Britten vs Guzzi

[dangerous]

Here are some highlights from the 1995 BEARS (British European and American Race Series) race from Brands Hatch, a support during the World Superbike weekend that year. It features a battle between ex-500c rider Paul Lewis aka "Angry Ant" on the Raceco Moto Guzzi Daytona and the mighty Britten V1000's ridden by Andrew Stroud and Stephen Briggs, ohhh yeah take that :niceone:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/McnjxoBQ6TQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Subike]

thanks for that post d, looked like the Brittens were not even trying for the first half of the race, But you must feel good, till it shit its self, the Guzzi was doing dang good eh, Did you ever find out what broke on it?

[dangerous]

thanks for that post d, looked like the Brittens were not even trying for the first half of the race, But you must feel good, till it shit its self, the Guzzi was doing dang good eh, Did you ever find out what broke on it?20c relay... tell me bout it :rolleyes:

[Grumph]

Read the book D...it's not what it looks like. Stroud had been asked to make it look good so backed right off out of sight of the stands. Louie apparently had no idea what was going on....

[dangerous]

Read the book D...it's not what it looks like. Stroud had been asked to make it look good so backed right off out of sight of the stands. Louie apparently had no idea what was going on....whats the reason for that then? as in who asked and why...

[Grizzo]

Sweet! Cheers for posting.

[Grumph]

whats the reason for that then? as in who asked and why...

Tim Hanna quotes Stroud as saying Cathcart was trying to promote the class and asked if he'd make a race of it.
Stroud agreed. Page 421 for your ref.

[koba]

Interesting.

Stroud's qualifying time is well ahead of the others, there is quite a gap between the times shown in the video.

Stroud qualified at:
1.34.17

That time would have put him 30th on the WSB grid.

http://www.wsb-archives.co.uk/Results/1995/BrandsHatch/Qualifying.html

[willytheekid]

AS much as I LOVE the britten :love:

....LOOK AT THAT FUCKING GUZZI LAUNCH!! :Punk:

(Those buggers are lucky he "faked" that mechanical problem to give them a chance) :laugh:

Great post mate:niceone:

[avgas]

How the hell did anyone watch that BEARS race with that horrible soundtrack and being unable to hear the bikes?
I got bored after 1 minute.

[dangerous]

Tim Hanna quotes Stroud as saying Cathcart was trying to promote the class and asked if he'd make a race of it.
Stroud agreed. Page 421 for your ref.makes sence looking at the race, well done and either way all 3 are well out past the rest and I asume they wernt dordling around.




....LOOK AT THAT FUCKING GUZZI LAUNCH!! :Punk:

(Those buggers are lucky he "faked" that mechanical problem to give them a chance) :laugh: thats the one willy knew a old Daytona wouldnt crap out over a relay, but that thing must have some serious work done to it cos they only 92hp stock.



How the hell did anyone watch that BEARS race with that horrible soundtrack and being unable to hear the bikes?turned the sound off

[Kickaha]

Stroud qualified at:
1.34.17

That time would have put him 30th on the WSB grid.

http://www.wsb-archives.co.uk/Results/1995/BrandsHatch/Qualifying.html

Surely not, everyone knows the Britten was a world beater

[wharfy]

Surely not, everyone knows the Britten was a world beater

Maybe if Fogerty was riding it :)

[scrivy]

That would have been Stroudies easiest demonstration race and win!

[dangerous]

Read the book D...ohh what book G?

[Grumph]

ohh what book G?

Tim Hannas Britten book D....mum can read it to the boys (and you) at bedtime...as it's largely a fairy story.

I'll loan you a copy.

[dangerous]

Tim Hannas Britten book D....mum can read it to the boys (and you) at bedtime...as it's largely a fairy story.

I'll loan you a copy.deal... ill call in some time, wont be at next weekends meet as it clashs with the woodstock rally :facepalm:

[seymour14]

You also got to remember that Russell Josiah beat all the Britten's on a 750cc Kawasaki in there first year. Bet that never got into any of those pro-Britten books!

Probably why Britten turned to BEARS racing, as much as they were awesome, they weren't world beaters even in the day.

[SWERVE]

That brings back memories.... would have been at that meeting.
Im sure Andrew had soooooooooo much time on his hands during that ..he probebly thought of names for all the kids!
He tried to make a show of it...but no cigar!
really shows the Britten front end into "Druids" against the Guzzi (soggy ol sock) and i like guzzi,s
Must have been one of the easiest rides of his carreer.......

[dangerous]

really shows the Britten front end into "Druids" against the Guzzi (soggy ol sock) and i like guzzi,sYa notice that, talk about 'slip sliding away' think that was the Guzzi at max some how.

[wharfy]

You also got to remember that Russell Josiah beat all the Britten's on a 750cc Kawasaki in there first year. Bet that never got into any of those pro-Britten books!

Probably why Britten turned to BEARS racing, as much as they were awesome, they weren't world beaters even in the day.

Maybe not "World Beaters" but not a bad record - The Ducati's that the Britten beat at Daytona where pretty much full on factory jobs.
to quote somebody (who's name I don't remember) "Perhaps John's greatest talent was attracting and motivating other talented people"
It is still the most beautiful motorcycle ever (I think) and that was pretty much all John Britten. :)

1991

2nd and 3rd Battle of the Twins, Daytona, USA

1992

1st Battle of the Twins, Assen, Holland
2nd Pro Twins, Laguna Seca, USA
DNF Battle of the Twins, Daytona, USA

1993

Fastest Top Speed at the Isle of Man TT
1st (BEARS) 2nd (Formula 1) Australian TT Bathurst
3rd Battle of the Twins, Assen, Holland
NZ Grand Prix title
World flying mile record (1000 cc and under)
302.705 km/h
World standing start 1⁄4-mile (400 m) record (1000 cc and under)
134.617 km/h
World standing start mile record (1000 cc and under)
213.512 km/h
World standing start kilometre record (1000 cc and under)
186.245 km/h

1994

1st Battle of the Twins, Daytona, USA
1st and 2nd New Zealand National Superbike Championship [4]

[steveyb]

And don't forget that it wasn't actually allowed to race in many championships around the world due to small numbers built and/or engine capacity.
No WSBK, No MotoGP, No BSB, No AMA Superbike etc etc.

[ducatilover]

That poor wobbly Guzzi! (ferkin' sexxxxxy looking machine though)
I'm not entirely surprised the Britten beat the Guzzi, was a pretty wicked bike, regardless of all the anti-Britten fans

[seymour14]

Not knocking them, in fact I wished that our Government got behind them more in the day (typical to pour money into other trivial crap but not the motorcycling fraternity, they missed a brilliant opportunity here).

In fact, anyone with some foresight could have run a New Zealand series similar to that A1GP a few years back, inviting top riders to compete on Britten's in NZ, it would have been fantastic for the firm and an awesome advertisement for our country. Missed the boat there didn't we!!

No, I was just pointing out that as great as they were, Russell Josiah beat them on a 750cc Kawasaki, and that is how it went down. Britten fans can fob it off all they like, but that is just the way it was, doesn't knock the Britten's other accomplishments, but it certainly wasn't the second coming either!

[Kickaha]

And don't forget that it wasn't actually allowed to race in many championships around the world due to small numbers built and/or engine capacity.
No WSBK, No MotoGP, No BSB, No AMA Superbike etc etc.

It would have got smoked if it had

[paturoa]

As per earlier posts, would be a stunning vid with the original audio track!

Not sure if mentioned in the earlier posts but the riding from Ant to get the guzi competative with a Britten needs to be recognised. To punt that around the track like that is serious skill!

[tail_end_charlie]

It would have got smoked if it had

:oi-grr:

I'm gonna question that a little bit here. For example, 1993 AMA Superbike race at Charlotte Motor Speedway (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Jan/130116char.htm) the Ducati's were running right up there at the front (when they weren't quitting from electrical trouble that is) and the Britten went on to beat the Ducati's at Daytona in the battle of the Twins. So, using the Ducati's as a baseline, I would have thought that the Britten would have at least been in the ballpark for AMA Superbike, and probably not far off the BSB or WSBK.

That of course is assuming that the Ducati's at Daytona and Charlotte where in some way similar. The ones at Charlotte were the Ducati 851 Superbike (correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't know what exactly was racing at the Battle of the Twins at Daytona.

[pete376403]

Maybe not "World Beaters" but not a bad record - The Ducati's that the Britten beat at Daytona where pretty much full on factory jobs.
to quote somebody (who's name I don't remember) "Perhaps John's greatest talent was attracting and motivating other talented people"

Pretty sure that quote was by Kevin Cameron - TDC. Cameron also wrote a good story about Dr john Wittner developing his Guzzi into something that would both make serious power and stay together.

[Grumph]

:oi-grr:

I'm gonna question that a little bit here. For example, 1993 AMA Superbike race at Charlotte Motor Speedway (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Jan/130116char.htm) the Ducati's were running right up there at the front (when they weren't quitting from electrical trouble that is) and the Britten went on to beat the Ducati's at Daytona in the battle of the Twins. So, using the Ducati's as a baseline, I would have thought that the Britten would have at least been in the ballpark for AMA Superbike, and probably not far off the BSB or WSBK.

That of course is assuming that the Ducati's at Daytona and Charlotte where in some way similar. The ones at Charlotte were the Ducati 851 Superbike (correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't know what exactly was racing at the Battle of the Twins at Daytona.

Remember the WSB round at manfield where John challenged the visitors to a match race ? Just as well it naver happened as there was around 2 sec per lap difference in times....and that was with the hippy Jason McEwan riding who at that time I'd have ranked with Holden. Just an amusing interlude for the serious racers. Would have seriously embarrassed John though if they'd taken the challenge.

[scrivy]

Remember the WSB round at manfield where John challenged the visitors to a match race ? Just as well it naver happened as there was around 2 sec per lap difference in times....and that was with the hippy Jason McEwan riding who at that time I'd have ranked with Holden. Just an amusing interlude for the serious racers. Would have seriously embarrassed John though if they'd taken the challenge.

What would Brittens budget have been compared to the factory teams?

[tail_end_charlie]

Remember the WSB round at manfield where John challenged the visitors to a match race ? Just as well it naver happened as there was around 2 sec per lap difference in times....and that was with the hippy Jason McEwan riding who at that time I'd have ranked with Holden. Just an amusing interlude for the serious racers. Would have seriously embarrassed John though if they'd taken the challenge.

Remember? Naaa, considering that I was probably <10 years old, living overseas, and not watching racing. Hell, I didn't even know that there were WSBK rounds held in NZ! As a side note, when did that happen?

Interesting to know the 2 second difference in lap times around the same track. So the Britten wouldn't have been at the pointy end of the field, but it still would have been maybe midpack in WSBK (there is a 2 second time difference in WSBK between the front and middle/back now, so I imagine it would be the same or more in the early '90's)????

[koba]

Remember? Naaa, considering that I was probably <10 years old, living overseas, and not watching racing. Hell, I didn't even know that there were WSBK rounds held in NZ! As a side note, when did that happen?

Interesting to know the 2 second difference in lap times around the same track. So the Britten wouldn't have been at the pointy end of the field, but it still would have been maybe midpack in WSBK (there is a 2 second time difference in WSBK between the front and middle/back now, so I imagine it would be the same or more in the early '90's)????

1988, 89, 90, 92.

http://www.wsb-archives.co.uk/schedules.html

All the info you need to work it out is on that site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2TyAYsUkXo May also be of interest.

[tail_end_charlie]

1988, 89, 90, 92.

http://www.wsb-archives.co.uk/schedules.html

All the info you need to work it out is on that site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2TyAYsUkXo May also be of interest.

Very interesting, cheers for that.

[Grumph]

What would Brittens budget have been compared to the factory teams?

At that point in that season he probably had more money than the factory teams...They were at the end of the WSB series and working on the dregs of their season's budget. He had enough to put up a substantial cash prize - memory says several thousand $NZ. I was surprised at the time that one of the privateer teams didn't take him up on the offer as they were desperately short of cash....but also short of spares too with motors on their last legs before rebuilds.
At that point in time he was expanding the operation and had at least three people working for him full time...

So in real terms, less budget thasn the factories, more than the privateers, WAY more than anyone else in NZ....

[ducatilover]

I think it would have been quite interesting if they'd kept developing the bike. It did pretty well for what it was and perhaps could have become better? For a bike built with with less experience than a team of Kawasaki or Ducati engineers, it was impressive. I sure as hell wouldn't manage to build something that good

[Grumph]

I think it would have been quite interesting if they'd kept developing the bike. It did pretty well for what it was and perhaps could have become better? For a bike built with with less experience than a team of Kawasaki or Ducati engineers, it was impressive. I sure as hell wouldn't manage to build something that good

Again - read the Tim Hanna book. By the end John had lost focus and wouldn't listen to the very good guys he had working for him. They had the ideas, he had a heap of family pressure to drop it...then he got sick.
Given how things were left there was never going to be any progress post John as there was no budget forthcoming.
Given how a lot of the factories work with recent graduates coming in to the design teams to give "fresh ideas" I'd sooner have a bike built and developed by guys like those on the team...many of whom I know and still see.

[dangerous]

At that point in time he was expanding the operation and had at least three people working for him full time...yeah one was a mates brother quentin rowe, magic on a cnc... they did have a super single on the bench up and running IIRC, then john fell off his perch and I believe her in doors scraped everything?

[Grumph]

yeah one was a mates brother quentin rowe, magic on a cnc... they did have a super single on the bench up and running IIRC, then john fell off his perch and I believe her in doors scraped everything?

Don't know if the single actually ran - the head and weird cam arrangement got a lot of bench test time.
Kelford's made a bit out of rebuilding the cams for it - frequently.

Yeah, Kirsty plus the accountant from hell rang the death knell over everything.

[GD66]

really shows the Britten front end into "Druids" against the Guzzi (soggy ol sock) and i like guzzi,s


No doubt significantly better than the Guzzi's forks, but Stroud had little time for the front end and when we interviewed him at Pukekohe in 1999, he indicated it was less than perfect and said the bike could have been anything with a conventional set of forks in it.