Surely they wouldn't [Archive]

YellowDog

18th January 2013, 09:30

A Barrytown man failed to persuade a judge that police had forged a photograph in order to prove his motorbike had strayed over the centre line.

Police photographed Grant David Crook on his machine as it crossed the centre line on a bend near Punakaiki on December 22, 2011.

Crook was stopped and told he would be getting a ticket in the mail. He asked for a copy of the photograph, and when it arrived he decided that it depicted a different bend to the one he had been stopped on, so concluded the police must have super-imposed a picture of his machine on the bend.

Supporting this theory, he said, was the fact that the photo was not stamped with a time and date.

Sentencing Crook in Greymouth District Court, Judge Paul Kellar dismissed the claim but said he accepted that Crook had given honest, but mistaken, evidence.

He was fined the original $150 infringement fee.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10859830&ref=rss

Edbear

18th January 2013, 10:06

Nup, I think it was a case of him assuming which bend he was photographed on.

An expert photographer would be able to give a good opinion on the pic.

Oh, but wait... The KB lawbashers haven't said their piece yet...

Zedder

18th January 2013, 10:13

I laughed when I saw the riders name was Crook, then laughed again about if the cops name had've been Crook.

Asher

18th January 2013, 10:45

i would have thought all the officer would have needed to do would be bring the exif data to court to prove he was right. Strange he didn't.

The End

18th January 2013, 11:17

i would have thought all the officer would have needed to do would be bring the exif data to court to prove he was right. Strange he didn't.

Exif data can be modified easily, and by the sounds of it he would have given a hard copy as evidence rather than a digital one.

p.dath

18th January 2013, 11:25

Nup, I think it was a case of him assuming which bend he was photographed on.

Perhaps he spent a lot of time over the centre line on corners but wasn't looking down to notice that particular corner.

Murray

18th January 2013, 11:37

So who decides what bends you can cross the centre line and what ones you can't??? We all know bendy roads where you can see a long way ahead whether any traffic is coming towards you.

p.dath

18th January 2013, 11:57

So who decides what bends you can cross the centre line and what ones you can't??? We all know bendy roads where you can see a long way ahead whether any traffic is coming towards you.

Um, are you serious?

scracha

18th January 2013, 12:22

Um, are you serious?

Me, I'm a big boy.. I decide which bends I cross the centre line on.

YellowDog

18th January 2013, 12:35

I do try not to cross the centre line, as it can be slippery or have bumpy cats eyes that can affect traction and balance.

BUT sometimes a you just need a wider line and...... well..... :nono:

onearmedbandit

18th January 2013, 12:53

I try not to cross the centre line, means I have to lean less.

Haggis2

18th January 2013, 13:13

Cos coppas have nothing better to do than doctor pics for a lousy $150 fine. What a muppet. Suck it up and pay the fine bitch

FJRider

18th January 2013, 15:05

One cop takes the photo on one bend. Radio's ahead to his mate ... who then stops and gets the details of the rider/driver.

Rider/driver gets mail.

Common practice throughout the country.

Kornholio

18th January 2013, 15:46

I try not to cross the centre line, means I have to lean less.

We ride the windy bits to get away from the straight bits so why ruin a perfectly good corner or two?

onearmedbandit

18th January 2013, 16:14

We ride the windy bits to get away from the straight bits so why ruin a perfectly good corner or two?

Exactly. I've never understood cutting the corner, even if you can see clearly through it, on the road.

puddytat

18th January 2013, 18:55

So is crossing the centre line with the wheels the problem, as opposed to having 1/2 your torso across the centre line yet yer wheels in your lane...:scratch:

Kornholio

18th January 2013, 20:54

So is crossing the centre line with the wheels the problem, as opposed to having 1/2 your torso across the centre line yet yer wheels in your lane...:scratch:

Common sense wins on the day :niceone:

Clockwork

4th February 2013, 10:53

Deano

4th February 2013, 12:28

Exactly. I've never understood cutting the corner, even if you can see clearly through it, on the road.

So you can gain a few metres back on your mate ahead of you of course!

FJRider

4th February 2013, 13:53

If crossing a centre line is an offense, how can you legally pass on a single carriage way? If it's not an offense and there is no traffic using the other carriageway on which law is such a charge laid?

The ONLY exception to the "Failing to keep left" rule in legislation is ... for the purpose of overtaking another vehicle, with 100 metres of visibility throughout the maneuver.

rastuscat

4th February 2013, 19:04

If crossing a centre line is an offense, how can you legally pass on a single carriage way? If it's not an offense and there is no traffic using the other carriageway on which law is such a charge laid?

Dear god. Hand your license in if you have to ask such ignorant questions.

Clockwork

5th February 2013, 09:33

Dear god. Hand your license in if you have to ask such ignorant questions.

Thanks for your help Rastuscat but I've found what I was looking for here http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2004/0427/latest/DLM303041.html Whereas this (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/about-riding/keeping-left.html) doesn't say actually state that crossing the centre line is an offense. (maybe because there are so many exceptions to the rule)

Seems a bit petty minded to me, pinging someone for crossing a centre line when there is no oncoming traffic but I guess that state of mind is a desirable attribute for a traffic cop.

Surely I don't have to point out to you that for every degree we lean our bikes into a bend we make them significantly less maneuverable while at the same time making them and ourselves as riders much more vulnerable to moss, oil, grit, damp surfaces, pot holes, and shitty cambers.

Me, I live in the real world. In my world if I misjudge my speed into an an unfamiliar curve or for any other reason feel that it may be undesirable to risk over-cooking the lean and sliding off the road or just running wide and unnecessarily increasing the risk of such an event, then if it's safer to do so, I would cross the centre line. I can only assume that you and others commenting likewise would grit your teeth, slavishly stick to the left and hope for the best.

So go ahead, write those tickets to riders choosing the safer option but don't kid yourself that you are working to improving road safety.

HenryDorsetCase

5th February 2013, 10:01

Exactly. I've never understood cutting the corner, even if you can see clearly through it, on the road.

I'm more likely to do it in the car, but never on the bike...... even if I can see thru the bend.

caspernz

5th February 2013, 10:17

I'm more likely to do it in the car, but never on the bike...... even if I can see thru the bend.

Makes me grin when I recall an interview with John McGuinness I saw some years back about fast riding on the road, he seemed to be of the mindset that if you were out riding fast then using the whole road (where safe to do so) was the preferred option. Legalities aside of course, for if you're well in excess of the limit anyways...crossing that centre line ain't no biggie...:innocent:

But then we're talking where the sightlines are open...not like blind corners and such :facepalm:

Road kill

5th February 2013, 21:01

I treat the white line like a cliff face.

Stay well between but well away from at all times.

Bike,Car,Truck,,,,stay in your own fucking lane.

mouldy

5th February 2013, 22:16

I treat the white line like a cliff face.

Stay well between but well away from at all times.

Bike,Car,Truck,,,,stay in your own fucking lane.

Agree , except for Feb 17th in Paeroa

rastuscat

6th February 2013, 10:01

Me, I live in the real world. In my world if I misjudge my speed into an an unfamiliar curve or for any other reason feel that it may be undesirable to risk over-cooking the lean and sliding off the road or just running wide and unnecessarily increasing the risk of such an event, then if it's safer to do so, I would cross the centre line. I can only assume that you and others commenting likewise would grit your teeth, slavishly stick to the left and hope for the best..

I live in the real world too. The one where people pull out of a give way into the path of an oncoming bike because they were sure there was nothing coming. Funny how many people collide with things that weren't there.

9999 times out of 10000, when you cross the centreline due to having overcooked the entry, there'll be nothing coming, and you're all good. Not legal, but all good.

It's the 1 time that we are trying to help you avoid. If we tell you loud and clear that we are enforcing the keep left rule, we are hoping that it might encourage you to not overcook your entry. Back off a few metres earlier, and you'll have a better chance of staying on your own side of the road.

Thing is, most folk who cut corners don't do so in order to make their travel safer, as you do. Most are just too lazy to drive in a manner required by law. Driving entirely to the legislation doesn't necessarily make you a safe driver, and driving outside the legislation doesn't necessarily make you unsafe. But there has to be a line drawn in the sand, and it's drawn down the middle of most roads too.

Having re read my post I seem to have been having a bad day when I bagged you, sorry about that.

FJRider

6th February 2013, 10:43

I live in the real world too. The one where people pull out of a give way into the path of an oncoming bike because they were sure there was nothing coming. Funny how many people collide with things that weren't there.

People collide with "things" ... because those "things" didn't get out of their way. The hope "they" will move out of "my" way does not eventuate. And the "they" (being in the right) ... are often reluctant to change their path.

How often is the "I was in a hurry/late" excuse trotted out during the police interview afterwards .. ??

rastuscat

6th February 2013, 10:54

People collide with "things" ... because those "things" didn't get out of their way. The hope "they" will move out of "my" way does not eventuate. And the "they" (being in the right) ... are often reluctant to change their path.

How often is the "I was in a hurry/late" excuse trotted out during the police interview afterwards .. ??

Not often, actually.

After a crash the offending driver often says first that they didn't see the other vehicle, then that the other vehicle was going fast. Um, how can you tell how fast a vehicle is going without seeing it?

Seriously though, it comes back to the same old chestnut. Inattention blindness, amplified by the looming effect. You don't see a bike off in the distance, and even if you do it looks miles away. Then suddenly it appears really close, and your mind then explains that fact by theorizing that it must have been going fast.

There is just so much psychology involved, I need a lie down. On a couch.

FJRider

6th February 2013, 11:03

There is just so much psychology involved, I need a lie down. On a couch.

I'll get my notebook ... When did you first get this urge to cure the ill's of this world ... ???

FJRider

6th February 2013, 11:11

Seriously though, it comes back to the same old chestnut. Inattention blindness, amplified by the looming effect. You don't see a bike off in the distance, and even if you do it looks miles away. Then suddenly it appears really close, and your mind then explains that fact by theorizing that it must have been going fast.

There is just so much psychology involved, I need a lie down. On a couch.

Not psychology ... more to do with physics ...

Two vehicles approaching each other, both vehicles traveling at 100 km/hr. Actual approach speed then is 200 km/hr. A speed/formula beyond the comprehension of many to understand ... let alone estimate visually ...

BMWST?

6th February 2013, 11:19

i cross the centreline on occasion,but when i do its a calculated manouvre just like an overtaking manouvre both in the car and on the bike.In the car i would use exactly the same process as an overtaking manouvre, on the bike the process is not quite so rigourous.From my observation of other riders my crossing the centreline process is more rigourous than most motorcyclists overtaking calculations.

sugilite

6th February 2013, 11:27

FJRider

6th February 2013, 11:49

I live very rural, not many of the roads around here have centre lines. I've wondered what the official line from police is on these roads? (serious question).
Perhaps if Rastuscat is sufficiently rested from his well earned couch duty he could offer an opinion? I'm just curious.

According to the Road Code ... you are to keep as far left as is Practicable ... thus neither side of the road has "Right of Way" ... and vehicles traveling in either direction BOTH allow room for the other to pass without incident.

Thus a "failing to keep left" might be changed to a "Dangerous" charge. (depending on circumstances ... and who witnessed/reported it)

tri boy

6th February 2013, 12:04

I was told by a shrink once, that the human ability to drive a car/operate a vehicle/machine, is one of the most complex task that the brain performs.

(he told me a few things about myself also that are now hidden in a locked chest, in a dim compartment, down a no exit nerve ending in my worn, aging grey matter)

sugilite

6th February 2013, 12:04

According to the Road Code ... you are to keep as far left as is Practicable ... thus neither side of the road has "Right of Way" ... and vehicles traveling in either direction BOTH allow room for the other to pass without incident.

Thus a "failing to keep left" might be changed to a "Dangerous" charge. (depending on circumstances ... and who witnessed/reported it)

Makes sense. I've never seen a cop on any of my local rides in the 13 years I've been here, so no major, though just the other day I went to visit a neighbour in a little old mitsi chariot and unfortunately met a sheep truck in a spot where I'd always wondered what would happen if such an occurrence would happen, absolutely no time for either of us to brake, (looked like he was going fast, but prob just my frightened state of mind) so all I could do was not look at the truck, but more how close I could get to the bank on the left without toppling over it, result a smashed right wing mirror. I did not bother chasing after the truck, as even though he was technically on my side of the road, he could not pull any further left either. My neighbour had also ponded the same scenario, but has never had the practicable demo I got. It's quite hard to describe the spot, it is a very unusual combination of a rise, corner, bridge and culvert, even if I was only going 10 kph and came to a total stop, the result would of been the same.

FJRider

6th February 2013, 12:11

just the other day I went to visit a neighbour in a little old mitsi chariot and unfortunately met a sheep truck in a spot where I'd always wondered what would happen if such an occurrence would happen, absolutely no time for either of us to brake, (looked like he was going fast, but prob just my frightened state of mind) so all I could do was not look at the truck, but more how close I could get to the bank on the left without toppling over it.

A few similar roads around here ... :pinch:

cheshirecat

7th February 2013, 20:19

Dear God. Hand your license in if you have to ask such ignorant questions.
Fixed it for you as he's the only one keeping him alive

Ender EnZed

7th February 2013, 21:55

sugilite

8th February 2013, 00:04

I'm fascinated. Could you pinpoint it on Google Maps?
Shit, that took longer than i expected to sort! I used street view, google use pretty low res for rural, but hopefully you can work out the detail....

<img src="http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/%7Esugilite/jpg/impact.jpg">

Clockwork

9th February 2013, 18:15

[QUOTE=Ender EnZed;1130495078]You sound like a fucking hazard. The kind that makes poor decisions and also can't ride a motorcycle.

Thanks for your input but I'll stack my ride safety record against yours any time. Toss pot!

@Rastuscat. Cheers.

gammaguy

9th February 2013, 18:37

We ride the windy bits to get away from the straight bits so why ruin a perfectly good corner or two?
because broadly speaking there are two types of road riders

those that are happy to be going round corners and possibly explore the outer areas of the traction/lean angle/knee down experience

and those that are looking for a quicker "lap time"

as we know the fastest way between two points is a straight line,so the two styles are mutually exclusive

one is illlegal,the other is not if it is completed within the speed limit.

so me,I look for as many corners as possible and never cross the line.:innocent:

gammaguy

9th February 2013, 18:44

rastuscat

10th February 2013, 12:03

I live very rural, not many of the roads around here have centre lines. I've wondered what the official line from police is on these roads? (serious question).
Perhaps if Rastuscat is sufficiently rested from his well earned couch duty he could offer an opinion? I'm just curious.

Had a look at the photos and it looks like a 1 lane road to me. Hardly enough to call it two lanes.

I'd be keeping well left simply out of self preservation. I seriously doubt that you'd find any Popos enforcing the keep left rule on that road, as it's common sense to stay as left as possible.

Also too remote from donut shops, so hardly like to make it onto our RTPP.

FJRider

10th February 2013, 12:16

I seriously doubt that you'd find any Popos enforcing the keep left rule on that road, as it's common sense to stay as left as possible.

Also too remote from donut shops, so hardly like to make it onto our RTPP.

Only if said Popo lived on that road.

Self preservation is usually the primary instinct on such roads. Might isn't always right ... but it usually carries the arguement.