Points scale

[jellywrestler]

Points Scale :1st 25 2nd 20 3rd 16 4th 13 5th 11 6th 10 7th 9 8th 8 9th 7 10th 6
11th 5 12th 4 13th 3 14th 2 15th 1


The points scale is listed above, what's the general consensus out there on the scores, happy with the way it is or got other ideas?

[budda]

Points Scale :1st 25 2nd 20 3rd 16 4th 13 5th 11 6th 10 7th 9 8th 8 9th 7 10th 6
11th 5 12th 4 13th 3 14th 2 15th 1


The points scale is listed above, what's the general consensus out there on the scores, happy with the way it is or got other ideas?

Thanks Spyda ...........

[scott411]

Points Scale :1st 25 2nd 20 3rd 16 4th 13 5th 11 6th 10 7th 9 8th 8 9th 7 10th 6
11th 5 12th 4 13th 3 14th 2 15th 1


The points scale is listed above, what's the general consensus out there on the scores, happy with the way it is or got other ideas?

the MX points scale is 25-22-20-18-16-15-14-13- etc down to 20th gets 1 point,

I actually like the road race one better, puts more on winning, and much easier to come back from a DNF and still win a series,

[Mental Trousers]

I'd rather see everyone who finishes get a single point. Not crashing out or having a mechancial should actually be worth something.

[roogazza]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember it was 10 for a win in the olden days ? If true that would seem to be a good idea with the 10 or 12 in most races today.
(or do we want a Helen Clark NZ with points for just being there?)

[neil_cb125t]

Points Scale :1st 25 2nd 20 3rd 16 4th 13 5th 11 6th 10 7th 9 8th 8 9th 7 10th 6
11th 5 12th 4 13th 3 14th 2 15th 1


The points scale is listed above, what's the general consensus out there on the scores, happy with the way it is or got other ideas?

Interestingly VMCC and PMCC and even the tri series don't run this system, is it run at the nats? The system in place is 25 for 1st, 22 for 2nd. I think 1st place should be at least 5 points ahead of 2nd.

How about 5 points for qualifying on pole position..... In Car racing being on pole is a huge advantage, on bikes pole only gives you less than half a bike length.....0.7m most cases 2nd on the grid puts you a bit wider which is better for T1 anyway. Setting pole is pretty wicked, be nice to give a rider a real reward for it.

[Pumba]

We could turn the whole point system on its head. For Water Ski Racing we used a point system taht awarded 1000 points to the winner, the remianing points there after were calculated based on how close you were to the finishing skiier.

An example (beraing in mind that all the figures are made up) is the winner got 1000 points. If you wer only 2sec back you could walk away with 997.65 points, 3rd place might have been 10sec and only gets 950 etc, etc. Generally being laped equated to -100points in the calculations.

Maybe it would not work for bikes, as it may not encourgae people to pass, although if it is the same guy beating you every round he is still going to win. What it would encourgae is those that may be furtehr down the field to keep pushing hard untill the end to remain close to the leading pack to maximise there points.

Just somthing to think about. Which I presume this thread was about.

[Mental Trousers]

(or do we want a Helen Clark NZ with points for just being there?)

Points for starting is shit. Points for actually finishing I can see the point of.


I think 1st place should be at least 5 points ahead of 2nd.

Definitely.


How about 5 points for qualifying on pole position..... In Car racing being on pole is a huge advantage, on bikes pole only gives you less than half a bike length.....0.7m most cases 2nd on the grid puts you a bit wider which is better for T1 anyway. Setting pole is pretty wicked, be nice to give a rider a real reward for it.

Nah. I've always looked at qualifying in terms of what row I'm on. Anywhere on the front row is what I want. Qualifying first is bragging rights.

Not that I'll ever qualify first, I'm usually still half asleep until AFTER the first session haha

[neil_cb125t]

Nah. I've always looked at qualifying in terms of what row I'm on. Anywhere on the front row is what I want. Qualifying first is bragging rights. Not that I'll ever qualify first, I'm usually still half asleep until AFTER the first session haha

Hmmmm it is a competition after all - giving every one points for finishing just creates "inflation" meaning if everyone get one, why dish them out? If you don't finish/dnf you get 0, there's not normally enough competitors in each class to make it all the way down for a competitor to receive 0 points for finishing.

My view is that within championships we want a more professional approach, riders are trying to obtain sponsors and support because they are aiming for pole, bringing in the trophies:first:.

Now what the go cart fellas do is start reverse grid and you get points for passing/moving up the order... thats pretty sweet!!

[budda]

Hmmmm it is a competition after all - giving every one points for finishing just creates "inflation" meaning if everyone get one, why dish them out? If you don't finish/dnf you get 0, there's not normally enough competitors in each class to make it all the way down for a competitor to receive 0 points for finishing.
My view is that within championships we want a more professional approach, riders are trying to obtain sponsors and support because they are aiming for pole, bringing in the trophies:first:.

Now what the go cart fellas do is start reverse grid and you get points for passing/moving up the order... thats pretty sweet!!

Agree with the first paragraph. as for the next one - what the hell is the problem here - this is REAL WORLD RACING, not bloody Playstation ! Its NOT about who set the fastest time, its about WHO BEAT THE MAN, otherwise it would all be sorted at qualifying, wouldnt it .... maybe we shouldreverse handicap the field based on Qualifying Time differences x the number of laps, imagine the hand-wringing then !!!!!!!!!!!

[neil_cb125t]

Agree with the first paragraph. as for the next one - what the hell is the problem here - this is REAL WORLD RACING, not bloody Playstation ! Its NOT about who set the fastest time, its about WHO BEAT THE MAN, otherwise it would all be sorted at qualifying, wouldnt it

Yep, it aint over till the black and white flag swings, however if we don't put pole on a pedestal, why have qualifying? Is it simply a safety aspect.. having quicker guys ahead of slower guys?

Again my club level racing experience tells me qualifying is all we racers get to be on pace, we have no practice, therefore I need to be as quick as I can as soon as I can.

When you look at GP or WSB, pole shows that the rider has made his bike setup and himself better than everyone else and work for one whole lap. Winning a race in WSB/GP shows that the team made the right predictions with regards to tire wear/bike setup so it could be fast for 30 laps.

We the club riders are lucky to have more than 6 laps. Tire wear, fuel, rider fatigue shouldn't really come into it:(.....so we must qualify well or get smashed to bits in T1.

[neil_cb125t]

maybe we shouldreverse handicap the field based on Qualifying Time differences x the number of laps, imagine the hand-wringing then !!!!!!!!!!!

lets do it!:headbang:

[Mental Trousers]

Hmmmm it is a competition after all - giving every one points for finishing just creates "inflation" meaning if everyone get one, why dish them out? If you don't finish/dnf you get 0, there's not normally enough competitors in each class to make it all the way down for a competitor to receive 0 points for finishing.

It's a damn shame there aren't enough racers to be awarding points all the way down.

But awarding points attracts riders and sponsors. Points scoring ride is something all sponsors want to hear.

Points for Qualifying is worse than points for finishing if you ask me. The guy who qualifies first and then loops it at turn 1/lap 1 hasn't completed the race and the race is what it's all about.

[neil_cb125t]

Points for Qualifying is worse than points for finishing if you ask me. The guy who qualifies first and then loops it at turn 1/lap 1 hasn't completed the race and the race is what it's all about.

yep I do agree there....

however how many times have you seen that happen

[Mental Trousers]

yep I do agree there....

however how many times have you seen that happen

That applies to all qualifying positions, not just first. But that's also why I reckon all finishers should get at least a point.

[CHOPPA]

I like this points system. It rewards riders for there positions. You can make points up fast if you have a crash and with our minimal amount of races at the nationals that is important.

[CHOPPA]

Also agree with the points for Qualifying. We use the same amount of money to do Qualifying and it would give us 3 points opportunitys each round instead of 2.

Its just as hard to beat "the man" on a stop watch as it is on the track.

[Tony.OK]

But that's also why I reckon all finishers should get at least a point.

http://www.lushquotes.com/pics/glenn-beck/Please-stop-teaching-my-children-that-everyone-gets-a-trophy-just-for-participating.-What-is-this,-the-Nobel-Prize%3F-Not-everybody-gets-a-trophy..jpghttp://www.lushquotes.com/pics/glenn-beck/What-is-the-point-of-competing-for-a-trophy-if-everyone-gets-a-trophy%3F.jpg:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Mental Trousers]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Heh, everyone gets a trophy would be giving just for turning up or starting mate.

[Tony.OK]

Heh, everyone gets a trophy would be giving just for turning up or starting mate.

Last race of the series, both top points scorers are tied for the series win with no other racers even close to being in the hunt, both are battling hell for leather and both outbrake each other and run off track, last lap and they are running in 15th and 16th positions, they cross the line still in the same positions..................................who should win the series? :msn-wink:

[Mental Trousers]

Last race of the series, both top points scorers are tied for the series win with no other racers even close to being in the hunt, both are battling hell for leather and both outbrake each other and run off track, last lap and they are running in 15th and 16th positions, they cross the line still in the same positions..................................who should win the series? :msn-wink:

Like that'll ever happen!!

If the object of the race is to win then only the race winner should get points cos he's the only one that actually achieve the objective. Everyone went boohoo at that a long time ago cos it's not fair and consistency should be rewarded etc. So the object is to finish the race as high up as you can and score points. Everyone who finishes the race achieves that objective.

I'm not saying it'll ever happen, but that's the way I look at it.

[Kickaha]

on bikes pole only gives you less than half a bike length.....0.7m most cases 2nd on the grid puts you a bit wider which is better for T1 anyway. Setting pole is pretty wicked, be nice to give a rider a real reward for it.

Some Sidecar stuff years ago the pole sitter got the front row dead centre all to himself

[Mental Trousers]

Some Sidecar stuff years ago the pole sitter got the front row dead centre all to himself

Now that would make qualifying first really important.

[neil_cb125t]

Like that'll ever happen!!

If the object of the race is to win then only the race winner should get points cos he's the only one that actually achieve the objective. Everyone went boohoo at that a long time ago cos it's not fair and consistency should be rewarded etc. So the object is to finish the race as high up as you can and score points.

I'm not saying it'll ever happen, but that's the way I look at it.

Yep

"Everyone who finishes the race achieves that objective" nope...... if your 45th, then you are slower than 44 people, the person that finishes 15th, 20th, 25th, 30th, 35th deserve more credit in the championship than 'you' finishing 45th in that race.

The points are capped because you don't know how many entries the class is going to have.

Maybe.... just maybe you could score points to 40th place BUT then you have to limit each class to only 40 entrants, that way you finish you get points. Winning would require the victor 80 points thou.....


this point is moot 90% of the time as we never have enough competitors to run out of point gaining spots.:weep:

[neil_cb125t]

interestingly my wife is a school teacher, she told me once that before the classes cross country race she asks the kids " right who's going to beat the teacher today?'

I stated to her that if I was a teacher I would ankle tap/spear tackle any kid that looked like he was going to pass me, I would not live with the shame.........2nd place is the first loser may that always stay.

[300weatherby]

Also agree with the points for Qualifying. We use the same amount of money to do Qualifying and it would give us 3 points opportunitys each round instead of 2.

Its just as hard to beat "the man" on a stop watch as it is on the track.

I like the AMA system, qualify first and get a point, set the fastest lap in a race and get a point.

The NZ grids however are set too short to give a meaningfull advantage, should be a full bike length.

[Mental Trousers]

this point is moot 90% of the time as we never have enough competitors to run out of point gaining spots.:weep:

90%?? It's much, much closer to 100% :(

[300weatherby]

90%?? It's much, much closer to 100% :(

Increase numbers by dropping one practise and having three 10 or 12 lap races in Superbike and 600's, there are a few more locally that would jump in and fill up the grid if they thought they had a shot at avoiding being lapped, and it gives the guys a wider spread of point scoring oportunity to help take luck out of the equasion

[Mental Trousers]

Increase numbers by dropping one practise and having three 10 or 12 lap races in Superbike and 600's, there are a few more locally that would jump in and fill up the grid if they thought they had a shot at avoiding being lapped, and it gives the guys a wider spread of point scoring oportunity to help take luck out of the equasion

The Superbike riders and teams chose to have 2 races per meeting at the Nationals to lower costs.

[300weatherby]

The Superbike riders and teams chose to have 2 races per meeting at the Nationals to lower costs.

Maybe they'd like to change back, if someone asked......

[jellywrestler]

Some Sidecar stuff years ago the pole sitter got the front row dead centre all to himself

never heard of that in this country

[Kickaha]

never heard of that in this country
Didn't say it was, pretty sure it was World champs, most likely in the nineties, I've seen the video

[slowpoke]

I like the AMA system, qualify first and get a point, set the fastest lap in a race and get a point.

The NZ grids however are set too short to give a meaningfull advantage, should be a full bike length.


Increase numbers by dropping one practise and having three 10 or 12 lap races in Superbike and 600's, there are a few more locally that would jump in and fill up the grid if they thought they had a shot at avoiding being lapped, and it gives the guys a wider spread of point scoring oportunity to help take luck out of the equasion

I like the sound of both of these. The cost saving argument of running two races doesn't really stand up, we're just used to spooning on a new set of soft tyres for each race. Limit the tyres to 2 sets to last 3 x 10lap races and the cost is the same, cheaper even without the extra practice session. The tyre manufacturers make hard tyres too. It'd be a pain in the arse carrying the appropriate tyres and the tyre-chess going on the pits would be a mind bender, but Joe Public would have more reason to come through the gate on Saturday if the fast guys were racing like everyone else.

[jasonu]

Last race of the series, both top points scorers are tied for the series win with no other racers even close to being in the hunt, both are battling hell for leather and both outbrake each other and run off track, last lap and they are running in 15th and 16th positions, they cross the line still in the same positions..................................who should win the series? :msn-wink:

It (should) go back to the most wins over the series, if that is a tie then 2nd placings etc.

[Skunk]

Points Scale :1st 25 2nd 20 3rd 16 4th 13 5th 11 6th 10 7th 9 8th 8 9th 7 10th 6
11th 5 12th 4 13th 3 14th 2 15th 1


The points scale is listed above, what's the general consensus out there on the scores, happy with the way it is or got other ideas?
Where did that points scale come from? MNZ 6.15.1 has 25, 22, 20, 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 as The scale. I know Moto4 is different.

[Kickaha]

I know Moto4 is different.

Moto4? you must mean Buckets

[roogazza]

Moto4? you must mean Buckets
LOL and don't forget Moto 5.....the lunch break.

[Mental Trousers]

LOL and don't forget Moto 5.....the lunch break.

I thought Moto5 was this

http://api.ning.com/files/GkHIlM0ED54RWGRMEi%2Axtw4QhC2TiLIAUx8ikojEM6AV4NTr pmkEFye71zU74jQkGrbcCaYuG79TznXBubYjd0d5RYO5iGHs/kawasaki_kids_tricycle__95654.jpg

[Skunk]

Moto4? you must mean BucketsYou can have your Buckets. We have quality in the North Island.

[Kickaha]

You can have your Buckets. We have quality in the North Island.

You mean after playing years of catch up you think you're ahead?

They'll always be Buckets but if it makes you feel better and you're to ashamed to be known as a Bucket racer you call them anything you want :bleh:

[Skunk]

You mean after playing years of catch up you think you're ahead?

They'll always be Buckets but if it makes you feel better and you're to ashamed to be known as a Bucket racer you call them anything you want :bleh::Offtopic: No shame from me. It's about the attitude of other people to encourage them to have a go. And the fact that most of the bikes are far removed from being 'buckets of shit' these days. You can hardly call what Sketchy is doing a bucket of shit can you? Team GPR and ESE are the same.

Anyway. Does anyone know where the points scale Jellywrestler quoted comes from?

[neil_cb125t]

:

Anyway. Does anyone know where the points scale Jellywrestler quoted comes from?

I have never seen it used, I like it more than the 25 for a win 22 for second. Why does winning a race only give you 1 extra point compared coming one place ahead of 3rd.

[Mental Trousers]

As used by MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3/WSBK/WSS/etc ....

http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/points

[RDjase]

:Offtopic: No shame from me. It's about the attitude of other people to encourage them to have a go. And the fact that most of the bikes are far removed from being 'buckets of shit' these days. You can hardly call what Sketchy is doing a bucket of shit can you? Team GPR and ESE are the same.

Anyway. Does anyone know where the points scale Jellywrestler quoted comes from?

http://mnz.edev.co.nz/docs/rules/2012_moms_chapter_22_road_racing.pdf?sfvrsn=2


22.8.8 Points are awarded for 1st to 15th placings as follows:25, 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9,
8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

Much better than using the MX points system

[steveyb]

As Jase points out, the 25, 22 etc system is that commonly used for MX racing.
Road racing has always traditionally used the 25, 20, 16 etc system and this is given in the MNZ MOMS.
The reason that VMCC use the 25, 22 etc system is simply because the timing system providers insisted on using it and would broach no argument to the contrary, no matter that the customer wanted something else.
They had started using it at their series and carried that insistance over.
In the end VMCC were more or less forced to accept it and has been that way ever since.
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not criticising either system, they both have merits.
One rewards consistency, one rewards merit. Both have merit as consistency is in itself worthy of merit.
But this topic was done to death on KB a couple of years back.
There are any number of points schemes. What about the one that V8 Supercars use for example? Not sure I understand it, but you get 100's (1000's??) of points a season, etc etc etc.
I argued for a change on the basis that our current product is old, traditional and staid. Purists will argue that the racing is as good as ever. All well and good. But at the moment there is little real depth at the elite level in NZ road racing. Changing the points system will not change that, but as part of some form of revamp to try and attract more of the Crusty Demons and Extreme sports teenagers (who are afterall the target demographic if we want to grow the sport and for it to acutally continue) into the sport it might help.
As you were......
I'll duck now.

[jellywrestler]

But at the moment there is little real depth at the elite level in NZ road racing. so how come last weekend at Teretonga five riders in one superbike race all set the fastest time on the track?
Have you had a look at any 600 races over the last three weekends?

[suzuki21]

so how come last weekend at Teretonga five riders in one superbike race all set the fastest time on the track?
Have you had a look at any 600 races over the last three weekends?

I think he meant lack of depth as in lack of riders Spyda? Half the field setting fastest laps is a bit sad to be honest.

[koba]

Deep Buckets.

[300weatherby]

I think he meant lack of depth as in lack of riders Spyda? Half the field setting fastest laps is a bit sad to be honest.

One can hardly describe a very small number of riders in any class, depth. How fast any of that miniscule number can go is not relevant to "depth"

New Zealand rugby has "depth"
New Zealand motocycle racing, does not.

You want "depth", make it feasible for an average fast club rider to be on the same grid.

[koba]

You want "depth", make it feasible for an average fast club rider to be on the same grid.

Or race buckets (or moto4/5).

When was the last time any other class had to have the start staggered as the entries exceeded the maximum number of starters-on-a-grid for the track?

I think it was 45 for Taupo...

[jellywrestler]

New Zealand rugby has "depth"
New Zealand motocycle racing, does not.

You want "depth", make it feasible for an average fast club rider to be on the same grid. i really don't understand what you're saying here, i don't follow rugby so you'll need to explain 'depth' in the context of the sport, and once you explain this explain how we don't have 'depth' in the motorcycle racing. also how's it not feasible for the Average fast club rider to be on the same grid???? They can go to the meetings and ride like anyone else can't they?
We may not have anyone that can go to the top at world championship level, kind of like the 16 or twenty previous years of rugby but still doesn't mean we've got no depth.

[Skunk]

http://mnz.edev.co.nz/docs/rules/2012_moms_chapter_22_road_racing.pdf?sfvrsn=2


22.8.8 Points are awarded for 1st to 15th placings as follows:25, 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9,
8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

Much better than using the MX points system
Cheers Jas. I know there were three points scales in the rule book but I couldn't remember where the third one was. Doh.
Chapters 6, 22 and 24.

[wharfy]

i really don't understand what you're saying here, i don't follow rugby so you'll need to explain 'depth' in the context of the sport, and once you explain this explain how we don't have 'depth' in the motorcycle racing. also how's it not feasible for the Average fast club rider to be on the same grid???? They can go to the meetings and ride like anyone else can't they?
We may not have anyone that can go to the top at world championship level, kind of like the 16 or twenty previous years of rugby but still doesn't mean we've got no depth.

Depth = number of people capable of filling the top places. In rugby for example there are 3 or 4 world class players that can slot into any position in the AB's ( Ist five eight for example, they won the world cup with our third choice ). How many superbike riders are there in NZ who can stay on the same lap as Stroud for a 20 lap race ? 8 - 10 ? ('m an admittedly "Below average" club rider I'd get lapped 3 times !!)

[300weatherby]

i really don't understand what you're saying here, i don't follow rugby so you'll need to explain 'depth' in the context of the sport, and once you explain this explain how we don't have 'depth' in the motorcycle racing. also how's it not feasible for the Average fast club rider to be on the same grid???? They can go to the meetings and ride like anyone else can't they?
We may not have anyone that can go to the top at world championship level, kind of like the 16 or twenty previous years of rugby but still doesn't mean we've got no depth.

-If you need the concept of "depth" explained, it is allready too late.
-You don't follow rugby......:gob:
-There are a number of riders in our catchment area that do not go 600's or Supers at National level because they risk being caught up in someone else's 2,3 or 4 way battle at the front, do you not actually understand the dangers inherent in that?
-Drop 1 practice, make it 3 10 lap races, costs do not change and you expose the grid to the risk of increased numbers, and the risk of begining to create................................ depth.
-Imagine, 15 races to win the National title instead of 10, you can crash, have a mechanical failure, make a bad tyre decision, or just have bad luck- and you are still in with a chance!, a point for pole, a point for fastest race lap rewards consistancy, a little less greed from MNZ as well would help, oh and: get rid of that arrogant tosspot Tuckerman.

Had no idea about that bloke untill I saw him addressing the Streetstock mob last nats at Ruapuna
In the real world, he would have been filled in, and the real punchup would have been over who went first, not even my class/problem/argument, but I would have happily given him a couple myself.:kick:

And just cause I don't go rubbing myself on Stroud, does not mean I don't get to have an opinion, right or wrong.:done:

[CHOPPA]

-If you need the concept of "depth" explained, it is allready too late.
-You don't follow rugby......:gob:
-There are a number of riders in our catchment area that do not go 600's or Supers at National level because they risk being caught up in someone else's 2,3 or 4 way battle at the front, do you not actually understand the dangers inherent in that?
-Drop 1 practice, make it 3 10 lap races, costs do not change and you expose the grid to the risk of increased numbers, and the risk of begining to create................................ depth.
-Imagine, 15 races to win the National title instead of 10, you can crash, have a mechanical failure, make a bad tyre decision, or just have bad luck- and you are still in with a chance!, a point for pole, a point for fastest race lap rewards consistancy, a little less greed from MNZ as well would help, oh and: get rid of that arrogant tosspot Tuckerman.

Had no idea about that bloke untill I saw him addressing the Streetstock mob last nats at Ruapuna
In the real world, he would have been filled in, and the real punchup would have been over who went first, not even my class/problem/argument, but I would have happily given him a couple myself.:kick:

And just cause I don't go rubbing myself on Stroud, does not mean I don't get to have an opinion, right or wrong.:done:

Some good ideas and thoughts behind them!

Billy has been talking about having a rep from each class put forward ideas hopefully it goes forward so we can mention these ideas to them

[budda]

Some good ideas and thoughts behind them!

Billy has been talking about having a rep from each class put forward ideas hopefully it goes forward so we can mention these ideas to them

Lets not forget why the current format exists - it is the way it is because thats what the Competitors asked for/demanded ...... personally lean toward the 3 race format, but as a seasoned Race Organiser like "weatherby" would undoubtably know, there's a sh1tload more to it than just re-naming a "practice" a "race".........

[300weatherby]

Lets not forget why the current format exists - it is the way it is because thats what the Competitors asked for/demanded ...... personally lean toward the 3 race format, but as a seasoned Race Organiser like "weatherby" would undoubtably know, there's a sh1tload more to it than just re-naming a "practice" a "race".........

We all have our specific knowledge and skills that other people cannot match, yours is world class ability to organise racing.

Enlighten me as to why it is not simple.

-Flag marshals already in place.
-Timing system already in place.
-Ambo in place ready to go.
-Competitors on track.
-No extra time required from the day.
-Comentators with a white knuckle grasp on the mike in place.
-Me and my popcorn at the ready.:rockon:

[Billy]

WOW!!!! And here was me thinking this thread was gonna be about the point scoring system ????

Be really awesome if those with an opinion read the rulebook so they could form an educated one instead of just shooting from the hip,Perhaps somebody would actually listen to them then.

[Mental Trousers]

WOW!!!! And here was me thinking this thread was gonna be about the point scoring system ????

This is KB au :facepalm:

[300weatherby]

This is KB au :facepalm:

Damnation!!! you beat me to it!:laugh:

[wharfy]

-There are a number of riders in our catchment area that do not go 600's or Supers at National level because they risk being caught up in someone else's 2,3 or 4 way battle at the front, do you not actually understand the dangers inherent in that?
And just cause I don't go rubbing myself on Stroud, does not mean I don't get to have an opinion, right or wrong



Round two Tri-series, last corner, last lap 3 riders (all possible national title winners) going for the win, 2 riders being lapped...
Watching from the stand it was like some slowmo horror flick. I could see them all converging until they dissapeard behind the tyre wall of the hairpin - a big cloud of dust - 4 riders come out the other side, a top contender out for the rest of the season.
That's why I don't do nationals, I don't want to be that lapped rider, even if you do nothing wrong, just hold your line as the rule book says you would feel like shit.... :(

[tail_end_charlie]

Round one Tri-series, last corner, last lap 3 riders (all possible national title winners) going for the win, 2 riders being lapped...
Watching from the stand it was like some slowmo horror flick. I could see them all converging until they dissapeard behind the tyre wall of the hairpin - a big cloud of dust - 4 riders come out the other side, a top contender out for the rest of the season.
That's why I don't do nationals, I don't want to be that lapped rider, even if you do nothing wrong, just hold your line as the rule book says you would feel like shit.... :(

Just to clarify, wasn't that Rd 2 at Manfield?

[wharfy]

Just to clarify, wasn't that Rd 2 at Manfield?

Yeah it was - :)

[jellywrestler]

-If you need the concept of "depth" explained, it is allready too late.i have an idea just wanted to hear your definition
-You don't follow rugby......:gob: rugby is a business first and a sport second and their sporting discipline and behaviour is dismal and doesn't interest me
-There are a number of riders in our catchment area that do not go 600's or Supers at National level because they risk being caught up in someone else's 2,3 or 4 way battle at the front, do you not actually understand the dangers inherent in that? i understands the risks just your earlier wording didn't clarify why they weren't doing it.most sports have a tiered level of abilitites, if they're not up to racing at that level then there's clubmans, they can still get to and be part of the meeting if they want to. With the top six at one stage at levels in the 600's all from Canterbury they're not actually short of people to follow and learn from etc are they
-Drop 1 practice, make it 3 10 lap races, costs do not change and you expose the grid to the risk of increased numbers, and the risk of begining to create................................ depth.they asked the riders in those classes what they want, this is what they wanted.



I still don't get the lack of depth of field, given the size of new zealand etc things ain't perfect but not dismal at the same time

over the last few weeks I've seen

a rider come through from 8th to first on the track in 600 supersport

a motard race with five different leaders over the race

125 racing where you could nearly throw a blanket over five bikes at the end of the race

in one superbike race there were 5 different fastest riders (with three of our top riders sidelined A Stroud R Clee & J Ross) this is with Bugden riding and he's set a couple of poles in aussie

approx 12 new riders to win their first ever points races this year in all classes

[quickbuck]

I still don't get the lack of depth of field, given the size of new zealand etc things ain't perfect but not dismal at the same time

over the last few weeks I've seen

a rider come through from 7th to first on the track in 600 supersport

a motard race with five different leaders over the race

125 racing where you could nearly throw a blanket over five bikes at the end of the race

in one superbike race there were 5 different fastest riders (with three of our top riders sidelined A Stroud R Clee & J Ross) this is with Bugden riding and he's set a couple of poles in aussie

approx 12 new riders to win their first ever points races this year in all classes
Loving those Stats....
Awesome time to be involved in the sport....

Actually, it is Motor Cycle Racing... So it's almost always awesome....

[wharfy]

I still don't get the lack of depth of field, given the size of new zealand etc things ain't perfect but not dismal at the same time



DEPTH = the distance from the top to the bottom of something.

OK here goes - one more time (rugby as the comparison but in NZ sailing would probably do as well)

England has over 2 million rugby players (from rugby world cup website)
New Zealand has less than 137,000 (from same website)

Despite our comparatively small pool of players -
New Zealand can field a team with our 3rd choice 1st five (a critical position) and still be competitive, this can apply to almost any position in the team
Any of the top 100 NZ rugby players could get a contract in England playing professional rugby for really BIG money (and many do after their AB days).

i.e. WE HAVE DEPTH TALENT in rugby.


We have less than half a dozen superbike riders that can even come close to the Aussie 3rd place guy !

Fuck if you selected the top 100 superbike racers in NZ you would probably have to include ME !!! (based on about the 80th fastest time round the cemetery circuit :) )

WE have had and do have a number of talented individuals, some have even won world championships - but we don't have hordes of world class motorcycle racers lining up to get seats in motogp or moto2 or moto3 or red bull rookies cup or ....
Even the dirt bike guys can only occasionally get a rider into the running for a world championship.
WE have NO DEPTH the TALENT only extends to the top dozen or so racers in the country

[gixerracer]

DEPTH = the distance from the top to the bottom of something.

OK here goes - one more time (rugby as the comparison but in NZ sailing would probably do as well)

England has over 2 million rugby players (from rugby world cup website)
New Zealand has less than 137,000 (from same website)

Despite our comparatively small pool of players -
New Zealand can field a team with our 3rd choice 1st five (a critical position) and still be competitive, this can apply to almost any position in the team
Any of the top 100 NZ rugby players could get a contract in England playing professional rugby for really BIG money (and many do after their AB days).

i.e. WE HAVE DEPTH TALENT in rugby.


We have less than half a dozen superbike riders that can even come close to the Aussie 3rd place guy !

Fuck if you selected the top 100 superbike racers in NZ you would probably have to include ME !!! (based on about the 80th fastest time round the cemetery circuit :) )

WE have had and do have a number of talented individuals, some have even won world championships - but we don't have hordes of world class motorcycle racers lining up to get seats in motogp or moto2 or moto3 or red bull rookies cup or ....
Even the dirt bike guys can only occasionally get a rider into the running for a world championship.
WE have NO DEPTH the TALENT only extends to the top dozen or so racers in the country

Talent as nothing to do with NZ not having world series riders. It is all about money as it is a business just like ugby- I would say Simon Crafar and Aaron Slight were the last to get in the big league based on talent and even one of them had a very long hard gring to get in the top ranks. If you have one guy with talent any other rider can come along and buy his ride from under him its just bollockes really

[CHOPPA]

Surely you all should be able to work out the complexities in why its harder to have depth in a sport like motorcycle racing when its so expensive, dangerous, limited practice time and limited career path. You cant just rely on your genes...

I think we all do pretty bloody well and there are good fields. It would be nice to see more people racing. If you get lapped thats part of racing, you shouldnt feel bad or not race for that reason. It is part of racing and we all have the same right to be on the track

We all just do this because we LOVE it!

My advice to young guys would be to get a good job or trade because there is no future in racing bikes, just do it because you love it.

I work with Sam Croft and although I think its a great opportunity for him to do the EJC, I cant understand spending $80k in 6 months when he could stay home earn money buy a 600 race it for 3 years and still have enough money left over to a 2 month trip around europe... If he wins he will get a ride on a 600 in europe but it will still cost 50k minimum to stay there and ride it, after 5 years and about half a mill he might start getting paid if he is consistantly in the front. if he comes second he will come home to no ride, no bike just crossed fingers someone will give him a ride

*You know I just want you to stay at work and not leave me alone with the retards aye Sam??

[steveyb]

Wharfys comments about depth in NZ racing are on the money, but so are Choppas. And funnily enough, gixxerracer knows a thing or two too. The world of talent alone getting you a ride in an elite series (even Rookies Cup it seems) are well and truely over. EVERYONE has to bring money to the table, even Lorenzo and Rossi. If it is not out of Dads pocket, then it is from personal sponsors. Understand that well.

As I have oft commented (for what it is worth, which admittedly may not be much):
If you want to be world champion, go to Europe (but move there to make a life, not necessarily whip over for one series or so, and you have to be already on the ladder at 12-14 yrs old. That is simply the reality of much sport now not just bike racing).
If you want to make money, go to USA (although that might not be so great these days, but it will come back, that is just the nature of the American way).
If you want to have a hard time and spend plenty, go to Australia (from the horses mouth, we actually get more support at grass-roots level than they do in Australia).
If you want to have fun racing bikes and a not so bad lifestyle, stay in NZ.

BUT, and there is always one, money is just money. It is a tool to be used to provide the things in life that an individual wants or needs.
And funnily enough, for someone who has at least some wherewithall, money has a habit of turning up when you need it the most. It is not always easy, but it usually works out.

AND, opportunities often come but once in life, twice if you are lucky or plan well.

So, the EJC opportunity for Sam (and many others like him) is likely to be available just once, or twice if they are in the right place at the right time.

So, my own opinion, while agreeing strongly in principle with Choppa, is to seize the opportunity if you can (by working hard to find the support, whatever type that might be) and when you can. Never die wondering, is the cliche. Carpe diem.

BUT be very realistic about what the end-game might or will be.
Plan carefully for what happens afterwards, whatever the outcome.

If you do go to Europe for EJC or something like it, why not look around to stay there for some years, rather than just coming straight back here?
Find work while you are there, base yourself in a tax haven (e.g. Andorra, Monaco, Lichtenstein) or out east (Czech, Poland, Slovenia, Romania) rather than in London.
Learn to speak some francais, deutsch, italiano, or espanol, etc. Having english only will not endear you to continental based teams and owners.
Put good back-up plans in place and don't just fly by the seat of your pants, as your pants can easily be down-trou'd.

But after all that, when these young riders get that experience and do come home, hopefully they will continue to race here (many from the older days have/did not continue for whatever reasons) and raise the bar, and increase the depth and maybe open doors for other young riders to follow them.

Good luck. We will all be rooting for ya's.

[wharfy]

Talent as nothing to do with NZ not having world series riders. It is all about money as it is a business just like ugby- I would say Simon Crafar and Aaron Slight were the last to get in the big league based on talent and even one of them had a very long hard gring to get in the top ranks. If you have one guy with talent any other rider can come along and buy his ride from under him its just bollockes really

Yeah, I know that the All blacks don't wear addidas boots (or whatever) because they are the best they wear them because addidas paid the NZRFU the most. However I must admit to being a bit surprised (disappointed maybe ) when I read Aaron Slights book and he said he had to use after market parts that degraded the performance of the bike because a sponsor paid BIG bucks for them to be used, and that was a decade ago in WSBK :(
As for somebody with less talent being able to buy your ride out from under you - that IS very sucky..:sick:


Surely you all should be able to work out the complexities in why its harder to have depth in a sport like motorcycle racing when its so expensive, dangerous, limited practice time and limited career path. You cant just rely on your genes...

I think we all do pretty bloody well and there are good fields. It would be nice to see more people racing. If you get lapped thats part of racing, you shouldnt feel bad or not race for that reason. It is part of racing and we all have the same right to be on the track

We all just do this because we LOVE it!

My advice to young guys would be to get a good job or trade because there is no future in racing bikes, just do it because you love it.

I work with Sam Croft and although I think its a great opportunity for him to do the EJC, I cant understand spending $80k in 6 months when he could stay home earn money buy a 600 race it for 3 years and still have enough money left over to a 2 month trip around europe... If he wins he will get a ride on a 600 in europe but it will still cost 50k minimum to stay there and ride it, after 5 years and about half a mill he might start getting paid if he is consistantly in the front. if he comes second he will come home to no ride, no bike just crossed fingers someone will give him a ride

*You know I just want you to stay at work and not leave me alone with the retards aye Sam??

Well some on here take some convincing we don't have depth - never mind why :)
As you say there are a number of reasons, none of them trivial :(


Wharfys comments about depth in NZ racing are on the money, but so are Choppas. And funnily enough, gixxerracer knows a thing or two too. The world of talent alone getting you a ride in an elite series (even Rookies Cup it seems) are well and truely over. EVERYONE has to bring money to the table, even Lorenzo and Rossi. If it is not out of Dads pocket, then it is from personal sponsors. Understand that well.

As I have oft commented (for what it is worth, which admittedly may not be much):
If you want to be world champion, go to Europe (but move there to make a life, not necessarily whip over for one series or so, and you have to be already on the ladder at 12-14 yrs old. That is simply the reality of much sport now not just bike racing).
If you want to make money, go to USA (although that might not be so great these days, but it will come back, that is just the nature of the American way).
If you want to have a hard time and spend plenty, go to Australia (from the horses mouth, we actually get more support at grass-roots level than they do in Australia).
If you want to have fun racing bikes and a not so bad lifestyle, stay in NZ.

BUT, and there is always one, money is just money. It is a tool to be used to provide the things in life that an individual wants or needs.
And funnily enough, for someone who has at least some wherewithall, money has a habit of turning up when you need it the most. It is not always easy, but it usually works out.

AND, opportunities often come but once in life, twice if you are lucky or plan well.

So, the EJC opportunity for Sam (and many others like him) is likely to be available just once, or twice if they are in the right place at the right time.

So, my own opinion, while agreeing strongly in principle with Choppa, is to seize the opportunity if you can (by working hard to find the support, whatever type that might be) and when you can. Never die wondering, is the cliche. Carpe diem.

BUT be very realistic about what the end-game might or will be.
Plan carefully for what happens afterwards, whatever the outcome.

If you do go to Europe for EJC or something like it, why not look around to stay there for some years, rather than just coming straight back here?
Find work while you are there, base yourself in a tax haven (e.g. Andorra, Monaco, Lichtenstein) or out east (Czech, Poland, Slovenia, Romania) rather than in London.
Learn to speak some francais, deutsch, italiano, or espanol, etc. Having english only will not endear you to continental based teams and owners.
Put good back-up plans in place and don't just fly by the seat of your pants, as your pants can easily be down-trou'd.

But after all that, when these young riders get that experience and do come home, hopefully they will continue to race here (many from the older days have/did not continue for whatever reasons) and raise the bar, and increase the depth and maybe open doors for other young riders to follow them.

Good luck. We will all be rooting for ya's.

Yeah if you get that chance give it a crack - Trust me - when your laying in the recovery position, waiting for an ambulance knowing there is a better that even chance you will be cold before it arrives - you are NOT wishing you saved all that money you spent on racing :)

A couple of lines from great songs sum it up:
"You never understood that it ain't no good, you shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you" - Bob Dylan
" Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention" - Frank Sinatra (although I don't think he wrote it :) )