Sticky Tar Day

[speeding_ant]

Just because the road is hot doesn't mean you have consistent traction, avoid the pools of black tar. Complete loss of traction around top apex of corner. Managed to hold onto it, got a little hairy though.

Live you learn I guess. :ride:

Just an idea, a great sticky would be some photos highlighting which surfaces can be difficult to deal with in certain weather conditions.

[\m/]

Just because the road is hot doesn't mean you have consistent traction, avoid the pools of black tar. Complete loss of traction around top apex of corner. Managed to hold onto it, got a little hairy though.

Live you learn I guess. :ride:

Just an idea, a great sticky would be some photos highlighting which surfaces can be difficult to deal with in certain weather conditions.
If you think bare tar is bad, wait till you go through a patch of cowshit on a frosty morning.:eek5:

[speeding_ant]

Fair call :)

[curly]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/108062-Wet-tar-shiny-tar-sticky-tar

[Grizzo]

Melted tar = Sphincter biting hole in seat.

[scumdog]

I was in Aussie over Xmas, 45C or so, NO melted tar on the roads.

Why the Eff can't Kiwi roads be the same???

[Zedder]

A few things about significant road bleeding: Firstly, please report it to NZTA or a local authority. It can be corrected easily enough in the short term.

The choice of bitumen (not tar, it's illegal) binder is very important in road pavement construction. Temperature at site is a critical factor and NZ roads have different binder types to address the varying heat ranges.

So, in Oz because of the higher temperatures, different binder types are used. If necessary, the use of high pressure water cutters to flush off bleeding and refresh the road surface is used. Watercutting has been trialled here as well.

[Ocean1]

If necessary, the use of high pressure water cutters to flush off bleeding and refresh the road surface is used. Watercutting has been trialled here as well.

Do I get to rabbit on about the ol' de-slicker MKII again?

[Gremlin]

I was in Aussie over Xmas, 45C or so, NO melted tar on the roads.

Why the Eff can't Kiwi roads be the same???
Don't worry about that. The South Island workers do a better job than the North Island. Smoother joins between surfaces, no melting and probably higher temperatures.

Could we borrow yours some time? We've had newly resealed roads falling apart at 10am...

[scumdog]

So, in Oz because of the higher temperatures, different binder types are used. If necessary, the use of high pressure water cutters to flush off bleeding and refresh the road surface is used. Watercutting has been trialled here as well.

Well send some of that binder here!:angry2:

[scumdog]

A few things about significant road bleeding: Firstly, please report it to NZTA or a local authority. It can be corrected easily enough in the short term.

.

A shame we find out after the first 3-4 have cart-wheeled off the wet road after hitting the bleed...:pinch:

[ellipsis]

Why the Eff can't Kiwi roads be the same???


...cheap chinese tar made in india i 'spose..

[James Deuce]

A few things about significant road bleeding: Firstly, please report it to NZTA or a local authority. It can be corrected easily enough in the short term.



Why? So they can spread some grit and pea gravel around and make it worse? Haven't seen a decent repair in some 30 years now and call bullshit on the quality of bitumen and binders used now. I'm picking there's one bulk store per region with one grade of bitumen and varying quantities of turps added depending on how far it has to be transported. Every repair I've seen of late has decreased traction, created a significant bump and eventually bleeds over the bleed it was supposed to repair.

[Zedder]

Do I get to rabbit on about the ol' de-slicker MKII again?

Yeah, go on.

[Zedder]

A shame we find out after the first 3-4 have cart-wheeled off the wet road after hitting the bleed...:pinch:

Apologies, my time machine is in for repairs.

[Zedder]

Why? So they can spread some grit and pea gravel around and make it worse? Haven't seen a decent repair in some 30 years now and call bullshit on the quality of bitumen and binders used now. I'm picking there's one bulk store per region with one grade of bitumen and varying quantities of turps added depending on how far it has to be transported. Every repair I've seen of late has decreased traction, created a significant bump and eventually bleeds over the bleed it was supposed to repair.

What do you suggest then?

[scumdog]

What do you suggest then?

Find out what they use in Alice Springs, Las Vegas and Death Valley.

And use that stuff.

Running tar at 23 degrees is crap, what are they using in NZ? - chewing gum???:crazy:

[Zedder]

Find out what they use in Alice Springs, Las Vegas and Death Valley.

And use that stuff.

Running tar at 23 degrees is crap, what are they using in NZ? - chewing gum???:crazy:

The difference between repair needs and year round needs is quite large SD.

[Ocean1]

Yeah, go on.

Was a machine the old MOW built in the late 60's. Had a stainless cowl dangled off the back of a truck, with 6 kerosine burners underneath. The trick was to rock on up to a baldy bit of road and burn the bitumen off the top, exposing the original stones underneath. Worked a treat.

Then some arsehole invented ecology. Which apparently meant you shouldn't make big fuckoff black clouds that blot out the sun for hundreds of kilometres and could be seen from several counties away.

Bastards.


Find out what they use in Alice Springs, Las Vegas and Death Valley.

And use that stuff.

Running tar at 23 degrees is crap, what are they using in NZ? - chewing gum???:crazy:

Yes, there's no doubt it can be done properly. I strongly suspect the appropriate standards do, in fact represent a fairly good description of how to do it properly. Where the problem probably lies is in making sure the job actually IS done to that standard. I can see how that's more difficult when you've actually go nobody who's responsible for that nowdays where you've got a bunch of contractors doing the job, as opposed to the good old days when the MOW did it all.

[James Deuce]

What do you suggest then?
Build it properly in the first place and then maintain it instead of just ceaselessly patching it. It's ancient history now, but working on MoW roading gangs as a kid does give me an appreciation of the differences between a "proper" repair job and the lowest bid practices used now.

Bleeding tar is easier to see than grit and pea gravel. Leave it bleeding until you can fix it properly.

[scumdog]

The difference between repair needs and year round needs is quite large SD.


Could we not have 'year round needs' that negated repair needs?

[James Deuce]

Could we not have 'year round needs' that negated repair needs?
Like we used to.

[scumdog]

Like we used to.

That's 'use to' James...:doh:

[Ocean1]

That's 'use to' James...:doh:

JD: one
SD: zip

[Zedder]

Was a machine the old MOW built in the late 60's. Had a stainless cowl dangled off the back of a truck, with 6 kerosine burners underneath. The trick was to rock on up to a baldy bit of road and burn the bitumen off the top, exposing the original stones underneath. Worked a treat.

Then some arsehole invented ecology. Which apparently meant you shouldn't make big fuckoff black clouds that blot out the sun for hundreds of kilometres and could be seen from several counties away.

Bastards.



Yes, there's no doubt it can be done properly. I strongly suspect the appropriate standards do, in fact represent a fairly good description of how to do it properly. Where the problem probably lies is in making sure the job actually IS done to that standard. I can see how that's more difficult when you've actually go nobody who's responsible for that nowdays where you've got a bunch of contractors doing the job, as opposed to the good old days when the MOW did it all.

There's some truth in what you wrote about ecology. As I wrote earlier, no tar is used nowdays due to environmental factors and watercutting has taken the place of the old burner truck.

Yes, NZTA does have a set of standards, which if not adherred to, cost roading companies bucket loads of money. In order to get paid, an engineer has to sign the job off, it's guaranteed for a certain time and contractors don't get paid to fix stuff ups. That's how it was a few years ago anyway.

[scumdog]

JD: one
SD: zip

Really???:wacko::eek5:

[Ocean1]

There's some truth in what you wrote about ecology. As I wrote earlier, no tar is used nowdays due to environmental factors and watercutting has taken the place of the old burner truck.

I believe what's not used nowadays is coal-tar. That's because it's a byproduct of coal gasification, and we don't make domestic gas that way any more. But yes, it raised the pourpoint of bitumen.


Yes, NZTA does have a set of standards, which if not adherred to, cost roading companies bucket loads of money. In order to get paid, an engineer has to sign the job off, it's guaranteed for a certain time and contractors don't get paid to fix stuff ups. That's how it was a few years ago anyway.

Yeah, but contractors make their living cutting corners, they're just better at the game they play with the council. I actually think the contract costing structure is such that they cut costs or die, I've just heard of another local contractor that's had enough, he's gettin g out of the business, can't make it pay.

[Zedder]

I believe what's not used nowadays is coal-tar. That's because it's a byproduct of coal gasification, and we don't make domestic gas that way any more. But yes, it raised the pourpoint of bitumen.



Yeah, but contractors make their living cutting corners, they're just better at the game they play with the council. I actually think the contract costing structure is such that they cut costs or die, I've just heard of another local contractor that's had enough, he's gettin g out of the business, can't make it pay.

Yep, mention tar/coal-tar to a greenie and they freak out but it was really good for roading. Interestingly enough, bitumin is meant to be stable at 30 degrees C.

I don't know of any corner cutting personally but there are actually other causes of road pavement failure, it's not just bitumin going wrong. However, because it's the "glue" it is very important. I

[Daffyd]

Really???:wacko::eek5:

'fraid so.

[unstuck]

Sure was some sticky tar around yesterday, 27 degrees at 10pm last night. The country needs to win lotto to get good roads. Money is the only thing that is going to fix our roads and shitloads of it, but unless we all want to pay a hell of a lot more taxes or something, it aint gonna happen. We are just too small a country to spend the money that needs to be spent.:Punk:

[Zedder]

Sure was some sticky tar around yesterday, 27 degrees at 10pm last night. The country needs to win lotto to get good roads. Money is the only thing that is going to fix our roads and shitloads of it, but unless we all want to pay a hell of a lot more taxes or something, it aint gonna happen. We are just too small a country to spend the money that needs to be spent.:Punk:

For the money, bitumin hotmix and chipseal road pavements do a very good job. The challenges of providing road paving that works in all environments including seismic zones are many. However, there are advances in roading methods being trialled here regularly.

Sure, NZ could spend the big bucks necessary to get "the best roads" but it makes more economical sense to do it the current way. Don't get the idea our road making systems are any worse than overseas though.

[Ocean1]

Money is the only thing that is going to fix our roads and shitloads of it, but unless we all want to pay a hell of a lot more taxes or something, it aint gonna happen. We are just too small a country to spend the money that needs to be spent.:Punk:

We already pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

And how come the South Island's roads are far better than tha North's?

[unstuck]

We already pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

And how come the South Island's roads are far better than tha North's?

We have all the gravel and rock and a better base.;)

[george formby]

Trying to get the bloody stuff off my pips is what really rips my nightie:mad:

[Daffyd]

We already pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

And how come the South Island's roads are far better than tha North's?

The South Island doesn't have the traffic volume that causes all the damage.

[Daffyd]

Another related thing that pisses me off is they put up "Slippery When Wet" signs, and then, later, much later, when they finally repair the problem they leave the signs up permanently.

Same thing when re-aligning bends. When they sealed the road through the Catlins they re-aligned a lot of corners and left all the old advisory signs up.

[miSTa]

Another related thing that pisses me off is they put up "Slippery When Wet" signs, and then, later, much later, when they finally repair the problem they leave the signs up permanently.

Same thing when re-aligning bends. When they sealed the road through the Catlins they re-aligned a lot of corners and left all the old advisory signs up.
Unless the "Slippery When Wet" sign is the fix, seems to be.

[Zedder]

We already pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

And how come the South Island's roads are far better than tha North's?

In general, the roads are "better" in the South Island because: The river gravels that are predominantly used for road aggregates there are very good. Also, the temperature range is wider and the methodology of pavement construction is altered to suit.

[unstuck]

The South Island doesn't have the traffic volume that causes all the damage.

I have noticed quite a decline in some of our roads in the last 20yrs due to milk tankers, those buggers are hard on roads.:yes:

[Road kill]

I have noticed quite a decline in some of our roads in the last 20yrs due to milk tankers, those buggers are hard on roads.:yes:


Hmmm,,,More like about 25 years,,,,but we had Milk tankers before then anyway.

What really happened was that around 1985 local councils took over the responsibility for their local roads rather than having one or two large and very competant companys looking after the whole country.

From there on the councils started contrating out to the cheapest bidder and things steadily went down hill as all these small roading companys started appearing.

I guess there were also environment standards that effected change as well but from my point of view "25 years of always accepting the lowest bid for the job has played the biggist part in it.

Around Franklin where I live we have road works happening and for the first "TWO OR THREE DAYS" they look ok,,,,but within a week you start to see the strips of tar appearing,,and it's not tar bled yet,,it's just the top surface failing,,,,then comes summer.

Then the next year their back doing it again.

[scumdog]

Trying to get the bloody stuff off my pips is what really rips my nightie:mad:

You an Inspector or something with all them pips?:eek5:

And how does the tar get onto them??:wacko:

[scumdog]

Hmmm,,,More like about 25 years,,,,but we had Milk tankers before then anyway.

.


Down here it's only been in the last 15 or so years that a lot of places have become dairy farms, before that it was all sheep country, now there's dairy farms in place you would not have thought possible 20 years ago.

And O.T. - I believe there's an ecological time-bomb a-tickin' away what with all the extra effluent being discharged and the massive water draw-off from rivers and extreme amount of irrigation being poured onto the land in places like the McKenzie Basin etc...

[unstuck]

Down here it's only been in the last 15 or so years that a lot of places have become dairy farms, before that it was all sheep country, now there's dairy farms in place you would not have thought possible 20 years ago.

And O.T. - I believe there's an ecological time-bomb a-tickin' away what with all the extra effluent being discharged and the massive water draw-off from rivers and extreme amount of irrigation being poured onto the land in places like the McKenzie Basin etc...

I think they are starting to notice this same thing in the five rivers, mossburn area already.:yes:

[Gremlin]

Then the next year their back doing it again.
You'd think the council / organisation would want a warranty. Please someone in the department have a brain that a job that costs twice as much lasts say, 5 times as long = a bargain?

Highbrook in East Tamaki is a good example of modern roading. It's a feeder between industrial and motorway. When developed it was hot mix, nice and smooth. In time, with the large volumes and their weight some sections broke up. They put in a few terrible patches (bumpy as hell transitions) which actually sped up the break down. Then they removed all the hot mix (including the sections that were fine) and laid chip seal instead, which is so rough the first few times over it I thought my bike had a problem, as it slipped and slithered over the stones. Noisy as well, and the traffic volume has pounded the surface into crap again...

[awa355]

It takes time to get things right, remember,

You cant learn road making in a mere 100 years, can you??:brick:

[Zedder]

You'd think the council / organisation would want a warranty. Please someone in the department have a brain that a job that costs twice as much lasts say, 5 times as long = a bargain?

Highbrook in East Tamaki is a good example of modern roading. It's a feeder between industrial and motorway. When developed it was hot mix, nice and smooth. In time, with the large volumes and their weight some sections broke up. They put in a few terrible patches (bumpy as hell transitions) which actually sped up the break down. Then they removed all the hot mix (including the sections that were fine) and laid chip seal instead, which is so rough the first few times over it I thought my bike had a problem, as it slipped and slithered over the stones. Noisy as well, and the traffic volume has pounded the surface into crap again...

Councils etc do get a warranty/guarantee Gremlin but several factors are in play here. They may have got the traffic volume wrong. Maybe more trucks started using the route than was projected which does happen 'cos word gets around to use a certain road.

The thing is, trucks damage roads to the power of 4 compared to cars. So, a truck weighing 8 tonnes for example works out to 8x8x8x8 in terms of surface damage as opposed to a car. However, although the surface has been getting damaged it has also been compressed which actually will assist in the total compaction to a degree.

Another problem is that NZ still uses a 1950s test for what's called Pavement Performance modeling. This is obviously not good. Unfortunately, as far as I know, a new system was still being developed overseas to take the place of the old one and hasn't been introduced yet.

[ellipsis]

...so we have cheap chinese tar, made in india and good help is hard to find...anything else...

[Ocean1]

When developed it was hot mix, nice and smooth. In time, with the large volumes and their weight some sections broke up. They put in a few terrible patches (bumpy as hell transitions) which actually sped up the break down. Then they removed all the hot mix (including the sections that were fine) and laid chip seal instead,

Was talking to someone in the trade, so to speak couple of months ago. Apparently hot mix for suburban roads = $70/M, chipseal = $12/M.

/lesson.

[unstuck]

Another problem is that NZ still uses a 1950s test for what's called Pavement Performance modeling. This is obviously not good. Unfortunately, as far as I know, a new system was still being developed overseas to take the place of the old one and hasn't been introduced yet.

So not just a clegg test then?;)

[unstuck]

I think Norway have just come up with a new perfomance test?????

[Zedder]

Was talking to someone in the trade, so to speak couple of months ago. Apparently hot mix for suburban roads = $70/M, chipseal = $12/M.

/lesson.

Of course they'll go for the cheaper option, no surprises there.

[Road kill]

You'd think the council / organisation would want a warranty. Please someone in the department have a brain that a job that costs twice as much lasts say, 5 times as long = a bargain?

Highbrook in East Tamaki is a good example of modern roading. It's a feeder between industrial and motorway. When developed it was hot mix, nice and smooth. In time, with the large volumes and their weight some sections broke up. They put in a few terrible patches (bumpy as hell transitions) which actually sped up the break down. Then they removed all the hot mix (including the sections that were fine) and laid chip seal instead, which is so rough the first few times over it I thought my bike had a problem, as it slipped and slithered over the stones. Noisy as well, and the traffic volume has pounded the surface into crap again...

Ahh yes,High Brook five days a week usually 2-3 times a day.

I come off the motorway in my truck,get onto High Brook and stay in the right lane for the first 500 meters when I should really pull left straight away to let faster traffic past,,but for the road surface being so bad in the left lane it darn near shakes my teeth out when I'm empty.

How olds that road now ?,,six years "I think and it changes every six months and never for the better.

Of course the good thing,,,it could always get worse huh.:pinch:

[Zedder]

So not just a clegg test then?;)

No mate, different emphasis. Check out Markov models etc for pavement deterioration if you're interested.

Yep, Nordic countries are quite on to it with roading research and pavement performance models.

[pritch]

I was in Aussie over Xmas, 45C or so, NO melted tar on the roads.

Why the Eff can't Kiwi roads be the same???

Maybe they don't have a totally obsesive thing about the lowest tender. Despite all the noise to the contrary the powers that be don't care too much about safety, unless perhaps it's their own.

There are the three "E"s: engineering, education and enforcement. The first two cost money, the last one rakes it in. So pardon my cynicism, but guess where the emphasis goes in Godzone?

[Zedder]

Maybe they don't have a totally obsesive thing about the lowest tender. Despite all the noise to the contrary the powers that be don't care too much about safety, unless perhaps it's their own.

There are the three "E"s: engineering, education and enforcement. The first two cost money, the last one rakes it in. So pardon my cynicism, but guess where the emphasis goes in Godzone?

Money from enforcement provides funding for roads etc.

[george formby]

You an Inspector or something with all them pips?:eek5:

And how does the tar get onto them??:wacko:

Bugger.. Dropped an "e" sorry. It's not the sliding but the splattering that annoys.

[unstuck]

Bugger.. Dropped an "e" sorry. It's not the sliding but the splattering that annoys.

CRC is good for removing tar.:2thumbsup

[pritch]

Money from enforcement provides funding for roads etc.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy too?

There is the tax on petrol - excessive and rising - that's supposed to be spent on roading too but if that happens now it would only be coincidental.

[Zedder]

Do you believe in the tooth fairy too?

There is the tax on petrol - excessive and rising - that's supposed to be spent on roading too but if that happens now it would only be coincidental.

Wake up from La La land, $4.5 billion has been spent on NZ's roading infrastructure in the last 3 years. The money for that didn't just fall out of the sky.

[pritch]

Wake up from La La land, $4.5 billion has been spent on NZ's roading infrastructure in the last 3 years. The money for that didn't just fall out of the sky.

One of us may indeed live in la la land but I don't think it's me.

I have no idea how much has been spent on roading infrastructure, but I do know it has been very unevenly distributed. Most of it going on routes in and out of Auckland and Wellington so that traffic there can become even more congested. Presumably billions more will need to be spent in Christchurch repairing earthquake damage.

The major roading projects where I live keep getting postponed, and yer average Kiwi driver being very "average", people continue to die.

It would now be many decades since the tax on petrol was allocated specifically to roading that and I suspect the proceeds from "enforcement" are also now swallowed up by the consolidated fund.

[Zedder]

One of us may indeed live in la la land but I don't think it's me.

I have no idea how much has been spent on roading infrastructure, but I do know it has been very unevenly distributed. Most of it going on routes in and out of Auckland and Wellington so that traffic there can become even more congested. Presumably billions more will need to be spent in Christchurch repairing earthquake damage.

The major roading projects where I live keep getting postponed, and yer average Kiwi driver being very "average", people continue to die.

It would now be many decades since the tax on petrol was allocated specifically to roading that and I suspect the proceeds from "enforcement" are also now swallowed up by the consolidated fund.

You're absolutely right Pritch, you have no idea. Originally you wrote that money collected for roading wasn't being used for that purpose. I supplied figures to show that to be wrong. After 15 years in roading design, engineering and construction both here and overseas I can tell you the figures stack up.

Have you any data to show bad road making or surface conditions are the cause of deaths in NZ?

Also, check the NZTA site for roading projects in your area, I did.

Sure, expenditure on roading is on a priority basis but, I've never heard of it being to the detriment of safety. In fact, road design and construction is one of the key controllable elements in reducing deaths. Idiot drivers, the biggest variable are not surprisingly the biggest problem. Cheers.

[actungbaby]

...cheap chinese tar made in india i 'spose..

knock of the tar sounds like anti smoking add

[TheTengTheory]

You're absolutely right Pritch, you have no idea. Originally you wrote that money collected for roading wasn't being used for that purpose. I supplied figures to show that to be wrong. After 15 years in roading design, engineering and construction both here and overseas I can tell you the figures stack up.

Have you any data to show bad road making or surface conditions are the cause of deaths in NZ?

Also, check the NZTA site for roading projects in your area, I did.

Sure, expenditure on roading is on a priority basis but, I've never heard of it being to the detriment of safety. In fact, road design and construction is one of the key controllable elements in reducing deaths. Idiot drivers, the biggest variable are not surprisingly the biggest problem. Cheers.

I do not know the technicalities or statistics behind how they design and construct the roads here. Jjust my opinion and confusion to a certain extent.

Rode through SH 43 and the amount of melting tar on the road was...scary....Had to concentrate on the road directly infront of me to negotiate a line through the tar. Didn't go very quickly due to the conditions but sure was bloody nerve wracking braking and hoping the front doesn't wash out on the tar.

What confuses me the most is that despite been the same stretch of road and been exposed to the sun equally, some roads had no bubbling tar pools while some were just atrocious.

I do agree with your point been that road surfaces don't cause deaths, Ignorant and unaware drivers do.

[Zedder]

I do not know the technicalities or statistics behind how they design and construct the roads here. Jjust my opinion and confusion to a certain extent.

Rode through SH 43 and the amount of melting tar on the road was...scary....Had to concentrate on the road directly infront of me to negotiate a line through the tar. Didn't go very quickly due to the conditions but sure was bloody nerve wracking braking and hoping the front doesn't wash out on the tar.

What confuses me the most is that despite been the same stretch of road and been exposed to the sun equally, some roads had no bubbling tar pools while some were just atrocious.

I do agree with your point been that road surfaces don't cause deaths, Ignorant and unaware drivers do.

Yeah it can be very scary.

A couple of questions: Did you report the tar bleeding? Was the seal new or a repair?

[TheTengTheory]

Yeah it can be very scary.

A couple of questions: Did you report the tar bleeding? Was the seal new or a repair?

Only rode through it yesterday arvo....Seems to be repair work gone awry. The first quarter from taumaranui was particularly bad. Front wheel went sideways momentarily half way through a corner...:sick:

[Zedder]

Only rode through it yesterday arvo....Seems to be repair work gone awry. The first quarter from taumaranui was particularly bad. Front wheel went sideways momentarily half way through a corner...:sick:

Some phone numbers to report road hazards: NZTransport Agency on 0800 44 44 49 or Police on *555. Both 24/7 afaik.

[TheTengTheory]

Some phone numbers to report road hazards: NZTransport Agency on 0800 44 44 49 or Police on *555. Both 24/7 afaik.

:drinknsin