ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

I don't mean to rude or anything.. but build it and prove this point...

245517

You are probably right to be sceptical and maybe it can’t be done, but here is a graph to give you an idea of what I am on about. It shows a curve with higher torque lower down and tapering off as the rpm increases. You can see the power curve is relatively flat, if this feature could be extended so the bike ran corner to corner at Mt Welly without changing gears, it would make for really good punch out of the corners that the FXR's couldnt match.

245520

This is my current engine, and you can see, as I trade off top end for a plumper torque curve lower down, the power curve starts to flatten out, all we need is a way of extending it, programmable ignition and the ATAC has possibilities here.

[koba]

Instead of killing them off, a 20hp limit might actually re-vitalise strokers and make them much more competitive at Mt Welly than they are now.

Or viewed another way does this mean you guys are over focused on peak power for the primary application?
How many people are on 20hp+ diesels at mount welly?

Like AJ not trying to be rude, please take this as it is intended; as constructive conversation.

[husaberg]

I have heard talk from JC of Buckets being limited to 20hp, I guess this is a Mt Wellington safety thing as it would make no sense to limit Buckets when they run on the bigger tracks with 250’s and Street Stocks.

The exciting thing is, if you stop aiming for max hp with a Stroker its possible to make a 2-stroke tractor that can launch harder than an FXR out of the corners and have enough over rev to carry it corner to corner.


It might with some development be possible to have 20hp at 5-6,000 and hold it in a flat line all the way through to 12,000 rpm. FXR’s don't do that, they start off low and build up.

Instead of killing them off, a 20hp limit might actually re-vitalise strokers and make them much more competitive at Mt Welly than they are now.


Re the propose HP limit to 20bhp for mt Welly it would be too easily cheated. For instance a switch that looks for all money like a dipswitch on my old Husaberg controls 2 ignition curves and 2 rev limits. To enforce it you would be intending to dyno every bike every race. A bike will only go as fast as the rider twists the wrist, simple.
Re the 20hp at every rev from 6-12000 the bike my guess is it would be a animal to ride.
My cr500 for instance I doubt it is much more peak Hp than a cr250 but it has that much mid range it is sometimes, well overwelming.it also has a more limited over rev which seems to compound the effect.
what seemingly (in my addled brain at least ) makes a 4 stroke so easy to ride other the obvious firing half as often bit and excluding the engine breaking,
Is the linear power delivery. More revs equal more power.Oh and everything happens slower to.

[speedpro]

The motor I made for Dave only made 20hp(nearly) and he got fourth without trying too hard (according to him). Gary's 125 twin would be lucky to make 20hp and I don't see too many people carving him up. It'd be a pointless rule change.

[TZ350]

Or viewed another way does this mean you guys are over focused on peak power for the primary application?

Yes, your right, it turns out we have been, at MT Welly at least.

Up until recently 20+ hp 125 F4 2 strokers were not that common. Every one pretty much thought the 24mm carb rule was what was keeping them in check and with a bit more power they could blits the FXR's.

Now that we can easily get high 20's from the 125's, compaired to the long tracks like Taupo and Hamton etc we have found that for Mt Welly, there needs to be a different approach and a 20hp limit at Mt Welly may not be all that much of a handycap.

Av prefers her lower powered, but easy to ride bike at Mt Welly, as does Dave M and his Speedpro tuned MB. Easy to ride and drive out of corners seems to be the direction there, not ever bigger hp numbers.

[koba]

It'd be a pointless rule change.

It would have a point, it would just miss it! I think most rule changes really don't work as intended.

[koba]

Up until recently 20+ hp 125 F4 2 strokers were not that common. Every one pretty much thought the 24mm carb rule was what was keeping them in check and with a bit more power they could blits the FXR's.


You guys certainly have surprised and amazed a few people (me at least) with how much power you have squeezed out of the old lumps.

[kel]

Interesting conversation, couple of things to add
1. The FXR is not linear in its power delivery, its basically flat from 8 to 12.5k (all 15hp of it).
2. The ESE 2 strokes produce more power than the FXR's from 8.5k on
3. Skilled throttle control on the ESE bikes will walk all over the FXR (as seen on track with Avalon Biddle out driving me on all but one corner, and then she was probably taking it easy on that particular corner)
4. 20hp couldnt be enforced but is really only a pipe dream for the majority of FXR owners anyway.
5. Just picked up a new stator for the FXR so the bike will now rev past 10.5k :woohoo:

[RMS eng]

Interesting conversation, couple of things to add
1. The FXR is not linear, in its power delivery its basically flat from 8 to 12.5k (all 15hp of it).
2. The ESE 2 strokes produce more power than the FXR's from 8.5k on
3. Skilled throttle control on the ESE bikes will walk all over the FXR (as seen on track with Avalon Biddle out driving me on all but one corner, and then she was probably taking it easy on that particular corner)
4. 20hp couldnt be enforced but is really only a pipe dream for the majority of FXR owners anyway.
5. Just picked up a new stator for the FXR so the bike will now rev past 10.5k :woohoo:
20 HP rule is to late for over 15 years bikes up here and down the line have had more than 20HP mike G dave D,jason and others have had 22-26HP,back then no one realy let on,as the GP was the big race to win as it is now.
when we made up the 125 24mm carb rule it was never to hold them back but to make them even with 100cc water cooled bikes,i think there are more around now like ESE s fast one,because the GP is only 15-20mins not 45min like the old days,air cooled motor only start losing power after 15-20 mins.as for Kel FXR getting gapped out of a corner by AV some of that has to do with a 100kg FXR road bike frame and a 70kg alloy RSGP frame.

[F5 Dave]

Haha, yeah you guys can have all the power limits you want, but it won't make it out of Auckland. Impossible to enforce without on track dynos so I'm not sure why anyone would even bother to mention it.

[Buddha#81]

I'm more for all riders having to weigh in at 100kg.......dave you can be 90 when on the 50!:shifty:

Now that would slow the 60kg young fullas down, their skinny wee legs would snap off and shoot up their clackkas with that much extra weight.

[F5 Dave]

I'm 80 & probably a sight more in my armour & leathers.:confused: Does that make you feel better or worse?

[jasonu]

I have heard talk from JC of Buckets being limited to 20hp, I guess this is a Mt Wellington safety thing as it would make no sense to limit Buckets when they run on the bigger tracks with 250’s and Street Stocks.

I think this is a total wind up. Nothing more, nothing less.

However, if not...
From what I have read, seen and been told most of the safety issues are caused by too many bikes on track at one time. Maybe a 'C Grade' is in order. This will further seperate the faster bikes from the slower and make things safer for all. The organisers will have to make good use of the available track time to accomodate the extra class though.

[husaberg]

[QUOTE=kel;1130137732]Interesting conversation, couple of things to add
1. The FXR is not linear in its power delivery, its basically flat from 8 to 12.5k (all 15hp of it).[QUOTE]

I was a little dubious of this a looked it up but is this curve typical of a race tunned FXR150.

But I did check out your dynograph on Fzr150.co.nz and she sure is flat like a tractor.Crickey dick

I am guessing its fairly stock with this rate of delivery.

Quote KEL at FXR150.co.nz
Some of you may have heard rumors of a 29.5hp bucket, I was a bit of a skeptic so booked my FXR for some dyno time with the guys who tested this supposed beast.
Assuming I have managed to attach the dyno graph - The blue line is my FXR 16hp, Red line tuned GP125 21.7hp, green line speedpros MB100 at a staggering 29.5hp, thats 82% more power

[Gigglebutton]

I'm more for all riders having to weigh in at 100kg.......dave you can be 90 when on the 50!:shifty:

Now that would slow the 60kg young fullas down, their skinny wee legs would snap off and shoot up their clackkas with that much extra weight.

Every one under 50 years of age, should also have a KG added to their bike for every year they are under 50. :clap:

[F5 Dave]

Talking of 50, I hear that that is the new capacity limit for all buckets.:Punk: Four strokes will be allowed to stroke a couple more times, but that is all.

[husaberg]

Every one under 50 years of age, should also have a KG added to their bike for every year they are under 50. :clap:

I like the Idea,
Weight for age after all,Its aceptable to do it in horse racing and they do also handycap the riders too.and have a minimum weight too.
Also The Jockeys in horse racing are all riding mounts of the same level of horsepower.1! :laugh: Sorry I couldn't resist that one.

[richban]

Interesting conversation, couple of things to add
1. The FXR is not linear in its power delivery, its basically flat from 8 to 12.5k (all 15hp of it).

I was a little dubious of this a looked it up but is this curve typical of a race tunned FXR150.

But I did check out your dynograph on Fzr150.co.nz and she sure is flat like a tractor.Crickey dick

I am guessing its fairly stock with this rate of delivery.

Quote KEL at FXR150.co.nz
Some of you may have heard rumors of a 29.5hp bucket, I was a bit of a skeptic so booked my FXR for some dyno time with the guys who tested this supposed beast.
Assuming I have managed to attach the dyno graph - The blue line is my FXR 16hp, Red line tuned GP125 21.7hp, green line speedpros MB100 at a staggering 29.5hp, thats 82% more power[/QUOTE]

Not all engines are created equal remember.

[husaberg]

Not all engines are created equal remember.

Now thats more like it thats a real 4 stroke racing engine curve

[Yow Ling]

Not all engines are created equal remember.

Some are more equal than others !

[richban]

Now thats more like it thats a real 4 stroke racing engine curve

Its a lot better now the fueling is fixed. Might get it back on the dyno one day.

[richban]

Some are more equal than others !

True that. There are plenty of hot FXR engines out there now. Maybe its time to find something different. Something water cooled.

[husaberg]

Its a lot better now the fueling is fixed. Might get it back on the dyno one day.

I thought It must have been a shagged chain

How much do you think it would put out if it was 155cc?:laugh:Just Kidding great work.

[richban]

I thought It must have been a shagged chain

How much do you think it would put out if it was 155cc?:laugh:Just Kidding great work.

I just hope it lasts for 2 years like its 23hp older brother. Still going strong. Might give it birthday with a nice cheap Taiwanese piston. And some bigger valves.

[husaberg]

I just hope it lasts for 2 years like its 23hp older brother. Still going strong. Might give it birthday with a nice cheap Taiwanese piston. And some bigger valves.

How similar is the valve angles sizes ports combustion chambers and cams Etc are the FXR's in relation to the older GSXR's any similarities.Actually might pay to PM me as it is a 2 strokers forum I guess.

[richban]

How similar is the valve angles sizes ports combustion chambers and cams Etc are the FXR's in relation to the older GSXR's any similarities.

no idea. Have never really looked at them. I did look at the throttle bodies of the newer models for injecting it, but thought that it would just cost to much.

[richban]

Actually might pay to PM me as it is a 2 strokers forum I guess.

True sorry boys. Back to work ning ning.

[koba]

True sorry boys. Back to work ning ning.

I sense a hint of jealously...

[marsheng]

Just put Tim's bike on the Dyno at Ashburton. 20 Hp at the back wheel, it appears the race ignition opens up the power over 10K. His defiantly increases from 8 K on till 13k. Ill see if I can get a copy of the printout.

I was a bit disappointed as my Honda was only 17.5. Time to get rid of that 30 year old Carb.

[kel]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130138118] But I did check out your dynograph on Fzr150.co.nz and she sure is flat like a tractor.Crickey dick
I am guessing its fairly stock with this rate of delivery.

Oh the hurt, countless hours of modifications just to be ridiculed by my pairs. :cry:

That power delivery is perfect for kart track racing, although I wouldnt say no to another 10hp.

[F5 Dave]

Just put Tim's bike on the Dyno at Ashburton. 20 Hp at the back wheel, it appears the race ignition opens up the power over 10K. His defiantly increases from 8 K on till 13k. Ill see if I can get a copy of the printout.

I was a bit disappointed as my Honda was only 17.5. Time to get rid of that 30 year old Carb.
So seeing as only you know who Tim is, are we to assume an FXR? Still pretty good going. Not planning on water cooling the FXR Rich? How hard could it be?

[F5 Dave]

. . . just to be ridiculed by my pairs. :cry:
. . . .
Your pair of what?:confused:


Or did you mean Pears?

and if so, why is fruit being mean to you? Very curious:blink:

[kel]

Your pair of what?:confused:

You see, a pair of them just as I said. :doh:

[wobbly]

Made a start on Mikes RGV100.
Dumped the KT100 piston,deck height too high - too much case vol,ring too wide,and the skirt leaves a pair of holes thru from the Exhaust into the case when at TDC.
I ordered 6 pistons of all sorts that may look like they would fit.
How would it be that a Suzuki RM85 fits perfectly,has a single ring pinned on center allowing big B ports,and is made in 2mm O/S @ 50mm from Wiseco as a ProLite - the trick shit forgings.
I have ordered a bunch so you guys can use them if needed.
The pin is 14mm and fits the long rod we found in a book Pete Sales has,he he.
Using a manifold from an unknown source the 36mm powerjet carb goes on with a bit of cut and shut on the case.
CR125 alternator bolts straight on, to drive the 12V Ignitech for the powervalves etc - just needs a spacer and the case tapping.
Will ditch the balance shaft as the crank will need stuffers to drop the case vol, and will need re-balancing for the light 50mm piston anyway.
Cant do much more till mocking up with the new pistons,will machine the head for a center straight plug unless I can find one that goes on the RG cylinder as is.

[F5 Dave]

Very jealous, the MB needs 50.5 std bore & nothing really fits & 52 is too big without destroking. I thought the KT100S was going to be the go, but it has a crazy tall design unlike the normal KT.

Also that CC reed position is so far superior to the one on my MB. I can improve it but that big step there is perfect, - almost if it was made that way. Oh I see.:confused: it was.

[TZ350]

Very intersting looking engine that Wobbly is putting together for Yow Ling .......

Ok, this is where I am at with my carb's

245600 245601

24/38 on the left and 24/28 on the right.

The 24/38 flowed significantly more air than the 24/28 on the test rig but made no more hp on the dyno. That suggests that something else is holding it back. The 24/28 could be given a big handfull any time but the 24/38 had to be opened up with care.

245602

It has taken me all week to make the brackets etc to get the 24mm pumper carb to fit.

245599

Having a bend is not the best but at least it now tucks up out of the way. I am going to use a kart air box if I can get it to fit.

245603

A view down the hole.

Maybe I will be able to get it on the dyno next week.

I have some parts coming to make an exhaust header ATAC valve out of, so it will be interesting to see what that does for the power spread.

[TZ350]

Page 320


I wonder if this below could in fact be the infamous special Pete Sales (s.s.h.h.f.S.u.o.s.e) catalog.
http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf.
See last pages of catalog for conrods listings.


Will anything come of this?
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/


what is a better gasket sealant to use on an exhaust? I have yet to stumble across a good one.

Red Goop is good for exhausts………. High Temp Silicon


I'm using high temp o-ring and hi-temp red silicone.


I agree with spreedpro it's got to be the RED Hi-temp silicone.


I use a silicon based lubricant on the O-rings. This is hi temp & soooo slippery


Hi-Temp Red dissolves in petrol. It turns to a very soft jelly and expands.. I use Yamaha Bond or similar, or a Loctite product depending on the application if petrol is involved. The modern pump gas is particularly bad given the % of Tolulene/Tolulol.


Three Bond 1104 Liquid Gasket Grey is available from Northern Accessories, the very best and is copied as Yamabond etc.
You must remember that ANY RTV based goop is NOT fuel resistant, so will not seal anything properly that is exposed to petrol long term.
The red hi temp RTV works well on exhaust spigots etc, even works to kill noise, when beads of it are run along a chamber.


Some carbs like the OKO are strong enough to hold in the lathe but the common die cast ones are pretty soft and easily crushed by the lathe jaws. When we were machining old 22mm GP100 carbs out to 24mm we made up a split clamping ring. The hole in the center was bored offset by putting a shim under one jaw, just like Wobbly suggested.

More info on the carb boring jig and Pictures on the original post.


Here it is I wish I had the Autocourse full story

Bit of Cagiva history


Some good old clips of Mamola, mostly on Cagiva GP bikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Woms8gb6o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaQGI8GSVJM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtD_U187zv0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsTt50DgpFI&feature=related



Just something I spotted for Rob to muse over
http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/16/products_id/337

2-Stroke EFI………


The air solenoids on the RGV/RS250 type Keihin carbs are there for emmission and air fuel correction at part throttle settings.
One feeds air into the primary circuit to lean off the mixture at just off idle conditions and the second one feeds air into the emulsion tube to lean off the mixture at higher rpm/part throttle.
The switching points are set by the ECU depending upon rpm and TPS position.
The F3 race kits blocked these off, and used a different jet setup for high perf usage.

The KR3 had special carbs on a few bikes, as they had nightmares trying to get the Keihins off RS125 Honda to work running around the wrong way.They used a pump around system to keep the fuel level at a constant height.

I finally figured out what was happening when building the BSL.
The floats were being pulled down under hard braking - flooding the bowls.So I had CNC bowls made up with floats from TMX carbs running on rods, instead of pivoting.

245679


Just a note on the RGV carbs, the VJ21 used 32mm round carbs, the VJ22 Jap spec used 32x28 oval carbs (often called 30mm) and the OZ and UK spec VJ22 had the 34mm. The 32mm cant be that bad for a 125 cylinder. 125cc KZ2 kart engines make 45hp with 30mm Carbs, but if any one has a pair of 34mm RGV carbs I could be interested


Good day at Mt Welly today, weather was beautiful! Had the new rs125 pipe on and a new head which reduced the squish area down to 1mm. When I was fitting the head this morning I noticed the markings on the top of the piston, my thoughts where the carbon build up after one days racing would suggest rich mixture. However I think I was making things up and had no idea what I was thinking about as you can see the results after today in the next picture. Whoops!


245678


That hole in piston pic - have you diagnosed what the issue is,always means too much advance for the com used,or too hot plug, or both - if run with crap fuel.
1mm squish means the squish is doing nothing - wouldnt help either, if the com was increased at the same time.




Bummer, now you will have to clean out the big end (or better yet, strip the motor and replace it). As the alloy sprays straight down into the rods oiling slots and jams the rollers making them skid. If its not already to late, the bigend will need to be carefully cleaned out or your next problem will be a blown bigend.

Speedpro tells me he has had success with engine clean and the garden hose, by wiggling the crank you can feel the dirt, engine clean followed by a bit of an aggressive flush out and then I guess CRC to get rid of the water.

But however you do it, the bigend and mains need to be cleaned out.


Although I once had some alloy welded and rolled and spent like 2 days trying to get it looking ok.
The best easy source of thin wall like 1.2mm Aluminium tubing I could ever find. Its irrigation tube, mainly used one market gardens now not real farms. Ask around if your have rural mates, but cheap as by the meter at Mico's comes in 75 and 100mm. For the packing I used to just buy the fibreglass packing wool string not cloth at the car muffler shop, I do know someone who uses fibreglass cloth from inside of the shell of ovens
But $10-15 will do all the mufflers you are likely to ever use in a lifetime of racing.

If you want to get real trick the rotary guys use stainless steel turnings from a machine shop lasts forever even with a pp20b.More for the 4 smoke here though.
For the baffle I just used to spend a few minutes with the drill and a bit of exhaust tubing. This was as per the bell book for a straight through design. the end caps were steel disks welded to the baffle pipe and a flat piece welded around the disk parallel to the alloy sleeve a four flat rivets and all done I used to spring mount the pipe to the stinger also used to sand bend a pipe to curve the exit for that gp bike look, But use really dry sand .I learned that bit the hard way.


I did a heap of testing for karts to try and get the noise below the newly set Db limits.
The best muffler core material is a trade off between open area - greater open area enables the packing to absorb more "noise" and the issue of the packing being blown out thru the holes.
In the end I settled on commercially available perforated 1mm sheet steel that is easy to roll up and tack weld along the joint.
Anything with approx 2mm holes on 3mm centres is the go.
The only packing that works properly and wont get blown out easily is called SilentSport muffler packing. Its easily the best and can be bought from MotoWorks in ChCh.
The other issue tested is power. Anything but a densely packed muffler will loose power, and making the core ID the same as the OD of the stinger seemed to be the best setup as well.


S'funny I've used that silent sport stuff for a while, but get reductions in sound by switching to Daytona matting. Both in my 50 & the 500. Oh & in the dirty bike as well.

A well made reversal end cap can pull a bit of sound out as well. I also made an extension muffler to fit on the end of my existing one for a track that needed real quiet. It was a reversal followed by a short perforated section slightly bigger than the previous with another type of packing. It was quite effective & back to back on the dyno made zero difference. Only issue was it did stress the welds after a while so I swap it out with a reversal if not needed.

Don't underestimate making the thing solid as opposed to flimsy & ally doesn't 'ring' as much as steel.


One of the pistons I got to look at was a KX85 that is available as a ProLite in 50.5 mm,part No 782M05050, but has the two oil holes on the front for a bridge - maybe not an issue as TZ350 has plugged these with Belzona.
It has single ring, pinned on center - with 14mm gudgeon.
The other one also available in that size is CR85 in +3mm ,but this has two rings pinned to the side, and they may not be in the right place.


A bit out of order sorry.They go 1,4,2,5,cover,3
I do note It leaves out the BOT rides in NZ on the Mcintosh Egli vincent against the japas and dukes and the rides on the first brook henry v2 with the belt drive bevel twin as well as what he did post 89 of course.
Note the megaphone stinger on the first page of the artical before Degner defected with all the MZ know how.
Suzuiki even stole the traditional MZ colour scheme So MZ changed theres to green for Envy.
http://2strokebiker.blogspot.com/2010/01/1968-suzuki-50cc-grand-prix-roadracer.html
http://www.suzukicycles.org/history/history_04-race-1960-1967.shtml
http://www.yamahaclassictwostrokes.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=32
http://www.yamahaclassictwostrokes.nl/yamahaclassictwostrokes/index.php/en/works-v4/1967-1968-yamaha-125-ra31

PDF’s of the interview with Huge on the original post

[husaberg]

I have ordered a bunch so you guys can use them if needed.
The pin is 14mm and fits the long rod we found in a book Pete Sales has,he he.
Using a manifold from an unknown source the 36mm powerjet carb goes on with a bit of cut and shut on the case.

Count me in for one Wayne

I wonder if this below could in fact be the infamous special Pete Sales (s.s.h.h.f.S.u.o.s.e) catalog.
These would of course would have to be legal.
Afterall they are not specifically listed for any competion bikes.
See last pages of catalog for conrods listings.shhh don't tell anyone.It's a big secret :whistle:

http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf

[husaberg]

Your pair of what?:confused:


Or did you mean Pears?

and if so, why is fruit being mean to you? Very curious:blink:

You scaly wag.
Crickey Dave,It is pretty obvious That my learned colleague was in fact refering to piers of the realm. :rofl:
What ho Tootle pip.

And Re the Piston Dave seeing how you love Yamahas so so much
Why don't use use a yz100
They are window less came in single ring std (interesting the NOS wiescos seem to have 2 rings?)
They are quite comon on ebay at the moment on the downside they have a that fat Gudgen pin (16mm) that Yamahas prefer
You could use this so you would be able to feel vidicated/obligated to have to use a Yamaha rod as well.
That would ensure you are able to claim that as revenge for the evils that corperate Honda has waged against you.

[RMS eng]

Very jealous, the MB needs 50.5 std bore & nothing really fits & 52 is too big without destroking. I thought the KT100S was going to be the go, but it has a crazy tall design unlike the normal KT.

Also that CC reed position is so far superior to the one on my MB. I can improve it but that big step there is perfect, - almost if it was made that way. Oh I see.:confused: it was.

Dave, check ebay RM100 79-81 pistons have 14mm pin 77-78 have 16mm pin,KT piston look like shit.

chris
RMS eng

[wobbly]

One of the pistons I got to look at was a KX85 that is available as a ProLite in 50.5 mm,part No 782M05050, but has the two oil holes on the front for a bridge - maybe not an issue as TZ350 has plugged these with Belzona.
It has single ring, pinned on center - with 14mm gudgeon.
The other one also available in that size is CR85 in +3mm ,but this has two rings pinned to the side, and they may not be in the right place.

[husaberg]

Very intersting looking engine that Wobbly is putting together for Yow Ling .......

Ok, this is where I am at with my carb's
]
It has taken me all week to make the brackets etc to get the 24mm pumper carb to fit.

.

These might help with the tucking in of course you could use copper plumbing bends.
Neat idea on the Components for the Attac as well tz very clever.
A sourse of all sorts of chinese stuff I guess you jafa types could pop in http://stormparts.co.nz/

The TZR250 v twin carb is for wobbly. Could something like this be made to work? or too much work.

[wobbly]

The solenoid powerjet is ideal, but you do need a TPS to control the on/off sequencing.
RS250 Aprilia has an inline remote TPS on the carb cable, that could be used if a carb doesnt have one fitted on the body

[F5 Dave]

Thanks for the piston ideas guys. How many engines run centre pin over as boostport? Because they are theoretically on a symmetrical ex port there shouldn't be any twisting & I suppose the boost has a gentle lead in, at least on the way up where it is going quickest may be ok? The 256 Rotax copes doesn't it? I was surprised when I saw that (unless memory is failing me). Do you think the MB would cope running centre ring peg over a boost port?

[speedpro]

OK so far :yes:

[bucketracer]

Not the best practice but the Team ESE engines fitted with KX125 pistons run the ring gap over one of the secondary ports, we do give the port a good wedge shaped champher though, been OK so far, touch wood.

When TeeZee was running TZ pistons in RD cylinders he said the ring gap ran in the rear boost port, never had any trouble.

[wobbly]

The ring pinned on center setup is the best way to do it.
As the ring drops into the Ex port at its widest point, then is pushed back in by the corner rads,having the gap dead opposite the Ex means the ring moves symetrically in the groove.
The ring ends contact the pin at the same time,thus preventing any issues with one end banging on the pin continually from one side.
As long as the boost has a nice chamfer on its top edge all is fine with the ring ends.

[F5 Dave]

Good enough for me. Thanks.

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, strange, the std bore Wiseco KX85 47.5s look like they are a single ring different casting & the big bores look like a 2 ring. Hard to tell from some of the generic photos Denis Kirk or Ebayers put up, but that was impression I got. Ohh I know I'll look at Wiseco site. . . .no pic. At least they list the rings separately which was a concern. But no comment on how many are in a kit.

Wonder what wiseco rings intended for electrofusion are like on steel bore? I know Kawi ones wear steel bores like better.

[Yow Ling]

Wonder what wiseco rings intended for electrofusion are like on steel bore? I know Kawi ones wear steel bores like better.

Steel or cast iron?

[TZ350]

ATAC


245785 245786 245787

Easy ATAC Valve from an old Chev or Holden carb.

The butterfly part of this carb is made of cast iorn, the plan is to machine it down with a spigot and braze it with the butterfly valve into the exhaust header and bolt a can on top.

[Gigglebutton]

Yay Rs frame arived from Aus today. Should be on the F4 grid in about a year when Wobs works out what motor to use. :)

[bucketracer]

Is that the one you got for $350 and a round of drinks for a man in a Pub out Western Australia way, who was sick of his ex son in laws shit cluttering up his shed. And I hear shipping it all back in a friends container was non to expensive either. What sort of engine? finish that TF with an RGV 100 cylinder project or perhaps something special with one of those RG50's.

A round of drinks!!!!! that has got to be check book racing at its worst ........... :facepalm:

[Henk]

Have you considered putting a Loncin in it?

[Buddha#81]

Have you considered putting a Loncin in it?

or a 3hp 148cc Briggs horizontal shaft with 3 speed BSA box?

[Buckets4Me]

Yay Rs frame arived from Aus today. Should be on the F4 grid in about a year when Wobs works out what motor to use. :)

now thats not in the spirit of Bucket racing
thats more like box racing to me
Box of shit just dosent have the same ring to it :laugh::wings::drinknsin

[Yow Ling]

You guys should hang your heads in shame, didnt you read the dont chop up a RS for a bucket thread. All you can do now is put a huge diesel in it and all will be forgiven. Get a Wobbly RG100 for it, thats what the little voices are saying

[speedpro]

Yay Rs frame arived from Aus today. Should be on the F4 grid in about a year when Wobs works out what motor to use. :)

Oooooh, spare wheels

[speedpro]

Yay Rs frame arived from Aus today. Should be on the F4 grid in about a year when Wobs works out what motor to use. :)

Don't forget to post pics of you hacking bits off it :dodge:

[bucketracer]

Don't forget to post pics of you hacking bits off it

Could make a video and post it on You Tube .........

[speedpro]

Could make a video and post it on You Tube .........

With his name and address

[gav]

or a 3hp 148cc Briggs horizontal shaft with 3 speed BSA box?
woohoo, v twin! build a guzzi replica
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-400040097.htm
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/24/183919324_full.jpg

[Bert]

woohoo, v twin! build a guzzi replica
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-400040097.htm
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/24/183919324_full.jpg

100cc---> Turbo it.... you might get to 12Hp:laugh:

[quallman1234]

Some reasonabley detailed photo's in this ebay auction...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-RSV-KIT-Cylinder-Honda-HRC-RS125-NX4-GP-Racing-VHM-/110722983343?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c79aa5af

Could be of some interest.

[Gigglebutton]

With his name and address

So over you stalking me :nono:

[kel]

Oooooh, spare wheels

What about the forks, I see at least 3 sets.

[Gigglebutton]

What about the forks, I see at least 3 sets.

1 set of each for the RS. 1 rear shock for my RG50. I have to settle some dets with the rest

[jasonu]

Yay Rs frame arived from Aus today. Should be on the F4 grid in about a year when Wobs works out what motor to use. :)

Looks like some stuff I saw on Aussie Ebay a couple of months ago.

[Gigglebutton]

Looks like some stuff I saw on Aussie Ebay a couple of months ago.

The guy is the vice president of Aus buckets. He pulled the listing and we cut a deal for all the bits when i said it was for a bucket. Nice bloke, really helpful.

[koba]

The guy is the vice president of Aus buckets. He pulled the listing and we cut a deal for all the bits when i said it was for a bucket. Nice bloke, really helpful.

Should try get him over here for a GP or BoB.

[Gigglebutton]

Should try get him over here for a GP or BoB.

He's keen as to race here and us to race there. We may be up against it, with the motor they run. He recons 30hp 4 strokes over there. Here's the link to their site

http://www.ozbucketracing.com/

[koba]

He's keen as to race here and us to race there. We may be up against it, with the motor they run. He recons 30hp 4 strokes over there. Here's the link to their site

http://www.ozbucketracing.com/

The way to do it would be to use the bikes of the host country, work some way to make loaning viable, such ans endurance event with multiple riders per bike.

Anyway, this has been mentioned before, I'm sure it will happen one day.

I'm going to shut up now and let the ESE boys have their thread back.

[gav]

He's keen as to race here and us to race there. We may be up against it, with the motor they run. He recons 30hp 4 strokes over there. Here's the link to their site

http://www.ozbucketracing.com/

Was/is that Ken Lindsay? Isnt he an ex Kiwi? I see an RGV250 with an XR200 motor there. :shifty: RS125 rolling chassis with Honda MX CRF150r 4valve motor fitted. :shit: RS85R's .... certainly different rules to what we run ....

Wow, his CB150 is a work of art too, cool idea with the rear shock mounts too
http://www.ozbucketracing.com/building_a_works_bucketracer.html

[breezy]

pit-lane.biz ......gp125 from top of page ... view aprillia 125 characteristics page 22 on wards although some of the posts are in french , their are some very interesting 2 stroke tuning posts by a fella called fitzs overmars regarding 2 stroke engine developement... would just like to say ive enjoyed reading all of the posts from this ese thread and all the info which has been freely given...thanks, from the land of milk and honey(england)

[Gigglebutton]

Was/is that Ken Lindsay? Isnt he an ex Kiwi? I see an RGV250 with an XR200 motor there. :shifty: RS125 rolling chassis with Honda MX CRF150r 4valve motor fitted. :shit: RS85R's .... certainly different rules to what we run ....

Wow, his CB150 is a work of art too, cool idea with the rear shock mounts too
http://www.ozbucketracing.com/building_a_works_bucketracer.html

Trevor Lusby is the bloke i dealt with. They changed their rules to make it cheaper to race and the bikes are not 30 years old and hard to get parts for

[ac3_snow]

I have more foolish question for all you wise ones out there :scratch:

there is a few small pieces of melted piston smeared around the top of my barrel. It looks ok once I can get this off, no big scratches. I was recommended to use liquid soldering flux, or caustic soda. Got a small bottle of liquid flux today and put a little on and...... nothing. I will try leaving it on overnight and see if that has more effect. Has any one done this before is there a crucial step I'm missing or just need more time?

Also one of the bearings has left an interesting mark on the crank. Doesn't seem to be an issue, I'v so far put it down to 'shit happens' but maybe someone can shed some light as to the cause?
245940245939

ps. while crank is out I'm going to polish the journals so crank is floating as per Wobbly's suggestion. Maybe try those flash pheno-lick bearings too if I have the funds.

[TZ350]

there is a few small pieces of melted piston smeared around the top of my barrel. It looks ok once I can get this off, no big scratches. I was recommended to use liquid soldering flux, or caustic soda. Got a small bottle of liquid flux today and put a little on and...... nothing.

245939


Both work, your on the right track, keep the alloy crap wet, use cotton buds or similar, takes time, barrel will go a little rusty, clean up with wet and dry, clean up afterwards with hot soapy water and rinse off with hot fresh water.


Also one of the bearings has left an interesting mark on the crank. Doesn't seem to be an issue, I'v so far put it down to 'shit happens' but maybe someone can shed some light as to the cause?

245940

ps. while crank is out I'm going to polish the journals so crank is floating as per Wobbly's suggestion. Maybe try those flash pheno-lick bearings too if I have the funds.

A brown mark like that is often seen when the brg is loose (floating) on the shaft. On a TF/TS the drive side with the nut shouldn't float, the magneto side should be the floater.

[F5 Dave]

caustic soda on a damp rag left overnight. Use gloves & eye protection, this seemingly innocuous stuff can be dangerous. Avail from supermarket. Doesn't last forever but lasts years if kept dry.

Keep away from ally. ok on steel bores. May be an issue on plated ally bores as it could potentially seep though the plating & attack the ally behind (that is just a theory).

[husaberg]

I have more foolish question for all you wise ones out there :scratch:

there is a few small pieces of melted piston smeared around the top of my barrel. It looks ok once I can get this off, no big scratches. I was recommended to use liquid soldering flux, or caustic soda. Got a small bottle of liquid flux today and put a little on and...... nothing. I will try leaving it on overnight and see if that has more effect. Has any one done this before is there a crucial step I'm missing or just need more time?

Also one of the bearings has left an interesting mark on the crank. Doesn't seem to be an issue, I'v so far put it down to 'shit happens' but maybe someone can shed some light as to the cause?
245940245939

ps. while crank is out I'm going to polish the journals so crank is floating as per Wobbly's suggestion. Maybe try those flash pheno-lick bearings too if I have the funds.

I am old but not to wise. I have seen talk of people using Muriatic acid.I have no experience of using it though
It would seem to be Hydrochloric acid by another name so be cafeful.
Available from the Chem. lab at the uni of your choice for free I believe. What are you studying at Uni Snow. Ornithology ,The effects of Acohol on adolescent girls I guess and ?

I copied this from the net so a grain of salt may be required.I do note that NZ cylinders recomend it for plated cylinders.so it can't be too bad

If the piston has seized and smeared aluminum on the cylinder you will need to remove it before you measure it. You can do this with Muriatic acid. Just take medicine dropper and put just a few drops on the aluminum that has been smeared in the cylinder. The acid will eat the aluminum but will not hurt the steel of the cylinder. DO NOT GET THE ACID ON YOU . If you do get it on yourself, water and baking soda will get it off. Also don't get it on any aluminum unless you want that aluminum eaten up ! You can get Muriatic Acid at any home improvement store. They sell it buy the gallon, which will do about a billion cylinders. I'm not sure what they use it for... swimming pools or something.

[TZ350]

pit-lane.biz ......gp125 from top of page ... view aprillia 125 characteristics page 22 on wards although some of the posts are in french , their are some very interesting 2 stroke tuning posts by a fella called fitzs overmars regarding 2 stroke engine developement... would just like to say ive enjoyed reading all of the posts from this ese thread and all the info which has been freely given...thanks, from the land of milk and honey(england)

Thankyou for your interest, Team ESE ...........

Although this thread is mostly about 2-strokes because that is what we have, any serious engine tuning/development effort is interesting and your welcome to post technical tit bits about your own projects if you like.

[bucketracer]

Muriatic Acid, aquas solution of Hydrochloric acid

From Wiki

Hydrochloric acid is a solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution) of hydrogen chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_chloride) (H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen)Cl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine)) in water, that is a highly corrosive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosive), strong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_acid) mineral acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_acid) with many industrial uses. It is found naturally in gastric acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid). Also called muriatic acid, or historically spirits of salt, hydrochloric acid was produced from vitriol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid) (sulfuric acid) and common salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride).

I think this is what is in those green bottles of soldering salts that you can get at hardware stores.

[speedpro]

245940245939

ps. while crank is out I'm going to polish the journals so crank is floating as per Wobbly's suggestion. Maybe try those flash pheno-lick bearings too if I have the funds.

Just a guess without knowing all that you have done but I bet that engine vibrates like hell in the higher revs. They are balanced at the factory to be good for the Cow Cockies, about 4-7000rpm, and you have taken more weight out effectively increasing the counterbalance, which means it will be better at lower revs

[bucketracer]

...... the 'balance factor' was only 29% and with an ideal range of 50-65% it took a fair bit of strategically placed drilling to get the counterbalance weight about right for a 55% balance factor......


Just a guess without knowing all that you have done but I bet that engine vibrates like hell in the higher revs. They are balanced at the factory to be good for the Cow Cockies, about 4-7000rpm, and you have taken more weight out effectively increasing the counterbalance, which means it will be better at lower revs

The way TeeZee tells it, it was a surprise to him too, he was expecting AC_Snow to have to drill the counterbalance area.

245956

But when Snow initially checked it, he found out not much of the reciprocating mass was counterbalanced. It turns out that its nearly a full circle crank with hardly any counterbalance weight at all. The original holes were little more than equal to the big end pin and only 29% of the reciprocating mass was actually counter balanced. Makes sense when you think of the reduced forces involved in a slower revving TF.

Now that a few extra holes have been drilled around the big end eye more (55%) of the reciprocating mass is now counterbalanced.

And the alloy plug was to help with getting the reactive mass of the counterbalance symmetrical about the big end pin. Suzuki seem rather fond of asymmetric counterbalances, GP's TS's RM's and I guess other Suzukis from the 70-80's have them too.

A full circle crank that has no counterbalance actually has a negative balance factor with the bigend adding to the reciprocating forces instead of the counterbalance subtracting from them.

[husaberg]

Just a guess without knowing all that you have done but I bet that engine vibrates like hell in the higher revs. They are balanced at the factory to be good for the Cow Cockies, about 4-7000rpm,

I have Never seen a cow cocky spin to 7000rpm.
I have wound quite a few of them up over the years and witnessed the odd cocky siezure and blown gasket as a result.
I too have noticed most of the Cow cockies are an unbalanced lot.
I think it is due to the B.S.E and the ETS rather than Team E.S.E:whistle:

The steel frame to Alloy frame changes the factor needed to balance too as well as any changes in the way it is mounted in the frame.
If you want to feel vibrations insert cr500 engine in alloy frame and then delete the head steedy. It could remove teeth as well as the fillings.refit a sturdy head stay= A okish

Re the flux I did not know that, kind of makes sense.To clean off the impurity's use strong acid solution.

Not really aplicable to a 2 stroke single, but the Air NZ workshop in CHCH used Dynamic balance the crankshafts as well as doing manaflux cracktesting and peening etc of quite a few old british Twins I supose the chinese wouldn't be able to do that for us now would they.Bloody out sourcing and global economy.

[koba]

If you want to feel vibrations insert cr500 engine in alloy frame...

Jimmy had one of those.
My bucket started life with a KLR600 engine. Vibration was unbelievable!

[speedpro]

The original holes were little more than equal to the big end pin and only 29% of the reciprocating mass was actually counter balanced. Makes sense when you think of the reduced forces involved in a slower revving TF.

Actually 29% would be a factor for VERY high revs. At the far opposite end 100% would be perfect at 0rpm, just to illustrate which factors work at which RPMs.

[husaberg]

Actually 29% would be a factor for VERY high revs. At the far opposite end 100% would be perfect at 0rpm, just to illustrate which factors work at which RPMs.

Already posted but quite apt Phil Irving 1948

It is quite useless to postulate any particular balance factor as being ideal: So many considerations enter into the matter that it varies with almost every design of engine, or even the type of frame in which engines of the same kind are mounted. That being so do not be mislead into balancing your engine just because one of your pals with an entirely different machine thinks he has some magic formula of his own.
Phil goes on to offer a sugestion for trialing in situ the balance factors. that could work on some engines.this one below i found on a troll through the net.

BALANCING SINGLE CYLINDER ENGINEShttp://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/technical_balancing.htm

[breezy]

thanks for the welcome tz350, should i come across anything of interest i will certainly post, as we all know its a small world... (as ive not made enough postings im unable to answer any pm s. sorry gb)

[Buckets4Me]

thanks for the welcome tz350, should i come across anything of interest i will certainly post, as we all know its a small world... (as ive not made enough postings im unable to answer any pm s. sorry gb)

any info on the bikes you have had still have or would like to have
specialy if you have raced them or restored them

that way your post count goes up :laugh:

as far as getting ally out of the barrel soldering flux Duzzel worked for me
I had to poore it on and leave a puddle of it on the ally (within half an hour it was starting to bubble ish) the wipped it off and started again. the barrel turned allsorts of colours from green to black.

[wobbly]

Here is next stage of RGV100 work.
Pic is of a 125 kart engine, and same idea done to the RG to smooth flow from the reed box into the transfer ducts.When I get some Devcon it will look alot nicer.
I will build this up to reduce the case vol,but as well to reduce the big area in front of the reed,that drops the velocity of the streams exiting the reed tips.

And the cutout in the case to fit the electronic carb.

[TZ350]

Making some progress with my ATAC valve.

245995

Used the cast iron part off the bottom of an old Chev carb.

245996

And machined it down, next step is to shape it and braze it into the header. I aim to get the butterfly level with the inside of the header and as close to the manifold as possible.

[husaberg]

Here is next stage of RGV100 work.
Pic is of a 125 kart engine, and same idea done to the RG to smooth flow from the reed box into the transfer ducts.When I get some Devcon it will look alot nicer.
I will build this up to reduce the case vol,but as well to reduce the big area in front of the reed,that drops the velocity of the streams exiting the reed tips.

And the cutout in the case to fit the electronic carb.

Nice work as always Wob has the rod been modified or is it factory machined like that around the big end eye?

Looking at the pics I am struck by two things.
the crankcase looks remarkably similar to the untrained eye to a Swissauto/ROC engine.but I think they did it to shop charge robbing with the shared crankcases between cylinders?
Second thing is I guess crankcase comp is going to be well up or is it just because it will be 100cc rather than 125cc?

note the engine weight of the Swissauto/ROC 39kgs

[Yow Ling]

Thats pretty amazing work Wobbly, I was wondering what kind of stuffers you were going to put into there. Kinda destroyed any ideas I had about the insides of the engine.

[speedpro]

I wonder about the oil supply to the bearings with the crank being partially covered over.

[koba]

I wonder about the oil supply to the bearings with the crank being partially covered over.

I did too, but the I noted the big main bearing feeds and I guess the big end would be OK too...

[ac3_snow]

But when Snow initially checked it.....

Much better said than I could manage. Engine runs a whole lot smoother now, still cracked the last exhaust but that was because it wasn't rubber mounted, more than the engine vibrating too much. New pipe is spring and rubber mounted now, holds up well. Might consider adding...or removing a little weight to see what happens.

Liquid flux I got is working ok, just need to soak it for a good few hours then it picks off fairly easy. Stuff I got is only 7.5% hydrochloric acid so takes a little while.

Interesting crank cases

[wobbly]

The oiling isnt an issue if you look at the SwissAuto and the kart engine, they simply have a hole - down from the case duct.The big end/washers are directly exposed to the incoming flow so no problem there.
I believe the hole simply allows the pulsing flows in the case to access the bearing from the crank side - if the bearing was in a blind pocket,there would be no reason for the suspended oil mix to flow into the closed cavity.
The SwissAuto is basically the same engine as was used by the Pulse Team,Bill Buckley owns one so I know all about the insides of those.
Case reed engines always used to have large volumes,and the RG when a 125 was too big anyway - so reducing the swept volume down to 100cc means we run into even more of an issue.
The latest engines like CR250 have a very small ,wide rectangular "window" from the reed box into the case,so I am trying to replicate something similar.
I will fill in the floor in front of the reed and continue this higher floor thru over the covers - next is some alloy plates screwed onto the crank,around the pin, to simulate a full circle web,and when the pistons arrive - do the balancing.
Using alloy will increase the crank inertia,good for drive out of corners and adds to overev power.

Edit - read here - interesting 2T developments http://www.european-2strokecup.com/

[husaberg]

Edit - read here - interesting 2T developments http://www.european-2strokecup.com/

Anyone remember the diehards eccentrics who used to race there outclassed 4 strokes in events such as the Thumper Nats.
How times have changed. not for the better I might add 2 strokes killed of in most forms of competition based on unfair rules and dubious science based on emissions .
It seems the two strokes are the eccentrics now.It's not fair.

[wobbly]

Dont call me eccentric - cheaky fucker - my hole is in the MIDDLE.

[husaberg]

Dont call me eccentric - cheaky fucker - my hole is in the MIDDLE.

When anyone quotes a claim posting of a pic of it is required. I say please no picture please Wob

Plus any more than 2 stroke's is Masturbation too.

re the coment below I read the entire thread it took a about a month but the thread tools option is certainly a good way to speed things up.You can also maximise the posts per page too speed things up ie less pages to look through.

[Grumph]

I haven't read the entire thread - I doubt anyone could - but balance factor discussion caught my eye.
The "conventional" factor of 50% plus works on upright cylinders - it makes them shake in the plane of the cylinder, ie up and down...this is generally the preferred direction as most frames are capable of damping vibrations in ths plane.
On horizontal cylinders an inverse balance factor is used. 25 - 28% works very well.This will make the motor shake at right angles to the plane of the cylinder...ie the preferred "up and down" direction...
FWIW I understand that parallel twin TZ's were around 33%....angled cylinders do make a difference.
It ain't simple....

[bucketracer]

From the twostrokeshop

I don't want to lapse into too much tech-babble here; suffice to say, a crank that is 'under-balanced', such as the YPVS/Banshee crank, tends to create oscillations/vibrations in the vertical plane. This, for anyone who has ever converted an LC or YPVS 250 to a 350, is exactly the type of stronger vibrations you feel when switching from the 250 to the 350.

A crank's Balance Factor is typically expressed as a percentage figure. Normally the balance factor on a twin such as the RD is set at 50% to 55% of the total reciprocating mass - in this case 342g - so this would need 171g for the 50% case and 188g for the 55% case.

More on crank balance here. http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RZRD350_Banshee_TSS_Crankshafts.htm#sermon

Interesting look at TZ cranks. http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RZRD350_Banshee_TSS_Crankshafts.htm

And the different wear results of different B/E brg cages. http://www.twostrokeshop.com/peek_coated_big_end_bearing.htm

[bucketracer]

I think someone has posted this before, but I couldn't find it so here it is again.

http://www.saltmine.org.uk/shoeman/shoeman.html

Interesting read about tuning RD's.

[Yow Ling]

Heres an interesting crankcase pumped diesel. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/02/03/ellwood-hybrid-single-cylinder-reed-valve-intercooled-4-stroke-engine/

[Yow Ling]

Not much on TV tonight I found these on the net

246083246082

[husaberg]

Not much on TV tonight I found these on the net

246083246082

Seeing it is a slow news night have a look here some intersting stuff in the gudgeon pin stuffers and the scilencers and carbs etc.
http://www.villiers.info/Go to the tunning info bit on the left.

An excert of the gudeon pin stuffers are here.

As the piston descends and before the transfer ports are uncovered, a hollow gudgeon pin will bleed off some of the primary pressure that you have fought to create. The hollow pins should be plugged with an alloy slug or slugs which should have no more than a 1 thou clearance fit and be coated with Loctite or similar. Interference fits will swell the gudgeon pin causing fitment problems. The lack of interference fit is required to allow the Locktite to key and bond, a zero or interference fit will not allow the Locktite to work properly. At racing speeds, the difference in power can be measured on the dynamometer

Old school real deal Lab seals


When the Greeves Silverstone was first introduced it was recommended that the crank seals were changed after every meeting, as the wear rate was so high on the racing engine. The modern solution is to use Teflon coated oil seals. Before the times of Teflon coatings, Brian Woolley came up with an answer that not only worked but increased the time between servicing. His method entailed the use of Honda C50 piston rings to form labyrinth seals in place of the rubber seals. The rings were held in position by a steel sleeve which was a press fit into the crankcase, running in a slotted alloy carrier that rotated with the crank, the rings stopping any gas flow much in the same way that they do on the piston. As the seals on the standard 9E cases are smaller than the Greeves cases this modification may be a difficult one to embody without resorting to machining the seal housings, but for someone with machining know how it may be a feasible project. On the drive side the labyrinth seal can be located between the two bearings, the slotted carrier doubling as the bearing spacer. The original rubber seal can be left in position, and the outer bearing fed with lubricant from an external reservoir, or fed from the primary chaincase. The same technique can be employed on the timing side, if the 11E double bearing set up is used.

[ac3_snow]

And the different wear results of different B/E brg cages. http://www.twostrokeshop.com/peek_coated_big_end_bearing.htm

Thats quite interesting. does anyone use these, PEEK coated bearings, are they available as little end as well?
While on the topic of bearings.. Does any one use these 'cylindrical roller bearings' I realise that buckets obviously don't acheive any where near the high horse power they are refering to at twostrokeshop, but would they have an increased life over roller ball bearings?
taken from "http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RZRD350_Banshee_TSS_Crankshafts.htm"
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/TSS_crankshafts_diagram.jpg




An excert of the gudeon pin stuffers are here.


Also very interesting! Wonder if a bit of epoxy to fill in the ends would last a while.

[husaberg]

Also very interesting! Wonder if a bit of epoxy to fill in the ends would last a while.

F5 dave mentioned earlier teflon or similar buttons i think

[Kickaha]

F5 dave mentioned earlier teflon or similar buttons i think

Chocolate buttons?

[Yow Ling]

Chocolate buttons?

Would need to be matched with the chocolate valves in your GN

[husaberg]

Would need to be matched with the chocolate valves in your GN

The origional honda Vf750 f and s had chocolate cams if that helps.

[Kickaha]

Would need to be matched with the chocolate valves in your GN

It's only happened twice and no one will let me forget

Now how many choclate FXR cranks have you killed?

[bucketracer]

Chocolate Pistons

246105

Gudgeon pin damage seen when a circlip has been left out or come right out.

246106 246107

For what its worth, my guess is that a tang has broken off a circlip possibly by hammering from the pin due to a bent rod.

See page 10 http://www.mlcmotorfactors.co.uk/Trouble%20Tracers/PistonTT.pdf

The damage is caused by the tang rattling around like a jack hammer at the ends of the stroke. The damage is both sides as the tang can rattle its way back and forth through the hollow little end pin. And the damage is wider than the gudgeon because the piston is relieved on the sides. Debris rattling around like this typically leave the piston pin hole looking melted.

Links to PDF's on Piston Damage.
http://www.boosttown.com/engine/piston_damage.pdf
http://www.ms-motor-service.es/ximages/ks_50003973-02_web_leseprobe.pdf

OK so its 4-stroke and I had posted it in another thread but has been posted again here to keep a copy of all the ESE tec posts in one place.

(http://www.mlcmotorfactors.co.uk/Trouble%20Tracers/PistonTT.pdf)

[wobbly]

All that balance stuff on the Twostrokeshop site I did 3 years ago when starting the TSS500 project.
I was amazed when checking the RZ balance factors,and then found that someone at Yamaha also did it properly when designing the RD400, as it is set at 55% in both the drilled and leaded crank versions.
The stroker cranks I have for the RZ/LC all have Peek big ends,with Mallory balance weights,and I have the roller mains in stock.
The roller mains do have slightly more friction but will handle over twice the loading
,and last forever.
No one has tried Peek on the small ends as far as I know - but I have special silver plated small end bearings for the RZ/LC/Banshee.

[husaberg]

All that balance stuff on the Twostrokeshop site I did 3 years ago when starting the TSS500 project.
I was amazed when checking the RZ balance factors,and then found that someone at Yamaha also did it properly when designing the RD400, as it is set at 55% in both the drilled and leaded crank versions.
The stroker cranks I have for the RZ/LC all have Peek big ends,with Mallory balance weights,and I have the roller mains in stock.
The roller mains do have slightly more friction but will handle over twice the loading
,and last forever.
No one has tried Peek on the small ends as far as I know - but I have special silver plated small end bearings for the RZ/LC/Banshee.

In this Pic you can see Benelli for thier 250cc 4 stroke 4 cylinder came up with an interesting crankshaft design . It was a built up design with cadged roller bearing and revved to over 16000rpm.(Carruthers went on to work with Team KR much later) did OK on it. The crankcase design was pretty unique for the time with a cassette gearbox.
Have a look at the internal cut outs in the big picture of the crankshaft .Note the flywheels appear removable from the crankpin's cum-mainshafts.
With regards to the Yamaha based twins.
A couple of the 250 single based twins. That were built up to go against the over-bored 350 yams in the 60's and 70's. These engines were arranged not as 180 degree twins but as 360 degrees so they fired together. I guess it was to reduce the rocking vibrations as the crankshafts would have been very long.The Yankee for dirt,from two Ossas, the Farhon was 2 x Greeves Silverstone( Spondon later) and the DMW typhoon was two Starmaker's or Enfield GP5's all, I believe used 360 degree cranks.The Suzuki T500 titan/Cobra and the Suzuki big triples I understand had offset transfers which overlapped between the cylinders to decrease the width.The TSS500 had an option for 90 degrees but Wob's but i think said fuel robbing occured?.PS spell check is now working.Just need the punctuation pixie now.

[wobbly]

The 90* crank versions I built for the TSS500 was an embarrassing nightmare.
The crank force simulation shows 31% less rocking couple and way less forces on the mains.
The first one I tested was absolutely fine vibration wise,but in reality it had,by shear chance an unbalanced prototype flywheel on it.
The two pistons rising to TDC close together create a vertical shake that vibes the bars like hell.
This can be offset by creating an opposite force in the flywheel,as I tested this by clamping a hose clip onto the ignition,with the screw positioned 1/2 way opposite between the two pistons at TDC.
But this "fix" creates a huge rotating out of balance force on one end of the crank - and the RZ case has enough trouble maintaining main bearing crush on a balanced assembly, without pounding it to death running an out of balance flywheel.
The carbs and bars vibrate enough to froth the fuel without soft manifolds - so the idea was dropped ( on my head).

[speedpro]

That's something lots of people don't understand. The huge forces don't go away, they are opposed, sometimes within the crank assembly and sometimes by a seperate rotating assembly. BMW of course used a seperate reciprocating assembly. The crank assembly counters reciprocating forces in one direction only and when there isn't any reciprocating force to counteract, at 90 degrees, it actually introduces an unopposed force. If a seperate rotating assembly is used for counterbalance then all the forces act through the crankcases and they can be large. The actual forces on bearings caused by the production of power are insignificant compared to the forces created by the movement of the parts whether reciprocating of rotating.
Any 90 degree engine with an even number of cylinders is great for this problem as there is forces acting at 90 degrees which balance out just sweet.

[husaberg]

The two pistons rising to TDC close together create a vertical shake that vibes the bars like hell.
This can be offset by creating an opposite force in the flywheel,as I tested this by clamping a hose clip onto the ignition,with the screw positioned 1/2 way opposite between the two pistons at TDC.

Balance with The hose clip innovative. These three engines I used were went to be like jackhamers until they were timed to fire as a single I have no idea why they ran smoother firing as a single I will try and find the articles as to why but I guess they didn't know why either other than the rocking.I understand it makes no sense.
In a single couldn't a narrow single couldn't experiments be carried out for balance factors on the ignition rotor as wobbly did. I am picturing something light a stealthy flywheel weight bolted on might not work on a a inner rotor type.
Attached is the Irving article on a 76 degree firing parallel twin crankshaft.

below is a exert from flashback fabrications on a Aemacchi Single balance.

I was concerned about the balance factor, as I had just added about 100 grams to the crankpin, rod, and piston... I talked to Rudolf about this. He said balance factor for an Aermacchi is all just theory. He said put it together and just use it. He talked about someone in Germany who went to great trouble to make a very beautiful, modern-style "pork chop" flywheel for an Aermacchi. It was very light, and promised more power! In reality, it vibrated terribly, and they tried every balance factor from 15% to 40%, and nothing worked. Finally, they went back to the stock flywheel, and it was a great improvement. Rudolf also spent 900 Euros on getting one of his flywheels balanced, and it wasn't any better than before.
This stuff relates to balance factors differing according to the frame thay are in.I do note the Commando and the Atlas were very much the same engine but the Commando is rubber mounted in its std frame and on a 20 odd degree angle in its std frame.

Featherbed Commando balanced to 52%
Having finally got the 750cc Commando engined Featherbed vintage racer finished, I have the following observations to state. The Featherbed handling is far superior to the Commando, (even with a Norvil headsteady). The vibration level is nearly intolerable at 6500 - 7000 r.p.m. but the engine still has the Commando balance factor of 52%, not the 84%[?] of the Atlas. The 90 degree crankshaft seems even more inviting now; the best of both worlds
Featherbed Commando balanced to 77%
I have a 750cc Commando motor in a Wideline Featherbed frame. The motor was rebalanced at 77% prior to buildup. I am running the bike in its 2nd. season, and last week ran the revs up to 6800 r.p.m.. Yes, it was a bit buzzy, but not much more than a standard Triumph twin in the same rev band. You will never get it to run as smooth as an isolastic setup, but hey, its a rigid mount!. I am not at all displeased with the motor performance!
Featherbed Commando should be balanced to ca. 70%
Go for a 70% balance factor à la 650SS. This recommendation is from John Hudson of the NOC. The 52% balance factor will likely break everything on the bike if you leave it that way. The best thing would be to have the crank dynamically balanced for smooth running at the speed you want to use it most; this may vary from the 70% quoted. If you can't afford that, then balance it statically.

[wobbly]

Irving got the math wrong - the best layout for a vertical twin is firing at 90* as one piston is stopped and the other is at full noise,1/2 stroke.
Several late model engines are built like this, and they achieve "big bang" as well to increase off corner grip and better rider feel of the contact patch.
They vibe way less than any variation of 2 cylinders on the same plane.
The best is Bartols parallel twin in the KTM250GP,it has a balance shaft to kill all the vibes ,and reverses the crank rotation to reduce gyro precession forces as well.
I will try,one day, to spread the opposing out of balance force needed, right across a crank, just to see what happens.

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=wobbly;
Several late model engines are built like this, and they achieve "big bang" as well to increase off corner grip and better rider feel of the contact patch.
[/QUOTE]

I recall Mic Doohan saying big bang engine was no better than the regular engine except no one else had one and it sent them all in a spin trying to replicate it and therefore distracted them from the real goal.

[husaberg]

Irving got the math wrong - the best layout for a vertical twin is firing at 90* as one piston is stopped and the other is at full noise,1/2 stroke.
Several late model engines are built like this, and they achieve "big bang" as well to increase off corner grip and better rider feel of the contact patch.
They vibe way less than any variation of 2 cylinders on the same plane.
The best is Bartols parallel twin in the KTM250GP,it has a balance shaft to kill all the vibes ,and reverses the crank rotation to reduce gyro precession forces as well.
I will try,one day, to spread the opposing out of balance force needed, right across a crank, just to see what happens.

Not convinced he got it wrong. He just came up with a different solution.That's the beauty of balance discussions, they have two sides,:yes:
British race twins Nourish and SRM's and many others had 90/270 cranks 25 years or more before the Yams. Plus plenty of people have done the 76 crank with the same results too. Personally I prefer Ducatis solution with the Supermono the best.A bit hard to accommodate on a two stroke though.Added the BMW version too. With the 180 degree crank Val Page's 6/1Triumph had one prewar.
My favorite twin was Ian Cramps (from FB) twin crank overlapping 90 degree twin.Just throw in a jack-shaft for contra-rotation of the second cylinder. Plus reverse his rear cylinder cause his inlets were ugly.
PS has anyone seen the twin to 8 design with the hinged outer cylinders, balance that one.http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/10/14/ducati-elenore-v8-update/

Re Jasons comments above I think that was Doohan's Physcological mind trick. Like going back to the pre big bang engine when no one left in GP's then had the skills to ride them.The big bang was less about outright speed, more drive-ability leading to better lap times and not getting spat off and injured.
Quote Alan Cathcart:


"Developments of the 91 NSR 500 focused around Doohan testing a number of designs as HRC shifted their main push behind the new up and comer... For some while Doohan had been asking engineers to replicate the wide power band characteristic of the RVF750 4 stroke endurance bike, which he and Gardner had used to lead the previous summer's Suzuka 8 Hours... HRC answer was the 2 stroke equivalent of the the 4 stroke Big Bang... technically speaking all four cylinders fried within 70 degrees toafford the tire more time to hook up...""Consider and instant success by Gardner "Jesus, this is amazing" but Doohan was a doubter... the 92 NSR droning big bang had a very flat exhaust note which made it sound slow to riders... It was onlyduring HRC's final preseason phase that Doohan began to believe in the Big Bang... He found little difference in lap times but the close firing order was easier on tires and set up..."Rainey and company were in for the shock as the season kicked off...Utilizing the Big Bangs ability to find traction where others could not... Doohan ran away with the first four races... winning by anything up to 28 seconds wet or dry... The Big Bang proved such a giant leap forward that rival factories Cagiva, Suzuki, Yamaha rush to build copies... having learned the NRS's secret by playing track side audio recording against an oscilloscope..."
"There could be no doubt now... Honda now had the best 500 on the grid by quite some margin... the big bang NRS proved to be a winner in a variety of hands... Since the 80 when engine HP dramaticallyoutstripped tire and chassis performance... GP teams had been hiring tail sliding dirt trackers form America and Australia because no one else could wrestle these monsters into submission..."




Chocolate fish question of the day. Why do the single carb Honda twins sound different from the twin carb per models? EG CD175 vs CB175.Write answer on a $5 dollar note and send to ......

[gav]

It's only happened twice and no one will let me forget

Now how many choclate FXR cranks have you killed?

Yeah, twice in the last few years, huh? How often has the bike been out in that time?
Twice, maybe? :innocent:

[diesel pig]

Chocolate fish question of the day. Why do the single carb Honda twins sound different from the twin carb per models? EG CD175 vs CB175.Write answer on a $5 dollar note and send to ......

I am not going to give you $5 has we both know you will just buy more chocolate fish with it and would just make me a enabler. The single carb twins have a 360 cranks and the dual carb twin are 180 degree cranks.

[wobbly]

Here is the 90* side of the story.Interesting.

http://www.xs650.org.au/smoothness.htm

[Grumph]

Irving got the math wrong - the best layout for a vertical twin is firing at 90* as one piston is stopped and the other is at full noise,1/2 stroke.
Several late model engines are built like this, and they achieve "big bang" as well to increase off corner grip and better rider feel of the contact patch.
They vibe way less than any variation of 2 cylinders on the same plane.
The best is Bartols parallel twin in the KTM250GP,it has a balance shaft to kill all the vibes ,and reverses the crank rotation to reduce gyro precession forces as well.
I will try,one day, to spread the opposing out of balance force needed, right across a crank, just to see what happens.

Irving got the math right - when you factor in rod length and angularity, 72 deg is pretty much where the piston reaches max velocity.
Spreading opposing forces - have a look at a Laverda 180 deg triple. Outers are "up" and balanced like a normal 360 deg twin - inner is "down" and has enough counterweight to put the crank into acceptable balance - it'll never be in static balance as a bare crank because the counterweighting allows for the second bigend weight.
Did a Benelli 650 a while back - std balance factor worked out at 83% - shook like a bastard. Changed to 70% and it's quite acceptable. Rigid mountings and angled cylinders....
Aermacchis - as I said 25 to 28% is the right range for a horizontal cylinder and as I've built all the ones currently racing in NZ to this...well QED.
The dutchman Kempen is known for never giving answers......
External balance - a lot of Yank V8's have flywheels which are not in themselves balanced but which counterbalance the crank as an assembly - a trap for the unwary trying to lighten flywheels...

[ac3_snow]

PS has anyone seen the twin to 8 design with the hinged outer cylinders, balance that one.http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/10/14/ducati-elenore-v8-update/


That is an awesome piece of engineering.
You may have spotted this before TeeZee but I know you have mentioned about using another engine/cylinder to supercharge the drive engine, here is what someone made out of a Ducati. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

Some really cool stuff on there (probably old news to alot of you)..... the X4 500cc two stroke, the 'XJ500T' - a 3cylinder homebuilt version of Hondas upside down GP bike.

[husaberg]

That is an awesome piece of engineering.
You may have spotted this before TeeZee but I know you have mentioned about using another engine/cylinder to supercharge the drive engine, here is what someone made out of a Ducati. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/



Some really cool stuff on there (probably old news to alot of you)..... the X4 500cc two stroke, the 'XJ500T' - a 3cylinder homebuilt version of Hondas upside down GP bike.

The most interesting bit of the V one I think is the air storage system. Food for thought.
I hadn't seen the 3 cylinder upside down but I wonder about the handling with the crankshaft so high it would flick in good but i would be a bugger to get up again.Snow have a google at a Puch split single for the self charged 2 smoke.Twingle?I seem to remember a prewar v DKW v3 with the front down cylinder serving as pump piston.

56 users browsing the thread crickey, TZ and the rest of Team ESE. You are now famous.

Whats happening with the Attac TZ and the RGV100 Wob

[TZ350]

I have been enjoying all the latest posts, people are posting some interesting stuff.


Puch split single for the self charged 2 smoke.

Whats happening with the Attac TZ

Puch split single, I remember those, a guy down the road had one, he was the first in our area to have a motorcycle.

The ATAC, I am hanging out to try it with the pumper. But the dyno is in the middle of the w/shop and is too disruptive to use when there is real work going on.

[husaberg]

Puch split single, I remember those, a guy down the road had one, he was the first in our area to have a motorcycle.

The ATAC, I am hanging out to try it with the pumper. The dyno is in the middle of the w/shop and is too disruptive to use when there is real work going on.

Wobs mentioned DR Joe earlier on he spent a fair amount of time playing with them.
for sure you are going to try the atac and the pumper separately for us tz?did you notice the 56 users.

I did draw up a kind of split single with two outer rods holding a pump piston upright in a v twin formation. With the crank pins at 90 degrees so they were timed together about 20 years ago.I looked at it the other day as it was in the book with the pumper carb notes I sent you.I think It would have pumped a lot of fuel probably all out the exhaust.It probably would have knocked my fillings out too.

[TZ350]

Pictures from the last Mt Welly meet taken by Damien http://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/sets/72157627357078173/?page=3

246347


Wobs mentioned DR Joe earlier on he spent a fair amount of time playing with them.
for sure you are going to try the atac and the pumper separately for us tz?did you notice the 56 users

I saw your post about the 56 users, bit hard to believe that many people are interested.

I plan to take a step by step approch starting with an as is base run with the current setup as it may have faded a bit after its outing at Mt Welly.

Sorry, I confused the names, the exhaust ATAC is not finished, I mean to try the pumper with/without the inlet Vtec after getting an as is base run.

I need to sort the inlet ASAP because at the moment, sticking out the side like it does its vunerable to damage and sucking up dirt in the event of a crash.

246348246349246350

When I get to try it, it will be pretty clear if the ATAC extends the lower power spread or not.

[jasonu]

That is an awesome piece of engineering.
You may have spotted this before TeeZee but I know you have mentioned about using another engine/cylinder to supercharge the drive engine, here is what someone made out of a Ducati. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/
.

So would this Ducati still be classed as 1000cc?
ie if you were to do this with say a VT250 would it still be a 250 or 'Bucket legal' 125as it only has one cylinder that actually fires???

[Yow Ling]

So would this Ducati still be classed as 1000cc?
ie if you were to do this with say a VT250 would it still be a 250 or 'Bucket legal' 125as it only has one cylinder that actually fires???

The rules cover it pretty well, it is supercharged so would need the working cylinder sleeved to 100cc. VT is pretty big lump of metal, I think there are easier ways to make flash buckets

[jasonu]

The rules cover it pretty well, it is supercharged so would need the working cylinder sleeved to 100cc. VT is pretty big lump of metal, I think there are easier ways to make flash buckets

Yeah the VT was just an example and they are piles of shit to begin with.

What I was getting at is, on a 200cc twin 4t that has one cylinder converted to be a supercharger, would the supercharger cylinder still be counted in the overall CC'c of the bike as it is still a piston connected to the crank and is helping with the production of power whereas a 'normal' supercharger is outside of the actual engine.
I doubt if this will ever be an issue, just curious.

[F5 Dave]

There's no smoke without fire, so just as people run 450 triples in F3 by taking off one plug injector etc from a GSXR600 or R6then I don't see any issue. Still be a pants way of supercharging though & good luck finding a VT250 with 2 working cylinders. Wheelies wouldn't be a problem though.

[jasonu]

There's no smoke without fire, so just as people run 450 triples in F3 by taking off one plug injector etc from a GSXR600 or R6then I don't see any issue. Still be a pants way of supercharging though & good luck finding a VT250 with 2 working cylinders. Wheelies wouldn't be a problem though.

Except in your F3 examples the 4th cylinder is effectively dead whereas if you converted said cylinder to a power enhanceing/producing supercharger would it then count to your total CC?

[F5 Dave]

no sparkplug. It isn't producing any power, just sapping it.

PS you'd want this type of compressor running at engine speed to be bigger volume else no compressing would be going on, you'd just be passing it from one cylinder to the next before then burning it.

For example; if you made it 150cc big, compressed into a 100cc volume you may make as much power as a 150cc normally aspirated engine. . . with a dirty great dead cylinder to drag along.

[Yow Ling]

If you used a VT for example the working cylinder is 100cc the supercharging cylinder is 125 but the supercharging cylinder will pump aprox 250cc of air per 720degrees of crankshaft rotation (1 4t cycle) sothere is a significant spercharging bizzo going on here cos you are trying to jam that 250cc into a 100cc hole, could be awesome, go on Dave try it !

[Grumph]

It's possible - but rather pointless.
Given your hypothetical VT250 with the power cylinder sleeved to 100cc...
remember it's a 4 stroke so the power cylinder fires every 2 revs.
The pumping cylinder can compress twice in this period - compressing into a plenum chamber theoretically giving a boost exceeding 1 ata. at the power cylinder intake.
Frictional losses would be enormous....pointless.

Better to do it properly - car a/c compressor geared up on a CB100 would be fun.

Been there with blown motors. Plenty of HP but weight goes up unless you can afford to cast stuff in magnesium.

[F5 Dave]

Ah yes 4 stroke, - bloody silly things they are - I denounce them.:angry:

Course you could create a reasonable cheat bike by using a bigger cylinder to push the gas through some hidden inlet ports direct into the cylinder, fit pegged pistons, route the exhaust out the valved ports & change the cam timing so every 360 the valves all open 80 degs after TDC. Still be pretty miserable, but a 2 stroke at least.:innocent:


Wonder what that would sound like?. Probably a smokeless super high revving 4 stroke as you would not be opening holes in the side of the barrels to let out gas. Wonder how long before anyone noticed what you had done if you made the transfers embedded enough in the V.

The extra exhausts (from inlet valves) could be hidden in a manifold that made it look like the link pipe to the compressor cylinder but really exited into a shared muffler for the exh ports.

[husaberg]

It's possible - but rather pointless.
Given your hypothetical VT250 with the power cylinder sleeved to 100cc...
remember it's a 4 stroke so the power cylinder fires every 2 revs.
The pumping cylinder can compress twice in this period - compressing into a plenum chamber theoretically giving a boost exceeding 1 ata. at the power cylinder intake.
Frictional losses would be enormous....pointless.

Better to do it properly - car a/c compressor geared up on a CB100 would be fun.

Been there with blown motors. Plenty of HP but weight goes up unless you can afford to cast stuff in magnesium.

Speedpro has one which will work.No idea what rod he will use though.Shhhhh..,,
But guys as much as it hurts to say this. I agree with Dave TWO STROKES
I only used the Diesel stuff as an example of layouts and examples of balancing.
RE Daves bit above,
Someone once said the Oval piston NR500 sounded exactly like a two stroke v4 500 as it was revving 2x the speed and the frequency was the same never heard one so not sure come to think of it never seen let alone herd a nr750.But I have sat on a RC30 and I do secretly covert an Aermacchi. Amen
Also I have been coping the odd ribbing about my Husaberg tag. For the record my Husaberg has reed valves and is based on a husky two stroke bottom end I and I consider it a honorary two stroke as it beat the 2 strokes in a fair fight eg 500's vs 500's in MX and Enduro's before the rules were stacked in favour of the diesels. Exit soap box

[gav]

Huh? How could a four stroke NR500 ever sound like a two stroke NSR? If any thing it would sound like 2 VFR400's :scooter:

[husaberg]

Huh? How could a four stroke NR500 ever sound like a two stroke NSR? If any thing it would sound like 2 VFR400's :scooter:

I guess because it was because it was running at 22-28000rpm depending on who you ask fredy say 22 some net stuff says way more 28 .
It still only had four cylinders . I just assume its a frequency and pitch thing.Or it could be crap I don't really know. Not sure of the firing order they ran or the pipe configeration either.The valves I would think would take the sharpness out too maybe this is less with a 8 valve head. Crikey I don't know, but a cbr250 at 18000 don't sound like a nsr250 at 9000 either.I looked on the net and can find nothing about the sound of it other than most resembled a nr500. Maybe try playing a audio of V four for victory at 2x speed as an experiment as the NR500's are a bit thin on the ground around here. Mine needs a rebore but I cant find any o/s rings for it. The Honda dealer says........:blink:

I did find this so have a listen sounds like a bit of both to me but the nsr pre big bang sounds so much better it makes the nr sound like an old nail, shit nice site.listen to the videos of the bikes and check out the forks and radiator on the nr500

http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/NR500/video/02/index.html

[F5 Dave]

I was implying that the cheater supercharged 2 stroke I eluded to would sound like a 4 stroke as it was breathing through valves at the top of the head rather than holes in the bore being opened by a piston.

While we are off topic & on cheating engines; does anyone remember that turkey that was doing the water into fuel scam in NZ a couple of years back when petrol reached $2? Typical TV journalist couldn't see the sleight of hand. He had some GSXR engine he'd converted to run on this processed water mix. Of course when they did get someone to put it on a gas anayliser it seemed to produce emissions not too dissimilar to a petrol engine. I think he explained it away as oil usage.

Straight away I'd assumed he'd pulled a gear or two out & jammed a can of ether in the cases with a tiny jet to the inlet ports, but now I think I remember him crash starting it & riding it down the road. About as far as one might get on a can, but I now think he lazily stuffed under the starter motor cover. Wonder if he got many investors in his save the world get rich quick business?

[Grumph]

Phil Irving told a good story....Melbourne in the 30's. ecomomy runs were big - and betting as usual for Aussies pretty good too. All the smart money for the Spring competition was on Ausin 7's and similar. A guy with a Sidevalve Essex won it outright with somewhere round 90mpg....Phil said he only found out many years later how it was done. Slack valve guides and petrol in the sump....carb had been leaned out to the max to compensate. And the rules said that on the alloted route you could top up the "oil". Petrol in an oil can obviously.

The bookies took a hammering.

[F5 Dave]

Nice. wouldn't have done much for the condition of the engine & that's be worth a bob these days. Still, initiative has to be admired, much as I deplore cheating.

[koba]

Phil Irving told a good story....Melbourne in the 30's. ecomomy runs were big - and betting as usual for Aussies pretty good too. All the smart money for the Spring competition was on Ausin 7's and similar. A guy with a Sidevalve Essex won it outright with somewhere round 90mpg....Phil said he only found out many years later how it was done. Slack valve guides and petrol in the sump....carb had been leaned out to the max to compensate. And the rules said that on the alloted route you could top up the "oil". Petrol in an oil can obviously.

The bookies took a hammering.

Fantastic!

My Grandad had examples of each of those, he said the Essex was a real hot bit of kit at the time...

[wobbly]

Guess where that piece of brass will be sitting next week, when I get a jig to machine the cover.

[TZ350]

I got a bit of a look around Wobblys workshop today when I picked up some motor parts, interesting place.

246572

Wob here is the photo of my 2 channel SE amp that I made from scratch, the drivers are not quite in the same league as your 300B's but they have carbon plates and were made in Russia, copy of RCA 813's. The black finning is heat sinking for the DC filament supply, so no balancing for hum required. The meter is for setting bias current. Being pentodes the drive for the grids is less than 1 Watt, so only a small driver valve required.

[husaberg]

246593246577
Guess where that piece of brass will be sitting next week, when I get a jig to machine the cover.

Nice Work Wob
Out of interest did the Gp bike run this configuration and do you have and pics of the Yamaha years.
The first engine I seen with similar design head (not Brass) was the RR250 Hardly Davidson (Aermacchi)

Below is the Chocolate fish crankshaft of the day anyone keen to name it?
Hint its out of a 500 GP bike engine pm your answer

http://motorcyclephotooftheday.com/category/konig/
http://www.gyfootwear.co.uk/gy_hobbies_projects_konig%20kneeler.htm
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=konig+500cc&hl=en&sa=X&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=95bKqc4xtghEBM:&imgrefurl=http://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/06/video-documentary-love-speed-and-loss/&docid=e6PaHJQ8MtQGVM&w=709&h=451&ei=dtFqTpT4Eo2ViQfEtZzBBA&zoom=1&biw=1280&bih=799&iact=rc&dur=218&page=5&tbnh=145&tbnw=204&start=83&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:83&tx=102&ty=31
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1790145

[Yow Ling]

I got a bit of a look around Wobblys workshop today when I picked up some motor parts, interesting place.

246572

Wob here is the photo of my 2 channel SE amp that I made from scratch, the drivers are not quite in the same league as your 300B's but they have carbon plates and were made in Russia, copy of RCA 813's. The black finning is heat sinking for the DC filament supply, so no balancing for hum required. The meter is for setting bias current. Being pentodes the drive for the grids is less than 1 Watt, so only a small driver valve required.

Nice work TZ , its got that "Lost in Space" look about it, Is that little tube at the front gassed, looks like the getter has gone white in the picture.

[TZ350]

Yes tube is gassed, bumped it and must have damaged it straightening the pins, it was a Telefunkin Diamond .......:crybaby:

[wobbly]

Crank is a flying web, the only one I can think of is the original Swiss Auto - that became the Pulse 500 several years later.
But the Pulse crank/rods looked alot different.
The first skull insert head I saw was a 100cc Parilla kart engine about 30 years ago.

I had thousands of pics I took when Sinclair and Benson would let me into the closed garages, but they were all lost when my laptop was stolen at Buckleys.

Here is a pic of my current amps.
Scratch built Atmasphere OTLs,32 bit Twisted Pear Buffalo CD with Philips Pro drive player and Bastanis Atlas open baffle speakers.

Edit - would never have guessed it was Newcombs Konig - I didnt know that was a flying web, no wonder they had huge dramas keeping the crank together.

[kel]

Wobbly is currently working on Yowlings RG125 hybrid so thought I'd drag out the RG150 for comparison. As far as I’m aware the bottom end is the same between the 125 and 150. First thing I like about the 150 is the centre plug so no fancy machining required. Surprisingly the transfer ducts aren’t overly large, thought they would require some serious filling but maybe not. Also like the wider exhaust port bridge with the water duct passing through it plus the 3 piece exhaust valves. What’s not so cool is that the cylinder has an iron liner (not sure if its coated), to replace it for 50mm bore would mean a seriously thick iron liner. Maybe that hybrid is the way to go.
So whats the copper coating in the port ducts?
246603
246604

[jasonu]

So whats the copper coating in the port ducts?
246603
246604

Are you sure it isn't dried up coolant spooge from sitting in a box under someones house for 100 years?

[TZ350]

MAHLE engine failure manual

http://www.mahle.com/C12572E600480825/CurrentBaseLink/W275ULLE756STULEN

[wobbly]

The 150 case is very different than the 125, the gasket line is moved out alot.
Thus the transfer ducts and entries are WAY to big, and the case vol is WAY to big for 100cc.
But I believe the crank is more "full circle" than the 125 and may not need stuffers,cant remember.
I like using an insert in even a center plug setup like the 150 as without lots of poxy welds in the chamber, its impossible to drop the plug into the head to achieve a toroidal shape.
Here is the RGV100 head just been machined.

[kel]

The 150 case is very different than the 125, the gasket line is moved out alot.

Hmm, the VJ22 cylinder also bolts up to the RG150 bottom end. The head mounts are different between the cylinders but not the bottom end. Sure the cylinder needs sleeving, case needs some filling and the rod needs changing to run the required piston (havent looked at the reed yet) but in reality this is one of the easier water cooled bucket motor conversions. In fact its so easy Im willing to sell the RG150 to any interested parties, just drop me a line. Right Im off to look at one of my other unfinished 2 stroke project motors!

[husaberg]

Father of the modern 2 stroke

Alfred Scott is maybe the grandfather.
While i was looking for something on the net I came across something interesting. It seem the two stoke was invented on 1881 by another clever Scottish dude (not Alfred) but it had valves.
I had of course heard of the Scott motorbike and seen a lot of stuff about them, But was unaware some of them of the rotary valves.
He begun experimenting with 2 strokes in 1902 and ran a 3 port design but with a deflector.
The first IOM TT win by a two stroke was in 1911 by a two cylinder rotary valve liquid cooled Scott.
His rotary valve it would seem also controlled the engine speed.
Alfred Angus Scott was the holder of more than sixty patents and died in 1923 aged 48. His motorcycles were among the first to feature kick-starters, chain drives, and multi-speed gearboxes he even had a rudimentary form of autolube. He usually used simple two-stroke motors that were water-cooled – about 60 years before such cooling was “pioneered” by Suzuki and introduced with great fanfare on the GT 750.
Alfred Scott's first motorcycle was developed from his own 2 horsepower (1.5 kW) twin cylinder engine design which he hand built and fitted to the steering head of a bicycle. These engines were used to power equipment such as lathes and light machinery and Scott had been involved in the manufacture of 'Premier' pedal cycles. He developed this prototype into a motorcycle and six were produced under contract by friends with a car company called Jowett in Bradford. Scott patented an early form of calliper brakes in 1897, designed a fully triangulated frame, rotary induction valves, and used unit construction for his motorcycle engine.
Scott started making boat engines in 1900. He patented his first engine in 1904 (Patent GB 3367 of 1904) and started motorcycle production in 1908 with a vertical two-stroke 450 cc twin, with patented triangulated frame, chain drive, neutral-finder, kick starter (Patent GB 27667 of 1908),[and two-speed gearbox. His patented two-stroke engine designs are still the basis of modern two-stroke engines and features such as the first kick start, monoshock suspension, efficient radiators, rotary inlet valves, drip-feed lubricators and centrestands continue to this day.
Scott's motorcycles were deemed to be 'too efficient' for racing against motorcycles of the same capacity, so their cubic capacity was multiplied by 1.32 for competitive purposes



An engine based on his design but updated but still ran deflector pistons Blair even had input' was sold in the 1970s and was raced with some success.The frame was Spondon.
The noise emitted was described as for all silk/Scotts. as YOWLING. I wonder if thats where Mike got his name from?.
The engines were noted for there smoothness.I can only find a description of the rotary valve but it seemed quite trick.They also had alloy barrels with iron sleeves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Angas_Scott
http://www.silk-scott.org/pb/wp_37a63b2c/wp_37a63b2c.html
http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/miscellaneous/silk-700s/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scott_Motorcycle_Company
http://www.scottownersclub.org/scott_motorcycle_history.htm

The last pic is an Anzani rotary valve the engine was popular during the 50s and is rather unique in its rotary valve layout.They ran a single carb BTW


Also not fitting to kels question but I found out the other day why a lot of conrods were copper coloured.They were copper coated to allow the bearing surfaces to be carburised without affecting the other areas.

[TZ350]

Wanted to have a go at the pumper carb today and thought I would get all scientific and set a base line with the existing 24-28 Keihin side carb setup and then try the 24mm pumper but the clutch was slipping and I could not get it to settle down. I am not expecting power gains with the pumper, I just want to improve the crashability of the bike by getting the carb out of the way, hopefully without loosing to much power.

246644

Tried for a new base line with the existing setup.

246643

The clutch was slipping, but there is enough to see that the engine is still good (blue line) after two race meetings at Mt Welly.

246646

Fitted up the pumper, and got it running. I was able to try adjusting the High and Low speed needles and fiddle about a bit. These carbs are totaly new to me so not to sure what I am doing but I expect I will get the hang of it.

246645

The slipping clutch sort of spoilt things but there is enough there to see that the pumper (red line) should work reasonably well.

It looks like the pumper in its tucked out of the way position will be able to match the original side carb setup for power, so that's encouraging.

All in all not a bad result, just got to get that clutch sorted.

[TZ350]

I need a better clutch.

A Suzuki SP125 dual sport has a nice looking clutch. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3984Q2em1423Q2el2649QQ itemZ380230308961QQsspagenameZSTRKQ3aMEWAXQ3aIT

"Introduced in 1987, this 12hp four-stroke trail bike was launched to plug a gap in the lucrative learner legal ‘Trailie’ market."

246670

Looks like a SP125 is a Bucket legal parts donor bike, I don't know the bike myself, does any one else have any other thoughts about its eligibility?

[Kickaha]

"Introduced in 1987, this 12hp four-stroke trail bike was launched to plug a gap in the lucrative learner legal ‘Trailie’ market."

12hp:laugh: yeah right

Pretty much the same as the GN/DR by the look of it, I got a few of those clutches lying around if you want one

[TZ350]

I got a few of those clutches lying around if you want one

Yes please, if its like the one on the Ebay link .... $$$$ ?? please PM me.

[husaberg]

Yes please, if its like the one on the Ebay link .... $$$$ ?? please PM me.

It may be better off in the long run to start with the competition one if I was you
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-...item2eb225e620/
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-...item19b9cb5ee0

you could try Pete Sales parts catalog.I think it loooks kind of like this Shhhh.http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf"]http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf
Edited the post as it was a error of judgement A MIND LAPSE to suggest about using competition clutch parts.Whoops. The links are now inactivated to protect the innocent.
No children were harmed during the pasteing of this link.

[Kickaha]

Yes please.... $$$$ ??

Looks the same, you can have it, I must have 5-6 of them, I'll try and dig a good one out, GN/DR/SP all list as having the same clutch kit

[TZ350]

It may be betterin the long run to start with the competition one if I was you
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-1977-1978-Suzuki-RM125-clutch-hub-inner-basket-RM-/200557323808?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb225e620
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-1978-SUZUKI-RM100-RM-100-MOTOR-CLUTCH-/110491295456?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19b9cb5ee0

Yes that looks like a GP clutch, I thought all RM's used conventional springs....... :(

But can't use competition engine or g/box parts.

[TZ350]

Looks the same, you can have it, I must have 5-6 of them, I'll try and dig a good one out, GN/DR/SP all list as having the same clutch kit

Many Thanks ........ I will PM my details.

[wobbly]

Copper coating the rod or crank areas not needed to be hard,prevents the heat treat process from affecting the core - leaving it more ductile and crack resistant.
The company Heat Treatments have a paint on product that does the same job.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah Funny in the US market the differnt naming conventions & slightly different models they had back in the 80s esp when there was this huge boom & the play bike market was huooge. Yams sold MX range as a half way house between the YZ & the DT. The SP, well a little blured but as Kick sez a DR variant. We got SP370s pre DRs but the name seemed to live on in US. Either way Suzuki are very keen on the whole parts box engineering. Why change something that 'will do' if the tooling is already paid for?

[kel]

Hmm, the VJ22 cylinder also bolts up to the RG150 bottom end.

Quick look on the inter knows everything web and I see the RG125F cylinder head bolts straight up to the VJ22 cylinder and has a straight plug as standard. I sure like Wobbles machined head with insert but for the cash strapped (or just plain tight like myself) then the RG125 head looks like a good option.

[husaberg]

Weird thing is I always thought the bane of Disk valve was limited over rev.
No doubt there is a little bit of artistic license in the text and it is old.
pg 4 is actually pg 2

For TZ the bend on your inlet is that the su carb air filter bend? if it is are you slowly turning the bucket into a Morris Minor

[wobbly]

Bottom line is that when tuned for max power the disc valve does make more than a reed - those flapper things are always "in the way" to some extent..
But there are many trade offs.The disc will have NO power at all under the tuned for range, as it cannot suppress reversion at low rpm, and you cannot tune out the fact that the intake waves are telling the main jet signal all manner of lies,repeatedly.
Thus a reed engine can have much wilder exhaust timing and pipe design without giving away a heap of "under the pipe" power, and this exhaust tuning can have plenty of overev power as well, if that's what is needed.
An example would be the pipes I did for the fastest,and record breaking Honda RS250 on the salt last year, it had over 90RWHp between 12000 and nearly 15000,so would simply keep revving till the aero drag stopped it.
The peak power was "only" 96 I think, but it had plenty everywhere else it was needed.
To get that sort of overev power from the RV would mean it would be all but impossible to get it to carburate off the pipe, as the closing timing needed to get to 15000 would be mentally wild ( like 98*+ ).
And the last thing to consider is that despite what the supremely clever Frits and Jan say and did - in the last year of 250GP a Honda reed valve engine kicked Aprillias arse in the title - with a guy who cant ride a MotoGP bike to save himself.
The newer RSA engine is probably an unbeatable combination in 125GP, but for many other less demanding applications the reed has real, and useable, advantages.

[TZ350]

246711

Tonight Speedpro won the race to be the first documented usefull Bucket engine at 30rwhp

[husaberg]

246711

Tonight Speedpro won the race to be the first documented usefull Bucket engine at 30rwhp

Congrads all around I am more impressed by the torque curve myself.

For Wob did Yam end up using some form of Electronic control in the end. I had a little search on the net but came up empty on the disk valve Yam.
The problem with the disk valve for a bucket in my opinion is that you are stuck with basing the motor on a 1970s design. I am aiming for a 1990s design motor.
PS What did ya think of the Walter write up.Check out the determination in his eyes.

[Gigglebutton]

246711

Tonight Speedpro won the race to be the first documented usefull Bucket engine at 30rwhp

All the long hours and hard work paid off. Well done Mike. :woohoo:

[wobbly]

WoooHoo Green man,on the money dude - glad to see that after all these years my TSR predicted 35 or whatever crank power at 13000 has come to pass.

I had some good pics of the disc Yamaha, but dont remember any gizmo's on the RV at all.

I printed off Walters pic and want to frame it on a wall - anyone seen a better quality version on the net I can download.
He can hang next to my Hero Helmut Fath.

[kel]

in the last year of 250GP a Honda reed valve engine kicked Aprillias arse in the title - with a guy who cant ride a MotoGP bike to save himself.

2009 250GP was a classic and Aoyama deserved the title. The Honda was receiving new parts all through the season but was still unable to match the speed of the Aprilia and Gilera, but it had the handling! Aoyama was consistent and won when he needed to, Supermoncelli (what my 4 year old calls him) suffered bad luck and general madness (see Mugello) and Bautista cracked under pressure and did stupid things like flipping the bike over backwards.
BRING BACK THE 250's!

[wobbly]

Yea Kel, you are right about the 250 year.
But even running supertrick Ohlins and with more top end speed the RV brigade didnt perform.
Aoyama was well fast enough with the reed Honda and Showa's to be consistantly at the front and take points,every time.

Here is a pic for TZ350 - new head I have just done for Trevor Discombes bike.Must be the first TZ350 in the world with Toroid inserts.

[husaberg]

Yea Kel, you are right about the 250 year.
But even running supertrick Ohlins and with more top end speed the RV brigade didnt perform.
Aoyama was well fast enough with the reed Honda and Showa's to be consistantly at the front and take points,every time.

Here is a pic for TZ350 - new head I have just done for Trevor Discombes bike.Must be the first TZ350 in the world with Toroid inserts.

Why all alloy inserts? didn't the TZ350 have some brass rings in std as in my post ? pages or so back Wob.

[F5 Dave]

. . . didn't the TZ350 have some brass rings in std as . . .
Not std


. . .Must be the first TZ350 in the world with Toroid inserts.You mean after the period ones you are replicating in keeping with Classic ethos :innocent: (Alongside the fat spannies on the Metrallas)

[TZ350]

Modified a clutch tonight. Machined something of the back of the hub and of each plate with a jig made along the lines discribed to me by Speedpro.

So now with a 7th plate I have 17% more friction plate area, I still would like to get away from the pin retainers and look forward to the clutch parts with the conventional spring retaining bolts Kick is sending me, but hopefully this mod will do in the mean time.

[Buckets4Me]

Not std

You mean after the period ones you are replicating in keeping with Classic ethos :innocent: (Alongside the fat spannies on the Metrallas)



so back in 1978 they ran standard heads on there race bikes ? (dont think so. they cheated as much as they could get away with)

I remember one racer running yamaha heads on his suzuki :shit:
and the sience experiments on fuel that went on :corn: (in the kitchen)
and stories of his mate leaping around on fire while everyone watched because there where no visable flames

[F5 Dave]

TZs weren't production bikes, anything went, no problem there, no cheating modding a TZ. Meth was legal too. Heck it made the BMS F2 Duke competitive with TZs, That got R.Taylor a bit hot under the collar.

[husaberg]

so back in 1978 they ran standard heads on there race bikes ? (dont think so. they cheated as much as they could get away with)

I remember one racer running Yamaha heads on his Suzuki :shit:
and the science experiments on fuel that went on :corn: (in the kitchen)
and stories of his mate leaping around on fire while everyone watched because there where no visible flames

People forget you can do anything within the capacity limits in classic other than adding 4 valve heads to something that didn't have them in the period and as long as the silhouette is the same its A-ok.Cams was even more forgiving.

People have always cheated when was the last time anyone had a engine stripped.Other than maybe 250 proddy racing.
I think I can remember a f2 shit fight with a TZ250 the name of the rider alludes me.
Rob T was the tuner and on the 750 Ducati Robert H was the rider and I think ? OConnor was the tuner on a 900 bottom end (6 SPEED)was a big scrap and protest back and forwards not sure if they opened up the engines though but when has it ever happened in NZ.I AM meaning protests and stripping motors as a result.

New question for the panel
What is the octane of NZ av gas RON/MON
That is legal now according to the fuel Regs right?
I hadn't noticed that it was in the new rules as it always pump fuel in the old regs.
How much different does the av Gas behave than the super I am guessing even AV gas is low lead now?I seem to remember Wob saying that was why the mixture is leaned off now after peak for over rev it being a quirk of unleaded?

[Yow Ling]

Great work Speedpro, raising the bar is good for buckets !

[husaberg]

TZs weren't production bikes, anything went, no problem there, no cheating modding a TZ. Meth was legal too. Heck it made the BMS F2 Duke competitive with TZs, That got R.Taylor a bit hot under the collar.
Does that make Hurderman the tuner then?RH was no mug on a bike remember he would have done all right on a XR100 RIP RH.But anyway.

The point was was trying to make (obviously not that well)was hardly ever does an engine get stripped.
Both bike were as far as I know or care legal.
But cheating in all forms of motorsport is I am afraid quite rife.
It always has been
I am not saying it's right it's just a sad fact of life.Cheaters often do prosper.I am not calling either a cheat BTH.
It is so easy to build an oversize motor.and if they are never stripped they are never caught.

And how did you slip in the post about mine when I posted after yours.did you change your whole post Dave?is that cheating?

[Gigglebutton]

246711

Tonight Speedpro won the race to be the first documented usefull Bucket engine at 30rwhp

Great job Wobs. The art and science of 2 stroke tuning on a dyno graph.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
And how did you slip in the post about mine when I posted after yours.did you change your whole post Dave?is that cheating?
Well now we know your secret. Slow typer. Must have taken you 10min to post that, or at least to read other posts & post it.:shutup:

Bit spooky we both came up with the same example, kinda thought, erm didn't you read my post?

[wobbly]

With todays technology the bar can now be raised to around 40 crank Hp without too much drama involved, and thus achieving around 35 RWHp.
Its just a matter of careful parts selection and very careful assembly.

The alloy inserts for the TZ350 was the customers choice - once its all proven, and we get a handle on what the engine likes, then I will do some bronze ones.

AvGas in NZ is all LL100, this is low lead 100 octain.But the rating is defined differently in avaition.Its approx equiv to 100 "pump" gas, but has a lean rating of 100 and a rich rating of 130.
MNZ Appendix E defines avgas as max 112 MON amd max 108 RON.

Avgas, or any leaded "race" fuel reacts completely differently to unleaded pump gas.
In general terms the unleaded hates compression, but loves timing.Avgas is the opposite in that it makes more power up to the knock limit with more com.
Unleaded makes better power when run rich,avgas makes more the leaner you go.
Tuning in the old days with RS and TZ engines meant using lean mains and small powerjets ( 35 ) as turning off a big jet over the top would mean being too lean in the overev.
Nowdays the unleaded fuel runs rich at peak power, then uses a big powerjet ( 55) to create some heat in the pipe over the top.

[quallman1234]

With todays technology the bar can now be raised to around 40 crank Hp without too much drama involved, and thus achieving around 35 RWHp.
Its just a matter of careful parts selection and very careful assembly.

The alloy inserts for the TZ350 was the customers choice - once its all proven, and we get a handle on what the engine likes, then I will do some bronze ones.

AvGas in NZ is all LL100, this is low lead 100 octain.But the rating is defined differently in avaition.Its approx equiv to 100 "pump" gas, but has a lean rating of 100 and a rich rating of 130.
MNZ Appendix E defines avgas as max 112 MON amd max 108 RON.

Avgas, or any leaded "race" fuel reacts completely differently to unleaded pump gas.
In general terms the unleaded hates compression, but loves timing.Avgas is the opposite in that it makes more power up to the knock limit with more com.
Unleaded makes better power when run rich,avgas makes more the leaner you go.
Tuning in the old days with RS and TZ engines meant using lean mains and small powerjets ( 35 ) as turning off a big jet over the top would mean being too lean in the overev.
Nowdays the unleaded fuel runs rich at peak power, then uses a big powerjet ( 55) to create some heat in the pipe over the top.

Have you had any experience with the mobil leaded race gas? Sold at mobil manfield etc is there much difference between this and av gas. I ask because I usually run it in my rs125 however am not sure of the avability of it down south and am a little concerned of any effects with switching fuels

[husaberg]

Well now we know your secret. Slow typer. Must have taken you 10min to post that, or at least to read other posts & post it.:shutup:

Bit spooky we both came up with the same example, kinda thought, erm didn't you read my post?

Kind of spooky all right. I do Type Slow as I was hired for my looks. I am guessing I never refreshed the page. I was only reading something on the other Ducati BMS 851/9? cc85? or whatever it was the other day with the Steve Roberts twin spar frame and Hilbourne injection Blah blah.I have read a few threads with Robert Taylor and it seems he is mmm..Tightly wound.(get it tightly wound) I do think he did have one of the first Dynojet Dynos I can remember.

Its kind of spooky we both have Stinger/Wolfs as well as MB50/100 motors when you think about it.Throw in the Euro dirt bike as well. Not to mention the dark sense of sarcastic humor no one but the very good looking intelligent types seems to appreciate and understand.

For Wob thanks for filling in the gaps re the fuel I guess I was the only one who missed the avgas is ok bit.
I was talking to Kickaha the other day and we were both muttering about the sidecars and how well one would go with something like this in it.what would be the usable power output for a chair with a CVT trans?
I was channeling the Monotrack thing in the 70s with the Mag Monocoque and snowmobile engine.none of them would be legal for bike classes but I guess a Rotax/seadoo would be legal for Bears. would be fun at least on the straights and piss of a few Ducks and Hogs. Good for a giggle and a great way to meet nurses.
or snowmobile engine check out the HP claims
http://www.aaenperformance.com/V4_racing_engine.asp
http://www.psipowerinc.com/34695.htm
While looking I came across the V4 apologies if it has already been posted but I am in love with it now
I note this engine woul seem to be running peak HP at a mean piston speed of 5000ft/minute I wonder how long the crank lasts.

For snow what was the outcome from the blow up diagnosis comp/timing/fuel

[richban]

Have you had any experience with the mobil leaded race gas? Sold at mobil manfield etc is there much difference between this and av gas. I ask because I usually run it in my rs125 however am not sure of the avability of it down south and am a little concerned of any effects with switching fuels

My understanding is its old Av gas sent to them in a big drum at manfield mobil. Wellington aero club have the fresh stuff straight from the pump. I can notice the difference when using fresh AV gas on my bike. I would imagine the same would be true on your 125.

[wobbly]

Race gas bought in drums really is" low lead race gas", nothing wrong with it - but hard to get the same stuff in many places.
The stuff in tanks at stations/tracks is "old" avgas.The best, and only way to be sure of what you are getting is to go to any local airport and buy Avgas - it is tested regularly and is guaranteed to be fresh and to spec - has to be, or the Lycomings would all fall out of the air - bad.

[gamma500]

Hi wobbly,

are pipes with 3 stage diffusers a lot better than pipes with 1 stage diffusers?

What about 5 stage diffusers?

[F5 Dave]

You might want to define 'better'. Along with intended application & transfer curve into barrel. Incidentally one of my bikes has a 0 stage diffuser & parallel tube header. It is 'better' than my older Trials bike that had a quasi expansion chamber.

[wobbly]

Having multi cone sections gives the designer the ability to shape the power curve to the desired application.
Add to this 2 stage headers and you can achieve any wave amplitude correction needed with a 3 stage diffuser.
Here is a design I did for a Euro champ winning 50cc Malossi,it has a nozzle in the exhaust duct with an oval to round transition in the flange.
A two stage header, 3 stage diffuser with the steepest angle in the middle.
A killer pipe for the cylinder porting as it was used for long track racing only.
Graph is crank Hp

[gamma500]

Really interesting, thank you.

[Gigglebutton]

Having multi cone sections gives the designer the ability to shape the power curve to the desired application.
Add to this 2 stage headers and you can achieve any wave amplitude correction needed with a 3 stage diffuser.
Here is a design I did for a Euro champ winning 50cc Malossi,it has a nozzle in the exhaust duct with an oval to round transition in the flange.
A two stage header, 3 stage diffuser with the steepest angle in the middle.
A killer pipe for the cylinder porting as it was used for long track racing only.
Graph is crank Hp

Hell!!! A 20hp 50. How hard is that to achieve???

[husaberg]

Hell!!! A 20hp 50. How hard is that to achieve???

Hell 21HP is even harder to achieve than 20hp:facepalm:

[husaberg]

Hell!!! A 20hp 50. How hard is that to achieve???

Whoops double reply:facepalm: on self for that one
That's 420hp/litre at the crank but that's super impressive and smooth curve too. Out of interest have you ever dynoed a ktm50 Wob.

[TZ350]

Currently Team ESE are using ATF in the box. We started using ATF back in the day (70's) when car oils started using friction modifiers and these ruined clutches.

ATF became a habit and now that there are better oils for motorcycle gear box's, we are doing a bit of research looking for a better box lube than ATF if there is one.

Husenburg has been very helpfull and sent me some links.

"Automotive oils, such as Castrol 20w50, use the latest in automotive additives classified as SJ. To qualify as an SJ rated oil, there are maximum levels of zinc and phosphorous that can be contained in the formula and specific performance levels that must be achieved using an SJ rated additive (i.e., mpg.) The levels of zinc and phosphorous in SJ oils is much less than those levels found in motorcycle specific oils. The government has also mandated to automotive OEM's that gas mileage must be increased in late model cars to help deter the negative effects of exhaust emissions. The OEM's can accomplish this task by adding friction modifiers to their oils, hence reducing friction and improving gas mileage.

The additional friction modifiers found in automotive engine oils will plate out on the surfaces of the clutch causing slippage. Those of us that use the clutch much increase our chances of glazing the clutch with every pull of the lever.

This fact becomes even more important when considering an engine oil for your 4-stroke bike that has a wet clutch. You must also now protect your engine with the same lubricant. Not only will the number of miles put on the oil likely increase, but it is also being exposed to the harsh environment of the combustion chamber. Keep in mind here that you want to look for an oil labeled Motorcycle Specific (JASO MA--for wet clutches) and one that is using an SG additive system (containing higher levels of zinc and phosphorous.)"

The complete link can be read here.

http://www.floridatrailriders.org/articles/techinf3.htm

A good read, well worth the trip.

[F5 Dave]

um whats wrong with just the proper gearbox oil. motul trans works for me & as said before a well abused clutch.

that 50 curve makes lots of f4 bikes a bit sick.

[Buckets4Me]

motul trans works for me

Was it around in the 70's ?

old habits and all

[wobbly]

Getting 20 from a 50 is easy, its all in the numbers,but its certainly not cheap..
If you have all the components working together in synergy then the STAs tell us it can be done.
Note how well every variable is right on the money - and as long as you implement every mod remembering that we are dealing with a "on the limit" scenario,then the numbers do translate into reality.
I have a KTM50 cylinder on its way from England for a customer now, the pics look like its very very well made.

[husaberg]

Getting 20 from a 50 is easy, its all in the numbers,but its certainly not cheap..
If you have all the components working together in synergy then the STAs tell us it can be done.
Note how well every variable is right on the money - and as long as you implement every mod remembering that we are dealing with a "on the limit" scenario,then the numbers do translate into reality.
I have a KTM50 cylinder on its way from England for a customer now, the pics look like its very very well made.

The KTM 50 SX cylinders I have seen have a super thick alloy liner. I guess they use the same cylinder on the 65.The gaskets are the same including the head gasket which is weird.These are the pre 09 ones though.
The 2002 to 2008 I think are manufactured by maybe Beta or Minerelli.The 09 ones onwards are a new engine are much easier to ride and faster for the kids.
The Chinese do a rip off of the engine the quality may be a little lacking no doubt.It could be melted down to make a pretty effective wok. We could use SS90 for the former. He does have a wok shaped noggin already.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/partdiscounter/m.html?_nkw=ktm+50&_sacat=&_odkw=&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3911.m270.l1313

For the panel
I must admit I was a little horrified when I asked what TZ was using for oil and he said ATF but it seems after snooping around that heaps of people do indeed use it. Without drama.
I had a good look around and it seems there are pro's and cons to both. but I do prefer gearbox oil myself or 4 stroke motorbike oil at a pinch and I have used Mobil one with good results Naughty yes.I used 4T later which i think was the same just repriced and packaged.
I do use ATF in the KTM50 (slipper clutch) but I hate doing it and change it every meeting.
Do Auto trans have thin gears with high pressure points in them forgive my ignorance I have never looked in a slush box.
From what i found out the first uses for synthetic oils where for gearbox and diff oils etc as they perform such extreme duty with huge shear forces between the gears or so I read anyway.
One thing I do know from experience is that Honda's with lsds in the front (the old trx300 4wd) hated Castrol Syntrax it made them noisy (clickey for want of a better description) I do not know why.the Yamahas were no issues with them put the oil std oil in the Honda's and they were quiet again.
I found this about ATF fluid specs in a net debate

"ATF type F doesn't foam up. the B & M tranny fluid is just type F . Why type -f ? Because Mercon and Dexron contain additives that are designed to provide a soft clutch engagement in automobile slushboxes for smooth shifting. Type F contains additives that are designed to enhance clutch grip."
I also found this counter claim
http://www.gtfours.co.uk/what/atf/atf.htm
http://twostrokemotocross.com/forum/index.php?topic=483.0
http://www.allthingsmoto.com/forums/f-14/transmission-oil-choices-what-pick-401/?forumid=14
I don't think it maters really. use what you are happy with and change it often.

[Henk]

old habits and all

Discovered fire yet?

[Buckets4Me]

For the panel
I must admit I was a little horrified when I asked what TZ was using for oil and he said ATF but it seems after snooping around that heaps of people do indeed use it. Without drama.
"

holden specified it for there gearboxes in the manual commmy (VL I think)
then again it's a holden :facepalm:


maby it's the Jap in him

In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, ATF contained whale oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_oil) as a friction modifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_modifier). But since whale oil would break down at higher temperatures, cars produced in the 1970s and later would not be able to use whale oil because of the higher engine coolant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_coolant) temperatures employed to reduce emissions and save fuel. A moratorium on whale oil at that time prevented the continued production of older ATFs such as the original DEXRON formulation (Type B), and the Type A which preceded it. General Motors began marketing Dexron II Type C and later Dexron II Type D to replace the whale oil-derived fluids.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid#cite_note-1)</sup>

[Chambers]

Do Auto trans have thin gears with high pressure points in them

All the auto trans that I have had apart have had planetary gears in them, typically three small planet gears rotating around a sun gear. I can't say if their pressure points are more or less than a std gear setup.

[husaberg]

holden specified it for there gearboxes in the manual commmy (VL I think)
then again it's a holden :facepalm:
maybe it's the Jap in him

VL Holden Aha. The gearbox could have lasted long enough to see out the engine before the head cracked with no oil in it .:shutup:
I think in my internet search quest I see some bike manufacturers may also have speced ATF in bikes too. It seems you should avoid synthetic car oils with the eco label too.(Bad for clutches)
Re Chambers Interesting, planetary gears, I will have to have a look in one.(thanks Bucketracer below) My old Zetor had them in the hubs.totally off topic the old Zetor (Czechoslovakian made and rugged and Cheap) tractors reputably weighed so much more than any off the western tractors was because the casting were allegedly that porous the oil leaked out of them so they just made them thicker. They seemed to be painted on the inside to. Re the Jap in me the VL holden was Nissan powered remember. This also might go a long way to explaining my fetish with Asian chicks, maybe I am a Japanese lesbian trapped inside a Red necked yokel body. The Whale oil as ATF mmm... Whale oil and Whale meat is a little bland for that real steak of the sea taste, I suggest you can't go past Dolphin. They are after all just Cattle with better PR. EDIT (and less legs I guess.)

The more I look the more it becomes apparent yes ATF can be used (obviously)
Yes it may offer potential power increases (marginal )
but it doesn't offer the protection of a proper gear oil.(obviously)
Amsoil list the wear protection figures on their site and I did look like their ATF offered close to gear oil protection until I read the fine print.
The wear figures for the ATF which still didn't meet there gear oil for protection and was carried out at a lower temp and a lower speed.

Seeing Team ESE is Devoted to leaving no stone unturned in the quest for 2 stroke tuning.
Maybe a back to back transmission rundown test on the dyno and with a head to head HP run thin gear oil vs ATF oil shootout.

As an interesting aside (well to me anyway) the KTM50 sites recommend not using chain lube on the 415 chains with alloy sprockets they recomend silicon spray? Edit WD40 is what they recommend sorry

[bucketracer]

Planetary Gear

246971

Auto Trans Planetary gear and clutch setup

246972

A short course in Auto Trans. http://www.familycar.com/transmission.htm

[TZ350]

Ok, got a bit of dyno time tonight.

Fitted the pumper and the Vtec manifold with the valve locked in the open position.

247101

Started to get some good runs but the laptop for adjusting the ignition packed a sulk and would not play the game. Now the motor is pulling from lower rev's the graph looks all squeezed up.

Looks like the pumper will work, just needs some ignition changes and the Vtec hooked up again. Hopefully the ATAC valve Wobbly suggested will take that 7,000 rpm dip out and I expect to get that topend back with a bit of ignition tweeking.

[Gigglebutton]

24mm Tillitson 360A

247122

Don't see these on bikes very often, 26 hP and a better looking curve is pretty good going.

Do you think you will be able to get back to the 28.9 hP that I have seen here before?

[TZ350]

Do you think you will be able to get back to the 28.9 hP that I have seen here before?

247132

Hopefully, and I think the Tillitson carb is up to it, but I think the extra inlet tract length that has crept in when I bent the carb up and out of the way is limiting the max rpm and over rev that can be achieved and the bend itself can't be helping either.

[husaberg]

247132

Hopefully, and I think the Tillitson carb is up to it, but I think the extra inlet tract length that has crept in when I bent the carb up and out of the way is limiting the max rpm and over rev that can be achieved and the bend itself can't be helping either.

I thought the Tillotson was shorter than the std carb?
Have you thought of using the std carb cover with a packer spacer and an air filter attached to the side case or a round hole in the side case with a round piece of foam directly attached to it if that makes any sense Maybe a ramflow off a Webber carb if you remember those (aftermarket for good old fords escorts etc).Or sticking up at right angles to the carb.But not attached to it using the space as a air box plenum I think the yb100 or A50 or FS1e had something like that and prob the gp did std.
Either that or having the u bend after the carb but before the filter.If you catch my drift.
Alternatively maybe something like the old aprillia setup. Someone posted a pic of the RSA banjo somewhere
those old Rotax CanAms had an interesting looking induction system for a disc valve motor.
Then again there's always the pancake filter. maybe more Harley K&N type than SU design Shit i can't believe I said that.
Then again you could consider moving the engine over a couple of inches so the carb doesn't stick out so much.

[ac3_snow]

I had my package turn up from the states yesterday :sweatdrop phew, after some previous experiences i was begining to have my doubts.

But good old ebay and 250 NZ$ means I now have two nice shiney new wiseco pistons. Soon I will get stuck in attempting to work out ccr and timing etc before piecing it all back together in hopefully a more premanent fashion than my last attempt :woohoo:

[TZ350]

Tips and Tricks.

Here is a very easy way of checking for a bent rod, a very useful assembly check.

247252

Hold the barrel down and then with the piston at TDC slide a feeler gauge around the top, if the rod is even slightly bent it will be tighter on one side than the other. When I was working a lot with engines, this was a standard test done on every cylinder as a double check for alignment issues. You could also feel for broken rings this way too.

Circlips were always given a half turn in their grooves to be sure they were properly seated and there was no forgien matter caught behind them. If the clip was not properly in its grove when you turned it you could hear it click into place.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
As an interesting aside (well to me anyway) the KTM50 sites recommend not using chain lube on the 415 chains with alloy sprockets they recomend silicon spray?
yeah, but its amazing the crap you hear in closed circles, several years ago in MX circles people were running stupidly low premix rates (more gas, oil doesn't make power etc) & you still hear this sort of thing. I'm sure Wob will have hear Karting lore practices that would make you shake your head. At the local track the Karts all seem to start their engines & rev the living crap out of them from cold for a couple of min & then stop them. Who knows why? Probably 'heat cycles':facepalm:

Silicon spray. . . ok so yeah it won't attract dirt so much & the chain will look cleaner from the outside, but 415 is non o-ring & any water & dirt will enter in the bushes. Silicone won't have any real shear resistance. I'll take real chain lube thanks. in fact I do.

I use gearbox oil in gearboxes & fork oil in forks. I figure the very worst that can happen is that oil companies have decided ATF outperforms the best they can develop so they repackage it. But I don't think so.

If I had an auto engine I'd run ATF, . . .but then again I've heard frogs fluid works better so best start collecting frogs & worknig out how to press the most splooge out of them:shutup:

[wobbly]

Here is some 4 stroke shit to annoy you guys - I cant easily post a pic on a PM.
For Rich, here is a pic of carb, I have plenty of different carbs - spigots and bellmouth intakes depending upon what length you want.
The FCRs work real well,should be able to jet them easily enough.
cheers
wob

[F5 Dave]

He's a witch! Burn him!

[Gigglebutton]

If I had an auto engine I'd run ATF, . . .but then again I've heard frogs fluid works better so best start collecting frogs & worknig out how to press the most splooge out of them

TeeZee the hot go for your g/box is frog splooge........ :yes:

[F5 Dave]

On the way to work I've been listening to a mate's collection of music. Currently on is an old Silverchair albulm called Frog Stompin. The music is dreadful, but maybe they knew something we're only just picking up on. . . :blink:

[wobbly]

Sorry about the blasphemous post, back to the RGV100
Had to cut a small spigot dia to locate the ignition plate.
Then tap the existing cast hole bosses, no they aren't symmetrical,bastards.
Then spigot plate to locate the stator, then set base timing at around 15*, then tap plate for the stator.
Job done, CR125 DC rotor/stator fitted on the stock key,ready for the Ignitech.

[TZ350]

..... an old Silverchair albulm called Frog Stompin ...... :blink:

247268

Rompa Stompa Frog and his Friends are looking at you ........

247262

Its frog splooge for me untill I have properly researched this g/box oil thing.

[TZ350]

247278

Inlet Divider

247263 247264

I have put a curved divider in my inlet manifold

247265

The idea is that (1) in a curved inlet like mine there tends to be a traffic jam on the outside wall as the inlet charge tries to turn the corner. Basically the divider (2) makes it into a two lane highway insted of a one lane bottle neck.

[Yow Ling]

Inlet Divider

247263 247264

I have put a curved divider in my inlet

247265

The idea is that (Pic 1) in a curved inlet there tends to be a traffic jam on the outside wall as the inlet charge tries to turn the corner. Basically the divider (Pic 2) makes it into a two lane highway insted of a one lane bottle neck.

Why cant you have the disc valve just for air and an injector straight into a turbulent part of the crankcase?

[husaberg]

yeah, but its amazing the crap you hear in closed circles, several years ago in MX circles people were running stupidly low premix rates (more gas, oil doesn't make power etc) & you still hear this sort of thing. I'm sure Wob will have hear Karting lore practices that would make you shake your head. At the local track the Karts all seem to start their engines & rev the living crap out of them from cold for a couple of min & then stop them. Who knows why? Probably 'heat cycles':facepalm:

Silicon spray. . . ok so yeah it won't attract dirt so much & the chain will look cleaner from the outside, but 415 is non o-ring & any water & dirt will enter in the bushes. Silicone won't have any real shear resistance. I'll take real chain lube thanks. in fact I do.

I use gearbox oil in gearboxes & fork oil in forks. I figure the very worst that can happen is that oil companies have decided ATF outperforms the best they can develop so they repackage it. But I don't think so.

If I had an auto engine I'd run ATF, . . .but then again I've heard frogs fluid works better so best start collecting frogs & working out how to press the most splooge out of them:shutup:

How many babies do they have to squeeze to get a bottle of baby oil?:sick:

I wonder how WD40 or silicon would go in the clutch might cut down some friction:scratch:
I too stick with what the oil companies and the manufacturers suggest for lubes, but I do use aerosol chainlube on my cables with a lube doffer thingy.
I do use silicon spray to DE-water the the chain after washing and then dry the chain by spinning the while on the race stand and then lube while hot and dry.
I also use Pledge for polishing the paint work and upholstery, smells nice too.
I use Handy Andy as a spoked wheel cleaner and alloy cleaner to get off crud and oily grime but wash of after use it works well on bare alloy. I use it neat with a small paint brush.
When I was in the Industry we used to use a product called called protectal?/ol. It was sold by Pacer for car grooming. It was put on with a spray paint air gun. It left a long lasting all over shine don't get it near brakes though. My father used to use similar air sprayer for his preferred crud remover which i think was Kerosene or similar.

Regarding the silicon spray on the chain Edit it turns out it is WD40
I tried to get on the site below.
It is a FAQ page on a profession tuner site. The tuner seems to have a pretty good record of success and is not some open forum.
For some reason it wont open for me there may be a problem with my computer or that page because the rest of the site is ok?
They are quite adamant for the ktm50 to use silicon and chain lube for the rest?
I have also used Chainsaw chain and Bar lube oil which is very tacky with a thin bottle nozzle applicator on bike chains with success when in a pinch if anything it seems to extend the incredibly short life of a hd 415 chain on a KTM 50. I wouldn't use this on a road bike though as it is messy.

http://www.thracing.com
http://http://www.thracing.com/FAQ.htm

[speedpro]

Job done, CR125 DC rotor/stator fitted on the stock key,ready for the Ignitech.

The rotor looks to be a bit too far onto the taper. You'll need to make sure you have a washer under the nut that has a large enough ID so the rotor is tightened onto the taper when the nut is done up.

[TZ350]

Why cant you have the disc valve just for air and an injector straight into a turbulent part of the crankcase?

Yes, it may be possible, I have been looking at a MicroSquirt for 2-strokes : http://www.microsquirt.info/indexright.htm

247277

[husaberg]

Yes, it may be possible, I have been looking at a MicroSquirt for 2-strokes : http://www.microsquirt.info/indexright.htm

247277

My understanding of the fuel injection stuff based on the 1990's bikes was direct injection was better for emissions and throttle body injection was the beast for power.
Honda spend a lot of time and money on the NSR500 which Ito rode and it was a missile but his best results were on the carburetor bike as it was techche to ride.
The same for Cagiva maybe technology has improved? There were also problems from memory with fueling on over run as the injection didn't seem to read vacuum signals that well?
The injection problems also doomed the Bimota V500.
I have also read up on the micro squirt it seems some wiz kid has even worked out a way to reprogram them with a iPod.There is also heaps of free information on them.

Although supplementary injection would be real easy to work and really tunable too without breaking the bank in R&D time.


There was an article in Cycle New i picked up over there - quite technical on the new KTM 250 FRR, and it went into some detail about the carbs, cranks and crankcases - apparently designed by 2 Catalan graduates - theyve ony just finished university. Its by Alan Cathcart (who is straight forward no nonsense tester, and interviewing Harold Bartol).

Carbs are ultra short magnesium type and they dont have powerjets at all (have some trick EFI system to monitor fuelling), made by Keihin and are CR flatslides. 38 - 39.5 dia.
Frame is made by Fabtech
Vertex pistons
Magnesium crank cases
Bore and Stroke: 54 x 54.5
270º crank that fires like a 90º crank, in a parallel set up to eliminate stagger on the carbs. (they are trying a 75º crank in testing for this year)
Barells have T Shaped exhaust ports (i thought this was out of fashion these days but hey !), with 5 transfer ports.

Can rev to 17,000 !!!! without seizing because of the EFI system. Injector come on above 14,000 - and get this crank life is 1240 miles between rebuilds !

Settings in carbs are really small Pilot Jets - which gets the bike off slow corners really well and EFI compensates. EFI is also linked to det counter, throttle position, onboard air pressure sensor and temperature sensor and into the z-con digital programmable ignition.

1 set of pipes for all tracks !

Power is "over" 111 HP with 62nm of torque at 12,750.

[Buckets4Me]

How many babies do they have to squeeze to get a bottle of baby oil?:sick:


Regarding the silicon spray on the chain

#1 not many they are messy buggers

#2 ask TZ what he uses for chain lube ( I belive it comes from the boating sector :shutup:


and as for frog sploge i'd like to try this one

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k85mRPqvMbE" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[husaberg]

#1 not many they are messy buggers

#2 ask TZ what he uses for chain lube ( I belive it comes from the boating sector :shutup:

and as for frog sploge i'd like to try this one


Defiantly a two stroke:woohoo: NING NING
I shudder to think what TZ used for Chain lube, I really do. Marine based Hmmmm...
Maybe Cod Liver Oil? he does have a shinny coat:gob:seaweed, dolphin snot, orca semen, Whale blubber oil?
He doesn't heat them up on the stove in a pot of grease like my dad used to does he?
Edit Or is it WD40?

On the subject of chains one tip I picked up from god knows where was (when running a spilt link to facilitate quick gearing changes) I always used to put a bit of coloured RTV on the tail to help keep it there and to make it easy to find when your in a hurry. Fishy swims upstream as well. Rivet link is best on a Big HP bike or long races, but it is a neat trick.

Can anyone else get the FAQ page I posted earlier to load it flashes up for a second for me and then throws a error and conductivity message for me.I have managed to do a screen dump of it now.

It turns out it wasn't silicon, It was WD40 on the site Which is I think Fish oil and solvent? Edit Nah according to there site no fishes were harmed in the manufacture of WD40
From memory developed to protect ammo cases from rust or so the legend goes. Edit No it was for Rockets

[richban]

Here is some 4 stroke shit to annoy you guys - I cant easily post a pic on a PM.
For Rich, here is a pic of carb, I have plenty of different carbs - spigots and bellmouth intakes depending upon what length you want.
The FCRs work real well,should be able to jet them easily enough.
cheers
wob

Thanks for that. Should fit fine. Just for the record its not for the bucket. Although I would love a 33 down draft on the FXR.

[husaberg]

Yes, it may be possible, I have been looking at a MicroSquirt for 2-strokes : http://www.microsquirt.info/indexright.htm

247277

I posted some Posi carb pics a while back and alluded to an article I had read
Here it id the observant amonst you will note how slim it is and how it was designed by the same guy that did the Posi, Lectron, EI and Edlebrock quicksilver and no doubt heaps more.
He later said he was good at imaking HP carbs not so good at choosing business partners. His son worked with Kenny Roberts son Curtis interesting.
This carb came after the Ron Gardner flatside. I have never seen pics of the insides of a Gardner carb. But they had a remote float.I think honda had flatslides in the early 60's

[husaberg]

Hard to believe it was 86 and still looks not that different to the last real gp bikes excluding forks and styling. Last page doesn't fit sorry.

[Yow Ling]

While Wobbly has been doing the hard bits, he left me to do the centreline for the pipe. To be honest I been procrastinating on this a bit, turned out to be way easier than I thought
247333
Step 1 make a big exhaust kebab
247334
fit it to the exhaust port
247335
bend it to fit the available space
247336
man that pipe is fat !

[Buddha#81]

While Wobbly has been doing the hard bits, he left me to do the centreline for the pipe. To be honest I been procrastinating on this a bit, turned out to be way easier than I though

so will it be ready for the GP in Taupo or are we taking 4 Diesels up there?

[Yow Ling]

so will it be ready for the GP in Taupo or are we taking 4 Diesels up there?

4 diesels i think

[richban]

4 diesels i think

Could this be the day the 2 strokes shine. The track will favor hp. But really all tracks favor hp. Last year 1st 2nd 3rd. FXR engine's in FXR frames. This year ??? Hope you boys will have your bikes tuned and ready. I am looking forward to catching up with you all, and some hard racing. Are you ready?

[husaberg]

Could this be the day the 2 strokes shine. The track will favor hp. Are you ready?

It's been awhile since anything, favored the Two stroke.
Other than being lighter, faster, better, more reliable and Cheaper to make and modify.
Why were they banned again, maybe little Global Warming wouldn't be such a bad Idea after all.

Cathcarts Story of the NSR500
The most successful GP engine in History?

[husaberg]

Cathcarts Story of the NSR500
The most successful GP engine in History?
Part 2 of the story

More NSR500 pages
http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/NSR500/
http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/03/saga-of-hrc-honda-nsr500.html
http://www.bloopers.me/Honda-NSR500-Doohan__ousgsIbW7WY.html
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/NSR500.htm
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/Honda_NSR500_MotoGP_Racing_History
http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn309/wiggysan/Old%20Skool%20Race%20Bikes/?start=420

[TZ350]

Could this be the day the 2 strokes shine. The track will favor hp. But really all tracks favor hp. Last year 1st 2nd 3rd. FXR engine's in FXR frames. This year ??? Hope you boys will have your bikes tuned and ready. I am looking forward to catching up with you all, and some hard racing. Are you ready?

I still recon your bike is the one to beat, have you had it on the dyno lately, have you got a graph to post?

[richban]

I still recon your bike is the one to beat, have you had it on the dyno lately, have you got a graph to post?

Yeh it is going really well. I hope it holds together long enough for the GP. BOB will be hard on it. I have given up on the dyno. Every time I go, it just seams like a big wast of money. Something always goes wrong and it ends up costing to much. I think it is running around 26. The Vic Club round at Manfield showed it's potential. Not sure what the real hp of an RG150 is but down the big straight bits we were the same speed.

[koba]

Yeh it is going really well. I hope it holds together long enough for the GP. BOB will be hard on it. I have given up on the dyno. Every time I go, it just seams like a big wast of money. Something always goes wrong and it ends up costing to much. I think it is running around 26. The Vic Club round at Manfield showed it's potential. Not sure what the real hp of an RG150 is but down the big straight bits we were the same speed.

There may have been RG150s run on the same dyno, would be kind of interesting to find out.

I think around 27or a wee bit more from pit-talk.

[koba]

I friendly benefactor has kindly loaned me a treasure trove of two stoke reading to keep me entertained while I'm laid up with a broken wing.

Some of it is 'dated' somewhat but does make fantastic reading and gives a great insight into how attitudes and understandings of things change with advances in technology.

Alot of the fundamental aspects remain unchanged.

From "Two-Stroke PORTS for POWER" by Roy Bacon:

"...while the primary compression ratio determines the maximum engine speed, the transfer ports determine the power output and reliability of the engine by position, timing and direction."

"The transfer port timing and the height of the port are governed by the primary compression ratio and therefore the engine speed."

"Once the primary compression ratio is fixed, the size of the transfer ports and the exhaust lead (Blowdown) can be determined. The use of a high ratio speeds up the transfer process due to the higher crankcase pressures and this enables the size of the transfer passages and ports to be kept down even at high engine speeds. Thus it can be seen that large ports are not necessarily desirable on a high speed engine as the same result can be achieved in a more efficient manner. If a high ratio cannot be obtained, the transfer ports may be made wider increase the total volume of mixture passed but more usually have to be increased in height to give the mixture more time to transfer from the crankcase to the cylinder due to the lower pressure. Should the transfer timing be extended then the exhaust timing will also have to be changed in order to maintain the exhaust lead (Blowdown) This in turn shortens the power stroke and is likely to reduce the torque as well as the maximum power. Thus both acceleration and speed may suffer."


It's interesting seeing how some things have changed and others not so.

"As a general rule, the smaller capacity machines have the larger number of speeds in the gearbox. Thus works racing two strokes may employ a six, seven- or eight-speed gearbox for a 250cc. engine but this figure may rise to ten speeds for a 125 and twelve for a 50cc. engine."

The 3-port engine with loop scavenging is a bit of a novelty at this time by the look of it.

I'm not sure when it was written, it doesn't have a date but I'm guessing probably sometime in the 60's.


That's about the limit of my one-handed typing for tonight! Enjoy!

EDIT: Google tells me it was first published in 1967 http://openlibrary.org/search?q=bacon&author_key=OL2865240A

[husaberg]

I friendly benefactor has kindly loaned me a treasure trove of two stoke reading to keep me entertained while I'm laid up with a broken wing.

Some of it is 'dated' somewhat but does make fantastic reading and gives a great insight into how attitudes and understandings of things change with advances in technology.

Alot of the fundamental aspects remain unchanged.

From "Two-Stroke PORTS for POWER" by Roy Bacon:

That's about the limit of my one-handed typing for tonight! Enjoy!

EDIT: Google tells me it was first published in 1967 http://openlibrary.org/search?q=bacon&author_key=OL2865240A

I've read that book some where it has a Suzuki stinger photo in it and has a large radial finned MX motor on the cover or was that the Draper one
I think it has a port diagram on a 100cc kart motor if I recollect right

[koba]

I've read that book some where it has a Suzuki stinger photo in it and has a large radial finned MX motor on the cover or was that the Draper one
I think it has a port diagram on a 100cc kart motor if I recollect right

Nope, no port diagrams. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-stroke-Ports-Power-Roy-Bacon/dp/0850770076 shows the cover.

[koba]

I guess you are probably thinking of this one:http://www.amazon.ca/Two-Stroke-Tuning-Roy-Bacon/dp/0851840396

EDIT: New, 1981!

[husaberg]

Nope, no port diagrams. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-stroke-Ports-Power-Roy-Bacon/dp/0850770076 shows the cover.

Yes its a little pocket one It has a sister book or books. My old man has it
The book I thinking kind of looks like a Hayes manual in Blue I think.Draper?

I got some two stroke tuning stuff from the fifties if you want a laugh
PM me you Email and I will scan a bit for you.

[koba]

Yes its a little pocket one It has a sister book or books. My old man has it
The book I thinking kind of looks like a Hayes manual in Blue I think.Draper?

I got some two stroke tuning stuff from the fifties if you want a laugh
PM me you Email and I will scan a bit for you.

You have been brilliant on the scanning, that NSR article was fantastic.

[TZ350]

From "Two-Stroke PORTS for POWER" by Roy Bacon:

"...while the primary compression ratio determines the maximum engine speed, the transfer ports determine the power output and reliability of the engine by position, timing and direction."

"The transfer port timing and the height of the port are governed by the primary compression ratio and therefore the engine speed."

"Once the primary compression ratio is fixed, the size of the transfer ports and the exhaust lead (Blowdown) can be determined. The use of a high ratio speeds up the transfer process due to the higher crankcase pressures and this enables the size of the transfer passages and ports to be kept down even at high engine speeds. Thus it can be seen that large ports are not necessarily desirable on a high speed engine as the same result can be achieved in a more efficient manner. If a high ratio cannot be obtained, the transfer ports may be made wider increase the total volume of mixture passed but more usually have to be increased in height to give the mixture more time to transfer from the crankcase to the cylinder due to the lower pressure. Should the transfer timing be extended then the exhaust timing will also have to be changed in order to maintain the exhaust lead (Blowdown) This in turn shortens the power stroke and is likely to reduce the torque as well as the maximum power. Thus both acceleration and speed may suffer."

Great stuff Koba

Late 60's, very interesting, particuarly the bit about transfers being low and wide to maximise blowdown, not much has changed, just detail and refinement.

[TZ350]

You have been brilliant on the scanning, that NSR article was fantastic.

Yes me thinks so 2, and the others as well, +1 +1