Wrong battery preventing bike starting?

[chinny]

So i picked up an old Yamaha YB125E (70's or 80's) which is 2 stoke, 12V with both electric and kick start. Last owner couldn't get it working. I am only using the kickstarter to try and get it going.
It has compression, fuel/oil and air. Spark seems weak though - sometimes its a dim blue but most of the time its orange. This is when the plug is out of the cylinder btw.

I heard for these old Yamahas you need a decent battery to get it going, which is reinforced by the fact that mine won't spark if the battery is taken out.
The service manual says battery should be 12V 10Ah (12N10), but its currently got a 12V 5Ah (a Besco 12N5 3B).

Question then, is the 5Ah battery the culprit?

I should mention that i got it going one time (ran for for like 2 seconds) which happened after i cleaned the carb float bowl out. Died when i opened the throttle. But hasn't started since, even tho i've since unblocked some jets and done more carb cleaning...

My thoughts are the battery is too weak to create sufficient spark inside the cylinder under compression cos its only 5Ah but my electrical knowledge isn't flash...
Any thoughts?

[FJRider]

Try a plug you KNOW is good and compare the spark. Even if it wont fit in the hole.

And go from there ... and hows the air filter .. ???

[chinny]

Try a plug you KNOW is good and compare the spark. Even if it wont fit in the hole.

And go from there ... and hows the air filter .. ???

Need to buy a new spark plug then - no biggie but would like to eliminate the undersize battery before other things. Was thinking of new plug but inconsistency in spark made me think it wasn't the plug. Will buy new plug soon and try it.

Air filter is old and crumbly - haven't had a good look, but i've tried kicking it with filter out too.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Brian d marge]

From memory the insulation in the generator of those old things goes funny or something like that ,,,and they do have problems making sparks
Really can't remember the details but its something a long those lines
A 12 v battery is just a 12v battery , how long it makes the 12v is another story
Make sure every part of that electrical system is in good and clean nick with a good earth
Some one can correct or elaborate on this as I'm not near my desk

Stephen

[FJRider]

Need to buy a new spark plug then - no biggie but would like to eliminate the undersize battery before other things. Was thinking of new plug but inconsistency in spark made me think it wasn't the plug. Will buy new plug soon and try it.

Air filter is old and crumbly - haven't had a good look, but i've tried kicking it with filter out too.

Thanks for the suggestions.

A weak battery may not spin a motor over fast enough to start it (typical of low compression) ... but that also takes power that the plug needs. Kicking it over does not have that drain on the power ... just as a push start doesn't have a drain on power. (Or a BIG HILL)

A shot of easy start in the carb throat may get it to fire up. If that doesn't fire it up it may not be a fuel/carb issue. With a good plug ... it should fire.

CDI or points .. ??

[chinny]

From memory the insulation in the generator of those old things goes funny or something like that ,,,and they do have problems making sparks
Really can't remember the details but its something a long those lines
A 12 v battery is just a 12v battery , how long it makes the 12v is another story
Make sure every part of that electrical system is in good and clean nick with a good earth
Some one can correct or elaborate on this as I'm not near my desk

Stephen

Was afraid someone would say that...i dread electrical fault finding (a wire's a wire, right?) as its all electrons, current and unseen stuff. But yea, thanks for the headsup - will attempt to check through the electrical systems starting with the insulation.


A weak battery may not spin a motor over fast enough to start it (typical of low compression) ... but that also takes power that the plug needs. Kicking it over does not have that drain on the power ... just as a push start doesn't have a drain on power. (Or a BIG HILL)

A shot of easy start in the carb throat may get it to fire up. If that doesn't fire it up it may not be a fuel/carb issue. With a good plug ... it should fire.

CDI or points .. ??
How would a weak battery hinder the motor spinning if its kick-starting we're talking about? or am i missing something here...My understanding was that most bikes are wired so that they can start w/out a battery (kick or bump start), however some bikes (e.g. mine) require the battery regardless.

Ok might give easy start a try if i run out of ideas.
Forgot to mention - when i got the bike and kicked it over the plug was always dry. After cleaning the carb the plug is now wet. Seems to be both oil and fuel in there...

CDI or points? No idea, my guess is points given what Brian said in his post?

Tomorrows shopping list - multimeter, spark plug, carb starter (if its cheap) :)

[FJRider]

How would a weak battery hinder the motor spinning if its kick-starting we're talking about? or am i missing something here...My understanding was that most bikes are wired so that they can start w/out a battery (kick or bump start), however some bikes (e.g. mine) require the battery regardless.

Because as it turns the motor over ... it hogs ALL the power. Thus weak spark. Kick it over and the sparkplug gets ALL available power. In MOST cases ... it will start (by kicking it over) with a flat battery. But usually needs to be wired to start without a battery in the ignition circuit.


Ok might give easy start a try if i run out of ideas.
Forgot to mention - when i got the bike and kicked it over the plug was always dry. After cleaning the carb the plug is now wet. Seems to be both oil and fuel in there...

THAT is a start. Progress even ...


CDI or points? No idea, my guess is points given what Brian said in his post?

Find them then ... look for (usually) a small round cover on the side of the engine. (not sure which side) Clean them up and set the gap. It wont be far out if it gives spark to the plug now.


Tomorrows shopping list - multimeter, spark plug, carb starter (if its cheap) :)

Just a plug first .... and install at the right (or near) gap. Clean and Set the points. Try again. Dont spend money if you dont need to.

[Skiwi]

To answer your original question:
Hook up a car battery to it with some jumper leads, if it starts the answer was yes, if it doesn't the answer was no. :msn-wink:

[chinny]

To answer your original question:
Hook up a car battery to it with some jumper leads, if it starts the answer was yes, if it doesn't the answer was no. :msn-wink:

Great news - finally started today!
At first i thought hooking up the car battery was a joke, but turns out no harm done to bike (i hope)..
Anyway, the car battery alone didn't work, so went out and bought a new plug and presto!
FJ, thanks for the suggestion. I thought the current plug looked ok and sparked, but i guess it wasnt.

Without the car battery connected the bike starts using the kicker but takes a few tries (3 last time i tried) but it goes.
Managed to ride it down the street and back :)
Idle is fine, but chokes when i open the throttle - probably carb issue, but also might be battery not performing.
I'll try opening the throttle with it connected to car battery to see if it solves the problem - if not then it will probably be carb related.

Thanks for the help guys - owe you one!

[Skiwi]

Unless the battery and charging system on the bike are totally goosed i would put my money on the carby.

Does it start on the kick start with the battery in?
If you have a volt meter, test the battery with the bike off, then test it when running.
It should be about 12.8 without engine running and about 13.8 when the bike is running.

If it is markedly different with engine off it will probably be the battery. That's likely if it has been sitting a shed somewhere for ages without any loving.

If it doesn't go over 13 With the engine running (give a bit of a rev) it is likely to be the charging system on the bike.

(FYI The difference between a 5ah and 10ah battery is in how long you can crank for, not how intense it is. 5ah= five amp hours, which means it can supply one amp for 5 hours or two for 2.5 hours etc before it is totally flat)

PS: Just had a thought - you are using fresh petrol?

[Edbear]

I love seeing battery threads. <_<

But you are obviously on a tight budget...

[chinny]

Unless the battery and charging system on the bike are totally goosed i would put my money on the carby.

Does it start on the kick start with the battery in?
If you have a volt meter, test the battery with the bike off, then test it when running.
It should be about 12.8 without engine running and about 13.8 when the bike is running.

If it is markedly different with engine off it will probably be the battery. That's likely if it has been sitting a shed somewhere for ages without any loving.

If it doesn't go over 13 With the engine running (give a bit of a rev) it is likely to be the charging system on the bike.

(FYI The difference between a 5ah and 10ah battery is in how long you can crank for, not how intense it is. 5ah= five amp hours, which means it can supply one amp for 5 hours or two for 2.5 hours etc before it is totally flat)

PS: Just had a thought - you are using fresh petrol?

No - as i said in my original post it doesn't spark unless the battery is connected.
Didn't end up buying a multimeter, but will look at borrowing one and doing the tests - thanks for the figures.
I tried revving the engine with the car battery connected, but it still stutters once the throttle gets to ~30%. So my guess is carb.
Yea the battery has probably been sitting for ages. At least 1 year - that's how long the previous owner had it.

Oh ok - thanks for the explanation on amp hours.
FYI - its starts first time using electric starter (or kick) with the car battery. Without car battery the electric start won't start it (it really struggles) and kick starting takes about 3-4 kicks.

Yep - fresh petrol and oil.


I love seeing battery threads. <_<

But you are obviously on a tight budget...

My budget isn't super tight, but a new motobatt will cost me $110 from a local dealer. If its really needed yes i'll get one, but $110 is a lot to spend if i wasn't sure it was the problem.
I've looked briefly a getting a Yuasa, but haven't got any real info for pricing that i could find online.. (12N10, 10Ah).
I've read a few posts where people love the motobatts, while others seem to have bad experiences with them.

Will jam a screwdriver into the carb soon and see what happens :)

[Canis G.]

For what its worth, sounds like your battery is either flat and needs a good charge up or it is buggered and won't hold a charge. You really need to take some voltage readings:
1. before you start the bike.
2. when the bike is running.
3.charge the battery then take a reading soon as you take it off the charger, then 2 hours later, then about 12 hours later and then about 24 hours from when you took it iff charge. Report your results back here and we can probably give you a good steer as to the problem.

Hope it helps.

[unstuck]

Get that bit of shit out of the carby, buy a new battery and away you go. Talk to ED about a new battery, He,s a good bugger, and will give you a good deal, right ed?:devil2:

[Skiwi]

For what its worth, sounds like your battery is either flat and needs a good charge up or it is buggered and won't hold a charge. You really need to take some voltage readings:
1. before you start the bike.
2. when the bike is running.
3.charge the battery then take a reading soon as you take it off the charger, then 2 hours later, then about 12 hours later and then about 24 hours from when you took it iff charge. Report your results back here and we can probably give you a good steer as to the problem.

Hope it helps.

+1 = good advice

[FJRider]

Have you looked at the points yet .. ???

[Edbear]

No - as i said in my original post it doesn't spark unless the battery is

My budget isn't super tight, but a new motobatt will cost me $110 from a local dealer. If its really needed yes i'll get one, but $110 is a lot to spend if i wasn't sure it was the problem.
I've looked briefly a getting a Yuasa, but haven't got any real info for pricing that i could find online.. (12N10, 10Ah).
I've read a few posts where people love the motobatts, while others seem to have bad experiences with them.

Will jam a screwdriver into the carb soon and see what happens :)

Motobatt had a dud run of batteries recently and a lot of dealers were affected. I don't know if they've resolved it yet so just be aware to ask the question if you do go to buy one. They are the cheapest, but Yuasa is the best of he lead acid ones. I sell the Shorai LiFePO4 batteries which are the best in the world, (and I mean that sincerely, I really do...), and although a bit dearer they have 4x the life cycle of lead acid and are much more powerful.

So it really depends on budget and whether you feel the extra initial cost is worth it for your purposes.


Get that bit of shit out of the carby, buy a new battery and away you go. Talk to ED about a new battery, He,s a good bugger, and will give you a good deal, right ed?:devil2:

I have been known to.... :shifty:


Have you looked at the points yet .. ???

What a pointless suggestion... Oh, wait... :innocent:

[FJRider]

What a pointless suggestion... Oh, wait... :innocent:

The modern motorcycle mechanic often forgets about them. Some of the old ones had an aftermarket CDI fitted .... With the old points still fitted. Easy then to remove the CDI then and go with the points.

Or ... wrongfully assume all bikes have/had a CDI ignition ... or have no idea where to look for them.

[Edbear]

The modern motorcycle mechanic often forgets about them. Some of the old ones had an aftermarket CDI fitted .... With the old points still fitted. Easy then to remove the CDI then and go with the points.

Or ... wrongfully assume all bikes have/had a CDI ignition ... or have no idea where to look for them.

I felt your post deserved some kind of pun but my attempt was rather lame... :facepalm:

[FJRider]

I felt your post deserved some kind of pun but my attempt was rather lame... :facepalm:

I knew you were pulling my leg. I'm not broken up about it though. I guess I'll limp along ... :innocent:

[Edbear]

I knew you were pulling my leg. I'm not broken up about it though. I guess I'll limp along ... :innocent:

Yeah, what's the point in pointlessly limping along lamely, punning to breaking point... :innocent:

[chinny]

For what its worth, sounds like your battery is either flat and needs a good charge up or it is buggered and won't hold a charge. You really need to take some voltage readings:
1. before you start the bike.
2. when the bike is running.
3.charge the battery then take a reading soon as you take it off the charger, then 2 hours later, then about 12 hours later and then about 24 hours from when you took it iff charge. Report your results back here and we can probably give you a good steer as to the problem.

Hope it helps.

Definitely the battery is not quite 100%. Will do the test when i borrow a mates multimeter.
Thanks for the figures - i will post back once done.


Get that bit of shit out of the carby, buy a new battery and away you go. Talk to ED about a new battery, He,s a good bugger, and will give you a good deal, right ed?:devil2:

Carb should be clean, i think just needs a tune but i could be wrong. Took a whole lot of green stuff (copper carbonate?) the last time i cleaned. Also unblocked the idle/slow jet.

[unstuck]

Carb should be clean, i think just needs a tune but i could be wrong. Took a whole lot of green stuff (copper carbonate?) the last time i cleaned. Also unblocked the idle/slow jet.

Did you clean out the lines and tank too? WhAt about the air filter?

[chinny]

For what its worth, sounds like your battery is either flat and needs a good charge up or it is buggered and won't hold a charge. You really need to take some voltage readings:
1. before you start the bike.
2. when the bike is running.
3.charge the battery then take a reading soon as you take it off the charger, then 2 hours later, then about 12 hours later and then about 24 hours from when you took it iff charge. Report your results back here and we can probably give you a good steer as to the problem.

Hope it helps.

Ok some results. Haven't used the charger yet as i haven't found time to put on the charger and monitor so it doesn't overcharge.

1. Bike off, key out = 12.5V
2a. Bike at idle (no headlight) = 11.9-12.0V
2b. Bike at idle (headlight dipped) = 11.4V


Unless the battery and charging system on the bike are totally goosed i would put my money on the carby.

Does it start on the kick start with the battery in?
If you have a volt meter, test the battery with the bike off, then test it when running.
It should be about 12.8 without engine running and about 13.8 when the bike is running.

If it is markedly different with engine off it will probably be the battery. That's likely if it has been sitting a shed somewhere for ages without any loving.

If it doesn't go over 13 With the engine running (give a bit of a rev) it is likely to be the charging system on the bike.

(FYI The difference between a 5ah and 10ah battery is in how long you can crank for, not how intense it is. 5ah= five amp hours, which means it can supply one amp for 5 hours or two for 2.5 hours etc before it is totally flat)

PS: Just had a thought - you are using fresh petrol?

2c. Bike at med revs = 14.4V

Seems like the battery and charging system are ok then? Or do i still need to stick it on the charger and do the measurements 0hr, 2hr, 12hr etc readings?

Also btw, I found the float valve in the carb doesn't shut properly so fuel drips in even when float valve is meant to be shut. This would mean the engine runs rich, which could be the cause of the engine not doing much past 30% throttle.
Hope to find a replacement float valve..

[FJRider]

Also btw, I found the float valve in the carb doesn't shut properly so fuel drips in even when float valve is meant to be shut. This would mean the engine runs rich, which could be the cause of the engine not doing much past 30% throttle.
Hope to find a replacement float valve..

NO ... it just means it will leak fuel out the overflow when the engine is NOT running. Turn the fuel tap off when you stop. With the engine running ... there should be no issue.

Have you found the points yet ???

[Skiwi]

Ok some results. <snip>
Seems like the battery and charging system are ok then? Or do i still need to stick it on the charger and do the measurements 0hr, 2hr, 12hr etc readings?


Sounds good, i think the charging system is working ok. If it was me I would just take a volt reading, then compare it with one about 12 or 24 hours later, long as it is within about 0.1 - 0.5 volts of each other it means the battery is holding its charge ok.

[p.dath]

Just a thought, have you checked the spark plug gap?

[chinny]

NO ... it just means it will leak fuel out the overflow when the engine is NOT running. Turn the fuel tap off when you stop. With the engine running ... there should be no issue.

Have you found the points yet ???
Really? If the float valve ain't working then when the engine runs the fuel level will be higher than designed for. My guess is the overflow level is quite bit higher than the 'normal' level? So a high fuel level in the bowl means more gets sucked up during suction as its easier to suck up...all theoretical guessing at this stage.
I'll check the overflow during running, but as you said i don't think there will be any.

Points! Sorry - will look into this weekend i hope.


Sounds good, i think the charging system is working ok. If it was me I would just take a volt reading, then compare it with one about 12 or 24 hours later, long as it is within about 0.1 - 0.5 volts of each other it means the battery is holding its charge ok.
Sounds good. Thanks again for the reference figures on voltage. Should be able to see this weekend.

Btw, even with a reading of ~12.4V when off the electric start still doesn't work (works with a car battery).
Does the voltage need to be higher, as i thought someone said the Amp-hr rating didnt' play a part here?


Just a thought, have you checked the spark plug gap?
Nope, but its a new NGK spark plug, so hoping it will be ok? The box doesn't even say what the gap should be...will check my bike manual.


Did you clean out the lines and tank too? WhAt about the air filter?
Didn't bother cleaning lines or tank. Tank interior looks good - some pitting rust, but there looks to be a decent fuel filter in place. I put good fuel and oil in the tanks and let it drain out so the lines should be good enough.
Air filter looks like it will fall apart if i tamper with it...But the result is the same regardless of the airfilter being in/out.

[FJRider]

Really? If the float valve ain't working then when the engine runs the fuel level will be higher than designed for. My guess is the overflow level is quite bit higher than the 'normal' level? So a high fuel level in the bowl means more gets sucked up during suction as its easier to suck up...all theoretical guessing at this stage.
I'll check the overflow during running, but as you said i don't think there will be any.

Points! Sorry - will look into this weekend i hope.

You said a "few extra drops of fuel" ... which will NOT result in 30% throttle available.

I'm more inclined to say "Points could be the issue" ... but if the tank outlet at the filter is blocked (LOOK and check it) the lack of throttle will be not getting enough fuel as the engine runs. The overflow will leak fuel out to the ground if the float valve is not shutting off. It would need to be REALLY bad to do it with the engine running.

Take the fuel line off the carb and check fuel flow. (ON or PRIME)



Didn't bother cleaning lines or tank. Tank interior looks good - some pitting rust, but there looks to be a decent fuel filter in place. I put good fuel and oil in the tanks and let it drain out so the lines should be good enough.
Air filter looks like it will fall apart if i tamper with it...But the result is the same regardless of the airfilter being in/out.

Get a new fuel filter. Inline cheapies are good. "Looks can be deceiving"... ok ... but they don't let much past if they've been on a while.
Take the fuel tap off and check the filter above the tap. Make sure the tap isn't blocked.

Last word ... IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED ... neither will we be.

[tri boy]

I sell the Shorai LiFePO4 batteries which are the best in the world,
I'd back a Yuasa over any of the new style anyday. Especially after hearing of circuit card failures on the Shorai.
Last thing I'd want on an electric start big thunper half way through the 42 traverse.MHO
(Both reports came from a well trusted dealer employee).

[Skiwi]

From whatyou jave told us so far I would leave the meter on the battery when you push the starter, if it dips below about 11.5 I would be inclined to replace the battery.

[Edbear]

I'd back a Yuasa over any of the new style anyday. Especially after hearing of circuit card failures on the Shorai.
Last thing I'd want on an electric start big thunper half way through the 42 traverse.MHO
(Both reports came from a well trusted dealer employee).

Well all I can say is I have sold over 1,000 batteries from wee scooters to big block V8's, for race bikes to helicopter starter packs to light aircraft to high compression modified Harley's. From TQ Midgets to F5000 racers. I can point to only four batteries that I reckon are genuine battery failures and not due to misuse or abuse or vehicle fault. Even the two batteries I imported two years ago for appraisal are still going strong.

[_Shrek_]

Btw, even with a reading of ~12.4V when off the electric start still doesn't work (works with a car battery).
Does the voltage need to be higher, as i thought someone said the Amp-hr rating didnt' play a part here?

you use a heap of batt power in starting anything - & having to use a car batt to start tells you that you need to replace it, we had a few probs getting the boys XT600 going once we did the carb etc.... we replaced the batt & plug 1st touch on the button & away it went...

[chinny]

You said a "few extra drops of fuel" ... which will NOT result in 30% throttle available.

I'm more inclined to say "Points could be the issue" ... but if the tank outlet at the filter is blocked (LOOK and check it) the lack of throttle will be not getting enough fuel as the engine runs. The overflow will leak fuel out to the ground if the float valve is not shutting off. It would need to be REALLY bad to do it with the engine running.

Take the fuel line off the carb and check fuel flow. (ON or PRIME)




Get a new fuel filter. Inline cheapies are good. "Looks can be deceiving"... ok ... but they don't let much past if they've been on a while.
Take the fuel tap off and check the filter above the tap. Make sure the tap isn't blocked.

Last word ... IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED ... neither will we be.

Since you were right about the spark plug i figured you'd be right about the points - bingo. Only found one set of points, but instead of 2 flat plates i found they had a mountain and valley thing gonig on. One point had been depositing/fusing onto the other.
Tried filing them flat while in place but will have to take them out and file them deeper as this didn't make a difference. Else i will look at replacing them.
Probably are other issues in the electrical department that need attention too.

Will check tap + filter but sounds like its not the fuel anymore.

Regarding the fuel lines i just meant that if its not likely to be the cause of the problem then i'll let it until i get to the bottom of the actual problem. It sounded like a 'nice to have' to me that's why i didn't replace them.

Re: battery voltage using starter motor - drops to as low as 5V when i press the starter so guess the battery's not that good. Good enough in the interim to start bike and troubleshoot.

Looks like a fair bit ahead of me. Will see how i fit it in timewise as i've been doing late nights so far trying to get the bike to run.

Cheers.

[unstuck]

Replace the condenser along with the points, if it has one.:Punk:

[FJRider]

Since you were right about the spark plug i figured you'd be right about the points - bingo. Only found one set of points, but instead of 2 flat plates i found they had a mountain and valley thing gonig on. One point had been depositing/fusing onto the other.
Tried filing them flat while in place but will have to take them out and file them deeper as this didn't make a difference. Else i will look at replacing them.
Probably are other issues in the electrical department that need attention too.

Will check tap + filter but sounds like its not the fuel anymore.



Replacing the points and fuel filter will be a major part of eliminating problems. A piece of coarse wet and dry folded sandpaper between the points does wonders.

The "mountain and Valley thing" sounds like the problem.

[chinny]

Replace the condenser along with the points, if it has one.:Punk:

Good idea. The condenser is probably buggered given the condition of the points.


Replacing the points and fuel filter will be a major part of eliminating problems. A piece of coarse wet and dry folded sandpaper between the points does wonders.

The "mountain and Valley thing" sounds like the problem.

Yea some serious metal transfer there.
Yeap will give the wet n dry a go. If that doesn't work i'll look into replacing them, but not too sure how to get them off at this stage, also replacements might be hard to find but i haven't looked into that yet. Hope they be standard though.

[FJRider]

Good idea. The condenser is probably buggered given the condition of the points.

If it isn't ... it may soon be. Remove future issues and replace it. It probably wouldn't run if it was buggered.


Yea some serious metal transfer there.
Yeap will give the wet n dry a go. If that doesn't work i'll look into replacing them, but not too sure how to get them off at this stage, also replacements might be hard to find but i haven't looked into that yet. Hope they be standard though.

New saves "side of the road" issues later too.

Points are usually held in place by two (or three) screws. One to hold the main body onto the base backing plate ... and another holding the adjuster arm in place. Sometimes two holding the main body on. With two electrical wire connecting screws to the base plate. Take photos prior to removing it if you are not familiar with the set up. It's easily forgotten how it goes together.

[ducatilover]

Unstuck beat me to it.
Condensers are cheap. If it's fucked it'll be properly hard to start

[Canis G.]

Sorry it took some time to come back to you. I am assuming you were measuring all this at the battery?


Ok some results. Haven't used the charger yet as i haven't found time to put on the charger and monitor so it doesn't overcharge.

1. Bike off, key out = 12.5V Good charged battery should sit at about 12.8V so something is not up to snuff here.
2a. Bike at idle (no headlight) = 11.9-12.0V Problem 1 - bike should jump up to about 13v here.
2b. Bike at idle (headlight dipped) = 11.4V Problem 1 even worse.
2c. Bike at med revs = 14.4V Right volts here which is good.

Seems like the battery and charging system are ok then? No its definitely not, based on what you have said it may be the rectifier/regulator that is causing you problems (not functioning untill the alternator voltage is quite high) or the alternator is not pushing out enough power until the revs are high - in which case the alternator is crapping out.
Or do i still need to stick it on the charger and do the measurements 0hr, 2hr, 12hr etc readings? Yes, you have to find out which bits are not working..

Give me a yell if you want to test the alternator - gets a tad more tricky from here on in.

[chinny]

If it isn't ... it may soon be. Remove future issues and replace it. It probably wouldn't run if it was buggered.



New saves "side of the road" issues later too.

Points are usually held in place by two (or three) screws. One to hold the main body onto the base backing plate ... and another holding the adjuster arm in place. Sometimes two holding the main body on. With two electrical wire connecting screws to the base plate. Take photos prior to removing it if you are not familiar with the set up. It's easily forgotten how it goes together.

Got the points assembly out today and filed and sanded them down till smooth. When fitted together i noticed they weren't sitting exactly parallel due to my filing being off. But decided to try them out anyway as i was running out of time to do another filing session.
Yep took some photos before removal as i think the position of the backing plate has something to do with the timing as there are notches which line up with a mark on the 'main body'. Tried to return to same position.

Anyway, reassembled, set the point gap and fired her up. No difference. Idle still fine but a bit off now (timing, i think).
So reset the gap and tried again. Much better. Engine now revs through the whole range when in neutral - was stoked!

Took it for a test ride to confirm it was ok, but under load the performance isn't so good. Same problem as last time - hesitates/doesnt fire well when you increase revs. Much better than before, but the problem is intermittent i.e. it wasn't too bad when i first rode off (could still get high revs) but after I pulled over and took off again the problem became worse.


Unstuck beat me to it.
Condensers are cheap. If it's fucked it'll be properly hard to start

Wanted to take out the condenser but i need to take off the case to do that. Munted one of the case bolt heads (they are very tight) so will have to drill that bolt out and probably others too. So condenser will be another day's job.
Bike's not hard to start though - 3rd kick from cold or 1st kick warm usually.


Sorry it took some time to come back to you. I am assuming you were measuring all this at the battery?



Give me a yell if you want to test the alternator - gets a tad more tricky from here on in.

Just what i didn't want to hear! More electrical issues and deep seeded by the sounds of it. Oh well, at least we're slowly identifying the problems..Just that electrical dept isn't my cup of tea.
Ok i'll need to the charged battery hourly test.
Cheers - will let you know if i need tips for the alternator.

That's all for now folks. Hope those that took the day off had a good one.

Will continue to update, but gardens and house have been neglected for the last month :pinch: so probably slow and steady from here.
I'm pleased with the progress so far though. Gives me confidence that the bike is worth spending time on, with the end goal of getting it registered for the road! Will need a stripdown and repaint for that due to the rust, i think :)

Thanks for the help - appreciate it.

[FJRider]

Got the points assembly out today and filed and sanded them down till smooth. When fitted together i noticed they weren't sitting exactly parallel due to my filing being off. But decided to try them out anyway as i was running out of time to do another filing session.
Yep took some photos before removal as i think the position of the backing plate has something to do with the timing as there are notches which line up with a mark on the 'main body'. Tried to return to same position.

Anyway, reassembled, set the point gap and fired her up. No difference. Idle still fine but a bit off now (timing, i think).
So reset the gap and tried again. Much better. Engine now revs through the whole range when in neutral - was stoked!

Took it for a test ride to confirm it was ok, but under load the performance isn't so good. Same problem as last time - hesitates/doesnt fire well when you increase revs. Much better than before, but the problem is intermittent i.e. it wasn't too bad when i first rode off (could still get high revs) but after I pulled over and took off again the problem became worse.




I think new points will help. They aren't that expensive ...

The points are opened by an off-set shaft up the center of the points. Make sure the screws are still tight.

Timing is another issue.

[chinny]

I think new points will help. They aren't that expensive ...

The points are opened by an off-set shaft up the center of the points. Make sure the screws are still tight.

Timing is another issue.

Yea i went looking for a set at supercheap but they didn't have any so i tried the file and sand approach to see it helped any, which it did.
Will try going to the local bike stores and see if they have a set, but i'd like to do the condenser at the same time. Need to get a power drill to remove those bolts first though.

[unstuck]

Putting new points on without replacing the condenser is a waste of time, they will just end up burning another hole in them.:Punk:

[chinny]

Putting new points on without replacing the condenser is a waste of time, they will just end up burning another hole in them.:Punk:

Yea that's what i figured. I'll check the manual to see if there's a way to verify the condenser is ok, but in the meantime does anyone know how? Its just a capacitor, so i guess a multimeter should be able to verify its not buggered? Keep in mind i can't take it out but may be able to reach its terminals.

[unstuck]

Good way to tell if your condenser is fucked is to look at the points, if they have a big burny looking hole in them, the condenser is most likely fucked. Oh wait...................:innocent:

[ducatilover]

What Unstuck said.
Unless you have a capacitor test function on that real expensive multimeter you ought to own with an old bike :laugh:

[chinny]

Good way to tell if your condenser is fucked is to look at the points, if they have a big burny looking hole in them, the condenser is most likely fucked. Oh wait...................:innocent:

Heh fair point :) Yea i checked the points again after the 5 min ride and they starting to burn again.
Just need that drill now to get the cover bolts out.


What Unstuck said.
Unless you have a capacitor test function on that real expensive multimeter you ought to own with an old bike :laugh:


Yea sure, i got that :laugh: i don't even have my own multimeter.
Bike was relatively cheap so i'm trying not to buy specialty tools that will not get used much after the first use.

278328278330

Photos of the dynamo area attached. I have removed the screws holding the points base plate in, before anyone points that out.

[unstuck]

Why do you need to get the cover bolts out again? Have you not got a right angled screwdriver, they are not expensive at all, give one of them a go first.:Punk:
278406

[chinny]

Why do you need to get the cover bolts out again? Have you not got a right angled screwdriver, they are not expensive at all, give one of them a go first.:Punk:
278406

Condenser won't come out unless the cover is off :) No i hadn't even heard of those...
I have a feeling since the force you apply is offset, there is a higher chance of the screwdriver head slipping in the bolt?
But yea, probably worth a shot before i drill out all the bolts!
Find them anywhere can you?

[FJRider]

Condenser won't come out unless the cover is off :) No i hadn't even heard of those...
I have a feeling since the force you apply is offset, there is a higher chance of the screwdriver head slipping in the bolt?
But yea, probably worth a shot before i drill out all the bolts!
Find them anywhere can you?

They DO work. An impact driver for easier access screws that don't want to move.

Hardware/tool shops. Or engineering supply shops. Supercheap should have them. Replace the screws with allen head screws. Much easier next time they have to come out.

[unstuck]

I was thinking you could use the right angled screwdriver to remove the condenser retaining screw, rather than the cover screws. Can you not use some needle nose vice grips to remove the cover screws?

[chinny]

They DO work. An impact driver for easier access screws that don't want to move.

Hardware/tool shops. Or engineering supply shops. Supercheap should have them. Replace the screws with allen head screws. Much easier next time they have to come out.

Will take a look at supercheap, didn't think i saw any at the hardware store..
Yup, will go allen/hex head bolts next time.
Don't have an impact driver..will see if friends have one.


I was thinking you could use the right angled screwdriver to remove the condenser retaining screw, rather than the cover screws. Can you not use some needle nose vice grips to remove the cover screws?

Hmm i dont think there's enough clearance to get the right angle s'driver in..the head of the condenser screw is facing the cover.
I think the bolt heads sit in recesses in the cover, so i don't imagine i'd get the vice needles around the head.

[unstuck]

Have you tried gently tapping on a slightly smaller socket, preferably an old one?

[chinny]

Have you tried gently tapping on a slightly smaller socket, preferably an old one?

Don't get it sorry. bolt head - smaller socket - hammer?

[unstuck]

I presume the bolt heads need an 8mm socket to fit them, sometimes a 7mm socket will go on with a wee bit of tapping from a hammer. Not hard blows because you do not want to ruin the thread, you may have to drive the bolt out of the socket with a punch or something once it is out. I presume you have been giving the bolts a wee bit of crc or similar.:cool:

[chinny]

I presume the bolt heads need an 8mm socket to fit them, sometimes a 7mm socket will go on with a wee bit of tapping from a hammer. Not hard blows because you do not want to ruin the thread, you may have to drive the bolt out of the socket with a punch or something once it is out. I presume you have been giving the bolts a wee bit of crc or similar.:cool:

Ok gotcha - get the socket stuck to the bolt head and use the rachet to get it out. Worth a try. Thanks.
Yea been using CRC but that's not going to get all the way through..just around the head.