Rectifier Regulators?

[smokiesam]

Hi Guys
Can someone explain why you can't use any model simalar size. ie 15 amps 3 wires from stator and 2 wires back to the battery. I'm sure the black box must be SCRs now so only switch on at the right voltages and switch off when voltage to high.

[pete376403]

Heres a good read about motorcycle charging systems. May answer your question.
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

[paturoa]

Hi Guys
Can someone explain why you can't use any model simalar size. ie 15 amps 3 wires from stator and 2 wires back to the battery. I'm sure the black box must be SCRs now so only switch on at the right voltages and switch off when voltage to high.

Who says you can't?

EDIT: Good explanation in Pete's post. Most modern RRs are a little different to the one in that diagram, in that they regulate each of the inputs seperately, rather then one big fat SCR (cheaper to use 3 lower current devices than one big one). They will also have a variety of trigger mechanisms for dumping "excess" voltage to earth to regulate to a max of about 13.8 volts.

[smokiesam]

The orginal part for my Dr 250 is $400. I don't want to burn out the stator but i thinking someone making way to much money on this so get any old rectifier regulator change the wiring plugs all should be good I think!! Just not sure enough?

[sootie]

Heres a good read about motorcycle charging systems. May answer your question.
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm
If I owned a motorcycle & found it used an abortion of a charge regulating system like this I would
a. be very worried about what else was designed in to the bike
b. get rid of it as fast as possible

PS: The circuit looks like it would toast regulators & stator windings. What did you say had gone wrong!
If you made the whole charging system a bit more robust, I am sure you could get the bike to run hotter, use extra fuel & produce less output power too!

[bogan]

The orginal part for my Dr 250 is $400. I don't want to burn out the stator but i thinking someone making way to much money on this so get any old rectifier regulator change the wiring plugs all should be good I think!! Just not sure enough?

Can never be 100% sure without trying it, but I got a CBR250 reg/rect in my bros650, and doug has a GT125 (or some shit) in his ZZR600. Wires and wattage is always the way I've gone. Bear in mind with no load the reg/rect has to dissipate all the power in the form of heat, so a stator equiped for big load but without any on it, is the worst case for reg/rects.


If I owned a motorcycle & found it used an abortion of a charge regulating system like this I would
a. be very worried about what else was designed in to the bike
b. get rid of it as fast as possible

PS: The circuit looks like it would toast regulators & stator windings. What did you say had gone wrong!
If you made the whole charging system a bit more robust, I am sure you could get the bike to run hotter, use extra fuel & produce less output power too!

Have you checked what's in your own bike? you might get a surprise. They work fine, not elegant or efficient, but functional.

[Warr]

If you are wanting a replacement RR keep an eye on this trader. His stuff is priced most sensabily !
http://www.trademe.co.nz/stores/cnell-bikers-gear
This is the one in particular that could be a good replacment ...http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/electrics/auction-540670694.htm

[Road kill]

Talk to a somebody that has been doing motorcycle electric's for a few years an you never know your luck.

I set fire to a bike a few years ago when the rectifier shit it's self and I jump started it because I thought the battery was just flat.

Being an older Brittish bike that had a reputation for that sort of thing I asked at my local shop "at that time" if there was a better option and the guy handed me a Japanese unit "at a third the price" that was good for a lot of different bikes an I never had another problem.

[smokiesam]

If you are wanting a replacement RR keep an eye on this trader. His stuff is priced most sensabily !
http://www.trademe.co.nz/stores/cnell-bikers-gear
This is the one in particular that could be a good replacment ...http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/electrics/auction-540670694.htm

I asked him for spec's and he could not give me any. Anyway don't you just love tradeMe found a DR 200 R/R for $25 and should be fine for my DR 250. The reason it died is that I converted most of the lights to LEDs.

[sootie]

Have you checked what's in your own bike? you might get a surprise. They work fine, not elegant or efficient, but functional.

My 1994 Kawasaki uses a proper field controlled alternator charging system pretty much the same as cars of the era used.
It brings the headlights up to full brilliance by 1500rpm, and never wavers above that.
The battery in that bike is original by the way ie 1994 & it still starts the 1100cc bike after sitting for 4 weeks. (absolutely predictable)

My 2009 Piaggio scooter (150cc) is a different story. It is not particularly clever in the charging dept, but better than the circuit offered.
It does struggle to keep the battery charge up with short trips around the city. (also predictable)
It probably does not matter much. The scooter has a crap Chinese battery fitted anyway!

I have actually looked at the circuitry used in a number of bikes (maybe a dozen). I am far from an expert, but so far
Kawasaki bikes have used the best charging electrics by far. The smaller Hondas & Suzukis, particularly off road bikes can be incredibly crude.
By the time you get to Goldwings, they do tend to get it right! (Probably because they have to!)

Sorry Bogan; I seem to be getting quite cantankerous about all the under-engineering I keep coming across in modern imports! :) :)

[bogan]

I asked him for spec's and he could not give me any. Anyway don't you just love tradeMe found a DR 200 R/R for $25 and should be fine for my DR 250. The reason it died is that I converted most of the lights to LEDs.

Make sure its getting good airflow when you put the new one in and it should last longer.


My 1994 Kawasaki uses a proper field controlled alternator charging system pretty much the same as cars of the era used.
It brings the headlights up to full brilliance by 1500rpm, and never wavers above that.
The battery in that bike is original by the way ie 1994 & it still starts the 1100cc bike after sitting for 4 weeks. (absolutely predictable)

My 2009 Piaggio scooter (150cc) is a different story. It is not particularly clever in the charging dept, but better than the circuit offered.
It does struggle to keep the battery charge up with short trips around the city. (also predictable)
It probably does not matter much. The scooter has a crap Chinese battery fitted anyway!

I have actually looked at the circuitry used in a number of bikes (maybe a dozen). I am far from an expert, but so far
Kawasaki bikes have used the best charging electrics by far. The smaller Hondas & Suzukis, particularly off road bikes can be incredibly crude.
By the time you get to Goldwings, they do tend to get it right! (Probably because they have to!)

Sorry Bogan; I seem to be getting quite cantankerous about all the under-engineering I keep coming across in modern imports! :) :)

Just the same as the difference between switchmode and LDO voltage regulation, one is expensive but efficient and good for high power, the other is cheap but inefficient and not suited to high power. Your scooter one struggles cos its a POS scooter and not designed properly, not because they have used the cheaper style reg/rect. All my bikes keep the battery nice and charged, the headlight is on full around 1500rpm too, you just have to make sure the reg-rect has good air-flow. Funny thing about the efficiency, all the inefficient subsystems on the likes of goldwings and your kawasaki probably mean you use more electrical power than those with inefficient reg/rects anyway. Still, doesn't change the fact that with a better designed on I could waste less power than I do now, probably put one on my next bike.

[sootie]

Make sure its getting good airflow when you put the new one in and it should last longer.



Just the same as the difference between switchmode and LDO voltage regulation, one is expensive but efficient and good for high power, the other is cheap but inefficient and not suited to high power. Your scooter one struggles cos its a POS scooter and not designed properly, not because they have used the cheaper style reg/rect. All my bikes keep the battery nice and charged, the headlight is on full around 1500rpm too, you just have to make sure the reg-rect has good air-flow. Funny thing about the efficiency, all the inefficient subsystems on the likes of goldwings and your kawasaki probably mean you use more electrical power than those with inefficient reg/rects anyway. Still, doesn't change the fact that with a better designed on I could waste less power than I do now, probably put one on my next bike.

With respect, I don't think you live in a city. Your bikes almost certainly run a lot of the time at 3000rpm or more. My scooter doesn't - it is a traffic light negotiator & shopping basket!

The power thing is interesting. The crude system I lashed out at used a short circuit to reduce charging. This must add to engine loading & I still think it is real crude!
You may be right however that it does not give much mechanical loading because it is so low powered!
A good field controlled circuit reduces mechanical loading as the battery nears a full charge. What electrics the rider chooses to run is surely a separate issue?

I have a friend with a Goldwing which is festooned with additional safety lighting (mostly incandescent). Amazingly, the machine still manages about the same fuel economy on a trip
as my old Kawasaki. ie around 4.7l/100km at 90 to 110 kph. :laugh:

[Warr]

.............., probably put one on my next bike.
Can you please elaborate ... "put one" .. "one" what ?

[bogan]

With respect, I don't think you live in a city. Your bikes almost certainly run a lot of the time at 3000rpm or more. My scooter doesn't - it is a traffic light negotiator & shopping basket!

The power thing is interesting. The crude system I lashed out at used a short circuit to reduce charging. This must add to engine loading & I still think it is real crude!
You may be right however that it does not give much mechanical loading because it is so low powered!
A good field controlled circuit reduces mechanical loading as the battery nears a full charge. What electrics the rider chooses to run is surely a separate issue?

I have a friend with a Goldwing which is festooned with additional safety lighting (mostly incandescent). Amazingly, the machine still manages about the same fuel economy on a trip
as my old Kawasaki. ie around 4.7l/100km at 90 to 110 kph. :laugh:

That is exactly what a scooter's purpose is though, if they haven't designed the charging system to cope with that, its a POS.

Only some of the electrical loading is riders choice, I think on those bikes they have more advanced charging systems because they use (or at least have the potential to use) too much power for the more crude type, so they would still have a higher electrical load than the crude type.
Yeh it such a minuscule power difference it'll be swamped by other factors for fuel economy.

[bogan]

Can you please elaborate ... "put one" .. "one" what ?

one fandangled high efficiency reg/rect please :wavey:

[pete376403]

If I owned a motorcycle & found it used an abortion of a charge regulating system like this I would
a. be very worried about what else was designed in to the bike
b. get rid of it as fast as possible

PS: The circuit looks like it would toast regulators & stator windings. What did you say had gone wrong!
If you made the whole charging system a bit more robust, I am sure you could get the bike to run hotter, use extra fuel & produce less output power too!

That was how it was done back in the day - the page is from a site dedicated to late 70s and up GS Suzukis, so chances are kawasaki Z1s of the same era used something similar.

GS Suzukis were renowned for having the Jap equivalent of Joe (Prince of darkness) Lucas electrics

It would be nice to think that 40 years of electronic progress have resulted in something better.

[sootie]

That was how it was done back in the day - the page is from a site dedicated to late 70s and up GS Suzukis, so chances are kawasaki Z1s of the same era used something similar.

I don't know about the Z1, but I owned a 1979 KZ400. Everyone warned me that it was a very "economy version" bike put out by Kawasaki, and "dumped" on the NZ market. I was a bit wary of buying it. However it used a proper field controlled 3 phase alternator; the lights had no on/off switch, and you just could not flatten the battery in Ak traffic with any reasonable use that I tried over many years.

My previous bike was a Honda CB360 of about the same year. It used a single phase field controlled alternator which was inadequate. In the end I modified the electrical system with a separate rectifier to drive the lights. This worked fine, but guess which design impressed me more?

You are quite correct about charging systems of the era being crude. The trouble is many of them still are! (including the Italian electronics on my 2009 Piaggio Fly scooter). It really is not rocket science, and the electrical charging system seems like a good way to judge whether a bike manufacturer is focussing on getting the price down by providing crude engineering where most buyers will not pick it up.
(My theory is that the savings are then spent on adverising assuming similar bikes tend to retail at fairly similar prices!)

Incidently, the old OMC outboards (1960 - 70s) had incredibly crude charging systems which sometimes
resulted in burn out of the early CD ignition modules they used. A simple shunt regulator set around 14.1V could save the day here, but another story I guess. :laugh:

[pritch]

Having just recently developed an interest in such matters I came across this:
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html