The California Superbike School has returned to NZ. New website up and running!

[neil_cb125t]

Hi everyone,

Some of you may know that CSS is back in NZ. What most of you wont know is that 90-95% of the students that attend this school are road riders trying to improve their ability in operating a motorcycle. We do operate on Taupo raceway to ensure all participants are in a controlled environment. HOT OFF THE PRESS.... you can be insured while attending this school....STAR INSURANCE have just given our training days a Grade 1 rating, which means if you insure with them that you will be covered while out on the track! (contact them for full t&c's)

Find our new and progressing website here: http://www.californiasuperbikeschool.co.nz/

and face book site here: http://www.facebook.com/#!/CaliforniaSuperbikeSchoolnz?fref=ts

Now who wants to improve their riding......:yes:

[steve_t]

Great news :woohoo:

[sil3nt]

Taupo seems like a much better location. Wonder what the pricing will be like.

[neil_cb125t]

Taupo seems like a much better location. Wonder what the pricing will be like.

Pricing is confirmed at $499.00 per level, one level per day. We really pushed to keep the school as affordable as possible for NZ riders and visitors - Its still the cheapest CSS training ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.....have a look at Euro and Aussie sites to compare.

We are very excited to run these days at Taupo - plenty of accomodation options for anyone taking part and the track it self is one of my favourites.

Any other questions just ask;)

[Deano]

I've noticed an e-mail from you in the inbox at home.......I think my wonderful wife is lining up another birthday present !!

Level 3 here I come......maybe :woohoo:

[GrayWolf]

Hi Neil,
Just a thought,
I AM one of the 'anti track day' brigade, this I will freely admit. Reason's have been discussed in various threads. I do understand and can see the benefits of learning bike control in a 'closed environment' but have always maintained the 'roadcraft' aspect learnt on the road itself.
However, I had a good read of the website as it stands, and I am a little confused... (old and senile) The 'appropriate' gear requirements? You say that most of your students are 'road riders' but really the stipulated gear actually precludes a lot of us. Reason? I wear a lot of textile gear as a choice due to travelling most days (commute) and need it to dry quickly. I do wear/buy quality textile, some of which has leather panels on the 'high friction' areas. I also have pants and jackets that DO zip together.
In reality we are being 'forced' to either buy a one piece suit (rossiwannabe), or go and buy leather gear just to meet this requirement?
Yes we both know leather is the MOST resistant material to friction, but not always designed for 'touring purposes'. So, maybe there could be a little rethinking to allow quality textile, or textile/leather mix 'touring style' apparel?
Zips can and DO burst, so if a 'zipped' two piece leather suit is acceptable, it has as high a chance of zip failure as a textile 2 piece.

[Deano]

Under previous management there was the ability to hire gear, and a bike - not sure if that still stands?

Are you actually thinking of attending (being a track day knocker) ?

[GrayWolf]

Under previous management there was the ability to hire gear, and a bike - not sure if that still stands? Do/did they supply 'fat bastard' size?

Are you actually thinking of attending (being a track day knocker) ?

Hmmmm well now, yes sometime next year I would look at this.... Main reason I track day 'knock' is that I feel too many here tell learners/newbies that track days will 'sort them out'.... As agreed it can very well teach bike control, but not 'roadcraft'.. THAT is your 'mental' survival toolkit, riding skills are the action toolkit.

My new years resolution, IS to book in with Andrew.. (after much 'ready for major ego bashed' preparation) and I would also look at a CSS course or two? It has been too long since I did any training, I have to admit it,,,,:wacko:

[neil_cb125t]

Hi Neil,
Just a thought,
I AM one of the 'anti track day' brigade, this I will freely admit. Reason's have been discussed in various threads. I do understand and can see the benefits of learning bike control in a 'closed environment' but have always maintained the 'roadcraft' aspect learnt on the road itself.
However, I had a good read of the website as it stands, and I am a little confused... (old and senile) The 'appropriate' gear requirements? You say that most of your students are 'road riders' but really the stipulated gear actually precludes a lot of us. Reason? I wear a lot of textile gear as a choice due to travelling most days (commute) and need it to dry quickly. I do wear/buy quality textile, some of which has leather panels on the 'high friction' areas. I also have pants and jackets that DO zip together.
In reality we are being 'forced' to either buy a one piece suit (rossiwannabe), or go and buy leather gear just to meet this requirement?
Yes we both know leather is the MOST resistant material to friction, but not always designed for 'touring purposes'. So, maybe there could be a little rethinking to allow quality textile, or textile/leather mix 'touring style' apparel?
Zips can and DO burst, so if a 'zipped' two piece leather suit is acceptable, it has as high a chance of zip failure as a textile 2 piece.

Hi there!

Yep I here ya, totally understand the whole concept of road craft...and its difference from track and race craft, I spent a year commuting from Kapiti to Wellington in 2010, this was about 4 years after I gave up road riding due to the increasing dangers on the road.

I have asked our directors about the textile isssue - I have seen what our website states but have questioned due to the points that you have raised. Student safety is of course paramount, we do have a limited supply of rental leathers/gear if this is the only thing stopping you from attending....I suppose if the worst was to happen, you fell, at least the damage would be to a hired set of leathers rather than your nice road gear or yourself!!

Textiles are far better now than they ever have been, I will also ask Steve Brouggy CSS Head Australia his thoughts and what the Aussies allow.

Wait out on a response!

Re Road riding, have you had a look at first Twist of the Wrist book? Its heavily around road riding and a riders attention.... Its where Keith Code started the CSS journey.

Any other Q's just ask :-0

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Any plans for a session or two at HD ?
did the last ride day there in feb this year, and had a ball !

[neil_cb125t]

Any plans for a session or two at HD ?
did the last ride day there in feb this year, and had a ball !

Hey there - there are Play days happening at HD yes - email Ash Hare on Ash@shorebuild.co.nz he is administering track days at HD

[neil_cb125t]

I've noticed an e-mail from you in the inbox at home.......I think my wonderful wife is lining up another birthday present !!

Level 3 here I come......maybe :woohoo:

Sweet - Level 3 is mainly about how your body affects the motorcycle, pretty darn useful on the track my Deano....like how can you to tighten your line when your at full lean angle already......yes NEO.... anything is possible.

Hope to see you up there

chap

[Katman]

What most of you wont know is that 90-95% of the students that attend this school are road riders trying to improve their ability in operating a motorcycle.

I'd be more inclined to think that they're hoping to be able to get from A to B faster.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

I'd be more inclined to think that they're hoping to be able to get from A to B faster. by improving the way they operate the bike !:innocent:

[GrayWolf]

by improving the way they operate the bike !:innocent:

You poor deluded fool!!!!! (insert ambulance and 2 smiley's in little white coats here) :doctor:

[Katman]

Keith Code probably has more blood on his hands than any other motorcyclist in history.

[neil_cb125t]

You poor deluded fool!!!!! (insert ambulance and 2 smiley's in little white coats here) :doctor:

Well he does have a point - If you are more confident to go round a bend or section of road faster you will have more mental capacity to react to anything that pops out at you... you don't have to go faster, but you can be safer

[Mort]

Keith Code probably has more blood on his hands than any other motorcyclist in history.

Maybe you should do the CSS course Katman. Perhaps you might just learn something instead of thinking that you know it all - you shit stirring gobshite.

[Katman]

Don't kid yourself man - Keith Code is just making money by bringing roadracing to the masses.

[pritch]

Don't kid yourself man - Keith Code is just making money by bringing roadracing to the masses.

Golly! Such cynicism in one so young. :devil2:

While track days may not have all the answers - if well run they should improve knowledge, confidence, and machine control.

Looking at the cost of some US courses in the Feb issue of Cycle World the prices here aren't too bad either.

[GrayWolf]

Well he does have a point - If you are more confident to go round a bend or section of road faster you will have more mental capacity to react to anything that pops out at you... you don't have to go faster, but you can be safer

Id agree with that 100% Neil, IF the improved riding skill is not just used to 'go faster'.. But I also believe K'man has a valid point, many WILL use it to just go quicker with little/no thought as to speed Vs line of sight etc. What I have 'noticed' frequently with sprotbike riders is a penchant for taking a tighter line round a bend than I was taught to use, and then seem to 'apex' the bend much earlier.

[Katman]

It would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of squids who have smeared themselves across the landscape while faithfully reciting passages from Twist of the Wrist, to those who have come to grief while reciting passages from the Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling.

[BoristheBiter]

It would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of squids who have smeared themselves across the landscape while faithfully reciting passages from Twist of the Wrist, to those who have come to grief while reciting passages from the Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling.

It's not the training but what you do with the training that makes a difference.

But then common sense is just another thing you lack.

[Katman]

It's not the training but what you do with the training that makes a difference.

But then common sense is just another thing you lack.

Yeah, 'cos motorcyclists are known for their dedication for putting track day training towards making them safer.

I may lack common sense but at least I'm not fucking gullible.

[GrayWolf]

It's not the training but what you do with the training that makes a difference.

But then common sense is just another thing you lack.


It would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of squids who have smeared themselves across the landscape while faithfully reciting passages from Twist of the Wrist, to those who have come to grief while reciting passages from the Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling.


Yeah, 'cos motorcyclists are known for their dedication for putting track day training towards making them safer.

I may lack common sense but at least I'm not fucking gullible.

I wonder how many people here (KB) have actually read 'motorcycle roadcraft', compared to those who read 'twist of the wrist' or similar. Also how many have undergone training from either or both camps?
Boris Roadcraft isnt just about 'technical skill'.. a very basic example of what we were taught.... In town traffic with a line of cars stationary and you decide to undertake (SLOWLY) or, in an urban business hours environment.... looking at the line of parked cars to your left, can you see an indicator going? A person sitting in a vehicle? (cold mornings the exhaust steam) which direction are the front wheels pointing? All indicators of a possible threat situation. When 'undertaking' you'd be assessing BOTH lines of traffic in case of a sudden manoeuvre. Really very common sense stuff, but how many here would even give a seconds thought to this? You may be able to stop effectively having been on a CSS course, but the roadcraft one has given you 'advanced knowledge' of the threat, so it's already avoided or compensated for.

[BoristheBiter]

I may lack common sense

Can i Quote you on that.



I wonder how many people here (KB) have actually read 'motorcycle roadcraft', compared to those who read 'twist of the wrist' or similar. Also how many have undergone training from either or both camps?
Boris Roadcraft isnt just about 'technical skill'.. a very basic example of what we were taught.... In town traffic with a line of cars stationary and you decide to undertake (SLOWLY) or, in an urban business hours environment.... looking at the line of parked cars to your left, can you see an indicator going? A person sitting in a vehicle? (cold mornings the exhaust steam) which direction are the front wheels pointing? All indicators of a possible threat situation. When 'undertaking' you'd be assessing BOTH lines of traffic in case of a sudden manoeuvre. Really very common sense stuff, but how many here would even give a seconds thought to this? You may be able to stop effectively h?ving been on a CSS course, but the roadcraft one has given you 'advanced knowledge' of the threat, so it's already avoided or compensated for.

Had to re-read that post as you haven't said anything i don't disagree with other than you have put it in a most patronising way (i'm guessing that was what you intended).

The way I see it is you are in the "anti-track day camp". no matter of discussion will make you change your stance even in the slightest.

I am of the "if it has the chance to make me a better rider/driver then I will give it a go" camp, and in fact one of my mentors is an ex-police bike rider/instructor so you could say I have read both.

Also I am not some young squid that lives for track days, yes I do enjoy them and why not? they are held by well supervised groups that put safety above anything else.
Yep I get it you don't like them and good for you but before you put down anything maybe you and the rest of the Katman wannabes should go out and try them before going postal on anyone that has a differing opinion.

[Katman]

Yep I get it you don't like them and good for you but before you put down anything maybe you and the rest of the Katman wannabes should go out and try them before going postal on anyone that has a differing opinion.

I don't have anything against trackdays. They have the ability to teach useful skills.

However, as I've always said, skills learned on the track should only ever be called upon to get yourself out of trouble.

Sadly, all too often trackdays 'skills' are used as a means to get yourself into trouble.

[GTRMAN]

I don't have anything against trackdays. They have the ability to teach useful skills.

However, as I've always said, skills learned on the track should only ever be called upon to get yourself out of trouble.

Sadly, all too often trackdays 'skills' are used as a means to get yourself into trouble.


I am currently undertaking the IAM rider training program, interestingly one of the guys doing its biggest challenge is unlearning some skills learnt during track training. If you look at track days for learning to better control your motorcycle then they are worth it. The police roadcraft book teaches a system of riding in the road environment. I think the trick is knowing what skill to apply where.

[DEATH_INC.]

I don't know about anyone else, but the road is f*cken scary after riding on the track lots. I go slower out there more than I ever have.

[DEATH_INC.]

IWhat I have 'noticed' frequently with sprotbike riders is a penchant for taking a tighter line round a bend than I was taught to use, and then seem to 'apex' the bend much earlier.
FWIW 2 of the major things CSS teaches is LATE turning in, not early. And they also teach you how to countersteer properly. These 2 things are very well regarded survival skills on the road.

[neil_cb125t]

Some good banter happening on this thread!!

Turning in early is a survival reaction, people falsely believe that turning into a turn early will mean that you will use less lean angle to make it around the turn... this is incorrect, a later turn in straightens the corner out, which also assists the rider to make a later apex. If you apex early how will this effect your projected line on exit, will you run tighter or wider on exit?

To be clear CSS days are NOT track days, each session the student must work on the drill that they has been instructed on in the class room. A student that does not work on the drill during the on track session is pulled in and reminded about what it is we are trying to achieve, its simply bad value for money to go to a training environment and then not carry out the training!! Lastly Students are permitted to use only 1 gear and no brakes (unless required to avoid another rider or the grass) for the first 2 sessions, and that is every student no matter what level. This is to again to assist students to work on a single skill at a time, not trying to fit a skill as they are backing it into the hairpin!:girlfight:

We are all students to something aye - as a coach the one thing I have learnt is I have SOO MUCH MORE TO LEARN and PRACTICE!!!

We have information brochures if anyone would like one:2thumbsup

[neil_cb125t]

I wonder how many people here (KB) have actually read 'motorcycle roadcraft', compared to those who read 'twist of the wrist' or similar. Also how many have undergone training from either or both camps?
Boris Roadcraft isnt just about 'technical skill'.. a very basic example of what we were taught.... In town traffic with a line of cars stationary and you decide to undertake (SLOWLY) or, in an urban business hours environment.... looking at the line of parked cars to your left, can you see an indicator going? A person sitting in a vehicle? (cold mornings the exhaust steam) which direction are the front wheels pointing? All indicators of a possible threat situation. When 'undertaking' you'd be assessing BOTH lines of traffic in case of a sudden manoeuvre. Really very common sense stuff, but how many here would even give a seconds thought to this? You may be able to stop effectively having been on a CSS course, but the roadcraft one has given you 'advanced knowledge' of the threat, so it's already avoided or compensated for.

CSS does not teach braking at any of its levels - would you like an information brochure on what it is we do teach? I can send you one. Id like to know more about the Boris Roadcraft school/course do you have info on it?

cheers

[neil_cb125t]

i don't know about anyone else, but the road is f*cken scary after riding on the track lots. I go slower out there more than i ever have.

totally agree!!

[Berries]

Id like to know more about the Boris Roadcraft school/course do you have info on it?
Where do I start?

[BoristheBiter]

I don't have anything against trackdays. They have the ability to teach useful skills.

However, as I've always said, skills learned on the track should only ever be called upon to get yourself out of trouble.

Sadly, all too often trackdays 'skills' are used as a means to get yourself into trouble.

Bollocks, Is that a quote from the "Katman encyclopedia of urban myths"?
Skills don't get you into trouble the rider does something wrong or reads the road/traffic wrong.The skills learnt are what then gets you out in one piece.


I am currently undertaking the IAM rider training program, interestingly one of the guys doing its biggest challenge is unlearning some skills learnt during track training. If you look at track days for learning to better control your motorcycle then they are worth it. The police roadcraft book teaches a system of riding in the road environment. I think the trick is knowing what skill to apply where.

What skills?
Interested to know as I have a hard time going from dirt back to road as I have a tendency to lean the bike and stay up right.


CSS does not teach braking at any of its levels - would you like an information brochure on what it is we do teach? I can send you one. Id like to know more about the Boris Roadcraft school/course do you have info on it?
cheers

Yes the lack of a comer made me sound much better:hitcher:


Where do I start?

By giving red to Katman and Greywolf for their lack of CSS knowledge and their constant attacks on it.

[SVboy]

Keith Code probably has more blood on his hands than any other motorcyclist in history.

Please back that statement up with some facts and figures.

[BoristheBiter]

What a fucken homo.

:rofl::rofl: There is the witty pointless reply we have come to expect. You're such a loser.

[GrayWolf]

Can i Quote you on that.




Had to re-read that post as you haven't said anything i don't disagree with other than you have put it in a most patronising way (i'm guessing that was what you intended).

The way I see it is you are in the "anti-track day camp". no matter of discussion will make you change your stance even in the slightest.

I am of the "if it has the chance to make me a better rider/driver then I will give it a go" camp, and in fact one of my mentors is an ex-police bike rider/instructor so you could say I have read both.

Also I am not some young squid that lives for track days, yes I do enjoy them and why not? they are held by well supervised groups that put safety above anything else.
Yep I get it you don't like them and good for you but before you put down anything maybe you and the rest of the Katman wannabes should go out and try them before going postal on anyone that has a differing opinion.

if you felt it was written in a patronising tone Boris, then that is your own 'emotional filter' at work, it was NOT written in a patronising manner. I was simply using a very basic example of roadcraft teaching to attempt to open discussion up to the difference between track learnt (physical skill) Vs the '(mental skills)' taught by the Roadcraft manual.
I am 'anti track day' in the manner of it being frequently 'pushed' at newbie's and inexperienced riders, who do not yet even have the basic road skills embedded in their cerebellum. You can be taught every tiny skill possible and be highly adept at them, but if you cant read the road? the skills are worth 'shit'. You'll always be a 'reactive', rather than a 'proactive' rider. Your own point that you are not a young squid and use any/all skills somewhat proves my point.. a high number of 'squids' will never learn skills which they percieve as slowing them down. (making progress as opposed to maximum velocity).

Your reaction that I'm along with others a K'man wannabe? As for asking people to red rep, just because people disagree with you?Really just shows that you are as 'anti' as you accuse us of being.

[GrayWolf]

CSS does not teach braking at any of its levels - would you like an information brochure on what it is we do teach? I can send you one. Id like to know more about the Boris Roadcraft school/course do you have info on it?

cheers

So let me understand this Neil, you teach bike handling skills (cornering etc) but dont teach effective braking techniques for the first 2 sessions? Quote " Lastly Students are permitted to use only 1 gear and no brakes (unless required to avoid another rider or the grass) for the first 2 sessions, and that is every student no matter what level."

And I would also like to know about the Boris roadcraft school/course? Mine was done RAC/ACU in the UK. So yes as I have admitted far too long ago, and I KNOW I've developed some bad habits along those years.

[GrayWolf]

Skills don't get you into trouble the rider does something wrong or reads the road/traffic wrong.The skills learnt are what then gets you out in one piece.
By giving red to Katman and Greywolf for their lack of CSS knowledge and their constant attacks on it.

I havent 'attacked' CSS in any way, if discussing the pro's and con's of various training is attacking it? Then good for you Sonny!!

I'll try to say it again clearly as I have obviously failed in any attempt to put across my reasoning...... As you said above the skills you learn get you OUT of trouble. I would 100% agree with you.. REACTIVE to the situation.
The Roadcraft taught in IAM and by Police riding methods teach you to 'see in advance' the threat your skills get you out of.... so if you see it? You negate the need to get out of it.....You have ALREADY taken CORRECTIVE action.

[neil_cb125t]

So let me understand this Neil, you teach bike handling skills (cornering etc) but dont teach effective braking techniques for the first 2 sessions? Quote " Lastly Students are permitted to use only 1 gear and no brakes (unless required to avoid another rider or the grass) for the first 2 sessions, and that is every student no matter what level."

And I would also like to know about the Boris roadcraft school/course? Mine was done RAC/ACU in the UK. So yes as I have admitted far too long ago, and I KNOW I've developed some bad habits along those years.

Your goal as a rider is to stabilise your motorcycle, the only control that does this is the throttle. Brakes are the control that sets a speed for a corner. CSS removes the riders 'crutch' of over using the brakes to allow them to focus on stabilizing the bike. How does your bike feel when your hard on the brakes?

Braking techniques are not taught by CSS australia, the students use the brakes as much as they feel comfortable or require. in the USA Keith designed and uses a Braking bike that teaches students to be able to recover from a front wheel lock up.

We do agree on one point if your taught on how to spot trouble early, and how to steer your bike out its way effectively then you don't need to brake, in fact it would be the last thing on my mind!!

[GrayWolf]

Your goal as a rider is to stabilise your motorcycle, the only control that does this is the throttle. Brakes are the control that sets a speed for a corner. CSS removes the riders 'crutch' of over using the brakes to allow them to focus on stabilizing the bike. How does your bike feel when your hard on the brakes?

Braking techniques are not taught by CSS australia, the students use the brakes as much as they feel comfortable or require. in the USA Keith designed and uses a Braking bike that teaches students to be able to recover from a front wheel lock up.

We do agree on one point if your taught on how to spot trouble early, and how to steer your bike out its way effectively then you don't need to brake, in fact it would be the last thing on my mind!!

Thanks Neil,
you've explained the rational for not applying brakes. Agreed braking can and does affect a bikes stability. I havent applied 'hard braking' on the MT yet outside of getting a feel of it, but then I tend to not ride in the 'point and squirt' fashion. Big V's tend to respond better to selecting a gear and allow the huge reservoir of torque to do the work.

[Deano]

I've now had enough JD's to respond to this - Katman, get fucked!

All other naysayers, try it before you dis it. Or follow Katman and get fucked.

Some people will always try and go faster and kill themselves or fuck themselves up on the road....best to learn how to do it properly/safely? than to charge in blindly.

:pinch:

[tigertim20]

I have a question regarding hire bikes - it sounds like a good deal, but for those of us at opposite ends of the country, factoring in very long rides, extra accommodation etc as well as fuel could make it prohibitively expensive.

Im wondering what the cost is of a hire bike?

[GrayWolf]

I've now had enough JD's to respond to this - Katman, get fucked!

All other naysayers, try it before you dis it. Or follow Katman and get fucked.

Some people will always try and go faster and kill themselves or fuck themselves up on the road....best to learn how to do it properly/safely? than to charge in blindly.

:pinch:

if this is what drinking JD results in? Thank whatever 'higher power' you choose I only drink Single Malt!

http://s19.postimage.org/y8ws047f3/Double_Face_Palm2.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/y8ws047f3/)

[nzspokes]

This is something I would love to do if funds and time allowed. Its a shame the Acc funding of training has fallen down the wrong path. The courses I did with those were very good.

In saying that im looking forward to track days that are coming up soon. I found that way back when I was racing cars I drove on the roads a lot slower. We will see if the same happens on the bike.

Ignore Katman, if your not getting weekly red reps from him your just not trying.

[roogazza]

There are benefits to both sides of this discusson. Neil mentioned the throttle to stabilise, this is true. But brakes do the same, I use the rear lots too.(bikes of old needed it).
Graywolf, is talking defensive driving and a big part of that is the anticipation of hazards, I understand where he's coming from there too.
During my Police career here in NZ, I was given a job in 76 of introducing a more modern approach to driver training. Up until then they had half pie followed the 'Hendon' driving methods
(Hendon Police driving school England).
I've always applied both arguments, the more ability and knowledge the better, I believe.

[jellywrestler]

half pie mmmmmmmmmm pie, even if it's only half of one...

[slowpoke]

I've always applied both arguments, the more ability and knowledge the better, I believe.

Jeezus, finally some common sense!

Education a bad thing? Fuck me, I thought I'd logged on to NKB (North Korean Biker) for a minute there.

[neil_cb125t]

Thanks Neil,
you've explained the rational for not applying brakes. Agreed braking can and does affect a bikes stability. I havent applied 'hard braking' on the MT yet outside of getting a feel of it, but then I tend to not ride in the 'point and squirt' fashion. Big V's tend to respond better to selecting a gear and allow the huge reservoir of torque to do the work.

Totally - and its better on all things concerned using that torque!

[neil_cb125t]

I have a question regarding hire bikes - it sounds like a good deal, but for those of us at opposite ends of the country, factoring in very long rides, extra accommodation etc as well as fuel could make it prohibitively expensive.

Im wondering what the cost is of a hire bike?

Hey there,

The CSS that was based at Hampton downs did offer hire bikes, this was because suzuki provided the Coach bikes and CSS nz purchased Hire bikes for students in your situation. At this point in time our company has not been provided with Coach bikes so have had to purchase our own coach fleet - meaning we (Black crow promotions) don't have the resources to also purchase bikes for rental.

We REALLY want people like yourself to be able to attend the school, this was one of the reasons we wanted to move away from being locked in to only using Hampton downs. We would love to actually take the school down south for some days down there! it is a hope and something we are working towards.

If your still interested in making the super long trip let me know, I live in Feilding which is 2 hours north of Wellington and have plenty of room for someone to stay whos on the way up! There may even be a way for you to get your bike shipped up to Taupo then you could fly up and meet it there...?

Keep an eye on the facebook page and website because if our bike fleet situation changes it will be announced on there.....Does anybody in taupo want to rent a bike out for a few days:lol:

[BoristheBiter]

I havent 'attacked' CSS in any way, if discussing the pro's and con's of various training is attacking it? Then good for you Sonny!!

I'll try to say it again clearly as I have obviously failed in any attempt to put across my reasoning...... As you said above the skills you learn get you OUT of trouble. I would 100% agree with you.. REACTIVE to the situation.
The Roadcraft taught in IAM and by Police riding methods teach you to 'see in advance' the threat your skills get you out of.... so if you see it? You negate the need to get out of it.....You have ALREADY taken CORRECTIVE action.

You are doing it right now.
You are so blinkered about track days that you just can't see it. (that is the point of Katman Wannabes)
Why do you think I haven't said anything about this IAMs course you're going on about, haven't done it so can't comment on it.
You haven't done CSS but are making massive assumptions about it.

Track days do NOT make you reactive. They make you think about what is ahead of you, that's proactive in my book.
Positioning on the track, can be translated straight back to the road (in fact everything can), for set up for the next corner, Sounds like proactive again.
looking through the corner at where you want to go, More proactive thinking.
All in the knowledge that nothing is coming at you, has crossed over the center line or going to pull out on you (OK that sometimes happens)

Yes defensive driving keeps you alive and out of trouble but that is only part of riding a motorcycle.

FYI about my schooling.
MOT defensive driving,
MOT Advanced defensive driving,
Rally school NZ,
Canterbury motor racing school,
CSS levels 1 & 2
AMCC ART days,
Numerous track days, There is always riders around to help you figure stuff out.
Off road coaching with Chris Birch,
Mentoring with another riders - every time I go out for a ride.

See the last one, I am not so stuck to one line of thinking that I can't take ideas from others.
I don't class myself as too big to learn, try it someday and you might be surprised what you can learn.

[Katman]

Positioning on the track, can be translated straight back to the road (in fact everything can), for set up for the next corner,

Tracks don't usually have potholes, dead animals, gravel, oncoming traffic etc. that have to be factored in when choosing a cornering line.

I'm sure CSS is a great opportunity for people looking to improve their track times - but to present it as some sort of Road Safety Course is, frankly, quite laughable.

[schrodingers cat]

Funny old debate.
I think Neil_CB125T has been quite reasonable and moderate in posts and plenty patient in his replies.
Katman and GreyWolf have been fairly detailed in pointing out what they see as percieved failing in a track-day experience.

I'm not sure that arguing that many people on motorcycles ride like wankers and make poor judgements advances either side of the debate.
The attitude you take to a track day will be largely what you leave with IMHO

[BoristheBiter]

Tracks don't usually have potholes, dead animals, gravel, oncoming traffic etc. that have to be factored in when choosing a cornering line.

I'm sure CSS is a great opportunity for people looking to improve their track times - but to present it as some sort of Road Safety Course is, frankly, quite laughable.

that is because you are a closed minded little man.

[ckai]

I don't know about anyone else, but the road is f*cken scary after riding on the track lots. I go slower out there more than I ever have.

Jesus is it what! Couldn't agree more. And I haven't even done a proper track day! Just a hell of a lot of useless, pointless, "race-craft" training in a closed environment...that makes me go super fast ;)

[neil_cb125t]

Tracks don't usually have potholes, dead animals, gravel, oncoming traffic etc. that have to be factored in when choosing a cornering line.

I'm sure CSS is a great opportunity for people looking to improve their track times - but to present it as some sort of Road Safety Course is, frankly, quite laughable.

I did one of those road safety courses once, to reduce the ammount of time spend on my restricted, we watched some video on traffic watching......for 2 nights... can't say I remember it all.

Most schools or training programs that are "controlled" are in a controlled environment. Im in the RNZAF and the police use our runway (closed for flying ops) at Ohakea for rider training. They focus on a completely different type of training for their officers.

The facts are there is still only 10% of the total amount of students at our schools that are racers or track day goers the rest are road riders that ride to the school to learn how to be more effective at operating their bikes.

Heres a you tube clip from the UK school on level 1 - maybe worth a look? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLEyXAftrpw

Nothing wrong with opinions, better to have one and stick to it than swap it every 5 seconds....

[SVboy]

I am finding that it is the balance of work on the track and the skills that that begins to impart combined with training on the British police riders training
system that hopefully is improving my riding by improving my situational awareness and giving me the skills to begin to deal with emergencies if I dont predict or miss them. A twist of the wrist forced me to consider and think thru my many shortcomings as a rider and how to begin to improve both on the track and the road.Road Rider training is forcing me to consider the dangers of the ride outside the track and has given me good "tools" to use. There are many crossovers such as Codes emphasis on periferal vision and "planning" your path thru a corner that are directly applicable to better roadriding imho. By being blinkered and reactionary Katman is doing his credibility no favours tho it seems GW is starting to open his mind to the possibilities that riding skills can be enhanced in many different environments. Katman, you have yet to provide evidence as to the blood on Mr Codes hands.

[SVboy]

PS-Would LOVE to have the CSS do a course down here.

[Katman]

Katman, you have yet to provide evidence as to the blood on Mr Codes hands.

I'm sure there's a great many squids who have taken Keith Code's derision of "chicken strips" to heart and consequently come to grief in the effort of getting rid of them.

[st00ji]

people who want to ride on the road like its a race track will do so regardless of having being to CSS and the like or not.

for my 10c anything that improves your control over a bike (or car) can only be a good thing.

how individuals choose to apply their skills (or lack of) is just that, individual. blaming training course or creators of for the actions and choices of others is moronic.

frankly i'd have thought anyone willing to spend the money to improve their abilities has already made a start on the right attitude.

edit - would love to get along to one of these things - will have to start saving.

[jellywrestler]

but to present it as some sort of Road Safety Course is, frankly, quite laughable. I disagree on this Katman. As a young fella my skills on the road increased hugely once I went to the race track. It was there I learn't confidence in pushing it further as there were no hazards from lap to lap like differing road conditions, I learn't to try different things and when they went a little far I had found both skill and confidence to put them right. I'll admit that it mean't i could travel faster on the road but the other skills have helped me immensely over the years to cope with the expected and unexpected.
In my 33 years odd of riding I can think of only one occasion where I crashed cause I was going too fast, and come to think of it that was before my track experience and I came into a corner too hard, target fixated and was fucked, that was back in 1983.

[Katman]

frankly i'd have thought anyone willing to spend the money to improve their abilities has already made a start on the right attitude.

Not if the only ability they plan on improving is getting from A to B faster than the last time.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm sure there's a great many squids who have taken Keith Code's derision of "chicken strips" to heart and consequently come to grief in the effort of getting rid of them.

and i bet there are just as many old farts on cruisers that have failed to go around a corner.

Get off your high-horse Katman, you're not the all knowing god you think you are.
There is a reason you are the most ignored person on this site.

[Katman]

Like I said earlier in the thread, it would interesting to compare the accident statistics of those who have done the CSS course with those who have done the IAM one.

Unfortunately, motorcyclists seem to be more readily seduced by the CSS option - presumably because it has the word Superbike in it and it's held on a racetrack.

[BoristheBiter]

Like I said earlier in the thread, it would interesting to compare the accident statistics of those who have done the CSS course with those who have done the IAM one.

Unfortunately, motorcyclists seem to be more readily seduced by the CSS option - presumably because it has the word Superbike in it and it's held on a racetrack.

I would rather know what type of bikes are crashing as I have seen more crusers down lately then sport bikes. That might account for the next two points.
The 40+ riders make up more than the rest of the age groups put together in death/injury accidents.
Also the 1000cc+ bikes make up more than anything else then scooters and under 250.
And as speed only makes up 19% of stats your assumptions sound a little off. yet again.

And what is this Star Wars?
Maybe riders want to better understand how to ride a bike and the thoughts of a world renowned riding school with certified instructors sounds like a good idea.

[SVboy]

I'm sure there's a great many squids who have taken Keith Code's derision of "chicken strips" to heart and consequently come to grief in the effort of getting rid of them.

Prove it Katman-where is the evidence to back up your statement? Your sure? How are you sure?

[300weatherby]

To claim Keith Code (and by proxy all CSS instructors) has "blood on his hands" is funamentally stupid.

An Ar15 was used to murder a number of children and a couple of teachers in a US school recently, by the above logic, the manufacturor of the ammunitition used in that weapon, is in fact responsible, not the nutter pulling the trigger.

I am a road rider that does Akaroa GP, round the block (both passes) and full on touring.
I am a competent racer, racing in a couple of different catagories on different bike types.
I have availed myself of whatever learning, coaching, information is available to be faster and safer.

By learing correct technique, and the ability to apply correct technique under pressure, I will live longer, riding on the road where shit happens without warning.Just as it does on the track.

CSS is not about teaching you to ride in the real world, or to race- it is about teaching you control, of yourself and your machine, by making you understand what is actually happening, how the bad stuff happens, and how to make good stuff happen. CSS gives you the information to set about developing skills, skills that need worked on and practised untill you no longer ride.

Subjective: most road riders have slow reactions, bad cornering technique and bad decision making. This becomes hugely exagerated under pressure. Most road riders will indignantly beat their collective chests in puritanical outrage at that remark, because it is everbody else, not them......

Being fast in the real world does not mean you have a grasp of anything other than the gas.
Being fast on the track, does not translate into being safer than your average road rider.

Slow reactions- paying attention to your surroundings, riding within your ability, develop the habit of an automatically evolving escape plan and you will ecape the unexpected. If you have to think on a conscious level, it is already too late.....Track days will not improve reaction speed, but racing will.

Bad cornering- being taught by people who actually understand all the dynamics at play, combined with acceptance the real world does not play fair and is actually trying to kill you, will improve your chances, and the fun factor that is a series of twisties.Genuine race lines and road lines are different.

Bad decision making- generally, bad decision making occurs under pressure because it all happens too fast and a degree of "freeze" gets in the way- to create time to make better decisions without having to think, refer to "slow reations", and/or, go racing.

Track days give you the chance to genuinely exploes your bikes potential, but generally only racing will teach you to go fast, interestingly, the guys in the "fast group" at Ruapuna track days will usually race past the race guys in the group to gain.........? not sure who they try to show they are "fast" , girlfriend on the pit wall maybe. The race guys wear a dayglo vest, pointed out at rider briefing, follow for a lap or two and you get an idea of the right way around, when you go flying past the race guy because he is too slow for you, maybe you need to front up on the grid and show the rest of us how to catch Stroud.

CSS was great, I knew less than I thought I did, and I had already been racing for a while.
Mainland course was great, new less than I thought, and I have ridden road forever.

Get knowledge, skills, training from anywhere you can, anytime you can, don't rush off to bag someone elses teaching/coaching unless you are in fact, of a higher standard of knowledge, ablity and qualification that they are - and if you are, wright a book and make the movie, I will come.....

[tigertim20]

Not if the only ability they plan on improving is getting from A to B faster than the last time.

using that logic - that course providers are enabling such riding attitudes, why not go back another step and blame manufacturers for building bikes with the abilities they do? or lobby government to ban bikes altogether?

People who have a tendency to ride like a cock on the road developed that tendency LONG before they heard about CSS or similar programs. If your argument is that there are other types of program that assist riders in a more safety oriented manner ten te problem again is that people who want to like like maniacs arent going to be interested in a 'safety based' program anyway. SO I struggle to see exactly what your point is, or what your problem is with rider training days of any sort? Ive done some and found them brilliant - yup they were at a racetrack, but so what? are you suggesting that instead we get a group of 50 riders and drag them around the streets of south auckland in a group while trying to teach them all these skills, instead of doing it first in an environment where the number of external factors can be controlled to enable people to focus purely on the skill being learnt? - the dollar theory in practice.

[GrayWolf]

You are doing it right now.


Track days do NOT make you reactive. They make you think about what is ahead of you, that's proactive in my book.
Positioning on the track, can be translated straight back to the road (in fact everything can), for set up for the next corner, Sounds like proactive again. looking through the corner at where you want to go, More proactive thinking.
All in the knowledge that nothing is coming at you, has crossed over the center line or going to pull out on you (OK that sometimes happens) Exactly the point I have consistently made, on a track its 'SOMETIMES' and you are all going the same direction, on the road it's (most of the time) and even at legal speeds, the closing speed is up to 200kph when approaching, which would leave you needing a fantastically good reaction ability

Yes defensive driving keeps you alive and out of trouble but that is only part of riding a motorcycle. Absolutely 100% agree with that statement, yet you consistently argue against my posts that Defensive situational driving cannot be properly taught on the track. To practice a skill it MUST be applied, so you need to get on road training to practice those 'advanced defensive' skills. Which your own point of 'SOMETIMES' indicates a low possibility of this practice in a track environment.

See the last one, I am not so stuck to one line of thinking that I can't take ideas from others.
I don't class myself as too big to learn, try it someday and you might be surprised what you can learn. Neither do I, and as stated earlier I will look at the CSS course myself, but for me signing up with Andrew T and getting a likely 'severe ego check' is of far higher importance of the two options.


I am finding that it is the balance of work on the track and the skills that that begins to impart combined with training on the British police riders training system that hopefully is improving my riding by improving my situational awareness and giving me the skills to begin to deal with emergencies if I dont predict or miss them................ Katman is doing his credibility no favours tho it seems GW is starting to open his mind to the possibilities that riding skills can be enhanced in many different environments.

SVboy has it correct Boris,,, and its exactly what I said in my post... track days teach the BIKE handling skills, IAM/Police style training teaches Situational knowledge.... That has been My argument all along.

[SVboy]

To claim Keith Code (and by proxy all CSS instructors) has "blood on his hands" is funamentally stupid.

An Ar15 was used to murder a number of children and a couple of teachers in a US school recently, by the above logic, the manufacturor of the ammunitition used in that weapon, is in fact responsible, not the nutter pulling the trigger.

I am a road rider that does Akaroa GP, round the block (both passes) and full on touring.
I am a competent racer, racing in a couple of different catagories on different bike types.
I have availed myself of whatever learning, coaching, information is available to be faster and safer.

By learing correct technique, and the ability to apply correct technique under pressure, I will live longer, riding on the road where shit happens without warning.Just as it does on the track.

CSS is not about teaching you to ride in the real world, or to race- it is about teaching you control, of yourself and your machine, by making you understand what is actually happening, how the bad stuff happens, and how to make good stuff happen. CSS gives you the information to set about developing skills, skills that need worked on and practised untill you no longer ride.

Subjective: most road riders have slow reactions, bad cornering technique and bad decision making. This becomes hugely exagerated under pressure. Most road riders will indignantly beat their collective chests in puritanical outrage at that remark, because it is everbody else, not them......

Being fast in the real world does not mean you have a grasp of anything other than the gas.
Being fast on the track, does not translate into being safer than your average road rider.

Slow reactions- paying attention to your surroundings, riding within your ability, develop the habit of an automatically evolving escape plan and you will ecape the unexpected. If you have to think on a conscious level, it is already too late.....Track days will not improve reaction speed, but racing will.

Bad cornering- being taught by people who actually understand all the dynamics at play, combined with acceptance the real world does not play fair and is actually trying to kill you, will improve your chances, and the fun factor that is a series of twisties.Genuine race lines and road lines are different.

Bad decision making- generally, bad decision making occurs under pressure because it all happens too fast and a degree of "freeze" gets in the way- to create time to make better decisions without having to think, refer to "slow reations", and/or, go racing.

Track days give you the chance to genuinely exploes your bikes potential, but generally only racing will teach you to go fast, interestingly, the guys in the "fast group" at Ruapuna track days will usually race past the race guys in the group to gain.........? not sure who they try to show they are "fast" , girlfriend on the pit wall maybe. The race guys wear a dayglo vest, pointed out at rider briefing, follow for a lap or two and you get an idea of the right way around, when you go flying past the race guy because he is too slow for you, maybe you need to front up on the grid and show the rest of us how to catch Stroud.

CSS was great, I knew less than I thought I did, and I had already been racing for a while.
Mainland course was great, new less than I thought, and I have ridden road forever.

Get knowledge, skills, training from anywhere you can, anytime you can, don't rush off to bag someone elses teaching/coaching unless you are in fact, of a higher standard of knowledge, ablity and qualification that they are - and if you are, wright a book and make the movie, I will come.....

Awesome post

[Katman]

To claim Keith Code (and by proxy all CSS instructors) has "blood on his hands" is funamentally stupid.



I used to wonder where the fixation with wanking on about 'chicken strips' came from on here.

It was only when I sat down and tried to watch one of Keith Code's videos that I realised where it stemmed from.

[SVboy]

[

Unfortunately, motorcyclists seem to be more readily seduced by the CSS option - presumably because it has the word Superbike in it and it's held on a racetrack.[/QUOTE]

Another sweeping statement from Katman that needs evidence of some kind to back it up, hey but keep it up KM, you are only detracting further from whatever validity you thought your original points had.

[Voltaire]

Not if the only ability they plan on improving is getting from A to B faster than the last time.

Done the Superbike School.....
I've got my lap times down quite a bit using the CSS techniques.....there ain't no chicken strips on my tyres..... but the rocker cover has a few scrapes.....but then it is a BMW twin.
My daily rider is a BMW twin too....its got chicken strips.
Booked in for March too.... and an ART day.....

out of interest ...done either of them?

[SVboy]

I used to wonder where the fixation with wanking on about 'chicken strips' came from on here.

It was only when I sat down and tried to watch one of Keith Code's videos that I realised where it stemmed from.

I have watched the original TOTW and the updated TOTW. Cheesy yes-emphasis on loosing chicken strips-no.That is a bizarre interpretation. Both videos are about trying to understand and place repeatable skills to improve cornering. Improved skills in cornering safely are a good thing right KM or are you so stubborn that you cant see this?

[Ocean1]

I have watched the original TOTW and the updated TOTW. Cheesy yes-emphasis on loosing chicken strips-no.That is a bizarre interpretation. Both videos are about trying to understand and place repeatable skills to improve cornering. Improved skills in cornering safely are a good thing right KM or are you so stubborn that you cant see this?

But they missed out on that well proven and most effective of training methods. They failed to abuse the fuck out of complete strangers.

[Katman]

Improved skills in cornering safely are a good thing right KM or are you so stubborn that you cant see this?

I agree entirely.

Improved skills in cornering safety don't mean a lot though if they encourage you to ride in a manner that makes you more likely to have need to call on those skills.

Everyone's 'luck' runs out sometime.

(Or so I'm told).

[jellywrestler]

Everyone's 'luck' runs out sometime.

( I thought you'd spent all your time telling us it wasn't Luck, make up ya mind!

[Katman]

I thought you'd spent all your time telling us it wasn't Luck, make up ya mind!

A tongue in cheek comment Spyda.

Did you miss the line in brackets?

[SVboy]

I and a lot of other riders needed no encouragement from Keith Code to sometimes ride fast. Having some skills,track training and experience help me do that in a manner that is safer to myself and others. My road biased training helps me identify hazards and respond accordingly, not to mention makes me a better judge of when I might be able to push on. Luck? absolutely-and I am quite fatalistic about that. I know this post will fit neatly into the very attitudes and behaviours you rail against, but rather than attack this post, could you please provide the evidence I asked for re your generalisations in several previous posts....

[GTRMAN]

Riding 'the system' as described in the police guide does require a level of ability to control the motorcycle first and foremost. From what I have read here the CSS program teaches the dynamics of riding very well. The IAM program teaches advanced roadcraft, the ability to ride progressively on the road. It looks to me that these can be complimentary programs.

Learn to control the bike, learn to control yourself, learn to know the environment and adjust accordingly.

In all of this learning to control yourself is always going to to be the hardest part.

Bravo CSS, I hope you guys do really well :)

[Deano]

That has been My argument all along.

See that's the problem. Someone posts 'anything' on KB and it turns into a fucking argument. CSS is what it is. Get over it.

[Katman]

See that's the problem. Someone posts 'anything' on KB and it turns into a fucking argument. CSS is what it is. Get over it.

Just putting out another view of it Deano.

Get over that.

[Katman]

See the major failing of this sort of programme is that there is no vetting of riders beforehand.

Some might take from the course skills to make them a safer rider.

Many will only be set on the road as a grenade with a shorter fuse.

[Deano]

Just putting out another view of it Deano.

Get over that.

The record is getting very very old.

[SVboy]

See the major failing of this sort of programme is that there is no vetting of riders beforehand.

Some might take from the course skills to make them a safer rider.

Many will only be set on the road as a grenade with a shorter fuse.

Wow, I have never seen Katman make so many unsubstantiated claims and statements in one thread. Re evidence -put up or..well, you know the rest...

[Katman]

The record is getting very very old.

I ain't getting any younger Deano.

[Kiwi Graham]

You see there are those in this sport/pastime of ours that actually get out there and attempt to do ‘something positive’ for others;

To encourage, mentor, support. I'm talking about the motorcycle clubs providing basic handling courses 1:1 tuition, motorcycle training course such as CSS, ART, IAM. Individuals such as KB mentors and the various 1:1 rider training available here.
The key here is all are focused on improving the skill set required to ride a motorcycle, yes some do it for a living and some do it for free but all have the same intention. Whether the skills learnt are put to good use isn't the point, the point is it is provided with the purpose of making a rider a more competent handler of their machine.

Why use a circuit? Because we can control the learning environment, maximise the number of riders being taught at any one time and have medical attention on hand ‘if’ anything should go wrong (very rarely used I might add).

And then there is those that do nothing but slag off the efforts of the few, flick out one line abusive comments at the tap of a key board but offer absolutely nothing to improve the lot of the developing rider.
There are those that try and those that do the very opposite

Oh the one thing I have seen you praise Steve is the American gymkhana competitions things, personally I think it’s an entertaining few minutes of riding around a load of cones (sort of taking basic handling courses to the extreme) but see little relevance for real life riding on the road. If they rode like that on the road they would become a statistic just as much if someone who spent the day at the circuit and continued to ride at that speed on the road.

Steve, generally you underlying message is a good one relating to safer riding so why not actually do something about it instead of bagging those that actually get of their ass and do!

[Katman]

Steve, generally you underlying message is a good one relating to safer riding so why not actually do something about it instead of bagging those that actually get of their ass and do!

I'm merely pointing out the glitch Graham.

The philosophy behind the IAM system doesn't have a glitch.

[tigertim20]

See the major failing of this sort of programme is that there is no vetting of riders beforehand.

Some might take from the course skills to make them a safer rider.

Many will only be set on the road as a grenade with a shorter fuse.

how the hell will vetting people make any difference? if people WANT to ride like maniacs, they will do so, regardless of whether they have participated in any forms of rider training, be it track or road focused.

As for your second and third lines - you are suggesting that because a few MIGHT misuse some of the skills they learn, that nobody should be allowed to learn them?

For all your posturing about safety I really cant see why you are so hell-bent on insisting that these things are somehow inherently bad? It teaches a skill that increases control - whats the problem?

Really your argument to me seems to be totally invalid, because people who choose to ride like maniacs do exactly that regardless of whether they have participated in any kind of training - and frankly even though neither situation would be ideal, given a choice between a maniac rider with no skills but a love for adrenaline rushes, and a maniac rider who took the time to up-skill, I think Id take the latter as the preferable option.

[Voltaire]

Maybe Katman should change his handle to Patman as he reminds me of Patricia Bartlett.... :lol:
Just a tiresome old scratched record.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Bartlett

[SVboy]

I ain't getting any younger Deano.

and neither are we as wait for you to substantiate your claims. Still...I suppose it will give Mr code a chance to wash the blood off his hands...

[Katman]

Still...I suppose it will give Mr code a chance to wash the blood off his hands...

Hey, I didn't accuse him of murder.

[neil_cb125t]

PS-Would LOVE to have the CSS do a course down here.

AWESOME - we want to take it to Ruapuna.....BADLY!!! its a the plan, but we need the first few days to be a success - then we can take it to the MECA race track down your way

[Berries]

I am not sure what CSS is, but just to lighten the thread here be some Californian superbike skills -

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iMQxuy-zpEA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[GrayWolf]

See that's the problem. Someone posts 'anything' on KB and it turns into a fucking argument. CSS is what it is. Get over it.

Arguement is a process of exchanging ideas and thoughts, not the simple gainsaying and inability to accept and/or discuss the others viewpoint.

Get over that!

[\m/]

I am not sure what CSS is, but just to lighten the thread here be some Californian superbike skills -
Impressive catch at the end.

[Zedder]

Hey, I didn't accuse him of murder.

Sign up for CSS Katman, then do a review on it. Go on, you know you want to.

[neil_cb125t]

I am not sure what CSS is, but just to lighten the thread here be some Californian superbike skills -

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iMQxuy-zpEA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

AWESOME skills shown there - how do you learn that!

[Grant`]

I have done all 4 levels of the superbike school.

Always having done the majority of my riding on the road, I found the superbike school an invaluable tool in improving my riding skills as a rider in general, It taught me a number of things about my riding that I was doing incorrectly and confirmed some of the things I was doing right but wasn't sure of.

levels 1 and 2 would be great for anybody young and old, level 3 is in my eyes more towards a track rider than a road rider (personal opinion) but once completed level 4 is all about working more one on one with an instructor and focusing on your individual style and honing the skills learnt in the 3 levels.

Worth every penny!

[pritch]

Like I said earlier in the thread, it would interesting to compare the accident statistics of those who have done the CSS course with those who have done the IAM one.


No such statistic would be meaningful. CSS are a commercial venture, they are available, and they advertise, they provide their training to the multitudes.

The IAM types are amateurs, they don't advertise. Many (most?) operate at a fairly low activity level, you actually have to go to some trouble to seek them out. They would train only the very few most highly motivated.

Of course, in a perfect world we'd all do both.

[awa355]

I am not sure what CSS is, but just to lighten the thread here be some Californian superbike skills -

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iMQxuy-zpEA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


It's sad to see lovely machines that I will never be able to afford, being wreaked through sheer stupidity by brain dead drongos.

[ckai]

See the major failing of this sort of programme is that there is no vetting of riders beforehand.

Some might take from the course skills to make them a safer rider.

Many will only be set on the road as a grenade with a shorter fuse.

mmm don't think this "vetting" process would be very feasible. Please, enlighten me as you see this being implemented.

Personally, if I see a tosser squid on the road using it as a race track, I think CSS is a perfect course for them. Having done 3 levels, I'm in a great position to say this.

What I like about CSS compared with other track based training, is they actually slow riders down if they think they're going beyond their ability to effectively learn. Happened a couple of times when I've been. Talking to the riders after, they all said they ended up learning a lot more by being pegged back. Funny, I'm always told to go faster :)

What I find interesting is those that have done training on a track say it's one of the best ways to learn. Those that haven't done track based training say it's rubbish, ineffective and can't train for the road. Those that have done both (myself included) say there is a place for both and each is more effective at certain things than the other. Coincidence?

I suppose it's like asking a virgin what sex is like.

Anyway, I only hope by the time we have some coin together that there are still some spots open. Out of all the training and money I've paid, CSS is by far the most effective and valuable.

[neil_cb125t]

mmm don't think this "vetting" process would be very feasible. Please, enlighten me as you see this being implemented.

Personally, if I see a tosser squid on the road using it as a race track, I think CSS is a perfect course for them. Having done 3 levels, I'm in a great position to say this.

What I like about CSS compared with other track based training, is they actually slow riders down if they think they're going beyond their ability to effectively learn. Happened a couple of times when I've been. Talking to the riders after, they all said they ended up learning a lot more by being pegged back. Funny, I'm always told to go faster :)

What I find interesting is those that have done training on a track say it's one of the best ways to learn. Those that haven't done track based training say it's rubbish, ineffective and can't train for the road. Those that have done both (myself included) say there is a place for both and each is more effective at certain things than the other. Coincidence?

I suppose it's like asking a virgin what sex is like.

Anyway, I only hope by the time we have some coin together that there are still some spots open. Out of all the training and money I've paid, CSS is by far the most effective and valuable.


Some good thoughts there - 3 levels done, so your due for a level 4....? do you know the process for a level 4, its a bit different from the 3 instructional levels you've completed (if thats correct) Level 4 is purely consultive, you have an off track coach AND on track coaches assigned to you were we tailor the whole day to what you need or want to improve. Instead of riding 5 sessions, you can ride up to 12 (I think) all for the same price as any other level :banana:

[ckai]

Some good thoughts there - 3 levels done, so your due for a level 4....? do you know the process for a level 4, its a bit different from the 3 instructional levels you've completed (if thats correct) Level 4 is purely consultive, you have an off track coach AND on track coaches assigned to you were we tailor the whole day to what you need or want to improve. Instead of riding 5 sessions, you can ride up to 12 (I think) all for the same price as any other level :banana:

Yeah we touched on it during my level 3. I know level 4 is gonna be the most benefit to me and I'm gonna be SHAGGED from all the sessions :D wanting to get the wife on first though so she can at least understand why I rave on about it all the time :)

If she doesn't feel she's ready by the time we have the money together, I'm in with a big arse grin!

Sent from one of those touch do-hickies

[Katman]

I found the superbike school an invaluable tool in improving my riding skills as a rider in general,

That's somewhat like saying "I shall only use this Cloak of Invisibility to perform good deeds" - all-the-while knowing that your first stop is going to be the ladies changing rooms.

[nzspokes]

Clock of Invisibility

Drinking a bit early today? :nya:

[Katman]

Drinking a bit early today? :nya:

Never before 10 o'cloak.

[Voltaire]

Patricia Bartlett man
See the major failing of this sort of programme is that there is no vetting of riders beforehand.

Its good you know so much about it without ever having done it...

The coach does an appraisal of your riding by following you around the track..with feedback..then there are classroom sessions.....more riding...etc.

If guys want to use the road as a race track your tiresome pontificating wont make one ioata of difference. :yawn:

[Grant`]

That's somewhat like saying "I shall only use this Cloak of Invisibility to perform good deeds" - all-the-while knowing that your first stop is going to be the ladies changing rooms.

If you want to step into the ladies changing room then good for you Harry :girlfight:

I would prefer to continue to improve my riding skills and if I learn something new at the superbike school by attending then what is honestly so wrong with that?

Not even sure why I bothered posting a response, waste of time you have your opinion and on so many subjects, there never seems to be any room to accommodate another point of view, so as your were. :brick:

[Katman]

If you want to step into the ladies changing room then good for you Harry :girlfight:

I would prefer to continue to improve my riding skills and if I learn something new at the superbike school by attending then what is honestly so wrong with that?

Not even sure why I bothered posting a response, waste of time you have your opinion and on so many subjects, there never seems to be any room to accommodate another point of view, so as your were. :brick:

You're a sensitive wee thing, aren't you?

[SVboy]

That's somewhat like saying "I shall only use this Cloak of Invisibility to perform good deeds" - all-the-while knowing that your first stop is going to be the ladies changing rooms.

So your magic Katman powers enable you to predict this riders riding behaviour as a result of doing CSS? Dont think so fella. Face it Katman,your usual style is belligerent[sp], but usually based in fact. In this instance you have been called out to prove your position. Your witty one liners are clever but not evidence.

[Katman]

So your magic Katman powers enable you to predict this riders riding behaviour as a result of doing CSS? Dont think so fella. Face it Katman,your usual style is belligerent[sp], but usually based in fact. In this instance you have been called out to prove your position. Your witty one liners are clever but not evidence.

Dude, I think presenting the CSS as some sort of road safety initiative is laughable.

You, on the other hand, clearly think it's an entirely appropriate presentation.

That's the beauty of these internet thingies - we all get to have an opinion.

[onearmedbandit]

AWESOME - we want to take it to Ruapuna.....BADLY!!! its a the plan, but we need the first few days to be a success - then we can take it to the MECA race track down your way

I'll be keen. Then I can use my new skills to get me and my invisibility cloak down to the woman's changing rooms quicker.

But seriously, I'd be keen.

[quickbuck]

What I have 'noticed' frequently with sprotbike riders is a penchant for taking a tighter line round a bend than I was taught to use, and then seem to 'apex' the bend much earlier.
Then they are doing it wrong, and definitely were not a student of mine!!!!!
If they were, they paid a lot of money on a ProRider Course to ignore Karel telling them this will be a very fast way of getting killed.

Remember there is a WORLD of difference between turning up to a track to do some sweet laps and a Road Based skills course... that just happens to be held at a track.
ProRider frequently hold our level 2 courses on the road, as the content is applicable to that environment.
Level 1 courses are at a track so we have all the students in one place, and we don't have the variable of the public.
This means more controllable constants.

As you were...

Sorry to hijack the CSS Thread Neil, I just had to say something....

[neil_cb125t]

Then they are doing it wrong, and definitely were not a student of mine!!!!!
If they were, they paid a lot of money on a ProRider Course to ignore Karel telling them this will be a very fast way of getting killed.

Remember there is a WORLD of difference between turning up to a track to do some sweet laps and a Road Based skills course... that just happens to be held at a track.
ProRider frequently hold our level 2 courses on the road, as the content is applicable to that environment.
Level 1 courses are at a track so we have all the students in one place, and we don't have the variable of the public.
This means more controllable constants.

As you were...

Sorry to hijack the CSS Thread Neil, I just had to say something....

All rider training is valuable - whens the next pro riders at Manny, I should really go now I have a bike up and going

[quickbuck]

All rider training is valuable - whens the next pro riders at Manny, I should really go now I have a bike up and going

True that... Never meet a rider who was over trained....

Due to the way the ACC funding works, and with ProRider getting their courses subsidised for people north of Turangi, we don't plan a course for Manfeild (or south of Turangi) any time soon.
However Hampton Downs and Taupo are coming up, but as a resident of south of Turangi you will not get the ACC Subsidy.

It is still awesome value though.

Check out http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-coaching.php?page=97

(for the full site click on the ProRider logo in my sig).

[Grant`]

Dude, I think presenting the CSS as some sort of road safety initiative is laughable.



What is the CSS school then if not a training tool? If being able to negotiate a motorcycle around a corner is not consider part of road safety what is?

[MadDuck]

Due to the way the ACC funding works, and with ProRider getting their courses subsidised for people north of Turangi, we don't plan a course for Manfeild (or south of Turangi) any time soon.
However Hampton Downs and Taupo are coming up, but as a resident of south of Turangi you will not get the ACC Subsidy.

LOL! That seems like such a fair and well thought out system from ACC. Perhaps you could respond in the thread relating to ACC training not the CSS debate?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/154339-ACC-training-providers-announced

[quickbuck]

LOL! That seems like such a fair and well thought out system from ACC. Perhaps you could respond in the thread relating to ACC training not the CSS debate?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/154339-ACC-training-providers-announced

Thanks for pointing me in that direction... Never knew of the thread.
I usually just hang out in racing, and haven't been on for ages due to real racing, and Christmas ;)

[GrayWolf]

Then they are doing it wrong, and definitely were not a student of mine!!!!!
If they were, they paid a lot of money on a ProRider Course to ignore Karel telling them this will be a very fast way of getting killed.

Remember there is a WORLD of difference between turning up to a track to do some sweet laps and a Road Based skills course... that just happens to be held at a track.
ProRider frequently hold our level 2 courses on the road, as the content is applicable to that environment.
Level 1 courses are at a track so we have all the students in one place, and we don't have the variable of the public.
This means more controllable constants.



Actually nowhere in that post did I allude, insinuate or comment that what I have 'noticed' and/or experienced (as in being UNDERTAKEN by a sprotbike rider over the Taka's while riding my FJ12, taken a wider line entering some corners and been 'undercut' on a few occasions on both the FJ and ZZR) was in any way directed at training they may or may not have received by any group/person or organisation......... neither was I insinuating that when I have followed some riders on bikes (mainly sprotbikes as these seem to be the predominant choice) and they have taken a far tighter line than I have, that it was in any way the direct result of any aforementioned training groups/organisations or individuals.
it is what I have noticed on several occasions, and I commented on it, period!

As you were!

[quickbuck]

Actually nowhere in that post did I allude, insinuate or comment that what I have 'noticed' and/or experienced (as in being UNDERTAKEN by a sprotbike rider over the Taka's while riding my FJ12, taken a wider line entering some corners and been 'undercut' on a few occasions on both the FJ and ZZR) was in any way directed at training they may or may not have received by any group/person or organisation......... neither was I insinuating that when I have followed some riders on bikes (mainly sprotbikes as these seem to be the predominant choice) and they have taken a far tighter line than I have, that it was in any way the direct result of any aforementioned training groups/organisations or individuals.
it is what I have noticed on several occasions, and I commented on it, period!

As you were!

Nice disclaimer.... however it did start to sound like Training on a Race Track was getting blurred with Track Days in this thread.
Taking the whole thread (up to that post) into context, that i the impression I got, so I figure there must be others out there who got the same impression.

Just want to keep the record straight.

If the riders are leaving their turning into the corner until they can see the exit of the corner, and exiting it about the middle of the lane, then they are doing fine.
They may well be able to "under cut" the exit line of a big bike that has not been turned so quickly*... That is my interpretation of an under-cut.

Now if they are "undertaking", then I would choose not to ride on the road with such people... and quite frankly give them a serve. It is rude and dangerous.
On a race track during a RACE it is fine, but then we have 11 metres to play with! Not 3!

Incidentally during a training day there is no passing into or on the corners AT ALL!

* Note: There is a difference between turning quickly, and turning a bike that is going quickly...

[ckai]

If you want to step into the ladies changing room then good for you Harry :girlfight:


Why, in my head, did this sound like that ginga dude from the Harry Potter movies? Come to think of it, invisibility cloaks...Harry...you two and closest Pottheads aren't ya???

:)

[R-Soul]

It would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of squids who have smeared themselves across the landscape while faithfully reciting passages from Twist of the Wrist, to those who have come to grief while reciting passages from the Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling.

there is of coure teh argument that thioose who are reckless enough to ride too fast were going to do that anyway - now they are just doing it with better control and LESS likelihood of killing themselves or others. roadcarft teaches you how to think. TOTW teaches how to be in the right position on the bike to be able to control it better for any eventuality.

Two sides of the same coin.

[Petrolic]

For those interested in accomodation places, I rang suncourt hotel and a studio is $140 base rate. Book thru Hotels.com and not only is it $124 but free wi fi lake view pool and spa.has in house Bar retsurant.

[Reckless]

Thats me and the bike ready to go :)
Decided put it on the ute rather then ride down in the wet :(

[bosslady]

I'd love to do CSS Level 1. I see mention of IAM but they said I couldn't join or do anything with them yet for quite some time whereas it seems I'd be allowed to go to CSS. Unfortunately it's a bit out of my $ capabilities. One day maybe...

[pritch]

When you get that CBR600 would be about the right time. :whistle:

Oh, and about the IAM, now might be a good time to read their book - if you haven't already.

[bosslady]

When you get that CBR600 would be about the right time. :whistle:

Oh, and about the IAM, now might be a good time to read their book - if you haven't already.
Didn't know they had a book. Have twist of the wrist one and two but I haven't read either yet. Fricking hate reading shit.

[FJRider]

Have twist of the wrist one and two but I haven't read either yet. Fricking hate reading shit.

I'm waiting for the movie to come out as well ... :pinch:

[pritch]

Didn't know they had a book. Have twist of the wrist one and two but I haven't read either yet. Fricking hate reading shit.

Well this argument has been thrashed to death on KB previously, but at the risk of firing it up again.

You have been accumulating practical experience at a fairly rapid rate and it is probably appropriate that you should have some theory to go with it. And here comes the controversial bit: IMHO there are more appropriate books for you to read than ToTW. Keith Code would be more relevant when you get that 600 sprotbike.

The "Motorcycle Roadcraft" book is probably more realistic at this stage, it's smaller, and has colour pictures.:whistle:
I can't give you one, I've given two away already. (With thanks to the kind KBer who supplied the second one.)

It isn't expensive and you can get it freight free here:

http://www.bookdepository.com/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-1996-Phillip-Coyne/9780113411436

[bosslady]

Well this argument has been thrashed to death on KB previously, but at the risk of firing it up again.

You have been accumulating practical experience at a fairly rapid rate and it is probably appropriate that you should have some theory to go with it. And here comes the controversial bit: IMHO there are more appropriate books for you to read than ToTW. Keith Code would be more relevant when you get that 600 sprotbike.

The "Motorcycle Roadcraft" book is probably more realistic at this stage, it's smaller, and has colour pictures.:whistle:
I can't give you one, I've given two away already. (With thanks to the kind KBer who supplied the second one.)

It isn't expensive and you can get it freight free here:

http://www.bookdepository.com/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-1996-Phillip-Coyne/9780113411436
Honestly I just don't know that id read it. I haven't read a book in years!

[Katman]

It isn't expensive and you can get it freight free here:

http://www.bookdepository.com/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-1996-Phillip-Coyne/9780113411436

I imagine both have much the same infomation but I believe this one is the latest version.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Handbook-Motorcycling/dp/011341143X

Just got my copy the other day.

[pritch]

I imagine both have much the same infomation but I believe this one is the latest version.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Handbook-Motorcycling/dp/011341143X

Just got my copy the other day.

Yeah, the two I had were like that. Amazon charges freight though, the Book Depository doesn't.

[GTRMAN]

I imagine both have much the same infomation but I believe this one is the latest version.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Handbook-Motorcycling/dp/011341143X

Just got my copy the other day.


Great book, I would suggest the IAM guide to being a better rider to start with, same concepts but a little easier to digest.

Both of these are available from www.iam.org.uk

[ckai]

I'd love to do CSS Level 1. I see mention of IAM but they said I couldn't join or do anything with them yet for quite some time whereas it seems I'd be allowed to go to CSS. Unfortunately it's a bit out of my $ capabilities. One day maybe...

November's a few months away for saving ;-)






I'm waiting for the movie to come out as well ... :pinch:

Already is. Got it. Cheesy as hell. Beats reading.

[bosslady]

November's a few months away for saving ;-)







Already is. Got it. Cheesy as hell. Beats reading.

it sure is, a few months away I mean, they might laugh if I turned up on my bike though ;)

[ckai]

it sure is, a few months away I mean, they might laugh if I turned up on my bike though ;)

Well, we gotta laugh at something :-) you could learn just as much on a scooter. In fact, I'd love to see someone carving around on a scooter :cool:

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 2

[Xsannz]

I'm waiting for the movie to come out as well ... :pinch:

TWOTW is a movie you can download it...

they mode both books into one movie

i have a copy somwhere

[GTRMAN]

Honestly I just don't know that id read it. I haven't read a book in years!

Maybe it's time to make a change then...

[Voltaire]

I did level 3 last week, my old BMW track bike got a flat and due to my lack of prep I had no spare tube.....I did however have a 38 year old BMW in the back of the van I had bought sight unseen the previous day........ t'was a fun day on that.....:yes:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/R90attrack_zpsac5c409c.jpg
Any bike will do as its skills you are learning. I found the BMW handled a lot better using CSS body positioning
Guy in my group was on a very very cruiser Harley.....he said it was good for him. Money well spent, need to book level 4 :woohoo:

[BoristheBiter]

it sure is, a few months away I mean, they might laugh if I turned up on my bike though ;)

I would doubt that as it is about how to ride a bike not want bike you are on.

Regardless of what Katman and the Katman arse licking brigade think it has nothing to do with going fast but how to smoothly control your bike, regardless of what you are riding.

And besides you seemed to get around Taupo pretty good last week.

[bosslady]

I would doubt that as it is about how to ride a bike not want bike you are on.

Regardless of what Katman and the Katman arse licking brigade think it has nothing to do with going fast but how to smoothly control your bike, regardless of what you are riding.

And besides you seemed to get around Taupo pretty good last week.

Confused. Have I met you already? :sweatdrop

[BoristheBiter]

Confused. Have I met you already? :sweatdrop

Not formally so no need to panic.
You were with the other L's angles but it was after you posted your pics that i guessed who you were.

[bosslady]

Not formally so no need to panic.
You were with the other L's angles but it was after you posted your pics that i guessed who you were.

ohhh ok. I was only with one other L plater

[ckai]

I did level 3 last week, my old BMW track bike got a flat and due to my lack of prep I had no spare tube.....I did however have a 38 year old BMW in the back of the van I had bought sight unseen the previous day........ t'was a fun day on that.....:yes:

Any bike will do as its skills you are learning. I found the BMW handled a lot better using CSS body positioning
Guy in my group was on a very very cruiser Harley.....he said it was good for him. Money well spent, need to book level 4 :woohoo:

To be honest, doing level 3 on the Daytona was fun but doing it on a old school bike would just be the cats PJ's. I'm looking at booking my level 4 in for the November in-take although I'll probably sacrifice that to get my wife on board with her level 1.