Why work? A couple from the UK asks

[007XX]

I especially enjoyed the last portion where they dismiss getting an education.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4764841/Why-work.html#ixzz2JALxd41W

[mashman]

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :wings: :corn:... at least they're not shoplifting.

[007XX]

But they are multiplying... *sigh*

[Mental Trousers]

Apparently they deserve sympathy.

[doc]

But they are multiplying... *sigh*

Cmon Veroni whatever..... It's the kiwi way in many ways. I think you are being a bit naieve. You do live in "Inbreed County"

[Zedder]

I only got down to the part that started with Gina admits. Un-bloody-believable!

[bogan]

To be fair though, the bird in the second story (who does pay her way), looks way more bangable.

[007XX]

Cmon Veroni whatever..... It's the kiwi way in many ways. I think you are being a bit naieve. You do live in "Inbreed County"

1- almost there, but Veronique would be the correct version.

2- "naive". But I don't see what makes me naive in posting an article portraying benefit bludgers in the UK. However, their bludgers are somewhat more trendy looking than ours, don't you think?

3- my comment on their increasing in numbers was tongue in cheek mock despair at the multiplying of morons with a less than respectful and lazy attitude. The gene pool isn't being helped.


To be fair though, the bird in the second story (who does pay her way), looks way more bangable.

Alleluyah!

[mashman]

To be fair though, the bird in the second story (who does pay her way), looks way more bangable.

But she'd also bark at you in a Lithuanian accent to put the toilet seat down... and likely wouldn't stop even with your peepee in her pie hole. She'd also be working all day instead of cuddling you in between changing nappies. She's also less likely to have as much money. then again though, there's no accounting for taste.

[mashman]

" By LIAM BYRNE, Shadow Work Secretary

THE vast majority of people out of work are desperate to get a job but there are more than five people chasing every opening."

Two less competing for jobs.

[bogan]

But she'd also bark at you in a Lithuanian accent to put the toilet seat down... and likely wouldn't stop even with your peepee in her pie hole. She'd also be working all day instead of cuddling you in between changing nappies. She's also less likely to have as much money. then again though, there's no accounting for taste.

Dude, bangable, I didn't say marriable :rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

Two less competing for jobs.

Should be competing for air.

[mashman]

Dude, bangable, I didn't say marriable :rolleyes:

Chauvinist.


Should be competing for air.

No, that's Beijing.

[Ocean1]

No, that's Beijing.

Well they wouldn't be unemployed there that's for fucking sure.

[Zedder]

To be fair though, the bird in the second story (who does pay her way), looks way more bangable.

Sadly, that doesn't make me feel any better.

However 'cos this is KB, someone will probably come on eventually and say how horrible we all are about the "poor" non working couple which should be a laugh.

[caseye]

Hell no, I'd like to hear what their parents REALLY think of their dole bludging spawn!
Lazy good for nothing mongrels who are now in the process of raising more of the same with that attitude. You know, the, the govt owes us because we're poor and down trodden.
In almost every so called civilised country you will find pensioners who receive very little and immigrant dole bludgers creaming 3 or 4 times that while not working and raising their broods thanks to the country's they are in lax attitudes to immigrants and dole bludgers.
No work aye? road gangs, picks and shovels award wages paid each week, as long as you go to work and work, same for any other job where man power can do the same job as mechanisation.
I've been down and out twice in the past 18 months, walked the streets reading meters for nearly a year( minimum wage), finally snapped a better job, pay increased dramatically, as did responsibilities, resigned from that one to go and do something completely different.
Didn't make it, broke me leg ( No not on me motorcycle, much less glamorous and mundane), have fought the dreaded ACC for nearly 9 months, Beat the barstards, starting me new job soon.

[Dangsta]

You realise the story is bullshit eh? If its in The Sun, there's a good chance it's made up.

[mashman]

Well they wouldn't be unemployed there that's for fucking sure.

Of course not. They don't have unemployed people in Beijing <_<


Sadly, that doesn't make me feel any better.

However 'cos this is KB, someone will probably come on eventually and say how horrible we all are about the "poor" non working couple which should be a laugh.

Ahhhhh the politics of envy. Stop being horrible about the poor. It's horrible.

[scumdog]

However 'cos this is KB, someone will probably come on eventually and say how horrible we all are about the "poor" non working couple which should be a laugh.

Got no problem if somebody is poor and trying to improve themselves, I can sympathis .
e with that sort of person.
It's the lazy slack-jawed improvident mouthbreather that can knock up anything with a twat within 10 metres who is 'poor' by choice and has their hand out at every opportunity I loathe...

[Zedder]

You realise the story is bullshit eh? If its in The Sun, there's a good chance it's made up.

Well, the Daily Mail, Express and Telegraph ran it as well plus they were on ITV so maybe not...

[Zedder]

Of course not. They don't have unemployed people in Beijing <_<



Ahhhhh the politics of envy. Stop being horrible about the poor. It's horrible.

Masho, might have bloody known.

[PrincessBandit]

Gina, flaunting fake tan and perfectly manicured nails, said: “I don’t see that we’re living off the taxpayers, we’re entitled to the money our parents paid all their lives.
“They’ve worked so hard since they left school and I’m sure they’d rather it went to us than see us struggle.


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4764841/Why-work.html#ixzz2JRnLxy7n

How sweet. I too would be interested to see what their parents thought about it (if they are, in fact, for real - and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are).

[Ocean1]

Of course not. They don't have unemployed people in Beijing <_<

They don't. Go look for yourself.

More to the point, they don't have dole bludgers.

[Zedder]

Got no problem if somebody is poor and trying to improve themselves, I can sympathis .
e with that sort of person.
It's the lazy slack-jawed improvident mouthbreather that can knock up anything with a twat within 10 metres who is 'poor' by choice and has their hand out at every opportunity I loathe...

Ahh sorry there SD missed ya. Agree.

[mashman]

Masho, might have bloody known.

Perception is a bitch eh... or should that be reality :msn-wink:...


They don't. Go look for yourself.

More to the point, they don't have dole bludgers.

I'd love to but can't afford the fares.

Ahhhhhh, is that what you meant. They probably shoplift then.

[Ocean1]

I'd love to but can't afford the fares.

That's because you're a bone idle git.


They probably shoplift then.

Yeah, that'd be why all the market stalls are out in the open completely unprotected.

What they actually do, and I realise this is a totally alien concept for some, is work.

And the reason they do that is the only alternative is either starving or begging in the square, which is really only going to work if you've got no legs.

[mashman]

How sweet. I too would be interested to see what their parents thought about it (if they are, in fact, for real - and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are).

Maybe their parents are sympathetic to their position? As hard as that may be to take. I certainly wouldn't begrudge that sort of attitude from my kids. Why would I want them to struggle as I did? Why would I want them to face the pressures of inconsistent cash flow that I did? Why would I want to put their relationships under pressure because they've logically resigned themselves to the fact that they aren't going to earn anywhere near what they need to make ends meet with all of the pressure that goes with it? I wouldn't. Having said that, I will encourage my children to get the qualifications they need/want and to find a job that they would like to do. I've got a 21 year old Son back in the UK. He's in his last year of Uni and is already questioning what he's going to do for money. He has some ideas, he has my support, I hope his art degree serves him well in a world where such things are deemed useless. Fortunately I'll not be labeling him a bludger if he is unable to make ends meet and is unable to tick the boxes that gets him that job that others (more qualified, more experienced etc...) are competing for.

[mashman]

That's because you're a bone idle git.

And you didn't even mention my haircut.



Yeah, that'd be why all the market stalls are out in the open completely unprotected.

What they actually do, and I realise this is a totally alien concept for some, is work.

And the reason they do that is the only alternative is either starving or begging in the square, which is really only going to work if you've got no legs.

Ok... that's the way it happens.

[yachtie10]

“I don’t see that we’re living off the taxpayers, we’re entitled to the money our parents paid all their lives.

I remember hearing Sue Bradford say something similar in the CTU about 25 years ago

IIRC it was
"we are entitled to the dole as we will work some day"

Here I dont think they would get much anymore as they are admitting there not looking for work?

[007XX]

They are not completely stupid in the sense that they've done the maths, and yes, whyshould they take a more arduous path if they don't have to?

That's where the system is obviously failing. There must be rehabilitation into work schemes which ends the never ending hand feeding of people lke that.

Sometimes, you have to force people to be morally ethical about their choices.

Give, but put a freakin deadline on it, with either work or education towards work at the end of the benefit period.

Sorry if I'm being over simplistic here, but surely there has got to be some logic applied somewhere when you take money from some to hand it to others.

[mashman]

They are not completely stupid in the sense that they've done the maths, and yes, whyshould they take a more arduous path if they don't have to?

That's where the system is obviously failing. There must be rehabilitation into work schemes which ends the never ending hand feeding of people lke that.

Sometimes, you have to force people to be morally ethical about their choices.

Give, but put a freakin deadline on it, with either work or education towards work at the end of the benefit period.

Sorry if I'm being over simplistic here, but surely there has got to be some logic applied somewhere when you take money from some to hand it to others.

Fuck it, in for a penny in for a pound. Why does there need to be an expiry date? For example. There are 900 jobs and 1000 people. Even if you rotate the entire 1000 people (a potential solution for you?), there are only ever going to be 900 jobs. If 900 people are happy enough to do the work, where's the harm in leaving those who won't/don't work if there aren't enough jobs? Irrespective of how you slice it or dice it, the tax payer will still be paying for 100 people who aren't in work due to there not being in a job for them. Now take that and apply it to their situation and look at the numbers. 2.5 million people, 5 people for every job, meaning there's 500,000 jobs available. What are the odds, given that you have no quals etc... that they're going to find work that pays better than the dole?

That may be a tad over simplistic, but that's how the world is.

[oldrider]

The age of "entitlement" .... beats "earning" any day .... they said it and the system backs them! :facepalm: Tis the modern way! :shifty:

[mashman]

The age of "entitlement" .... beats "earning" any day .... they said it and the system backs them! :facepalm: Tis the modern way! :shifty:

Oh the reality of it all.

[Gremlin]

Remove the Job Seekers Allowance, as they clearly aren't bothering to use it to find gainful employment. See how their sums stack up when they lose 5700 pounds a year :shifty:

The problem I have, is that those that are willing to work to get ahead, have to subsidise these lazy arses that think they are entitled to freeload on the rest of society. Try that a couple of hundred years ago and you got run out of town (assuming you survived the stoning). If you're not contributing, then you shouldn't be benefitting.

No problem with the benefit being a stop gap for temporary issues, it's society helping you because you helped everyone else. Don't make it a fucken career because you have some misguided sense you earned it (or hell, because your parents earned it - how does that logic work for your kids?)

[Brian d marge]

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :wings: :corn:... at least they're not shoplifting.


plus one , pissed meself

Stephen

Tis be the system thats broken tis be arrrrr ( insert pirate inflections ) , I dont blame em at all me heartys , if you need X and in a dead end job you get 1/8th of X , go for it , take the kings coin ...haahaaarrr
The Nice mr key is doing a fine Job , and his shitmates are paying themselves from the booty Arrrrggg

And when the boat springs a leak , they give em all bonuses hahahaaaaarrrr ( try that on the dole )

Stephen

[PrincessBandit]

The age of "entitlement" .... beats "earning" any day .... they said it and the system backs them! :facepalm: Tis the modern way! :shifty:

Sad to say you're right on the money (no pun intended). I was going to say 'generations are being bred with that sense of "the world/my parents/my grandparents/the government/insert source of your choice" owes me (can be rephrased as "I'm entitled...") Then I realised that there have always been those generations throughout history; nothing has actually changed. Except that it probably (hedging my bets here) tended to be the wealthy classes with money, from whatever source it came, that felt that sense of entitlement to their inheritance. I'm sure there were also those of the upper classes who did actually work for their dosh too, but we're talking about the magical "e" word - entitlement.

The thing that sticks in my craw about that couple in the OP article is that it's not just their parents who are propping them up in their "entitlement". It's ordinary tax payers contributing to their lifestyle choice. I'd have no issue whatsoever if the parents of those two bludgers were the sole support of them, and their offspring (of which there are bound to be more to come). No, people who owe those two absolutely NOTHING are supporting their lifestyle. Oldrider, you are so right: the system back 'em; it is the modern way.

One can only hope that people such as these are in the minority of society. There will always be people who struggle for money, including the working poor (thanks Jacinda for bringing that phrase back to peoples' awareness) who would rather work when they could be financially better of by bludging, but to gloat about it... :ar15:

[Grizzo]

Fuck me, talk about bottom of the gene pool:facepalm:

[unstuck]

Fuck that. This is my 4th day of unemployment, and I am bored shitless already. I know guy down here that have been on the dole for fucking years, and no one seems to be making them get jobs either, must pay well though because they all have flatscreen tvs and playstations and shit.:confused:

[SMOKEU]

It looks like they have more in common with Maoris than we first thought.

[Ocean1]

There must be rehabilitation into work schemes which ends the never ending hand feeding of people lke that.


They actually are genuinely disadvantaged, the dole option was there right through their upbringing and education, even then providing reassurance that if they failed in anything they'd still be OK. If they'd been introduced to real world cause and effect examples 10 years ago they may well have been a bit more motivated to achieve.


That may be a tad over simplistic, but that's how the world is.

It's not simplistic at all. But you wheel that out every chance you get, and it's just plain wrong.

If they can't get a job paying what they want it's because they want too much, same as most of the dole bludgers here.

[craigdek]

Don't know why anyone is even bitching. Send their white asses to South Africa. Then no jobs or benefits so nothing to bitch about. That's why I'm here. Back where I lived only 25% of work force may be white no matter the qualification. At least they have food and a house and clothes. They should kiss tax payers asses.

[Banditbandit]

But they are multiplying... *sigh*

"You must spread ..." - Yeah ... that's right ...

[Banditbandit]

It looks like they have more in common with Maoris than we first thought.

Come on - even you can do better than that ...

Did you know that in 2010 the Māori economy assset base was $36.9billion ??? That the biggest group of owners of Fonterra (New Zealand's largest company ) are Māori ??? That means there are more Māōri diary farmers than Pākehā dairy farmers .. (Probably a scarey thought for the racists ... )

We are not the dole bludgers you think we are (I probably pay more tax a week than you get in benefits ... am I supporting you?)

[bogan]

Come on - even you can do better than that ...

Did you know that in 2010 the Māori economy assset base was $36.9billion ??? That the biggest group of owners of Fonterra (New Zealand's largest company ) are Māori ??? That means there are more Māōri diary farmers than Pākehā dairy farmers .. (Probably a scarey thought for the racists ... )

We are not the dole bludgers you think we are (I probably pay more tax a week than you get in benefits ... am I supporting you?)

Just to clairfy, whats the non maori asset base? And does 'the biggest group' mean they are just the largest asset holders by group, or that they own a majority of the total?

He was probably drawing the parallel to the sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw. Only a minority of maoris have this of course...

[mashman]

plus one , pissed meself

Stephen

Tis be the system thats broken tis be arrrrr ( insert pirate inflections ) , I dont blame em at all me heartys , if you need X and in a dead end job you get 1/8th of X , go for it , take the kings coin ...haahaaarrr
The Nice mr key is doing a fine Job , and his shitmates are paying themselves from the booty Arrrrggg

And when the boat springs a leak , they give em all bonuses hahahaaaaarrrr ( try that on the dole )

Stephen

... or they blame the baderer pirates who fly a different coloured flag... but it's just so wrong that people should be trying to make the best of their situation.



It's not simplistic at all. But you wheel that out every chance you get, and it's just plain wrong.

If they can't get a job paying what they want it's because they want too much, same as most of the dole bludgers here.

Yes it is. X people - Y jobs = X people who have to claim dole to earn money to live. The only reason you see it as not being simplistic, is because you complicate it with reasons as to why the unemployed should be working. Fuckin hilarious given the mathematical equation I started with... and I find it highly amusing, more than highly amusing, that supposed intelligent people ignore the facts of the situation and decide that a cull is required because someone is receiving their money. Even more funny when that excuse is rolled out by the "bludgers" in that they're just using the taxation that their parent have paid. It's a tragic comedy. So show me where it's wrong instead of stomping your feet and waving your pointy finger.

No doubt that is one of the reasons for unemployment, but there will be someone along to take those jobs at some point, why stress about it, why waste time, energy and money researching and creating policy that does fuck all to address the underlying issue... but more is used to appeal to the pitchfork brigades emotions in order to get their vote. On the positive side, the smoke and mirrors do seem to be working well.

Please see my avatar for further information.

[Banditbandit]

Just to clairfy, whats the non maori asset base?

Unsure ... you can use google just as well as I can ..



And does 'the biggest group' mean they are just the largest asset holders by group,or that they own a majority of the total?

The former - largest assest hlder group - as I understand Fonterra ownership - one farm = one share


He was probably drawing the parallel to the sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw. Only a minority of maoris have this of course...

He was being a typical ignorant racist perpetrating racial stereotyping ...

But I don't get this - "sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw" - what do you mean by that ???

[Banditbandit]

They actually are genuinely disadvantaged, the dole option was there right through their upbringing and education, even then providing reassurance that if they failed in anything they'd still be OK. If they'd been introduced to real world cause and effect examples 10 years ago they may well have been a bit more motivated to achieve.



It's not simplistic at all. But you wheel that out every chance you get, and it's just plain wrong.

If they can't get a job paying what they want it's because they want too much,

Yeah - I an agree with you to this pioint .. the system has set up this situation - and these people are taking advantage of that .. and yes, they want too much ..

The benefit system was designed as a safety net for those who need it - but it has become a system which provides a comfortable middle class life style for lazy bludgers ... cut the benfits back to subsistence level ... so even minimum wage pays more ... but that will only work if there are enough jobs in the economy - and right now there are not ...



same as most of the dole bludgers here.


Same as SOME dole bludgers here ..

[bogan]

Unsure ... you can use google just as well as I can ..




The former - largest assest hlder group - as I understadn Fonterra ownership - one farm = one share



He was being a typical ignorant racist perpetrating racial stereotyping ...

But I don't get this - "sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw" - what do you mean by that ???

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

Yeh probably he was, still an interesting parallel.
What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

[Banditbandit]

Just to clairfy, whats the non maori asset base? And does 'the biggest group' mean they are just the largest asset holders by group, or that they own a majority of the total?



OK . here's the whole report on the Māori economy in 2010

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/publications/the-asset-base-income-expenditure-and-gdp-of-the-2010/download/met-rep-assetbaseincexpend-2011.pdf



I can't find a total assest base figure ... Try these for a comparison .. in 2010 our GDP was $162.40billion ... Māori enterprise earnings (business sector) in the same year were $22.2billion ... household earnings (workers) was $14.8billion ...

From the same report as I got these figures - not the same as the above report (http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/fact-sheets/the-maori-economy/download/tpk-maorieconomy-2012.pdf)

"Research commissioned by Te Puni Kökiri in 2010 on Māori Science and Innovation found successful alignment with the needs of Māori entities would potentially lead to:

• an additional $12 billion per annum in GDP for the Māori economy by 2061

• an additional 150,000 jobs per annum in New Zealand’s economy by 2061

• more than 50,000 of these jobs in professional occupations

• approximately 30,000 of these jobs in skilled trades

• a boost to New Zealand’s per capita GDP of between $4,800 tob $7,500 per annum by 2061

• an expansion of New Zealand’s export sector by an additional $12 billion by 2061."

And racist people in this country continue to call us dole bludgers, and people waiting for handouts ... These kinds of figures give the lie to that ..

[Ocean1]

Yes it is. X people - Y jobs = X people who have to claim dole to earn money to live. The only reason you see it as not being simplistic, is because you complicate it with reasons as to why the unemployed should be working.

It's not simple enough. If they're not working and they could be then the natural consequences of their decision is that they starve. Nice and simple.

The complexity of a system that makes someone else responsible for their decision is beyond belief, some people even imagine that work isn't needed in order to survive. Indeed, one or two benighted imbeciles conclude that not only is work not nescessary but that money isn't the natural product of work and can be dispensed with altogether.

Like I said, they're worth what they earn, if they can't find a job that pays what they want then the fault's not that of any lack of jobs, the fact is they're not worth the pay they want. That's the simple answer, right there: TANSTFL.

Now fuck off and work some more, there's more bludgers that're going to be needing a larger house soon.

[Zedder]

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

Yeh probably he was, still an interesting parallel.
What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

Hoi, I resent the reference to research not catching on around here. I do research, I like it actually, always have done, it's good to get the facts. Bloody engineers...

[Banditbandit]

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

See - all good things come to those who are patient and wait ...


Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

I never claimed they were a majority - or that Māori farmers out-numbered non-Māori ... the point I am trying to make is that Māori are not siting around on the dole or with their hands out - we are making significant contributions to the New Zealand economy - working hard and paying taxes .. sure there are Māori on the dole .. and so are non-Māori on the dole ...

Did you know that as a percetange of the population, a higher percentage of Māōri are in tertiary education than non-Māōri? So a higher percentage of Māori are tryign to gain qualificiations and do better in life than the percentage of non-Māori who are?

and yet we get slammed with the same racist dole bludger criticism ...


What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

Hmm ... I see it from the point of view that we are claiming reparation for the unjustified acts of the past by the European-derived people who came here post 1800 .... Imagine if we had not lost so much of our land in the colonizing process - where would we be today? (and don't say still running around in grass skirts - that's becoming such a laughable response ... )

[Banditbandit]

Now let's get back to the actual point of the thread ..

The system has created a situation where people can earn more from benefits than from jobs ... and stupid/greedy/lazy people take advantage of that ...

There will always be stupid/greed/lazy people - we can't change that - so let's change the system that allows them to prosper ...

I find it also incredibly stupid that student allownace pays less than the dole ... so if a person on the dole wants to become a student to get a job - then they have to take a cut in income .. what sort of incentive is that ??? Heaps stay on the dole and get more money ..

Let's change all that ... (I'd even think about voting National if they ever come up with a better benefit scheme - one that assists peope who really need it .. but doesn't allow this situation .. )

PS Note that I said "think about votiong National" - thats not a promise to actually do it ..

[bogan]

OK . here's the whole report on the Māori economy in 2010

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/publications/the-asset-base-income-expenditure-and-gdp-of-the-2010/download/met-rep-assetbaseincexpend-2011.pdf



I can't find a total assest base figure ... Try these for a comparison .. in 2010 our GDP was $162.40billion ... Māori enterprise earnings (business sector) in the same year were $22.2billion ... household earnings (workers) was $14.8billion ...

From the same report as I got these figures - not the same as the above report (http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/fact-sheets/the-maori-economy/download/tpk-maorieconomy-2012.pdf)

"Research commissioned by Te Puni Kökiri in 2010 on Māori Science and Innovation found successful alignment with the needs of Māori entities would potentially lead to:

• an additional $12 billion per annum in GDP for the Māori economy by 2061

• an additional 150,000 jobs per annum in New Zealand’s economy by 2061

• more than 50,000 of these jobs in professional occupations

• approximately 30,000 of these jobs in skilled trades

• a boost to New Zealand’s per capita GDP of between $4,800 tob $7,500 per annum by 2061

• an expansion of New Zealand’s export sector by an additional $12 billion by 2061."

And racist people in this country continue to call us dole bludgers, and people waiting for handouts ... These kinds of figures give the lie to that ..

Jeez you're easily offended, I said some were always looking for handouts, why do you try and defend those people by giving me figures about the other ones who are doing something useful.

Bottom line, if somebody is able but too lazy to work (or otherwise do something useful with their time), and feels that other people have an obligation to support them. Then I won't respect them. Regardless of whether they are taking advantage of the UK welfare system, NZ's Dole, DPB, treaty claims, or whatever. Surely we can agree on that?

[Banditbandit]

Bottom line, if somebody is able but too lazy to work (or otherwise do something useful with their time), and feels that other people have an obligation to support them. Then I won't respect them. Regardless of whether they are taking advantage of the UK welfare system, NZ's Dole, DPB, treaty claims, or whatever. Surely we can agree on that?

I swapped aroudn the order .. Fuck Yes - we can and do agree on that .. I dont respect them either ... but we can't change the people easily - we CAN change the system so they don't take advantage of it so easily ..


Jeez you're easily offended, I said some were always looking for handouts, why do you try and defend those people by giving me figures about the other ones who are doing something useful.

Yeah .. I am a bit tetchy - been listening to racist crap all my life and get a little testy on it ... the evidence shows that Māori are contributing to the econmy - on a significant scale ... the racist cocksuckers refuse to see it juist keep perpetrating the same racist bullshit (and wonder why we get pissed off at them) ... just watch as others come in and comment ...

[ducatilover]

Lots of handbags in here!

Mashy, hypothetical X and Y situation:
When X = 1000 people and Y = 800 jobs
If 200 more jobs are created, what happens to the 500 people working for WINZ? :facepalm:

[mashman]

It's not simple enough. If they're not working and they could be then the natural consequences of their decision is that they starve. Nice and simple.

The complexity of a system that makes someone else responsible for their decision is beyond belief, some people even imagine that work isn't needed in order to survive. Indeed, one or two benighted imbeciles conclude that not only is work not nescessary but that money isn't the natural product of work and can be dispensed with altogether.

Like I said, they're worth what they earn, if they can't find a job that pays what they want then the fault's not that of any lack of jobs, the fact is they're not worth the pay they want. That's the simple answer, right there: TANSTFL.

Now fuck off and work some more, there's more bludgers that're going to be needing a larger house soon.

I get it, I really do. Once upon a not so long ago I thought in exactly the same way. I don't anymore. Yes the reality would be that they should starve and die because they don't work. That'll get messy, very, very messy. Failing that, you'll end up paying even more for keeping them in prison... unless you'd like some form of Sharia Law brought in.

Making someone else responsible for their decision? Eh? How does that work? The system is a set up to avoid the chaos of a world where millions of jobs really aren't really required. There are many jobs that are counter-productive to resource usage, environment etc... but that's another story and one that is also based in undebunkable fact... however as long as your world view allows you to sleep at nights, I say go for it chum.

Awesome. It's not the job that has shit pay, it's that the person doing the job is shit. That'll be troll then. That or that's one of them thar GOLD moments that can never be relived.

Will do and am doing... the man needs his pound of flesh.

[mashman]

Lots of handbags in here!

Mashy, hypothetical X and Y situation:
When X = 1000 people and Y = 800 jobs
If 200 more jobs are created, what happens to the 500 people working for WINZ? :facepalm:

:killingme... the same as what happens to those who are replaced by technology... but you're being ridiculous, they system is sound, just blame the people for losing their jobs... after all they must deserve it for having been shit.

[ducatilover]

Starve and die without a job?

FFS, can't anyone grow their own food these days? :facepalm: Are people this fucking retarded.

[ducatilover]

:killingme... the same as what happens to those who are replaced by technology... but you're being ridiculous, they system is sound, just blame the people for losing their jobs... after all they must deserve it for having been shit.

I should never doubt the system.

We need to creat moar jobz, John Key said he was doing this.
I haven't seen any nice new jobs?

[mashman]

Starve and die without a job?

FFS, can't anyone grow their own food these days? :facepalm: Are people this fucking retarded.

Well you won't have money for land, seeds, tools etc...


I should never doubt the system.

We need to creat moar jobz, John Key said he was doing this.
I haven't seen any nice new jobs?

Good man. Jobs are everywhere, open your fuckin eyes... if you want one that is :laugh:

[Banditbandit]

Lots of handbags in here!

Mashy, hypothetical X and Y situation:
When X = 1000 people and Y = 800 jobs
If 200 more jobs are created, what happens to the 500 people working for WINZ? :facepalm:

They retrain as builders and get sent to ChCh ????

[mashman]

They retrain as builders and get sent to ChCh ????

Oh, so we've got educators then. Who have they been teaching all this time :innocent:?

[Banditbandit]

Starve and die without a job?

FFS, can't anyone grow their own food these days? :facepalm: Are people this fucking retarded.

Yes .. I hate to tell you - but yes, they are ... lost the art of growing food .... let alone knowing how to gather the wild stuff and process it to eat it ...

FFS ... there is so much food growing in and around this country (without stealing it) that people should not be starving ...

[Banditbandit]

Oh, so we've got educators then. Who have they been teaching all this time :innocent:?

FUCK YES !!!! We have got the educators ... we can't get enough students to fill our courses ... trades that is .. we can get an over-supply of fucking useless "professionals" - lawyers, accountants, office jobsworths ...

[ducatilover]

Well you won't have money for land, seeds, tools etc...



Good man. Jobs are everywhere, open your fuckin eyes... if you want one that is :laugh:
Build your house in a public domain :bleh: edible shit is everywhere.

I'd like a job upgrade, but that's my responsibility, my polishing business isn't the fruitiest giver :no: but I reckon my mad-az skills with motors and things what go brum will help out once I can relocate to an area where there are actually people! I'd rather polish crap all day than sit on my thumb earing $140 of your tax a week :laugh:
The occasional relief milking pays bloody well though


They retrain as builders and get sent to ChCh ????
If the opportunity arrises I may just have to load my Volvo up and stroll on down. I can hold a crow bar and hammer.

[mashman]

FUCK YES !!!! We have got the educators ... we can't get enough students to fill our courses ... trades that is .. we can get an over-supply of fucking useless "professionals" - lawyers, accountants, office jobsworths ...

I meant in regards to ducatilover's hypothetical post... but still you raise a valid point in regards to the "professionals". Wonder why so many want to be a part of that group... hmmmmm <_<

[Banditbandit]

I can hold a crow bar and hammer.

:rofl: Yeah .... I can do that too .... it's what happens when I move them - especially the hammer - that's the problem ...

[Brett]

That couple would fit in well in Northland or South Auckland.

[Brett]

OK . here's the whole report on the Māori economy in 2010

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/publications/the-asset-base-income-expenditure-and-gdp-of-the-2010/download/met-rep-assetbaseincexpend-2011.pdf



I can't find a total assest base figure ... Try these for a comparison .. in 2010 our GDP was $162.40billion ... Māori enterprise earnings (business sector) in the same year were $22.2billion ... household earnings (workers) was $14.8billion ...

From the same report as I got these figures - not the same as the above report (http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/our-publications/fact-sheets/the-maori-economy/download/tpk-maorieconomy-2012.pdf)

"Research commissioned by Te Puni Kökiri in 2010 on Māori Science and Innovation found successful alignment with the needs of Māori entities would potentially lead to:

• an additional $12 billion per annum in GDP for the Māori economy by 2061

• an additional 150,000 jobs per annum in New Zealand’s economy by 2061

• more than 50,000 of these jobs in professional occupations

• approximately 30,000 of these jobs in skilled trades

• a boost to New Zealand’s per capita GDP of between $4,800 tob $7,500 per annum by 2061

• an expansion of New Zealand’s export sector by an additional $12 billion by 2061."

And racist people in this country continue to call us dole bludgers, and people waiting for handouts ... These kinds of figures give the lie to that ..

I would bloody well hope that they are contributing strongly to GDP given the prime land etc that has been passed back to Maori. It only makes sense that they be well utilised doesn't it?

[007XX]

Yes .. I hate to tell you - but yes, they are ... lost the art of growing food .... let alone knowing how to gather the wild stuff and process it to eat it ...

FFS ... there is so much food growing in and around this country (without stealing it) that people should not be starving ...

It's not lost, but very much dormant.

I am disgusted when I talk to some women in my semi rural town, and they cackle on about how they wish they could grow vegies like I do on my 800m2 section, and yet, when I offer to help and show them how, a plethora of excuses comes to the fore... No time, no space, don't want dirt under one's fingernails.

Then they quickly bitch about how expensive fresh food is, and how processed foods diet are inevitable nowadays.

Fark it makes me wild.


Anyhoo... Mashman: yes, there are only so many jobs out there in any given field. BUT: there is always work for who truly wants to to work and make something of themselves. If your particular field is not good for you, then try another... But don't just give up and extend a hand ad infinitum.

Admitedly one must want to humble themselves and start at the bottom of the ladder and pay their dues, maybe more than once. But so what?

Once again, I come back to a moral code of ethics that escapes it would seem a great many people. One easy principle: getting money for doing nothing in return is WRONG.

[ducatilover]

Admitedly one must want to humble themselves and start at the bottom of the ladder and pay their dues, maybe more than once. But so what?



It's better than having nothing.
For a "normal" (read: spastic) person like myself, single, no kids etc, I'd earn over double on min wage than I would with the hand out. And it's not very entertaining being an unemployed person (been there)

P.S, who needs some stuff polished :innocent:

[unstuck]

A lot of people are gonna go hungry if we have any sort of large scale power outages, not me, I can eat out of my backyard whenever I want. And I have a love trap for a deer if I need meat.:Punk:

[Banditbandit]

P.S, who needs some stuff polished :innocent:

Therre's a few nobs on kiwibiker who might avail themselves of your services ..

[ducatilover]

A lot of people are gonna go hungry if we have any sort of large scale power outages, not me, I can eat out of my backyard whenever I want. And I have a love trap for a deer if I need meat.:Punk:

I'll cook on the fire :yes:

[007XX]

It's better than having nothing.
For a "normal" (read: spastic) person like myself, single, no kids etc, I'd earn over double on min wage than I would with the hand out. And it's not very entertaining being an unemployed person (been there)

P.S, who needs some stuff polished :innocent:

My halo is seriously in need of some cleaning up if you're at a loss for something to do.... Then again, I probably can't afford your services! Lol

Unemployment sucks. Retirement is one of the scariest words invented as far as I'm concerned.


A lot of people are gonna go hungry if we have any sort of large scale power outages, not me, I can eat out of my backyard whenever I want. And I have a love trap for a deer if I need meat.:Punk:

Precisely! We've got a couple of tanks collecting rain water, a few raised gardens wherever I've managed to squeeze them in, and a girlfriend of mine with some land is going to let a calf with my name on it graze til he or she is nice and fat.

Then in the chest freezer, while the next one is fattening up.

Don't tell Akzle I said so, but yeah, bugger being too much a part of this system! :laugh:

[Banditbandit]

A lot of people are gonna go hungry if we have any sort of large scale power outages, not me, I can eat out of my backyard whenever I want. And I have a love trap for a deer if I need meat.:Punk:

Yep .. there's so much puha coming out of our garden right now ... and a deer trap sounds great - I'm too old and broken to carry big animals too far ... so trapping sounds good ... but my boat goes out regularly and I always have fish I caught in the deep freeze - there's a net in the shed which catches flounder and mullet ... I put the net out at low tide - sit on my balcony with a coffee and watch the floats bounce around as it catches me food - walk out again at low tide and collect the food ... adn bring in the net till later

(I won't even mention the oysters and scallops on the mudflats...)

[007XX]

Yep .. there's so much puha coming out of our garden right now ... and a deer trap sounds great - I'm too old and broken to carry big animals too far ... so trapping sounds good ... but my boat goes out regularly and I always have fish I caught in the deep freeze - there's a net in the shed which catches flounder and mullet ... I put the net out at low tide - sit on my balcony with a coffee and watch the floats bounce around as it catches me food - walk out again at low tide and collect the food ... adn bring in the net till later

(I won't even mention the oysters and scallops on the mudflats...)

Oysters? Scallops?? *whimpers*


I was born in New Caledonia and am such a sucker for seafood! I must start free diving for scallops again me thinks.

[Banditbandit]

I was born in New Caledonia and am such a sucker for seafood! I must start free diving for scallops again me thinks.

Ooooo ... do you have a sexy French accent to go with that cute arse??? (I know it's not the one in your avatar pix ...)

Cute arse - Sexy accent and oysters ...

[unstuck]

I'll cook on the fire :yes:

What you gonna cook? Do you have a food source handy, just in case? Can you get acsess to clean drinking water without the need of a pump, like a glockleman pump or some such? Have you got some way of cutting your firewood for your cooking fire, without having to rely on a petrol powered saw? A lot of people in CHCH didnt now how to have a shit after the quakes. Just sayin.:Punk::Punk:

[unstuck]

Yep .. there's so much puha coming out of our garden right now ... and a deer trap sounds great - I'm too old and broken to carry big animals too far ... so trapping sounds good ... but my boat goes out regularly and I always have fish I caught in the deep freeze - there's a net in the shed which catches flounder and mullet ... I put the net out at low tide - sit on my balcony with a coffee and watch the floats bounce around as it catches me food - walk out again at low tide and collect the food ... adn bring in the net till later

(I won't even mention the oysters and scallops on the mudflats...)

Damn that sounds good. That is the one thing I miss living here, being next to the sea, and so much food. At least I can get eels and trout and maybe a few kura.:Punk:

[Banditbandit]

At least I can get eels and trout and maybe a few kura.:Punk:


I'm heading up to the lakes to try for some trout soon ... and there are kura there ... do you use the fern fronds to catch them?

[unstuck]

do you use the fern fronds to catch them?

Sometimes just use a sack with a bit of burly, but mostly just lift a lot of rocks.:Punk:

[Ocean1]

Can you get acsess to clean drinking water without the need of a pump, like a glockleman pump or some such?

Meh. Minimum moving parts: http://lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/

[unstuck]

Meh. Minimum moving parts: http://lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/

Cool link, cheers.:niceone:

[Milts]

And here is a dissenting view based not on one couple, but on balanced academic research. Favourite quote: "You're not living, you're existing" [on the benefit].
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/oct/04/government-rhetoric-benefits-lifestyle-choice?INTCMP=SRCH

[mashman]

Anyhoo... Mashman: yes, there are only so many jobs out there in any given field. BUT: there is always work for who truly wants to to work and make something of themselves. If your particular field is not good for you, then try another... But don't just give up and extend a hand ad infinitum.

Admitedly one must want to humble themselves and start at the bottom of the ladder and pay their dues, maybe more than once. But so what?

Once again, I come back to a moral code of ethics that escapes it would seem a great many people. One easy principle: getting money for doing nothing in return is WRONG.

Morals and ethics. What's moral about valuing someone's effort based on how it is perceived? What's moral about someone having $5 million in the bank and earning money for no other reason than they have money in the bank (that money costing jobs and removing money from circulation etc... and in the hands of 1 person (multiplied by X richies))? What's moral about a bank that charges interest on money they pull from thin air? What's moral about being humble in word and not deed (does anyone quit their job to make room for someone who has been on the dole for a while?). Plenty of working people earn money for nothing, yet you don't complain because they are perceived to be doing something. I doubt the majority of the unemployed asked to be made redundant. People have bills to pay or they lose everything they have worked for, whilst those who have relieved them of their job don't "suffer" in the slightest.

There are so many wrongs in this world it's stunning. Even if there were no jobs left in the country, there would still be those who were unemployed. Would you be happier then? In the article of the OP, they guy said he has had offers on jobs and I understand his logic for not taking them given the economics of the situation. Take on board debt? Why? Put themselves under financial pressure? Why?

If I lose my job, my family loses everything, potentially worse. Can you tell me why we should bother to try again?

[mashman]

And here is a dissenting view based not on one couple, but on balanced academic research. Favourite quote: "You're not living, you're existing" [on the benefit].
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/oct/04/government-rhetoric-benefits-lifestyle-choice?INTCMP=SRCH

Nope. That's all lies and bullshit. Nice find.

[ducatilover]

What you gonna cook? Do you have a food source handy, just in case? Can you get acsess to clean drinking water without the need of a pump, like a glockleman pump or some such? Have you got some way of cutting your firewood for your cooking fire, without having to rely on a petrol powered saw? A lot of people in CHCH didnt now how to have a shit after the quakes. Just sayin.:Punk::Punk:

Got some beef stuff walking in the paddocks.
Got a couple of big rain water tanks fir the house (don't remember capacity, enough for a one year drought with the family here)
Got saws, axes and log splitters.

I iz a cunt-tree bumpkin ya womble, we're sorted :bleh:

[Banditbandit]

Meh. Minimum moving parts: http://lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/

I had one of these in Hawke's Bay - our whole water supply depended on it ... I'd recommend these too - simple to put together - no issues, apart from occassionally greasing the seals ..



http://www.windmills.co.nz/

[unstuck]

Got some beef stuff walking in the paddocks.
Got a couple of big rain water tanks fir the house (don't remember capacity, enough for a one year drought with the family here)
Got saws, axes and log splitters.

I iz a cunt-tree bumpkin ya womble, we're sorted :bleh:

Good man. Just checking.:2thumbsup

[unstuck]

Why the hell did they ever get rid of the p.e.p. schemes of the 80,s, that was a great idea I thought. I learnt quite a bit on the one I did when I was on the dole for a little while back then, at least we were out working, the wage was not the best but better than the dole.:Punk:

[SMOKEU]

Come on - even you can do better than that ...

Did you know that in 2010 the Māori economy assset base was $36.9billion ??? That the biggest group of owners of Fonterra (New Zealand's largest company ) are Māori ??? That means there are more Māōri diary farmers than Pākehā dairy farmers .. (Probably a scarey thought for the racists ... )

We are not the dole bludgers you think we are (I probably pay more tax a week than you get in benefits ... am I supporting you?)

How much of those assets were handed to Maori from the NZ government?

[unstuck]

How much of those assets were handed to Maori from the NZ government?

How many of those assets were stolen from them by the nz government.:shifty:

[ducatilover]

Good man. Just checking.:2thumbsup Do I get a choccy fush?


How many of those assets were stolen from them by the nz government.:shifty:
Err. None.

The Crown took a bunch though :innocent:

[Banditbandit]

How much of those assets were handed to Maori from the NZ government?

So far - less than $1billion - out of $36.9billion ... No sorry - good try but a deadend ...



How many of those assets were stolen from them by the nz government.:shifty:

Good question - quite a lot really at least the land assets ... the fishing assets ... quite a bit of cultural capital and cultural products ...





Err. None.

The Crown took a bunch though :innocent:

"The Crown" was not in favour of colonization -"the Crown" recognised that the country belonged to Māori (whom they called "New ZEalanders")- recognised the 1835 Declaration of Independence ... did not want to sign a treaty - specifically instructed Hobson NOT to sign a treaty ...

Our problem has always really been with people here - not the British Crown ... just sometimes the people here use "The Crown" as an idea to hide behind ... not unlike hiding behind mother's skirts ...

[Brian d marge]

The things that stops me from living of the land;

A; I live in tokyo , B, Coffee ( need coffee, get to work Afrian people ) and C. I friggen Knackered after a days work for the "man"

All joking aside. Ive been running a few trials; Aquaponics , gardening etc , every year I try something new. Im nearly at the point where I can say "Fk it " and know I will be ok Some sticking points , fuel , coffee, ie some of the stuff I cant grow or it is uneconomic to grow.

Therefore I need an " income " of sorts. As I wouldnt need to earn very much, the income could be low paid farm work. Of which I enjoy.

Which brings me back to ...., the system, which itself is flawed. If NZ banks operate on fiat money , then its flawed and what ever the stupids in wellington say , they cant change that fact .

We aint going to change it sometime soon. So theres no point getting pent up about it , but there IS a point in making securing a "life" or future proofing you and your family. The English couple , sod the system lets take what we can get. ( under a moneterist economy , the "Im all right Jack , screw you " way of thinking will get worse , see NZ for that ) . The boys in wellington , all justifying the money somehow.

The thing that sits in my craw , is if you "try " to live outside, then you WILL be forced to be part of society, try not paying rates or building a non conforming house.

Finally remember the story was in the " sun" and a beat up, like NZ , the population pans out in a similar fashion , most people receiving assistance are of the older varity , Dole bludgers and the single mum are less than half. Those who abuse the system are less still. ( though in england the system is wide open to abuse and there is a culture of benefit fraud and more prone to be abused . unlike NZ.


Stephen

[007XX]

Morals and ethics. What's moral about valuing someone's effort based on how it is perceived? What's moral about someone having $5 million in the bank and earning money for no other reason than they have money in the bank (that money costing jobs and removing money from circulation etc... and in the hands of 1 person (multiplied by X richies))? What's moral about a bank that charges interest on money they pull from thin air? What's moral about being humble in word and not deed (does anyone quit their job to make room for someone who has been on the dole for a while?). Plenty of working people earn money for nothing, yet you don't complain because they are perceived to be doing something. I doubt the majority of the unemployed asked to be made redundant. People have bills to pay or they lose everything they have worked for, whilst those who have relieved them of their job don't "suffer" in the slightest.

There are so many wrongs in this world it's stunning. Even if there were no jobs left in the country, there would still be those who were unemployed. Would you be happier then? In the article of the OP, they guy said he has had offers on jobs and I understand his logic for not taking them given the economics of the situation. Take on board debt? Why? Put themselves under financial pressure? Why?

If I lose my job, my family loses everything, potentially worse. Can you tell me why we should bother to try again?

Sorry, but I honestly think it is your turn to over complicate the situation.

The matter at hand is about people taking advantage of a system without giving back. I have no issues with someone coming in to strife and needing a hand from the government ( I did for about 3 months years ago, and paid it all back once employed again).

Just like in the old days of villagehood, if you had nothing to trade ( be it goods or services), you didn't get food or any services given to you, unless you were a beggar.

Put themselves under financial pressure? So fucking what? It happens, get over it, get up again. There are no guarantees ever, and yet, does it mean it is better to do nothing? I'm sorry, but that's just not how I can see things. These two could go back to school, they CHOSE not to: lazy. Tinking about bringing another child into this world and get another hand out for it... :facepalm:

I guess we are on different sides of this debate based on personal experiences. I don't know yours, but I know I have lost everything twice and got back up, started making smarter choices and am now gambling again by going back to Uni at 36 years of age( albeit with some safety nets in place) so I can be more comfortable to provide for my family.

I'm not saying I'm a paragon of all that's perfect. But I am saying that as a first world country, our priorities have shifted dramatically from what is truly important and that the criterias for benefits handed out need to be revised and people on the benefit should not see it as a way of life.

[Zedder]

So far - less than $1billion - out of $36.9billion ... No sorry - good try but a deadend ...




Good question - quite a lot really at least the land assets ... the fishing assets ... quite a bit of cultural capital and cultural products ...



"The Crown" was not in favour of colonization -"the Crown" recognised that the country belonged to Māori (whom they called "New ZEalanders")- recognised the 1835 Declaration of Independence ... did not want to sign a treaty - specifically instructed Hobson NOT to sign a treaty ...

Our problem has always really been with people here - not the British Crown ... just sometimes the people here use "The Crown" as an idea to hide behind ... not unlike hiding behind mother's skirts ...

Try $2.5 billion of settlements and climbing, approx 40 claims to be finalised totalling a further $435 million ish. Back in the day, 13 Maori chiefs pestered the British Government to form a treaty to protect their trading rights etc. Maori instigated the whole thing.

[bogan]

Our problem has always really been with people here

Hey, look, we agree again :shifty:

[Ocean1]

And here is a dissenting view based not on one couple, but on balanced academic research. Favourite quote: "You're not living, you're existing" [on the benefit].
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/oct/04/government-rhetoric-benefits-lifestyle-choice?INTCMP=SRCH


part of a research project exploring the lived experiences of welfare reform, I have been speaking to individuals directly affected by the government's measures.

So, now that we know the bludgers think they're not getting enough why don't we ask those paying their way?

Honestly, is anyone surprised at the "research" findings? Does anyone ever listen to liberal academics that leap into print at the smell of a grant? Did anyone bother reading beyond the first paragraph?

[Ocean1]

I can only deal with so much dribble, this bit'll do for now.


If I lose my job, my family loses everything, potentially worse. Can you tell me why we should bother to try again?

So that someone else doesn't have to do it for you.

Is that clear enough?

[Ocean1]

I had one of these in Hawke's Bay - our whole water supply depended on it ... I'd recommend these too - simple to put together - no issues, apart from occassionally greasing the seals ..

It's on the long term plan, a small one in the stream through the lower orchard, to pump water about 4 metres back up to the pond that irrigates it.

[Ocean1]

am now gambling again by going back to Uni at 36 years of age( albeit with some safety nets in place) so I can be more comfortable to provide for my family.

Told you engineering was the one true calling, glad you've finally come to your senses, babe.

[mashman]

Sorry, but I honestly think it is your turn to over complicate the situation.

The matter at hand is about people taking advantage of a system without giving back. I have no issues with someone coming in to strife and needing a hand from the government ( I did for about 3 months years ago, and paid it all back once employed again).

Just like in the old days of villagehood, if you had nothing to trade ( be it goods or services), you didn't get food or any services given to you, unless you were a beggar.

Put themselves under financial pressure? So fucking what? It happens, get over it, get up again. There are no guarantees ever, and yet, does it mean it is better to do nothing? I'm sorry, but that's just not how I can see things. These two could go back to school, they CHOSE not to: lazy. Tinking about bringing another child into this world and get another hand out for it... :facepalm:

I guess we are on different sides of this debate based on personal experiences. I don't know yours, but I know I have lost everything twice and got back up, started making smarter choices and am now gambling again by going back to Uni at 36 years of age( albeit with some safety nets in place) so I can be more comfortable to provide for my family.

I'm not saying I'm a paragon of all that's perfect. But I am saying that as a first world country, our priorities have shifted dramatically from what is truly important and that the criterias for benefits handed out need to be revised and people on the benefit should not see it as a way of life.

Oh do you now :shifty:. The situation is simple. There's more than enough of us to fill the positions available. Therefore there will be people who are unemployed. I will be funding anyone who isn't employed. It ends there for me as it is an absolute inevitability. That's simple... yet those simple facts are unacceptable for some because of a whole raft of a whole raft of reasons. Jealousy masked as indignation. As you said, get over it. I take it you object to charity?

I get it. As I said before I used to think exactly the same things as yourself. Good for nothings etc... look at me trying and them feckers doing nothing. I spent 6 years in an old gangster street in Glasgow. It changed my opinion of the people, not so much their actions. My acceptance of their actions is a very recent thing. I did similar to yourself 2 years ago, left my 110k+ job and wasn't due any assistance. Spent 8 weeks unemployed so caught up no the latest technology, went to interviews to find out what the market needed etc... Got a job. The bank were cunts from the get go and if smacking someone in the face for being condescending was legal, I would have laid the lady out cold. I asked for a mortgage holiday for 6 weeks, they told me to fill up my credit card first. Fuck 'em.

No doubt back in villagehood days those without just took and made a living that way... some things never change. Reckon there weren't enough jobs the too? No jobs and no "assets" = you derserve to die. Triffic.

They have CHOSEN not to put themselves under any pressure. I can appreciate that. Especially with a young kid. I wish I had done similar in ways and am trying to get into that situation without having to resort to financially sacrificing my family's well being. Useless stat attack. The US reported that 90% of divorces are over money. Are the two in the article irresponsible? I don't see how they are really. Just very realistic in regards to their job prospects and weighing up how much better off they'd be and not just in financial terms. Happiness has a price and they've found theirs. In regards to kids, I'd love to see men undergo a vasectomy after they have 2 kids... then it'll be all the woman's fault if she has more than 2 :shifty:

We are on different sides and I'd be surprised if it was down to personal experiences (My money, heh, is on world view being the dividing factor). I don't see us two as having had radically different lives. I saw my mum lose everything and send us off to live with my dad. I've lived amongst doley's for 6 years. I've been unbelievably broke with a kid. The whole spectrum of ok, better, better, better, better etc... Not no more though. I have a brand new shiney world view that includes 7 billion people, of which more than half are supposed to live in poverty, I've seen the results of war first hand, and I have learned that the entire system is perpetuated by some useless cunts protecting a financial system that's not only corrupt, but devoid of true morals and ethics. I've learned that it's the economy that is the reason that people should not only have less, but should also have their effort valued by the perception of how difficult their chosen career is. It's bullshit. The lot of it. So I see no reason to persecute people who are stuck in inevitable positions, even when they CHOOSE to live off of the "state". Anyhoo, Wotcha gonna study?

I could not have phrased that last paragraph any better... although my reasoning behind your words looks to be entirely different.

[mashman]

So that someone else doesn't have to do it for you.

Is that clear enough?

Oh FFS. Even though I work, I still have people doing all sorts of other shit for me. So again, why should I bother?

Are you getting the picture yet?

[Ocean1]

Oh FFS. Even though I work, I still have people doing all sorts of other shit for me. So again, why should I bother?

Are you getting the picture yet?

Perfectly.

You're one of 55% of the population that consume more public funds than they contribute.

Congratulations.

You could at least have the decency to feel guilty that someone else is propping up your lifestyle.

[mashman]

Perfectly.

You're one of 55% of the population that consume more public funds than they contribute.

Congratulations.

You could at least have the decency to feel guilty that someone else is propping up your lifestyle.

That's very true to an extent.

Meh.

I do, in some fashion, rather that than reveling in my glorious success :facepalm:, hence the no money thing. Best for all concerned, as well as for future generations.

[007XX]

Oh do you now :shifty:. The situation is simple. There's more than enough of us to fill the positions available. Therefore there will be people who are unemployed. I will be funding anyone who isn't employed. It ends there for me as it is an absolute inevitability. That's simple... yet those simple facts are unacceptable for some because of a whole raft of a whole raft of reasons. Jealousy masked as indignation. As you said, get over it. I take it you object to charity?

I get it. As I said before I used to think exactly the same things as yourself. Good for nothings etc... look at me trying and them feckers doing nothing.

I could not have phrased that last paragraph any better... although my reasoning behind your words looks to be entirely different.

Ok... Firstly, that was nicely written.

Secondly, I don't think all people who are on the benefit are the same, good for nothings. There are indeed many who deserve it, even if for long periods of time. It should be addressed as a case by case situation, not a mass generalisation making a joke of those truly in need.
I am however bothered by those who do see it as a lifestyle option. Why? Because it takes away from those who really deserve it.

Just as yourself, I do not begrudge need, nor do I mind charity. I help in that way when I can, but not with money. Acts are more worthy than words always in my books.

And you are right, our life experiences don't sound that dissimalar, except I didn't see first hand the effects of war. However, it reminds me of a study done some years ago outlining the effects of traumatic events on the human psyche.
The case in study was on two men, similar age, life conditions, social statuses, etc having gone through a train derailing, killing tens of people. By all account a very traumatic event to all involved.

One of the man went on to break into a deep depression, have violent recurring nightmares and eventualy couldn't live with the guilt of having survived and killed himself.
The second man saw the event as tragic but rationalised it and although admitting it was horrible, went on to recuperate and live his life without further signs of mental trauma.

Now, I am not suggesting either of us are either scarred or mentally negative :laugh:
What I am saying is that our views are similar but the differences are based on several layers of personality traits, belief structures spanning from education, and many more influences we cannot account for merely by talking about it on here.
And , we both have our own visceral way of taking in information and processing it into a life lesson.

So that is why as much as I do agree with you, it is only ever going to be to a certain point.

As far as my studies go, I'm not taking up a trade :shifty: Anyone with a pitchfork can just kiss my shiny pen pusher's arse.

[mashman]

As was yours... and stop it, you'll make me blush. Tis easier to write when not working at the same time... yeah yeah, go on, let's have the smart arsed crack about multitasking men.

I agree with those seeing it as lifestyle option being potentially "ungreatful" for what they're receiving. However that doesn't stop the basic facts from being true i.e. there will be unemployment. So to that end there is no taking away from those who deserve it if you see what I mean. There will be X unemployed due to a lack of jobs, not because it has been chosen as a lifestyle by a relative few. The acceptance of that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it, but it doesn't mean that those who have been assessed as fit for work should be financially penalised (potentially then turning to crime, potentially ending up in jail and costing more to house) for not wanting to. As perverse as that sounds, look at it from an employers perspective. Would you rather have the guy who has been assessed and deemed unlucky enough to be forced into the workplace as an employee or the person who is looking for a job, keen to learn etc...? Who knows, taking the boot of of the bad boys throat i.e. calling off the govt dogs and their threats and putting the money wasted on trying to crucify them towards assistance may well yield a different result?

I do begrudge charity, but not in the way we're discussing it. I find it a slap in the face that we're not providing consistent full funding and support to those who need it. After all, it's about helping out right? I understand the reasons why we don't and that's just another tick on my list in regards to ditching the financial system, so thay they can receive what they need and not as much as the budget can afford. To that end, I deplore the concept of charity. Similarly school donations.

The war thing affected me to a degree, but I don't tend to live in the past. Great for stories and putting things into perspective, but in the same token I have a hard time accepting that my past defines my present, moreover I feel that my future affects my present in eminnently more so than my past. I have changed my mind about things in what many see as a radical way, where it's merely me looking at the future and seeing where we're heading given our current circumstances. I believe that if we change those circumstances, then we change our future. I've had this dicsussion with people before and they often tell me that I can't make decisions without basing things on past experience, yet I have done so many things that are out of character over the last few years, I fail to see how that can solely be the case. Pissing in the wind perhaps, but as far as I'm concerned my past has given me some knowledge and that's about it, where my decisions are made in the here and now and are very much focussed on the future. For some unknown reason that seems to be a concept that many choose to accept. Given that

My late step-dad was a train driver and had 3 "jumpers". Really fucked him up in ways, but he eventually got up and got on with it again... although he never slept properly again.

Hmmmmmm. I'm going to respectfully disagree, to a degree, in regards to personality traits, education etc... being the reason we for our "differences". I may try to convince you that my NOW thing is the way to go and you could push back, ahem... whereas someone you know and trust could explain it to you and you'd quite possibly accept it. For me that's where the personality traits come in to play. In regards to education, you must unlearn what you have learned :rofl: and learn to accept that which is right. Obviously wanky, but essentially true. People can change their minds if the decide to, irrespective of education or personality and similarly those many other influences you allude to.

Of course a lot of that, probably all of it, flies in the face of what the experts say and no doubt that would make me a mental case. I have no truck with that as it is merely my observations of how I've changed and what has changed me. And as you say, we'll only ever go to the point we want to go to before we don't want to hear any more :msn-wink:

Not a trade eh... and a damned fine reason to buy a pitchfork by the sounds of things :laugh:... perhaps a head Dr :shifty:?

Holy shit... sorry about the essay of dribble <_<

[Big Dave]

Should be competing for air.

40 cigs a day - won't be long.

[007XX]

That's very true to an extent.

Meh.

I do, in some fashion, rather that than reveling in my glorious success :facepalm:, hence the no money thing. Best for all concerned, as well as for future generations.

Sorry, just quoting this earlier post cos editing that last one from an iPad is a biatch :p

Anyways... Your "now" thing as you call it is not all that uncommon or silly. Most people may not understand it but it doesn't actually make it stupid by any means.

There often comes a time into someone's life ( often a someone with a strong individualistic personality), where the YOU that has been built to comply with society ends up rebelling and starts seeing things under its own individual light. Not rebelling in a " I'm getting me a Ferrari and ditching my whole life" kind of way, but more a re evaluation of what mentality and thought processes one was forced to adopt due to their past circumstances. And I won't push that one, as you already respectfully disagreed ;)

And I can appreciate your viewpoint without having to automaticaly agree with it. Being empathic with your ideas and seeing their foundation of truth doesn't shake my beliefs, and I can take them into consideration without feeling threatened :)

It makes for very enjoyable debates.

Your visualisation of the "things to be" based on the now is a very interesting perspective. I'm not very knowledgeable about economics, politics, etc
I do try though to educate myself a bit more, but I certainly wouldn't try to take anyone in the know on about it.

As far as my studies go, no I am not going to be a head dr Lol
I thought about it mind you, but ultimately, the responsibility of playing with someone's mind would bear too heavily on my conscience. Plus, having left school at 16 with no qualifications, I would have to have so many years of hard slugging, it would take me away for far too long from my children and they are ultimately a huge reason for me to be doing this.
So I have settled on a bachelor of Communication Management. Grand words to say so little. But I have always enjoyed the written word, was even prophesized to be one day a writter (albeit in french then) by one of my college teachers.

[mashman]

heh... I didn't bother quoting you're one before and I'm using a laptop... you are forgiven.

Ach I know NOW (or some variation of) is the way we need to be heading and after speaking with friends, family, "strangers" etc... I've met plenty of people who understand the concept at a high level and would happily do their bit to be a part of that society. Was mailing with Son the other night and he started talking about cultural lag, a phrase I'd never heard of before, but it kinda sums up why we're not doing what we should be. In that we probably know we can get their easily enough, but someone always has to go first to prove the concept. Many a response on KB has taught me that. However I do still have the occassional doubt as there are potential negatives... I guess we may never find out.

Why couldn't I have ditched the wife and kids and gone the Ferrari route? heh. I did disagree, but to a degree :rofl:... I think the past is great for reflection and if only, but it's not a driver for my re-evaluation process. In regards to the two folk on the dole, I think they're light years ahead of where I was at that age in regards to how things work. I don't think it's all hand-out hand-out hand-out without any form of forethought in regards to their future. That re-evalutation thing gives me hope for the future as I seem to see it more and more in "kids" these days. Their learning curve drastically shortened by learning from our lessons. The past, well knowledge that they didn't earn first hand shall I say :).

I fully understand that people don't have to agree and that it doesn't automatically make us mortal enemies, but when it comes to the big things, I think that's exactly what the majority are going to have to do to "enforce" the change. We can only change ourselves, failing that we're coercing others to conform to a set belief which is something I think most of us really don't want... unless of course people are just taking and not giving back :innocent:. You seem ugly enough to be you're own person, fancy running a free country? :blip: You can mass debate all you like then.

I only have high level overviews of economics/politics etc... with smatterings of detail and my knowledge only grows because of those around me and as little reading as possible. To that end I've got a lot of people on KB to thank for that, like the Oscars, Oceans, Bogans, Winstons etc... who give me the other view to consider... whether they know it or not, they've taught me a lot. In regards to the now, I don't see things getting better. If they're not getting better then there's an issue somewhere, a single point of failure usually. For me it's obvious what it is coz I've spent about 5 years thinking about it and the systems that surround it. I'm still learning and I'm prepared to be wrong in order to find out what's most likely right and will happily throw down with the "experts"... who I believe are incorrect in their approach to structuring our society funnily enough :eek:.

Well I be jealous of thy talent. No doubt you'll breeze the degree. I'd love to be able to be as concise with my posts/writings. Mum says it's because I'm not a reader, personally I think I just don't have that talent... too busy reading and writing If Then Else While ForEach all day to want to read other words... especially the lies :).

[mashman]

It still doesn't address the fundamental issue... and as the only way of "ending the 'something for nothing' culture and making work pay" (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/households-facing-council-tax-rise-230635274.html#DzCyr7k) is to use a hammer, it'll catch "Millions of England's poorest households - both in and out of work - [who] are already very close to the edge given falling wages, tax credits and benefits."

"We are cutting council tax in real terms for hard-working families and pensioners, and we are on the side of people who work hard and want to get on.". Get on to what? In think that's the biggest question there is. Where employers are pay freezing and laying off staff etc... what is this "getting on" that our govts whitter on about? These policies aren't people centric... NOW FTW :blink:

[007XX]

This little conversation of ours is no doubt going to end up in pink hell soon ( apologies mods), but I am selfishly quite enjoying it.

As far as politics go, I have always had a total abhorrence of it. I mass debate plenty as it is, what with being a healthy female and all :innocent:, and I must admit as I am growing older, I do find myself intrigued and hopeful that something can be done to help this country I love so much.

But I have two major problems:

a) I don't see how a "free country" can be a plausible end result. Why? Too many variables to be taken into account, mostly human flaws such as greed and unavoidable factor in how people operate. Too big a project to control all to perfection and have everything reliable and running right.

b) how would one stay in power long enough to make actual lasting changes? From an outsider's poing of view ( read here: immigrant), I have seen NZ inevitably go from Labour to National... Then back again the other way so many times. And each times, people were inevitably dissatisfied with the efforts of whomever was in charge. One set of policies starts something, with mitigated results, then the next lot of leaders comes along and changes everything.

There doesn't seem to be any continuity, and I so very often hear people saying " oh what happened to this such and such initiative/rule/ new law, that was good!"
But it disappeared because someone from the other party got rid of it cos it didn't fit their master plan.

I learn a lot on here too. Ocean, Winston, Swoop, Hitcher... These are often my mentors whether they know it or not.
And breezing through, I doubt I will. I'm scared shitless to be perfectly honest but I'm tired of making do with old routines. I need to challenge myself.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm scared shitless to be perfectly honest but I'm tired of making do with old routines. I need to challenge myself.

Buy an old Moto Guzzi - you can be challenged and scared shitless at the same time....

[Banditbandit]

Try $2.5 billion of settlements and climbing, approx 40 claims to be finalised totalling a further $435 million ish.

Surce for those figures? Not disagreing - just askign for the source ...



Back in the day, 13 Maori chiefs pestered the British Government to form a treaty to protect their trading rights etc. Maori instigated the whole thing.

Maybe ... the trading rights were protected by the Declaration of Independence ... and the concept of trhe treaty was to control unruly white people ... not to give control of our country to Britain ... Hobson had been ordered NOT to sign a treaty - he disobeyed his orders by preparing and signing the treaty ...

[007XX]

Buy an old Moto Guzzi - you can be challenged and scared shitless at the same time....

Haha... Eeerrr thanks but no thanks. I like reliability and pleasing aesthetics in my machine, two qualities Guzzis are sorely lacking of IMHO.

[Banditbandit]

Haha... Eeerrr thanks but no thanks. I like reliability and pleasing aesthetics in my machine, two qualities Guzzis are sorely lacking of IMHO.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... I think there are some very aesthetic Moto Guzzis out there ...

Reliability? Well - you have to sacrfice something to get a hand-built Eyetalian motorcycle ...

[mashman]

mass debating through pink hell and back

heh... it's kinda staying on topic, it may last til the weekend... the loooooooooong weekend (have monday and tuesday off, last little lady of the house starting school Monday and the other two ladies returning to school, thought I'd take advantage of the P&Q and get some exercise in the garden, amongst other places). It's novel for something to have not turned into a shit fight for a change eh.

I know what you mean about politics and for 37 years my mantra was, they're going to do what they want, I shall ignore it, I shall be a good boy, will work, pay tax and will die someday. So much for that plan, albeit the last part being a surprise that I won't remember. Since coming to NZ, I've stayed sober enough for long enough to have paid attention :). De youf is where it's at. Older and wiser eh... always nice to leave the place a little tidier than when one arrived, heh. And I agree with you entirely. I watched the UK start to die and dragged my family half way around the world so they didn't have to grow up in that shit... DOH!

Only two major problems :shifty:... amateur.

a) is relatively simple in my eyes. What do you want? Then figure out how to get there. For me, with my evergreen view of an individual, the greedy are a minority and in the main the people in the country are cooperating. As mentioned in an earlier post, changing peoples' circumstances will affect their attitude. We can do that by changing the environment in which we live. If everything, and I mean everything is free, where's the need to be a cunt? A large dollop of "hey we're not trying to rip you off, but in return this is what you get" style education could go a very long way. Although if the population aren't offered the alternative, they can't vote for the change. Are you sure I can't interest you in running your country? Limited need for control as we'd could probably rely on personal responsibility (having voted for a system whereby you know that your effort is required to maintain it, why not let people have their freedom back?). I don't believe in perfection, not searching for nirvana/utopia, just some cooperation in regards to the big shit and the right to receive a kickin should I covet my neighbours ass, amongst other reasons. Do things properly, or as best as you can make them first time around (because it needs to be done and and not to a budget, free remember) and you may find that you get the reliability, functionality and durability (durability is important for me) that you highlight? Iffen ye can be arsed, pop to the Examples page on my site and have a quick read on how "easy" it is to make the country free.

b) Aye that one fucks me off no end too. 3 years, all change, 3 years, all change, perceived accomplishments cut to make way for new and improved failures, I mean perceived accomplishments. It seems to be the way the West do things, democracy I think it's called and yet very few wonder why it isn't working. I'd say that that is by design, but you'd all be reaching for our tin foil hats. The country is a part of a global economy. It must change how it functions in response to local and global changes and it has a limited budget with which to accomplish these things. When unhappy with the way things are going, we change the lead personnel. Similar to any organisation I guess, but unfortunately the "vision" changes too. Either way, all policy is led by economic policy in some way or another. It would be great to do X, but that would be at the expense of Y, so we'll settle for Z coz we need to be seen to be doing things. I have an empathy for politicians in ways, but if they aren't prepared to put their balls on the block and offer something that'll work, we'll end up with the usual red vs blue (just not as funny as the Halo version). To that end there should be no political party's, but more a "council of the wise" guiding the govt employees. That way you can sack the ineffective individuals, retaining the skills, knowledge and consistency without changing the goals. What happens if all of those people are corrupt? The country steps in. I think we're seeing similar things, albeit with different way of communicating it, with the Arab Spring. It started as we want jobs, we want to be able to provide for our family's etc... and the power structure was challenged. There have been structure changes, but the jobs haven't arrived (for many reasons) and so they're still protesting about something. Here, we vote. There, they put their lives on the line to get their point across (unfortunately it's blamed as being a religious shit fight, where it really isn't). In essence, the right person for the right job PM 007XX :wink:.

You need a challenge eh... ok, you've been added to the list of folk I'll contact (all 2 of you) should the day come that I get enough cash in my pocket that I can fund a small group of folk to have a crack at fleshing out NOW... before deciding whether or not to have a crack at getting it to the big table (maybe even leverage an existing political party or two if they're honestly open minded, pfffft)... should you arsed or convinced at the time that is. Ironically it will take money to get to that stage, doesn't everything these days.

[mashman]

Reliability? Well - you have to sacrfice something to get a hand-built Eyetalian motorcycle ...

:crybaby: ... terms accepted.

[nudemetalz]

Haha... Eeerrr thanks but no thanks. I like reliability and pleasing aesthetics in my machine, two qualities Guzzis are sorely lacking of IMHO.

errr...excuse me,..cheeky girly???
Mine is one of the finest in styling,...and err...sometimes umm,...reliability....

[Zedder]

Surce for those figures? Not disagreing - just askign for the source ...




Maybe ... the trading rights were protected by the Declaration of Independence ... and the concept of trhe treaty was to control unruly white people ... not to give control of our country to Britain ... Hobson had been ordered NOT to sign a treaty - he disobeyed his orders by preparing and signing the treaty ...

Nah, I plucked the figures out of the air just to wind you up... But seriously, the sources were the Office of Treaty Settlements and the others that keep tabs on it all.

As far as trading rights and the Declaration of Independence go, what about the French that were hanging around? Check ya history duoBandit.

[Banditbandit]

Nah, I plucked the figures out of the air just to wind you up... But seriously, the sources were the Office of Treaty Settlements and the others that keep tabs on it all.

Cool. Thanks for that. I must admit I haven't looked at the figures since I taught Treaty classes - and that's a few years now ..


As far as trading rights and the Declaration of Independence go, what about the French that were hanging around? Check ya history duoBandit.

Lots of discussion about what the French were doing - they were certainly here .. but the French Government didn't seem to have any interest ... the biggest source of the "French Colony" idea seems to have come from a drunk local (sound familiar) who was trying to get the British to come here for his own ends ... he told a completley ficticious story on a drunken ocassion in a pub ... and the constabulary believed him ... I will try to source this for you ..

[Zedder]

Cool. Thanks for that. I must admit I haven't looked at the figures since I taught Treaty classes - and that's a few years now ..



Lots of discussion about what the French were doing - they were certainly here .. but the French Government didn't seem to have any interest ... the biggest source of the "French Colony" idea seems to have come from a drunk local (sound familiar) who was trying to get the British to come here for his own ends ... he told a completley ficticious story on a drunken ocassion in a pub ... and the constabulary believed him ... I will try to source this for you ..

Mate, in 1831, there was talk of the French annexing NZ. That started Maori down the path of asking the British for protection. French, and American, activity was growing all the time.

[007XX]

You need a challenge eh... ok, you've been added to the list of folk I'll contact (all 2 of you) should the day come that I get enough cash in my pocket that I can fund a small group of folk to have a crack at fleshing out NOW... before deciding whether or not to have a crack at getting it to the big table (maybe even leverage an existing political party or two if they're honestly open minded, pfffft)... should you arsed or convinced at the time that is. Ironically it will take money to get to that stage, doesn't everything these days.

:laugh:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm as far from being PM candidate material as you can make them.
I'm a woman (we know how well that went the last time), I'm French (oh yeah, that'd go down well) and lack charisma / credentials for a position of that importance.

Besides, you really need someone as squeaky clean as possible :shifty:

But I'll definitely be interested in knowing more when the time comes. Writing political speeches was always a possible career choice for me, and I'd feel a heck of a lot more confident doing that.

In the meantime, I'll check out the reading material you mentioned.

[007XX]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... I think there are some very aesthetic Moto Guzzis out there ...

Reliability? Well - you have to sacrfice something to get a hand-built Eyetalian motorcycle ...


errr...excuse me,..cheeky girly???
Mine is one of the finest in styling,...and err...sometimes umm,...reliability....

Hence the use of "In My Humble Opinion". I know of plenty of Guzzis fans but I have as yet to find one I *actually* find attractive.

And I'm an engineer's wife, I don't do unreliable, it's just not done.

[mashman]

:laugh:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm as far from being PM candidate material as you can make them.
I'm a woman (we know how well that went the last time), I'm French (oh yeah, that'd go down well) and lack charisma / credentials for a position of that importance.

Besides, you really need someone as squeaky clean as possible :shifty:

But I'll definitely be interested in knowing more when the time comes. Writing political speeches was always a possible career choice for me, and I'd feel a heck of a lot more confident doing that.

In the meantime, I'll check out the reading material you mentioned.

That's kind of the point of making you PM. You may actually get shit done and stayed done... Someone's gotta do it, and I'm guessing my charm and tact won't work on politicians :killingme.
Ach it's the 21st century, gender doesn't matter... Thatcher did well (so they say), Merkel is doing well (so they say) and in your case, you could be the modern day Lagarde and she ain't exactly oozing charisma and given her credentials and general demeanor I'd doubt she goes down well either :shifty:.

Yet another modern day myth to discredit potential challengers. Tell them that you've lived a varied fun life, then tell them to fuck off and mind their own business and you'd probably be a shoe in :yes: maybe.

Done... as long as you don't mind contributing to policy too. Actually, given that you'd be writing the speeches, you'd probably be better off delivering them too... albeit not necessarily as the PM :innocent: but it'd be silly not to mix the two. Fuck me, a PM that writes their own speeches and delivers them as they were written, radical man :eek:.

:rofl: have fun dear, I mean your highness.

[Ocean1]

I'll check out the reading material you mentioned.

All far too shiny.

[Ocean1]

I know of plenty of Guzzis fans but I have as yet to find one I *actually* find attractive.

Steady on, Mr metalz might not be Brad Pitt but I don't think he...

Ah, yes, sorry, as you were.

[007XX]

Steady on, Mr metalz might not be Brad Pitt but I don't think he...

Ah, yes, sorry, as you were.

:laugh: I did think afterwards I could have punctuated that better, but oh well...

And Metalz doesn't need to be Brad Pitt, he gives great hugs.

[98tls]

The benefit system was designed as a safety net for those who need it - but it has become a system which provides a comfortable middle class life style for lazy bludgers ...

:niceone:Sweet.Had word the other day the partys over and considered doing something about another job,wont bother.:niceone:

[Edbear]

:laugh:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm as far from being PM candidate material as you can make them.
I'm a woman (we know how well that went the last time), I'm French (oh yeah, that'd go down well) and lack charisma / credentials for a position of that importance.

Besides, you really need someone as squeaky clean as possible :shifty:

But I'll definitely be interested in knowing more when the time comes. Writing political speeches was always a possible career choice for me, and I'd feel a heck of a lot more confident doing that.

In the meantime, I'll check out the reading material you mentioned.

Who ever said you lacked charisma???0

[007XX]

Who ever said you lacked charisma???0

I did. I honestly don't think I have that easily relatable to personae that makes for a good political leader (ie: Ronald Reagan, Obama)

[Edbear]

I did. I honestly don't think I have that easily relatable to personae that makes for a good political leader (ie: Ronald Reagan, Obama)

Yeah, but you relate to real people... :sunny:

[007XX]

Yeah, but you relate to real people... :sunny:

For one thing, I sure as hell would sort the freakin registration and ACC nonsensical charges to bikers :facepalm:

But eh... That is all musing at this point eh? :sunny:

[mashman]

Yeah, but you relate to real people... :sunny:

That's what I was trying to get at :facepalm:


For one thing, I sure as hell would sort the freakin registration and ACC nonsensical charges to bikers :facepalm:

But eh... That is all musing at this point eh? :sunny:

You wouldn't have to worry about that if there were no financial system in NZ :blip:

It always has been and hopefully always won't be the case.

[doc]

OK Veronique... what about this then. It's from an email we got friday.

CAN AUSTRALIA SURVIVE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING?

The folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying
for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the
free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own
stuff.

The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and
the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff

on top of the free stuff they are already getting!

Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff have
told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff,
that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean,
prejudiced, and racist.

So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they
need to hate the people who are paying
for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for
their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.

We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more
people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.

Now understand this: all great democracies have committed financial suicide
somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded.
The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the
treasury by electing people who promised to give them money
from the treasury in exchange for electing them.

Thomas Jefferson said it best: "Democracy will cease to exist when you take
away from those who are willing to work
and give to those who would not".


The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for
the free stuff. We have one chance
to change that at the next election in 2013 will we?




Failure to change that spells the end of Australia , as we know it.

ELECTION 2013 IS COMING
A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves!
I'M 100% for PASSING THIS ON!!!Let's take a stand!!!

Gillard:Gone!
Borders: Closed!
Language: Here more than 5 years, younger than 65, then English only!
Culture:The Australian Constitution!
Drug Free:Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare!
NO freebies to:Bludgers and Non-Citizens!

We the people are coming.
Only 86% will send this on; it should be 100%. What will you do?

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's
money." -- Margaret Thatcher

[007XX]

You wouldn't have to worry about that if there were no financial system in NZ :blip:
.

I don't see how you can make a country with no financial system compatible and competitve with World Trade. I still need to learn and comprehend a lot about economics, but seeing NZ as purely a market unto its own borders doesn't seem logical to me (bear in mind this is an uneducated viewpoint, so be gentle please :laugh:)

We need to import and export to survive as a country.Thats a simple fact. So how does that work then if there is no trade within our own borders?


OK Veronique... what about this then. It's from an email we got friday.

CAN AUSTRALIA SURVIVE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING?

The folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying
for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the
free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own
stuff.

The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and
the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff

on top of the free stuff they are already getting!

Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff have
told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff,
that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean,
prejudiced, and racist.

So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they
need to hate the people who are paying
for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for
their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.

We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more
people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.

Now understand this: all great democracies have committed financial suicide
somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded.
The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the
treasury by electing people who promised to give them money
from the treasury in exchange for electing them.

Thomas Jefferson said it best: "Democracy will cease to exist when you take
away from those who are willing to work
and give to those who would not".


The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for
the free stuff. We have one chance
to change that at the next election in 2013 will we?




Failure to change that spells the end of Australia , as we know it.

ELECTION 2013 IS COMING
A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves!
I'M 100% for PASSING THIS ON!!!Let's take a stand!!!

Gillard:Gone!
Borders: Closed!
Language: Here more than 5 years, younger than 65, then English only!
Culture:The Australian Constitution!
Drug Free:Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare!
NO freebies to:Bludgers and Non-Citizens!

We the people are coming.
Only 86% will send this on; it should be 100%. What will you do?

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's
money." -- Margaret Thatcher

Ok, this is all good and inspirational in theory but...

I got a bit of an interesting insight into this particular discussion. The source may make you smile, but stay withit if you will:

My girl and I were watching the kids' movie "Bee movie", in which a bee is tired of seeing his beefolks exploited making honey for the oppressing humans.
Long story short (if you haven't seen it), he convinces his fellow bees to stop making honey so they can get their right to rest and do as they please. No one likes to be a slave, and fair enough, right?

Bees win, they get to keep the honey and to stop making it.

Then unfortunately, the inevitable consequences of such a drastic change catches up with them: unpolinated plants die, so no more flowers, fruits or veges.

What I got from this: beware what you wish for. Theories are all well and good, but the effects may not be something that can be expected in advance, and often be more complex and damaging than staying with the old system.

So, as much as changes need to be made, revolutions are not always what they a cracked up to be.

What I have often thought is that too often, rules are made as a very generic "cover all" measure which doesn't resolve much but pacifies a few. We no longer look at things in detail because it is such a big enterprise.

In my mind, it needs to be voted in that the penalty equals the crime. Example:
- do not allow for reccurrent serious crime offenders (twice and you're out, lifetime in prison, and don't get me started about the cost of prisons) and prison mates WILL work to get anything in there. Because you're not living amongst society, it doesn't mean that you can live off it scot free.

- you own a dog? Then the yearly fee is minimal to cover administrative costs of keeping records of the dog. However, if said dog is found roaming around and causing damages, you have to foot all associated costs, and you get a hefty fine. (PS: I own two dogs and I'd be more than happy to have those terms instead of that BS dog registration scheme they have now).

- push bikes to be registered. It doesn't have to be a lot, but if you use the road, then you have to not only abide by the road rules, but also contribute to the costs of maintaning said roads.

- you ride a motorbike, jandals and shorts are no longer permissible. If you can afford a bike, you can afford some protective gear. If you look after it well, it lasts years.

[mashman]

I don't see how you can make a country with no financial system compatible and competitve with World Trade. I still need to learn and comprehend a lot about economics, but seeing NZ as purely a market unto its own borders doesn't seem logical to me (bear in mind this is an uneducated viewpoint, so be gentle please :laugh:)

We need to import and export to survive as a country.Thats a simple fact. So how does that work then if there is no trade within our own borders?


:killingme... ironically we'd be changing from a physical economy to a perceptual economy in terms of financial economics... and I'll try my damndest to keep it short... erm... yeah. This is a very "simple" overview.

Let's say that the NOW party got into power and you became PM :niceone:... you fought well, I hope you enjoy meeting Berlusconi... in fact someone should be there to video that meeting.

The internal economy has no financial system, but the rest of the world still requires that we produce a GDP.

When we import, we pay for our goods/services at the point of landing in the country. If a good/service costs $10 at that point and that the adhusted for inflation "shelf" price is $50, then we add $40 to the books of the country. After all, imported goods are there to be consumed and they will be, but they will be free to people in NZ. We're just paying the bills and people are using what they need. No doubt in some cases people will try to hoard, to what end I know not, but that's currently what happens and I don't see that changing any time soon. However your population has been educated to understand how our society now works and is ok with an awful lot of shit that would have had KB foaming at the mouth.

In essence the imports have been paid for, it is up to us how we "charge" for their consumption. However we have added a perceived value to our economy i.e. We have paid $10 for the good/service, we have added the wages/fuel/taxes/middlemen bites etc... on to the cost of the good that we would have paid for if a financialy system had been in place and we have added the "shelf" price to our accounts i.e. $50 "shelf" price - $10 cost price = $40. That $40 has been perceived as having been earned.

Exports. We sell a good/service for $X and it goes overseas. That $X covers wages/materials/taxes/middlemen etc... to get the good/service to the docks. Given that we control that price and that the effort that goes into producing that good/service is free, we then control the price at which that good/service leaves the country. we can tweak that price in order to become more competitive without it affecting the the lives of anyone in the country i.e. no job losses.

As we have a free workforce. (we will also have had huge unemployment given that there's fuckloads of jobs in this country that really service no real purpose, laywers, bank staff, computer programmers etc...). In my case I write software for several businesses and that same software is being written by someone else for my clients competitors. Where's the point in me keeping my job if the other guy is better and we're going to end up with the same software? Perhaps we could share the job on a shift basis and we'll both take half a day off (each and every day, fuck yeah!)

Anyway, we have a free workforce. Highly trained due to our free education system and highly healthy due to our medical system (a medical system that baselines people i.e. take blood every 3 months, and monitors our health over our lifetime. Should the blood readings highlight something out of the ordinary, such as menopause, it will be caught and we will have a better idea of what your body needs to replace what it isn't getting any more... being 1 idea). So we're as smart as fuck and as healthy as we can be. We work for free (albeit internally we pay the going rate to generate revenue, but again, that's all perceived money being earned and all going into Banko NZ). We now control how much our personel are charged out at in any given field. Should call centre staff in India earn $20 per day, we can charge our staff out at $15. we are highly competitive in the marketplace.

All of that perceived money is actually physical at Banko NZ. after all we need to pay for imported goods/services and we need to be paid for our exported goods/services.

The books are balanced in the eyes of the world, where's the issue?

Hopefully that's not too abstract and shows how we can compete with just about any country we choose to compete with.

(Tourism: NZ will be akin to an all inclusive resort... as it doesn't really matter who consumes the resource as it has already been paid for).

[007XX]

:killingme... ironically we'd be changing from a physical economy to a perceptual economy in terms of financial economics... and I'll try my damndest to keep it short... erm... yeah. This is a very "simple" overview.

Let's say that the NOW party got into power and you became PM :niceone:... you fought well, I hope you enjoy meeting Berlusconi... in fact someone should be there to video that meeting.
).


Berlusconi... A colourful man, it would be indeed interesting to meet him.

I am currently reading about NOW. I can't deny it is an appealing concept, and you certainly make a very compelling argument.

However, a couple of very important points are bothering me:

1/ assuming that people will have either enough intelligence and / or self control to do what's right. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I think you dismiss too quickly what is fundamentally human nature. Greed, whether you like it or not, is probably *the* most powerful motivator in this world. Yes, you remove the need for money as a physical being, but does it mean it will stop people from wanting bigger, better, shinier? How will you balance out people's needs versus what you are importing and keep them all satisfied in the process?

2/ how will you make sure you have enough candidates for jobs most needed? What makes young people want to be doctors, judges, policemen, etc
Let's not be silly, greed it is. The attraction of of the pay packet.
Remove that, you remove the carrot that has been motivating people for thousands of years.
That is why there has been an increase of academics and a decrease in trades applicants. Do you really think that removing money will get academics suddemly wanting to try their hand at manual labour instead? Maybe, but that is a big maybe, don't you think?

3/I hate to say it, but there is no such thing as common sense. NOW requires for people to understand what they are getting, why they should do the right thing and give back as much as is required (how will they know how much that is?), and stay happy with their lot without ever wanting more because what they need is given to them free of charge. Human nature is selfish... Seeing the bigger picture is NOT often something people can do, because they can't see it. What they can see is their own little nexus and how to satisfy their personal needs.

How will you keep needs versus wants in balance?



Don't get me wrong, I do like your vision. It is beautiful. It is idealistic, and it really makes me want to believe it can work.
If I had more faith in humanity, I'd say you're right on the money (even without an economy :shifty:)

But you would be asking a lot of very powerful and wealthy people to forego what they have, what they have built up over the years. Who would finance you then?

[mashman]

A minority of human beings suck greedy ass...



I need to start to finish NOW at some point... but it's counter-productive to do it by myself and I'd rather do it with a view to actually finishing it ready for public consumption. Til then it'll be a string of abstract concepts.

So you say that NOW seems fine, but people are the problem?

For me human nature is straight forwards (and I hate the term human nature, because none of us 7 billion people react the same to any given situation), but hey, let's continue using your terms... human nature is circumstantial. Put any given individual in a certain situation and they're supposed to react in one of several different ways. The moderately amusing thing being that the way the person reacts is inconsistent, f'instance a man is drowning just off a rocky shore and you're pretty sure you'll lose your life if you go in after him. Some people will go in after him and some people will stand and watch. Yet if it's someone they know I reckon you'll find that most will go in after him.

In regards to NOW. If you take away the most obvious reason to be greedy, the marketing and advertising for those suseptible to keeping up with the Jones's etc... what's the likelyhood that people will react differently? Essentially removing that which stimulates the undesired behaviour, because certain behaviours are purposefully stimulated and will cause a person to react in a prescribed way (although not always). No doubt there are extensive studies that cover this. I believe that it is referred to as social engineering.

NOW I don't believe that people are inherently greedy and selfish. If we were I reckon there'd be much more in the way of chaos in the world. There's more than enough, but there could be less. Wars are fought for money these days, be it technological advancement to be sold on at a later date (even weapons manufacturing :facepalm:), oil, land etc... Very few are religious wars (albeit there is always that threat, always has been in ways, but religion is usually the excuse). Wouldn't you think that if we were as greedy as everyone keeps saying that there'd be more chaos? To me it seems that the minority are greedy and we're labelled as a group under the human nature unmbrella. After all some peope devote their lives selflessly to help others. People take jobs with shit salaries to also help people (the aged frinstance).

Change the circumstances of every individual and all of a sudden you have changed the need for people to actively go out and fuck other people over because it's profitable to do so. Money is a major major factor in stimulating that behaviour. so what would happen if it didn't exist? Would kids who grow up wanting to be doctors, judges or policemen still grow up with that want? I'm guessing that they might.

Anyhoo, in regards to job allocation, heh... you've seen the Bee movie. It's how we do things today. Without certain jobs things fall apart very quickly. Remove the binmen or the cleaners or the sewerage workers for instance. How long will it be before we're overrun with rats and birds and disease etc... Yes we'll have doctors etc... but it's unlikely that we'll have enough. 1 way of looking at it could be, if you don't know what you want to do for a living (essentially me), then pick one of the jobs that needs to be done so that the doctors, judges, policemen can be educated etc... and will be there for you should you be in need of medical treatment, sentencing or in need of a speeding ticket. It's all you can ask really. With any luck we'll have taught (socially engineered iffen ye like) the kids that that isn't a shit position to have in life, but something that needs to be done for all of our benefits... and that when they finally work out what they'd like to do, they'll be more than welcome to go back to school to re-train without penalty etc... Who knows, there may well be more than enough people to cover the menial work and they'll be able to job share and cut down their working hours and replace it with more leisure time.

In regards to needs/wants... as we're still participating in the global economy and we're still going to want and need shit, we'll use the current mechanisms that are place for importing what we want/need. With any luck we'll get smarter in regards to our needs and wants i.e. I have pretty much everything I need or want and I dare say that there are plenty of people in NZ that would say the same. Sure that pang comes along for a Tuono V4 every now and then, and if one became available I'd put myself in the lottery to get it :rofl: or at least I may put my order in for one and hope it gets accepted, but I don't really need it (maybe someone will swap with the V2 for a day or two). Either way, we can still import these things (perhaps we'll skin 2 or 3 years worth, or 16 generations of, iFarts).

I have that faith in humanity as I think there's a hell of a lot of people out there who are fed up with the issues we have today and I reckon once they understand the benefits and the reasons for NOW that they's vote for it. To that end should NOW become a reality and you become PM, then the wealthy and powerful will have to suck it up just as we've had to suck their system up for centuries. I have particular faith in the youth of today as they're nowhere near as useless and lazy as the fucktards make out.

As far as financing goes, perhaps Dick Smith or Warren Buffet or Bill Gates or some other entity that wants to see human beings have a real future might get wind of NOW and step in with money and resources to help dot the i's and cross the t's... I have no intention of doing it all by myself as it takes people from all walks of life and with all perspectives to make something like NOW a possibility. After that the people can vote on it with their usual level of giving a shitness. After all, we just want to get on with our lives eh :)

I don't see human beings as being a problem really as I don't see the majority as being useless and incapable of doing the right thing.

[bluninja]

NOW sounds like a human ant colony to me, or just a shorter name for Marxism/communism....except the bit about only the 'best' software developer having a job :)

Who decides what is 'needful'? Who decides what roles/jobs people take? A DNA test at birth to map out your education and work life? If there is no aspiration, no fear of loss and ruin, where does the drive come from to innovate? What happens if the rest of the globe doesn't want to play?

[007XX]

This is a step in the right direction.

It realisticaly levels up the field, and keeps things fair I think.

http://www.timebank.org.nz/about

[Ocean1]

Who decides what is 'needful'?

Same people that do now. Those with the money to pay for it.

[mashman]

NOW sounds like a human ant colony to me, or just a shorter name for Marxism/communism....except the bit about only the 'best' software developer having a job :)

Who decides what is 'needful'? Who decides what roles/jobs people take? A DNA test at birth to map out your education and work life? If there is no aspiration, no fear of loss and ruin, where does the drive come from to innovate? What happens if the rest of the globe doesn't want to play?

We're already an ant colony... just coz there's money at the end of the rainbow doesn't make it any less so. Unfortunately the best coders are often found in the corner being abused by their employers coz they don't have a fuckin clue how to relate to them, let alone understand that they probably know more about the business than the business does ;).

If a job needs doing, primarily because it doesn't do itself, then it's "needful". We chose as we currently do, but fingers crossed it means that the cream rises to the top and the bullshitters remain just that and are seen for the useless fuckers that they are... I mean the cream will rise to the top because they are the best people for the job. After all, what's the pint of producing the best people if they don't get their shot at producing the best? Money gets in the way. Stephen Hawking wouldn't have gotten far then... so no, I don't see DNA testing as being reliable. We've always innovated, I fail to see why that would stop. Lots of guys tinker in their sheds and produce marvellous bits n bobs because they enjoy doing it. If NOW worked in NZ, I fail to see why the rest of the world wouldn't adopt the model... especially given that the majority can be quite persuasive when they want to be and they have something that they'd like to try. At the end of the day we'd be moving towards exactly the same goals that the current economy is moving towards, only using the resources we have better and likely at a pace that'll make the last 100 years look like the monkeys had just fallen out of the tree. We'll still chuck shit up in space because people will want to explore space, maybe less spy shit and more functional shit too. We'll still want to get to the bottom of the ocean. We'll still want to produce power etc... We'll plough on without budget constraint. We'll likely have at least 2 or 3 people for every job, meaning that we can have more time for ourselves riding our flying motorcycles :woohoo:

[mashman]

This is a step in the right direction.

It realisticaly levels up the field, and keeps things fair I think.

http://www.timebank.org.nz/about

Rainman posted an RSA talk on time-banking last year, maybe the year before. It was very interesting and instantly appealing. However someone needs to value the effort and what is more valuable, the binman who keeps the place tidy or the doctor who fixes people... given that if no one wants to be a binman because you don't get enough time, then you better hope you have enough doctors to tidy up the mess that that leaves behind. At the end of the day it's still a form of currency and open to abuse and open to creating social divide. We're not just trying to replace the financial system, we're trying to offer human beings the chance to become what they can as well as doing the shit that needs doing. More of a values shift instead of swapping one reward model for another where the end result is still the same. Work is work and if I self train I'll have earned 0 hours, yet someone who trains officially will be given hours for their training. I have issues with time-banking, granted not as many as with time-banking, but I fail to see the need for a half way house when we could just go the hole hog and do it right from the outset.

[mashman]

Same people that do now. Those with the money to pay for it.

More likely they volunteer if it's needful, they use money when it serves a purpose needful or not.

[Edbear]

Things would be a darned sight better if even the justice system invoked personal responsibility and enforced restorative justice.

Everyone expects the Govt. to provide everything and "fix stuff" while letting people do as they please without regard for others.

Get off yer lazy backsides and fix yourself! If you don't know what to do, learn it! One KB member I was talking with the other day said the most humiliating time he had was being forced to go to WINZ once and sat in on a workshop for employment. One no-hoper winged that "Yous fellers were supposed to be finding me a job.." The member had to bite his tongue... :facepalm:

[mashman]

Things would be a darned sight better if even the justice system invoked personal responsibility and enforced restorative justice.

And then sends them straight back into the same environment? Nah, that's not enough. It's easy to say yup and nope when it cuts time off of a potential sentence and then go straight back to it. After all isn't that what a parole hearing is for? and yet people still re-offend? Not bagging the idea, but I have a hard time accepting that it would work as well as you may think. Hang on, that sounds vaguely familiar :rofl:... although changing what they go back to along with what you suggest may yield better results :).



Everyone expects the Govt. to provide everything and "fix stuff" while letting people do as they please without regard for others.

They hold all of the keys (pun intended). They run the oversight departments that are supposed to protect the public from the private sector. Who else are people supposed to turn to when the govt tell them to fuck off, it's not their problem? the ever stretched and diminishing services that provide that form of help?



Get off yer lazy backsides and fix yourself! If you don't know what to do, learn it! One KB member I was talking with the other day said the most humiliating time he had was being forced to go to WINZ once and sat in on a workshop for employment. One no-hoper winged that "Yous fellers were supposed to be finding me a job.." The member had to bite his tongue... :facepalm:

Yes there are those who are waiting to be handed some form of lifeline. But measuring those people by "our" yardstick? From you? Gotta say I'm a tad disappointed... and given the "moron" in question is looking for some form of work and may well have been doing so for a long time, potentially having been given many knockbacks because he's being perceived as a "moron helps? fuckin triffic. It's hardly surprising that human beings go nowhere where that attitude lives on. Maybe the KB member in question coulda offered his services to help the guy? Nah, much easier to look down on him as a lazy fucker eh.

Whilst I understand why some people would look at someone else and say I'm surprised you can tie your shoes, it fucks me off that they're written off, it truly does. So much easier to ignore the issue than to do what's necessary because one feels that it's a waste of time. Sounds like the kind of logic that ends with services being cut coz there's just no helping some people, best just pull the plug. Human beings, just FUCKIN AWESOME :facepalm:...

[007XX]

Rainman posted an RSA talk on time-banking last year, maybe the year before. It was very interesting and instantly appealing. However someone needs to value the effort and what is more valuable, the binman who keeps the place tidy or the doctor who fixes people... given that if no one wants to be a binman because you don't get enough time, then you better hope you have enough doctors to tidy up the mess that that leaves behind. At the end of the day it's still a form of currency and open to abuse and open to creating social divide. We're not just trying to replace the financial system, we're trying to offer human beings the chance to become what they can as well as doing the shit that needs doing. More of a values shift instead of swapping one reward model for another where the end result is still the same. Work is work and if I self train I'll have earned 0 hours, yet someone who trains officially will be given hours for their training. I have issues with time-banking, granted not as many as with time-banking, but I fail to see the need for a half way house when we could just go the hole hog and do it right from the outset.

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.


And the need for a half way house is because you are literally talking matter of factly about deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.

Also, seeing how well a concept like time- banking works will be a good test for your opinion that people can truly do away with the greed factor of money exchange for service.

Personally, I'm going to keep an eye on it, as I have been doing since I found out about it a month or so ago.

[Edbear]

And then sends them straight back into the same environment? Nah, that's not enough. It's easy to say yup and nope when it cuts time off of a potential sentence and then go straight back to it. After all isn't that what a parole hearing is for? and yet people still re-offend? Not bagging the idea, but I have a hard time accepting that it would work as well as you may think. Hang on, that sounds vaguely familiar :rofl:... although changing what they go back to along with what you suggest may yield better results :).



They hold all of the keys (pun intended). They run the oversight departments that are supposed to protect the public from the private sector. Who else are people supposed to turn to when the govt tell them to fuck off, it's not their problem? the ever stretched and diminishing services that provide that form of help?



Yes there are those who are waiting to be handed some form of lifeline. But measuring those people by "our" yardstick? From you? Gotta say I'm a tad disappointed... and given the "moron" in question is looking for some form of work and may well have been doing so for a long time, potentially having been given many knockbacks because he's being perceived as a "moron helps? fuckin triffic. It's hardly surprising that human beings go nowhere where that attitude lives on. Maybe the KB member in question coulda offered his services to help the guy? Nah, much easier to look down on him as a lazy fucker eh.

Whilst I understand why some people would look at someone else and say I'm surprised you can tie your shoes, it fucks me off that they're written off, it truly does. So much easier to ignore the issue than to do what's necessary because one feels that it's a waste of time. Sounds like the kind of logic that ends with services being cut coz there's just no helping some people, best just pull the plug. Human beings, just FUCKIN AWESOME :facepalm:...

You read too much negative into my post. There are some very good rehab programs available and should be used more to re-educate offenders. They should be compulsory.

The loser in question was typical of the type, of which there are far too many. He expects others to hand him everything on a plate without him having to do annoying to help himself. I suggest you spend some time in WINZ as an observer and talk to the staff. Not all are like him, some are genuinely interested in getting a job.

NZ's welfare state has bred generations of dependants who have never had to face reality and think for themselves or take responsibility for their own lives. Criminals have been slapped with wet bus tickets for years. Note the maximum punishments for the crime as opposed to the actual sentences handed down.

[mashman]

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.


And the need for a half way house is because you are literally talking matter of factly about deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.

Also, seeing how well a concept like time- banking works will be a good test for your opinion that people can truly do away with the greed factor of money exchange for service.

Personally, I'm going to keep an eye on it, as I have been doing since I found out about it a month or so ago.

Don't get me wrong, time-banking looks like an interesting idea, it really does and if you've had a little look see, perhaps we can do a quid pro quo Clarice, ffffffffffffffffffff.

How much time does a can of beans cost, or an iFart, or a car, or a house etc...? If I am at home 24/7 looking after my infirmed child, am I going to receive 24 hours payment? If I get 20 mates and we form a work party, but actually don't do any work, will those hours be logged? In that we sign-off each others "work". How do I get ahead? Why wouldn't I stretch a 6 month job out to a year? What if someone is unskilled and is do shoddy work, I have still worked, do I still get my time? Do kids earn time at school so that they can get stuff or do adults give them their hours (like pocket money)? Do I earn time when I'm on holiday? If I am injured, do I accrue sick time? Why would I want to become a doctor if I receive the same time as a cleaner? Can you guarantee me that time will not become subject to some form of "inflation" is time-banking administered?

I'm sure you can see that I have quite a few questions regarding time-banking and it may be that you don't have those answers. Yet I'm sure you can see where I'm going with the questions above. I see time-banking as replacing one set of problems for another.

You will also be deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.

:bleh:

I agree that for either system there would need to be some easing. However, in both cases all you're doing is removing the perception of money and replacing it with nothing (NOW) or with a flat rate of pay (communism :rofl: j/k, time-banking). It's not a great leap of the imagination to get rid of the financial system where nothing else changes immediately and only "human nature" becomes the only real consideration. Where as alluded to earlier, time-banking brings in its own issues and also has to content with "human nature", after all, if it's in our nature it won't change, right? Right person right job, build to the best standards we have, be truly agile in regards to resource management etc...
Why not just do it "right" to start with?

[bogan]

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.

But the need to continue to have a money system alongside it will make it fail; as there will then be a time/money transfer rate, and people will see that if they work for money, sometimes they will be better off.

[mashman]

You read too much negative into my post. There are some very good rehab programs available and should be used more to re-educate offenders. They should be compulsory.

The loser in question was typical of the type, of which there are far too many. He expects others to hand him everything on a plate without him having to do annoying to help himself. I suggest you spend some time in WINZ as an observer and talk to the staff. Not all are like him, some are genuinely interested in getting a job.

NZ's welfare state has bred generations of dependants who have never had to face reality and think for themselves or take responsibility for their own lives. Criminals have been slapped with wet bus tickets for years. Note the maximum punishments for the crime as opposed to the actual sentences handed down.

I didn't think the post was that negative... in fact I seem to remember agreeing with you, at the start :). And again I agree that these programs can be very beneficial for those who are at that stage where they are ready to "evolve"... but instead of making them compulsory and in light that there only ever seem to be a growing number of "that type", these programs are consistently being seen as a waste of money. Probably on the basis that "that type" are the ones who frequent them. It's a disappointing attitude. After all, aren't "us" supposed to be the "evolved" ones? We're cutting people loose and kicking them on the way out the door whilst giving them the hard word to shape up or forever be known as the pariah of society. Sorry if that sounds negative, but that's exactly what we're doing and straight back into the environment from whence they came.

I spent 6 years living amongst "that type" Ed. I'm sure I'd get an unbiased view from WINZ staff who get to see 1/100th of what the person is really like :blink:. Sure I had issues with some of their antics, still do to a degree, but I also realise that looking down on "that type" serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever... they're human beings. Plenty of them would like to get on and do in their own way, but they're not toeing the line and are therefore judged by "our" standards as being lesser human beings. I dare say that "that type" have thought through their prospects similarly to the couple in the OP... and given that there are a finite number of jobs, there's always going to be, at best, a revolving unemployed population picking up the scraps. Hell if one of them became a good programmer it could see me out of a job if they work cheaper than me. It's not outwith the realms of possibility at all as "that type" aren't completely stupid.

It's not the welfare state that's the problem. I'm still yet to have anyone give me a concrete argument for that being the case. In fact it sounds more like bullshit propaganda to me. If there were better paying jobs, I reckon most of these guys would be in there working hard. But there aren't, there are just jobs that pay next to nothing over and above that which they could earn whilst on the dole (that isn't just receiving benefits, as these people do "work" too). There are finite jobs Ed. Read the last paragraph of the OP where the Minister says approx 1:5. That's not 5 people applying for every job, that's 1 job for every 5 people. So go ahead and tell me again that ALL of these people should go out and get a job. THERE AREN'T ENOUGH JOBS, FACT, let alone well paying ones. The financial system has to go or the perceived dependency that you talk about will continue to grow as more people are replaced by automation etc... "That type" are taking responsibility for their lives, just not in the way you, or society, expects them to. Criminals cost money to house, so it's cheaper to have them out of jail than in jail, and as money is king why wouldn't you hand down a wet bus ticket to save the country money? However I am with you in regards to punishment to a degree, but where it's a "crime" to rip someone off, it's generally a financial crime and victimless (that last bit contains a wee bit o sarcasm).

"Our" attitude is shit from top to bottom and "that type" are the scapegoats. And it does fuckin annoy me that we seem to be unable to do anything about it because it costs too much money. Uber fail blaming the state for that.

[_Shrek_]

Why the hell did they ever get rid of the p.e.p. schemes of the 80,s, that was a great idea I thought. I learnt quite a bit on the one I did when I was on the dole for a little while back then, at least we were out working, the wage was not the best but better than the dole.:Punk:

aye was a good scheme it gave me the start to dairy farming & into not bad coin, just the hrs sucked :laugh:

while we will surivive, it's still gutting when you're working 80+ hrs per week just to find some lazy %#*( sitting on the dole earning as much as you & doing nothing

[Zedder]

I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

[Edbear]

aye was a good scheme it gave me the start to dairy farming & into not bad coin, just the hrs sucked :laugh:

while we will surivive, it's still gutting when you're working 80+ hrs per week just to find some lazy %#*( sitting on the dole earning as much as you & doing nothing

I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.


I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

Mashman, a lot of what you say is correct, but it is getting people to accept they have to do it for themselves and not think the world owes them a living and that the Govt. should give them everything they need that is the problem.

I am unemployable, I mean, who is going to employ a 54 year old with no formal qualifications higher than College, (though I've been running businesses for years), with a chronic illness and severe physical limitations for my cleared 20hrs per week, knowing I will be unreliable on a day to day basis. "Sorry, I've got to take some drugs and lie down now." "Sorry I can't come in today."

My options were to give up and vegetate, live off my wife plus the wee pittance WINZ could give me, ($40pw!), or be creative. While convalescing from the accident I revived my old business from the '90's, just starting to put a few things on TM and developing a website.

I was flat broke and sick and in pain but made the effort and did what I could with determination. (and drugs... Love the drugs!) After two years we are doing well and I can work according to my limitations.

I was brought up in the era where if a person wanted something, he/she worked for it. It was a pride thing not to go on the benefit and one simply did whatever was available. I started earning for myself at 11 years old, mowing lawns. I pushed my Dad's old mower around the streets to the lawns I cut for a dollar.

When we were first married, my wife walked 2km each way to work evenings as a waitress, and has contributed to the family ever since. In her late 40's she got her Teaching Diploma to improve her earning ability and though it was hard for her she was determined to achieve it and can be proud of herself, as I am of her.

Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

[_Shrek_]

I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.
Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) :facepalm: I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=Edbear;1130492185]I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.



Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

The fact that it's still around means some people can be bothered Ed. It's obviously not for everyone currently and as always, the market decides.

[Edbear]

I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) :facepalm: I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

Another close family member was disadvantaged similarly, though different circumstances. He was determined to better himself, and learned to read and write and now runs his own business and is doing well.


[QUOTE=Edbear;1130492185]I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.



Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

The fact that it's still around means some people can be bothered Ed. It's obviously not for everyone currently and as always, the market decides.

A lot are, and a lot of young people are working hard to be self-supporting, too. I'm encouraged when I see interviews of schoolkids with dreams and aspirations and a good work ethic, and teachers encouraging them that they can succeed.

[mashman]

I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

Sounds a lot like time banking from what I've read. Similar solution with similar issues and as with time-banking, not mainstream enough that the benefits can be realised. Tin foil hat says that that's all down to the banks, economists and blokes in the shadows.


Mashman, a lot of what you say is correct, but it is getting people to accept they have to do it for themselves and not think the world owes them a living and that the Govt. should give them everything they need that is the problem.

I am unemployable, I mean, who is going to employ a 54 year old with no formal qualifications higher than College, (though I've been running businesses for years), with a chronic illness and severe physical limitations for my cleared 20hrs per week, knowing I will be unreliable on a day to day basis. "Sorry, I've got to take some drugs and lie down now." "Sorry I can't come in today."

My options were to give up and vegetate, live off my wife plus the wee pittance WINZ could give me, ($40pw!), or be creative. While convalescing from the accident I revived my old business from the '90's, just starting to put a few things on TM and developing a website.

I was flat broke and sick and in pain but made the effort and did what I could with determination. (and drugs... Love the drugs!) After two years we are doing well and I can work according to my limitations.

I was brought up in the era where if a person wanted something, he/she worked for it. It was a pride thing not to go on the benefit and one simply did whatever was available. I started earning for myself at 11 years old, mowing lawns. I pushed my Dad's old mower around the streets to the lawns I cut for a dollar.

When we were first married, my wife walked 2km each way to work evenings as a waitress, and has contributed to the family ever since. In her late 40's she got her Teaching Diploma to improve her earning ability and though it was hard for her she was determined to achieve it and can be proud of herself, as I am of her.

Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

I too agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you're missing a fundamental issue there and labelling people as useless coz they won't help themselves. I do think that they won't help themselves at all. I'm sure some can't and I'm very sure that some just don't want to. Where some of the posters here have had goals etc... that's the one thing that hasn't been taken into account in regards to "that type". Perhaps they just don't have those goals. Sure that may be because they're negative in their outlook or simply can't be driven to force themselves into something they won't enjoy. there's much more than just lazy people out there and from what I've seen they're anything but idle/lazy. Yes they can get money off of the state and top it up with other "work", but that's what happens when the jobs aren't there.

I'm sure it's wonderful to be driven, to have a goal/purpose etc... but not all of us do. I didn't until several years ago. Quite a few of the guys I went to school with were the same, we just simply didn't know what we wanted to do. However as you say there was work around and some of use helped build houses, asked if the local hotel wanted benches stripped and recoated, worked in the vege shop, grunted at the boatyard, provided general cover for illness etc... but that sort of work isn't overly available these days, primarily because that kind of work has been filled by the grafter who goes looking for it. After that there aren't many legal ways of making money.

The working world has changed and those guys are slipping through the crack due to a number of circumstances. Those circumstances need to change if you want "that type" to change their attitude towards work. Otherwise you're just demanding that they measure up to your standards and play by unrealistic rules. It ain't all one way traffic mate and our rules just aren't flexible enough. Took my 37 years to figure out what I want to be doing, it'll take me almost another 10 to get to the stage where I'd have qualifications and experience enough to then go out and compete with the younger, cheaper generation for limited jobs. In the meantime my family suffers the financial consequences. It's fucked up at best and I'm not one to shirk work. We don't all mature like you, we don't all have your beliefs, we don't all have your goals, we don't all fit into the little societal model that we call normal life. It needs to change. One of Shrek's comments sums it up well "with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better)", "that type" know better also, but there's no reason for them to make that effort.


I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) :facepalm: I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

Congrats man (and just to make this abundandtly clear I mean that sincerely without sarcasm etc...). Might I ask why you didn't do what you've accomplished earlier?

[Edbear]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!

[unstuck]

99% of it is what you make of it, so if your life sux, you sux. :Punk:

Suicidal Tendencies......:Punk::Punk:

[unstuck]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!


Spot on there Ed.:2thumbsup

[007XX]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!

Quick, someone code me an emoticon for having a tantrum...

I've ran out of bling for you.



Since I left school 20 years ago, I've been:
A waitress
A plasterer (plus dabbled in other building skills)
A ceramic tile layer
A fruit picker
A sales rep (too many freakin years of it)
A customer service officer
An alarm technician
A kitchen designer
A self employed writer
An assistant manager in retail
A PA / receptionist/ administrative assistant
A cake decorator (still do that, it's awesome)

Didn't speak a word of english when I made it to NZ, left with just a gleam in my eye and whatever I could pack in a duffel bag.

I didn't know what I wanted to do out of school, still struggle to know whether I can fit just one job so that's why I went for the broadest qualification I could find.

I'm stuffed if that's the best for me, but just like when I came here all these years ago, I'm scared but mostly hugely excited, so it's got to mean that it's the right thing to do.

I truly wish I could encourage people to throw themselves in, scare themselves a little on a regular basis, try new things and live goddammit!

But they never take it up, or if they do, not for long :no:

[Edbear]

Quick, someone code me an emoticon for having a tantrum...

I've ran out of bling for you.



Since I left school 20 years ago, I've been:
A waitress
A plasterer (plus dabbled in other building skills)
A ceramic tile layer
A fruit picker
A sales rep (too many freakin years of it)
A customer service officer
An alarm technician
A kitchen designer
A self employed writer
An assistant manager in retail
A PA / receptionist/ administrative assistant
A cake decorator (still do that, it's awesome)

Didn't speak a word of english when I made it to NZ, left with just a gleam in my eye and whatever I could pack in a duffel bag.

I didn't know what I wanted to do out of school, still struggle to know whether I can fit just one job so that's why I went for the broadest qualification I could find.

I'm stuffed if that's the best for me, but just like when I came here all these years ago, I'm scared but mostly hugely excited, so it's got to mean that it's the right thing to do.

I truly wish I could encourage people to throw themselves in, scare themselves a little on a regular basis, try new things and live goddammit!

But they never take it up, or if they do, not for long :no:

LOL!!! "You must spread..!" We'll just have to reserve some for each other. :facepalm:

I do think I have found my niche, finally... Now it's just trying to make sure the body holds up. Should advise against damaging yourself too much, it does set you back somewhat.

[007XX]

LOL!!! "You must spread..!" We'll just have to reserve some for each other. :facepalm:

I do think I have found my niche, finally... Now it's just trying to make sure the body holds up. Should advise against damaging yourself too much, it does set you back somewhat.

Too late, I've already had kids <_<

Got new bruises from dunking my 15 year old (all 70 kgs worth) into the surf on the weekend. Little shit is getting strong :laugh:

But yes, I get what you're saying. Very happy you're in "that place" finally.

[Edbear]

Too late, I've already had kids <_<

Got new bruises from dunking my 15 year old (all 70 kgs worth) into the surf on the weekend. Little shit is getting strong :laugh:

But yes, I get what you're saying. Very happy you're in "that place" finally.

I think that was near the age I gave up arm-wrestling my son. I could still beat him at chess though if I concentrated. :laugh:

[_Shrek_]

Congrats man (and just to make this abundandtly clear I mean that sincerely without sarcasm etc...). Might I ask why you didn't do what you've accomplished earlier?

when I left home :msn-wink: @ 14 I lived in the streets (Auckland) was a runner for certain types of people, then moved sth when the heat got to much, the :Police: caught up with me three years later, borrowing cars etc.... got to check out hotel de-rock on remand, got bailed & made my mind up never to go back :sweatdrop:
Judge Augustas Wallace, said I was going to get a chance of a life time use it wisely, moved back to the sth Is, but booze drugs etc... got in the way again.... ended up back in court.... some one said join the Army that will help so thats what I did (terries)...... it kept me out of jail....
but as I had this large chip I carried round, I felt the world owed me some thing, after helping wreck my 1st marriage of 7 years

I hooked up with mrs S & with her help started to get on right track, except the drugs still a big hold on me & I was dragging mrs S down with me..... when I finely woke up to it, I was 30 & she 29..... since then we have moved ahead forward mostly.....

[mashman]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!

No we're not :shifty:... Further to attitude, I think we've lost the acceptance that some people just can't keep up with others and they're "punished" for it.

Whilst low self-esteem may well be part of it, I doubt that that's the overriding factor. I have no doubt that there are many who know that they're capable of running businesses, as they do (just not ones that are on the books or are strictly legal), yet they manage cashflow, they manage people, they manage strategy in a competitive marketplace. All of those things take place, but they're not recognised and who is going to drop themselves in the shit at an interview and explain what they've been doing and expecting to walk out with the managers job? I syill think that the two main factors of a lack of direction/goals and the money being offered in exchange for their time being less than they can earn in other ways. It's not just "our" way vs you're not trying hard enough.

Plenty of worth while things come easy as it's as complicated as we decide to make it. That may not be true in financial terms (which I assume you're alluding to?), but things needn't be as complicated as we make them... which is a part of the NOW "philosophy" i.e. if something is worth doing that's of benefit, why are there barriers in the way? The barriers really needn't be there.

Yes lots of people have made it. Yes lots of people have done the hard yards, but so have millions of people before them and likely more so in many ways. I agree with the politely shut up bit and the down too long to a degree, but success may not be a driver for people. It isn't for me. I'd be surprised if I were the only person who didn't feel the want/need to succeed. I don't see it as a pre-requisite for self-worth or to bolster my soul etc... I prescribe to the Einstein view "Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.". I think our thinking is a bit fucked up where we celebrate success at any cost and deride anything other than that as being of no value. Value can be as simple as doing 2 hours in any job at all, something that is not allowed to happen as we currently demand payment for our time.

[mashman]

Quick, someone code me an emoticon for having a tantrum...

like this one :angry2: or this one :mad: :innocent:

[007XX]

like this one :angry2: or this one :mad: :innocent:

Non, non...I vant zee stompin foot wone!

*no idea why that voice in my head sounded like that stupid french gendarme out of "Allo allo!", but there ya go...

[007XX]

No we're not :shifty:... Further to attitude, I think we've lost the acceptance that some people just can't keep up with others and they're "punished" for it.


Plenty of worth while things come easy as it's as complicated as we decide to make it. That may not be true in financial terms (which I assume you're alluding to?), but things needn't be as complicated as we make them... which is a part of the NOW "philosophy" i.e. if something is worth doing that's of benefit, why are there barriers in the way? The barriers really needn't be there.

Yes lots of people have made it. Yes lots of people have done the hard yards, but so have millions of people before them and likely more so in many ways. I agree with the politely shut up bit and the down too long to a degree, but success may not be a driver for people. It isn't for me. I'd be surprised if I were the only person who didn't feel the want/need to succeed. I don't see it as a pre-requisite for self-worth or to bolster my soul etc... I prescribe to the Einstein view "Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.". I think our thinking is a bit fucked up where we celebrate success at any cost and deride anything other than that as being of no value. Value can be as simple as doing 2 hours in any job at all, something that is not allowed to happen as we currently demand payment for our time.

Now those points, I struggle to argue against.

[mashman]

when I left home :msn-wink: @ 14 I lived in the streets (Auckland) was a runner for certain types of people, then moved sth when the heat got to much, the :Police: caught up with me three years later, borrowing cars etc.... got to check out hotel de-rock on remand, got bailed & made my mind up never to go back :sweatdrop:
Judge Augustas Wallace, said I was going to get a chance of a life time use it wisely, moved back to the sth Is, but booze drugs etc... got in the way again.... ended up back in court.... some one said join the Army that will help so thats what I did (terries)...... it kept me out of jail....
but as I had this large chip I carried round, I felt the world owed me some thing, after helping wreck my 1st marriage of 7 years

I hooked up with mrs S & with her help started to get on right track, except the drugs still a big hold on me & I was dragging mrs S down with me..... when I finely woke up to it, I was 30 & she 29..... since then we have moved ahead forward mostly.....

Oh gawd am I glad I asked :laugh:. Think we all know people who did them sorts of things for a living, each to their own degree (just a job though eh ;)). I'm curious about the chip on the shoulder and the world owing you a living... something I've never experienced and something I've never directly questioned of another. By all means tell me to fuck off like :yes:.

[Edbear]

I'm not saying success is being a millionnaire, or anbything in particular. Success is in being able to look after oneself and in being happy. Of course we all differ in our values and goals, but the OP was about whether one should be working for a living or living off the benefit.

The Biblical principle is one I personally agree with but is often misquoted. It actually reads, "He who does not want to work, neither shall he eat."

If someone disadvantaged needs support, then that support should be given, but with the provisio that the person concerned desires to achieve self-sufficiency and is prepared to work at doing so, be that looking for a job, or retraining in a realsitc manner to get work. And not be too fussy about what they have to do.

No-one should be encouraged to have the attitude that the world owes them and they should sit on their butts and expect others to provide for them.

[mashman]

Non, non...I vant zee stompin foot wone!

*no idea why that voice in my head sounded like that stupid french gendarme out of "Allo allo!", but there ya go...

Now those points, I struggle to argue against.

A la Monty Python?

Don't knock it, it worked for me, cheers :eek: (Yvette from the caf used to make my nethers twitch sommet fierce)

The whole ethos of NOW man ... ommmmmmmmmmmmm

[unstuck]

By all means tell me to fuck off like :yes:.

Fuck off like.That was my chip talking.:yes:

[mashman]

I'm not saying success is being a millionnaire, or anbything in particular. Success is in being able to look after oneself and in being happy. Of course we all differ in our values and goals, but the OP was about whether one should be working for a living or living off the benefit.

The Biblical principle is one I personally agree with but is often misquoted. It actually reads, "He who does not want to work, neither shall he eat."

If someone disadvantaged needs support, then that support should be given, but with the provisio that the person concerned desires to achieve self-sufficiency and is prepared to work at doing so, be that looking for a job, or retraining in a realsitc manner to get work. And not be too fussy about what they have to do.

No-one should be encouraged to have the attitude that the world owes them and they should sit on their butts and expect others to provide for them.

Very true. And the couple in the OP had figured that they would be happier by not pursuing further education, "poorly" paid work etc... and therefore you'd have to class that as a success?

I'd be curious to hear what the modern day version of that statement would be, or perhaps if they'd have added an addendum of "unless there's no jobs". And it's kind of an odd principle given that Churches are so heavily involved in charity.

It's an individual choice and the world owing them a living is a basic right imho. It is us that are unwilling to pay more for that to be a reality, coz we're worth more :facepalm:

[mashman]

Fuck off like.That was my chip talking.:yes:

Get a fuckin job ya dodgy cunt.

[007XX]

The whole ethos of NOW man ... ommmmmmmmmmmmm

The use of singular not plural here has been duly noted. Freudian slip, I hope it is not :bleh::shutup:

The whole "chip on the shoulder/ government, world owes me" syndrome is way more widespread than you would think.

Because you have never experienced it doesn't make it inexistent.

I grew up with a lot of folks like that. I don't know whether it has solely to do with a lack of money leading to a lack of opportunity either. But struggling for money certainly generates more negative than it does positive.

So doing away with it altogether might just be the answer. I honestly don't know.

It makes me so very angry when I know how little we do to help our youths. If you can be bothered, check out a facebook page titled "homeless at 17...cyps stopped getting paid.."

The young man trying to make a difference is truly inspirational. He would truly blossom within NOW.

[Edbear]

Very true. And the couple in the OP had figured that they would be happier by not pursuing further education, "poorly" paid work etc... and therefore you'd have to class that as a success?

I'd be curious to hear what the modern day version of that statement would be, or perhaps if they'd have added an addendum of "unless there's no jobs". And it's kind of an odd principle given that Churches are so heavily involved in charity.

It's an individual choice and the world owing them a living is a basic right imho. It is us that are unwilling to pay more for that to be a reality, coz we're worth more :facepalm:

The misquote is that most people don't notice the word. "want" in there, and simply say, "he who does not work, neither shall he eat." There is a fundamental difference. The people in the OP said they want to work but their situation meant that what they could do would make them financially worse off. This is not success, this is defeatism.

It is similar here for some too; making the transition from benefit to work is not attractive as they feel they are being disadvantaged. It still comes down to attitude in the end.

[_Shrek_]

I'm curious about the chip on the shoulder and the world owing you a living... something I've never experienced and something I've never directly questioned of another.

not a living just owed me maybe for the missery that my parents put me through ie: the :Police: never did anything to help with the beatings from dad & mum said I was just like my father, when I got work after school from 7yo I was going to make lots of $$$ & get the hell out, only thing was I had to start buying my school clothes etc... & later when the coppers dragged me home & made me stay with my mum for a bit, she had control of my pay, told me it was going into a bank.... I guess it was!!! hers never did see it again :confused: any way thats when my attitude really hit the bottom.... & off the rails I went... simple really.... once where warriors was my life... colour don't come into it...

but at the end of the day you have a choice.... I made mine & they can too....

[mashman]

The use of singular not plural here has been duly noted. Freudian slip, I hope it is not :bleh::shutup:

The whole "chip on the shoulder/ government, world owes me" syndrome is way more widespread than you would think.

Because you have never experienced it doesn't make it inexistent.

I grew up with a lot of folks like that. I don't know whether it has solely to do with a lack of money leading to a lack of opportunity either. But struggling for money certainly generates more negative than it does positive.

So doing away with it altogether might just be the answer. I honestly don't know.

It makes me so very angry when I know how little we do to help our youths. If you can be bothered, check out a facebook page titled "homeless at 17...cyps stopped getting paid.."

The young man trying to make a difference is truly inspirational. He would truly blossom within NOW.

I'm not quite sure what you mean there and I'm almost hesitant to ask.

I've no doubt that there are those who take the handout gleefully and likely mutter "suckers" under their breath... but not yet with the world owing them a living. True they probably exist, but I've yet to meet anyone who puts it that way as their reasoning for taking the "handout". In ways the world does owe them a living as there aren't enough jobs to go around and from an economics stand point unemployment is, let's call it and inevitable consequence of monetary policy for controlling inflation. The benefit is there for a reason.

If there are more negatives than positives, then something is drastically wrong. For me it's a no brainer, the financial system has to go and for many more reasons other than the negative impact it has on human relationships. That's a fact :innocent:.

It'd just make me angry. My ex used to be a youth worker on a bus in Drumchapel and on occasion I'd go along to help out. All walks of life on there and only on reflection these days do I see it as an unnecessary "suffering" and waste of human ability. Such a fucken waste...

Anyhoo, number 3 child has had her first day at school, so I'm off to have my ears bled.

[mashman]

The misquote is that most people don't notice the word. "want" in there, and simply say, "he who does not work, neither shall he eat." There is a fundamental difference. The people in the OP said they want to work but their situation meant that what they could do would make them financially worse off. This is not success, this is defeatism.

It is similar here for some too; making the transition from benefit to work is not attractive as they feel they are being disadvantaged. It still comes down to attitude in the end.

I don't see their predicament as being defeatists more over quite pragmatic given the benefits (pun intended) of the chosen "lifestyle". As in previous posts, why put yourself under unneeded "stress" if you don't have to? And by that measure I would deem that society expecting them to suffer that stress is unwarranted and that we should fooken well know better. To that end I reckon there's likely a similar thought process that goes through then minds of most, if not all, of those who find themselves living that "lifestyle". No doubt some of it is knowledge passed on from parent to child. To a huge extent I don't blame them for coming to that conclusion, I blame society and its value/belief system.


not a living just owed me maybe for the missery that my parents put me through ie: the :Police: never did anything to help with the beatings from dad & mum said I was just like my father, when I got work after school from 7yo I was going to make lots of $$$ & get the hell out, only thing was I had to start buying my school clothes etc... & later when the coppers dragged me home & made me stay with my mum for a bit, she had control of my pay, told me it was going into a bank.... I guess it was!!! hers never did see it again :confused: any way thats when my attitude really hit the bottom.... & off the rails I went... simple really.... once where warriors was my life... colour don't come into it...

but at the end of the day you have a choice.... I made mine & they can too....

EEEEEEEK that's doesn't sound nice in the slightest. And at the risk of having you hunt me down and murdering me in my sleep (gotta love a stereotype eh), do you reckon if your parents had have had money it would have made a difference to your upbringing? I know that's a cunt of a thing to ask and I apologise for being the cunt that's asked the question for many many reasons etc... but given that poverty/low socio-economic factors (wanky talk for having little income) is supposedly linked, I'd be interested to get your opinion.

[_Shrek_]

do you reckon if your parents had have had money it would have made a difference to your upbringing? I know that's a cunt of a thing to ask and I apologise for being the cunt that's asked the question for many many reasons etc... but given that poverty/low socio-economic factors (wanky talk for having little income) is supposedly linked, I'd be interested to get your opinion.

the thing is they did have money... well dad did he was on an average wage for back then.... & dad use to bring home venison two to three times a week.... he was on the railways then, then he became a cop & on good coin to for back then, but he was a piss head etc... & a selfish prick... I guess it's because his old man left when he was a kid & treated him as he treated me, so just a vicious cercle, mum worked to cover what we needed,
it's the lack of communication between them that lead to the down fall, & she became a man hater because of the beatings & him screwing everthing out side their marriage

we have raised 10 of our 11 kids on one wage, I have a rifle, meat was cheap, wife would grow our vedges, & we use to grow out own as well, heads in the bag & tip & leaf in cookies we didn't have a lot & at times & it was a strain but we use to talk about it or just get stoned & the probs would go away for a bit :facepalm: (we've changed that life & started a new)

way I see it mashman if you have love in your relation ship along with communication you can get by with very little at times & lets face it there is always someone worse off than you

& the gubberment is kept out of parents bringing their kids & encouage mums to stay at home & we will see a hudge change in out kids!!!

thats me on this

[bluninja]

I'm confused (easy really)...my recollection of the current financial system is that it started off with simple bartering...time, goods, or services exchanged......this led onto an 'exchange' rate for converting goods and services, which became money.

If goods, services or products were rare, then the value of them increased (assuming there was a desire/need for them). This is the basis for all of todays systems.

Socially we look to providing for ourselves, our close family, our extended family, village, region, country. I don't think we have evolved socially enough to consider providing for humankind as part of our everyday focus to our endevours. Were that the case, there woudl be no wars, no startvation, no overpopulation as we would consider the needs for the whole human family as being of benefit to us individually.

I guess that's why I don't see NOW as anything other than an idealistic substitute that will merely create a different marketplace. But we need idealists to push at the status quo and maybe smalle gains, evolution, or revolution could take place.

Dr John Grey (Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus) is working towards world peace one relationship at a time. He opines that if we can't relate to our spouses, loved ones and friends in a peaceful loving way how can we have peace and love across the world. I find this approach to social change one that I can work with.

As for dole bludgers.....they are incredibly skilled at what they do and know all the grey areas in the benefits system and what they are (legally) entitled to. I'm not sure that it is the person's fault if they exploit a system that is badly flawed, but I just wish they would apply those skills to something that is beneficial to all.

[mashman]

the thing is they did have money... well dad did he was on an average wage for back then.... & dad use to bring home venison two to three times a week.... he was on the railways then, then he became a cop & on good coin to for back then, but he was a piss head etc... & a selfish prick... I guess it's because his old man left when he was a kid & treated him as he treated me, so just a vicious cercle, mum worked to cover what we needed,
it's the lack of communication between them that lead to the down fall, & she became a man hater because of the beatings & him screwing everthing out side their marriage

we have raised 10 of our 11 kids on one wage, I have a rifle, meat was cheap, wife would grow our vedges, & we use to grow out own as well, heads in the bag & tip & leaf in cookies we didn't have a lot & at times & it was a strain but we use to talk about it or just get stoned & the probs would go away for a bit :facepalm: (we've changed that life & started a new)

way I see it mashman if you have love in your relation ship along with communication you can get by with very little at times & lets face it there is always someone worse off than you

& the gubberment is kept out of parents bringing their kids & encouage mums to stay at home & we will see a hudge change in out kids!!!

thats me on this

Holy fuck shit... 11 kids :shit:... agreed on the relationship thing :yes:. We're at the stage where my wife wants back into the workplace so I can take over the stay home role, ya know, go for coffee and underwear parties with the other mums :laugh:. Bummer being that she can only earn about 1/3 of what I earn which would see us going backwards relatively quickly and given her background, she'd rather not... which leaves me in two minds, albeit I'll end up doing what she suggests. We'll work it out.

Sounds like a varied and colourful life you've had... should our paths ever cross, beers are on me :)

[mashman]

I'm confused (easy really)...my recollection of the current financial system is that it started off with simple bartering...time, goods, or services exchanged......this led onto an 'exchange' rate for converting goods and services, which became money.

If goods, services or products were rare, then the value of them increased (assuming there was a desire/need for them). This is the basis for all of todays systems.

Socially we look to providing for ourselves, our close family, our extended family, village, region, country. I don't think we have evolved socially enough to consider providing for humankind as part of our everyday focus to our endevours. Were that the case, there woudl be no wars, no startvation, no overpopulation as we would consider the needs for the whole human family as being of benefit to us individually.

I guess that's why I don't see NOW as anything other than an idealistic substitute that will merely create a different marketplace. But we need idealists to push at the status quo and maybe smalle gains, evolution, or revolution could take place.

Dr John Grey (Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus) is working towards world peace one relationship at a time. He opines that if we can't relate to our spouses, loved ones and friends in a peaceful loving way how can we have peace and love across the world. I find this approach to social change one that I can work with.

As for dole bludgers.....they are incredibly skilled at what they do and know all the grey areas in the benefits system and what they are (legally) entitled to. I'm not sure that it is the person's fault if they exploit a system that is badly flawed, but I just wish they would apply those skills to something that is beneficial to all.

You missed that inflation keeps up the need for growth ;).

We have evolved socially to provide for humankind as part of out everyday focus to our endeavours. However instead of doing things because they need to be done, we create a marketplace and put a value on those endeavours in order to make money. If NOW existed, as you say there would be no starvation (there is enough food to go around, us all eating and not dying is testimony to that fact, we need better logistics however, that and desalination plants in empoverished country's), there may well still be wars over resources ifthey are not freely shared (which they aren't), overpopulation is a given should you not intervene and sterlise men after 2 kids, maybe 3, maybe 4 depending on the numbers... and we do currently hold that we are create for the needs for the whole human family (albeit it's not true) as we are a global community and we are all supposed to be doing stuff that benefits each other and not just making money.

NOW is idealistic, hmmmmmmm. It's better than thing being business not personal. Removing the financial system is the best start we can be given. The rest will take time and who knows what future generations will do with how NOW works. With any luck they'll use it properly and we'll get the fuck off this rock and go play with the rest of the universe. I can't see us achieving that where money is concerned. It's too much of a limiting factor in day to day life and the brain drain it imposes means that we're probably losing some rather interesting perspectives... not to mention the tin foil hat of withheld technology's to protect industry... and on and on and on. The positives outweigh the negatives imho. To that end, NOW is just an idea, not an ideal as there is no end goal, just a "principle" for getting the ball rolling, so no, I don't believe that NOW is idealistic as it is open ended so that it can evolve and respond to the needs of the people.

Screw peace, it'll come or it won't. Forcing it is like fucking for vaginity and is a huge waste of hot air, time and money.

PAH... there's no jobs and even if there were, would they continue to rip us off at the other end of the scale? but yeah, I share your wish.

[unstuck]

Get a fuckin job ya dodgy cunt.

Might have to go out to the woolsheds more often, $280 for 3hrs work yesterday.:Punk:

[mashman]

Might have to go out to the woolsheds more often, $280 for 3hrs work yesterday.:Punk:

I didn't realise that sheep "scarring" paid that well. You better fuckin declare it or I'm grassin you up... and not in the way you hope.

[Brian d marge]

You missed that inflation keeps up the need for growth ;).

.

Go back to the gold standard, where the new money enering the system is tied to the gold entering the system and then regulate the ebbs and flow in and out of the country using monetary policies, So that there are no great booms and busts , to which Dickens oliver twist aluded to and the banks cannot print money using fiat money ,

Stephen

ps as said many imes before , when u marginalise a people , they invent rules and justifications for action this is what is happening here

[mashman]

Go back to the gold standard, where the new money enering the system is tied to the gold entering the system and then regulate the ebbs and flow in and out of the country using monetary policies, So that there are no great booms and busts , to which Dickens oliver twist aluded to and the banks cannot print money using fiat money ,

Stephen

ps as said many imes before , when u marginalise a people , they invent rules and justifications for action this is what is happening here

Same shit different mechanism imho as money is still being created and valued to some measure, be it gold or itself or silver or time or stocks or cattle or knowledge or spam. There's still that inherent value of goods/services that will be prized and those that won't and those that should and those that shouldn't... so I fail to be able to see past ditching the financial system entirely... and I shall not I shall not be moved (without a very fuckin good reason and it will have to be good) on that.

Til then as ya say, we'll keep on losing them freedoms and we'll be thankful for it because we need to get them damned spongers.

[Brian d marge]

Same shit different mechanism imho as money is still being created and valued to some measure, be it gold or itself or silver or time or stocks or cattle or knowledge or spam. There's still that inherent value of goods/services that will be prized and those that won't and those that should and those that shouldn't... so I fail to be able to see past ditching the financial system entirely... and I shall not I shall not be moved (without a very fuckin good reason and it will have to be good) on that.

Til then as ya say, we'll keep on losing them freedoms and we'll be thankful for it because we need to get them damned spongers.
Thats ok
the amount of money enetering the system will be inline with population growth more or less

as for valuing one service over the other. thats ok market forces do have a place just not with essential services

Stephen

[mashman]

Thats ok
the amount of money enetering the system will be inline with population growth more or less

as for valuing one service over the other. thats ok market forces do have a place just not with essential services

Stephen

Fanks.
I get the idea, well as far as I've read... and we may as well assign a value to a child when it's born and re-value the worth of the child each year after... so the child's value will increase in line with the cost of living instead of against a finite commodity.

[Brian d marge]

Fanks.
I get the idea, well as far as I've read... and we may as well assign a value to a child when it's born and re-value the worth of the child each year after... so the child's value will increase in line with the cost of living instead of against a finite commodity.

Tis always been that way .......I was born in the east end and according to the powers that be I aint worth a hill of goat shit ...

Stephen

[mashman]

Tis always been that way .......I was born in the east end and according to the powers that be I aint worth a hill of goat shit ...

Stephen

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... at least you're breaking even. I was born in Liverpool, instant negative equity right there :laugh:

[bluninja]

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... at least you're breaking even. I was born in Liverpool, instant negative equity right there :laugh:

Well if you were worth anything you would have been stolen ....probably as soon as your mum went into labour. :laugh:

[mashman]

Well if you were worth anything you would have been stolen ....probably as soon as your mum went into labour. :laugh:

heh... never underestimate the effort a scouser will put into keeping what they class as theirs :shifty: