Emergency braking practice

[haydes55]

I was told I can't use my work car park in the weekend for practising slow speed manoeuvring and emergency braking :angry: (4 businesses operate out of the same area with a shared car park, still used in weekends). So I was in the area today after the gym and decided I would scope out some of the industrial area,:scooter: found a bigger car park not too far from work. :woohoo:
Map for those who care where. (https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?q=18+Kaimiro+Street,+Hamilton&hl=en&ll=-37.737149,175.228769&spn=0.004811,0.010568&sll=-37.736987,175.229144&sspn=0.002405,0.005284&oq=18+kaimiro&t=h&hnear=18+Kaimiro+St,+Pukete,+Hamilton+3200&z=17)
Completely vacant and no gravel etc. So I found a couple of old pellets out the back to use as markers, set them up towards the end and decided to do some tight circles, figure 8's and emergency stops. The car park was long enough to get up to 50km/h before reaching the first marker.

So here's my improvements over the day, working on my emergency braking:

http://s4.postimage.org/c1c87l1i1/Braking_practice_002.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/c1c87l1i1/) http://s4.postimage.org/g0e145fix/Braking_practice_003.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/g0e145fix/) http://s4.postimage.org/xg875uehl/Braking_practice_005.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/xg875uehl/)

Progressing the distances and moving the marker to where I stopped (If it was a shorter distance, usually each attempt I stopped faster)

http://s4.postimage.org/bwd2bnjkp/Braking_practice_007.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/bwd2bnjkp/) http://s4.postimage.org/assxzoyxl/Braking_practice_006.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/assxzoyxl/)

So that was the improvement made today, the pellet in front of the bike was the first attempts distance, the bike is parked at my personal best of the day.

http://s4.postimage.org/rqrylj8bd/Braking_practice_004.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/rqrylj8bd/)
The rear tire locked up a few times but I managed to keep it from sliding too much, wasn't much of a difference between using only front brakes and using both.

I measured the distances for perspective, in paces.
My bike was 2 paces long.
First attempt was 15 paces to stop, so 7 1/2 bike lengths to stop.
Best attempt was 9 paces, so only 3 1/2 bike lengths to stop.

I'm going to try make time at least once a month to go back and practice more. Any other Hamilton riders want to join me, you're more than welcome. Could even get some of those cheap plastic cones and make up a course for u-turn/figure 8 practice.

(I might have also tried doing a few wheelstands.... They weren't very successful, but still managed to do a few 5-10m wheelstands :shutup:)

Fun day and I feel more confident of my bike/abilities in an emergency situation and slow speed skills. :2thumbsup

[george formby]

Good on ya. Practice, practice, practice.
We make a big effort to do similar practice as often as possible. Wet or dry. Your learning whats at the thin end of the wedge & it could make the difference between a bin or a win.
Get your braking technique right so you maximise the stoppage from both tires without locking. It does make a difference in your stopping distance.
Watch some moto gymkhana videos on youtube, it's nuts & you would probably love it, I'm hooked. You can learn how to chuck the bike on it's ear at full lock with both brakes on & the throttle open, hit full lean & ride off. It's voodoo stuff. I love it.
If your up this way again PM me.

This should be right up your alley.

http://youtu.be/0V9GVXydp3c

[p.dath]

Well done. Practice is what is needed to improve emergency braking.

When you have a marked car park like that, it's also pretty easy to count the number of cark parks you're able to do the stop in.

U-Turning across car parks is also a good way to do some measurements. You can start out trying to turn in three parks, then 2.

[bosslady]

Bloody good idea, I wouldn't have thought about doing that (marking, not practicing emergency braking, though I haven't done the latter for awhile!).

[R650R]

Tried the same thing on a backroad once using my backpack as a marker. Then while I was turning around some lady drove up and grabbed my bag thinking it was lost property and drove off. Had to chase her all the way into town to get my bag back when I realised what had happened lol At least she didnt call the bomb squad.

[arcane12]

nice!

Did you just ninja the place for practice, or do you know someone? Not that I am worried, just curious. Could use some practice myself. Though the training course really helped. I think the back brake does help a little, though as it's easier to lock up could cause more issues than it solves... I use mine still, but am working on ensuring I don't overuse it.

[Skiwi]

I have only had cause to emergency brake twice in real life on the road, sad to say most of the training went out the window and I locked the back bake up good, however, I was still upright and alive at the end of it, so i must have retained some of the training.<_<

[Akzle]

:scratch: sensible thread...

:wait:...


huh.
'onya, i guess. (bring it to the gravel bro!)

[Maha]

Has saved my arse (and bike) on two occassions, good stuff Hayden, once you have that skill planted in the memory bank, its there forever.
I always use the rear brake, front for that extra quick stopping, if you loose the front wheel for any reason, its all over. Straight line stopping usually gets both.
Personal prefference.

[george formby]

I struggled with the back brake, thick soled boots, lack of feel etc. Left some awesome skids, though. Ended up lowering the rear brake lever one notch. I really have to stand on it to lock it now.
Akzle said something pertinent... It is now very effective on gravel, I can feed in the braking pressure just to the point of locking or a bit more. This is on the lard arse TDM, the wee DT is not an issue, maybe the back brake is just crap.
Measure your stopping distance in meters. This will give you a good idea of what your bike is capable of on the road. Intersections, junctions etc are more or less the same size, it's good to know you can scrub off a lot of speed or stop in a lane width or up to half the width of a junction.

Oh, keep your head up, don't look at the mudguard:facepalm::innocent:

[Maha]

:laugh: Akzle said something pertinent...now theres an oxymoron...:laugh:

[Akzle]

:laugh: Akzle said something pertinent...now theres an oxymoron...:laugh:

i'm pertinent as fuck.
thanks anyway.

[haydes55]

Good on ya. Practice, practice, practice.
We make a big effort to do similar practice as often as possible. Wet or dry. Your learning whats at the thin end of the wedge & it could make the difference between a bin or a win.
Get your braking technique right so you maximise the stoppage from both tires without locking. It does make a difference in your stopping distance.
Watch some moto gymkhana videos on youtube, it's nuts & you would probably love it, I'm hooked. You can learn how to chuck the bike on it's ear at full lock with both brakes on & the throttle open, hit full lean & ride off. It's voodoo stuff. I love it.
If your up this way again PM me.

This should be right up your alley.

http://youtu.be/0V9GVXydp3c

I've watched a few of those gymkhana style events on youtube. Look like a shit-load of skill required to be fast! If you can do a gymkhana course fast, you can cope with most situations on the road.


nice!

Did you just ninja the place for practice, or do you know someone? Not that I am worried, just curious. Could use some practice myself. Though the training course really helped. I think the back brake does help a little, though as it's easier to lock up could cause more issues than it solves... I use mine still, but am working on ensuring I don't overuse it.

I ride a Kawasaki, so in keeping with their theme, I ninja'd it. Don't even know what the business was haha. It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I'm sure they wouldn't mind, I made a bit of noise, left a few faint skidmarks and put everything I used back. If the cops come I'm sure they would encourage what I'm doing. If not then they are a useless cop haha.


I struggled with the back brake, thick soled boots, lack of feel etc. Left some awesome skids, though. Ended up lowering the rear brake lever one notch. I really have to stand on it to lock it now.
Akzle said something pertinent... It is now very effective on gravel, I can feed in the braking pressure just to the point of locking or a bit more. This is on the lard arse TDM, the wee DT is not an issue, maybe the back brake is just crap.
Measure your stopping distance in meters. This will give you a good idea of what your bike is capable of on the road. Intersections, junctions etc are more or less the same size, it's good to know you can scrub off a lot of speed or stop in a lane width or up to half the width of a junction.

Oh, keep your head up, don't look at the mudguard:facepalm::innocent:

Yea going to keep working on the rear brake (I'll be going back again at some stage to practice again). The brakes get quite warm after 10 or so quick stops though so might have a few cool down breaks next time.

Look where you want to go, rule number 1 isn't it? Look at the mudguard for stoppies...... or endo's :laugh:


Has saved my arse (and bike) on two occassions, good stuff Hayden, once you have that skill planted in the memory bank, its there forever.
I always use the rear brake, front for that extra quick stopping, if you loose the front wheel for any reason, its all over. Straight line stopping usually gets both.
Personal prefference.

I was given a book to read about all manor or riding faster. Motovudu by Simon Crafar. In that he said when he's racing he uses his front brake and engine braking only. His reasoning was he has to think about and have the feel for 2 tires grip as well as think about the revs of his bike and what gear you're in. He would rather let engine braking control the rear braking and worry only about getting 100% braking from the front tire.

That makes sense for racing, but on the road when I would usually cruise in 4th gear at 50km/h there wouldn't be time to engine brake? I made an effort every time to try engine brake as well but several times I stalled as I stopped. Do you let the bike stall and not worry about downshifting? Just pull the clutch in same time as the front brake and come to a stop whilst still in 4th gear and use the brake for all rear braking?

[Maha]

That makes sense for racing, but on the road when I would usually cruise in 4th gear at 50km/h there wouldn't be time to engine brake? I made an effort every time to try engine brake as well but several times I stalled as I stopped. Do you let the bike stall and not worry about downshifting? Just pull the clutch in same time as the front brake and come to a stop whilst still in 4th gear and use the brake for all rear braking?

Coasting to a stop?...nope, use the engine via non clutching downshift till about 3rd/4th gear whilst covering/slight pressure the rear brake and then the front brake gets used.

[haydes55]

Coasting to a stop?...nope, use the engine via non clutching downshift till about 3rd/4th gear whilst covering/slight pressure the rear brake and then the front brake gets used.

That makes sense, the rear braking first will squat the bike down so the front forks will already be under load and the lower bike will stop faster with less risk of going over the handlebars?

[george formby]

That makes sense for racing, but on the road when I would usually cruise in 4th gear at 50km/h there wouldn't be time to engine brake? I made an effort every time to try engine brake as well but several times I stalled as I stopped. Do you let the bike stall and not worry about downshifting? Just pull the clutch in same time as the front brake and come to a stop whilst still in 4th gear and use the brake for all rear braking?

Well, as was explained to me. Would you rather be on someones bumper with the engine running or looking at it with the engine stalled. In practice I change down. When I'm really squealing the front tire I just remember to whip the clutch in at the last second coz I'm shiting meself. I was also taught to use 4 fingers on the brake. Prior, I would use 2 or 3 but ended up not fully closing the throttle when it came to the crunch. We adjusted our brake levers to make this easier.

I learned eons ago to look where I want to go. Saved my ass on the road numerous times but when I started braking practice my head went down at the same rate as the forks. Bloody amateur. I ended up with a wee sticker on my handle bars to remind me.... :facepalm: The shame.

This pops into mind a lot when I'm practicing. S'cuse the pun.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5rAOyh7YmEc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[george formby]

That makes sense, the rear braking first will squat the bike down so the front forks will already be under load and the lower bike will stop faster with less risk of going over the handlebars?

Kind of. I find on the DT that using the brakes initially together gets the bike stopping fairly level but as the weight moves forward the rear wheel starts to lift, only when the forks are really compressed does the rear brake come into play again. On the TDM it's more linear because it's fat & just squats at both ends. Keeping your head up helps keep your weight back. I should imagine on your bike it would not be to hard to get the arse up in the air, the wee DT will do it. :yes::woohoo: Not sure if you remember but it was the blue trailie with L plate flapping & my red jacketed G/F riding when you were oop north. We joined you for the run down from Kerikeri.
Sprot bikes are predominantly front brake after the initial grab too. I started this with a guy on a 900ss & he did his first ever stoppie. Different bikes have different dynamics, which is why practice makes so much sense.

[caspernz]

Good topic Haydes :niceone:

Tricky subject for an up and coming rider to get their head around...the old panic or emergency stop.
Personally, for a full on panic stop it's declutch and apply front and rear as quickly and harshly as the head reckons is sensible for the prevailing road conditions. With practice you'll find you can apply loads of front brake without any of that funny stuff of taking a flying leap over the bars, or locking the front wheel.

Good on ya for the initiative to learn, and to share it with this harsh audience :Punk:

[Maha]

That makes sense, the rear braking first will squat the bike down so the front forks will already be under load and the lower bike will stop faster with less risk of going over the handlebars?

I told that very thing a long time ago by a very experienced rider, and have used the rear brake effectively and successfully ever since.
Only ''old school'' riders would say different cos thats how they were taught 80 years ago....:shifty:
Downhill rear brake use and gear selection seats the bike nicely, doesn't have to much, you can feel it working.

[caspernz]

I told that very thing a long time ago by a very experienced rider, and have used the rear brake effectively and successfully ever since.
Only ''old school'' riders would say different cos thats how they were taught 80 years ago....:shifty:
Downhill rear brake use and gear selection seats the bike nicely, doesn't have to much, you can feel it working.

Yep, rear brake first going downhill is the go for relaxed riding :2thumbsup

[george formby]

Yep, rear brake first going downhill is the go for relaxed riding :2thumbsup

Yarp. Regardless of surface.

[haydes55]

Kind of. I find on the DT that using the brakes initially together gets the bike stopping fairly level but as the weight moves forward the rear wheel starts to lift, only when the forks are really compressed does the rear brake come into play again. On the TDM it's more linear because it's fat & just squats at both ends. Keeping your head up helps keep your weight back. I should imagine on your bike it would not be to hard to get the arse up in the air, the wee DT will do it. :yes::woohoo: Not sure if you remember but it was the blue trailie with L plate flapping & my red jacketed G/F riding when you were oop north. We joined you for the run down from Kerikeri.
Sprot bikes are predominantly front brake after the initial grab too. I started this with a guy on a 900ss & he did his first ever stoppie. Different bikes have different dynamics, which is why practice makes so much sense.

I remember that bike. Perfect learners machines if you aren't too short. Isn't much harm in dropping it whilst learning.

I'll probably make a habit of practising as regularly as possible (lets be honest, it's loads of fun as well).

Speaking of dynamics, I have no idea about suspension set-ups, but I think the KLX's front is a bit soft. I know it's got huge travel being a dirt bike, but wondering if I need to stiffen it for road use?

[awa355]

I told that very thing a long time ago by a very experienced rider, and have used the rear brake effectively and successfully ever since.
Only ''old school'' riders would say different cos thats how they were taught 80 years ago....:shifty:
Downhill rear brake use and gear selection seats the bike nicely, doesn't have to much, you can feel it working.

80 years ago, we just fed the army greatcoat into the rear wheel. Worked about as well as any factory built rear brake. <_<<_<

[george formby]

I'll probably make a habit of practising as regularly as possible (lets be honest, it's loads of fun as well).

Speaking of dynamics, I have no idea about suspension set-ups, but I think the KLX's front is a bit soft. I know it's got huge travel being a dirt bike, but wondering if I need to stiffen it for road use?

:yes: I bet you break a sweat when you practice in the rain, though...

Both the DT & TDM have soft fronts. Now that I'm used to the way they dive I quite like it. My initial grab on the brake has got harder or maybe quicker as I've practised, I let the suspension avoid an instant lock up. Once compressed the feed back is good. You can hear the front tire "shushing". At this point it's starting to leave a bit of tread on the road. I doubt I'm using more than 80% of the fork travel
When you start a u-turn with the front brake on, the steering geometry steepens a lot & makes the radius very tight. The DT will do a 180 with the rear wheel travelling less than a metre laterally from entry to exit. I'm a still not confident enough to manage this on the TDM but getting closer.

Have a look at GP 8 on youtube. It's an exercise which combines maximum braking, steering & acceleration.

Here ya go. The greater the distance between the cones the more you need to use the front brake on entry, your travelling faster. You use the back brake to maintain speed through the turn, keep the throttle open & apply the back brake to turn, release to accelerate out. After a few runs you can light a ciggie on the rear disk.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t6AfZF72btc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[haydes55]

:yes: I bet you break a sweat when you practice in the rain, though...

Both the DT & TDM have soft fronts. Now that I'm used to the way they dive I quite like it. My initial grab on the brake has got harder or maybe quicker as I've practised, I let the suspension avoid an instant lock up. Once compressed the feed back is good. You can hear the front tire "shushing". At this point it's starting to leave a bit of tread on the road. I doubt I'm using more than 80% of the fork travel
When you start a u-turn with the front brake on, the steering geometry steepens a lot & makes the radius very tight. The DT will do a 180 with the rear wheel travelling less than a metre laterally from entry to exit. I'm a still not confident enough to manage this on the TDM but getting closer.

Have a look at GP 8 on youtube. It's an exercise which combines maximum braking, steering & acceleration.

Here ya go. The greater the distance between the cones the more you need to use the front brake on entry, your travelling faster. You use the back brake to maintain speed through the turn, keep the throttle open & apply the back brake to turn, release to accelerate out. After a few runs you can light a ciggie on the rear disk.



That GP8 looks easy to set up, good to practise and measurable results as well. (Plus the motards looked the best in that video).

Use the soft suspension to your advantage then, I'll learn :yes:

[george formby]

It's huge fun, cheap & easy. We use tennis balls cut in half.. Scary too, but we started slow, still are..
On another forum quite a few riders are really getting stuck into stuff like this on all kinds of bikes. With the GP 8 the falling off point comes when you hit the mid 30's it seems. This is the point when flaws in your technique really stand out. I find it really hard to do faster times. The smoothness & bike control required is epic. Way beyond what you think it takes. Have fun!!