"Clutch riding" or "Throttle riding" when racing?

[Conquiztador]

My son is now moving up to 85cc motocross. Until now we have not been too worried re small details in his riding. We have done heaps of racing and his speed has become very competitive. This year we will focus on details in his riding to shave off 0.5 seconds here and 0.5 seconds there per lap. (Food, fitness, technique, bike setup etc.)

A double world champion I have met insists that riding with the clutch is the next step, and if a rider does not do this he/she will never develop to his/her full potential. I have also been told by others that many of the worlds top riders do ride the throttle. The world champ I know did ride with the clutch. I have not had this discussion with a world champion who rides the throttle. I have discussed this with non-world champions who are at the top of NZ MX and who does not believe in clutch riding.

(Clutch riding: The throttle is held on constant high revs and the speed is regulated by slipping the clutch. Throttle riding: The speed is regulated by mainly the position of the throttle and slipping of the clutch is only done when changing gear.)

Clearly there is pro's and con's with both techniques. Clutch riding will wear out many clutches in a year. Throttle riding can easily leave you with loss of power temporarily as 2 strokers (that my son currently ride) work best in the high rev powerband. Note that clutch riding is also used by 4 stroke riders. There is also other real or conceived benefits and negatives with both techniques.

Reason to post this here is that I would like to hear views on this issue. Is it worth teaching my son to clutch ride? Or should we stay with throttle riding and focus on other detail in his riding? And it also made me wonder if clutch riding is used in other motorbike racing?

[manxkiwi]

What about a bit of both?

[Conquiztador]

What about a bit of both?

I would say that most (if not all) successful riders do a bit of both. (There is now also the semi-auto clutch for MX bikes that works as a normal clutch at higher revs but lets gradually go at lower revs preventing stalling and helps the motor build up the revs from slow speed ). The clutch riding I am referring to is a "dedicated" clutch riding where every corner is taken with the motor working at the best rev range and the speed and grip is regulated by the clutch alone.

Personally I have never been riding MX more than some fun dirt riding. I did ride solo speedway, but there we have huge torque in the 500cc single cylinder bike using methanol, so apart from using the clutch at the start to keep the front wheel just touching the ground, I never really used the clutch (as there is no gears on a solo bike).

Personally I can see the logic in clutch riding, as I would imagine that a rider who has mastered the technique had an advantage in corners.

My intention, if I am not convinced otherwise by a logical argument against it, is to start teaching my son clutch riding, therefore adding to his arsenal of things he can use when racing MX.

I would still really appreciate your opinion re this issue even if you might not be very familiar with the subject.

[BoristheBiter]

we did some training with Chris Birch the other day and he was teaching us the clutch technique, very hard to unlearn the throttle technique, and like you said it is so the engine is all ready producing power as in racing you are either accelerating or braking and if you have to wait for the bike to get up into power you can loose a few seconds a lap.

being enduro we were using it more for hill climbs (from a short run up) and for getting over logs (as in easier to pop the front wheel up) but for everyone was for coming out of a corner, the power is there without waiting that split second for it to happen.

Was trying it a week back on a ride and it made such a difference (when I got it right).
Just wish I had been taught it earlier.

[Conquiztador]

we did some training with Chris Birch the other day and he was teaching us the clutch technique, very hard to unlearn the throttle technique, and like you said it is so the engine is all ready producing power as in racing you are either accelerating or braking and if you have to wait for the bike to get up into power you can loose a few seconds a lap.

being enduro we were using it more for hill climbs (from a short run up) and for getting over logs (as in easier to pop the front wheel up) but for everyone was for coming out of a corner, the power is there without waiting that split second for it to happen.

Was trying it a week back on a ride and it made such a difference (when I got it right).
Just wish I had been taught it earlier.

Thanks for comment! Supports my reasoning for teaching my boy the technique.

[Ocean1]

Trials riding techniques changed 20 years ago, not really from strict throttle control to clutch control, but particularly for launching into an obsticle heavy use of the clutch with the engine at max revs became "normal".

I under-use the clutch in the dirt, when I learned to ride you couldn't do that to a clutch and get away with it. I have learned to use it more as a power delivery control, though. But here's the thing, you can't leave the throttle pinned all day, you have to be able to modulate both to keep the revs where you want them and to keep the power delivered to the back wheel that you need.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it takes practice to even begin to learn how. It's also not a technique you use full time, (at least I've never seen it done, and if my boy treated his bike that way he'd be building his own engines, alone) there's a time when traction's at a premium and you just want to tractor through some slime where you need to leave the clutch alone, just get in the right gear and focus on maintaining momentum. On the other hand if traction's 100% then you can be managing the revs at peak torque by feathering the clutch and keeping the throttle wide open.

[CHOPPA]

On a 2 stroke it is a must, on a 250f it is a must on a 450 you can ride with the throttle

[CHOPPA]

BTW Im in a far better job now and could possibly help out in your holiday programmes :)

[haydes55]

I did ride solo speedway

Now you're talking! Get your son a junior solo!

You still go and watch at Meeanee?

[Conquiztador]

Now you're talking! Get your son a junior solo!

You still go and watch at Meeanee?

Watched NZ Champs at Rosebank in beginning of January. Enjoyed that. Meeanee and their bull ring is not really doing much for me. Too far away and the competition often is not even enough to be exciting. Also, the solo's are not there every race meeting. And as the cars do not do much for me I then go there to watch 4 sidecars and 6 solos for 3 races.

When my boy was 6 and wanted to start competing there was only (and still is) MX that he could be part of on regular basis. He had 45 meetings last year + all practice. No way could he do that in speedway or even Road Racing. In a few years he will have a go at 125cc RR and also solo's. If he then likes one of them more than MX we change. But lot will have to do with how his MX goes now when he moves up to 85cc. Hence my focus on working on specific aspects of his riding to help and make him competitive in his age group (will be 11-12yo for 2013 and 2014).

If he likes solo's I will most probably keep him doing MX and solos in-between.

[Conquiztador]

BTW Im in a far better job now and could possibly help out in your holiday programmes :)

Thanks. I finished with my last employer. But have something new in the pipeline... Will keep you posted.

[Conquiztador]

Trials riding techniques changed 20 years ago, not really from strict throttle control to clutch control, but particularly for launching into an obsticle heavy use of the clutch with the engine at max revs became "normal".

I under-use the clutch in the dirt, when I learned to ride you couldn't do that to a clutch and get away with it. I have learned to use it more as a power delivery control, though. But here's the thing, you can't leave the throttle pinned all day, you have to be able to modulate both to keep the revs where you want them and to keep the power delivered to the back wheel that you need.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it takes practice to even begin to learn how. It's also not a technique you use full time, (at least I've never seen it done, and if my boy treated his bike that way he'd be building his own engines, alone) there's a time when traction's at a premium and you just want to tractor through some slime where you need to leave the clutch alone, just get in the right gear and focus on maintaining momentum. On the other hand if traction's 100% then you can be managing the revs at peak torque by feathering the clutch and keeping the throttle wide open.

Yes, fully realise that it is not about pinning the throttle and then riding only with the clutch. It is about using much more of the clutch to allow the motor to use it's higher rev range where the power is. The way I see it is to introduce clutch riding so it becomes and option and is not something alien to my son. Then as he develops he has the ability (and hopefully the understanding) to use the technique to go faster in areas (corners often) than others who do not master the clutch riding. The plan is to make clutch riding one part of the training so he does this on regular basis. Repetition and practice makes perfect I hear...

[DEATH_INC.]

My mxing is a little out of date now, but I went ok back in the days...

I learnt a different technique to most of the guys I rode with, and I abuse the f*ck out of the clutch on a mx bike. Even My mates 450 I rode a year or two back.

The advantages are better acceleration (almost instant if done right) and less gear changes, which cost valuable meters when you're racing. And less chance of stalling under brakes (you have the clutch in already)

Disadvantages? Can't really think of any, and I never went through loads of clutches, in fact no more than anyone else I can think of....

I'd get someone to teach him, it's still a pretty good technique to have in your bag of tricks...

[Conquiztador]

My mxing is a little out of date now, but I went ok back in the days...

I learnt a different technique to most of the guys I rode with, and I abuse the f*ck out of the clutch on a mx bike. Even My mates 450 I rode a year or two back.

The advantages are better acceleration (almost instant if done right) and less gear changes, which cost valuable meters when you're racing. And less chance of stalling under brakes (you have the clutch in already)

Disadvantages? Can't really think of any, and I never went through loads of clutches, in fact no more than anyone else I can think of....

I'd get someone to teach him, it's still a pretty good technique to have in your bag of tricks...

Cheers. I expect more clutch wear, but I think it will be outweighed by the advantages as per your post.

[haydes55]

Watched NZ Champs at Rosebank in beginning of January. Enjoyed that. Meeanee and their bull ring is not really doing much for me. Too far away and the competition often is not even enough to be exciting. Also, the solo's are not there every race meeting. And as the cars do not do much for me I then go there to watch 4 sidecars and 6 solos for 3 races.

When my boy was 6 and wanted to start competing there was only (and still is) MX that he could be part of on regular basis. He had 45 meetings last year + all practice. No way could he do that in speedway or even Road Racing. In a few years he will have a go at 125cc RR and also solo's. If he then likes one of them more than MX we change. But lot will have to do with how his MX goes now when he moves up to 85cc. Hence my focus on working on specific aspects of his riding to help and make him competitive in his age group (will be 11-12yo for 2013 and 2014).

If he likes solo's I will most probably keep him doing MX and solos in-between.

Yea definitely a lot more seat time in MX. Good on you giving him a go at different racing classes. If he wants a good go on a Junior solo there is a club bike at Rosebank kids are welcome to come have a blat on at practises. I think Meeanee has a club bike as well, the 125's are for ages 8-12 and 250's for 12-16 (if I remember rightly). If you want to sort out a practise day in Auckland or at Meeanee give me a yell and I can organise it for you in Rosebank or talk to Darrin in Meeanee for you. All the best for your sons riding.

[Ocean1]

Yes, fully realise that it is not about pinning the throttle and then riding only with the clutch. It is about using much more of the clutch to allow the motor to use it's higher rev range where the power is. The way I see it is to introduce clutch riding so it becomes and option and is not something alien to my son. Then as he develops he has the ability (and hopefully the understanding) to use the technique to go faster in areas (corners often) than others who do not master the clutch riding. The plan is to make clutch riding one part of the training so he does this on regular basis. Repetition and practice makes perfect I hear...

Sounded like a lecture, didn't it :laugh: Sorry mate, was just thinking out loud. I tend to ride big thumpers, and while a dab of clutch isn't unheard of it's not quite as necessary.

And yeah, I can't think of many tricks he shouldn't learn, he'll use what works best when he's ready.

[CHOPPA]

Disadvantages? Can't really think of any, and I never went through loads of clutches, in fact no more than anyone else I can think of....

.

Loss of traction :)

[avgas]

Clutch riding is a double edge sword. Seen many a person stuff it up and "free-wheel" or lock up brakes due to not having the engine engaged in a situation.
On a thumper, closing the throttle and chomping the gears is actually a really safe way to decelerate.

Clutch slipping is only as good as the clutch, so (in wet sumps) avoid additives in the oil, and do an oil change and flush every race. I didn't and it added 2 seconds to my 400m time.......which got worse as the night continued to the point where my top speed was 90kph (out of 190ish kph). This was with a near new race clutch.

Likewise I hear the drift boys flush their clutch between race meets.

[DEATH_INC.]

Loss of traction :)
Sorry Chop, I'm gonna disagree with ya, when done right you can actually have more grip. Though for sure, if it's done a bit ham-fisted it can get a bit messy in the slippery stuff.

[Conquiztador]

Clutch riding is a double edge sword. Seen many a person stuff it up and "free-wheel" or lock up brakes due to not having the engine engaged in a situation.
On a thumper, closing the throttle and chomping the gears is actually a really safe way to decelerate.

Clutch slipping is only as good as the clutch, so (in wet sumps) avoid additives in the oil, and do an oil change and flush every race. I didn't and it added 2 seconds to my 400m time.......which got worse as the night continued to the point where my top speed was 90kph (out of 190ish kph). This was with a near new race clutch.

Likewise I hear the drift boys flush their clutch between race meets..

We change oil between every meeting now. And as mentioned earlier, it is not something you decide to do without heaps of practice. But I believe that if the technique is learnt properly there is gains to be made over the ones who do use throttle only.

[Conquiztador]

Sorry Chop, I'm gonna disagree with ya, when done right you can actually have more grip. Though for sure, if it's done a bit ham-fisted it can get a bit messy in the slippery stuff.

I agree with you. There is more grip as the wheel is not spinning in the dirt like crazy.

[Brian d marge]

we did some training with Chris Birch the other day and he was teaching us the clutch technique, very hard to unlearn the throttle technique, and like you said it is so the engine is all ready producing power as in racing you are either accelerating or braking and if you have to wait for the bike to get up into power you can loose a few seconds a lap.

being enduro we were using it more for hill climbs (from a short run up) and for getting over logs (as in easier to pop the front wheel up) but for everyone was for coming out of a corner, the power is there without waiting that split second for it to happen.

Was trying it a week back on a ride and it made such a difference (when I got it right).
Just wish I had been taught it earlier.

how can I agree with boris without him finding out ........

Steve spray , told me many years ago about mid corner "Lag" that split second on the apex , carburation was the key there , the clutch is more " on it like a bonnet " , oh boy its brutal though .....engineers may want to step away at this point

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

how can I agree with boris without him finding out ........

Steve spray , told me many years ago about mid corner "Lag" that split second on the apex , carburation was the key there , the clutch is more " on it like a bonnet " , oh boy its brutal though .....engineers may want to step away at this point

Stephen

You can't I'm always lurking...:shifty:

[nzspokes]

My son is now moving up to 85cc motocross. Until now we have not been too worried re small details in his riding. We have done heaps of racing and his speed has become very competitive. This year we will focus on details in his riding to shave off 0.5 seconds here and 0.5 seconds there per lap. (Food, fitness, technique, bike setup etc.)

A double world champion I have met insists that riding with the clutch is the next step, and if a rider does not do this he/she will never develop to his/her full potential. I have also been told by others that many of the worlds top riders do ride the throttle. The world champ I know did ride with the clutch. I have not had this discussion with a world champion who rides the throttle. I have discussed this with non-world champions who are at the top of NZ MX and who does not believe in clutch riding.

(Clutch riding: The throttle is held on constant high revs and the speed is regulated by slipping the clutch. Throttle riding: The speed is regulated by mainly the position of the throttle and slipping of the clutch is only done when changing gear.)

Clearly there is pro's and con's with both techniques. Clutch riding will wear out many clutches in a year. Throttle riding can easily leave you with loss of power temporarily as 2 strokers (that my son currently ride) work best in the high rev powerband. Note that clutch riding is also used by 4 stroke riders. There is also other real or conceived benefits and negatives with both techniques.

Reason to post this here is that I would like to hear views on this issue. Is it worth teaching my son to clutch ride? Or should we stay with throttle riding and focus on other detail in his riding? And it also made me wonder if clutch riding is used in other motorbike racing?

Thanks for posting this. I have been using the technique a bit after reading this and it got me out of a badly wrong gear choice on a hill today.

Didn't know anything about until you posted it.

[Conquiztador]

Thanks for posting this. I have been using the technique a bit after reading this and it got me out of a badly wrong gear choice on a hill today.

Didn't know anything about until you posted it.

Cool! Glad clutch riding got you out of problems! Now start practicing it and use the technique to get faster out of corners!

At each training pass we now spend time focusing on clutch riding. Initially it made my son slower (more to think about, get the hands to synchronise clutch and throttle etc.) But it did not take long before he got comfortable and noticed that he was faster out of the corners. Combine that with something we focused on last year: To brake very late coming in to corners, and suddenly corners have become his strength. We are now at a stage where we are working on having the motor screaming when he comes out of the corner and I can see how it throws him forward!

[BoristheBiter]

Cool! Glad clutch riding got you out of problems! Now start practicing it and use the technique to get faster out of corners!

At each training pass we now spend time focusing on clutch riding. Initially it made my son slower (more to think about, get the hands to synchronise clutch and throttle etc.) But it did not take long before he got comfortable and noticed that he was faster out of the corners. Combine that with something we focused on last year: To brake very late coming in to corners, and suddenly corners have become his strength. We are now at a stage where we are working on having the motor screaming when he comes out of the corner and I can see how it throws him forward!

it is quite noticeable on trail rides following people going fast on the straights where you can just keep to suddenly being right up their tail pipe and pass them like they are standing still out of the corner.

Now if I could have done that better on the hill climbs yesterday.:facepalm: