North Korea v America

[awa355]

Can you see this escalating? The north Koreans are talking tough about confronting America. Which also means involving sth K, japan, Hyosung parts supply etc.

On their own, they probably would not worry the Americans too much, but with their cuzzies just across the border, that might be another matter.

In the air and at sea the USA would be superior, but they wouldn't want to get involved in a land war.

I think the Americans would like to nail the northern peasants, but with China and Russia looking over the backyard fence, they probably wont.

And how the fuck can this tinpot nation afford such a military force?? What is their export industry based on?

[Nova.]

i don't get why any country would be allies with North korea..

[mashman]

They're not confronting America, they're just testing a long range missile that just happens to be pointing towards the US. Stop being such a drama queen.

[Usarka]

They ruled the nights, and the nights seemed to last as long as six weeks...

[spanner spinner]

And how the fuck can this tinpot nation afford such a military force?? What is their export industry based on?


You just spend the handouts that are meant to feed and look after your general peasants on your military, there are plenty of there neighbours willing to fund them as long as they keep poking america with a stick. small one in there case but when nuclear tipped very affective.

[Akzle]

And how the fuck can this tinpot nation afford such a military force?? What is their export industry based on?

when you don't trade in american dollars, or play at the jew-ridden world economoney, you're free to be as "rich" as you like.
they probably mine their own resources and use their domestic labour market, with a good dose of depleted uranium from their ruski-red brothers.
just as well, america needs to be taken down a peg or 12.

[mashman]

The probably print their own money... the 'Chosun Won' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_won)

[oldrider]

when you don't trade in american dollars, or play at the jew-ridden world economoney, you're free to be as "rich" as you like.

There is quite a lot of evidence / opinion that this is true.

they probably mine their own resources and use their domestic labour market, with a good dose of depleted uranium from their ruski-red brothers.

Again there is quite a lot of supporting evidence / opinion contending that this is true.

Just as well, america needs to be taken down a peg or 12.


Really? Why? Probably the only reason that you have the freedom to have and voice such opinions about that, is because of the Americans doing all the dirty work to protect you while you return the favour by behaving like North Korea! ... Choice!



The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

[ellipsis]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

...I know who I would rather have as a military friend...but generalisations spouting from some cock who probably wouldn't know he was being fucked 'til he coughed are not worth replying to...oh fuck, I just did

[Milts]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

You mean the way the took out Germany.... oh wait 9 in 10 german casualties died fighting the russians?

Oh no you mean when they saved us from the Vietcong, who if they won the war were going to start a domino effect leaving us communist.

Oh wait.

(Sorry, mostly poking fun - America have done much good - but their importance in 20th century history is overstated, and most of the good they did was economic not military).

[Dean]

Fuck I remember making a thread of prediction about this a few years ago....cunts didnt listen aye

[Zedder]

You mean the way the took out Germany.... oh wait 9 in 10 german casualties died fighting the russians?

Oh no you mean when they saved us from the Vietcong, who if they won the war were going to start a domino effect leaving us communist.

Oh wait.

(Sorry, mostly poking fun - America have done much good - but their importance in 20th century history is overstated, and most of the good they did was economic not military).

Yeah, the Americans are very cunning though. Even before they entered WW2 they held a meeting in 1941 to define Allied goals for the post-war world. Then in 1944, they established ongoing rules for the commercial and financial relations of the major industrial states.

[mashman]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

Aye... the real fuckers are the same fuckers in every country... usually the ones setting monetary policy and setting the rules, I mean laws. Matters not the accent, colour, age or gender... coonts is coonts.

[Road kill]

So long as I can still ride my "American" bike after the dust settles I don't really care who wins.<_<

[mashman]

So long as I can still ride my "American" bike after the dust settles I don't really care who wins.<_<

There'll likely be an awful lot of parts just lying around.

[SMOKEU]

Nuke DPRK.

[Swoop]

It's just the Norvern Munkees sabre rattling again.

The tiny amount that people know about what's going on there is laughable.
China has been attempting to stop this test happening for several months now. Their last "explosion" was a fizzle (didn't work properly) so this one has to be tested to see if they have got it right this time.
Foreign aid is drying up because of the corruption endemic there and donated food is stolen, sold to the poor at huge profits, or ends up in the pantry of the ruling families.
The missiles they fire haven't got the oomph to get very far, but are great at attracting attention and being used as a bargaining chip for foreign aid.

[SMOKEU]

The missiles they fire haven't got the oomph to get very far, but are great at attracting attention and being used as a bargaining chip for foreign aid.

Those North Korean people surely know how to troll.

[HenryDorsetCase]

when you don't trade in american dollars, or play at the jew-ridden world economoney, you're free to be as "rich" as you like.
they probably mine their own resources and use their domestic labour market, with a good dose of depleted uranium from their ruski-red brothers.
just as well, america needs to be taken down a peg or 12.

Oh dude you could not be more incorrect:

One of the great things about democracy is that governments want to involve the people. and one of the ways they do that is by employing motivated talented people to do research that is then published.

I know you will distrust this link because of the source (Its the CIA) but please just click thru and read the economic section.

Their "domestic labour market" as you put it is not a market at all (its a command economy yo!) and I believe that the posturing and cult of personality involved around the leader is being used (along with an utterly state run and controlled media in-country) as a tool to oppress their domestic population. Sabre rattling at the Great Satan is just that: As for the missiles, even with nuclear warheads, the States doesnt have much to worry about. They are getting a LOT of practice and refining that missile defence system with the present contretemps in Gaza/Israel. Google the stats on that: number launched vs number landing. It is instructive and I won't spoil the surprise for you.

N Korea (or "Best Korea" as I prefer it) will go the way of all of the Soviet style communist republics. I reckon 20 years tops and it will be integrated into South Korea. I hope not, but possibly as a result of a war. And don't say "Well it didnt happen in 1950" because geopolitically this is a very different age: there is no appetite (and I would suggest, ability) on Russia to back a land war in the Korean peninsula, and while China would want to be seen to be supporting it, I dont think for a minute they wouldnt cut them loose if they were losing.

My personal view is that Best Korea is two crop failures away from widespread famine, popular revolt, and Sth Korea rolling in pretty much unopposed by the population but with pockets of diehards who will have to be squashed flat. South Korea has the money, it has the troops, it has or will have the gear, and if it ever has the will, look out.

My 2c.

Heres the world fact book link.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html


Tell me I'm wrong, and why.

English please.

[HenryDorsetCase]

And how the fuck can this tinpot nation afford such a military force?? What is their export industry based on?

they dont really have an export industry, and they afford their military force by starving their people.

Does no one read history any more?

I did enjoy the segue from "Oh noes, Russia and China backing Best Korea vs South Korea backed by the US, and that will fuck up the Hyosung parts supply chain." Personally I am big fan of Samsung so if their TV prices go up I will be pissed.

But Russia's out. China's in but have no appetite to back this. Its for domestic consumption only.


Theres a really interesting article on a man who went on holiday to Best Korea. It is fabulous: www.vice.com and search.


In my work life I have been dealing over the past year with a bunch of Korean people, and with Kookmin Bank which is a huge bank out of South Korea, with an office in NZ. They're great, but the interpersonal issues are hilarious. Oh no, Mr Park does not talk to Mr Choi because Mr Choi's background is from Best Korea, and Mr Park's background is the south. You have to talk to Mr Lee who will talk to Mr Choi then come back to us with a response. These are all NZ residents by the way (and not their names: I just picked the three most common Korean surnames)

[onearmedbandit]

Fuck I remember making a thread of prediction about this a few years ago....cunts didnt listen aye

Damn, if only the world had listened to you huh.

[Swoop]

Best Korea is two crop failures away from widespread famine...

Sorry but widespread famine is already there and getting worse. International food aid is drying up because of the lack of product that reaches the "needy".
South Korea is potentially a unifying force, but Mr China is likely to annex the area before that happens.

[ellipsis]

...y kahn ellybolli jusgedilong...clazy worw...

[avgas]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JWk5nnxc3Yk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
http://www.homefront-game.com/home

[avgas]

Sorry but widespread famine is already there and getting worse. International food aid is drying up because of the lack of product that reaches the "needy".
South Korea is potentially a unifying force, but Mr China is likely to annex the area before that happens.
Besides China is already having fun with Japan and US. Last I read the Choppers have long range tanks fitted last week, and this morning their aircraft carrier has left dock for "training exercises".
Not to mention their first successful test of what they have named "Carrier buster" missile yesterday.

Still think its all hot air. But I got that wrong about Iraq and Syria........US dived into that like a pig in the mud.

[Usarka]

If there is another usa vs korea war then at least we might get some more good tv shows like mash.....

[nodrog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R5dk0JY2xc

[Swoop]

... and this morning their aircraft carrier has left dock for "training exercises".

They will be doing that for quite some time. Learning how to operate naval aviation from scratch (or pirated instruction books/spies) takes a few years...
Incorporating one into a CBG is another part of the problem.

[awa355]

They will be doing that for quite some time. Learning how to operate naval aviation from scratch (or pirated instruction books/spies) takes a few years...
Incorporating one into a CBG is another part of the problem.

They will be non the wiser for reading any instruction book written by themselves.

" Injury may be happend by incorek usage of accesores with pointed end. Always keep pointed end away from user."

" For best shootings, see user maual"

" allways wear approved apparatus for maximum safety"

" If no goes 'bang' return to dealer for service" :bye:

[Swoop]

Latest:

29 January, 2013: The proposed new UN sanctions brought forth the usual threats of massive retaliation and accusations of an American plot of destroy North Korea. After over half a century of such threats North Korea never made good on them. There have been some minor attacks, like a lot of commando operations in the 1960s, which evolved into kidnapping South Korean and Japanese civilians and landing spies via small submarines.

Three years ago a South Korean warship was torpedoed and a South Korean island shelled. There have been a few minor incidents on the DMZ (demilitarized zone that separates the two countries) but that’s it. In short, the threats don’t have much impact and that makes North Korean leaders even angrier. The problem up there is that, since the end of the Cold War in 1991 (and the elimination of massive Russian aid), North Korea has slid into extreme poverty and gradual loss of military capabilities. This last item is top secret up there, but in the last decade a growing number of North Koreans (over 20,000) have escaped and reached South Korea.
There they are debriefed by intelligence experts. This creates an accurate picture of the decline of the North Korean military.

This explains the increasing North Korean efforts to build nuclear weapons. This is cheaper than trying to maintain the capabilities of their million man armed forces. North Korea could still launch a conventional attack on South Korea but their chances of success (conquering the south) are now zero. The only question is how much damage they could inflict.

That’s a scary prospect for South Koreans because North Korea still has the ability to do major damage to Seoul (the southern capital where half the population and a quarter of the GDP are). South Koreans have more to lose than the northerners. Sprawling Seoul is 40-50 kilometres from the North Korea border. The city alone is 600 square kilometres, and the suburbs are even larger. There are over 17,000 people per square kilometre (45,000 per square mile) in the city. The southerners know the north has nothing to lose, are desperate, and heavily armed.

What do you do? South Korea has responded by increasing its ability to quickly halt any rocket and artillery bombardment from the north. This would involve a lot of artillery and smart bomb use in a short time. Many North Korean targets would be destroyed but the south has much more to lose, even if the northern attack is cut short.

Despite the declining morale and discipline in the northern military, North Korea is still believed to have enough control over their forces to launch an attack on the south that would do lots of damage and kill thousands of southerners. Such an attack would be suicide for the northern rulers because the south has made it clear to North Korea and China that the retaliation would involve an invasion of the north.

North Korea can no longer rely on Chinese guarantees of military and diplomatic intervention to stop the South Korean advance. China is getting fed up with the northern leadership resistance to economic reforms (similar to those that succeeded in China).
While North Korea does not have a usable nuclear weapon, they could have one in the next decade or so.

Anti-missile defences for South Korea would have a difficult time stopping the use of such a nuke because the north could launch hundreds of missiles and rockets at once and any one of them could contain the nuke. It might be over a decade before this scenario becomes a reality, and this is what keeps northern leaders going. But even the nuclear threat might not save the north because the economy up there keeps getting weaker, not stronger.

Google announced that it had coordinated the efforts of many volunteers to create a new, much more complete, map of North Korea for Google Maps. This sort of approach (“crowdsourcing”) is increasingly popular, especially with services like Google Earth that constantly produces vast quantities of new data. The new North Korean map shows locations of roads, prison camps, and military bases that North Korea had long considered secret information (a common practice in communist dictatorships).

Although the North Korean government has long produced methamphetamines for export, there is a growing problem with northerners obtaining meth and becoming addicted. This is a serious problem because most of the people with enough money to support a drug habit are from the small ruling class (and the growing number of market entrepreneurs). The government has ordered the security forces to crack down on drug dealers. Peddling this stuff is very lucrative, as a gram of meth goes for over $250 on the street. Addicts within the government are more prone to steal government assets or even sell information to foreigners.

A persistent drought (that reduced hydroelectric power) and fuel shortages (no cash for oil imports) have sharply reduced electricity supplies. That has reduced economic activity still further, with trains (85 percent of them electrified) and factories unable to operate and farms producing less because irrigation pumps or farm machinery have no power.
There's also been a growing fertilizer shortage. Nuclear and missile programs have priority on energy and cash for imports, but this is in short supply as well. The American led arms embargo has been increasingly effective, and fewer missiles and other weapons are being delivered. Orders are down, as customers fear non-delivery or retribution by the United States for flaunting the embargo.

The hydroelectric shortages are worse in the cold weather, when reservoirs are at their lowest. The electricity shortages are worst in the northeast and are so bad this year that many trains are not running at all.
While the new government of Kim Jong Un has promised reform, not much has been delivered. As a result the brief enthusiasm for the new 29 year-old leader is rapidly evaporating, especially among the younger generation.

27 January, 2013: Japan launched two more reconnaissance satellites (one photo and one radar) to keep an eye on North Korea military developments. While the resolution of these birds is not much better than Google Earth, it allows the Japanese to monitor specific areas of North Korea. Japan has been using its growing fleet of recon satellites to do this for over a decade.

24 January, 2013: North Korea announced that it would proceed with a third nuclear weapons test and more long range missile launches. The U.S. is now the official target for all this because North Korea believes the Americans are behind the increased economic sanctions. This is not entirely true, as even the Chinese back the sanctions and wants the north to back off and concentrate on their deplorable domestic situation.

23 January, 2013: The UN agreed to increase the economic sanctions on North Korea in response to continued North Korean development of ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons. The new sanctions name more individuals and North Korean firms that are engaged in foreign trade.

20 January, 2013: A senior executive of Google visited North Korea and was shown the limited access (some government and military officials and university faculty and students) to the Internet. Other North Koreans can only use a tightly controlled intranet (Internet-like system that does not extend beyond North Korea). The Google executive told North Korean officials that the lack of widespread use to the global Internet would seriously impede North Korean economic growth. This aided the faction within the government that has pushed for a censored form of Internet, similar to that in China.

17 January, 2013: South Korea announced that its investigation into a major Internet based attack on a South Korean newspaper (critical of North Korea) did in fact come from North Korea. The north has increased its use of the Internet to attack the south and is believed to have used their new capabilities to conduct espionage as well.

14 January, 2013: Foreigners are now allowed to bring their cell phones with them to North Korea but must buy a $67 SIM card to make calls in North Korea. There are about 1.8 million legal cell phone users in North Korea, plus several hundred thousand who illegally use Chinese cell phones along the Chinese border.

After lifting the ban on women riding bicycles last August, the government has suddenly revived it. While the old ban only involved a fine (about 60 cents, a lot for most North Koreans) the new ban involves seizing the bicycle after the first offense.
Last August an attempt to come up with inexpensive things that would improve morale resulted in the repeal of the 1990s law that prohibited women from riding bicycles.

This law was originally passed in response to the death of the daughter of a senior army general, who was hit by a car while on a bicycle in the capital. This law was very unpopular and women would often take their chances and pay the fine if caught. But if caught too many times, the bike (a valuable item) could be confiscated.

One reason bikes were so expensive was because North Korea never produced them, they were all imported from China or Japan. This has long been another source of irritation for most North Koreans. In the last decade the law was generally ignored in the countryside but still sporadically enforced (as a source of income for cops) in cities (especially the capital).
Apparently the police missed the fines and that hurt their morale. In the last year the government has ordered greater use of checkpoints, especially temporary ones, in order to catch illegal traders or those using vehicles for illegal business.

This has not worked out well because the police quickly turned this into a new source of bribes. Being a policeman is now seen as a very lucrative job.

[Akzle]

Latest:

TL: DR. sumarise it for those of us with short attention spans/ something better to do with our time...

[ellipsis]

TL: DR. sumarise it for those of us with short attention spans/ something better to do with our time...

...the North Koreans are as fucked in the head as you...hows that?

[awa355]

Swoop. Well worth the read, regardless of what Kermit says,

[Swoop]

Hmmm. Things are getting more interesting oop norf'...


North Korean and Chinese officials are still haggling over what to do in response to China’s unprecedented vote to back UN condemnation of North Korean nuclear weapons development and what appears to be preparations for a third nuclear weapons test.

China has made it clear, and very public, that such a test would result in less aid from China. That’s serious for North Korea, which is undergoing a famine and severe energy shortage. China is North Korea’s major aid donor and trading partner.

Most North Korean exports are illegal items (weapons, drugs, counterfeit currency) that can only be moved to foreign customers because of Chinese cooperation. China wants North Korea to fix its economy with reforms (more free market activity, which saved China three decades ago). But the North Koreans only pay lip service to the economic reforms and instead move ahead in developing nuclear weapons and believing their own propaganda about what a swell country they are.

The Chinese UN vote may also indicate that the Chinese will finally execute an option they have been working on for over a decade; backing a coup in North Korea by pro-Chinese officials.

North Koreans are aware of these rumors and in the last year many senior officials were forcibly retired (or executed). While presented as an effort to get some younger leaders into action, it also appeared to be a purge of people with questionable loyalties (real or imagined.)

[Akzle]

...the North Koreans are as fucked in the head as you...hows that?

the world is saved! kim jong il for world president!

[Nova.]

aaaaaand boom..... http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8293934/Seismic-activity-hits-North-Korea

[mashman]

aaaaaand boom..... http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8293934/Seismic-activity-hits-North-Korea

What's the point in trying to blow yourself up... stick it in a missile and throw it over the fence, let's be having some of that world war shit, things are getting boring.

[Nova.]

"North Korea says it has successfully conducted third underground nuclear test"

Interested to see what follows... :corn:

[Road kill]

What's the point in trying to blow yourself up... stick it in a missile and throw it over the fence, let's be having some of that world war shit, things are getting boring.

Things are getting crowded you mean..

[mashman]

Things are getting crowded you mean..

Nah... just too much fuckin around the edges for my liking, selfish cunt that I am. Let's get the party started with some real fireworks and prove just how stupid the extremists are, I mean govts.

[Nova.]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8293934/North-Korea-nuclear-test-sparks-outrage

"New Zealand joined in condemning the nuclear test by North Korea and said it is ready to support "significant action" by the UN Security Council."

For some reason this topic is highly interests me.

[oldrider]

...the North Koreans are as fucked in the head as you...hows that?



the world is saved! kim jong il for world president!

Birds of a feather and all that shit .... :nya:

[Zedder]

Nah... just too much fuckin around the edges for my liking, selfish cunt that I am. Let's get the party started with some real fireworks and prove just how stupid the extremists are, I mean govts.

Yep, but don't forget the China V Japan drama going on about those islands.

The whole region could be way more exciting then...

[mashman]

Yep, but don't forget the China V Japan drama going on about those islands.

The whole region could be way more exciting then...

Is that still happening? Cool. The Chinese make some awesome fireworks.

[superjackal]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

I'd rather the Yanks ruled the roost than the Chinese. Plus, the Americans to this day are the only nation crazy enough to have actually used a nuclear weapon on a civilian population.

Personally, I'm glad for MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). It's worked wonderfully for the last 50 years.

As an aside, I read a cracking bio on Curtis LeMay recently. While he's worthy of some criticism it's Americans like him that preserve our western way of life.

[pzkpfw]

I'd rather the Yanks ruled the roost than the Chinese. Plus, the Americans to this day are the only nation crazy enough to have actually used a nuclear weapon on a civilian population.

Personally, I'm glad for MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). It's worked wonderfully for the last 50 years.

As an aside, I read a cracking bio on Curtis LeMay recently. While he's worthy of some criticism it's Americans like him that preserve our western way of life.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but "crazy enough" seems very subjective.

Seen from the point of view (context) of someone at that time and place I think it was a very rational action.

[Zedder]

Is that still happening? Cool. The Chinese make some awesome fireworks.

Yeah, the latest is Japan reckons China has been targeting Japanese aircraft and ships with weapon guiding radar.

Stupid irriots.

[superjackal]

I agree with most of what you wrote, but "crazy enough" seems very subjective.

Seen from the point of view (context) of someone at that time and place I think it was a very rational action.

Quite right, probably saved more lives than it cost. However, given the lack of understanding of the bomb at the time I think they were more than curious to see what would happen. New toy and all that.

[Swoop]

Yep, but don't forget the China V Japan drama going on about those islands.
Also the Russia Vs Japan incident recently.

[mashman]

Yeah, the latest is Japan reckons China has been targeting Japanese aircraft and ships with weapon guiding radar.

Stupid irriots.

WTF is wrong with a liddle bit of target practice. good job they aren't being targeted by the Americans as they'd likely let loose and find an excuse later.

[Zedder]

Also the Russia Vs Japan incident recently.

Indeed, although not as heated as the Jap and Chinese situation.

[Zedder]

WTF is wrong with a liddle bit of target practice. good job they aren't being targeted by the Americans as they'd likely let loose and find an excuse later.

But they're pissing around, someone needs to get in there and stir it up. The USA is treaty bound to back Japan which means they're hesitant to be involved.

Do you speak Japanese or Chinese by any chance?

[mashman]

But they're pissing around, someone needs to get in there and stir it up. The USA is treaty bound to back Japan which means they're hesitant to be involved.

Do you speak Japanese or Chinese by any chance?

Ooooo that really could be an interesting one then. :rofl: cheers mat, however I don't speak either... although I'm sure there's a few millions of folks out there that could translate for me. Can someone translate "He said he fucked your wife last tuesday, then your son, then your dog and then cleaned his arse with your toothbrush" for me please?

[Zedder]

Ooooo that really could be an interesting one then. :rofl: cheers mat, however I don't speak either... although I'm sure there's a few millions of folks out there that could translate for me. Can someone translate "He said he fucked your wife last tuesday, then your son, then your dog and then cleaned his arse with your toothbrush" for me please?

You're a bloody natural at diplomacy!

[mashman]

You're a bloody natural at diplomacy!

Awwww cheers :shit:. However I could just punch one of them in the face and say that it was from the other guy. Maybe NK could remote me into their nuke systems and allow me to launch a strike against the target of my choice... then Kim Jong would have plausible deniability.

[duckonin]

Do you speak Japanese or Chinese by any chance?

We were just taught Maori !!!! NZ Govt seen to that. Any good ?:msn-wink:

[Zedder]

We were just taught Maori !!!! NZ Govt seen to that. Any good ?:msn-wink:

Nah, a bit useless in this case. Maybe if NZ needs to stop the Cook Islands invading us again though.

[Nova.]

ooh ooh ooh!!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8299336/US-to-take-lead-in-containing-North-Korea



"US President Barack Obama said North Korea’s third nuclear test, in defiance of UN resolutions, was a threat and a provocation and that the United States would lead the world in responding. "

DO IT!!!

[oldrider]

ooh ooh ooh!!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8299336/US-to-take-lead-in-containing-North-Korea



"US President Barack Obama said North Korea’s third nuclear test, in defiance of UN resolutions, was a threat and a provocation and that the United States would lead the world in responding. "

DO IT!!!

Is that the same Barack Obama who said "yes we can" and then showed us all that "no he cant" ? :rolleyes:

[onearmedbandit]

Ooooo that really could be an interesting one then. :rofl: cheers mat, however I don't speak either... although I'm sure there's a few millions of folks out there that could translate for me. Can someone translate "He said he fucked your wife last tuesday, then your son, then your dog and then cleaned his arse with your toothbrush" for me please?

彼はその後、あなたの息子は、その後あなたの犬、その後は私にしてくださいあなたのための歯ブ ラシ"で彼のお尻をきれいにし、前火曜日あなたの妻を犯されたのか。

Actually that's googles version of it. Which should translate to be quite funny.

[scumdog]

They're not confronting America, they're just testing a long range missile that just happens to be pointing towards the US. Stop being such a drama queen.

And then they post a series of clips showing a Yank city being blitzed by an A-bomb - allegedly it depicts a 'dream' a North Korean of some sort had...gee, I wonder what that dream meant? And why did the North Koreans post it...oh, so many questions...so much mystery..:rolleyes:

[scumdog]

when you don't trade in american dollars, or play at the jew-ridden world economoney, you're free to be as "rich" as you like.
they probably mine their own resources and use their domestic labour market, with a good dose of depleted uranium from their ruski-red brothers.
just as well, america needs to be taken down a peg or 12.

Hmm, surprisingly I was expecting something more meaningful from you...oh well, I guess I can live with the disappointment...

[mashman]

彼はその後、あなたの息子は、その後あなたの犬、その後は私にしてくださいあなたのための歯ブ ラシ"で彼のお尻をきれいにし、前火曜日あなたの妻を犯されたのか。

Actually that's googles version of it. Which should translate to be quite funny.

Erm, I may need a recording as my Chinese (or Japanese) reading sucks too... having said that, can I borrow someones iPhone 5 as I'm sure Siri will do the job nicely.

[Berries]

彼はその後、あなたの息子は、その後あなたの犬、その後は私にしてくださいあなたのための歯ブ ラシ"で彼のお尻をきれいにし、前火曜日あなたの妻を犯されたのか。

Actually that's googles version of it. Which should translate to be quite funny.
"Then, to clean his ass with a brush "your teeth for your dog, please me and then afterwards, he is your son, or your wife was fucked before Tuesday."

I don't know, that mashman bloke gets some weird rep comments.

[mashman]

And then they post a series of clips showing a Yank city being blitzed by an A-bomb - allegedly it depicts a 'dream' a North Korean of some sort had...gee, I wonder what that dream meant? And why did the North Koreans post it...oh, so many questions...so much mystery..:rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecPeSmF_ikc

[mashman]

"Then, to clean his ass with a brush "your teeth for your dog, please me and then afterwards, he is your son, or your wife was fucked before Tuesday."

I don't know, that mashman bloke gets some weird rep comments.

Holy shit it works backwards too... that's satanic worship shit right there, gotta be a winner

[Banditbandit]

"Then, to clean his ass with a brush "your teeth for your dog, please me and then afterwards, he is your son, or your wife was fucked before Tuesday."

I don't know, that mashman bloke gets some weird rep comments.

The last bit makes some kind of sense ... if he is your son ... then of course your wife was fucked before Tuesday - no fucking=no son ..

[Edbear]

Hmm, surprisingly I was expecting something more meaningful from you...oh well, I guess I can live with the disappointment...

Nothing like doing a bit of research before posting, eh?

[Swoop]

29 March 2013: After over half a century of threats to again invade South Korea, the world is finally coming to realize that North Korea is bluffing. The northerners have never made good on these intimidation efforts. There have been some minor attacks, like a lot of commando operations in the 1960s, which evolved into kidnapping South Korean and Japanese civilians and landing spies via small submarines. Three years ago a South Korean warship was torpedoed and a South Korean island shelled. There have been a few minor incidents on the DMZ (demilitarized zone that separates the two countries) but that’s it. In short, the threats don’t have much impact and that makes North Korean leaders even angrier because they see their intimidation efforts being ridiculed and, well, ignored.

It gets worse. This year UN officials noted that many of these threats were a violation of international law, but North Korea ignored that and any other criticism of their intimidation efforts. In response, some UN members are trying to limit North Korean participation in UN affairs, this being one of the few punishments left. That makes officials at the North Korean Ministry of Intimidation (an organization that exists under a different name) very nervous. Officials who fail the North Korean leadership are often executed.

Some of the intimidation efforts have been quite bizarre. For example, a common North Korean ploy is to demand gifts and threaten to hurt itself if the gifts do not arrive. This absurd approach to negotiations has become more common since the great famine and economic collapse (because of the withdrawal of Cold War era Russian subsidies) of the 1990s. The "give me your wallet or I'll shoot myself" approach has lost its shock value and is mainly seen as bizarre and unproductive. Many major donors, who have been sending food, medicine, and other supplies to North Korea for over a decade, now refuse to do so after discovering that North Korea steals this aid, sells it on the open market, and pockets the cash. North Korea calls such accusations lies and denounces the accusers, but the evidence of such misbehaviour is extensive.

North Korea loves to play these mind games and has been doing it for decades. South Koreans now find it annoying or even amusing. Despite the declining impact of these intimidation broadcasts, North Korean media continues to broadcast threats against outsiders. Some of the latest ones include reminders that North Korean missiles (a few of them, anyway) can reach American military bases in Guam and Alaska, and a larger number of North Korean missiles can hit U.S. bases in Japan. This has, over the last decade, prompted Japan to invest heavily in anti-missile defence.

The threats do still make a lot of South Koreans nervous. For example, as U.S. troop strength in South Korea continues to shrink, more South Koreans are growing concerned about whether their better trained, led, and equipped forces can defeat another invasion from the north. The American troops have been around for over half a century, and the U.S. has always said it would stand by its South Korean ally. But the numbers tell a different tale. At the end of the Korean War, in 1953, there were over 350,000 U.S. troops in South Korea. Within a year that shrank to 223,000, and by 1955, it was only 85,000. By the mid-60s, it was 63,000. By the mid 70's, there were only 42,000. There it stayed for over two decades. Then came September 11, 2001, and the war on terror. By 2004, the U.S. force in South Korea was down to 37,000. In 2006, that dropped to 30,000 and it is now 28,000. There is fear that the U.S. will cut the American force in South Korea to token (a few thousand troops) size. Meanwhile, more Americans are getting quite vocal about why there should be any U.S. troops in South Korea at all. Enough is enough, and over half a century of paying to supply South Korea with a protective garrison should come to an end.

While North Korea has long maintained a large (over a million personnel) military, these troops are poorly led and equipped and there has been little cash for new equipment or training since the 1990s. In the last two decades the South Koreans have upgraded their own military to the point where it is considered on par with U.S. troops. But decades of threats from North Korea have instilled a degree of fear in South Koreans that cannot be shaken. The farther you are from Korea the more absurd the North Korean threats appear to be. But if you live within range of North Korea rockets or artillery, it’s hard to get a good laugh out of the situation.

[Edbear]

Hasn't North Korea just declared war on the South?

[awa355]

I think that for the Americans, this new leader still has a bit of the unknown factor. He doesn't look to be the brightest kid on the block, but then Hitler looked and acted like a proper dork, and he still did some damage.

The big unknown in this is China. I cant see the chinks letting the USA crawl all over North Korea and digging permanent foxholes.

[Madness]

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/58066_556028661084734_760834929_n.jpg

[Winston001]

Hasn't North Korea just declared war on the South?

Yes but its kinda meaningless. Officially they have been at war since 1953 because there was an Armistice - not a peace treaty.


I think that for the Americans, this new leader still has a bit of the unknown factor. He doesn't look to be the brightest kid on the block...

The big unknown in this is China. I cant see the chinks letting the USA crawl all over North Korea and digging permanent foxholes.

Not a lot known about Kim Jong-un so its hard to predict his thinking. It's believed he was educated in Switzerland so he has a taste for Western ways.

China rather surprisingly recently condemned the North Korean nuclear tests which suggests they have no appetite for military support. From their perspective the Americans already have bases in South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. North Korea wouldn't add much plus it would be a financial drain on the USA.

[Damantis]

North Korea, Iran and Cuba are probably the only places left in the world where the Rosthchilds don't control the central banks.

Coincidence that they are some kind of "threat"?

Just putt'n it out there.

[Jantar]

North Korea, Iran and Cuba are probably the only places left in the world where the Rosthchilds don't control the central banks.

Coincidence that they are some kind of "threat"?

Just putt'n it out there.

You can add Iceland to that list, but I don't see anyone claiming they are a threat.

[Edbear]

You can add Iceland to that list, but I don't see anyone claiming they are a threat.

Shhhh! Doncha know it's a conspiracy for the Rosthchild's to rule the world without anyone realising it? Ireland will keep, first things first... :yes: The West has enough potatoes at the mo.

Kimmy was put there by the CIA to make threats against the USA so the powers behind Obama can push for a reason to invade and plunder North Korea's resources, just like Iraq and Afghanistan... :shutup:

[mashman]

North Korea, Iran and Cuba are probably the only places left in the world where the Rosthchilds don't control the central banks.

Coincidence that they are some kind of "threat"?

Just putt'n it out there.

Could be a coincidence

In the year of 2000 there were seven countries without a Rothschild owned Central Bank:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran

The only countries left in 2003 without a Central Bank owned by the Rothschild Family were:

Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran


You can add Iceland to that list, but I don't see anyone claiming they are a threat.

Similarly Bitcoin (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/cyber-currency-surge-amid-eurozone-060412900.html)...

[Jantar]

Could be a coincidence

In the year of 2000 there were seven countries without a Rothschild owned Central Bank:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran

The only countries left in 2003 without a Central Bank owned by the Rothschild Family were:

Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran



Similarly Bitcoin (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/cyber-currency-surge-amid-eurozone-060412900.html)...

I was a bit suspicious about this claim, but decided to do a bit more research before claiming it to be false. here is a paper debunking the USA side of the claim. http://www.usagold.com/federalreserve.html

Although the Rothschild group do own shares in some of the composition banks they do not have any direct voting power, and only 1/12 of the indirect voting power. How is that control?

I know the Iceland central bank is not owned by them as when Iceland went bankrupt, the Icelandic goverment refused to prop up the banking sytem. The only banking available in Iceland is completely government controlled and without any influence from outside sources.

Then we come to New Zealand. When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?

[mashman]

I was a bit suspicious about this claim, but decided to do a bit more research before claiming it to be false. here is a paper debunking the USA side of the claim. http://www.usagold.com/federalreserve.html

Although the Rothschild group do own shares in some of the composition banks they do not have any direct voting power, and only 1/12 of the indirect voting power. How is that control?

I know the Iceland central bank is not owned by them as when Iceland went bankrupt, the Icelandic goverment refused to prop up the banking sytem. The only banking available in Iceland is completely government controlled and without any influence from outside sources.

Then we come to New Zealand. When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?

Consider owned as pwned... and the links between NZ and the Rot Schilds are there iffen ye go looking for them.

[avgas]

Can someone translate "He said he fucked your wife last tuesday, then your son, then your dog and then cleaned his arse with your toothbrush" for me please?
表决
("Voting")
- This is if you asked for it. e.g. The act of voting

税
("Tax")
- This is if you didn't ask for it but got it anyway. e.g. you received tax

[Jantar]

... and the links between NZ and the Rot Schilds are there iffen ye go looking for them.
I did. The only links I found were from conspiricy theory sites, not a single hard fact. However that doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I didn't find them. So perhaps you can help.

"When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?"

[Akzle]

"When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?"

i don't know that it ever was in so many words, but i can tell you the legislation probably starts with "an instrument of the crown" and given that jews own "the crown" and/or it is a fictitious legal entity, it' entirely probably it's owned by rothsy.

fuckem, who cares. i get to eat bacon.

-edit-
S3 Reserve bank act '64
(3) The Bank may, on behalf of the Government, regulate
and control-
(a) Money, banking, banking transactions, credit, and
currency

indicates that at that point in time money existed. (seperate and different from currency)

from the '89:
(1) There shall continue to be a bank called the Reserve Bank of
New Zealand.
(2) The Bank shall be a body corporate with perpetual succession
and a common seal and shall be capable of acquiring, holding
and disposing of real and personal property and of suing and
being sued.
(3) Without limiting any other provision of this Act, the Bank shall
have the rights, powers, and privileges of a natural person.
(4) The Bank is the same body corporate as that which was continued
in existence by the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act
1964.

huh. the bank = a person.

funny ol thing, this law, innit.

-edit2-

reserve bank created by rba 1933 created under the banking act of the 1908 consolidation.

[mashman]

I did. The only links I found were from conspiricy theory sites, not a single hard fact. However that doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I didn't find them. So perhaps you can help.

"When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?"

As I said. Consider owned as pwned. In regards to conspiracy, start here (http://www.cameronpartners.co.nz/)

[Jantar]

i don't know that it ever was in so many words, but i can tell you the legislation probably starts with "an instrument of the crown" and given that jews own "the crown" and/or it is a fictitious legal entity, it' entirely probably it's owned by rothsy.
.... .

But "The Crown" doesn't own New Zealand. Under New Zealand law "The Crown" is the Parliament of New Zealand. The monarch is merely a figurehead with the right to establish and dis-establish parliament. Are you sure that the Rothschilds own the New zealand parliament?

[Jantar]

As I said. Consider owned as pwned. In regards to conspiracy, start here (http://www.cameronpartners.co.nz/)

Wow! So Cameron Partners is New Zealand's central bank? I thought our Reserve Bank was our central bank.


Cameron Partners is the New Zealand global alliance partner of Rothschild, one of the world’s leading investment banks with offices in 33 countries.

[mashman]

Wow! So Cameron Partners is New Zealand's central bank? I thought our Reserve Bank was our central bank.

I did say start there and it was not a link from a conspiracy site. Pwned remember.

[Jantar]

I did say start there and it was not a link from a conspiracy site. Pwned remember.

It isn't a central bank either. Who is pwned?

Edit: I wouldn't even be suprised to find a Rothchild controlled bank holding shares in BNZ, ANZ and Westpac. But that still isn't control opf our central bank.

[mashman]

It isn't a central bank either. Who is pwned?

Edit: I wouldn't even be suprised to find a Rothchild controlled bank holding shares in BNZ, ANZ and Westpac. But that still isn't control opf our central bank.

Didn't say it was a bank. :rofl: pwned = owned, bitch stylez.

In regards to edit: they're probably part of the MPC, it being made up of senior experienced knowledgeable bankers all under one roof (Camerons?) etc... Yes, probably lends to your conspiracy theory call, however if the Redshields are the experts in banking and the MPC is comprised of senior bankers (a list of whom I can't find, tin foil hat), then I wouldn't say that it'd take a large stretch of the imagination to believe that they were in there.

[Akzle]

But "The Crown" doesn't own New Zealand. Under New Zealand law "The Crown" is the Parliament of New Zealand. The monarch is merely a figurehead with the right to establish and dis-establish parliament.

Are you sure that the Rothschilds own the New zealand parliament?

pre-1) no? who "owns" nz? i think you'll find, under nz "law" the crown claims alloidal title to all land that is "nz" (although, technically not)

while i accept that claiming the highest title by no means construes ownership, the fact that we have thugs in holdens with guns to enforce the crown's claim, kinda keep most people quiet, innit?

1) where did you get that definition?, and who the fuck gave the monarchy that right?

secondarily, the monarchy established the NZ parliamental BS as a colony. since NZ are no longer a colony, it was and is not, in fact, the monarchy responsible for the continuing (defacto) existence of parliament.

2) yes, that sounds about right.

[Jantar]

Could be a coincidence

In the year of 2000 there were seven countries without a Rothschild owned Central Bank:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran

The only countries left in 2003 without a Central Bank owned by the Rothschild Family were:

Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran



Similarly Bitcoin (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/cyber-currency-surge-amid-eurozone-060412900.html)...


Didn't say it was a bank. :rofl: pwned = owned, bitch stylez.

Really? :facepalm:

[mashman]

Wow! So Cameron Partners is New Zealand's central bank? I thought our Reserve Bank was our central bank.


It isn't a central bank either. Who is pwned?


Really? :facepalm:

Stop shifting the goal posts you naughty boy.

[Jantar]

Stop shifting the goal posts you naughty boy.

Sorry, but I'm not the one shifting goal posts - YOU are.

In every post I've made on this topic I have querried the idea that the
The only countries left in 2003 without a Central Bank owned by the Rothschild Family were:

Sudan
Libya
Cuba
North Korea
Iran
I mentioned Iceland, then looked up USA, then New Zealand. So that is at least 3 other countries that should have been on that list. In fact I believe that most countries should be on that list. Instead you tell me to look for YOUR evidence for you. Finally you came up with an obscure merchant bank in New Zealand owned by the Rothschilds.

Now you accuse me of shifting the goal posts? So if the central banks were not the goal posts then what were?

[mashman]

Sorry, but I'm not the one shifting goal posts - YOU are.

In every post I've made on this topic I have querried the idea that the
I mentioned Iceland, then looked up USA, then New Zealand. So that is at least 3 other countries that should have been on that list. In fact I believe that most countries should be on that list. Instead you tell me to look for YOUR evidence for you. Finally you came up with an obscure merchant bank in New Zealand owned by the Rothschilds.

Now you accuse me of shifting the goal posts? So if the central banks were not the goal posts then what were?

Looks like a little miscommunication there along the way. My bad. In regards to evidence and the link I posted, that was in response to you saying the only links you could find where from conspiracy theory sites. As Camerons are made up of senior bankers and the RBNZ MPC takes its advice from senior bankers, is it really that much of a stretch? also I didn't say they were owned by Rothschild.

[avgas]

pre-1) no? who "owns" nz? i think you'll find, under nz "law" the crown claims alloidal title to all land that is "nz" (although, technically not)

while i accept that claiming the highest title by no means construes ownership, the fact that we have thugs in holdens with guns to enforce the crown's claim, kinda keep most people quiet, innit?

1) where did you get that definition?, and who the fuck gave the monarchy that right?

secondarily, the monarchy established the NZ parliamental BS as a colony. since NZ are no longer a colony, it was and is not, in fact, the monarchy responsible for the continuing (defacto) existence of parliament.

2) yes, that sounds about right.
State a legal entry than links "the crown" to "her majesty the queen".
I will think that you will find the 2 are disconnected. As many things were placed under the crown but had nothing to do with the royal family. This was to remove liability from affecting the royal family.
e.g.
Who is the ruling body of this here country?
The crown
So what does it say?
Nothing - it doesn't have a mouth - local body states this.....

It also allowed for something bigger than the royal family itself. More than happy to show you a venn diagram how NZ and the royal family fall under the crown but neither has anything over the other.

This was all brought out in USA, Africa and India when they all had there little Independence yahoos. It is also why the Portuguese and Spanish. USA got around this by "inviting" states to its union. So did EU. Russia claimed it for the motherland. China for the great regime.
All the ones that had "empires" seemed to fail in the long run.

The UK was not the only one to do such things. Argentina also has a "crown". Independent from Queeny dearest. There are others - I just can't recall them.

But I think we should get rid of the crown, and fall on our own accord. It's a silly term that doesn't make any sense. Rename is "the fat kakapo" or something.

[avgas]

"When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?"
Makes me wonder if they would do a better job at it. We have a lovely 90's Japanese economy brewing here.............I will be able to tell my children of the day the rates changed.....and then stopped.......for a decade.

[Damantis]

It's not about who claims to be in control. It's about who is owed the money. And it's about who controls the flow of money. It's about unelected and unnacountable institutions like the Bank of International Settlements, along with the IMF and the "World Bank". All of which have strings pulled by the likes of the Rosthchilds. These institutions virtually pull money out of nowhere to loan to central banks. They fix and manipulate the price of Gold, making millions each day just from Gold transactions. They "own" whoever owes them.

I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but if you look around and check sources for what you can find online about it, it adds up for the most part. Start with the B.I.S. A facinating and frankly quite scary organisation. These are the masters of the world, and they don't give a fuck about anyone or their laughable notions of sovereignty. They won't be happy untill there is one world currency and no borders to get in the way of owning EVERYTHING.

[awa355]

Kimmy flung dung is in big trouble now, :shit:

Wouldn't like to be in his shoes when the Te Mana arrives to kick his arse. :angry:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8491259/NZ-frigate-heading-to-Korean-trouble-zone

[Akzle]

Kimmy flung dung is in big trouble now, :shit:

Wouldn't like to be in his shoes when the Te Mana arrives to kick his arse. :angry:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8491259/NZ-frigate-heading-to-Korean-trouble-zone

nekk minute:

china sinks the boat "accidentally", all hands lost, north koreans blamed, 'MURICA hoo-rah, decalres war on behalf of NZ, we send both our helicopters up, wait, no, they're gone. we send a bunch of guys with muskets up, 'MURICA hoo-rah takes over NK as a base, then "finds out" it was china who sank us and declares war on the reds, re-neg on their debt (which is basically all of it), chine says "you wanna fuck on me" and throws a few nukes over the pacific.
M.A.D.
nuclear winter, the earth resets itself.

[Wingnut]

Kimmy flung dung is in big trouble now, :shit:

Wouldn't like to be in his shoes when the Te Mana arrives to kick his arse. :angry:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8491259/NZ-frigate-heading-to-Korean-trouble-zone

There goes 50% of the countries defense systems..... Why do we bother anyway.

[oldrider]

I did. The only links I found were from conspiricy theory sites, not a single hard fact. However that doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I didn't find them. So perhaps you can help.

"When was our Reserve Bank privatised and sold to the Rothschilds?"

It doesn't have to be because the spirit of the nation is socialist and therefore compliant to Rothschild influence! :mellow:

[oldrider]

It's not about who claims to be in control. It's about who is owed the money. And it's about who controls the flow of money. It's about unelected and unnacountable institutions like the Bank of International Settlements, along with the IMF and the "World Bank". All of which have strings pulled by the likes of the Rosthchilds. These institutions virtually pull money out of nowhere to loan to central banks. They fix and manipulate the price of Gold, making millions each day just from Gold transactions. They "own" whoever owes them.

I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but if you look around and check sources for what you can find online about it, it adds up for the most part. Start with the B.I.S. A facinating and frankly quite scary organisation. These are the masters of the world, and they don't give a fuck about anyone or their laughable notions of sovereignty. They won't be happy untill there is one world currency and no borders to get in the way of owning EVERYTHING.

True! Every country in the world is in debt ... the real questions are, to whom are they in debt and why? :rolleyes:

[Paul in NZ]

You can add Iceland to that list, but I don't see anyone claiming they are a threat.

Sweet Jesus don't rile up Iceland or they will send out Bjork again or worse.... I'm still having horrible flashbacks....

[Winston001]

But "The Crown" doesn't own New Zealand. Under New Zealand law "The Crown" is the Parliament of New Zealand. The monarch is merely a figurehead with the right to establish and dis-establish parliament.

In amongst the leprechaun jumble our verdant Akzle occasionally raises good points - indeed I've blinged him on occasion.

The constitutional position is that all land is owned by the Queen = the Crown. We humble citizens hold lesser estates such as fee simple which we regard as freehold. FYI much land owned in Britain by the Queen, Prince Charles, and various Dukes etc is fee tail - entailed estates. The owners are not able to sell it because the land is entailed to their heirs, they just enjoy the income. Happily NZ has no such estates.

In a constitutional monarchy the actual authority of the Crown lies with the Executive Council which is composed of Cabinet (Her Majesty's Ministers) plus the Governor General. Its not quite a rubber stamp as those of us who remember the Australian GG firing the OZ prime minister Gough Whitlam. And he lost the resulting election.

This underlying Crown/State ownership of all land occurs across all nations to the best of my knowledge. In republican countries it is called eminent domain. The crucial issue is that a government can take away a citizens land for the greater benefit of the people. Building roads, dams, hospitals etc.

Jantar, you may well remember Muldoon's use of the National Development Act 1979 to seize land in the Cromwell Gorge to build the Clyde Dam.

[Akzle]

In amongst the leprechaun jumble our verdant Akzle occasionally raises good points

i make an effort to raise my point at least once daily.


a claim is only as good as you can enforce it.

thus, my claim to be the bad assest motherf*cker stands, until someone either beats me down, or proves me wrong.

the crown (the european empire/ great britain), the world over, in it's colonising days, moved places, made rules, and (generally via taxation and violence) subdued the locals.

consider hong kong and kenya, the east india trading company, australia, and dear ole nuu zullund. (including but not limited to)


i'd like to pretend this rant was heading somewhere, but we all know that isn't the case.

beerbeerbeer.

AKZLE FOR PM!

[Damantis]

True! Every country in the world is in debt ... the real questions are, to whom are they in debt and why? :rolleyes:

http://youtu.be/w5UOZP78O-Q

[mashman]

(In best Bruce Forsyth voice) And what does war make... MONEY!

[Oakie]

Well with the NKs threatening nations to the south and east, I won't actually be surprised if the Chinese in their north-west give them a surprise spanking somehow. They are their erstwhile allies but are an inscrutable and pragmatic bunch.
They would probably rather do that than risk an exchange between Nk and USA which could affect them. Look for a surgical strike on the important bits and then a million Chinese storming accross the border to 'restore order'. They would stop at the 45th parallel.

[mashman]

Well with the NKs threatening nations to the south and east, I won't actually be surprised if the Chinese in their north-west give them a surprise spanking somehow. They are their erstwhile allies but are an inscrutable and pragmatic bunch.
They would probably rather do that than risk an exchange between Nk and USA which could affect them. Look for a surgical strike on the important bits and then a million Chinese storming accross the border to 'restore order'. They would stop at the 45th parallel.

... and maybe the Japanese will take South Korea whilst they're defending their border again the North Koreans. Praps the Nepalese, Bhukanese, Vietnamese and all of the other ese's will join in against the Chinese and we'll have a fuck load of fun. Or not.

[Oakie]

... and maybe the Japanese will take South Korea whilst they're defending their border again the North Koreans. Praps the Nepalese, Bhukanese, Vietnamese and all of the other ese's will join in against the Chinese and we'll have a fuck load of fun. Or not.

Nah. No need once the Chinese make their move. Remember ... you heard it here first.

Actually it sounds a bit like a Tom Clancy novel if you throw in the USA cooperating by parking a sub in the Sea of Japan to do the surgical strike with their cruise missiles because Congress in secret decide they'd rather have China occupying that piece of land than the North Koreans because they are so flakey. China happy because it's good PR for them and the new provence gives them easier access to the lower Pacific where they continue to court the islands of the South Pacific for their deep sea minerals. Dammit ... might even write the book myself!

[Jantar]

....Jantar, you may well remember Muldoon's use of the National Development Act 1979 to seize land in the Cromwell Gorge to build the Clyde Dam.
I certainly do. It was seized by the Crown under the public works act of the day. Ownership was then vested in the Crown, and nominally that is the Monarch, but in fact is Parliament. However it was later sold to Contact energy, and it wasn't sold by the Monarch, but by the Minister of lands and the Minister of SOEs. The Governor General, who is the Monarch's representitive didn't even factor in the sale.

[nudemetalz]

Want a laugh....

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYrCei02TaI

Go to 1:49, most of the guns (including front ones) are toys and don't even fire....cool propaganda, NK peoples...

Hmm,...I reckon a couple of A-10s would take out these 1950's trench warfare imperialists and problem solved.

[Akzle]

I certainly do. It was seized by the Crown under the public works act of the day. Ownership was then vested in the Crown, and nominally that is the Monarch, but in fact is Parliament. However it was later sold to Contact energy, and it wasn't sold by the Monarch, but by the Minister of lands and the Minister of SOEs. The Governor General, who is the Monarch's representitive didn't even factor in the sale.

i'll give you an hint, since you seem determined not to look it up.

"The Crown in right on New Zealand" is a company registered in the US.

[mashman]

Nah. No need once the Chinese make their move. Remember ... you heard it here first.

Actually it sounds a bit like a Tom Clancy novel if you throw in the USA cooperating by parking a sub in the Sea of Japan to do the surgical strike with their cruise missiles because Congress in secret decide they'd rather have China occupying that piece of land than the North Koreans because they are so flakey. China happy because it's good PR for them and the new provence gives them easier access to the lower Pacific where they continue to court the islands of the South Pacific for their deep sea minerals. Dammit ... might even write the book myself!

Get a writin and make sure there's a happy ending :yes: ya know, missiles flying through the air and leaders frantically hitting the abort button only to find that they have had them overridden by a stoned hacker.

[imdying]

Well with the NKs threatening nations to the south and east, I won't actually be surprised if the Chinese in their north-west give them a surprise spanking somehow. They are their erstwhile allies but are an inscrutable and pragmatic bunch.I expect this is why they've started to tow the line on agreeing to more UN sancitons; they can see where this is going, and they'd rather it was them going in to 'liberate' the place, rather than the USA.

[Zedder]

Get a writin and make sure there's a happy ending :yes: ya know, missiles flying through the air and leaders frantically hitting the abort button only to find that they have had them overridden by a stoned hacker.

Don't forget the bit where the hacker, just for good measure, reroutes the entire funds of the global banking system to the coffers of the Catholic Church...

[Akzle]

would you like a game of global thermo nuclear war?

[Oakie]

Well they sure do have a lot of air force bases: http://cryptome.org/eyeball/nk-mil-air/nk-mil-air.htm

[Swoop]

3 April 2013: Over the last few years more details have leaked about South Korean and U.S. plans for what they will do when the government in North Korea collapses. This sort of planning has become a lot more detailed in the last decade and more attention has been paid to discovering the “unexpected” situations before troops on the ground have to deal with them.

Four years ago South Korea made public that if North Korea attacked, South Korea was prepared to go north and do whatever needed to be done. This is no surprise to those who have been observing the South Korean armed forces development since the end of the Cold War in 1991. During the same time the North Korean armed forces have declined because of a bankrupt economy and no money for replacing obsolete equipment or for training. Meanwhile, the booming economy in the south led to the growth of domestic arms industry and the re-equipping the South Korean military with modern, and locally made, weapons.

South Korea has nearly completed a 15 year plan to transform their army from a large force of conscripts, to a smaller, high tech force containing many more, higher paid, volunteers. The south sees this, the "American approach," as superior and proven. Over the last two decades South Korea has developed, and produced in large numbers, their own versions of the U.S. M-1 tank (the South Korean K-1 and K-2), the U.S. M-2 Infantry Fighting Vehicle (the South Korean K-21), the U.S. M-109 self-propelled 155mm howitzer (the South Korean K-9), and much more. South Korea used the American equipment as models and then built on that. South Korea also manufactures an Aegis destroyer (the KDX III class), a new class of frigate (FFK), and a light fighter/trainer jet (the T-50). All this provided South Korea with a decisive military edge over its aggressive northern neighbour.

The southern generals believe that the North Korean military is in terminal decline. Over a decade of famine and extreme poverty has caused severe reductions in maintenance and training in the North Korean military. This has sharply lowered the combat capabilities of the northern force. Corruption and poverty has increased corruption and insubordination up north.

In response to all that, South Korea staff officers quietly began drawing up plans on how they would move into the north. This would happen either in response to an attack from the north or a collapse of the communist police state government up there. In either case it would be a combined military and humanitarian mission. Wargaming out the many possible scenarios made it clear that intelligence would be a major problem because North Korea has been a closed society for 60 years and the U.S. and South Korea have very few informants up there. This has led to several highly classified programs for quickly getting intelligence operatives on the ground up there and keeping them alive. There are also several new tactics for using food and other supplies to quickly win over the North Korean population.

Although most North Koreans now know their government has been lying to them about the outside world, and that life is much better in South Korea, because North Koreans are brainwashed from birth, some will still not welcome the southerners as liberators. South Korea is not making this stuff up, as they have over 24,000 North Koreans who escaped to South Korea, most of them in the last decade. These North Koreans give details about how people think and are likely to react during a collapse up north. Given the food and other shortages up there since the 1990s, any aid will be much appreciated and likely fought over. South Korean troops have to be combat ready but also prepared for relief work and peacekeeping.

There are far fewer roads in the north than in the south and less infrastructure in general. There is also the possibility of Chinese troops coming in as well. China has apparently made plans to annex North Korea, or set up a very pro-China government. But while that is being sorted out the more immediate needs of caring for North Korean civilians and fighting any die hard North Korean soldiers has to be attended to, as well as securing nuclear and conventional weapons storage areas.

While the collapse of the North Korean government may lead to war with China, it will definitely lead to one of the most challenging peacekeeping operations ever.

[mashman]

Don't forget the bit where the hacker, just for good measure, reroutes the entire funds of the global banking system to the coffers of the Catholic Church...

That's a bit Die Hardesque for my liking... then again, if tastefully done it could work well.

[Zedder]

That's a bit Die Hardesque for my liking... then again, if tastefully done it could work well.

Yippee-ki-yay...

[Winston001]

While the collapse of the North Korean government may lead to war with China, it will definitely lead to one of the most challenging peacekeeping operations ever.

Faarrgg war with China? Nobody - nobody wants that. It isn't a minor issue. Peacekeeping is purely theoretical if China feels threatened.

[Zedder]

Faarrgg war with China? Nobody - nobody wants that. It isn't a minor issue. Peacekeeping is purely theoretical if China feels threatened.

Interestingly enough, I read China itself is calling for restraint all round and the US in turn is asking them to apply pressure on North Korea to be sensible given their strong relationship.

China then, doesn't appear to have much of a warlike stance on the situation at all but rather a softer approach.

[Akzle]

Faarrgg war with China? Nobody - nobody wants that. It isn't a minor issue. Peacekeeping is purely theoretical if China feels threatened.

the us does. Then they can write off the debt, fix the economoney, and fund their next occupation.

[Swoop]

4 April 2013: The mythical North Korean “Ministry of Intimidation” is working overtime to come up with new threats each day. The government is using these threats mainly to create tension inside North Korea and more support for new ruler Kim Jong Un. This is essential this time of year, because the food shortages are always worst just before new crops are planted. But it’s also the time of year when it gets warmer and the days are longer. This is a big deal because of the growing electricity shortages.

This sort of drama in North Korea is nothing new, but it’s never been played this hard and long before. This theatre always has a happy ending, with the third act featuring an imaginary victory for North Korea but no real change for anyone. It is all theatre, backed up by the threat of violence that never becomes real.

This time North Korea has got the word’s attention to an extent never seen before. For most of the planet this is all entertainment, but for most North Koreans it’s their lives and when all the shouting is done most North Koreans are still cold, hungry and in the dark without real prospects of much of a future. Spectacular theatrics can only do so much. The really important issue is what North Korean leaders do after the curtain comes down. What happens after the show is over. To actually go to war would be suicidal for the North Korean leadership. Most of them know that, but in the last few years more and more of them have been making preparations to flee the country. These theatrics only delay the continued decline of the economy and government ability to control the increasingly restive population. In the last year the government has promised spectacular improvements in the economy. This did not happen. Creating a state of war with the neighbours will not reverse that failure and North Koreans will still be hungry and poor when all the artificial anger and angst dissipates. The world can only wait to see how this plays out.

As in the past, what North Korea wants is more money, food and other aid from South Korea and other wealthy nations. The North Korean threats don’t feature this angle, but it’s in the small print. In effect, its extortion as in’ “if you want us to shut up, pay up.” While there is still disagreement in the North Korean leadership about how to fix the decrepit North Korean economy, it’s agreed that lots of free food, fuel, cash and other aid would help a great deal.

If North Korea does attack, it is expected to be small scale stuff. This might include attacks (like torpedoing an American or South Korean warship) that the north could deny. If the U.S. or South Korea reacted violently to these small attacks North Korea could then declare itself the victim of unprovoked aggression and demand that the UN halt the violence and help North Korea obtain compensation.

Over the last few days many North Korean military units put on alert (meaning more busy work and less sleep) have been taken off and gone back to their usual duties (growing food or working in factories plus training that did not involve using up fuel or spare parts).

The North Korean government is doing more local stuff to improve morale. It was recently announced that the best universities would no longer automatically accept children of the ruling elite but that admittance would be open to everyone according to their abilities, not their family background. About ten percent of North Koreans are much better off than everyone else up there. These people work for the bureaucracy, military or security agencies, and their families are considered “loyal”.
Most of the rest of the population are considered members of historically “disloyal” families.

The new admissions policy is a major change in the class politics that has long characterized social and economic mobility in the north. This is meant to make Kim Jong Un appear to be a reformer and someone the unhappy North Koreans can trust.

[Kermit250]

Where are you getting this from??? It's good reading anyway :niceone:

[Road kill]

Where are you getting this from??? It's good reading anyway :niceone:

Out of his hip pocket like everybody else.:tugger:

[oldrider]

Kim Jong Un is a new broom and has to find a new party trick to capture the imagination of his people and re-establish a reason to be loyal to him!

There are very few options left open to him, he either has to feed his people or show them a reason to continue with the status quo!

Like in a school yard confrontation ... either throw a punch or walk away because if you don't the crowd will lose interest and forget you.

I think someone else has more interest in keeping him going in this direction than he has. :shifty: I smell big money interests! :corn:

[puddytat]

On a lighter note....

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QiBNV5EUo3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Swoop]

Out of his hip pocket like everybody else.:tugger:
Perhaps you would like to educate us mere plebs, on the geo-political situation in North Korea, using information that comes from other sources apart from tvnz "news" or Seven Sharp, please.

There's a good chap.

[mashman]

I guess they haven't paid the bill

http://en.es-static.us/upl/2013/04/North_Korea_South_korea_12-24-2012.jpg

[nudemetalz]

What's the lights in the Yellow Sea?

[Nova.]

What's the lights in the Yellow Sea?

Lights, probably. :killingme

[mashman]

What's the lights in the Yellow Sea?

Dunno. Ships maybe? Rigs? Aliems?

[awa355]

I;ve always wondered where Alantis was:not:

[pete376403]

Squid boats. The light attracts the squid to the surface

[mashman]

I;ve always wondered where Alantis was:not:

Antarctica.


Squid boats. The light attracts the squid to the surface

dats a lot of squid boats

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=mashman;1130528581]Antarctica.



Charles Hapgood's Earth Crustal Displacement/Polar Shift hypothesis by the look of that Masho...

[avgas]

Antarctica.
Nah can't be there. There are more climate scientists there proving global warming exists then there are fixing it.
And when have climate scientists missed something obvious?

[mashman]

Charles Hapgood's Earth Crustal Displacement/Polar Shift hypothesis by the look of that Masho...

Aye... bloody interesting theory.

[mashman]

Nah can't be there. There are more climate scientists there proving global warming exists then there are fixing it.
And when have climate scientists missed something obvious?

I thought they were observing Nibiru.

:rofl: they say that palm trees grew on Antarctica.

[ellipsis]

I thought they were observing Nibiru.

:rofl: they say that palm trees grew on Antarctica.

...where did the big brown factor from our distantly past future go?...wrong chronological order again, or have they been and gone, just after the Oscars...I must have been busy or something...:weep:

[mashman]

...where did the big brown factor from our distantly past future go?...wrong chronological order again, or have they been and gone, just after the Oscars...I must have been busy or something...:weep:

:rofl: I wish I knew. Some say it's in the Oort cloud. Some say it's between Jupiter and Mars. Some say it's clocked off of the starboard bow. Either way, I wish it'd make an appearance in some form or another.

[caseye]

Hummm, I'm thinking a nice pretty coloured glass car park about where North Korea is right now, should enhance the worlds prospects no end.
Little shit needs taking down a peg or three.

[Zedder]

I thought they were observing Nibiru.

:rofl: they say that palm trees grew on Antarctica.

Based on available data, I'd go with the palms in Antarctica scenario rather than Hapgood though.

[mashman]

Based on available data, I'd go with the palms in Antarctica scenario rather than Hapgood though.

I kinda like the expanding Earth theory... although I've no preference really. As you allude to the prevailing theory may well change over time. Be interesting to know though and I'd wee myself if it were a combination of all.

[Zedder]

I kinda like the expanding Earth theory... although I've no preference really. As you allude to the prevailing theory may well change over time. Be interesting to know though and I'd wee myself if it were a combination of all.

It's interesting stuff indeed although unfortunately for Hapgood and Carey, there's no scientific evidence to support their theories.

Back to North Korea V America: I pick America to win by 5 runs in the second innings...

[Swoop]

Little shit needs taking down a peg or three.
Interestingly he is being led by his advisors (political and military) at the moment. The question remains what will he be like when he is comfortable in the new position and really knows how to run things?

[Oakie]

I wonder if Ban Ki Moon has Chuck Norris on speed dial?

[mashman]

It's interesting stuff indeed although unfortunately for Hapgood and Carey, there's no scientific evidence to support their theories.

Back to North Korea V America: I pick America to win by 5 runs in the second innings...

There never is until it happens... then I reckons a fair number of us are i the shit.

Nah, I reckon it'll go the distance and the US will score in extra time and win on the golden goal rule.

[Zedder]

I wonder if Ban Ki Moon has Chuck Norris on speed dial?

Nah, it hasn't heated up enough to even interest Chuck yet.

[Zedder]

There never is until it happens... then I reckons a fair number of us are i the shit.

Nah, I reckon it'll go the distance and the US will score in extra time and win on the golden goal rule.

But will China call time-out before that?

[mashman]

But will China call time-out before that?

I wonder if they'll get the chance. By all accounts PyingPyong could lob missiles over the fence at any given point in time. Wonder if the US public will get pissy with Obama if they wade in to the fight?

[Jantar]

should Guam get hit then the uS public would get upset with Obama if he didn't get into the fight.

[mashman]

should Guam get hit then the uS public would get upset with Obama if he didn't get into the fight.

Should Guam be hit it would be an exceptional shot given what they say about NK's missile reliability.

[Zedder]

I wonder if they'll get the chance. By all accounts PyingPyong could lob missiles over the fence at any given point in time. Wonder if the US public will get pissy with Obama if they wade in to the fight?

The US would be better off supporting China in hastening the downfall of North Korea plus assauging Chinese fears about any American forces being in the region.

[pete376403]

China likes the idea of a NK buffer zone between China and SK, Japan, etc.

IMHO if Kim family Industries get too out of control China will remove them and install another puppet. But they (China) probably like them (NK) keeping the west on edge a bit.

[mashman]

The US would be better off supporting China in hastening the downfall of North Korea plus assauging Chinese fears about any American forces being in the region.

True they would. But who has the stronger relationship with SK? and who wants a bank in NK :shifty:? I can see the US going for it to create a single Korea.

[Zedder]

True they would. But who has the stronger relationship with SK? and who wants a bank in NK :shifty:? I can see the US going for it to create a single Korea.

I got the impression China has had enough of North Korean stupidity plus they've been propping them up economically for ages which is probably a sore point.

Anyway, the US Secretary of State is heading over to China for "a chat" about it all shortly which will be interesting.

[Hinny]

True they would. But who has the stronger relationship with SK? and who wants a bank in NK :shifty:? I can see the US going for it to create a single Korea.

Time flies but it doesn't seem that long ago when we saw the leaders of North & South Korea in talks over reunification and the opening of the borders. Family reunions making for great television.
The US appeared to be really pissed at the idea of reunification.
I believe Nth. Korean sabre rattling is in response to the actions started by the US back then and consistently ramped up since.
With the US withdrawal from Iraq and the winding down of operations in Afghanistan the US Military/Industrial complex needs a new theatre of war. They have been promoting this theatre for a long time.
UN approval to engage in military actions against Nth. Korea would ensure its financial viability. Along the lines of George Bush 1's adventure into Kuwait. Have the world pay to expand your business interests. As Bush said of that conflict "It's about jobs, American jobs".

[Swoop]

China likes the idea of a NK buffer zone between China and SK, Japan, etc.

But they (China) probably like them (NK) keeping the west on edge a bit.

China is the interesting player in this drama and it will be interesting to see how involved they get.
China is also doing interesting things in Africa. Spending ten billion dollars on a new port in Tanzania (along with road and rail infrastructure), to support the chinese industry with raw resources. Conveniently getting berthing rights for military vessels in the deal...

[Oakie]

China is the interesting player in this drama and it will be interesting to see how involved they get.
China is also doing interesting things in Africa. Spending ten billion dollars on a new port in Tanzania (along with road and rail infrastructure), to support the chinese industry with raw resources. Conveniently getting berthing rights for military vessels in the deal...

And closer to home, they're doing a bit in Rarotonga such as building the Justice Dept building.

[ellipsis]

China is the interesting player in this drama and it will be interesting to see how involved they get.
China is also doing interesting things in Africa. Spending ten billion dollars on a new port in Tanzania (along with road and rail infrastructure), to support the chinese industry with raw resources. Conveniently getting berthing rights for military vessels in the deal...


...and in between getting all that shit together they supplied me with a motor I have tried to, but cant, blow up...

[Zedder]

Resistance is futile...

[mashman]

I got the impression China has had enough of North Korean stupidity plus they've been propping them up economically for ages which is probably a sore point.

Anyway, the US Secretary of State is heading over to China for "a chat" about it all shortly which will be interesting.

I still having trouble seeing China getting involved for some reason, beyond politics that is. Probably find the UN will get dragged into it at some point. Wonder how concerned China would be that NK could quite easily lob a few missiles over their fence?


Time flies but it doesn't seem that long ago when we saw the leaders of North & South Korea in talks over reunification and the opening of the borders. Family reunions making for great television.
The US appeared to be really pissed at the idea of reunification.
I believe Nth. Korean sabre rattling is in response to the actions started by the US back then and consistently ramped up since.
With the US withdrawal from Iraq and the winding down of operations in Afghanistan the US Military/Industrial complex needs a new theatre of war. They have been promoting this theatre for a long time.
UN approval to engage in military actions against Nth. Korea would ensure its financial viability. Along the lines of George Bush 1's adventure into Kuwait. Have the world pay to expand your business interests. As Bush said of that conflict "It's about jobs, American jobs".

Who is it that calls for sanctions against country's? Is it the UN? I know what you mean about the US needing a new war, but thought they would be gearing for a push into Africa to chase down the "terrorists". Once upon a time I used to think wars were fought for freedom, funny that we grow up and realise that wars are fought over resources and money. Wonder what resources NK have?

[awa355]

I still having trouble seeing China getting involved for some reason, beyond politics that is. Probably find the UN will get dragged into it at some point. Wonder how concerned China would be that NK could quite easily lob a few missiles over their fence?

Once upon a time I used to think wars were fought for freedom, funny that we grow up and realise that wars are fought over resources and money. Wonder what resources NK have?

Even NK wouldn't be stupid enough to kick China in the knees.

Wars are fought to keep the American ( and others) economy going.

Resources?, NK has 'Human Enriched' natural resources. ie; over populated, under fed.

[mashman]

Even NK wouldn't be stupid enough to kick China in the knees.

Wars are fought to keep the American ( and others) economy going.

Resources?, NK has 'Human Enriched' natural resources. ie; over populated, under fed.

You wouldn't have thought so, but what if they're getting their arse kicked?

Sickening eh.

Wonder why they never organised themselves any better than they have? Just another useless leader I guess.

[Swoop]

..........
281230

[Banditbandit]

http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/when-i-said-nuke-the-chinese.jpg

[Hinny]

I still having trouble seeing China getting involved for some reason, beyond politics that is. Probably find the UN will get dragged into it at some point. Wonder how concerned China would be that NK could quite easily lob a few missiles over their fence?



Who is it that calls for sanctions against country's? Is it the UN? I know what you mean about the US needing a new war, but thought they would be gearing for a push into Africa to chase down the "terrorists". Once upon a time I used to think wars were fought for freedom, funny that we grow up and realise that wars are fought over resources and money. Wonder what resources NK have?

I can't see any beef between China and North Korea. China is giving aid.
The beef is with the US.
My reading of the news we have had over the years is that given a more sympathetic treatment by the US, or no involvement at all, then a reunited Korea would have been a distinct possibility by now.
The Masters of War that had George Bush 2 doing his dastardly deeds are no doubt still in power.They need a new war.
They have invested a lot of time and money promoting Nth. Korea as a country to invade.
The payment for any war will ideally come from the rest of the world as in the first Persion Gulf War. Sanctioned by the UN the rest of the world paid for that one.
It was good business.
But as we saw with Bush Jnr. those that profit from war are not averse to making the American public pay for it if they can't get UN backing for their enterprises.
Any invasion by the US, and a 'Coalition of the Willing', without United Nations sanction would be financially reckless.
Under the provisions of the Geneva and Hague conventions they would be considered an occupying power and would therefore be responsible for all the costs of maintaining and restoring government, education and other services for the people of North Korea.
Like in Iraq .......... - Tui moment.

What I would like to see is the rest of the world getting some of the dozens of UN resolutions against Israel enforced.
This won't happen because of the involvement of the US. No prizes for guessing who controls the US.
If a portion of the aid given to Israel was redirected to the starving people of North Korea then their Nuclear programme would probably not have been given legs.
Time in reign in these Dogs of War.
Time to step back from the brink of war, to not prematurely or unnecessarily risk the costs of worldwide nuclear war where even the fruits of victory would be ashes in their mouths.

[mashman]

I can't see any beef between China and North Korea. China is giving aid.
The beef is with the US.
My reading of the news we have had over the years is that given a more sympathetic treatment by the US, or no involvement at all, then a reunited Korea would have been a distinct possibility by now.
The Masters of War that had George Bush 2 doing his dastardly deeds are no doubt still in power.They need a new war.
They have invested a lot of time and money promoting Nth. Korea as a country to invade.
The payment for any war will ideally come from the rest of the world as in the first Persion Gulf War. Sanctioned by the UN the rest of the world paid for that one.
It was good business.
But as we saw with Bush Jnr. those that profit from war are not averse to making the American public pay for it if they can't get UN backing for their enterprises.
Any invasion by the US, and a 'Coalition of the Willing', without United Nations sanction would be financially reckless.
Under the provisions of the Geneva and Hague conventions they would be considered an occupying power and would therefore be responsible for all the costs of maintaining and restoring government, education and other services for the people of North Korea.
Like in Iraq .......... - Tui moment.

What I would like to see is the rest of the world getting some of the dozens of UN resolutions against Israel enforced.
This won't happen because of the involvement of the US. No prizes for guessing who controls the US.
If a portion of the aid given to Israel was redirected to the starving people of North Korea then their Nuclear programme would probably not have been given legs.
Time in reign in these Dogs of War.
Time to step back from the brink of war, to not prematurely or unnecessarily risk the costs of worldwide nuclear war where even the fruits of victory would be ashes in their mouths.

heh... War, it's for the people's own good that leaders who don't toe the line should be removed irrespective of cost. They've had weapons for decades, so what has changed to make NK more of a threat? What is it that NK want? I've had a hunt and I've not found a single thing. At least they used the excuse of WMD for Iraq... which oddly enough turned out to be incorrect and was really just an oil grab. So why is it that North Korea have become so unpopular with the West? These questions are never asked. Unwavering trust that TPTB know what they're doing and aren't going to war just for the sake of the economy and to line a few people's pockets.

[Hinny]

heh... War, it's for the people's own good that leaders who don't toe the line should be removed irrespective of cost. They've had weapons for decades, so what has changed to make NK more of a threat? What is it that NK want? I've had a hunt and I've not found a single thing. At least they used the excuse of WMD for Iraq... which oddly enough turned out to be incorrect and was really just an oil grab. So why is it that North Korea have become so unpopular with the West? These questions are never asked. Unwavering trust that TPTB know what they're doing and aren't going to war just for the sake of the economy and to line a few people's pockets.

US actions have made North Korea unhappy. Their behaviour is reactionary. Why the US have adopted the line they have is open to conjecture. They certainly did not want a reunified Korea. The US propaganda flying around is a rerun of that seen before the Persian Gulf War and what we see about Iran as well.

[Jantar]

June 25th 1950. North Korea attcked South Korea without provacation and the Korean war began. The United Nations stepped in to repel the north, and was assisted by, inter alia, USA and New Zealand.

That war has never ended. Although a truce was agreed to, the war still continues today.

In recent years North Korea has shelled the south. they have sunk a South Korean boat, and continue to make threats. Yet somehow USA has upset North Korea? Yeah right.

[Oakie]

In recent years North Korea has shelled the south. they have sunk a South Korean boat, and continue to make threats. Yet somehow USA has upset North Korea? Yeah right.

And I believe they placed a bomb on a South Korean airliner killing all those aboard a few years back.

[Hinny]

June 25th 1950. North Korea attcked South Korea without provacation and the Korean war began. The United Nations stepped in to repel the north, and was assisted by, inter alia, USA and New Zealand.

That war has never ended. Although a truce was agreed to, the war still continues today.

In recent years North Korea has shelled the south. they have sunk a South Korean boat, and continue to make threats. Yet somehow USA has upset North Korea? Yeah right.

So, you don't recall the reunification talks and the opening of the borders?
If you do, then do you also recall who instigated those talks?

Do you recall the reason for US talks with Nth. Korea that led to the Koreans carrying out their threat to develop Nucleur weapons. (If in fact they have.)
What is the reason for US intransigence.
What did the Koreans want?
Food aid?
The right to trade?
... or are you saying the US had no involvement - it is totally one-sided, a continuation of the war that has never ended?

[Swoop]

I can't see any beef between China and North Korea. China is giving aid.
There is another indicator. Chinese aid had vastly diminished in quantity.
Why?
Because they are sick of their donations being stolen by the dictatorship and sold (quite blatantly) to fund their lifestyle/s. NGO aid organisations are doing the same.

China's warning NOT to test their latest nuke went unheeded and that changes the game quite somewhat.

What is for sure is that China does not want a reunified Korea (under democratic rule) on its border.

[BigAl]

281386

10mfchars

[Swoop]

The Glorious Leader hasn't been seen for two weeks and now Psy has released a new song (Gentlemen).
I wonder if there is a link here...:scratch:

[Oakie]

The Glorious Leader hasn't been seen for two weeks and now Psy has released a new song (Gentlemen).
I wonder if there is a link here...:scratch:

No they've never been seen together. Are they one and the same person?!

[Hinny]

There is another indicator. Chinese aid had vastly diminished in quantity.
Why?
Because they are sick of their donations being stolen by the dictatorship and sold (quite blatantly) to fund their lifestyle/s. NGO aid organisations are doing the same.

China's warning NOT to test their latest nuke went unheeded and that changes the game quite somewhat.

What is for sure is that China does not want a reunified Korea (under democratic rule) on its border.

Where do you get this information?
I'm beginning to wonder if you have links to the US propaganda agency.
You are a hive of information ... from the public domain?

[Swoop]

Mr Hinny, this information is from an independent int. source and not from military or "propaganda" sources. The bullshit vomited out via our "media" is pathetic, so this information I believe is of more relevance.


15 April 2013: North Korea is again running one of its big extortion campaigns against the rest of the world. This is the biggest and boldest yet, with threats of nuclear weapon armed missiles being fired at Japan and other enemies. All this media theatre has more impact the further you get from North Korea. In the two Koreas it is pretty much business as usual. The planting season has begun in the north and that has ended the token military mobilizations (used as a media event to scare the foreigners).
Most troops are now doing what they normally do this time of year, help with growing food. North Korea desperately needs this food, especially since reforms (incentives for farmers) in the last year appear to have worked and increased production a little bit. That’s remarkable considering the growing fuel, fertilizer and other shortages farmers have to deal with. The weather has been bad in many parts of the country for the last two years and there has been a noticeable increase in starvation related deaths and illness. Scaring foreigners does not help much if you are very hungry.

The implicit message in all the North Korean threats is that if someone offers some free food and fuel the aggressive messages would disappear. No one has stepped up and China has apparently quietly threatened cuts in aid if the North Korean don’t quiet down. As these campaigns go, they usually end abruptly with the northerners declaring some kind of victory and that’s it. While it would be nice if all this theatre produced some free stuff from fearful foreigners, Kim Jong Un could win inside North Korea without getting a payoff from the foreigners, because he has shown his henchmen that the new boss can work the foreign media even more adroitly than daddy or grandpa.

China is angry at all this North Korean theatre.
The current barrage of threats from North Korea is upsetting Chinese trading partners and is bad for business. North Korean actions have caused a massive amount of international media speculation and FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). While this is not much of a problem for China, which strictly controls its own media, it forces politicians in nations with a free press to respond to their anxious voters. This can lead to decisions that are not favourable for China.

The most unfavourable decision would be for Japan and South Korea to develop nuclear weapons. Both could do so quickly and would complicate Chinese foreign policy. Currently, Chinese diplomacy is backed up by the fact that China has nukes and that limits how far other nations can go in threatening China. That works both ways and China tries to maintain reasonably good relations with South Korea and Japan because both nations are trading partners and tension and threats are bad for business. China may be a communist police state, but the leadership remains in power only because they keep the economy growing. The neighbours know this, and have not felt compelled to go through the political, economic and diplomatic hassle of building their own nuclear weapons capability. But the current hysteria could force Japan and South Korea to go nuclear. China would lose a diplomatic edge and there would be an increase in the risk of someone actually using nukes.

China does not like to publicly criticize an ally and has been low-key in its public comments to North Korea over the current unpleasantness. But China has other ways to send a Shit-o-gram to the Boy General (one of the official nicknames for Kim Jong Un). China has ordered its Internet media operatives to say what they think about the Boy General. As a result popular Chinese Internet personalities are saying what the government prefers not to say (that Kim Jong Un is a fat little dork, asshole, maniac or whatever). Chinese Internet commentators are often local celebrities who are allowed to spout on their website or microblog (the tightly controlled Chinese version of Twitter) as long as they do not say anything the government censors do not approve of. The Chinese people understand how this works and know which blog posts are crap and which are sincere. The jabs at the Boy General are largely sincere, with the posters saying what a lot of Chinese think about North Korea.

Yet China is unwilling, or unable, to actually replace Kim Jong Un. Since the Cold War (and Russian subsidies that kept the North Korean economy afloat) ended in 1991 China has picked up some of the slack. China has become unhappy with the incompetent leadership in North Korea as the Kim dynasty refuses to undergo the kind of economic reform that has kept the Chinese Communists comfortably in power. Staging a coup in North Korea has always been a possibility but the paranoid (for good reason in this case) North Korean leadership has made it difficult for China to recruit enough North Korean officials to make this feasible. That said, the potential is still there and China could still go this route.

Many North Koreans believe that the Chinese will take over if it appears that the North Korean government is about to fall apart. The Chinese plan to install pro-Chinese North Koreans as head of a new "North Korean" government, and institute the kind of economic reforms they have been urging the North Korean to undertake for over a decade.
The Chinese do not want North Korea to merge with South Korea, nor do they want North Korea to collapse (and send millions of starving refugees into northern China). China and South Korea both want North Korea to stay independent, and harmless. Thus China is willing to unofficially annex North Korea, knowing that the South Koreans would go along with this as long as the fiction of North Korean independence was maintained. South Korea won't admit this, but most South Koreans know that absorbing North Korea would put a big dent in South Korean living standards. That is more unpopular than any other outcome. While all Koreans would like a united Korea, far fewer are willing to pay the price.

The North Korean government has ordered a crackdown on the use of USB memory sticks to bring in Chinese and South Korean movies and TV shows. Many North Korean families have inexpensive Chinese DVD players (which are still legal) that have a USB port. Police have been ordered to go door-to-door to find homes with these DVD players and disable the USB capabilities. After that is done a sticker is placed over the USB port indicating that the change has been made. Police are making lots of money selling the stickers without altering the USB port.

April 14, 2013: Chinese leaders told visiting American senior officials that the two countries will cooperate to persuade North Korea to halt its nuclear weapons program. There was no mention of exactly what China would do but the implication is that the Chinese would do more to get North Korea to behave and they would do some of it in cooperation with the United States. This could be a big help to American intelligence, because North Korea is the strictest police states on the planet. Establishing an espionage network there has always been extremely difficult and apparently the Americans are highly dependent on South Korea, and now China, for better intel on what is going on inside North Korea.

China has always had the best espionage network because China came to the aid of North Korea in 1950 after the North Korean invasion of South Korea backfired. Ever since then China has been a major trading partner and some Chinese were able to move about more freely than any other foreigners (even the Russians, who kept North Korea solvent until 1991). North Korea will occasionally crack down on Chinese inside North Korea (especially those engaged in illegal stuff) but has not kept Chinese out of the country.

The Chinese government regularly questions Chinese who have been in North Korea and has gathered an enormous quantity of data on what is going on. South Korea, by virtue of the steady stream of North Korean refugees (25,000 since 1953, most of them in the last decade) reaching South Korea, and the ability to communicate with the several hundred thousand North Korean refugees living in northeast China has also compiled a lot of useful stuff. The U.S. has access to the South Korean network, but China has not been so accommodating. If that has changed, the Americans are now in a better position to cope with whatever new insanity the North Koreans might create.

One question U.S. intel experts would like to answer is the degree to which Russian (and Chinese) missile and nuclear weapons experts have, or still are, aiding North Korea. Both countries have contributed to North Korea’s weapons development programmes.
All Chinese assistance had to be approved by the Chinese government. Same deal with Russia, until the 1990s. At that point, with the Soviet Union gone, along with 80 percent of Soviet era defence spending, a lot of Russian weapons experts were unemployed and willing to sell state secrets if the payoff was large enough. As a result of this North Korea is known to have received quite a bit of help in ballistic missile design (this could be seen in the details of North Korean missiles developed in the last decade).

What help they got on nuclear weapons is less clear. The three North Korean weapons tests conducted so far indicate a crude design. This would appear to mean North Korea had to develop the design largely by themselves. A separate question is whether Russia supplied technical help on adapting a nuclear weapon to handle the physical and electronic stresses of being launched by a ballistic missile.
This is no trivial task and problems with warhead design continue to plague the existing nuclear powers. It would appear that the North Koreans have not yet “weaponized” their nuclear device’s design to work in a missile (or even an aircraft bomb). But the possibility of illicitly obtained Russian tech is a possibility until evidence to the contrary is found. The same with technical assistance from Pakistan, which was helped by China to develop its nuclear warhead equipped missiles.
North Korea is threatening to fire some of its long range ballistic missiles. South Korea, Japan and United States all say they will attempt to shoot down any such missiles.

12 April 2013: The North Korean government announced that government provided food rations would return to normal this September. Few North Koreans believed this. A growing number of North Koreans get their food from the legal (or quasi-legal) markets, where prices rise and fall according to supply and demand. The government rations are given out on holidays and in times of scarcity. But these rations have been cut steadily over the last two decades because of growing food shortages. And all through that period the government has promised that it would make it all better, real soon.

11 April 2013: Kim Jong Un has now been the official leader of North Korea for one year, and what a year it has been. Early on Kim spoke of dealing with the hunger problem (just mentioning it was a big step forward) and the tense relations between the two Koreas. But the reality is that Kim’s rule has been harsher than his fathers (who died in December 2011). Kim Jong Un has also been harder on foreigners, including China.

This appears to indicate an attempt to silence critics in the military by showing everyone that, while Kim Jong Un may look like a fat little rich kid, he is actually made of sterner stuff and very much the badass dictator. Then again, this may all be the work of his aunt and her devious husband. Both are recognized as advisors of the Boy General and often give orders in his name.

10 April 2013: Chinese tour operators have been ordered (by the Chinese government) to halt, for the moment, sending groups of Chinese tourists into North Korea. The Chinese government denied that it had issued such an order, but that’s normal. There is apparently some fear that the North Korean government might whip up some anti-Chinese sentiment (historically, China has often had a hostile relationship with the Koreans). However, some cities were declared “safe” and tourism will continue. The tourism brings in badly needed foreign currency and provides good jobs for some North Koreans.

8 April 2013: The Kaesong Industrial Complex in North Korea was ordered to shut down, putting over 50,000 North Koreans out of work. The complex was created in 2004 as a place for South Korean firms to establish factories, using North Korean workers. Workers make about $60 a month, which is higher than most other jobs available. People are willing to pay bribes of up to $200 to get jobs at Kaesong. Not just for the higher pay, but for the ability to buy or steal products made there, and sell them on the local black market.

So far, the North Korean government has not made a serious effort to curb the corruption at Kaesong. Apparently too many people are making too much money there. It is assumed that the shutdown will be temporary as the complex is too important as a source of foreign currency to eliminate completely.

5 April 2013: North Korea warned foreign diplomats that the government could no longer guarantee their safety and that they, and other foreigners, should leave. The diplomats all stayed, as they, along with everyone else in North Korea realizes that all these warlike pronouncements are more theatre than threat.

[wharekura]

as I have just ordered some blank Hyosung Gv250 keys from South Korea. I'll write to the diplomatic representative in North Korea suggesting some Pavlova made by Rachel Hunter and some Mighty River Power shares in exchange for peace. (for 2 weeks at least)

[Swoop]

16 April 2013: North Korea recently imported 660 kg (1,452 pounds) of silver from China, which is a lot of silver ($600,000 worth) for poverty stricken North Korea. A popular interpretation is that the silver is for batteries used on the larger number of an improved version of its Sang-O (Shark) class mini-sub.
All the new ones appear to be armed with torpedoes (in two torpedo tubes). North Korean admirals now believe that the Sang-Os could be a decisive weapon against American and South Korean ships.

This move was apparently the result of the success in using an older version of Sang-O in 2010 to sink a South Korean corvette. North Korean naval commanders were impressed with the subsequent discussion by South Korean and American navy officials about the difficulty in dealing with such small subs. It appears that North Korea decided to build a lot more of these small subs.

The 250 ton Sang-O is actually a coastal sub originally developed for special operations (commando transports). The original design is a 34 meter (105 feet) long boat with a snorkel and a top submerged speed of 17 kilometres an hour (or 13 kilometres an hour when at periscope depth using the snorkel to run the diesel engines).
Top surface speed is 13 kilometres an hour. Max diving depth is 150 meters (465 feet) and the boat is designed to rest on the ocean bottom (useful when trying to avoid enemy search). There is a crew of 15, plus space for either six scuba swimmer commandos, or a dozen men who can go ashore in an inflatable boat.

Sang-Os have two torpedo tubes, which can also carry mines or just supplies. Some of the early models had no torpedo tubes, enabling them to carry more people or cargo. Max endurance is about eight days. The new model is 39 meters (121 feet) long and is believed to have a max submerged speed of 27 kilometres an hour and several other improvements. Over 50 Songs have been built so far, and one was captured by South Korea when it ran aground in 1996. At least a dozen are of the new model and a dozen or more are apparently under construction.

This is one of the few ship building operations underway in North Korea.

[Hinny]

Good to see some effort being put in. (Small mistake in post 180 line 19 should read South Korea.)

No mention anywhere of American involvement.

On another note:
How likely is it that the bombings in the States will be discovered to be the work of Nth. Korean operatives?
Find a passport in the bomb debris, dropped by the perp, with his address. At his address they then find details of the plot and a list of accomplices. (a la 911)
The 'New Pearl Harbour/World Trade Centre' excuse the Yanks need.

Sounds far-fetched?
As far-fetched as the Official 911 story? - that a passport of one of the hijackers was found on a pile of World Trade Centre rubble and at the perps address in upstate N.Y. they found a list of his accomplices. Some people still believe that one.

Remember when The US proposed going into Iraq the last time.
That sounded as far-fetched at the time. I remember media commentators saying the idea that they would do so was totally ridiculous /outside the bounds of possibility etc. when the story first broke.
The US and British propaganda machines kept working away.
Fortunately we had a Govt. that could see through their tissue of lies.
The current PM could not.
On the day of the 'Boston Marathon bombing' I heard there were Thirty bombings in Iraq. No mention of that in our media.

[Oakie]

On the day of the 'Boston Marathon bombing' I heard there were Thirty bombings in Iraq. No mention of that in our media.

That's because it is an everyday event in Iraq.

[oldrider]

Notice this has fizzled out of the media frenzy already ... oh look over there, some other crap to rave on about mindlessly! Korea who? :rolleyes:

[Swoop]

(Small mistake in post 180 line 19 should read South Korea.)
??
Don't think so. Have just re-read twice and the context appears correct. Can you paste the line please?

[Hinny]

??
Don't think so. Have just re-read twice and the context appears correct. Can you paste the line please?

for context:
The current barrage of threats from North Korea is upsetting Chinese trading partners and is bad for business.

The most unfavourable decision would be for Japan and South Korea to develop nuclear weapons. Both could do so quickly and would complicate Chinese foreign policy. Currently, Chinese diplomacy is backed up by the fact that China has nukes and that limits how far other nations can go in threatening China. That works both ways and China tries to maintain reasonably good relations with South Korea and Japan because both nations are trading partners and tension and threats are bad for business.


Offending line:
But the current hysteria could force Japan and North Korea to go nuclear.

[awa355]

I wonder how much the current tension between Japan and China will affect China's atitude to NK and the USA.

[Swoop]

Offending line:
But the current hysteria could force Japan and North Korea to go nuclear.
Many thanks. Now fixed!

[Swoop]

A couple of interesting developments.

25 April, 2013: Six weeks of aggressive threats to start a war have come to nothing for North Korea. None of this bluster has produced any needed aid (as in free food or fuel) or offers to reduce the sanctions. No one shows any sign of giving in to this latest barrage of threats. This is a major disappointment for the northern leadership. For over half a century you could always get something useful if you ranted and threatened long enough. The north cannot risk making good on these threats and starting an actual war, as they would lose big. North Korean military planners were taught the “correlation of forces” by their Russian mentors and have calculated the growing strength of the south and the decline of the north. All those smart bombs and combat-proven new tech the south and their allies have would make a mess of the north. But maybe another nuclear or long-range missile test will help.

In the last few days North Korean troops have been seen building fortifications near border crossings. This is unusual because for decades it was assumed any war between north and south would begin with a North Korean invasion of the south. The new fortifications indicate that the north is recognizing the power balance shift and that it is more likely South Korean troops will be moving north if it comes to war.

South Korea has offered to negotiate with North Korea over the recently closed (by North Korea) Kaesong Industrial Complex in North Korea. This put over 50,000 North Koreans out of work and is costing the South Korean companies millions of dollars. The South Korean government has said it will provide help with these losses and wants to see what the North Koreans have to say about putting 50,000 of their own people out of good jobs and making future investment from South Korea less likely because of this nonsense. South Koreans who work at the Kaesong Industrial Complex have long been a good source of intel on the north and apparently these sources indicate that it’s not just unemployed workers in Kaesong who are unhappy with their government’s antics. By asking for talks the south is indicating it wants to make it easy for the north to back down and get the Kaesong Industrial Complex and its employees working again.

The out-of-work Kaesong employees say their complaints about their government are not unique to the well-off (relatively speaking) workers at the special economic zone, but are common throughout the north. People are tired of all the propaganda, which is another tool the government uses to get everyone to ignore all the hungry, ill-housed and underemployed people up north. It’s bad enough northerners have to hear it all the time, but many are ordered out to perform in public demonstrations of “popular anger at the enemy”. This is annoying and time consuming. It used to be you got a little food for attending these “voluntary” exercises, but the food situation has gotten so bad that the government reserves have been depleted.

Everyone was reminded of this during the recent evacuation exercises, when city dwellers moved to rural dispersal sites as they would in wartime to avoid bombing attacks on the cities. The evacuees found that there was no food available for them and as a result the evacuation exercise fell apart as people simply walked away to find food. Only the senior leadership, most of who live in the cities, always has enough food. In the capital of Pyongyang, the government gave most residents several days of food in early April (to celebrate the birthday of founder Kim Il Sung). A few other cities got such distributions but most of the population did not, which only increases the resentment against those pampered government lackeys in the cities (especially the capital). In most of the country, hunger, or the threat of it, is a constant worry. Many of the North Korean soldiers the propaganda declares are “ready for war” are actually, and quite visibly, out helping plant the new crops (as they do every year).

The last six weeks have made it clear to the North Korean leadership that they have lost control of information. News of how the outside world is reacting to all the threats, and how those threats look to the rest of the world, is quickly getting to most North Koreans. The secret police (who monitor public attitudes) are reporting that people have a low opinion of their government and the current threats of war have not changed that.
The secret police also point out that a lot of North Korean propaganda, especially the stuff insisting that North Koreans have it better than people of other countries (like China, South Korea and Japan) is considered a bad joke by most North Koreans, and a growing number of them are openly mocking the mandatory lectures and demonstrations they must attend.

This is ominous, the fact that the people are losing their fear of retaliation. This is what happened in Eastern Europe in 1989 when all the communist governments there collapsed in a few months. North Korean leaders studied that event carefully and concluded that they had their people under control, that the people still feared their leaders.
The decline in fear is scary news indeed because North Korea is basically a police state and without lots of fear that sort of government does not work.

The north is buzzing with talk of the April 14th collapse of a large mosaic wall honouring Kim Il Sung in Musan. It was quickly deduced that the mosaic came down because someone had sold off some of the construction materials and the wall was not as strong as it was supposed to be. When a strong enough wind came along, the wall came down. This is the first time a monument to the two previous rulers of North Korea (Kim Il Sung and his son Kim Jong Il) was subject to obvious corruption.

There are 35,000 statues and monuments like this in North Korea and these representations of the two deceased rulers are considered sacred. It is a big deal that these monuments are now considered fair game by corrupt officials. For true-believers in the North Korean leadership this is a shocking event. For most North Koreans it is kind of expected. The old value system, inculcated by decades of relentless Kim-worshipping propaganda, is collapsing. The government will take action over this. There was a similar collapse of a lesser monument (honouring a lesser hero) in 2005, apparently due to poor design, not corruption.

Still, those responsible for that collapse were punished. That will happen this time as well and there will be an official story that does not mention corruption. Since Kim Jong Un came to power he has had over 400 monuments built to honour his father and grandfather. Most of these have been mosaics and there will be inspections to find out if others were built by corrupt officials and are in danger of collapse. Omens like this must be avoided at all costs.

The current crisis (not enough food, fuel or hard currency) has led North Korea to put more pressure on its diplomats to come up with scams to raise cash. North Korean diplomats in Pakistan have, for example, made quite a business selling liquor in a country where sale of alcoholic beverages is very restricted and highly taxed. The North Koreans import name brand stuff and bring it in via diplomatic pouch and sell it freely to anyone who will pay (a price lower than the official price). This is a highly profitable arrangement and the Pakistani government eventually found out. The North Korean diplomats deny everything and keep selling the booze.

The U.S. has told North Korea that it will only resume food aid if the north will allow American officials to monitor the distribution. Food aid was halted in 2009 when North Korea expelled these observers. North Korea had been increasingly selling food aid to raise cash for imports (of weapons and luxury goods for the leadership). The north cannot do this with observers present and refuses to back off on this policy.

24 April, 2013: South Korea and China have established a hot line to handle any crisis in North Korea that would require action by the two countries (war or collapse of the government up there). Despite the huge cost of unification to South Koreans (who have only become affluent in the last 30 years) the idea of uniting Korea is still popular in South Korea. China has reservations about this and the South Koreans have been trying to work out an understanding to get China to approve unification. Such a deal is not unprecedented.

In the 1950s Austria ended its post-World War II occupation and partition (into allies and Soviet zones) by promising the Russians that it would remain neutral forever (or, as it turned out, until the Soviet Union disappeared) if Soviet troops left. A similar deal is apparently attractive to the Chinese, or at least they are willing to quietly talk about it. South Korea is a major trading partner and any deal that solved the North Korean mess and got U.S. troops out of Korea appeals to many Chinese.

23April, 2013: North Korea demanded that it receive official recognition as a country equipped with nuclear weapons. The U.S., and most of the rest of the world, dismissed that claim out of hand. As far as anyone can tell North Korean nuclear weapons are crude and, for all practical purposes have not completed development into real weapons. At the same time North Korea has denounced a treaty it signed in 2005 where it agreed to halt nuclear weapons development in return for economic aid. The North Koreans apparently never had any intention of abiding by that deal and now say they will never give up their nukes.

21 April, 2013: North Korea has appealed to Mongolia for food aid. Even before DNA analysis became possible Koreans knew they had links to Mongols and Turks and were quite proud of this. The Korean language is related to those of Central Asia (the Ural-Altaic family of languages) not the Han family (Chinese, Tibetan and many others in East Asia). Subsequent DNA studies have confirmed these ethnic links and North Korea is hoping for a handout from Mongolia (which North Korea has long had good relations with).

Iran confirmed that it is in negotiations to sell North Korea oil. This may be just to grab some media attention but the North Koreans may also be looking for some potential alternative source if their only current oil supplier (China) cuts them off or reduces shipments. The Chinese are not happy with North Korea’s self-destructive policies, especially their nuclear and ballistic missile programs. This oil import deal would never be allowed (by the West) to go forward because the North Koreans are broke and the one thing they do have to sell is a workable atomic bomb design. That could pay for a lot of oil, if Iran could deliver it.

19 April, 2013: The U.S. reminded everyone (especially North Korea) that support for its ally South Korea includes the use, if necessary, of nuclear weapons.

18 April, 2013: North Korea said that it will even start negotiations to defuse tensions in Korea until the world lifted all the sanctions imposed on them. The rest of the world told North Korea that the sanctions won’t be lifted until the north stops its nuclear weapons development program.

17 April, 2013: South Korea has ordered 36 American AH-64 Apache helicopter gunships.

16 April, 2013: North Korea threatened to retaliate militarily against South Korea if the South Korean government did not ban anti-North Korean demonstrations in the south. This threat led to more anti-North Korea demonstrations and no reaction from South Korean officials.

[avgas]

B2's have been grounded again. But still parked in response hangers. B1's are active service but not exactly sure where as they keep radioing dummy runs. (Last I heard was Hawaii though).

Interestingly enough the russians who "loaned" a few Mig-29's are not expecting repayment from North Korea. This comes after soldiers in NK have gone back to farming so the country does not starve.

Sad thing is that irrelevant of which way this goes - the North Korean people lose.

They will either starve or be shot.

[Brian d marge]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!
true , but the fkers havent even paid the french for the warships the french sent to help in the war of independence,

oh and then as we were up against it ( on more than one occasion) they "BILLLED" us for the supplies , AND we paid it back

Oh and finally we sent allnthe gold over there for safe keeping , and the little fkers kept it ,

America has a LOT to answer for ( nice people, if a liitle dense )

we BRITISH would never do such things ,,,,, just not cricket you know

Stephen

[oldrider]

I think the French gave them (USA) the statue of liberty too didn't they?

It was also them (USA) that insisted on the breakup of the British Empire as a condition of their support in WW2! (correct me if I am wrong here)

American people generally are OK, American politics get more treacherous the deeper you go into it but overall they (USA) are less our enemy than our friends.

Churchill on the other hand. :facepalm:

[pete376403]

Churchills mother was American.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/non_fictionreviews/3670257/Winston-Churchills-American-mother.html

[Akzle]

The Yanks are often their own worst enemy true but IMHO they are "not our enemy" and on top of that, they are mostly very nice people!

the yanks, as people, are not. the yanks, as A people, are. (ie, their government, is)

on an individual basis, i'm sure many KBers would buy me beer, but they wouldn't admit to it.
on an individual basis the jews/germans/confederates/nazis/women/natives/savages/upptiy niggers aren't bad people. on the whole...


i support my people, and anyone who opposes my enemies.

capitalism and consumerism, monetary BS, ursury, are my enemies.

refer RATM, know your enemy.

[Akzle]

hly fk 4 mnths Bhind da thred.

i'll go sit in the corner. :eek:

[Brian d marge]

Churchill on the other hand. :facepalm: churchill on the one hand and stalin on the other

Stephen

[Hinny]

Oh and finally we sent allnthe gold over there for safe keeping , and the little fkers kept it ,


Stephen


The US only agreed to enter the second World War on condition that The Brits and all their allies surrender their gold reserves to them.
Stuck it in Fort Knox.
It wasn't a case of sending it there for safe keeping.

[Brian d marge]

The US only agreed to enter the second World War on condition that The Brits and all their allies surrender their gold reserves to them.
Stuck it in Fort Knox.
It wasn't a case of sending it there for safe keeping.

that makes it worse

the ( not so ) little fkers

stephen

off to by a large sized beach towel

[awa355]

The US only agreed to enter the second World War on condition that The Brits and all their allies surrender their gold reserves to them.
Stuck it in Fort Knox.
It wasn't a case of sending it there for safe keeping.

I dont think gold ever had any effect on Americas decision to enter the war, Japans attack on Pearl harbour was the catylist for that.

Now, regarding Pearl harbour, there is a strong conspiracy theory that the US govt knew that attack was going to happen, hence moving their aircraft carriers out and leaving basically their older ships in harbour. It would seem strange that the US intelligence agencies who would have been monitoring the Japanese for months would have missed the bulk of the Japanese navy slipping away from their bases.

Hard to believe that 'God fearing white people' would allow their own people to die in order to stimulate the public to want war, but this is politics at the highest level. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Kim wong dong has been reasonably quiet for a week or two. Must be watching American basketball.

[husaberg]

I dont think gold ever had any effect on Americas decision to enter the war, Japans attack on Pearl harbour was the catylist for that.

Now, regarding Pearl harbour, there is a strong conspiracy theory that the US govt knew that attack was going to happen, hence moving their aircraft carriers out and leaving basically their older ships in harbour. It would seem strange that the US intelligence agencies who would have been monitoring the Japanese for months would have missed the bulk of the Japanese navy slipping away from their bases.

Hard to believe that 'God fearing white people' would allow their own people to die in order to stimulate the public to want war, but this is politics at the highest level. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Kim wong dong has been reasonably quiet for a week or two. Must be watching American basketball.

Yes the Americans certainly ignored intelligence prior to Pearl Harbour.
But it need to be remembered the Americans had also been involved in China Prior to the attack.
As for the money situation as far as i know the Brits were still paying back America in the 80's (probably still are under the lend lease scheme.
So the America were profiting prior to entry. The citizens were loathe to enter another war so soon after the depression as well.
Either way pearl Harbour was a failure on the Japanese behalf.
As far as i know pretty much all the ships were recovered. there was only about 3 vessels total lost the planes were relatively easily replaced. and the people losses were only 2500 odd people.

The 3 carriers that were not present and the failure of the Japanese to launch the third wave were telling in the medium term.

As for Lil Wong Dong. the North Koreans leaders stay in power by convincing their people as the Cubans did. That the world is out to get them.

As always the Americans have more to fear from their own friendly fire.

[Hinny]

I dont think gold ever had any effect on Americas decision to enter the war, Japans attack on Pearl harbour was the catylist for that.

Now, regarding Pearl harbour, there is a strong conspiracy theory that the US govt knew that attack was going to happen....

Hard to believe that 'God fearing white people' would allow their own people to die in order to stimulate the public to want war, but this is politics at the highest level. :rolleyes:

I heard it was the Brits who got wind of the impending attack and decided to not inform the Yanks so as to encourage them to enter the war.

Helloooo .... three numbers come to mind regarding the last bit.... 911
As Dick Cheney said they needed a new Pearl Harbour..... nek minnit.

[Oakie]

Condensed reason for Japan attacking USA:

Japan was in China to get at the Chinese resources because they had few of their own in their homeland.
At the time England, France and the Dutch had parts of their empires in Asia and the Japanese said "how rude!" If anyone should have an empire in Asia it should be us because our country is part of the region.

USA embargoed oil and steel exports to Japan and told the Japanese they wouldn't lift them until they exited China.

Japan were left in the position of either backing off and forever-after depending on other countries for their raw materials ... or going for broke and setting up an empire to provide the resources. To a certain extent they had little choice but to go for broke and as part of that they had to knock out the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbour.

The attack was supposed to be prefaced by a declaration of war first but for a couple of reasons this didn't happen and it became a 'sneak attack'.

If you want to have some fun, hop onto a US based website and tell them that Pearl Harbour was their fault and that it was US incompetence and arrogance on many levels that allowed the attack to be the surprise it was. You'll have the rednecks climbing out of the walls and it'll make the worst KB shitfight look like a church picnic.

Oh, BTW, my dad (whose wartime nickname is my KB handle) spent 4 years in a Jap POW camp after the fall of Singapore so I'm not a Jap apologist. I just enjoy knowing how history actually went down.

[awa355]

My fathers cousin was a pow in Malaysia. He was part of a burial party that was ordered to bury the remains of five locals that had been tied alive to trees and used for bayonet practice by the Japs. I have never had any sympathy for Japanese tragadies. Although the tsunami in 2011 was terrible. No one deserved to have that happen to them.

[Oakie]

Despite the appaling treatment Dad and his mates suffered in his camp, he never said anything bad to me about Japanese people. I'm glad as I'd hate to be carrying someone else's hatred. His only gesture was that as a car salesman, he refused to sell Honda cars when the company he worked for got the Honda franchise in addition to the Morris / Austin they already had back in the late 60s, early 70s.

[Hinny]

Condensed reason for Japan attacking USA:

Japan was in China to get at the Chinese resources because they had few of their own in their homeland.
At the time England, France and the Dutch had parts of their empires in Asia and the Japanese said "how rude!" If anyone should have an empire in Asia it should be us because our country is part of the region.

USA embargoed oil and steel exports to Japan and told the Japanese they wouldn't lift them until they exited China.

Japan were left in the position of either backing off and forever-after depending on other countries for their raw materials ... or going for broke and setting up an empire to provide the resources. To a certain extent they had little choice but to go for broke and as part of that they had to knock out the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbour.


Their condensed version is they were trying to halt US expansionism into the Pacific.

[oneofsix]

Their condensed version is they were trying to halt US expansionism into the Pacific.

That would be ironic if true. Part of the USA condition on entering the war in Europe was that Britain gave up her empire, also the USA ended up with more of the Pacific after the war than she had before.
Japan was hurting due to the embargoes, Japan wanted to free Asia from the European colonial powers but she did realise that the USA pacific fleet was her biggest threat. Also Hawaii could be seen as one of those colonies Japans was "freeing" for Japan's point of view as it is closure to Japan than USA.

[Oakie]

Their condensed version is they were trying to halt US expansionism into the Pacific.

But history is written by the victors.

[oldrider]

But history is written by the victors.

Some say Maori have put paid to that theory these days! :shifty:

[awa355]

Despite the appaling treatment Dad and his mates suffered in his camp, he never said anything bad to me about Japanese people. I'm glad as I'd hate to be carrying someone else's hatred. His only gesture was that as a car salesman, he refused to sell Honda cars when the company he worked for got the Honda franchise in addition to the Morris / Austin they already had back in the late 60s, early 70s.

I did read that an ex Japanese soldier was amazed to hear that they were regarded by the Americans and allies as "Highly skilled dangerous jungle fighters", He added that the average Jap soldier was scared shitless of the jungle and the creepie crawlies. Most had never been away from their urban roots in their lives.

[Hinny]

The US were upset with the Solomon Islands for refusing to allow their Tuna boats in but allowing the Russian boats in.
The Solomon Islanders pointed out that the Russians were paying for the privilege of fishing in their economic zone but the Americans had refused to pay.
I guess they thought they had conquered them during WW2 as well.

[oneofsix]

Some say Maori have put paid to that theory these days! :shifty:

These days it seems to be all about the conquered, it is only current events or modern history that is still written by the victors. That said some of the revisiting of the roman 'history' on the so called barbarians is enlightening.

[oneofsix]

I did read that an ex Japanese soldier was amazed to hear that they were regarded by the Americans and allies as "Highly skilled dangerous jungle fighters", He added that the average Jap soldier was scared shitless of the jungle and the creepie crawlies. Most had never been away from their urban roots in their lives.

Must of had good training then :niceone:

[Swoop]

15 May 2013: Some 70 percent of North Korean ground forces are within a hundred kilometres of the DMZ (Demilitarized Zone, the border with the south.) This is the main threat to South Korea but two decades of money, fuel and food shortages have greatly reduced North Korean Army capabilities.
Two decades of extreme poverty have done even more damage to the navy and air force. While the North Korean Navy was never meant to be a major factor, the air force was meant to be a crucial element in countering, for a few days at least, the far superior South Korean and American air forces.

The North Koreans have been desperate to maintain and upgrade their air force but have been unable to do much since the 1990s. The last “new” aircraft North Korea was able to obtain were 40 MiG-21s secretly purchased from Kazakhstan in 1999.

Recently South Korea got to see how far gone the North Korean air forces were.

Back in 2010, after North Korea attacked South Korea twice (sinking a corvette with a torpedo and shelling a town on a South Korean island near North Korea), there was a period of extremely high tension on the border. Both Koreas put their armed forces on alert, a higher alert than had been used for decades.

What the South Korean intel analysts were particularly amazed by was the poor performance of the North Korean air force during this hasty mobilization as air patrols were greatly increased. It was known that North Korean pilots had been getting less and less flying time in the past decade, but when ordered into the air on a large scale for this hasty mobilization, the results were amazingly bad. The flying skills of combat pilots were particularly unimpressive, as was the performance of many aircraft (indicating poor maintenance). There were several crashes, and many near misses in the air, and a general sense of confusion among the North Korean Air Force commanders and troops. American and North Korean radars were able to record all this and satellite photos showed the aftermath.

While North Korea was apparently trying to impress, and intimidate South Korea with this display of aerial might, the impact was just the opposite. With the exception of ten MiG-29s, the North Korean air force consists of 1,300 Cold War era Russian and Chinese aircraft, about half of them combat planes.

The Chinese aircraft are knockoffs of older Russian designs, and most of the North Korean fleet consists of aircraft designs that were getting old in the 1970s. The North Korean Air Force training exercise merely confirmed what many South Korean and American intelligence analysts already suspected; that the North Korean Air Force could barely fly, and hardly fight.

The most modern aircraft the North Koreans have are 40 MiG-29s they received in the 1980s, when they were still getting freebies from the Soviet Union. The rest of their combat aircraft are poorly maintained and infrequently used antiques (because of fuel and spare parts shortages). There are 50 MiG-23s, an unreliable 1960s design which few other countries still use.

There are about 190 MiG-21s (40 of them Chinese copies of the Russian design) and about 90 each of F-6s and F-5s (Chinese copies of the MiG-19 and MiG-17, both 1950s designs hardly anyone else uses).

They have 160 bombers and ground attack aircraft, most of them elderly Russian and Chinese designs. The best of this lot are the 32 Su-25s, which are a decent contemporary of the U.S. A-10 ground attack aircraft that has proven itself in Afghanistan and the Caucasus.

The helicopter force is also elderly. The best of them are 20 Russian Mi-24 gunships and 80 American MD-500D smuggled in from Germany in the 1980s.

Perhaps the most dangerous aircraft are 300 AN-2 single engine bi-plane transports. A sturdy Russian aircraft which, although designed in the 1940s, was simple, rugged, popular and remained in production until a decade ago.
Able to carry ten passengers, the North Korean AN-2s have been seen practicing flying low and at night. Since each AN-2 can carry ten soldiers, they are believed to be intended to deliver commandos in South Korea early in any war.

Several thousand of these troops could cause a lot of confusion as South Korea mobilized for war. But in the last five years fuel shortages have meant few AN-2s have been flying. That means the pilots are not really skilled enough to carry off a night operation, especially flying low (to avoid radar) through the mountains separating the two Koreas. Using AN-2s now would lead to a lot of them, if not most of them not making it. Then there is whatever surprises South Korea and the U.S. have developed to counter this daring use of AN-2s.

The North Korean generals are aware of their aircraft deficiencies and have tried to make up for it with a large anti-aircraft system. But they have mostly very old missiles and lots of small-calibre anti-aircraft guns. The U.S. is very good at taking out radars and communications needed to make a nationwide anti-aircraft system work. It comes down to who is better prepared and equipped. The North Koreans might have some secret tricks, but they definitely don’t have the tech or the track record that the U.S. possesses.

To make up for their lack of offensive aircraft North Korea depends increasingly on ballistic missiles. The main weapon here is the liquid fuel SCUD, of which North Korea has about 500 in working order. The big drawback here is that it takes several hours to fuel these missiles.
While this could be done in caves, the North Koreans depend on being able to keep the location of the caves secret. Otherwise they entrances will be bombed early on, leaving the missiles trapped underground and useless until dug out. The North Koreans believe that if they can develop compact and reliable nuclear weapons and equip some of their ballistic missiles with them they will have a reliable weapon to protect the tyrants who run the country.
At the moment, the air force is certainly not able to do the job.

[avgas]

Don't need an Airforce to hit Seoul. Or Nukes for the matter.
NK can shell at about 2700/minute which while not earth shattering - is still horrible for those in rock throwing distance. This is about 50-100 times worse than that which hit Syria.

On a side note - America can now launch its stealth drone (X-47) from a carrier (Truman) just off the coast of Korea. (a first for anyone - see photo)

So hopefully everyone just fucks off and no one attempts to spill pointless blood.

[Swoop]

America can now launch its stealth drone (X-47) from a carrier (Truman) just off the coast of Korea. (a first for anyone - see photo)
Photo?
See the video!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p9W-nd1Hj3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oneofsix]

Ok so they chucked a bit of expensive hardware off a boat, what about the recovery? or is it now just jetsam?

[Swoop]

Ok so they chucked a bit of expensive hardware off a boat, what about the recovery? or is it now just jetsam?
It landed back at an airfield.
A week or so back the X-47 landed with a tailhook arrested landing on a carrier deck layout (on an airfield though).

The next stage is an actual shipboard landing on the carrier, but this software has already been trialled in an F-18 coming into a fully automated landing.

[imdying]

The next stage is an actual shipboard landing on the carrier, but this software has already been trialled in an F-18 coming into a fully automated landing.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzlFiLuvGeE

[oneofsix]

It landed back at an airfield.
A week or so back the X-47 landed with a tailhook arrested landing on a carrier deck layout (on an airfield though).

The next stage is an actual shipboard landing on the carrier, but this software has already been trialled in an F-18 coming into a fully automated landing.

:eek: that's got to be the scary bit, one thing to send it away from you but to have it coming at you?. A city full of people, in the middle of the ocean, with a guided missile coming at them, you would have to praying they get it right, no blue screens at critical moments or software bugs. Can understand why you start with a desert trial, then a plane on full auto with pilot, I presume, so the pilot can at least save the ship if it goes wrong.

[Swoop]

This?
Promo video... CGI.

that's got to be the scary bit, one thing to send it away from you but to have it coming at you?.
I think the scarier bit is the human recognition software in the nose. All of the deck-handling signals from the flight deck crew are programmed into it and it automatically responds in the same way as a human pilot to those hand actions being waved about.

[oneofsix]

I think the scarier bit is the human recognition software in the nose. All of the deck-handling signals from the flight deck crew are programmed into it and it automatically responds in the same way as a human pilot to those hand actions being waved about.

:cool: so all the North Koreans have to do is teach their people the signal to wave them off for a go-a-round :innocent: :whistle:

[imdying]

Promo video... CGI.I think that's pretty obvious, but thanks for letting us know :laugh:

[Swoop]

I think that's pretty obvious, but thanks for letting us know :laugh:
No worries!:laugh:

The bit of footage on the flight deck, as it goes for the hook-up of the wire, is really well done. Looks like a F-18 landing that has been modified with the -47 image. A very quick scene, but nevertheless effective!

[imdying]

It's all we have for now :)

All sorts of shit have hit carriers, so I assume this drone shouldn't be to much trouble if it augers in.

[awa355]

Reading swoop's write up on the norths defence forces capabilities, why dont the US just call their bluff and deal with the twats once and for all? It's hard to believe that the masses can remain so brainwashed by the 'leaders'

[McFatty1000]

Reading swoop's write up on the norths defence forces capabilities, why dont the US just call their bluff and deal with the twats once and for all? It's hard to believe that the masses can remain so brainwashed by the 'leaders'

It'd be interesting to see what its really like in the country - I'm thinking the famine and such would make it hard to care about the outside world to a large extent.

As to why not just going in and cleaning up - I think that'd have more to do with China being nextdoor and reacting badly to military force on a technical ally. Why China hasn't is a bit more of a question though

[Swoop]

16 May 2013: China is allowing North Korea to continue hosting tourists from China.
These visitors are a valuable source of foreign exchange for North Korea, and some 20,000 Chinese tourists visit each year on these day trips. North Korea recently advised the Chinese tour operators that they could include non-Chinese (including Westerners). This is one of the few bits of good news for North Korea from China recently. In the last two weeks China has found numerous ways to express its displeasure over North Korean aggressiveness towards its southern neighbour (a major trading partner with China and much easier to deal with) and continued efforts to develop nuclear weapon equipped ballistic missiles.

These nukes are thought to be intended to threaten the West (and Japan) but they could also be pointed at China. This, and so many other things North Korea has done (like not reforming its economy as China did in the 1980s), has apparently become intolerable for China and, without making any public announcements of a shift in policy, China has become much more hostile to the North Korean government of Kim Jong Un. This includes grooming his older brother Kim Jong Nam to replace him.

Kim Jong Nam was long believed to be the heir apparent to Kim Jong Il but this heir was too much of a playboy and had an unhealthy (to North Korean officials) positive attitude towards the West and the way China was run. Kim Jong Nam spent much of his time in China and basically lives there supported in luxurious fashion by the Chinese government. That includes protection from any North Korean assassins who might be sent to kill him (by his nervous younger brother). China has long recruited members of the North Korean leadership, usually via favours, like tolerating their private business enterprises in China. The Kim clan in North Korea has fought this infiltration as best it can, firing officials thought to be pro-Chinese and even executing a few. But Chinese economic activity in North Korea is so widespread and crucial that is has proved impossible to shut the Chinese agents out. This new Chinese pressure could result in push-back in the form of more real or suspected pro-Chinese North Korean officials losing their jobs, freedom, or lives.

Succession conspiracies aside, China has imposed some more immediate and debilitating restrictions on North Korea.
Access to Chinese banks is being cut off, one bank at a time. This makes it very difficult for North Korea to pay for illegal imports and get profits for illegal exports (weapons, drugs, counterfeit currency).

China has ordered border police to crack down on the illegal North Korean smuggling. This was long tolerated, as long as the drugs and counterfeit currency did not land in China. That rule was not always obeyed by North Korea and now China is making up for lost retribution. The Chinese border guards can be bribed (with a lot more money), but that won’t shut down all the many other Chinese security organizations under the same orders to block those exports. North Korea, fearful that China will cut off oil imports, is trying to make a deal with Iran to trade iron ore for oil, but that assumes the Chinese (and American and so on) navies will allow those tankers and ore carriers to complete their deliveries. That is not likely to happen. North Koreans view all this with dread because for centuries this is how China handled troublesome neighbours. American diplomats have openly praised China for all these moves.

15 May 2013: Japan announced it could, not that it would, attack unidentified submarines approaching the disputed Senkaku Islands. Apparently Japanese warships recently detected such a sub near the Senkakus and believed it was Chinese. International law prohibits foreign ships (especially warships) to get any closer than 22 kilometres from another nation’s coast without permission. Since Japan has long owned and controlled the unpopulated Senkakus it enforces the 22 kilometre “territorial waters.”

13 May 2013: Three Chinese warships approached the territorial waters of the Senkaku Islands and briefly entered them (getting closer than 22 kilometres to one of the islands). China has been probing like this with increasing frequency, using ships and aircraft (both military and commercial).

11 May 2013: Britain and the United States both report numerous new efforts by Chinese hackers to obtain secret data about the new American F-35 stealth warplane. British firms are developing some of the F-35 components. The Chinese deny these charges but more evidence of Chinese involvement is being released.

8 May 2013: The government has another corruption embarrassment, with revelations that the 41 year old granddaughter (Kong Dongmei) of communist China founder Mao Zedong is worth nearly $800 million and is listed as 242 on a list of the 500 wealthiest Chinese. Kong Dongmei also has three children, a violation of the one-child policy. Mao Zedong (who died in 1976) was always a strong believer in state ownership of everything and no private property. Many Chinese still regard Mao Zedong as a hero, even though those polices led to the death of over 20 million Chinese and the impoverishment of most of the population.

7 May 7 2013: The Philippines protested the presence of Chinese warships 11 kilometres from Ayungin Shoal in the Spratly Islands. The Philippines claims part of the Spratly Islands (which are closer to the Philippines than China) and Ayungin Shoal is occupied by Filipino military personnel.

5 May 2013: Indian and Chinese officers met to resolve yet another border dispute and a bit of Chinese aggression. China agreed to withdraw its intruding troops while India agreed to remove some border posts that had annoyed the Chinese. Both nations declared victory but the Chinese got more out of the deal. It was all about twenty or so Chinese troops who have been camped out 19 kilometres inside Indian Kashmir since April 15th.

China said their troops were not inside India, something India disputed. Neither country seemed eager to escalate this, or resolve it, but negotiations eventually began. China initially said it would withdraw if India would abandon an observation post in the mountains that overlooked Chinese positions. The Indian outpost was in Indian territory but the Chinese don’t like being watched. The Indians refused and pointed out that there had been three other Chinese incursions recently, but these troops did not linger. India saw all this as the Chinese way of applying pressure on India to withdraw from territory claimed by India. The Chinese stood fast and once more this tactic worked. Many Indians were appalled at how their government had given in to Chinese aggression. Indian politicians and media are pressuring the government to fight back next time and everyone assumes there will be a next time.

[awa355]

Two things from this, 1; What the fuck would any tourist ( even Chinese ) want to see in NK?? 2; Even Kimmy boy wouldn't be stupid enough to point his nukes at big brother.

Re India, That would be an interesting stoush. Having worked with many Indians, I wouldn't be putting any money on them to do the hard yards at the frontline.

[pzkpfw]

Two things from this, 1; What the fuck would any tourist ( even Chinese ) want to see in NK?? 2; Even Kimmy boy wouldn't be stupid enough to point his nukes at big brother.

Re India, That would be an interesting stoush. Having worked with many Indians, I wouldn't be putting any money on them to do the hard yards at the frontline.

India keeps beating up the Pakistani's, but given the size difference, not too surprising.

The China-India war in the early 60's is considered one of the great military disasters of the 20th century, for the Indians.

They all have nukes. Which makes it all quite "interesting".

[Swoop]

It landed back at an airfield.
A week or so back the X-47 landed with a tailhook arrested landing on a carrier deck layout (on an airfield though).

The next stage is an actual shipboard landing on the carrier, but this software has already been trialled in an F-18 coming into a fully automated landing.

I see that the X-47 has been conducting touch-and-go circuits this last Friday... on the carrier!

[Hinny]

I see that the X-47 has been conducting touch-and-go circuits this last Friday... on the carrier!


Look out World.

[Hinny]

Two things from this, 1; What the fuck would any tourist ( even Chinese ) want to see in NK??

Looks pretty fascinating to me.
Amasing architecture. Better than anything in NZ. Their festivals and parades look truly fantastic. Beautiful roads with hardly a vehicle on them. The history of the place, its customs and traditions. The things that people travel to experience.
I looked at the 10 greatest attractions in Auckland earlier. What inspired this was seeing an Auckland sightseeing bus with a sign on the side with a special price to see the top 20 Auckland attractions. My daughter and I both asked the question "what could they be?" Couldn't come up with many and the people who put the Auckland's top 10 attractions obviously had the same dilemma citing the majority of attractions from locales that only recently became part of 'the Super City'. Without those you would really be struggling so one can imagine a visit to North Korea for an Aucklander would be really great. Imagine how far our money would go. A disciplined, courteous and fun loving population, eager to please. What more could you want?

[Berries]

What more could you want?
Take my dog.

[husaberg]

Look out World.

the collateral damage potential of the US friendly fire has just entered the Play station age..........

[Hinny]

the collateral damage potential of the US friendly fire has just entered the Play station age..........

Those rescue shows they have on TV would make you think if you were in trouble "Oh No! for fucks sake, don't try and rescue me".

The collateral damage thing - I remember a neighbour telling me of his experiences at Monte Casino. He said when a German bomber came over the allies would take cover. When an allied bomber came over the Germans would take cover. When an American plane came over they would all take cover. The Yanks became so hated that when one got shot down one day both sides cheered.

[Hinny]

Take my dog.

What sort of dog is he/she?

What was that film where the guy was arguing with a Korean at a party about what were the best sorts of dog? They were arguing from different perspectives. LOL.

[husaberg]

Those rescue shows they have on TV would make you think if you were in trouble "Oh No! for fucks sake, don't try and rescue me".

The collateral damage thing - I remember a neighbour telling me of his experiences at Monte Casino. He said when a German bomber came over the allies would take cover. When an allied bomber came over the Germans would take cover. When an American plane came over they would all take cover. The Yanks became so hated that when one got shot down one day both sides cheered.

I remember the stats someone produced for the Vietnam and Korean wars the allies were far more likely to be killed by the ever friendly Artillery....

[Berries]

what sort of dog is he/she?
뜨거운 핫도그.


But you knew that.

[Hinny]

뜨거운 핫도그.


But you knew that.

Ow! I need someone to translate.
Bit slow? Too much wine? Not enough sleep?

Questions - are all around us ... and I don't have the answers. Better get to SIT.

HELP.
I feel like Donald Rumsfeld/ There are things we know and there are things we don't know.
There are things we know we know and there are things we know we don't know and then .. there are things we don't know we know.
뜨거운 핫도그. falls into the latter category.

[Hinny]

I remember the stats someone produced for the Vietnam and Korean wars the allies were far more likely to be killed by the ever friendly Artillery....

That is freaky.
I seem to recall some Kiwi gunners shelled some friendlies in Vietnam. Must be terrible for those involved.

[Hinny]

뜨거운 핫도그.


But you knew that.

Hot,Hot Dog.
I get it - finally.

[Swoop]

10 June 2013: The North Korean nuclear test in February was the last straw for many Chinese leaders, and now the North Koreans are being threatened (often in public, which is very embarrassing) and told they must change their ways (no nukes and many more economic reforms). China has cut back on economic aid to the north and cracked down on North Korea smuggling operations (via China).

This is hurting the north financially and China has made it clear that things won’t change until the north does what China demands. North Korea has begun repairing relations with South Korea and has implemented more economic reforms.

This includes a bonus program for farmers, who for decades have been treated like factory workers, receiving a salary and given few incentives to do a better job. Many farmers know that their Chinese counterparts got performance incentives decades ago and prospered. But that was China, and North Korea condemned the Chinese for capitalist tendencies. No more, as the North Korean government has also loosened state controls on all worker pay in the country. This allows managers to reward more productive workers.

North Korea is being invaded by more than Chinese ideas. The Chinese currency has become the most widely used cash in much of the economy. This was a result of the ill-conceived 2009 currency reforms, which wiped out the savings of many entrepreneurs. Now these business-minded North Koreans prefer to do as much of their business as possible using Chinese and American currency. The local currency (the North Korean won) has lost most of its value (in terms of how many won it costs to buy a dollar or Chinese yuan) in the last four years.

The government is building a ski resort in the northeast (near Wonsan). The area has heavy snow from November to March and will be open to foreigners as well as North Koreans who can afford it (senior officials and the wealthier entrepreneurs). The resort is another perk for the ruling class and a way to extract more cash from tourists and North Korean entrepreneurs. Soldiers are doing a lot of the construction work.

There are already some ski runs in North Korea but these were built for military training or to help athletes prepare for international competitions. The big competition will be with their South Korean counterparts during the 2018 Winter Olympics that will be held in South Korea (which already has a lot of ski resorts and many medals from the Winter Olympics).

A lot of North Koreans still believe in their government, if only because decades of intense propaganda have created a reality that is difficult to abandon. It’s also illegal, and often fatal, to show disloyalty. But the growing information from the outside is causing more and more confusion among North Koreans. The propaganda stressed how North Koreans were special and the Kim dynasty appreciated the unique purity and specialness of the North Korean people and struggled to preserve that unique character.

Alas, many North Koreans are more concerned with personal survival and a better life. These malcontents are proliferating and already there are too many to send them all to prison camps. This growing shortage of true believers is seen as a trend that could destroy the North Korean ruling class. The only solution is more money, and nuclear weapons are seen as the wonder weapon that can make it all better. But the nukes are annoying China, which is the only source of emergency economic aid North Korea has left.

Increasingly the cultural threats are coming from China, not South Korea. Videos of Chinese movies and TV shows are easier to get than the South Korean ones. The Chinese vids need subtitles, although many North Koreans (of the sort who have access to these videos) understand Chinese. It’s the kids who are most susceptible to this form of mental “pollution.” While government propaganda can criticize South Korean culture, the Chinese are officially friends and allies and that kind of criticism is not allowed.

The government is trying to deal with the growing bad behaviour by using the “mobilization” (ordering people out for unpaid work on the farms or simply to clean up public areas). Avoiding this sort of thing, or not making an effort, is a crime, although the affluent can usually bribe their way out of it. But for most people the growing number of “mobilizations” is tiring and another reminder of the power of the state.

It’s not just ordinary citizens who get mobilized but also members of the military. Even border guards and police units have farms they must tend and during planting and harvesting time most of these uniformed personnel are farming rather than dealing with their usual chores. But the borders must still be guarded, so a lot of the guards pull double shifts, often for weeks on end. This is not only bad for morale but lowers efficiency or simply makes the border security less effective. The overworked border guards are more susceptible to bribes during these times, despite the increased secret police presence (and a long stint in a labour camp if they catch you taking a bribe).

9 June 2013: North and South Korea agreed to resume high level discussions on matters of mutual interest (economic aid for North Korea and South Korean firms operating factories inside North Korea as well as the North Korean nuclear and missile programs).

These talks will begin in a few days. It is believed that North Korea has been forced by China to make peace with South Korea, get their economy in order and shut down their nuclear weapons program. North Korea is resisting that last demand.

8 June 2013: For the first time in two years there were official talks in the DMZ border village (the traditional neutral ground for such talks).
It lasted only an hour and mainly dealt more extensive talks to be held next week. North Korea asked for the talks and South Korea was reluctant to do it believing it was just another propaganda ploy.

But China convinced the South Koreans that the northerners were eager to make nice and repair some of the damage northern belligerence had created in the last few months. This includes reopening the recently closed Kaesong Industrial Complex (in North Korea but financed and run by over a hundred South Korean firms employing more than 50,000 North Koreans).

The leaders of the U.S. and China completed two days of talks and agreed that North Korean nuclear weapons had to go.

7 June 2013: North Korea restored the telephone hotline with the south. The north shut down the hotline in March.

26 May 2013: China has openly called for denuclearization of the Korean peninsula. Since South Korea does not have nukes, this call was aimed squarely at North Korea. The U.S. had nukes in South Korea during the Cold War but removed them in 1991. China fears that South Korea might develop nukes to counter the threat from North Korea.

[avgas]

Two things from this, 1; What the fuck would any tourist ( even Chinese ) want to see in NK?? 2; Even Kimmy boy wouldn't be stupid enough to point his nukes at big brother.

Re India, That would be an interesting stoush. Having worked with many Indians, I wouldn't be putting any money on them to do the hard yards at the frontline.
Lets put it this way.
India is the only country (outside Russia) that is buying top of the line Russian vehicles prior to release.
They currently have orders for T-90 (and T-99) Tanks and Sukhoi PAK FA aircraft. Both which won't be released for years to come. This is to replace

They play with Pakistan, but you won't ever see a Pakistani soldier cross onto Indian soil.
I used to think the same as you - bunch of dairy owners with guns. But completely forgot the fact they have the $.

An example of this was somalian pirates.

Indian navy sent the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Tabar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Nicobar_class_fast_attack_craft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Tir_(A86)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Nicobar_class_fast_attack_craft

And while none of these are AMAZING ships.......they still went out there with full crew and started to sink ships. Also these were the "off-cut" ships.
As far as I know they didn't send their subs or aircraft carriers.

But then again - would you evaluate our SAS based upon "Once were warriors"?

[awa355]

Have just read the Wiki article on the INS Tabar. Fairly impressive ship.

Re Nth K and the USA relationship, There's been very little in the media about Russia's stance on the Nth Koreans.

It seems that the Chinese have made Kimmmy whatshisname pull his head in a bit.

[avgas]

Missile Radar intercepted in Panama

http://theaviationist.com/2013/07/16/north-korea-ship-panama/#.UeW8azt98Z4

[Hinny]

Missile Radar intercepted in Panama

http://theaviationist.com/2013/07/16/north-korea-ship-panama/#.UeW8azt98Z4

Can't blame them for wanting to defend themselves.
Look at what happened to Iraq after she laid down her arms.