A word of warning! [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

budda

14th January 2013, 08:44

Is this in the MNZ updated rules??

As usual, NO it it not. When we receive results of the sample testing back, a decision will be made based on this information, and conveyed to all affected parties.

IF there is an issue requiring a change of rules, it WILL be made public at the earliest opportunity ..........

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 09:04

In fact it is in the rules and it's up to competitors to understand this.

You are only allowed 0.1% oxygenators in your fuel. Mobil 98 depending where you buy it has up to 10% and 91 has up to 3%

neil_cb125t

14th January 2013, 09:09

As usual, NO it it not. When we receive results of the sample testing back, a decision will be made based on this information, and conveyed to all affected parties.

IF there is an issue requiring a change of rules, it WILL be made public at the earliest opportunity ..........

Makes sense, on the subject at PMCC they ran Motards in F3, I was the rides rep and was approached by F3 riders asking why this was allowed due to rule 4.6 of the superlite rules, only clip on bars allowed no motard style bars.

So I approached the officials. I was told by PMCC that this year Motards had been let into F3 by MNZ for the nats so they had. The rule book that OMCC had (dated Jan 2012) still had rule 4.6 in it. Budda do you know if this rule has been changed, currently the MNZ website still states rule 4.6 is in place.

Anyway, the querying riders were happy with the outcome, I asked that any motard guys competing in F3 keep their feet on their pegs while racing with us normal riding folk, and the rules to be checked before next round.

Tony.OK

14th January 2013, 09:46

In fact it is in the rules and it's up to competitors to understand this.

You are only allowed 0.1% oxygenators in your fuel. Mobil 98 depending where you buy it has up to 10% and 91 has up to 3%

I had a look at the Mobil NZ website last week after hearing about dramas, their specs for fuel say nothing about ethanol. Bad luck for those using Mobil I guess aye.

yungatart

14th January 2013, 10:25

Makes sense, on the subject at PMCC they ran Motards in F3, I was the rides rep and was approached by F3 riders asking why this was allowed due to rule 4.6 of the superlite rules, only clip on bars allowed no motard style bars.

So I approached the officials. I was told by PMCC that this year Motards had been let into F3 by MNZ for the nats so they had. The rule book that OMCC had (dated Jan 2012) still had rule 4.6 in it. Budda do you know if this rule has been changed, currently the MNZ website still states rule 4.6 is in place.

Anyway, the querying riders were happy with the outcome, I asked that any motard guys competing in F3 keep their feet on their pegs while racing with us normal riding folk, and the rules to be checked before next round.

Glad you got things sorted, Chappy, and hope you were happy with the outcome.

neil_cb125t

14th January 2013, 11:10

Glad you got things sorted, Chappy, and hope you were happy with the outcome.

I actually didn't mind it - infact the F3 feild was way bigger because of it - 26 riders or something. Manfeild is probably not a bad track to mix the two but Taupo would probably be too different between the two riding styles.

The riders that came to me were happy with the outcome for the day

Grumph

14th January 2013, 14:19

As usual, NO it it not. When we receive results of the sample testing back, a decision will be made based on this information, and conveyed to all affected parties.

IF there is an issue requiring a change of rules, it WILL be made public at the earliest opportunity ..........

To the best of my (limited) knowledge Ethanol is not an oxygenator - it only has one oxy atom in the molecule which is liberated by burning. It is however a very good carrier for others...blends with nitro well...

Don't confuse octane number (anti knock properties) with the calorific value obtained whe it's burned. Ethanol gives only about 2/3 the calorific value of petrol when burned

If you guys are seriously after power, don't use ethanol blends....under E85 that is to say...

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 18:49

To the best of my (limited) knowledge Ethanol is not an oxygenator - it only has one oxy atom in the molecule which is liberated by burning. It is however a very good carrier for others...blends with nitro well...

Don't confuse octane number (anti knock properties) with the calorific value obtained whe it's burned. Ethanol gives only about 2/3 the calorific value of petrol when burned

If you guys are seriously after power, don't use ethanol blends....under E85 that is to say...

OXYGENATED FUELS:A fuel such as ethanol-blended gasoline that contains high oxygen content is called "oxygenated." Ethanol is an oxygenate, meaning that it adds oxygen to the fuel mixture. More oxygen helps the fuel burn more completely, thereby reducing the amount of harmful emissions from the tailpipe.

carburator

14th January 2013, 19:09

This is why i love racing in a NON MANZ sport anything goes in the tank....

Grumph

14th January 2013, 19:19

OXYGENATED FUELS:A fuel such as ethanol-blended gasoline that contains high oxygen content is called "oxygenated." Ethanol is an oxygenate, meaning that it adds oxygen to the fuel mixture. More oxygen helps the fuel burn more completely, thereby reducing the amount of harmful emissions from the tailpipe.

Okay, I'll rephrase that...it's not a very good oxygenator....Lets see what the test results show as here may well be other oxygenators in some of the pump fuels too.

And Peter - if you have to revisit the fuel regs, as already discussed in person, the specs for Methanol don't match what is commercially available in NZ.....

Howie

14th January 2013, 19:30

I had a look at the Mobil NZ website last week after hearing about dramas, their specs for fuel say nothing about ethanol. Bad luck for those using Mobil I guess aye.

The Mobil site does mention ethanol fuel's in the materaial data safety sheets here. http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx Do a search under NZ, and petrol. They do say that it is less than 10% ethanol, but that other oxygenators may in the fuel.

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 19:31

Okay, I'll rephrase that...it's not a very good oxygenator....Lets see what the test results show as here may well be other oxygenators in some of the pump fuels too.

And Peter - if you have to revisit the fuel regs, as already discussed in person, the specs for Methanol don't match what is commercially available in NZ.....

The only difference Mobil 98 makes to me is that it goes on the Mobil card.....

Any oxygenators are a no no

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 19:33

The Mobil site does mention ethanol fuel's in the materaial data safety sheets here. http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx (http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx) Do a search under NZ, and petrol. They do say that it is less than 10% ethanol, but that other oxygenators may in the fuel.

We got the spec sheet from mobil and they have Synergy 8000 and Synergy 8000 e10. Depending where you buy it. If you buy it from the lower North Island its E10 but it is clearly labelled on the pump

Quasievil

14th January 2013, 19:38

Want a special brew made bro ? oh fuck !!!! I just posted on KB fuck this shit !!

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 19:42

Want a special brew made bro ? oh fuck !!!! I just posted on KB fuck this shit !!

Good marketing opportunity there Quasi. You could say that your fuel is too good for motor racing in NZ! Its illegal for Go Kart racing for the same reason

Howie

14th January 2013, 19:42

We got the spec sheet from mobil and they have Synergy 8000 and Synergy 8000 e10. Depending where you buy it. If you buy it from the lower North Island its E10 but it is clearly labelled on the pump

From what I understand from this thread the amount of Oxygenates present is the main concern?

In Both the ethanol Blends, and unleaded petrol MSD sheets for NZ Mobil fuels the same statement is made. "Oxygenates may be present up to the maximum permitted by European Standard EN228". so if you are worried all you need to do is hunt down a copy of said standard on the net, and see what concentrations are legally allowed.

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 19:44

From what I understand from this thread the amount of Oxygenates present is the main concern?

In Both the ethanol Blends, and unleaded petrol MSD sheets for NZ Mobil fuels the same statement is made. "Oxygenates may be present up to the maximum permitted by European Standard EN228". so if you are worried all you need to do is hunt down a copy of said standard on the net, and see what concentrations are legally allowed.

Doesnt matter what the european standard is, MNZ standard say 0.01% Oxygenates

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 19:46

For the record we have all been using BP 98 and that has been testing out fine, if not a tad stale

koba

14th January 2013, 19:58

Oh dear.

This could lead to a bad situation.
I hope if it does/is that common sense is a bit more prevalent than it is in other forms of regulation...

Maybe I'll spend my hope on something else.

I'd be quite surprised if there was a pump fuel that didn't have oxygen in some quantity in it...
Edit: oh, 0.01%

CHOPPA

14th January 2013, 20:03

koba

14th January 2013, 20:05

From what I understand from this thread the amount of Oxygenates present is the main concern?

In Both the ethanol Blends, and unleaded petrol MSD sheets for NZ Mobil fuels the same statement is made. "Oxygenates may be present up to the maximum permitted by European Standard EN228". so if you are worried all you need to do is hunt down a copy of said standard on the net, and see what concentrations are legally allowed.

http://www.biofuels-platform.ch/en/infos/en228.php

Hmm, that's not so good.

I wonder about the intent of the rules, would it be to ensure that people were using normal 'undoped' pup fuel at the time the regulations were written?

Mental Trousers

14th January 2013, 20:08

Doesnt matter what the european standard is, MNZ standard say 0.01% Oxygenates

It's 0.1% by mass bro.

Still, it allows for sweet F.A. oxygenates.

koba

14th January 2013, 20:13

Mental Trousers

14th January 2013, 20:16

If one argued that...

Facts are good ...

Grumph

14th January 2013, 20:20

I wonder about the intent of the rules, would it be to ensure that people were using normal 'undoped' pup fuel at the time the regulations were written?

Once you start on "intent" you are into deep metaphysics with MNZ.....But it's my belief that those classes were to run on commercially available "pump" fuel...which in the NI at least, E10 is....

You may have to do something as simple as produce a receipt....or as hard as use organiser supplied fuel...who knows which way the commission will go....

koba

14th January 2013, 20:32

Facts are good ...

For a debate over mass?

I would have thought fantasy had the better chance for success...

koba

14th January 2013, 20:33

Once you start on "intent" you are into deep metaphysics with MNZ.....But it's my belief that those classes were to run on commercially available "pump" fuel...which in the NI at least, E10 is....

You may have to do something as simple as produce a receipt....or as hard as use organiser supplied fuel...who knows which way the commission will go....

That sums it up perfectly.

Maido

14th January 2013, 20:40

It was probably the illegal fuel making your bike illegally loud chop, your just a big trouble maker. :P

Mental Trousers

14th January 2013, 20:40

For a debate over mass?

I would have thought fantasy had the better chance for success...

There's no debate. This thread is about MNZ Fuel rules, rules which are very specific.

steveyb

14th January 2013, 21:47

But it also speaks to the shifting sands nature of the petroleum products market place and how motorsport governing bodies need to be constantly aware of these changes and maintain their regulations to match.
Petrol/gasoline/diesel blends change from season to season let alone year to year. Season to season changes might not be such an issue in Nth Is NZ, but in Sth Is NZ they most certainly will be. I.E. the summer blend is different (higher specific gravity to avoid excessive volatilisation or gelification in case of diesel) than in the winter.
Over the years the blends have also changed to include fewer aromatics and more branched alkanes, more oxygenates, octane boosters, detergents, dyes etc etc to keep pace with engine developments and emissions regulations.
If the fuel rule is some years old then it will not match the fuel that is currently available as commercially available pump gas. And this clearly shows also that different brands do indeed have different blends.

Kornholio

14th January 2013, 22:00

Oh so confused... might just put diesel in next time i race... may smoke less too :/...

caspernz

15th January 2013, 06:37

I wonder how long it will take Joe Public to work out that Mobil stopped adding ethanol to their pump fuel a while ago...:doh:

White trash

15th January 2013, 06:54

budda

15th January 2013, 06:56

Im sure common sense will prevail but the MNZ officials were just as surprised as me when my fuel tested positive.

Problem is for now that is how the rule is written, I was lucky because I was tested in practice

Lets all be CLEAR - the initial "test" indicated that the sample required further, in-depth testing - that is all.

Both the "A" and "B" samples have been sent to the Lab for this testing to be carried out - when these results are received, Chop will be advised of the results, and if any further action is required by MNZ it WILL happen, and all parties affected advised.

There is NO accusation of anything nefarious, this is a matter that requires attention to detail to AVOID that, so comment is pointless until we have the information we need to reach any decision - all that has happened is there has been an issue identified, and it will be dealt with

Maido

15th January 2013, 07:02

But rumours are way juicier Pete. Fact smact

budda

15th January 2013, 07:14

But rumours are way juicier Pete. Fact smact

Sad, but TRUE. Hence my post in an attempt to quell some of them. Maybe I should start one that the noise meter was actually reading UNDER scale ............

codgyoleracer

15th January 2013, 09:17

Sad, but TRUE. Hence my post in an attempt to quell some of them. Maybe I should start one that the noise meter was actually reading UNDER scale ............

Speaking of scales pete, I felt sorry fo that 250 of yours.........

CHOPPA

15th January 2013, 09:17

I don't want other competitors to go through the same drama as I had to go through just before I have to qualify. Have people calling us cheats. Easier to not run Mobil 98

CHOPPA

15th January 2013, 09:26

Sad, but TRUE. Hence my post in an attempt to quell some of them. Maybe I should start one that the noise meter was actually reading UNDER scale ............

What's that got to do with it Pete, grow up. I'm trying to be constructive

CHOPPA

15th January 2013, 09:29

But rumours are way juicier Pete. Fact smact

How is it a rumour Jeremy? This information has been researched and discussed with Stu so out is fact!

Here I am trying to help other competitors but it turns into the same old bull shit

scrivy

15th January 2013, 09:32

Fuck me!

I'm glad I race in an 'OPEN' class..... none of this shit....

budda

15th January 2013, 09:58

What's that got to do with it Pete, grow up. I'm trying to be constructive

I'm sure you ARE Sloan - all I'm saying is lets keep reactions until we KNOW there actually IS a problem - the test done at Ruapuna was indicative only, thats why we sent the sample away, for a DEFINITIVE set of data to use in decision-making.

Deciding one way or the other without this would be simply bloody stupid and counter-productive, wouldnt it ?

The only effective way forward is an INFORMED one, I'm sure you agree !

nodrog

15th January 2013, 10:15

Fuck me!

I'm glad I race in an 'OPEN' class..... none of this shit....

Imagine if you ran mobil petrol in you 1537cc busa motor!!

CHOPPA

15th January 2013, 10:23

I'm sure you ARE Sloan - all I'm saying is lets keep reactions until we KNOW there actually IS a problem - the test done at Ruapuna was indicative only, thats why we sent the sample away, for a DEFINITIVE set of data to use in decision-making.

Deciding one way or the other without this would be simply bloody stupid and counter-productive, wouldnt it ?

The only effective way forward is an INFORMED one, I'm sure you agree !

But initial tests on the fuel have failed surely it's not in anyones best interest to run it and risk it? Hence the warning.

from the research we have done the indications are that it doesn't meet current mnz standards.

scrivy

15th January 2013, 11:40

Imagine if you ran mobil petrol in you 1537cc busa motor!!

I thought it was a 1600??

cowpoos

15th January 2013, 12:50

Fast Eddie

15th January 2013, 13:14

I thought it was a 1600??

I was sure you were running 1800 by now Scrivy! on some evil fuel that you have to handle with rubber gloves whilst wearing a condom

scrivy

15th January 2013, 13:46

you have to handle with rubber gloves whilst wearing a condom

Double the protection!!:niceone:

Fast Eddie

15th January 2013, 14:01

Double the protection!!:niceone:

oh you're saying you want 2 shipping containers stacked at Wangas Cem Circuit 2013? :D

hehe nah sorry.. too soon

edit: I would like more tyres or sand trap on the wall I hit at hampers.. for my return at BSTTC 2013

scrivy

15th January 2013, 14:03

oh you're saying you want 2 shipping containers stacked at Wangas Cem Circuit 2013? :D

hehe nah sorry.. too soon

edit: I would like more tyres or sand trap on the wall I hit at hampers.. for my return at BSTTC 2013

Nah, I'm too hard for steel containers. I'm thinking more along the lines of razor wire, or steel spikes.... Gotta do it properly.....

Fast Eddie

15th January 2013, 14:08

... thinking more along the lines of razor wire, or steel spikes.... Gotta do it properly.....

:D

The next sidecar meeting should be run like this...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o56w0WHaENQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:D think of the spectator enjoyment

koba

15th January 2013, 19:31

Interesting... anecdotally when we fill either of our vehicles with Gull [cheapest] gas milage is crap..significatly..its an ethonal blend...works out cheaper to buy more expensive normal petrol.

So I would imagine its anti power to...you may gain a tiny bit of oxegen...but unless your engine is turn for the lower specific calories of ethanol..you more than likely lowering the output of your engine.

I think that would depend on the situation, perhaps the oxygen effect may be negligible but the cooling effect could be significant. I'd think high ethanol fuel may be just the ticket in a hard-tuned air-cooled two stroke that is running on 'pump fuel' . The extra consumption would be negligible in most non-endurance racing...

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

EDIT: "unless your engine is turn for the lower specific calories of ethanol" oh, you mean tuned, right, yeah I guess I'm kind of talking about the 'tuned' or suitable part.

CHOPPA

18th February 2013, 12:47

Lets all be CLEAR - the initial "test" indicated that the sample required further, in-depth testing - that is all.

Both the "A" and "B" samples have been sent to the Lab for this testing to be carried out - when these results are received, Chop will be advised of the results, and if any further action is required by MNZ it WILL happen, and all parties affected advised.

There is NO accusation of anything nefarious, this is a matter that requires attention to detail to AVOID that, so comment is pointless until we have the information we need to reach any decision - all that has happened is there has been an issue identified, and it will be dealt with

Test results have come back and yes I can confirm that Mobil 98 with the ethanol blend is illegal to use in competition.

scrivy

18th February 2013, 12:54

Test results have come back and yes I can confirm that Mobil 98 with the ethanol blend is illegal to use in competition.

:facepalm:
Now what?

codgyoleracer

18th February 2013, 13:07

Test results have come back and yes I can confirm that Mobil 98 with the ethanol blend is illegal to use in competition.

I bet you paid in cash, and wore a hoodie & dark sunnies making that purchase too.........

Tony.OK

18th February 2013, 13:13

Test results have come back and yes I can confirm that Mobil 98 with the ethanol blend is illegal to use in competition.

Has that affected your points Chop?

(oh and your bike went too cheap! i got the end time wrong and missed the b*stard)

Kevin G

18th February 2013, 13:26

Rule 10.16.5 from the GCR's
The results of the analysis must as soon as practicable be notified to the club at whose meeting the testing was carried out, the rider and the MNZ Board for appropriate penalty(s) to be imposed should irregularities be confirmed.

scrivy

18th February 2013, 15:20

:facepalm:
Now what?

:facepalm:
Now what?

CHOPPA

18th February 2013, 15:32

Has that affected your points Chop?

(oh and your bike went too cheap! i got the end time wrong and missed the b*stard)

Shouldnt affect my points because fortunately for me they tested my fuel during practice but its before the board now

wayne

18th February 2013, 16:39

pratice or qualifing ?

slowpoke

18th February 2013, 16:39

Shame about the Mobil 98, it was obviously quieter than the BP 98 you were using afterwards eh? :Pokey:

Deano

18th February 2013, 16:44

Shame about the Mobil 98, it was obviously quieter than the BP 98 you were using afterwards eh? :Pokey:

LOL.

My BP 98 tested fine. Not sure what gas Hamish Murphy was using but they asked if it was kerosene. His bike still went well enough.