year dot huh !

I seem to recall the first three being pulled down once at a Manfeild meet(probably points races?) But it didn't happen much.
Of course pulling off the top of a two stroke was easy but I bet they missed a lot of clever mods much deeper ?

I've never protested, but yes, you pay.
Anyway things are changing by the sound of it.

[Drew]

Anyway things are changing by the sound of it.Maybe. I applaud the rules being enforced for track rule infringements of course, but I doubt bikes will start being checked properly in motorcycling. The cost is prohibitive, and who the fuck would want the job of checking things anyway? However, if ALL the rules aren't enforced, should anyone obey any rules? Who picks and chooses which ones too?

It doesn't really matter to me. Anyone who openly says that rule bending is going on, is shut down the way I have been with the cry that I can't prove it, so it gets ignored and put in the too hard basket.

The protest/appeal fees are a bit hard to justify I think, but I wouldn't go that route if someone was cheating in a race I was in so it's moot again.

Dunno, I'm all over the show on this issue. No clear thoughts one way or the other, probably because I'm not racing right now.

[Deano]

I'm currently 82kgs - I put on a few kg's after crashing at HD in March - I got up to 86kg's but have been back into the exercise for a couple of months now.

There have been times in club racing when I have struggled to keep up with a few SV's. Even after getting on the gas earlier out of Dunlop at Manfeild - couldn't even slip stream the dude in front which was pretty frustrating - but short of calling him a cheat, he did have a lot of distributor backing and I had heard his motor was balanced and blueprinted - all legal as far as I know.

BUT - I also know a racer in the same class at the time built up his SV motor to the nth degree, plus a little timing advance mod which was not legal (in his words), and he still got dragged off in a straight line by the aforementioned bike. The riders both the same weight too.

I know of another SV which had the same mod done. This was at club level and while frustrating it was still club level and I couldn't be arsed protesting.

I have also heard from top F3 racers about pro twins not being pro twins - I mean, how can a pro twin keep up with a top F3 bike (and top rider) in a straight line? There should be a good 10HP difference between the two.

I'm not grizzling about it but it doesn't add up. I have no proof and so will not publically slander anyone either.

At the Nats earlier this year, there was nothing between the pro twin field that I could see. Slipstreaming occurred - there was some very good close racing. At Timaru the top 6 qualified within 0.6s from memory. Bryan Hill ran away with every race - the one time I was in frotn he came past me on the straight, but I knowingly muffed the exit of the corner and he got way better drive.

At HD, I felt I was all over the SI'ers, so much so that I showed a couple of them around the track in practice to make them faster in the hope I could put them between Bryan and myself so I could claw back some points.

I'm looking forward to the same close competition again this year.

[Edbear]

Really? I thought only teenagers knew everything.:blink:

And me... I know stuff.. :pinch:

[Tony.OK]

Unless it's already stated that cams must be located in their standard positions, in which case it will need clarified that dialing in is still legit.

1 Machine Specifications:
a) Twin cylinder four strokes up to 650cc standard engines. (Only OEM engine parts for that model may be fitted)
b) Be fitted with V.I.N compliance plates for the particular machine
c) Be of a make and model lawfully sold in New Zealand,
d) Be as constructed by the original manufacturer

The following OEM parts may be modified:
a) Engine cam wheels may be slotted to alter valve timing




Clear as a clear thing on a clear day innit! :yes:

[Drew]

1 Machine Specifications:
a) Twin cylinder four strokes up to 650cc standard engines. (Only OEM engine parts for that model may be fitted)
b) Be fitted with V.I.N compliance plates for the particular machine
c) Be of a make and model lawfully sold in New Zealand,
d) Be as constructed by the original manufacturer

The following OEM parts may be modified:
a) Engine cam wheels may be slotted to alter valve timing




Clear as a clear thing on a clear day innit! :yes:I still interpret that to read, no modification of the parts, assemble as you like.

[Tony.OK]

I still interpret that to read, no modification of the parts, assemble as you like.

As constructed by manufacturer............................not many come out with all the same cams do they?
You been into my Irish liqueurs again?

[Drew]

As constructed by manufacturer............................not many come out with all the same cams do they?
You been into my Irish liqueurs again?

See, we interpret it different.

[slowpoke]

MNZ don't have any rules for F1 or F2 nor F3. We can write entire rules for 100cc bikes and call the class F1 if we wanted. It would be bloody confusing. We can make up whatever we please under those names as long as the Road Race Commissioner is happy with it.

I think you're confusing Superbikes with F1...

No, I'm confused alright but I saw this little lot about number boards from MNZ 10.2.3:

"Formula One White background, black figures
Formula Two Yellow background, black figures
Formula Three Black background, white figures"

and missed the wee "Pre-89" designation above it. Then read the Vic Club rules regarding the capacity limits for the Formula classes.....but not the fine print that basically disregards the capacity limits. Sheesh, I'm just gonna rock up and if I get booted I'm off to the pub and spend the $$$ saved -> win win.

PS: if someone does get done for cheating I hope they make a decent job of it, it'd be farkin' embarrassing to be done for a 655cc pro-twin when there are perfectly good 750 kits available.....

[FROSTY]

Drew- the point being if you know for fact that the specific modification is being made then its pretty easy to make a protest specific to that modification.
But think it through. What modifications have been made and could be made to a "production" engine to get more HP?
Shave the barels to boost compression. Then you need to replace the studs because the factory ones stretch.-How would you check a shaved barrel?
reprofiled factory cams.different internals in the ecu. Heck the list is huge and most things are undetectable without carefull measureing.
Which is why right from the moment PT was being discussed at Ruapuna in 2006 I said make it a 76hp apsolute limit.
Do what you like inside the engine and ECU but if you get pulled and your bike makes more than 76hp you are disqualified.
People got up in arms with lots of reasons why not. Funny though that the self same rule applies in the UK in their "pro twins" class and has proven to be very successful for a lot of years

[slowpoke]

Which is why right from the moment PT was being discussed at Ruapuna in 2006 I said make it a 76hp apsolute limit.
Do what you like inside the engine and ECU but if you get pulled and your bike makes more than 76hp you are disqualified.
People got up in arms with lots of reasons why not. Funny though that the self same rule applies in the UK in their "pro twins" class and has proven to be very successful for a lot of years

How's that gonna work Frosty? Is MNZ gonna buy a Dyno? At what atmospheric conditions? 76hp at altitude at Taupo or sea level at Teretonga?

Edit: not to mention folks just go chasing a fatter and fatter midrange, with faster spin up/less gyro forces with cams, lightened internals etc. So it becomes just another spendathon as everyone has to ante up for Ti rods, lightened cranks, aftermarket cams etc or they can't compete.

[RDjase]

I'm currently 82kgs - I put on a few kg's after crashing at HD in March - I got up to 86kg's but have been back into the exercise for a couple of months now.

There have been times in club racing when I have struggled to keep up with a few SV's. Even after getting on the gas earlier out of Dunlop at Manfeild - couldn't even slip stream the dude in front which was pretty frustrating - but short of calling him a cheat, he did have a lot of distributor backing and I had heard his motor was balanced and blueprinted - all legal as far as I know.

BUT - I also know a racer in the same class at the time built up his SV motor to the nth degree, plus a little timing advance mod which was not legal (in his words), and he still got dragged off in a straight line by the aforementioned bike. The riders both the same weight too.

I know of another SV which had the same mod done. This was at club level and while frustrating it was still club level and I couldn't be arsed protesting.

I have also heard from top F3 racers about pro twins not being pro twins - I mean, how can a pro twin keep up with a top F3 bike (and top rider) in a straight line? There should be a good 10HP difference between the two.

I'm not grizzling about it but it doesn't add up. I have no proof and so will not publically slander anyone either.

At the Nats earlier this year, there was nothing between the pro twin field that I could see. Slipstreaming occurred - there was some very good close racing. At Timaru the top 6 qualified within 0.6s from memory. Bryan Hill ran away with every race - the one time I was in frotn he came past me on the straight, but I knowingly muffed the exit of the corner and he got way better drive.

At HD, I felt I was all over the SI'ers, so much so that I showed a couple of them around the track in practice to make them faster in the hope I could put them between Bryan and myself so I could claw back some points.

I'm looking forward to the same close competition again this year.

HD laptimes are easy to get quicker, just ride on the yellow pit lines, they say you can't and there is penaltys at riders breifing, but just miss breifing and your all go............as Tri Series runs.......video evidence of cheating dont mean jack shit as well

[tail_end_charlie]

How's that gonna work Frosty? Is MNZ gonna buy a Dyno? At what atmospheric conditions? 76hp at altitude at Taupo or sea level at Teretonga?

Edit: not to mention folks just go chasing a fatter and fatter midrange, with faster spin up/less gyro forces with cams, lightened internals etc. So it becomes just another spendathon as everyone has to ante up for Ti rods, lightened cranks, aftermarket cams etc or they can't compete.

What!?!? Racing is a spendathon? Oh shit, no-one has told me that before. I guess 'Pro-twins' is to 'cheap racing' as 'jumbo shrimp' is to 'oxymoron'.

The more you rules that you instigate to control the amount of spending on a racebike, the more you have to police the rules. A rule not enforced is a rule not followed. So any ideas about how to curtail the modifications (ie, the amount of money spent) on Pro-twins needs to come with a example of how to enforce that rule.

Limit the engine mods ==> Need to examine the engine internals on a random basis to ensure compliance.

Limit HP ==> Dyno each bike prior to race.

Limit the $ spent on a bike build ==> Access to the person's complete finacials (and that of their wife/partner, family, friends, coworkers, ect ect)

Hell you could go the Moto2 route and produce an sealed engine package for Pro-twins that everone who wanted to race the class would have to buy. But who's going to build the engines to spec? How do you price them? Who services them? What happens when one goes bang? And most importantly, whose going to organize and foot the bill????


Motorcyclists in general are not the most likely group of people to follow the rules..........so to expect them to do so without checking them is as good as pissing into the wind.

[MarcusWyatt]

one of the main problems I think is that penalities are so rare in our sport that when one is applied that everyone thinks they are victimised and normally come back with "everyone always does it"

Well, I got disqualified from the Pro-Twin Race 1 on Saturday (AMCC Rnd 3) for <del>crossing</del> touching the pit entry line...:brick: hahaha....

So stop stirring this pot now guys....lol...

So by the way, does anybody know why that race was red flagged?

[Drew]

So by the way, does anybody know why that race was red flagged?Cheating cunts I reckon.

[Mental Trousers]

Well, I got disqualified from the Pro-Twin Race 1 on Saturday (AMCC Rnd 3) for <del>crossing</del> touching the pit entry line...:brick: hahaha....

Was that a couple of hundred metres before you snuck past me to steal a place just short of the finish line?? If so - hahahahahaha

;)

[Drew]

Was that a couple of hundred metres before you snuck past me to steal a place just short of the finish line?? If so - hahahahahaha

;)What the fuck were you doing in a pro twins race?

[Mental Trousers]

What the fuck were you doing in a pro twins race?

Ah whoops. It was the F3 race he passed me just before the line. Forgot Pro Twins were running separately on Saturday :pinch:

[Drew]

Ah whoops. It was the F3 race he passed me just before the line. Forgot Pro Twins were running separately on Saturday :pinch:
Why the fuck was a pro twin going past you?

[Mental Trousers]

Why the fuck was a pro twin going past you?

Pro Twins @ AMCC is ANY twin.

[Drew]

Pro Twins @ AMCC is ANY twin.Oh yeah, I should have remembered that. I used to race the 749 in it.

[Gremlin]

So by the way, does anybody know why that race was red flagged?
If it's the race I'm thinking of, the debris flag was out on T1, the lights came on to show debris, riders mis-read it and slowed down, so the race was flagged. Over 60% complete, race was declared.


Oh yeah, I should have remembered that. I used to race the 749 in it.
Shoulda seen the Nuda kicking arse!

[Drew]

Shoulda seen the Nuda kicking arse!
What's a Nuda?

[MarcusWyatt]

Shoulda seen the Nuda kicking arse!

Fuck yeah, that thing looked like it had a turbo charger on it... Totally, awesome tho...

[Deano]

HD laptimes are easy to get quicker, just ride on the yellow pit lines, they say you can't and there is penaltys at riders breifing, but just miss breifing and your all go............as Tri Series runs.......video evidence of cheating dont mean jack shit as well

Roll call at rider's briefing ?

No attend, no race ?

[MarcusWyatt]

Was that a couple of hundred metres before you snuck past me to steal a place just short of the finish line?? If so - hahahahahaha :2thumbsup

Nah, the race after that...

Geez, dude. In the 2nd F3 race I crashed on turn 5 on lap 2. Remember all the dust!!! My left leg is still freaken sore from that... :pinch:

On the day I was fine, but on Sunday morning I felt very second hand...lol...

[yungatart]

Roll call at rider's briefing ?

No attend, no race ?

At PMCC meetings, you bring your helmet to briefing and they put a sticker on it. Proof that you were there, but not necessarily that you listened.

[Mental Trousers]

Geez, dude. In the 2nd F3 race I crashed on turn 5 on lap 2. Remember all the dust!!! My left leg is still freaken sore from that... :pinch:

On the day I was fine, but on Sunday morning I felt very second hand...lol...

Yeah, I saw Peter Woodford go over the brow then there was a huge cloud of dust. Thought it was him.

You didn't have such a great day in F3. R1 you had bailed and take the escape road instead of hitting someone and lost heaps of places. R2 you dumped it in the kitty litter.

[Drew]

Someone infract whoever this 'mentaltrousers' cunt is, for taking the thread off topic.

[Gremlin]

What's a Nuda?
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Testing/husqvarna/2012_Nuda_900R/Husqvarna_Nuda_Review.htm

[Drew]

http://www.mcnews.com.au/Testing/husqvarna/2012_Nuda_900R/Husqvarna_Nuda_Review.htmIt's no superduke, but cool I suppose, since it's a large capacity hoons bike.

[Deano]

At PMCC meetings, you bring your helmet to briefing and they put a sticker on it. Proof that you were there, but not necessarily that you listened.

Spot quiz at end of briefing then ? LOL

[Kickaha]

Roll call at rider's briefing ?No attend, no race ?
Enforcing that would have cost Stroud at least one championship

[tail_end_charlie]

Enforcing that would have cost Stroud at least one championship

Betcha it would have only happened once though......................................and everyone else would put attending the race brief much higher on their priority list.

[Grumph]

Maybe. I applaud the rules being enforced for track rule infringements of course, but I doubt bikes will start being checked properly in motorcycling. The cost is prohibitive, and who the fuck would want the job of checking things anyway? However, if ALL the rules aren't enforced, should anyone obey any rules? Who picks and chooses which ones too?

It doesn't really matter to me. Anyone who openly says that rule bending is going on, is shut down the way I have been with the cry that I can't prove it, so it gets ignored and put in the too hard basket.

The protest/appeal fees are a bit hard to justify I think, but I wouldn't go that route if someone was cheating in a race I was in so it's moot again.

Dunno, I'm all over the show on this issue. No clear thoughts one way or the other, probably because I'm not racing right now.

Some years back we pulled down the entire 250 prod field after the last points race of the season at Levels. Very amusing...

We had supplied by Suzuki, a std head, barrel, piston and head & base gaskets for comparison purposes.

From memory 3 running without air cleaner elements, a couple of shaved heads, one ported motor as i've quoted earlier - and one of the ones without an air cleaner had a dead flat battery when the charging system was tested. It was gently pointed out to him that was probably costing him a couple of HP - but he was out anyway with no air cleaner...
I believe the first 3 in 600 prod have been pulled down in the past too.
It can be done - but probably should be earlier in the season, even if this cuts down on the number coming South....

[Mental Trousers]

It can be done - but probably should be earlier in the season, even if this cuts down on the number coming South....

I reckon it should be done at a critical point in the season. If anyone is going to cheat it's in the latter half of the season when things are tight and every single point counts.

[jellywrestler]

At PMCC meetings, you bring your helmet to briefing and they put a sticker on it. Proof that you were there, but not necessarily that you listened. or you even took your helmet there...
At least you're trying, roll call would take too long maybe an arm band would be handed out but that's got issues in that i could get one for another person etc

[yungatart]

or you even took your helmet there...
At least you're trying, roll call would take too long maybe an arm band would be handed out but that's got issues in that i could get one for another person etc

I am not a member of PMCC, but, yes, they are trying.
You can't legislate against stupidity though or arrogance either. Somewhere along the line, honesty should prevail...or is that my idealism showing again :brick:

[SWERVE]

Some years back we pulled down the entire 250 prod field after the last points race of the season at Levels. Very amusing...

We had supplied by Suzuki, a std head, barrel, piston and head & base gaskets for comparison purposes.

From memory 3 running without air cleaner elements, a couple of shaved heads, one ported motor as i've quoted earlier - and one of the ones without an air cleaner had a dead flat battery when the charging system was tested. It was gently pointed out to him that was probably costing him a couple of HP - but he was out anyway with no air cleaner...
I believe the first 3 in 600 prod have been pulled down in the past too.
It can be done - but probably should be earlier in the season, even if this cuts down on the number coming South....

Top 3 600,s were inspected at Invergargill in 2011 if i remember correctly...... im sure STU/BILLY has a plan for this year.
When i used to work at track days in UK, we used to have a roped off area for briefing with only one exit ,,all riders were asked to bring helmet to briefing. As they filed out through exit all helmet owners were given a small laminated card as proof of attendance. This card had to be placed in the gap between screen and nose cone of bike when you went out for first session. As each bike passed 2 people at end of pitlane thay removed the cards from front of bike (it took no time at all with 2 people.) Simple NO card - NO tracktime.
But we did sometimes get a pit crew member attend with riders helmet.... but at least one member of crew had attended briefing. But as stated just cos you attended doesnt mean you are listening as is all too apparaent it seems.

[Skunk]

...Then read the Vic Club rules regarding the capacity limits for the Formula classes.....but not the fine print that basically disregards the capacity limits. Which bit is that? I just read them and can't see that. I'd like to clarify it if it's being mis-read.

[Deano]

I reckon it should be done at a critical point in the season. If anyone is going to cheat it's in the latter half of the season when things are tight and every single point counts.

Unless you cheat early on and build a nice lead, then revert your engine back for the latter two rounds.

[Mental Trousers]

Unless you cheat early on and build a nice lead, then revert your engine back for the latter two rounds.

Would need to be a big lead otherwise you risk getting caught.

[Drew]

Motors get pulled down at the start of the season. When they are put back together, they are sealed. Simple.

[roogazza]

Unless you cheat early on and build a nice lead, then revert your engine back for the latter two rounds.

Dean, testing completed. You may have go with heavier springs though !

274815

[slowpoke]

Hmmm, this isn't World Superbikes, many of us won't EVER go inside our engines, so the prospect of engines being inspected once or twice a year is pretty daunting financially and will scare off most average club members thinking about the odd Championship entry close to home. All there needs to be is a CREDIBLE RISK of being inspected and most will play by the rules. We may be at one end of the spectrum with very few inspections at the moment but lets not go too far the other way and impose unnecessary burdens on already stretched finances.

I can't help feeling it's the bikes that are partly to blame these days. It's one thing ripping the top off a 350LC or X7 but a completely different thing pulling apart a GSXR600 or similar. The level of technical knowledge these days to actually inspect a bike is just getting ridiculous and would be incredibly time consuming to do in any sort of meaningful way.

I support some kind of checks but the actual logistics and cost of doing so are frightening. And what the hell are you supposed to do if you are 1000km's from home/workshop and someone decides they need to strip your bike? How are you supposed to go racing the next weekend? Most of us have got a reasonable mechanical knowledge but we're not full bottle motorcycle mechanics able to reassemble an engine trackside.

I don't know what the answer is but realistically we are only racing for pride and a $20 plastic trophy, so we need to keep it in perspective.

[Drew]

Hmmm, this isn't World Superbikes, many of us won't EVER go inside our engines, so the prospect of engines being inspected once or twice a year is pretty daunting financially and will scare off most average club members thinking about the odd Championship entry close to home. All there needs to be is a CREDIBLE RISK of being inspected and most will play by the rules. We may be at one end of the spectrum with very few inspections at the moment but lets not go too far the other way and impose unnecessary burdens on already stretched finances.

I can't help feeling it's the bikes that are partly to blame these days. It's one thing ripping the top off a 350LC or X7 but a completely different thing pulling apart a GSXR600 or similar. The level of technical knowledge these days to actually inspect a bike is just getting ridiculous and would be incredibly time consuming to do in any sort of meaningful way.

I support some kind of checks but the actual logistics and cost of doing so are frightening. And what the hell are you supposed to do if you are 1000km's from home/workshop and someone decides they need to strip your bike? How are you supposed to go racing the next weekend? Most of us have got a reasonable mechanical knowledge but we're not full bottle motorcycle mechanics able to reassemble an engine trackside.

I don't know what the answer is but realistically we are only racing for pride and a $20 plastic trophy, so we need to keep it in perspective.Are you kidding? It's a piece of piss to whip the head off a modern bike and have it fucked with.

You don't think people are doing it, and mid to rear pack with you, (I'm not being mean bro, just stacking my case), they probably aren't. In superbike and supersport it might not be happening at all, (I highly fuckin doubt it though, where's Ozzy to answer a few questions when ya need him)?

It doesn't mean the same thing to you, as it does to other people. You do it for love of riding fast, the top guys wanna win. I know you can't understand why it would be that important to them, the same as I can't understand why the hell anyone races to do anything other than win.

[slowpoke]

Are you kidding? It's a piece of piss to whip the head off a modern bike and have it fucked with.

You don't think people are doing it, and mid to rear pack with you, (I'm not being mean bro, just stacking my case), they probably aren't. In superbike and supersport it might not be happening at all, (I highly fuckin doubt it though, where's Ozzy to answer a few questions when ya need him)?

It doesn't mean the same thing to you, as it does to other people. You do it for love of riding fast, the top guys wanna win. I know you can't understand why it would be that important to them, the same as I can't understand why the hell anyone races to do anything other than win.

No offence taken mate, never a truer word spoken regards where I sit. But I completely understand why it's important to the front runners', I've been at the pointy end in other sports myself....but we're not racing to find a cure for cancer. I got a bit twisted up in an earlier life keeping that in mind myself, hence you probably see me as too much the other way these days but so be it.

I'm not saying nobody fucks with 'em, I'm saying it's a much bigger job in both time and knowledge to police than it was back in the day. How long is it gonna take to strip say the Production 600 podium finishers? Who's gonna do it? And they have to be reassembled ready to race inside a couple of days so you don't miss the mid-week practice. For many of us that's just not do-able.

As an example I don't like the OEM slipper clutch in my GSXR. I checked it over the other week, getting ready for heading down south, and thought how easy would it be to modify the ramps for a more progressive action? Another high profile superbike I know of had a close ratio gearbox installed. So the tech inspection has to be a shitload more than just ripping the head off and after Ozzy (who is a GSXR guru) refreshed my bike last year I know what we are talking about in both labour time and cost.

[Billy]

No offence taken mate, never a truer word spoken regards where I sit. But I completely understand why it's important to the front runners', I've been at the pointy end in other sports myself....but we're not racing to find a cure for cancer. I got a bit twisted up in an earlier life keeping that in mind myself, hence you probably see me as too much the other way these days but so be it.

I'm not saying nobody fucks with 'em, I'm saying it's a much bigger job in both time and knowledge to police than it was back in the day. How long is it gonna take to strip say the Production 600 podium finishers? Who's gonna do it? And they have to be reassembled ready to race inside a couple of days so you don't miss the mid-week practice. For many of us that's just not do-able.

As an example I don't like the OEM slipper clutch in my GSXR. I checked it over the other week, getting ready for heading down south, and thought how easy would it be to modify the ramps for a more progressive action? Another high profile superbike I know of had a close ratio gearbox installed. So the tech inspection has to be a shitload more than just ripping the head off and after Ozzy (who is a GSXR guru) refreshed my bike last year I know what we are talking about in both labour time and cost.

The one thing you need to take into consideration Spud,Is with most late model Jap stuff and by late model I mean as far back as 88,If you don't put the full range of parts available in,Then the benefits are minimal,Its pretty easy to check cams,Ignition maps etc and if we find anything irregular there,Then the decision will be made as to whether the machine is stripped further and some will be surprised at some of the stuff we check,Not sure that your concerns re the ability to get the job done in an orderly fashion carry much weight either,There will be plenty of hands on deck with Stu Holdaway the tech rep and a very experienced and accomplished motorcycle technician with 40 years experience,As well as myself and Peter Ramage and 2 members from the clubs running each round,All taken care of in a proper parc ferme in a garage supplied by the organising club,Not saying we're gonna be on a witch hunt,But the masses have asked for this sort of thing for long enough and its time to deliver,Enjoy!!!!

[slowpoke]

The one thing you need to take into consideration Spud,Is with most late model Jap stuff and by late model I mean as far back as 88,If you don't put the full range of parts available in,Then the benefits are minimal,Its pretty easy to check cams,Ignition maps etc and if we find anything irregular there,Then the decision will be made as to whether the machine is stripped further and some will be surprised at some of the stuff we check,Not sure that your concerns re the ability to get the job done in an orderly fashion carry much weight either,There will be plenty of hands on deck with Stu Holdaway the tech rep and a very experienced and accomplished motorcycle technician with 40 years experience,As well as myself and Peter Ramage and 2 members from the clubs running each round,All taken care of in a proper parc ferme in a garage supplied by the organising club,Not saying we're gonna be on a witch hunt,But the masses have asked for this sort of thing for long enough and its time to deliver,Enjoy!!!!

Thanks Billy. Sorry mate, seem to be arguing a lot but just trying to imagine how it would all play out in real life. Didn't mean to cast dispersions regarding technical ability, just knew it had to come from somewhere and some smart technical folks were going to be required when volounteers are already thin on the ground. Parc ferme/garage was also a worry as I was thinking about it: as you know our facilities can be a lil' challenging but it sounds like you are well and truly on to it.

Enough of me playing devils advocate, I'll be trying to do exactly as you suggest, albeit a day or so late come the first round. See ya there.

[Deano]

Just querying here - If your bike is subjected to a small strip down to check compliance and it's all good, it gets reassembled at no cost to the racer?

If it's been hot rodded, the racer gets handed back the bits and told to bugger off ?

[Deano]

Hey Merv,
how does the UK dyno testing and HP limit work?

As Spud pointed out before about temperature, air pressure etc - there must be equations to factor that all in yeah?

[Drew]

As an example I don't like the OEM slipper clutch in my GSXR. I checked it over the other week, getting ready for heading down south, and thought how easy would it be to modify the ramps for a more progressive action? Another high profile superbike I know of had a close ratio gearbox installed. So the tech inspection has to be a shitload more than just ripping the head off and after Ozzy (who is a GSXR guru) refreshed my bike last year I know what we are talking about in both labour time and cost.
You've been allowed to upgrade slipper clutches forever mate, what's the boggle?

Or are you gonna be the one guy running superstock this year?

[slowpoke]

You've been allowed to upgrade slipper clutches forever mate, what's the boggle?

Or are you gonna be the one guy running superstock this year?

Per MNZ Superbike rules:

3.9 The following may be replaced with parts not manufactured by the manufacturer of the machine:

o) Clutch plates and springs

So the options are limited. Yeah you can experiment with different spring/plate combo's (has yoshi spring/plates at mo) but it's never gonna be as silky smooth as say the Ferraci unit in your old 749R. Not a biggie but someone with an illegally modified clutch would definitely have an advantage in stability. It was just an example anyway, and prolly a bad one at that.

Nah, just Clubbies for me mate: great Mexican hospitality at best tracks in NZ, and hopefully learn a bit watching the big boys (Deano!) show how it's really done. I'm normally lucky to make 3 weekend's racing in 6 months so 3 weekends back to back is an opportunity too good to pass up.

[Deano]

hopefully learn a bit watching the big boys (Deano!) show how it's really done. I'm normally lucky to make 3 weekend's racing in 6 months so 3 weekends back to back is an opportunity too good to pass up.

Hey thanks Spud but pro twins is hardly the big time LOL

[Skunk]

See, we interpret it different.With rules there is meant to be no interpretation. It is as it is written. If the manufacturer doesn't put two inlet cams in then neither can you.

[Tony.OK]

You've been allowed to upgrade slipper clutches forever mate, what's the boggle?



Back to school for you bro!

[Kiwi Graham]

All I can say is guys, read the rules pertaining to your bike and class and make sure you are within them.
From a simple point of number size and position to the noise it makes and the more complicated aspect of internal mods.

The Nationals in particular are going to be a very different animal this season from both a Machine Examination point of view to a parc ferme tech inspection point of view.

As Skunk has pointed out there will be no interpretation of a rule, it will be as per the rule, if you have any doubts about a particular rule ask now rather than risk it later.

All I an say is go through them line by line and satisfy yourself your ok.

Remember the reason for this is to make it fair for you, me and the guy sat next to you on the grid, any advantage should be down to ability and not illegality.

[Mental Trousers]

Appendix A - Superstock 1000 & 600, 5th paragraph

The appearance from both front, rear and the profile of Superstock motorcycles must (except when otherwise stated) conform to the homologated shape (as originally produced by the manufacturer). All parts and functions must remain as per OEM specifications unless stated otherwise!

Appendix C - Superbike, 3rd paragraph

The appearance from front, rear and the profile of Superbike motorcycles must (except when otherwise stated) conform to the original shape (as originally produced by the manufacturer). All parts and functions must remain as per OEM specifications unless stated otherwise!

Appendix F - Pro Twin, 3rd paragraph

All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturers, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.

Appendix G - Supersport, 4th paragraph

The appearance from both front, rear and the side profile of Supersport motorcycles must (except when otherwise stated) conform to the homologated shape (as originally produced by the manufacturer). All parts and functions must remain as per OEM specifications unless stated otherwise!

Appendix I - 250 Production, 5th paragraph

All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.
The parts and service manuals for the homologated models will be used as reference to confirm standard specifications.

These are the most important bits if you ask me. Basically, in those classes if it's not specifically allowed then it's illegal.

[Drew]

With rules there is meant to be no interpretation. It is as it is written. If the manufacturer doesn't put two inlet cams in then neither can you.Not one bike on the grid complies then. What if I put the wrong bolt in a hole?

[scracha]

Not one bike on the grid complies then. What if I put the wrong bolt in a hole?

Dunno. But if you put your bolt in the wrong hole you might end up riding sidecars.

[Drew]

Dunno. But if you put your bolt in the wrong hole you might end up riding sidecars.
Sooooooooo, win/win?