ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Kart tuner certainly optimise within a tight set of regulations. If the gloves came off they would do things differently. Interesting to follow the generic basics but I wouldn't be copying an apple to build an orage

Hmmm yes, mr Schrodingers cat, thats central to "The observer's paradox", my favourite bit of nonsence is, "The world must be flat because you can’t pitch a tent on a sphere".

But I think your right, I wouldn't be copying an apple to build an orange either but as God wrote the natural laws that govern all fruit.

Then probably apples, oranges, grapes and bananas are all worth checking out for any revelations, science, observation and an open mind are the means by which mankind discovers his handy work.

[bucketracer]

......... probably apples, oranges, grapes and bananas are all worth checking out for any revelations.

May I mention, pears, feijoas and grape fruit are worth a thoroughly good look too.................

[Buckets4Me]

you gone all fruity ??

[SS90]

Kart tuner certainly optimise within a tight set of regulations. If the gloves came off they would do things differently. Interesting to follow the generic basics but I wouldn't be copying an apple to build an orage

I agree, when the Kart tuners are able to have a free hand (non control classes), they always seem to be able to extract more power than the (average) national level motorcycle GP rider/tuner.

I have seen 250 gearbox class karts with 250cc GP engines pushing towards 100PS at a national level in NZ, (perhaps some even exceeded that)

It may be budgets, or perhaps the higher level of competition (karts being slightly easier to race at a top level than 250GP bikes), that in an effort to win, every little bit is required from an engine. (double the braking power and traction over a bike is a big advantage)

Actually, I remember Kiakaha having a friggen rope attached from the frame of his 250 kart to his helmet keeping his head from snapping back (off) under acceleration.

[Buddha#81]

Actually, I remember Kiakaha having a friggen rope attached from the frame of his 250 kart to his helmet keeping his head from snapping back (off) under acceleration.

Thats because he is weak and old........ so much so he can't even ride a trike (as a passenger) and a real bike at the same meeting now. Blardy pussy!

[Kickaha]

Actually, I remember Kiakaha having a friggen rope attached from the frame of his 250 kart to his helmet keeping his head from snapping back (off) under acceleration.

From my Helmet to my belt, no way I would attach to the frame in case I came out of it,it was more because the headrest on my seat didn't go quite high enough so at full noise the helmet would try to roll over the top of it

Nigel in his Kart hit 1.28 full ruapuna cicuit at a time when the top SBK were 1.32


Thats because he is weak and old........ so much so he can't even ride a trike (as a passenger) and a real bike at the same meeting now. Blardy pussy!

Says the guy who couldn't do three races on the outfit and had to sub someone else in and even parked his Motard up cause he was to much of a pussy to ride it :finger:

[SS90]

From my Helmet to my belt, no way I would attach to the frame in case I came out of it,it was more because the headrest on my seat didn't go quite high enough so at full noise the helmet would try to roll over the top of it



Actually, yea, that makes more sense!

[Buckets4Me]

Team E.S.E are now trying to address the talent issue (they heard you have to start young)

[Buckets4Me]

and other teams have been spotted doing the same thing
207486207489
207488 Ricks son out for a try

207487 Joseph TZ350 grandchild
207490 Robert TZ350 grandchild

[Buckets4Me]

just a few photoes to show my frame and the new bracket for hanging the frount of the engine off

207513 The bike at the moment (the garage is a mess I know)
207516 Old radiator mount that was starting to crach (I know I know it was easy)
207517 New engine mout to take it's place
207515
207518 Lets hope I dont have to do a follow up on this :)

[Rick 52]

Will is very keen for another go on Sunday I hope it will be dry should be fun .

[Buckets4Me]

Will is very keen for another go on Sunday I hope it will be dry should be fun .

teach him the second leasson of racing bring a rain coat


first was fallin off with style (thanks Pumba)

[Pumba]

teach him the first leasson of racing bring a rain coat

Damm I thought it was how to fall off with grace and style?

[Kickaha]

Team E.S.E are now trying to address the talent issue

So they're looking for some South Island riders then? :bleh:

[Bert]

and why not
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3938730721422144363#
the concerning thing is that they are going faster than my bucket ever will.


what about these puppies for sh!ts and giggles if your feeling rich ( i think someone posted them before):
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html

[Buckets4Me]

So they're looking for some South Island riders then? :bleh:

no sorry you lost that one

when you guys tryed out for that you where being laped by a girl !!!

[bucketracer]

no sorry you lost that one, when you guys tried out for that, you got lapped by a girl !!!

Buckets, don't poke fun at the south island boys or they will remind us how after lapping nearly every one, she had to push the bike back in........

[Kickaha]

no sorry you lost that one

when you guys tryed out for that you where being laped by a girl !!!


Remind me where she finished again?

[Buckets4Me]

Remind me where she finished again?

think she got boored and left early

[Kickaha]

dose it realy matter 40 minits into the race she had laped most and was infrount of all but 1 and she was only a girl. Do we realy need you sotherners to teach us to race

DNF = FAIL

Maybe you need some lessons on finishing races

[Buckets4Me]

DNF = booring

Maybe you need some lessons on finishing races

only the interesting ones

it gets booring in the lead

[bucketracer]

Maybe you need some lessons on finishing races

Having proved her point at the front, as the visitor, I think she politely stood aside for the southern men, didn't want to upstage them ......:bleh:

[Kickaha]

Having proved her point at the front, as the visitor, I think she politely stood aside for the southern men, didn't want to upstage them ......:bleh:

:yawn: I guess you guys are used to making excuses about why other people beat you, after all you've had plenty of practice at it

[bucketracer]

Yes we have, and our rejoinders are clever too.........:laugh:

[bucketracer]

If you find yourself trying to figure out why your CDI is not sparking, you need to check for a pulsed output from the trigger and CDI generator coils.

To do this, you can use one of those old style analog meters with a moving needle, for a pulsed output, a digital is to slow to register anything.

Kicking the motor over, you won't get to measure the real voltage output, but an analog's needle will flick whenever there is a pulse, telling you the stator is still alive. You can use it to check the CDI is discharging to the coil too.

The CDI generator and discharge voltage is about 2-300V.

But don't try to test the Plug side of the coil as that's 15-20kV and will fry the meter.

Set the meter on the 200V AC range for the trigger coil, and 700V AC for the CDI generator coil and CDI discharge.

You can find really cheep analog meters at Dick Smiths or JayCar.

Analog Meter Pic-01

[Yow Ling]

are you having trouble with the flash ignition?
I just did one worked 2nd pop, had to turn on the petrol !

[bucketracer]

........ flash ignition? I just did one.........

.....tell us more..........and yes, we have had a bit of bother, we keep popping timing lights, done three so far.

[Bert]

To do this, you can use one of those old style analog meters with a moving needle, for a pulsed output, a digital is to slow to register anything.

but an analog's needle will flick whenever there is a pulse, telling you the stator is still alive. You can use it to check the CDI is discharging to the coil too.

The CDI generator and discharge voltage is about 2-300V.

But don't try to test the Plug side of the coil as that's 15-20kV and will fry the meter.

Set the meter on the 200V AC range for the trigger coil, and 700V AC for the CDI generator coil and CDI discharge.



That's a great bit of advice,
another little addon to that is checking the internal resistance of the coils (more so checking that there is resistance).
If there isn't, then you know you are going to have issues (something grounding in the coils)...
many CDIs also have published checks as well (but you would have to find a workshop manual)

[Henk]

Internal resistance of the coils will be seriously low I would have thought. Impedance may be another thing but since multimeters measure DC resistance would expect somewhere between 10 Ohms and so close to nothing you can't tell depending on how the coil is configured and which taps you are measuring.

[bucketracer]

It's Dad's birthday so I thought the team could review some of the things he has posted here.........


We figured we could get a fairly good result by CC’ing the bore with the piston at TDC, then the head and then adding the two results together. Working with what we could find........

[bucketracer]

Looking to improve power by reducing crankcase temperature.......


With this copper/heat shield stack I hope to add extra cooling to the barrel and keep the heat from transferring to the crankcase for a cooler incoming air/fuel charge.

[bucketracer]

Copper has twice the thermal conductivity of aluminum.

So, very clever, the copper head gasket forms a cool squish area and extends out to be an extra high efficiency cooling fin..........


I think that if I can reduce the heat uptake of the exhaust into the cylinder and get the lower cylinder fin to run at less than 100 then the head will run less than 80 and that would be very good as I will be able to tune it closer to the power output of a water cooled motor.

[bucketracer]

Ducting cooling air to the head and barrel.............


ducting for cooling the head, we want 26 - 28 rwhp from this engine next year.

[bucketracer]

Finds some real info on port shapes and shares it with us............like he does with all the good stuff he finds on the net....


The main things that make more power, are, and in order of priority (1) the primary transfer tangental angle, (2) the inner transfer port radius, (3) the main transfer port axial inclination, (4) and main transfer port open size and shape. All high lighted in pic 2.

Get a copy of the paper from here:- http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/pdfjes/porting.pdf .

[bucketracer]

Finds on the dyno that retarding the ignition extends the RPM of his bike about 500 and that Ignitech programmable ignitions could be the go......



What I would like is the fixed ignition curve to 10,500revs then have the retard kick in for over rev to 12,000.

[bucketracer]

Shows us how to improve the flow through a 24mm carb..................

[bucketracer]

TeeZee's clever plenum chamber ideas to get around the restriction of a 24mm carb................


………could this work? a 24mm carb feeding into a plenum chamber and the 34mm rotary valve inlet feeding directly from the chamber to the motor. That way the motor sucks full atmospheric pressure through a high flow 34mm bell-mouth and at WOT the restrictive 24mm carb has much more time to refill the plenum.

[bucketracer]

.

And did it work?..................Yes Sir, it sure does...............and starts so easily too.......

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ta da!

[bucketracer]

.

Happy Birthday Dad.......We Love Your Work............

[bucketracer]

Some of the fast Buckets and Riders at Mt Welly......the team are looking forward to seeing you out there again and keeping them honest....

[Henk]

Wrong. You've got me in there and I'm far from fast.
The rest of them fair hook along though.

[TZ350]

Hi Henk, I have started getting my 50 together, with Thomas's help I should be ready for the next meet, how much do you need to do to get your 50 on the track?

I got the new slicks from Fi5hy, I figure that the F5 class should be real fun while I get the F4 ready for Taupo..........

[Henk]

Not a lot realy but with the trickery you have going on there you'll be battling for first while I'm strolling around in last.
My 50 is a bog stock MB.
Probably won't look at it this month since I'm a bit busy ayway and will be concentrating on putting the FXR motor back together in a way that it hopefully doesn't explode again.

[TZ350]

At the mo, there is only three F5 riders that regularly turn up and they are all fast guys. If no one else gets out there I will be riding around at the tail end all by myself.

[bucketracer]

Remember that guy who was building an electric bucket, well check this out, this electric job has some real punch...............

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fHtAkM3CYLA&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fHtAkM3CYLA&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

and then there is the old school sound of heavy metal...................

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ev72ppww7Q&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ev72ppww7Q&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

and then there is this one that sounds a lot like TeeZee's bucket...............

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[F5 Dave]

Yeah I figured the electric bucket would never show, well it hasn't so far- so prove me wrong.

Go the 50's. Fishy had his 50 out last dry Kiatoke meet & it was a hoot having someone to ride against. AA took his 50 out & loved it. Certainly something that a 50 has that inspires in the riding experience with only so much power that a bigger bike doesn't.

[TZ350]

Yeah I figured the electric bucket would never show, well it hasn't so far- so prove me wrong.

Go the 50's. Fishy had his 50 out last dry Kiatoke meet & it was a hoot having someone to ride against. AA took his 50 out & loved it. Certainly something that a 50 has that inspires in the riding experience with only so much power that a bigger bike doesn't.

The electric bucket would be interesting.

I have had a few rides on Buckets4me's 50 and really enjoyed it. So very keen to get mine going. My biggest hurdle is keeping to the 50cc limit, as all the decent pistons are about 43-44mm. I am making another de-stroked crank, the first proved to loose in the pinholes but at least I found it could be done and am working on another one that hopefully will fit up OK.

In B grade they keep knocking each other off, lack of experience I guess and A grade is a bit over subscribed at the mo so I think F5 should be fun, and with another 10 years development on my bike I might be able to give you a decent race for your money, until then I will have fun making up the numbers on the grid.

[Bren_chch]

there is quite a cool rg150 converted in to an electric bike here. i'd like to build a good 50, just seem to have no time!

[jasonu]

Hi Henk, I have started getting my 50 together, with Thomas's help I should be ready for the next meet, how much do you need to do to get your 50 on the track?

I got the new slicks from Fi5hy, I figure that the F5 class should be real fun while I get the F4 ready for Taupo..........

You will need better forks and complete rear end to keep up. They will both twist and flex if pushed especially at a Track like Taupo. Ditch the RG50 calipers too. I know where there is a bridged exhaust port RG50 cylinder if you are interested.

[TZ350]

You will need better forks and complete rear end to keep up. They will both twist and flex.........

Chambers intends putting his old GP forks into his 50.

I will get it going first and then I was thinking about re-cycling the GP forks or even some RG250 ones. I have a spare frame and some forks, so after I get this one going I will look at improvements.

[Buckets4Me]

You will need better forks and complete rear end to keep up. They will both twist and flex if pushed especially at a Track like Taupo. Ditch the RG50 calipers too. I know where there is a bridged exhaust port RG50 cylinder if you are interested.

well I ran around Taupo 2 years in a row in 4th till I had trouble finished 5th the first year, the second year I was beating F5Dave for quite a few laps (till he got the bike going and off the start line)
and all with the standard rg50 frame forks and brakes :)


guess it's not what you ride but who els is riding at the same time

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I replaced the whole damn carb now, was getting sick of that whole "will it flood won't it?" silly non replaceable float jets.

[Buckets4Me]

Yeah I replaced the whole damn carb now, was getting sick of that whole "will it flood won't it?" silly non replaceable float jets.

so thats what i got to play with this year :)
looks like there may be twice as many 50's out there this year :)

[Kickaha]

so thats what i got to play with this year :)
looks like there may be twice as many 50's out there this year :)

If there is enough interest a 50cc class wil run at the Battle of the Buckets 7/08/2010 with the NZ 50cc GP title up for grabs, anyone interested Pm Bren_chch and let him know

[Buckets4Me]

If there is enough interest a 50cc class wil run at the Battle of the Buckets 7/08/2010 with the NZ 50cc GP title up for grabs, anyone interested Pm Bren_chch and let him know

how can the 50cc gp title be up for grabs at two events in the same year ????

wish I could make it down that way but the Doctor may have something to say about it (if not him she who holds the purse strings)

[Kickaha]

how can the 50cc gp title be up for grabs at two events in the same year ????


It isn't, it is only up for grabs down here, you work it out :bleh:

[Buckets4Me]

It isn't, it is only up for grabs down here, you work it out :bleh:

so all the 50's are up here and you decide to run the gp down there
is that so you have a chance on that mb50 of your's ????

lol guess F5Dave will be taking it home again

[speedpro]

so all the 50's are up here and you decide to run the gp down there
is that so you have a chance on that mb50 of your's ????

lol guess F5Dave will be taking it home again
Unless Gosper gets all keen though he has a bit of catching up to do now I think.

[Kickaha]

so all the 50's are up here and you decide to run the gp down there
is that so you have a chance on that mb50 of your's ????

lol guess F5Dave will be taking it home again

There are a few 50's down here but as we run larger tracks no one really bothers with them, the bike I rode last year was raced in the 50cc NZGP back in the eighties and is RM50 based

[Buckets4Me]

the bike I rode last year was raced in the 50cc NZGP back in the eighties and is RM50 based

50cc NZGP lol sorry was thinking you where talking about the F5 gp ha hah ha
na that would be fun and interesting to see and attend (one year I will)

I want photos or id didn't happen :)

[TZ350]

Chambers FZR-GP100 is nearing completion, looks smart with its wire wheels.

[TZ350]

There are a few 50's down here.............the bike I rode last year was raced in the 50cc NZGP back in the eighties and is RM50 based

Good one Kickaha, had me thinking there for a bit RM50's in F5?????...........F5GP and 50cc NZGP one in the north and the other in the south, seems a fair split and another good reason to travel south.

[TZ350]

Weighing Chambers 22.5 rwhp FZR-GP100, 42kg front, 40Kg rear, total 82kg dry. Sure we have to fit a seat and handle bars yet, but we can see some things we can do to remove more weight too, like changing the rear caliper for a light weight pit bike unit. So hopefully when its all finished it will be 80kg all up, dry. Those wire wheels make a big difference, I think FXR150's are about 18rwhp on a good day, but how much do they weigh?

[Henk]

Mine came in at 105 with enough gas in the tank for a day.

[gatch]

Weighing Chambers 22.5 rwhp FZR-GP100, 42kg front, 40Kg rear, total 82kg dry. Sure we have to fit a seat and handle bars yet, but we can see some things to do to remove more weight too, like changing the rear caliper for a light weight pit bike unit. So hopefully when its all finished it will be 80kg all up, dry. Those wire wheels make a big difference, I think FXR150's are about 18rwhp on a good day, but how much do they weigh?

How much of a saving have you made with wire vs alloy wheels ?

And yes they do look pretty trick. Good work.

[jasonu]

That tank weighs a lot. I made a fibreglass mold of a 1991 RS125 tank and foamed in an ali fuel cell, saved nearly 2kg.

[TZ350]

That tank weighs a lot. I made a fibreglass mold of a 1991 RS125 tank and foamed in an ali fuel cell, saved nearly 2kg.

Thanks, good idea........

[TZ350]

How much of a saving have you made with wire vs alloy wheels ?

Yes, we will have to check that again sometime, as its not only the wheels but sprocket carrier, disks, calliper, Etc. about 9-10 kg is my guess, it would be interesting to know for sure.

[bucketracer]

20Kg lighter than an FXR and handling to match or bettor and power to burn, this is starting to look interesting.

[Buckets4Me]

That tank weighs a lot. I made a fibreglass mold of a 1991 RS125 tank and foamed in an ali fuel cell, saved nearly 2kg.

we have a spare rs125 tank lying around :)

[bucketracer]

Or you could copy this little beauty's idea for fuel tank.............

[Pumba]

That tank weighs a lot. I made a fibreglass mold of a 1991 RS125 tank and foamed in an ali fuel cell, saved nearly 2kg.

Hmmm I spy a new project, how big did you make the tank underneath?

[Henk]

Pumba. For Mt wellington half a litre is more than enough. If you want to save weight go for 250 ml.

[jasonu]

I don't remember the actual capacity but I remember makeing sure it would go a full length GP easily.
I actually have the completed used item in the pic I am finished with if you are interested. You would have to mod the mounting fittings to suiit your frame but all the hard work is done, turned filler neck, petcock mount ect.
Let me know

[Buckets4Me]

Pumba. For Mt wellington half a litre is more than enough. If you want to save weight go for 250 ml.

that wont get you far in the 2 hour ????
pit stop and refill evry 10 minits

on the other hand I cant ride for much longer so not such a bad idear

[Henk]

Don't tell him that. Enough gas for five and a half laps would be perfect.

[richban]

Weighing Chambers 22.5 rwhp FZR-GP100, 42kg front, 40Kg rear, total 82kg dry. Sure we have to fit a seat and handle bars yet, but we can see some things we can do to remove more weight too, like changing the rear caliper for a light weight pit bike unit. So hopefully when its all finished it will be 80kg all up, dry. Those wire wheels make a big difference, I think FXR150's are about 18rwhp on a good day, but how much do they weigh?

Interesting. I am building a new bike at the mo as well. RGV VJ 22 with me FXR motor and RS125 wheels I am hoping for 80kg and 24hp Deadline is Taupo. I will post some pic's when I have something interesting to show at the mo I am drilling the crap out of the swing arm and hacking up the frame. I will have some dyno charts after BOB.

[jasonu]

Interesting. I am building a new bike at the mo as well. RGV VJ 22 with me FXR motor and RS125 wheels I am hoping for 80kg and 24hp Deadline is Taupo. I will post some pic's when I have something interesting to show at the mo I am drilling the crap out of the swing arm and hacking up the frame. I will have some dyno charts after BOB.

Make sure to drill plenty of holes around the steering head and cut off any unnecessary frame braceing too. Replaceing steel axel and swingarm bolts with plastic ones saves heaps too. :shifty:

[bucketracer]

Two-stroke ignition systems http://www.strappe.com/ignition.html

How you can read spark plugs and select them - by Gordon Jennings http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html

Suspension tuning http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html sag, spring rate, fork oil, oil weight, oil level and emulators.

[Buckets4Me]

Interesting. I am building a new bike at the mo as well. RGV VJ 22 with me FXR motor and RS125 wheels I am hoping for 80kg and 24hp Deadline is Taupo. I will post some pic's when I have something interesting to show at the mo I am drilling the crap out of the swing arm and hacking up the frame. I will have some dyno charts after BOB.

you dont need to be any faster

[TZ350]

Interesting. I am building a new bike at the mo as well. RGV VJ 22 with me FXR motor and RS125 wheels I am hoping for 80kg and 24hp Deadline is Taupo. I will post some pic's when I have something interesting to show at the mo I am drilling the crap out of the swing arm and hacking up the frame. I will have some dyno charts after BOB.

Sounds the biz, I am looking forward to the dyno charts and a few pics and vital stats, if poss, Taupo is the must do meeting for us as there are so many interesting bikes, looking forward to seeing you there if you can make it.

Would love to get to the BOB, thinking of flying down just to spectate and meet a few of the interesting KiwiBiker people and put a few faces to the online names.......

[richban]

you dont need to be any faster

Don't know about faster. Just keen to finish this time!

[richban]

Sounds the biz, I am looking forward to the dyno charts and a few pics and vital stats, if poss, Taupo is the must do meeting for us as there are so many interesting bikes, looking forward to seeing you there if you can make it.

Would love to get to the BOB, thinking of flying down just to spectate and meet a few of the interesting KiwiBiker people and put a few faces to the online names.......

I will take some photos in the next couple of days and post them. I plan on fitting an ignitech ignition before BOB. How is the software side of things, eazy to use? Now that BOB is mid year it would be great if there was a massive field bring the Team.

[TZ350]

I will take some photos in the next couple of days and post them. I plan on fitting an ignitech ignition before BOB. How is the software side of things, eazy to use? Now that BOB is mid year it would be great if there was a massive field bring the Team.

Thanks, the photos will be interesting and the team would love to get to the BOB.

I dug up a previous post for you on setting up Ignitech ignitions.


“Save the stuffing around and go buy one of these digital, programmable ignitions http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm originally posted by K14 ”

We have taken K14’s advice and purchased a digital/programable DC-CDIP 2 Race 2-Stroke IgniTech ignition.

“This is about the latest RACE Ignitech and our ignition systems: http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech_race.htm

Here is an article showing how to modify the RZ hardware to allow use of the Ignitech twin cdi module, eliminating the wasted spark system and giving full control over all electronic functions. http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech.htm “.


The setup info was found on the Two-Stroke Shop www.twostrokeshop.com site.

There are also units for 4-Stroke, they can be purchased from The Two-Stroke Shop or directly from IgniTech. http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

.


Setup info here:- http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech_race.htm and http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech.htm

Once I got my head around the "Base Advance" bit shown in the pics below the rest was easy. You need a laptop with a serial port or USB/Serial emulator(which didn't work well for us), the laptop can be left connected to the bike while its running and changes made on the fly. So you can make quick changes between dyno runs.

The actual software can be down loaded from here for free http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm we have the dccdip2_en version.

I suggest, if you get a unit like ours that you have the plug pre-wired with 2m flying leads, saves a lot of hassle.

[richban]

Cheers great help good to see the app side.

I emailed ignitech a while ago after first seeing your posts on the products and they have a Plug and play unit available. Just got to get the cash together and we are cooking.

[TZ350]

Cheers great help good to see the app side.

I emailed ignitech a while ago after first seeing your posts on the products and they have a Plug and play unit available. Just got to get the cash together and we are cooking.

I forgot yours will be for a 4-stroke, still software setup much the same I guess. We found it difficult talking with them by email, had to keep the questions/replies short and only one at a time and to the point.

When we ordered we sent pictures scraped of their sight of the items we wanted. We found the language barrier a little difficult but they were always trying to be helpful. Top lot I recon...........

[TZ350]

I built this frame for my bucket. So far it handles very well. The rear monoshock is far superior to the old twin shock. Roll on Bears winter series.

Old Hondas never die.

Total weight 74 Kg.

See here

http://www.marshland.co.nz/CB150Frame.html

Check it out.......74Kg......150cc........Looks Good.............:cry:

[TZ350]

Is this a down draft carburettor or what. I found a 28mm carb that has a bit of a down draft angle to it and hoped to use it on the 50 as the barrel has a steep down draft angle to the inlet tract.

The possible problem is the angle of the float bowl, I had hoped it would be level like Chambers one is, but mine is tipped up, So I hope it can still be made to work, tipped up like that.

[F5 Dave]

Haha, good luck with that. First time I set up my RG all happened in about a couple of weeks before the GP many moons ago when I had blown up my MB50 for the last time & decided to do an RG a mate sold me. I set up the carb fairly similar with the engine on the bench. Looked good. - Then put it in the frame & noticed it cantered forward. Oh dear.

Take it from experience, live with the bend, get that float flat. That first GP it had run well on the dyno but wouldn't run around a track.

Also while you are sawing off that manifold weld on a flat plate & use a GP125 inlet rubber (actually it will be super tight & an X7 one I think is bigger) but that will stop it falling off at the critical moment. . . . Unless of course you know better.

That front vent(?) on the carb is odd, I've had many of those Mik flatsides & never seen that. I'd check out what it is & decide whether to block it.

[TZ350]

That front vent(?) on the carb is odd, I've had many of those Mik flatsides & never seen that. I'd check out what it is & decide whether to block it.

That vent, first time I noticed it, was tonight while posting up the photos.


when I had blown up my MB50 for the last time & decided to do an RG a mate sold me. I set up the carb fairly similar with the engine on the bench. Looked good. - Then put it in the frame & noticed it cantered forward. Oh dear.

Looks like I have been caught out by the same thing too.

All the cylinders I have are other peoples cast offs, guess someone got the downdraft angle wrong and I didn't notice until I put the motor in the bike, it looked OK on the bench.

I have another cylinder that someone had started to convert to full reed, might have to finish it and use that one instead.

[TZ350]

Checking out the ground clearance on Chambers FZR-GP100. With the springs removed and the suspension completely compressed the tip of the foot pegs just touched at 40 degrees, would have liked it to be 45, but every thing else like chamber and gear/brake levers have much further to go, so no clearance problems there.

[F5 Dave]

So cut the footpegs down, they are touring models currently.

Just use the std RG barrel but weld a plate to it & make a curve, that's what mine is.

[TZ350]

So cut the footpegs down, they are touring models currently.

Just use the std RG barrel but weld a plate to it & make a curve, that's what mine is.

Thanks, good idea's........

[bucketracer]

.

PDF of NGK racing plugs here:- http://www.elit.cz/Files/ObrazkyPModdeleni/Elektro/NGK/brochure_racingplugs_ENG.pdf

[bucketracer]

.

We need to make ourselves a dyno..........

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[bucketracer]

.

OK TeeZee enough with the plenum chamber........plenty of turbos lying around the workshop.........a Jet Bucket is the way to go.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yy4KH88tLSY&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yy4KH88tLSY&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Pumba]

We need to make ourselves a dyno..........

This has been discussed several times. At the rate ESE develop stuff we should see it in about 2015.

[Buckets4Me]

This has been discussed several times. At the rate ESE develop stuff we should see it in about 2035.

fixed

by the way thats when the grandkids will be getting into it with gusto :)

[TZ350]

.

Finished by 2035, why whats the rush?????...........:laugh:

[Buckets4Me]

.

Finished by 2035, why whats the rush?????...........:laugh:

Grandkids remember :)

[Pumba]

Grandkids remember :)

What yours Karl:laugh:

[TZ350]

In building a Dyno, we found one of the harder design problems to overcome is the task of reading the RPM from the ignition spark plug lead and this held us up for a while.

The problem is that the ignition output varies with engine load and its amplitude is basically all over the place, with a lot of ringing and electrical noise. So there needs to be a way to get a clean signal with a consistent amplitude and shape that can be read by a computer easily.

SportsDevices show how this can be done with a 555 timer:-
http://www.sportdevices.com/rpm_readings/index.htm

JayCar sell a (Neon Tube Sound Display) kit, KC5221 with a LM555 timer that can be modified fairly easily. Unfortunately the kit can only be brought online from their “Kit Back Catalog”:- http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productResults.asp?keywords=5221&keyform=KEYWORD&SUBMIT.x=21&SUBMIT.y=5

The spark rate at 12,000 RPM for a single cylinder one spark per rev., 2-Stroke is equivalent to 200Hz, or 200 sparks per second. So the on and off time or width of the output pulse from the LM555 at 12,000 RPM should probably be a 50% duty cycle, 1/400 or 0.0025 mSec so as to get a nice consistent square wave that can be easily recognized by the computers software.

Go here, or check out Pic-04 for calculating the resistor and capacitor needed for “on” time or width of the output pulse.

LM555 Monostable Oscillator Circuit Diagram and Timing Calculator http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM555.html#3

Pic-01 JayCars KC5221 Kit.
Pic-02 SportsDevices circuit.
Pic-03 a LM555 monostable oscillator circuit.
Pic-04 LM555 timing values.

[Bert]

why not one of these http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=293504620
or put a break out lead on your timing light cables (it would produce a voltage spike every spark; which could be easily turned into a frequency; then connected into your computer parallel port.
one would need to make sure you don't put more than 5v up the port (easy fix with a few resisters)...

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/parallel_output.html#input
provides some insight (and code snips), but some quality time spent googling will un-earth what you require to fully build up the required code.
or look for a USB interface option http://www.usbee.com/freqc.html

most simple data loggers would sort out this for you (including the maths) and you could log other parameters like temp etc....

[k14]

If you are using an ignitech you can just hook up to the tacho output i would have thought?

[TZ350]

Hi Bert, lots of interesting reading there, thanks, we want to build a dyno that any small bike can use, so the rpm pickup has to be universal.

k14, I had forgotten about using the tacho output, but that is a good idea. Earlier last year I had downloaded some software that read a tape recording of the ignition and produced a dyno graph, it worked on the inertia principal much like an inertia dyno does. The problem was getting a good recording, but with the taco output it should be much easier if I need to go there again.

[TZ350]

.

Trial fit of the chain on Chambers FZR/GP100 with a 13T front sprocket. At full extension the chain just touches the top of the swingarm and at full compresion its clear of the underside. With normal chain tension at the midpoint, the chain is not unduly slack at any other point in the swingarm travel. For Taupo and other long tracks Chambers plans on runing a larger front sprocket, 16-17T Looks like it should all work ok.

[TZ350]

.

Chambers has also been busy fitting the rear wheel and front end from his old GP100 rolling chasis to his RG50. It looks the business with slicks on wide rims compaired to the original skinny RG50 wheels.

[SS90]

What stirling work...... I do look forward to team ESE winning a race...... it is long over due

[TZ350]

.

Handy Port Timing Calculator. For Calculating Port Timing from Port Height and Vice Versa

http://www.lostsoulssc.com/porttiming.htm

[TZ350]

.

Interesting new 2-Stroke engine from Lotus:- http://www.grouplotus.com/manageshowcase/uploadpassthru/8628.swf

[TZ350]

.

And.........

Fundamentals:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter1.doc

Pipes:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter2.doc

Chambers:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter3.doc

[Buckets4Me]

What stirling work......

why thank you


I do look forward to team ESE winning a race...... it is long over due

a picture say a thousand words and many a race has been won thanks.

[TZ350]

.

This thread amongst other things is intended for those who are actually doing something, to post about what they are up too, and why.

And it doesn’t much matter if they are winning races or not.

For most, like me, doing well in our own way, is what keeps us interested.

Bucketiers who are doing something are much more interesting than the empty talk of the self proclaimed expert.

So Boys, its time you took your friend with the attatude, and all the silly talk some place else, may be over to his house.

[TZ350]

.
Chambers is getting very close to being finished on his RG50, just a few things to finish like this bracket for the rear brake cable.

[TZ350]

.
My own 50 is coming along, I have got all the cables, chain and ignition sorted now.

The side cover is cut away over the ignition stator so the timing can be easily adjusted on the dyno, the cover will be replaced when the engine is dialled in.

Next job is to cut the new squish and CC the head, aiming for 3cc or 8.5:1 corrected compression ratio.

[Bert]

Looking Good TZ, its good to see more 50s coming back out of the woodwork.

I think one of these will be my next project (only need to find a motor; as I still have a RG frame)...

[Buckets4Me]

.
Chambers is getting very close to being finished on his RG50, just a few things to finish like this bracket for the rear brake cable.

and a new seat

[F5 Dave]

17.7:1 that's pretty high. you may suppress high rpm power. Better to run lower & a smaller stinger/baffle angle.


Well I've been working on the 50 too. I've made up some ally bosses to be welded to the footpeg hanger mounts so I can lower the footpegs. It appears I'm getting older & its getting too uncomfortable for a long race. . . or even a short one.

[speedpro]

Agree with Dave on this one, that compression is really really getting up there. If you get your ports and pipe working the trapped volume will be too great with that compression.

[TZ350]

17.7:1 that's pretty high. you may suppress high rpm power. Better to run lower & a smaller stinger/baffle angle.


Well I've been working on the 50 too. I've made up some ally bosses to be welded to the footpeg hanger mounts so I can lower the footpegs. It appears I'm getting older & its getting too uncomfortable for a long race. . . or even a short one.


Agree with Dave on this one, that compression is really really getting up there. If you get your ports and pipe working the trapped volume will be too great with that compression.

Thanks guys for the heads up, will revisit my calc and I can understand the need for improved riding comfort F5.

[gatch]

.
My own 50 is coming along, I have got all the cables, chain and ignition sorted now.

The side cover is cut away over the ignition stator so the timing can be easily adjusted on the dyno, the cover will be replaced when the engine is dialled in.

Next job is to cut the new squish and CC the head, aiming for 3cc or 8.5:1 corrected compression ratio.

Why on earth have you got that fixture so far out of the chuck ?

[TZ350]

Chambers runs his 22.5 rwhp GP100 at 8:1, I was skeptical but it seems to have worked out OK for him.

Looks like CV of 3.25cc for a compression ratio of 8:1 and 16:1 uncorrected...........

The changes in volume are so small the clearance inside the plug and variations in the squish volume will have a significant effect.........I will have to take my time getting this right.

[TZ350]

Why on earth have you got that fixture so far out of the chuck ?

Yep its not a good look, the fixture was made for air cooled GP cylinder heads and a bigger lathe, the shank is to large to fit inside the smaller chuck on our lathe. There is a smaller fixture but I couldn't find it today.

[gatch]

Yep its not a good look, the fixture was made for air cooled GP cylinder heads and a bigger lathe, the shank is to large to fit inside the smaller head stock of our lathe. There is a smaller fixture but I couldn't find it today.

You can't just cut that one in half or turn the shank down ?

[TZ350]

You can't just cut that one in half or turn the shank down ?

Turn the shank down, that's possible, cut in half, no, its been made with a draw bolt through it and has other uses, I will search out the correct one tomorrow when the team is back at work.

[Buckets4Me]

You can't just cut that one in half or turn the shank down ?

or use a Dremal

[F5 Dave]

Yeah you will need to measure comm 3 times to make sure you have your procedure down pat & can believe the results, it changes super quick the smaller you go. RG heads also tend to 'cone' a little so I used to lap the head with a flat oilstone every so often. When I remeasured it a few years later it had shot up 2 points in com!

[TZ350]

.

A bit of real bucket racing...........................

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And more from the Hill.

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If I had a personal list of top ten riders, Fish would be right up there..........

[Pumba]

WTF who the hell put this thread in PD. FFS I thought the bucket forum escaped al the BS the rest of the site was subject to. Looks like I was wrong

[gav]

WTF who the hell put this thread in PD. FFS I thought the bucket forum escaped al the BS the rest of the site was subject to. Looks like I was wrong
I dont know who moved it mate, but Ive moved it back again. Its one of the best threads on KB :)

[TZ350]

.

Thanks Gav.

I think the boys had been getting a little silly on another thread and someone gave them all time out in the naughty room.

[gav]

.

Thanks Gav.

I think the boys had been getting a little silly on another thread and someone gave them all time out in the naughty room.
Yep, thats seems to be what has happened :( , just try and clean it a bit clean and we should be fine, hehehe

[Yow Ling]

Just leaked Joe2
aiming for 28rwhp

[TZ350]

.

Oh my God....suddenly we are feeling very behind the times with our air cooled engines...........good looking effort, like Jasonu's, much impressed.

[speedpro]

tnat's the only engine combination that is as good or better than an MB100 with 6 speed. The box on the 125 is near perfect. The clutch needs a bit of work and the stock rods need to be changed but otherwise very very nice. 28hp is going to be a test of the clutch

[gatch]

This competition parts rule.. What exactly is a competition part ? Is it considered competition if it is bought off the shelf as an aftermarket go fast bit, like a high comp piston. What about home made parts, like a short stroke crank. Or some larger diameter valves for your loncin head, that have been turned down from bigger car head valves..

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but "competition" is a bit ambiguous..

[gav]

.

Oh my God....suddenly we are feeling very behind the times with our air cooled engines...........good looking effort, like Jasonu's, much impressed.

Well, the engine might be water cooled, but it appears the riders don't want to be. They turned up at the track today, saw it was raining and went home again. By race time the sun was out and almost perfect conditions!

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=speedpro;1129782580]tnat's the only engine combination that is as good or better than an MB100 with 6 speed.

Hey Mike, how many races and championships has ANY MB 6spd won? My guess is none.

[jasonu]

Just leaked Joe2
aiming for 28rwhp

It will never fly...

[F5 Dave]

This competition parts rule.. What exactly is a competition part ? Is it considered competition if it is bought off the shelf as an aftermarket go fast bit, like a high comp piston. What about home made parts, like a short stroke crank. Or some larger diameter valves for your loncin head, that have been turned down from bigger car head valves..

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but "competition" is a bit ambiguous..
Well pistons & Cams are free now. Anything production can be modified. The No competition parts rule was aimed at stopping people running MX parts & at the time you used to be able to buy hop up cylinders for all sorts of bike that they used to race in funny asian countries. 'Course the Airforce boys would bring this stuff back if they or a mate were stationed there.

[Buddha#81]

[QUOTE=speedpro;1129782580]tnat's the only engine combination that is as good or better than an MB100 with 6 speed.

Hey Mike, how many races and championships has ANY MB 6spd won? My guess is none.

............just about everything there is to win here in the south island, in the last year or two the level of competition has improved and its a top 5 finisher now. But it is capible of beating most 150cc street stockers. It went to Taupo for the last GP but a crash finished any hope of winning and had to settle for a second.

[Buddha#81]

Just leaked Joe2
aiming for 28rwhp

Dont let this fool you Norf Islanders......Its a mock up and has empty cases!

[TZ350]

Dont let this fool you Norf Islanders......Its a mock up and has empty cases!

Frightend the bejesus out of us............

[Buddha#81]

Frightend the bejesus out of us............

False sence of security? hehehehe

[Bren_chch]

Frightend the bejesus out of us............ lol funny!

[jasonu]

I was wondering how the h20 was going to circulate with inly one pipe coming from the water pume.
Nice one anyhow.
Don't spose you want to sell it???

[F5 Dave]

I was wondering how the h20 was going to circulate with inly one pipe coming from the water pume.
. . .


Didn't Picklet invent that technology on the DS80? :innocent:

Besides, I see two pipes.

[gatch]

Well pistons & Cams are free now. Anything production can be modified. The No competition parts rule was aimed at stopping people running MX parts & at the time you used to be able to buy hop up cylinders for all sorts of bike that they used to race in funny asian countries. 'Course the Airforce boys would bring this stuff back if they or a mate were stationed there.

Hey thanks for that. Is there possibly a link to further enlighten me ? I'm on a budget and don't want to spend any money on stuff that is dubious in its legality..

[F5 Dave]

MNZ site

or look here
http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/rules.php?pg=rules

[TZ350]

Links page 160, links gathered from the last 10 pages, more link collections on pages 150 140 130……… etc to page 80

Handy Port Timing Calculator. For Calculating Port Timing from Port Height and Vice Versa
http://www.lostsoulssc.com/porttiming.htm

Interesting new 2-Stroke engine from Lotus:-
http://www.grouplotus.com/manageshowcase/uploadpassthru/8628.swf

Fundamentals:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter1.doc
Pipes:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter2.doc
Chambers:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter3.doc

PDF of NGK racing plugs here:-
http://www.elit.cz/Files/ObrazkyPModdeleni/Elektro/NGK/brochure_racingplugs_ENG.pdf

Signal shaping for a Dyno RPM pickup. SportsDevices show how this can be done with a 555 timer:-
http://www.sportdevices.com/rpm_readings/index.htm

Posted by Bert. http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/parallel_output.html#input
Provides some insight (and code snips), but some quality time spent googling will un-earth what you require to fully build up the required code.
or look for a USB interface option http://www.usbee.com/freqc.html

Two-stroke ignition systems http://www.strappe.com/ignition.html
How you can read spark plugs and select them - by Gordon Jennings http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html
Suspension tuning http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html sag spring rate, fork oil, oil weight, oil level and emulators.

Save the stuffing around and go buy one of these digital, programmable ignitions http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm originally posted by K14

Setup info here:- http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech_race.htm and http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech.htm

The actual software can be downloaded from here for free http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm we have the dccdip2_en version.

Old Hondas never die. Total weight 74 Kg. See here http://www.marshland.co.nz/CB150Frame.html

The main things that make more power, are, and in order of priority (1) the primary transfer tangential angle, (2) the inner transfer port radius, (3) the main transfer port axial inclination, (4) and main transfer port open size and shape. All high lighted in pic 2. Get a copy of the paper from here:- http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/pdfjes/porting.pdf

From Bert. and why not http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3938730721422144363# the concerning thing is that they are going faster than my bucket ever will.
What about these puppies for sh!ts and giggles if your feeling rich ( i think someone posted them before):
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html

[speedpro]

Hey Mike, how many races and championships has ANY MB 6spd won? My guess is none.

Dave Diprose had the Auckland champs pretty well sewn up with one for years. He won plenty of races. As always it's not always just the bike but the rider as well, hence my one never doing too well. There was a pretty fast one fitted in a RS125 chassis down south that from all accounts was fast as well though I'm not sure of actual results - Darryl Cotton's one.

[F5 Dave]

DCs is an aircooled 125 with 24mm carb. believe it is someway short of 125. When DD bored a cylinder it went through to ally in some sections so full 125 wouldn't be possible without stroking it.

Funny though you say 6 speed MB100 though J, a 4 speed MB won the F4 GP a way back in ~ 1990 at Ohakea. It was protested but legal. I used much of the same engine in my H100 for a BOB attempt (but with 6 speed) & lead for most of the race until the big end called time 5 min from the end. This was just prior to FXR era, they would have nailed me, the poor H was winding itself up in knots & I couldn't take the kink in the back straight flat out & the hard old 18" slick was sliding into the hairpin every lap (been resurfaced since).

I also remember Mike on his RG framed MB giving Jimmy the hurry up at Taupo. It was visibly faster than the Kawasaki.

[TZ350]

.

My Notes have Darryl Cotton and Neil Batchelor both with H100's?? 2nd and 3rd in the GP at the last TRRS and 1st and 2nd race 6 and 1st and 3rd race 14.

Dave D has posted a more complete and no doubt more accurate set of results from the TRRS some where earlier.

OK ok,..... and yes, it was an FXR (Andrew A) that won the GP...............and yes, the Suzuki GP's of Team ESE had to eat humble pie............


Yep Andrew Adlam won the 5 lap F4 GP & Darryl Cotton won both all-in bucket races later in the day. Full results should be posted on http://www.marktime.co.nz/results/091228-SRA.HTML
But it was certainly a day of "what might have been". Nigel Duff won the 1st 4 lap heat of the F4 GP before the red flag, & then seized on the 1st lap of the 2nd heat (the one that mattered). And I have to say that my son Nathanael qualified on pole 2.7 sec faster than any other rider, but then unfortunately broke the ring & gouged the bore on the 1st lap of the GP. He carried on for a few laps with no compression & no power, dropping back through the field. Then he had to go out on the 50 for the 2 races later in the day, managing to lap faster than most of the F4 bikes. I hope he has better luck next year. It would have been nice to see the 1st ever double bucket GP winner (dreams are free)...

[F5 Dave]

Oh yeah forgot about Diesel's 100. Both are MBs,

[Buddha#81]

Oh yeah forgot about Diesel's 100. Both are MBs,

Diesels MB possibly produces more power but has to carry twice the weight.....and is less reliable. The CBR's down here are the yard stick but there is some interesting projects underway to stop their domination. Both the CBR's down here are Aussie spec race bikes that are now modified (cams etc) and are ridden well by skinny arsed young punks. Last BOB Hoogie matched Avalons pace on a CBR (commuter frame) where as Avalon was on a RS125 frame. Watch this space!

[F5 Dave]

Joe chews up & spits out CBRs, FXRs & whathaveyou. . . . Just only in a straight line.

[Buddha#81]

Joe chews up & spits out CBRs, FXRs & whathaveyou. . . . Just only in a straight line.

Joes gone to hiding.....havn't seen Joe for a long time.........Joes running scared of CBR's!

[Bren_chch]

He aint scared of NOTHING! he will be back with his younger more athletic brother!

[F5 Dave]

. . . .and hopefully better looking.

[speedpro]

That pretty well answers the MB100 performance question. The GP at Taupo where me and Jim came 1st and 2nd I don't think there was too much in it as far as speed went, mine may have been a little faster I really don't know. What I do know is that Jim's Kawasaki handled heaps better than the MB/RG. This was confirmed at a 2hr race some other year when I co-rode his Kawasaki. It proved the suspicion I had that Jim was just messing with me to make it look good for the spectators. Pretty sure we lapped 3rd place. Bit like me and Ziffle at the last Wigram GP, though I managed to be in front of Ziffle at the end of that race.

[Bren_chch]

. . . .and hopefully better looking.

very handsome he is!

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=speedpro;1129784126]That pretty well answers the MB100 performance question.

Sorry I spoke.

[TZ350]

Making progress with the 50. As the stroke is 3mm shorter the cylinder had to be trimmed top and bottom to get the port timing where I wanted it.

The exhaust stub holes were stripped out and in the wrong place so I tapped them M8 and glued some threaded alloy plugs in with Devcon F.

When it came time to re-tap the holes M6 I found that the old welded repairs had moved the centres way off so the plugs did a great job of allowing me to get the new bolt holes in the right place.

I am very pleased with the finished job………:)

[Kickaha]

very handsome he is!

Unlike the rider who has a face for radio

[aircooled]

dyno like this?

[bucketracer]

.

Thats very impressive, how do you pickup the engine rev's?

[F5 Dave]

Making progress with the 50. As the stroke is 3mm shorter the cylinder had to be trimmed top and bottom to get the port timing where I wanted it.

The exhaust stub holes were stripped out and in the wrong place so I tapped them M8 and glued some threaded alloy plugs in with Devcon F.

When it came time to re-tap the holes M6 I found that the old welded repairs had moved the centres way off so the plugs did a great job of allowing me to get the new bolt holes in the right place.

I am very pleased with the finished job………:)
Yeah they do that. I don't run studs, I thread in M8 allen head bolts that are drilled so can be lockwired.

[TZ350]

.

This is on my list of things to check out when I get the FZR/GP125 going...........

MiniMS is a Do It Yourself Electronic Fuel Injection Controller based on the Megasquirt Ver. 2.2 http://www.mini-ms.com/

[TZ350]

.

As I am currently setting up a new head for the 50 is probably time to revisit MSV, mean squish velocity.

MSV Mean Squish Velocity Calculator:- http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/teamsparrow/cylinderheadsv2_3.xls

[Skunk]

Both the CBR's down here are Aussie spec race bikes that are now modified (cams etc)Huh? Race spec?

[F5 Dave]

he means for their kids on bike series like Av & a few of the Chch kids did over in Auss. Seemingly now with more work done on them

[TZ350]

.

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Someone elses attempt at Hydro-forming an expansion chamber..................

Like our own, and only attempt, the curvature of the pipe tightened up and we also got wrinkles just like in the video.

I think that Hydro-forming the header might be fairly easy with practice and worth the effort to get a nice smooth shape.

[aircooled]

.

Thats very impressive, how do you pickup the engine rev's?

DataMite inductive pickup, part of the Dyno software package i got from Performance Trends.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah your welding has to be better than really good, I've seen a few attempts.

[Buddha#81]

he means for their kids on bike series like Av & a few of the Chch kids did over in Auss. Seemingly now with more work done on them

Al Hoogie and Nick Cain brought their Aussie spec (Avalon did the same series) CBR's back a couple of years ago and now have chased more HP out of a already fast package!

[Buckets4Me]

Al Hoogie and Nick Cain brought their Aussie spec (Avalon did the same series) CBR's back a couple of years ago and now have chased more HP out of a already fast package!

so you are trying to tell us that these Factory race preped bikes that have now had more work done to them are somehow infieror to our rs framed comuter engined bikes ?
and that Avalon managed to givethem a run for there money with a broken engine mount and the wrong gearing (makes you wonder what would have happened with a better bike)

[F5 Dave]

Bah, they're not factory race preped, they were just a bunch of CBRs stripped down for a one make race series. They didn't even have proper rearsets, yuo had to make them up. So they've tuned them, just as the FXR lads have.

Bit of a bummer as far as I'm concerned, with a lucky start I could hang with the CBRs in a sprint race on my 50. No chance if they are faster & I'm probably slower at the moment. No chance of finishing my 100 for the BOB.

[Buddha#81]

Bah, they're not factory race preped, they were just a bunch of CBRs stripped down for a one make race series. They didn't even have proper rearsets, yuo had to make them up. So they've tuned them, just as the FXR lads have.

Bit of a bummer as far as I'm concerned, with a lucky start I could hang with the CBRs in a sprint race on my 50. No chance if they are faster & I'm probably slower at the moment. No chance of finishing my 100 for the BOB.

they are front running street stock bikes on Ruapuna full circuit, so not too shabby. Ridden very well by the current 125 champ and the other (nick) has 125 experiance. Yes Avalon rode well but I wonder if Al hoogie was doing enough to keep pace with her and capitalised when her engine mount broke? There are a couple of projects underway that should keep them honest.

[jasonu]

.

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Someone elses attempt at Hydro-forming an expansion chamber..................

Like our own, and only attempt, the curvature of the pipe tightened up and we also got wrinkles just like in the video.

I think that Hydro-forming the header might be fairly easy with practice and worth the effort to get a nice smooth shape.

I think think radiusing the edges to the expected radius of the finished pipe where the top and bottom sections meet and are welded might improve the way it blows up rather than starting with that flat set up in the vid.

[TZ350]

Chambers test rides his new FXR/GP100.........................250 hours of work, every thing taken apart checked or modified and then reassembled.

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[Kickaha]

and that Avalon managed to givethem a run for there money with a broken engine mount and the wrong gearing (makes you wonder what would have happened with a better bike)

:yawn: she still would have lost, anymore excuses you'd like to make for here?

[Yow Ling]

Bah, they're not factory race preped, they were just a bunch of CBRs stripped down for a one make race series. They didn't even have proper rearsets, yuo had to make them up. So they've tuned them, just as the FXR lads have.

Bit of a bummer as far as I'm concerned, with a lucky start I could hang with the CBRs in a sprint race on my 50. No chance if they are faster & I'm probably slower at the moment. No chance of finishing my 100 for the BOB.

Dont worry about getting your 100 ready for BOB, I got a whole cage full of them , you are welcome to one !

[Kickaha]

Dont worry about getting your 100 ready for BOB, I got a whole cage full of them , you are welcome to one !

Make him ride a four stroke

[speedpro]

What's up with the suspension in the first video of the FZR? It looks to be near to bottomed out.

[TZ350]

What's up with the suspension in the first video of the FZR? It looks to be near to bottomed out.

Interesting, hadn't noticed that, we have to brake pretty hard this end of the drive and its a little down hill too.

We measured it and with the forks poking through the top of the triple clamps it bottoms out when the dust seals just touch the underside of the lower clamp.

The suspension does rise up again as he enters the workshop.

Original springs to soft???? not enough oil, sure does not look right, thanks for pointing it out.

[SS90]

Interesting, hadn't noticed that, we have to brake pretty hard this end of the drive and its a little down hill too.

We measured it and with the forks poking through the top of the triple clamps it bottoms out when the dust seals just touch the underside of the lower clamp.

The suspension does rise up again as he enters the workshop.

Original springs to soft???? not enough oil, sure does not look right, thanks for pointing it out.

I notice that on the 16th of June, (two days before this post...... you seemed unaware that you had a front end spring problem.....) you advertised in the "bucket parts wanted" thread that you where looking for some FZR twofiddy forks because "you needed some uncut fork springs"...... you have posted some "FACTS" on suspension in this thread, am I to assume that you have fucked up with your calculations, and shortened the springs too much, thereby needing replacement springs?....if that is correct, should we disregard all your posts on fork geometry?

[Yow Ling]

I notice that on the 16th of June, (two days before this post...... you seemed unaware that you had a front end spring problem.....) you advertised in the "bucket parts wanted" thread that you where looking for some FZR twofiddy forks because "you needed some uncut fork springs"...... you have posted some "FACTS" on suspension in this thread, am I to assume that you have fucked up with your calculations, and shortened the springs too much, thereby needing replacement springs?....if that is correct, should we disregard all your posts on fork geometry?

Thanks Mr Helpfull

[SS90]

Thanks Mr Helpfull

Your welcome.

It's just in the interests of accuracy.

Some people follow this thread in the hope of building a fast bucket, and if some information is wrong, it is prudent to mention it.

There is no malice in my posts.

[F5 Dave]

Dont worry about getting your 100 ready for BOB, I got a whole cage full of them , you are welcome to one !
Hey if you have something that has good tyres & doesn't handle evily I'd love to take up the offer.

[Bren_chch]

Hey if you have something that has good tyres & doesn't handle evily I'd love to take up the offer.

you'd get on well with the yellow peril. :) bike #08, awesome handling, tyres and power.

[bucketracer]

.

A quick snap of Chambers punting his new FZR-GP125

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[Arronduke]

Got to say that this bike had some real go down the back stright... very impressive.

Looks dam nice too.

[Muzzab]

Dont worry about getting your 100 ready for BOB, I got a whole cage full of them , you are welcome to one !

Has the green one earnt a name yet? Greenie Meanie? Spearmint Twist?

[Yow Ling]

Puss bucket

[TZ350]

.

Chambers first trial run on his new FZR-GP100, starting off the back of the B grid..........

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Jaden Hassan giving Chambers FZR-GP100 a try out..........

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[bucketracer]

.

So that's Chambers FZR-GP100 on the track, now to get TeeZee's FZR and 50 finished and out on the track too.

A bit of suspension work to get things dialed in then we can get back to engine development................:D

[grantman]

I Agree with Arronduke
Real quick on the stright
When he gets the hang of things it should be evil!

[TZ350]

.

A big thumbs up...:2thumbsup.....Speedpro for your sensible suggestions and the parts (hopefully) needed to restore our second FZR's front forks to std spec.

Last Sunday Chambers had a great day on his new FZR-GP100, it ran well but he dropped it after running wide and getting mud on the tires, it crashed well with no damage, like a good bucket should, Chambers was able to pick it up and finish. Latter Jaden took it out for a spin and was most helpful with advice on suspension setup. Chambers wound up the day by punting his 50 around in grand style. Those 50's are so much fun.

Thanks Ray and Damion for the great photos .......

I think Speedpro is right, these FZR chassis are pretty good and I am real keen to get my own FZR-GP125 and RG50 finished for the start of the new season.

[craisin]

I dont know but it look like the frame is twisted on that bike he dropped

[Buckets4Me]

I dont know but it look like the frame is twisted on that bike he dropped

somethings twisted thats for sure

[TZ350]

.
Now we have some more springs to play with......

Pic-01 the setup for measuring the spring rate. With a rod inside the spring and the spring held in a tube it is relatively safe.
Pic-02 Chambers takes the initial reading.
Pic-03 And measures the amount the spring has been compressed in mm and the force required in Kg.

We start by pre-loading the spring 10Kg and measuring the length of the press's ram.

Then we load up the spring another 30-40Kg and measure the change in length of the ram in mm.

Kg/mm gives you how many Kg it takes to compress the spring one mm, or spring rate in Kg/mm.

Some of springs we measured and the results we obtained.

Honda RS125 20% Dual Rate spring, 0.62Kg/mm and 0.71Kg/mm
Std FZR250 20% Dual Rate spring, 0.41Kg/mm and 0.71Kg/mm
Std FZR250 single rate spring, 0.61Kg/mm
And the cut down FZR springs that came in one of the bikes, 0.75Kg/mm

With practice we could improve the accuracy of our results but these are sufficient for us to see what ball park we are in.

For comparison, rates found on the net. FZR250 0.70Kg/mm, FZR400 K1 0.5Kg/mm and K2 0.7Kg/mm, FZR1000 0.77Kg/mm.

[TZ350]

About the graphs in pictures 1-2-3

Although the dual rate spring has two distinct spring rates they combine to make a much softer rate and mimics a progressive spring at the start when both springs are compressed together. Its not like the soft one completely collapses and becomes coil bound before the stiffer part starts to compress. The softer spring compresses a lot and the stiffer spring compresses a lesser amount until the softer spring becomes coil bound and the stiffer spring then takes over completely.

Something I copied from the net that explains it better.........

The three spring types are linear (ordinary); dual rate (often called "progressive") and progressive (really!). The ordinary one has a rate of 9N/mm, so to get compressed 120mm it needs 120 x 9N of force, or 1080N. Note that the graph is a straight line, which is why it’s called linear.

Dual rate springs are made by putting a short spring with closely wound coils on top of a longer spring. Initially, when you apply a force it acts on both springs and they both compress. So the total compression is more, for the same force, than either spring alone. That means it has a softer rate. If you don't like formulae, just ignore the next sentence. If you don't mind, the combined rate is K=K1 * K2 / (K1 + K2), where K1 and K2 are the rates of the individual springs.

However, after some compression, the closely wound spring jams solid as all the coils come together (it "coil binds"). So now you only have a single spring, which we’ve already said is stiffer than the combined springs. In the example above, the combined springs have a rate of 7N/mm, while the second spring has a rate of 9N/mm. The first spring coil binds at 40mm: you can see a kink in the graph at that point. Note that the two springs can be made from the same piece of wire: all that matters is that their coils have different spacing.

More can be read here:- http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_advanced.htm

Where K1 and K2 are the rates of the individual springs.

Spring rate for dual rate springs is K=K1 * K2 / (K1 + K2)

Honda RS125 20% Dual Rate spring, 0.62Kg/mm and 0.71Kg/mm

0.62 x 0.71 / (0.62 + 0.71)
0.44 / 1.33
0.33

The effective initial spring rate for this Honda RS125 is 0.33Kg/mm then when the softer spring becomes coil bound the rate changes to 0.71 Kg/mm

And

Std FZR250 20% Dual Rate spring, 0.41Kg/mm and 0.71Kg/mm

0.41 x 0.71 / (0.41 + 0.71)
0.29 / 1.12
0.26

The effective initial spring rate for our FZR’s is 0.26 Kg/mm, then when the softer spring becomes coil bound the rate changes to 0.71 Kg/mm

As a comparison…..

Std FZR250 single rate spring, 0.61Kg/mm

And the cut down FZR springs that came in one of the bikes, 0.75Kg/mm

A possibility would be to use a combination of the cut down spring with the std FZR single rate spring for a combined dual rate similar to the Honda RS125.

Single rate, dual rate or progressive, the jury at Team ESE is still out about what we want to use with our FZR Bucket racers.

[Yow Ling]

Man you really have the knack of taking something we thought was simple and complexicating it, is this what Scientology is all about?

[bucketracer]

Man you really have the knack of taking something we thought was simple and complexicating it, is this what Scientology is all about?

TeeZee should have "Progressivly" found a "Linear" answer to the "Dual Rate" problem of making a sows ear from a silk purse.......:laugh:

[F5 Dave]

A short conversation with RT & he always espouses linear springs. It makes sense, you will tend to blow through the soft part using heaps of travel (some of course is used in preload so those graphs should start further on than zero in real life). Then to get the same bottoming resistance you need a steeper curve near the end. Excess travel isn't useful on a race bike as it's unsettling.

[TZ350]

.

Yea........in spite of the RS125 being dual rate and wanting to restore the FZR forks to their original setup, our thinking has started going in the linear direction mostly for all the reasons you have pointed out. Looks like the guy (ShellRacing) who cut the original springs, was onto it............

[speedpro]

and then there is the damping side to play with. The springs I have are linear, single rate. You guys need to give mine a try. I don't think it's too bad but maybe it could be better.

[TZ350]

The springs I have are linear, single rate. You guys need to give mine a try.

Until recently I had thought that all the FZR250 springs were dual rate and that was the std setup and believed that you were using them like that.

So that was the single rate spring version in #6 when you showed me it the other day. I am greatly encouraged as it looked good, and there is a set of original single rate springs in one of those old forks you lent me to cannibalize for parts as well as the cut down set that came with the bike.


and then there is the damping side to play with.

We have carefully overhauled the fork internals, paying special attention to the rebound foot valve and piston damper rod sealing rings and the centralization of the damper piston in the fork tube. No modifications, just restored to good functional condition. Lots to play with here later like rebound holes, oil viscocity and emulators.

So much, is just fashion with motorcycles that we wanted to take a more critical look at the suspension, after some investigation and as best as we can tell, simple linear springs look the most suitable for our FZR bucket racers.

[mud in ur eyes]

Looks like TZ350 is to polite to mention it but………..

you have posted some "FACTS" on suspension in this thread…..you have fucked up with your calculations, and shortened the springs too much....…should we disregard all your posts on fork geometry?

Well yes, I guess you can..........because………
Motorcycle fork geometry is the collection of the key measurements, lengths and angles that define a particular configuration, primary among these are steering head axis angle, fork offset, and trail.

TZ's posts have been about suspension spring rates and damping not about fork geometry.
If you’re going to debate his work you at first need to understand the subject.
Also one of the FZR's came with cut down springs,
So keeping to the facts without inventing stories is useful too or should we just disregard all of your tuning posts as meaningless hot air.

There is no malice intended.
It's just in the interests of accuracy.
Some people follow this thread in the hope of building a fast bucket, and if some information is deliberatly wrong, it is prudent to mention it.

[gatch]

I think perhaps you may be missing the whole point of the thread ?

Rather than being a "look at me and how smart I am" collection of worthless shit, I think it is intended to be more of a "here is some useful things I have found, that have made my bike go better".

Take advice with grain of salt where preferred..

[Buckets4Me]

I think perhaps you may be missing the whole point of the thread ?

Rather than being a "look at me and how smart I am" collection of worthless shit, I think it is intended to be more of a "here is some useful things I have found, that have made my bike go better".


I think he is sour that we havent posted anything about hotting a vespa up
apart from what not to do

211819211820211821

cutting cranks up and heat treating your bike is not the way to go

[TZ350]

So SS90 keeping to the facts without inventing stories is useful too or should we just disregard all of your tuning posts as meaningless hot air.

Keeping to the facts is probably not a bad idea, we hadn't over cut the springs, but SS if we had fucked up, so what, why try and make us look bad…...whats your problem...


I think perhaps you may be missing the whole point of the thread ?…….I think it is intended to be more of a "here is some useful things I have found…….

Thanks Gatch..…..that’s it exactly, it’s a hobby, and we enjoy it……..might even be getting good at it..........


Take advice with grain of salt where preferred..

Yep, it's how we see it……..we post everything we can, links, formula, pictures and hand drawings so that anyone can judge for themselves whether to “take it, or leave it” ………

[Yow Ling]

Meanwhile, back at the track yesterday, (big track) I accidentally trashed 2 engines. I think they both bottom ends , i sure about one cos I looked !
30:1 motul 800 . Must be a bit lean, I expected if it was a bit lean maybe I would seize a piston, wasnt really ready for a bottom end. Some opinions would be good. Engine is KC100 . Was going pretty good until then. One was halfway down the straight full noise, the other was exiting the dipper at ruapuna

[TZ350]

.

Thomas and Bucketracer have setup something using an old vacuum cleaner motor and a bucket and we hope to be able use a manometer to check on the symmetry of the transfer streams.

Will let you know if the idea proves usefull.......

[TZ350]

Meanwhile, back at the track yesterday, (big track) I accidentally trashed 2 engines. I think they both bottom ends , i sure about one cos I looked !
30:1 motul 800 . Must be a bit lean, I expected if it was a bit lean maybe I would seize a piston, wasnt really ready for a bottom end. Some opinions would be good. Engine is KC100 . Was going pretty good until then. One was halfway down the straight full noise, the other was exiting the dipper at ruapuna

We use a cheeper oil, Shell Advance Ultra at 20:1 in the Buckets, because with so many people involved it is more reliable to say "tip the 1l bottle into that 20l drum" than have them work out oil/fuel ratios.......also we have brought into the, more oil for more power idea...........

Ran Motul 30:1 in my TZ ok..........Should have been ok in your KC........sorry to hear about the B/E failures.....

[TZ350]

Certainly can measure pressure differences around the cylinder and in spite of its 20rwhp this one looks like it has the dreaded tongue pattern so it could be better.

The next step is to make a Perspex head with pressure taps so I can make repeatable measurement.

[F5 Dave]

Meanwhile, back at the track yesterday, (big track) I accidentally trashed 2 engines. I think they both bottom ends , i sure about one cos I looked !
30:1 motul 800 . Must be a bit lean, I expected if it was a bit lean maybe I would seize a piston, wasnt really ready for a bottom end. Some opinions would be good. Engine is KC100 . Was going pretty good until then. One was halfway down the straight full noise, the other was exiting the dipper at ruapuna
These days I always rebuild a bottom end before using it. If done properly it should give years of reliable service. I use Motul at 30:1 in the 50 & it revs to the moon. I used to kill a few bottom ends when I was racing the MB50. I'd buy another engine for a hundy or less & carry on. Then it would die again several races later. Engines that have been sitting around corrode & the plating gets knackered. From there is is only time to when the bearing slides instead of turns. As soon as there is a slight flat it is curtains within seconds. Once I rebuilt with new my problems (for that reason) stopped.

Further issues could include waay too high compression or detonation which hammers everything downstream of the sparkplug. You'd likely see evidence of this on the piston.

[TZ350]

........... when the bearing slides instead of turns. As soon as there is a slight flat it is curtains within seconds..........

The Z's and TR's if they holed a piston the alloy dust would jam the B/E and skid the rollers. Didn't matter how well you cleaned the B/E out it would fail not long after, only fix was to replace the B/E brg after holing a piston.

Same problem with the bike sitting around over winter after using (hygroscopic) Castrol R in it, the rollers and B/E pin would develop corrosion spots and it was curtains for the B/E pretty quickly.......mains too.....

[Yow Ling]

that may be part of the problem, both bikes have been stored and unused for several years. I wish that it was the owner of the second bike riding it at the time!. No mind, Ive been rebuilding a few cranks lately, so a couple more will be good practice

[aircooled]

fork geometry would surely have to change after the forks are compressed, ie rake & trail ?

[Henk]

Rake and trail both decrease every time you compress the forks, this is why bikes tend to turn much faster when you are hard on the picks in an outbraving manuvoure and also why front ends have a tendency to wash as you give it too much welly on the bars turning during said stupidly late braking exercises.

[SS90]

I think he is sour that we havent posted anything about hotting a vespa up
apart from what not to do

211819211820211821

cutting cranks up and heat treating your bike is not the way to go

Wow, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about..... all my high end Vespa tuning cranks are cut like that now, (as well as any other tuner worth his salt in this game) and, they vibrate less than their "full circle" origins.

Actually, you can now buy that style of crank from wholesalers....

Since it is clear you have absolutely no industry experience or training whatsoever, you are commenting WAY outside your paygrade.

Perhaps if you actually did some tuning work, you would understand.

I will put it really simply.... to get a power curve with a wide rpm power band, you need to have an exhaust baffle angle like the one in the picture I have previously shown (which, actually was the same engine as the crank you keep referring to is fitted....but I have made 9 others since, to the same specifications, only I use a jig now), to get the full benefit of such an exhaust, you need to have a high crankcase volume (low ratio) around a ratio of 1.40, or perhaps less in some cases.

Every engine does not get that style of crank, but all the high power engines do.

Clearly they need to have a reed valve fitted to even funtion, so it is a matter of budget for the customer.

Removing material from the crank is the only realistic way to do this, and in such a fashion so that I get a balance factor of somewhere around 50 to 56% (depending on the piston used) suits the fact that the engines spin to 10,000 rpm.

If I ran the "full circle" crank (this is not an original part, it is an accessory "old school" design, which also gives a primary compression ratio way to high), then the balance factor is around 25%....... not really suitable for an engine spinning to 10,000 rpm (sometimes more....some engines like Falc's spin to 12,000 rpm)


Actually, if you run these "full circle, high primary compression" cranks, the vibrations a so severe, they brake handlebars over time, even when only revved to 6,000 rpm.

Clearly 25% is unsuitable for any thing "high revving".

Factors I use when deciding which crankshaft to use (oh, by the way, they all look similar to the pictures I posted), comes down to what piston the customer wants, what ignition, and, most importantly, which exhaust.

If a customer wanted to use a certain type of exhaust (for what ever reason), then I would use my experience to decide what primary compression ratio (among other factors) would suit his exhaust, as well as what cylinder head design.

As previously mentioned, if budgets allowed, I could perfect the balance factor for each situation, using titanium slugs opposite the pin, but it is not really needed as the vibrations are less that original. (at "race pace")

I did drill out the centre of a crank pin a year ago.... essentially the same effect as adding Titanium to the opposite end ....and free, but it was so soft to drill that I suspected it would shorten the service life of the crank to a level that was unnacceptable for every day customers... it would likely be ok if you out a new rod kit in every 100 hours..... but like I say, the engines vibrate much much less than the original 25% balance factor you get if you just assemble on eout of the box (and, again gives you much to high primary compression to boot) I also feel that removing any more material from around the big end would be courting disaster as well.

Oh, and Bucketsforme, your continual game of pretending not to understand this concept does not frustrate me in the slightest, it just goes to show your level of intellect.

There are plenty of manufacturers that use this design of crank.

You know, I would go so far as to say that if you where building an air cooled 125cc two stroke, and you didn't use values similar to those achieved when you use a crank like this (in regards to balance factor and primary compression ratio's), then you would do well to find another hobby/career.



Your constant belittling of the fact that I deal with Vespa engines is a clear indicator of your lack of understanding of the size of the world and just how big the industry is in Europe and America.

If you think you can build air cooled 125cc engines making more than 25 horsepower and only having 4 gears, then come over here and prove your worth.

[speedpro]

. . . you need to have a high crankcase volume (low ratio) around a ratio of 1.40, or perhaps less in some cases.

Every engine does not get that style of crank, but all the high power engines do.

Removing material from the crank is the only realistic way to do this, and in such a fashion so that I get a balance factor of somewhere around 50 to 56% (depending on the piston used) suits the fact that the engines spin to 10,000 rpm.

Interesting comment about crankcase volume.

Looking at the flywheel, and considering that you mention a 50-56% factor I think you must have reasonably heavy reciprocating mass. Are the pistons you use heavy compared to say a KT100?

My current crank has a balance factor in the same region and I haven't removed anything like that amount of material. The pin I'm using, which has an offset centre section, has a hole in the middle about the same size as a standard pin's hole. I suspect you could go quite big without compromising strength provided the material was decent. I've also drilled 2 holes in each web in the vicinity of the crankpin plus because the rod big end is wider there is 1mm off each web face surrounding the pin.

[speedpro]

I also wonder if we are specifying balance factors in opposite ways.
Looking at that crank it seems to me that the factor has been increased. If it got to 100% the engine would only ever be balanced at standstill. With less and less % it becomes balanced at higher and higher rpm. 25% would be for incredibly high rpm, engine wise, considering as you say that 50% is for around 11-12,000rpm. 75% however would be for a lower revving engine which would vibrate badly when revved like my old TS100 before I rebalanced the crank.
Again, looking at that crank I think it has a lot of mass opposing the piston and therefore a high balance factor, unless there's things done that I can't see, like the titanium slug you mentioned. Or maybe a slug of mallory metal in the bigend pin??

[TZ350]

Suspension


fork geometry would surely have to change after the forks are compressed, ie rake & trail ?


Rake and trail both decrease every time you compress the forks, this is why bikes tend to turn much faster when you are hard on the picks

Yes you are right, there is an overlap between fork geometry and spring rate and damping.

Basically fork geometry is about steering, not suspension.

Suspension, spring rates and damping is something different, suspension is about keeping wheels in contact with the road.

Fork geometry and suspension, are different things, but one does compromises the other, its the usual engineering trade off.

I agree with Thomas, the better technical posts are backed with facts and references and competent opinion pieces are illustrated with pictures and drawings.

[TZ350]

I could perfect the balance factor for each situation, using titanium slugs opposite the pin…………I did drill out the center of a crank pin a year ago.... essentially the same effect as adding Titanium to the opposite end ...........

Your statement is not actually true.................

I am gob smacked….Wow, you clearly still have no idea of what you are talking about.……....

Thanks to Thomas this subject has been well covered, by Team ESE posts in the ESE and 2-Stroke tuners thread, they included facts and figures, formulas and pictures demonstrating the method and technique of measuring and changing the balance factor of a single cylinder crankshaft

In the interests of robust debate and to quote yourself:-

There is no malice intended.
It's just in the interests of accuracy.
Some people follow this thread in the hope of building a fast bucket, and if some information is wrong, it is prudent to mention it.

[Yow Ling]

Your statement is not actually true.................

I am gob smacked….Wow, you clearly still have no idea of what you are talking about.……....

Thanks to Thomas this subject has been well covered, by Team ESE posts in the ESE and 2-Stroke tuners thread, they included facts and figures, formulas and pictures demonstrating the method and technique of measuring and changing the balance factor of a single cylinder crankshaft

In the interests of robust debate and to quote yourself:-

There is no malice intended.
It's just in the interests of accuracy.
Some people follow this thread in the hope of building a fast bucket, and if some information is wrong, it is prudent to mention it.

Haha shows what u know TZ350, everyone knows that in the German hemisphere that when you need to add weight to a crankshaft weight you remove steel and replace it with much lighter Ti, the real skill however (this is what paybands are set on) is making everyone belive you are right and everyone else is wrong.

SS90 nobody round here gives a flying fuck about your old vespas, the laws still allow us to modify and pollute as we please. So did you copy the wholesalers cranks , or they yours?

[aircooled]

i have a aircooled 125 which has 27.5 rwh, has full circle cranks. but no 4speed box.
i also thought ti was lightweight metal?

[SS90]

Haha shows what u know TZ350, everyone knows that in the German hemisphere that when you need to add weight to a crankshaft weight you remove steel and replace it with much lighter Ti, the real skill however (this is what paybands are set on) is making everyone belive you are right and everyone else is wrong.

SS90 nobody round here gives a flying fuck about your old vespas, the laws still allow us to modify and pollute as we please. So did you copy the wholesalers cranks , or they yours?

Ok, so I meant to type Tungsten, not Titanium, I have already covered Mallory Metal (A Titanium alloy) with a density of 2:1 to steel.

Was I the first to make cranks of this design? Of course not, no more than anyone who designs a new expansion chamber can claim they invented the concept.

[SS90]

i have a aircooled 125 which has 27.5 rwh, has full circle cranks. but no 4speed box.
i also thought ti was lightweight metal?

Yes, I meant Tungsten, not Titanium.

[Yow Ling]

Ok, so I meant to type Tungsten, not Titanium, I have already covered Mallory Metal (A Titanium alloy) .

Still confusing, Mallory metal is an alloy of tungsten not Titanium

[SS90]

Still confusing, Mallory metal is an alloy of tungsten not Titanium

Wow, yes, you got me again.

Tungsten alloy.

[TZ350]

i have a aircooled 125 which has 27.5 rwh, has full circle cranks. but no 4speed box.
i also thought ti was lightweight metal?

I am interested in how you have found your dyno. Have you been able to use it very much?

We have got a drum and bearings from a scrap pile for ours now, just need to clean it up.

The drum is a bit rusty but we will skim and knurl it, so long as it runs true it should be good.

I think it has a rotational inertia of about 400Kg, will have to brush up on the math, and I already have an idea or two about calibrating it.

[Yow Ling]

I am interested in how you have found your dyno. Have you been able to use it very much?

We have got a drum and bearings from a scrap pile for ours now, just need to clean it up.

The drum is a bit rusty but we will skim and knurl it, so long as it runs true it should be good.

I think it has a rotational inertia of about 400Kg, will have to brush up on the math, and I already have an idea or two about calibrating it.

The dyno mite software has a wizard for entering the mass. you just enter the material the diameter(s) and a few dimensions of the roller and it figures it out. Its about $US500 with a data logger ignition pick ups etc http://performancetrends.com/dtm-dyno.htm bottom of the page for hardware

[TZ350]

.

Thanks for that, I will have a good look at it........

[Pumba]

Its about $US500 with a data logger ignition pick ups etc http://performancetrends.com/dtm-dyno.htm bottom of the page for hardware

Sounds like a legitimate business expense to me:whistle:

Infact I was just thinking I would happily chip in, in compensation for some dyno time. Saves me potentially paying it to a shop somewhere.

[TZ350]

.

Yep........it would be good to have dyno handy...........

Can anyone tell if the DynoMite basic software can pickup engine rpm directly from the engine or is the basic software limited to calculating the rpm from drum speed and bike gearing.

I can't really see anything definitive about it...........

[Yow Ling]

Yes it does, in the hardware part there s a USB box that has 3 or 4 inputs , drum speed and ignition are the minimum but you can log egt or cht or maybe O2. if you want more you need to buy the next box up I think it has 8 inputs

[Buckets4Me]

Sounds like a legitimate business expense to me:whistle:

Infact I was just thinking I would happily chip in, in compensation for some dyno time. Saves me potentially paying it to a shop somewhere.

one of the thinks said about this dyno is

CAN WE BUILD IT AS A TRAILER ????

and as I work at a trailer factory I cant see a reason why not
just need somewhere to park and a power point to plug into


.
Can anyone tell if the DynoMite basic software can pickup engine rpm directly from the engine or is the basic software limited to calculating the rpm from drum speed and bike gearing.


BB2-IPUH Inductive Pickup Cable (with clip) $30 us
212214

[Moooools]

I haven't posted on this thread before, but the talk of dyno and physics gets me all excited. :D

$500 sounds pretty steep for a straightforward set of equipment.

All that is really needed is an rpm readout for the engine and one for the barrel.
Just a hall effect sensor or even a light gate on the sensor would work just fine.

Then all is needed is a program to read it and output the data. This could be easily achieved in a C# windows form application. It would need a serial input to take samples of the rpm. And the time can be gotten from a timer in the program.

Then the physics is pretty straight forward:

Inertia could be closely modeled by a hollow cylinder, but it would not be perfect. It will do for an explanation.

Inertia= mass x radius^2
Torque = (Final angular velocity-Initial angular velocity) x Inertia
Power(in watts) = Torque x angular velocity

That is all very easy stuff for a computer to do.
Then a little bit of graphics to make a graph.
And export the data on a CSV (text File) for further use on excel or another graphing program.

[Yow Ling]

500 gets you the hardware , software, and ongoing support.
unless you can write and debug the program in less than 20 hrs total its cheaper to just buy it
download the demo software and see if it isnt good value.
TZ350 had heaps of problems getting a clean ignition signal, this comes with one !
Some people still build their own PCs , most people take the buy an appliance approach, which I think is the way to go here.

[F5 Dave]

One has to say, unless you have unlimited time & are idle rich, - which would you rather be building & developing? 1. dynos or 2. motorcycles, bearing in mind that neither is likely to bring any money in.

Any project is another project that will get pushed to the side.

[TZ350]

All that is really needed is an rpm readout for the engine and one for the barrel. Just a hall effect sensor or even a light gate on the sensor would work just fine.

Then all is needed is a program to read it and output the data. This could be easily achieved in a C# windows form application. It would need a serial input to take samples of the rpm. And the time can be gotten from a timer in the program.

Then the physics is pretty straightforward:

Inertia could be closely modeled by a hollow cylinder, but it would not be perfect. It will do for an explanation.

Inertia= mass x radius^2
Torque = (Final angular velocity-Initial angular velocity) x Inertia
Power(in watts) = Torque x angular velocity

That is all very easy stuff for a computer to do.
Then a little bit of graphics to make a graph.
And export the data on a CSV (text File) for further use on excel or another graphing program.

We have experimented with a Vallerman Kit from JayCar, it can read several digital and analogue inputs and send them to a computer via a USB port.

We could read the drum rpm digitaly, and/or analogue torque arm load via a load cell but we have not managed a good engine rpm signal yet.

One of the team ESE guys wrote a simple Windows based C+ program that pretty much worked as you described.

All good ideas, that you suggest, should be possible and would be what I would like to put together if we have the time……..but........

[TZ350]

…… which would you rather be building & developing? 1. dynos or 2. motorcycles,…..Any project is another project that will get pushed to the side.

Engines are my pick….

Making new chassis is a chore but has to be done…….

Now that we know the value of a dyno we have to build one if we can as we can’t afford a lot of time on a commercial one.

I am not the only one working on the teams bikes, but probably the most prolific at posting about the projects.......

To get there, we need to run the essential work in parallel…..

[Henk]

Could you get a reliable RPM signal by pillaging the pickup off a timing light? I'm sure you are going to tell me they only trigger on the odd spark and that you've tried it but it's the only obvious idea that springs to mind.

[SS90]

Graham Harris built a Dyno in Christchurch (still in use, and on a trailer) running c: it works well.

You just need a cheap inductive pick up to get your engine speed to roller speed for your initial run ( I have seen them in NZ, for peanuts) this is called a "ratio run", simply holding the bike in the same gear you will do the run in...... say 3rd, at say, 5,000 rpm, (so the engine is really smooth, and holding a constant rpm) then you can easily calculate your engine speed (for that gear) compared to your roller speed, expressed as a ratio.


In set up mode, the roller speed is displayed.

Simply divide engine speed by roller speed.

When you input the ratio, the program then knows that at x roller rpm, the engine is y rpm, and an inductive pick up is not needed anymore.


Graphing out power vs rpm is as simply as the push of the button. A bit more programming, and you can easily graph road speed vs power, though I only see that as useful for CVT transmissions really, RPM and Torque vs power is the real info you need.


Even with expensive inertia dyno's, the most common problem is the pickup for the RPM giving problems, but I am certain that once they have the ratio, and you are doing a run, the pick up is no longer used, and they simply rely on the roller speed to calculate the RPM.

The P4 I use is windows based, but calculates the ratio automatically, you simply set where you want to start measuring, connect the inductive pickup, hold the engine 300rpm below the selected start rpm (constant throttle is important) in the gear you will do the run, it calculates the ratio automatically, saves it, and the green light is flashed.

After the first run, you can simply remove the pick up, and, if you always use the same gear, you can do as many runs as you want.

If you stay in the same gear, the engine RPM and the roller rpm are always a direct relation.

I think you will find that most inertia dyno's only use the inductive pick up data for calculating the roller/engine speed ratio, then, after recording it, no longer use the pick up data during the run, as there is no need at all, unless you are, like I say using a CVT, or, an "all gear run", where there is no consistant ratio, due to the bike being run through all the gears to graph an "all gear run" (see attachment, in this case 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear, and the rpm is represented by the dotted red and white lines, road speed at the bottom) This is the only kind of dyno run that a constant engine RPM input is required.

I find runs using this method always read a little bit higher peak actually.

I would suggest if you wanted to write a program, just allow for a manual ratio input, it only takes a minute or two to get the ratio for each bike, and you can do as many runs as you like on the same bike with out needing to have a constant rpm pick up, and graphing against engine rpm is simple.

[speedpro]

Dynotech's dyno in Wellington used a pickup hung on the low tension side of the ignition coil

[Bert]

what about something like this:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZD1900&keywords=hall+effect&form=KEYWORD
connected a slotted cutout plate to your magneto and bob your uncle (sort of).
or back to Henks' idea regarding timing light pickup; given that you might loose 1 in 5/10 pulses, is it a real concern? as you will end up averaging the pulse frequency anyway (being the it is Revs Per Minute).
being a bit clever, you could do some maths during the information processing to remove upper and lower quartile frequencies (pulse periods) of a 5sec averaging period (or something like that would deal with the missed pulses).

Anyway here's a cool link to get your mouth watering (looks like a cool solution):
http://wotid.com/dyno/content/view/14/39/

[TZ350]

.

Jante Patterns and what they mean for the transfer streams and scavenging have been talked about before on this thread.

Bucketracer and Thomas are taking a closer look at them to see if they can measure the air pressures and draw the Jante pattern with a view to improving the flow of the scavenging streams.

Pages from chapter nine of "The High-Performance Two-Stroke Engine"

First published 2005 by Dr John C. Dixon. Senior Lecturer in engineering Mechanics. The Open University, Great Britain.

To read or print a page, open the link in a new window.

[TZ350]

Jante Patterns have been talked about before on this thread, and now Team ESE are taking a closer look at them.



Symmetry and disposition of the transfer flow patterns is important.

Although effective, we found water messy for checking this and are trying again with air..........

We have measured a significant difference in pressure between opposite sides (transfer ports) and this can also be seen in the air bubbles in the water.

Thomas and Bucket plan on experimenting with measuring the air pressure and drawing the Jante patterns and see if the pattern can be improved by working on the ports.