Group riding - How big before you consider it "organised"?

[bluninja]

So you fancy a ride and want to join with a few other fellow bikers to ride some nice roads to a cool destination. You txt a few mates and post on Kiwibiker; but at what point do is it go from "Meet at point A at this time and we're heading to point B, see you all at point B for a cupp and a chat" to
"fully organised with leaders, tail end charlie and rules for the ride"?

At what point does the ride organiser have "responsibility" for the riders welfare and might be liable if the group ride is negligently organised such that people are injured?

At what point do the police have to be informed?

Most of us ride with mates and in small groups from time to time, sometimes on various organised charity rides with varying rules and restrictions so I just wondered what the people "in the know" think and what do other people think that have been on group rides or are thinking of going on them.

[FJRider]

Police involvement is only required in the case of an accident.

From the road code ..


Reporting a crash

If you are involved in a crash while driving, and you are not badly injured, the first thing you must do is stop and check to see if anyone is hurt, and provide assistance.

If someone is hurt, you must tell a police officer as soon as possible and no later than 24 hours after the crash.

If no one is hurt, you must give your name, address and vehicle registration (and, if asked, the name and address of the owner of the vehicle you are driving, if it isn't your vehicle) as soon as possible but no later than 48 hours after the crash to:

: the owner or driver of any other vehicle that has been damaged
: the owner of any property that has been damaged.

If you can't find these people, you must tell a police officer as soon as possible and no later than 60 hours after the crash.

[bluninja]

OK, so if I wanted to organise a fundraiser bike ride round the mountain in Taranaki for 1000 bikes I could just do it and the police would do nothing (other than 'normal' road policing) provided everyone was riding within the law? What happens on things like the Westpac run with rolling roadblocks on the motorways?

[FJRider]

OK, so if I wanted to organise a fundraiser bike ride round the mountain in Taranaki for 1000 bikes I could just do it and the police would do nothing (other than 'normal' road policing) provided everyone was riding within the law? What happens on things like the Westpac run with rolling roadblocks on the motorways?

I did say Requirement.

A "heads up" to the Police in those areas would be the polite thing to do. But not as I recall a legal requirement.

Any special request to Police ... is at the discretion of the Police to provide assistance in this regard.

As long as all involved on the ride, obey all laws and legislation on public roads ... there is nothing Police can do.

However ... if no "heads up" was given to them ... the police may (at their discretion) choose to discuss the matter with the organiser ... afterwards.

[FJRider]

Multiple choice polls are always good for a laugh ... not that great for accuracy though ... :laugh:

[bluninja]

I'm aware of my legal responsibilites as a license holder in the event of an accident :baby:

However "organising" others on the road is more of a grey area. A bit like the guy who steps out in the road and tells you to stop so his mate can back out onto the road....you don't (always) have to stop but most people do out of courtesy and common sense.

Perhaps a better question (or 2) would be; What do people consider is a best practice for liaising with police for an organised ride? At what numbers would this normally cut in?

[Berries]

OK, so if I wanted to organise a fundraiser bike ride round the mountain in Taranaki for 1000 bikes I could just do it and the police would do nothing (other than 'normal' road policing) provided everyone was riding within the law? What happens on things like the Westpac run with rolling roadblocks on the motorways?
Try it with 1,000 bikes and no notice and there would only be one rolling roadblock and it would come to a shuddering halt fairly soon. How are you going to know that the day you have planned the trip is not also the same day the Council have planned to dig the road up for a reseal? If you get in touch with the Council or NZTA they will probably help you out with a traffic management plan. There may be intersections where they are going to need manual control. Could be the cops, or the Lions club or whatever. Could be some $$$$ involved as well. Involve the RCA and the Police when you are first thinking about it and they will help you out. If they find out when it is underway and people have to be called in on their day off it is unlikely they will be very helpful.

The HOG rally was down our way last year. They got Fulton Hogan to prepare a full on traffic management plan and the Police were heavily involved. Not sure why as we are quite used to A&P shows, Gypsy Day and all that other agricultural shit, but you get my point.

EDIT- Numbers is difficult. 30, nah. 1,000 yep. If I had to pick a number I would say between 150 and 200 would be the cut off but there are so many variables, type of route, length of route, volume of other traffic, number of intersections, time of day etc etc etc. I'd just ask the question of the Council/NZTA.

[FJRider]

I'm aware of my legal responsibilites as a license holder in the event of an accident :baby:

However "organising" others on the road is more of a grey area. A bit like the guy who steps out in the road and tells you to stop so his mate can back out onto the road....you don't (always) have to stop but most people do out of courtesy and common sense.

Perhaps a better question (or 2) would be; What do people consider is a best practice for liaising with police for an organised ride? At what numbers would this normally cut in?

Perhaps you should look up the responsibilities involved/required in organising an event in a public place.

The old "it wasn't my fault" and "I didn't know that would happen" ... don't count for much in Police view of organisers, regarding "trouble" on public events.

As I said earlier ... a "heads up" to police would be the polite thing to do. Earlier rather than later .... would be better.

[Gremlin]

I wouldn't put an arbitrary number on deciding how organised it is.

In the past, there were plenty of KB rides, 40-50 bikes, and a basic idea of where it went etc. Others prefer to have things more organised, even if the bike count is less than 10. It's also individual choice as to what sort of ride they want to participate in.

For large rides (100+), protest or charity rides etc, it's certainly good to have police involved, or advise them. Things like Pink Ribbon are a long standing yearly ride. The police involvement might vary in numbers (usually around their changing rules and budget) but they are ever present, lead the ride etc.

I helped organise a large protest run against the wire rope barriers. One of my jobs was to organise route and liaise with police. Initial contact was met with a thanks, but we're not getting involved. Late on Friday afternoon (can't remember if the ride was Sat or Sun) I suddenly received a call. The decision was made, that based on numbers (think we had 350 ish), it was safer for them to be present, than not.

[Maha]

OK, so if I wanted to organise a fundraiser bike ride round the mountain in Taranaki for 1000 bikes I could just do it and the police would do nothing (other than 'normal' road policing) provided everyone was riding within the law? What happens on things like the Westpac run with rolling roadblocks on the motorways?

We have put together a couple large orgainsed rides in the past, one was The Rolling Protest Ride in late 09'..we informed the police of our intentions and route, they were not that worried, until they saw how many bikes there were as we approached the Harbour Bridge, then they got involved. Clearing the way for us at the top of the N/W motorway etc. The other was The Christchurch Earthquake Appeal ride in Feb 2011. Once again we did the right thing and informed the police about it. This time, they turned up at the start and made sure we had clear run at our first turn around. Both rides were estimated at 350-400 bikes.

I wont have any more than 24 bikes on a group ride, and even then its gets split into three groups.



PS: The Westpac ride no longer has any onramp blocks and quite frankly, its a bun fight with speeds ranging from 30kph to 140kph.

[BigAl]

As long as everyone on the ride knows the basic route, rest/regroup points are suggested then that is about all you need to organise for a group of say >6.

Can go a bit further and swap cell phone nos. in the case of a breakdown/getting lost/dating but that's about it imo.

[iYRe]

My rules usually are:

Dont leave anyone behind.
Dont ride like a madman and get your mates killed (we will punch you in the nose and disable your bike at the earliest opportunity)

ENJOY.

How you accomplish the above will depend on who you are riding with - my mates of 30 years.. we dont need rules.. add in a few new people.. still dont really need any..

[GrayWolf]

I often wondered about when things like Sunday morning rides, and or some of the week night rides seemed very disjointed, and often poorly 'organised in some aspects. Then when talking with an old riding buddy in the UK in 'chat' we started to discuss rides we went on in the 70's... and rides today
So what we realised is, as bikes have become more 'reliable'? organising has dropped off...

To explain..
A high percentage of the bikes in group rides I went on back then were British iron. So while under 20, I was riding with guys 20's to 30's. Rides were 'organised' so the slower bikes were at the front,, You could have BSA bantam's, tiger cub's etc which were about as fast as a Honda CB125 single. Bigger bikes were at the back, if you wanted to 'blat off' then you could, but we always waited for the group to catch up.. many used the quick fang to stop for a 'fag break'. With Brit bikes, as is frequently the case, someone would break down, or often, someone's. So the tail end charlie(s) had the most reliable/fastest bikes (those days CB750 or Z1 etc). There was always 2 or 3 guys who would share 'tail end charlie' duty. We all kept an eye in mirrors for those behind, and if someone didnt turn up in reasonable time, people would go back to see. (remember cell phones were'nt even invented then). The Jap 250's were comfortable in staying at the pace set by the Brit 500/650's so were considered to be 'big bikes' lol. If someone broke down, the tail ender would catch up the main group and we would usually stop, or guys with mechanical 'nouse' would go back to help.

However, this 'watching out for eachother seems to have 'faded' somewhat in the modern era.. I have been on rides where a group meet up at Rimutex and have seen a slow rider left behind and no one was keeping an eye. Thats a bit sad really.

[Road kill]

So you fancy a ride and want to join with a few other fellow bikers to ride some nice roads to a cool destination. You txt a few mates and post on Kiwibiker; but at what point do is it go from "Meet at point A at this time and we're heading to point B, see you all at point B for a cupp and a chat" to
"fully organised with leaders, tail end charlie and rules for the ride"?

At what point does the ride organiser have "responsibility" for the riders welfare and might be liable if the group ride is negligently organised such that people are injured?

At what point do the police have to be informed?

Most of us ride with mates and in small groups from time to time, sometimes on various organised charity rides with varying rules and restrictions so I just wondered what the people "in the know" think and what do other people think that have been on group rides or are thinking of going on them.

I no longer ride on charity rides,,just to many fuckwits not following basic common sense let alone any rules laid down.

I also won't ride on a KB organised ride,,done it three times in the past and there were crashes on two of them then a few weeks after the last one two KB regulars died in a head on with each other.

Club rides tend to be no more than 10 riders and the routes meeting places ect ect are well known to all before hand.

The cops,,,,,,,,Nah,,there's easier ways to fuck yourself over than talk to people like that.

[Hitcher]

Haven't we done this "group ride" palaver to death before? Next thing somebody will want to write some rules of engagement.

[tri boy]

Next thing somebody will want to write some rules of engagement.

Chicks sorted that out eons ago.:msn-wink:
Goes something like this:
"Don't hand me no lines,
and keep your hands to yourself".

Bless em:not:

[bluninja]

Interesting stuff...BTW I'm not planning on organising 1000+ bike rides any time this decade :) it was just an example.


So far I've been on a few KB organised rides, one of which had a crash resulting in a broken car windscreen and a broken ankle, a few AMCC rides (one to Waingaro hot springs ended in a biker being taken out by a crow in the helmet), 1 Ulysses ride, lots of evening rides organised by various bike shops in the UK, IMOC rides, plus a few big charity ones, and a few group advanced skills rides.

One thing is for certain, you're never gonna please everyone; and there's always people happy to comment from the sidelines who don't attend. I just thought I'd ask the questions, probably for the umpteenth time on here, and see what came out in the wash.

One of the most fun rides I had, was on a long msytery tour ride of about 200kms with 300+ riders. We rode however we wanted as long as we didn't pass the front man, or get passed by the tial end charilie. At any junction the person behind the leader stopped and indicated the direction for the rest of the riders till TEC came up and waved them on.

I think the most important thing on any ride is that all the riders arrive at their destination in one piece having had an enjoyable ride. Lots of ways for this to happen...

[Mom]

Two riders.

Even that needs understanding and respect and organisation.

Ride for yourself, your own ride at all times.

If riding with others, do so at your own peril.

[Eddieb]

I did say Requirement.

A "heads up" to the Police in those areas would be the polite thing to do. But not as I recall a legal requirement.


For the first Capital Coast Adventure ride the organiser advised the police of the event and the route, so on the day the cops set up a check point on the route and pulled every bike and brought the event to a halt. They've never been notified since.

[FJRider]

For the first Capital Coast Adventure ride the organiser advised the police of the event and the route, so on the day the cops set up a check point on the route and pulled every bike and brought the event to a halt. They've never been notified since.

If all vehicles are legal, and obeying ALL traffic laws and legislation, and local bylaws ... Police notification of their travel plans are NOT required.

If Police believe any such regulations (as Drink Driving/no Rego or WoF) are being ignored ... their discretion to do such stops can be expected.

Publicity for your ride can be a double edged sword.

[Maha]

Interesting stuff...BTW I'm not planning on organising 1000+ bike rides any time this decade :) it was just an example.


So far I've been on a few KB organised rides, one of which had a crash resulting in a broken car windscreen and a broken ankle, a few AMCC rides (one to Waingaro hot springs ended in a biker being taken out by a crow in the helmet), 1 Ulysses ride, lots of evening rides organised by various bike shops in the UK, IMOC rides, plus a few big charity ones, and a few group advanced skills rides.

One thing is for certain, you're never gonna please everyone; and there's always people happy to comment from the sidelines who don't attend. I just thought I'd ask the questions, probably for the umpteenth time on here, and see what came out in the wash.

One of the most fun rides I had, was on a long msytery tour ride of about 200kms with 300+ riders. We rode however we wanted as long as we didn't pass the front man, or get passed by the tial end charilie. At any junction the person behind the leader stopped and indicated the direction for the rest of the riders till TEC came up and waved them on.

I think the most important thing on any ride is that all the riders arrive at their destination in one piece having had an enjoyable ride. Lots of ways for this to happen...

Some years ago, a few of us got together and came with some guidelines for group rides...the mix of 'invitees' was varied to say the least. some that hate group ride and never attend, some very new riders some that had organised a number of events etc. I could not understand why those that never attend, and newbies, were involved. It was pointed out to me, that thier view was important for the structuring of guidelines.
Those that don't attend, shared their reasons why, and the newbies also, had input as to what they want/look for in a group ride situation.

I now take no notice of those guidelines, I have my own, and everyone that joins in the rides that I organise, are taken into consideration...everyone.

The Group Ride Guide....http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/107628-The-Group-Ride-Guide