Back to basics

[awa355]

Needed???

I would have thought that basic arithmetic would always have been taught in schools. First lesson of each day ( 1950-60's ) from std1 was mental arithmetic. The teacher calling out the sums and the children writting down the answers in columns at the back of our arithmetic books. A mixture of addition, subtraction and division. Even long division got thrown in.

Yes, I know they have calculators these days, but the processing thoughts I learnt back then still apply today. EG; My wife just asked me about how much fuel I'll use on this scooter charity ride coming up. I came up with a close estimate straight away. K's travelled, fuel used and total cost while reading this article.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10867176

[Edbear]

And the surprise is..? For years the education of our children has been neglected as dumb new ideas came along and the system was changed on popular whim.

Now, even the teachers can't count or spell!

From Primary School we were taught the times tables by rote, were taught how to write and spell with correct grammar. Taught how to read and were given exams that tested those basic requirements. If you failed, a word banned from school these PC days, you repeated until you got it right.

In this time of economic hardship, I wonder how many are missing out on jobs because they can't read or write properly? Ask a cross-section of KB'rs and some get angry if their inability is pointed out and deny it is an issue. It amazes me just how many people don't care and don't want to learn for their own benefit. :weird:

[duckonin]

10+ credits for that post Edbear...:niceone:

[yod]

I continue to be stunned by how many think the opposite of win is loose.

[YellowDog]

Almost every week for the past year or so:

"Errr that will be $11.90 please"

"I think you'll find it's $21.80"

"Errr are you sure?"

"Quite sure, 9 + 9 = 18 (not 19) and you then need carry over the ten to the next colomn"

"Errrr OK, that will be $21.80 please"

"Thanks"

"Would you like your receipt"

"Too farkin right I would"

Not funny at all really :no:

[george formby]

I wonder how many are missing out on jobs because they can't read or write properly?:weird:

Or business. EG, trade me. If the vendor can't string a sentence together it's an instant move on from me. Same with email inquiries to me. u cant rite propa u git nutin.

It could be moot, though. I work with quite a few young people. I can't txt instantly, can't rap & can't do those strange hand shake, slap, click greetings. I can do joined up writing, add things up in my head and use a belt to keep my strides in position. Admittedly they can open the calculator application in the phone & get an answer faster than I can remember were I left my phone. They all seem to be doing fine, maybe I'm the odd one out now.

[Glowerss]

I can't say a word on the math front, because although my school was typical on a heavy emphasis on mental math division subtraction ect, I still can't do much more then basic mental arithmetic to save me life. Just not something I was born with the ability to do :baby:

Anyway, I reckon things like cell phones, and the internet in general, have more to do with the annihilation of the English language more than anything else. You can beat grammar and spelling and punctuation into students all you want, but I'd be willing to bet they'd still spend significantly more time mangling English texting to their friends or posting on facebook.

I mean, it isn't as if they can't spell or be grammatically correct. Spell checker exists on just about bloody everything these days. It's simply something they don't think matters, because they spend significant quantities of time "doing it wrong" that it's become what's normal/expected for them.

[Moi]

I have spent my career in education - taught from Yr0 [used to be the primers - remember Primer 1?] through to tertiary - and now teaching in the primary sector again. Remember, in NZ, 'primary sector' means from the day the "littlies" start to the day they leave Yr8 [Form 2 or Standard 6]. We do have one of the best primary school education systems in the world - I am a little parochial about that! - BUT the system depends on teachers who are able to operate in an autonomous setting.

Unfortunately, that is not the case in many schools today and I, this is my personal opinion, believe this to be the result of Tomorrow's Schools and the 'commercialization' of schools. Teachers are being directed to teach or test in particular ways rather than being given the tools they need to teach and assess [different from testing] and then being allowed to get on with the job. If teachers do not have the skills to do the teaching or assessing then up-skill them, support them, mentor them - that's what used to happen. Today it seems to be the 'follow the steps' process rather than the 'thinking teacher process' - what am I doing and why am I doing this? is an anathema to many in positions of responsibility. There are some out there who are happy to have teachers who think but they are getting thin on the ground.

We have had - and still have - some world class teachers and educators in this country - Sylvia Ashton-Warner, Alwyn Richardson, Marie Clay, and many others I have had the great pleasure to work with and be guided by. Teachers have 'worked smart' in the past - or at least that's how I saw it and undertook my teaching/learning practice in my classroom. However, today we seem to be going the other way - challenging the current dogma or ideology is detrimental to your career and certainly to your state-of-mind.

Both sides of the maths debate in this morning's NZHerald have valid and worthwhile points, as well as aspects which should be disposed of before further damage is done to the education of the children of this country. Maths needs to be related to the real world in which we live but that maths can only be 'computed' if you have the foundations [not keen on the expression 'basics' as too emotive] well established and understood so those foundations can be used to solve the problems you are faced with.

Unfortunately, I don't think we will return to the days when school was a place where you "learnt stuff" and also learnt that what you knew was only a stepping stone to further learning and "knowing stuff" - It's not knowing the facts but knowing how to access the facts. I don't believe that concept fits with the present dogma or ideology that emanates from places on high.

My tuppence worth...

Also - these are my personal views and do not represent those of my employer!

[Katman]

I'm constantly amazed at serious darts player's ability to quickly perform lengthy mental arithmetic.

I believe it's a clear sign that beer is good for you.

[Edbear]

The point the education system seems to completely overlook is teaching students to think. By learning the basics of Arithmetic and language it becomes instinctive and particularly learning the times tables by chanting, multiplication and addition became automatic and extremely fast. The three 'R's teach the brain to follow logical thought and rapidly speed up the process.

Googling an answer to a question is fine but does it teach the why's and wherefore's, the background unless the student has been taught and encouraged to examine further and to understand the subject.

I have been very impressed with many young one's lately who are genuinely interested in getting a proper education and striving for success. We don't have to look far to see the problem raised is not endemic of our student population generally. It is serious though that so many are failing in the system and it is not just the schools failure, as always the parents need to step up and encourage their children, support them and show them they can succeed regardless of their less than ideal background and circumstances.

[duckonin]

Plus the other little bit. Manners, Hello is 'grunt' goodbye is 'grunt' please is 'grunt' thank you is 'grunt', so at the end of the day mine is fuck you too.

The system started to fail badly thirty years back. Our kids came home from school with new information on how to count. Dad, we do not count like you do, these days we count in rods, not sure how it was meant to work, well at the end of the day it never. Count the sheep in that pen matey, "how do I do that? " Buggar me, start at one then move to two and so on. What do you learn at that bloody school ? We were the teachers of the basics, going to school was only to have their lunch and a ride on the school bus.:(

[mashman]

I agree with most of that. Hand written essays please. Remove technology from the classrooms. Bring back the cane. Having said that though there are people hoo carnt reed or rite that have jobs. Bring back chimney sweeping too.

[awa355]

I could always see the reasoning behind Geometry, dig a post hole and work out how much cement I need to hold a 4 x 4 post. ( truth is, buy two bags of cement and have some left over ). Algebra is a form of maths, I have never had any use for throughout my life. I know it is supposed to make you solve the unknown/unseen, by thinking outside the norm. Trignometry wasn't much use either, unless you are working in a field of science I guess.

I did work with a guy once who asked our boss if he knew work out how much water a 44gallon drum would hold. :doh:

[FJRider]

How many have been shopping during a power cut. And the assistant was unable to give change (with the till open) ... until the power comes on ???

[Motu]

. Bring back the cane.

In the 3rd form we moved from arithmetic to maths, every period we had a maths test, those who failed were hauled out into the corridor and caned. Mass canings the first few days, and less as some kids learned maths and others of us learned how to cheat. Over 40 years later I found out I have a form of dyslexia called dyscalculia. In the 4th form I was able to drop maths for trade maths, where all we did was homework for the next period. Like anyone with dyslexia I've been dumb all my life, not dumb because I couldn't read, but dumb because I can't add things in my head, and giving change is something I just can't comprehend.

I don't give much credit to the modern education system, but in our enlightened society these days they might pick up on the bright kid with the advanced reading age who hasn't got a clue how to add and subtract.

[mashman]

In the 3rd form we moved from arithmetic to maths, every period we had a maths test, those who failed were hauled out into the corridor and caned. Mass canings the first few days, and less as some kids learned maths and others of us learned how to cheat. Over 40 years later I found out I have a form of dyslexia called dyscalculia. In the 4th form I was able to drop maths for trade maths, where all we did was homework for the next period. Like anyone with dyslexia I've been dumb all my life, not dumb because I couldn't read, but dumb because I can't add things in my head, and giving change is something I just can't comprehend.

I don't give much credit to the modern education system, but in our enlightened society these days they might pick up on the bright kid with the advanced reading age who hasn't got a clue how to add and subtract.

Farcanal that's a tad brutal. You sure they didn't mistake your face for your arse :shifty:...

I guess they do... but WTF would you do with those kids who are good at one thing and not another? Why would you bother doing anything with them? After all they're still only a kid. I'm kinda with the OP as the 3 R's should highlight all sorts of "anomalies", from dyslexia to the reader that can't add worth shit etc... I guess we all grow differently and have different talents, be they coping by hard work, or natural talent, good guesswork, "cheating". As you allude to, we don't have a flexible enough educational system to be able to mix those mental age groups by subject. It costs too much apparently :eek:

[Motu]

Well, we all got by in the old system - kids with learning problems aren't stupid. Someone with dyslexia might put a word in for how we cope, tricks and strategies. Dyslexics trick someone else into reading something for them....I trick someone good at maths to do a sum for me, makes them feel good, and I get the answer I need.

[Brian d marge]

I can use letters and maths together and in another language
C ++
Try that old folks

Stephen

[slowpoke]

In the 3rd form we moved from arithmetic to maths, every period we had a maths test, those who failed were hauled out into the corridor and caned. Mass canings the first few days, and less as some kids learned maths and others of us learned how to cheat. Over 40 years later I found out I have a form of dyslexia called dyscalculia. In the 4th form I was able to drop maths for trade maths, where all we did was homework for the next period. Like anyone with dyslexia I've been dumb all my life, not dumb because I couldn't read, but dumb because I can't add things in my head, and giving change is something I just can't comprehend.

I don't give much credit to the modern education system, but in our enlightened society these days they might pick up on the bright kid with the advanced reading age who hasn't got a clue how to add and subtract.

My good lady had a similar brutal experience: intermediate school, she a had maths test every morning and in front of the class you got a wallop for every question you got wrong. Wasn't long before she was so humiliated/terrified she couldn't think straight and things spiralled downhill. Fortunately her parents asked some questions and a change of teacher saw her on the way to uni with good marks in a few years. Things worked out ok for her ('cept for being lumped with me, poor woman) but I wonder how many other kids that "teacher" fucked up? A return to the old days/ways isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[slowpoke]

I can use letters and maths together and in another language
C ++
Try that old folks

Stephen

Is that slightly worse than a B-?

[mashman]

Well, we all got by in the old system - kids with learning problems aren't stupid. Someone with dyslexia might put a word in for how we cope, tricks and strategies. Dyslexics trick someone else into reading something for them....I trick someone good at maths to do a sum for me, makes them feel good, and I get the answer I need.

Ahhhhhh, tres cunning. As you say, just because you can't add, read or write doesn't make one a dumbarse by any means. You're obviously proof of that :msn-wink:

[mashman]

I can use letters and maths together and in another language
C ++
Try that old folks

Stephen

Part timer :bleh: just 1 language.

[jasonu]

I'm constantly amazed at serious darts player's ability to quickly perform lengthy mental arithmetic.

I believe it's a clear sign that beer is good for you.

Try going to a casino and watch roulette or craps dealers mentally calculate payouts. (That is if anyone is lucky enough to win of course)

[Edbear]

In the 3rd form we moved from arithmetic to maths, every period we had a maths test, those who failed were hauled out into the corridor and caned. Mass canings the first few days, and less as some kids learned maths and others of us learned how to cheat. Over 40 years later I found out I have a form of dyslexia called dyscalculia. In the 4th form I was able to drop maths for trade maths, where all we did was homework for the next period. Like anyone with dyslexia I've been dumb all my life, not dumb because I couldn't read, but dumb because I can't add things in my head, and giving change is something I just can't comprehend.

I don't give much credit to the modern education system, but in our enlightened society these days they might pick up on the bright kid with the advanced reading age who hasn't got a clue how to add and subtract.

A schoolmate was considered dumb until eventually his parents discovered he needed glasses. Once he could see the blackboard he picked up quite well....


My good lady had a similar brutal experience: intermediate school, she a had maths test every morning and in front of the class you got a wallop for every question you got wrong. Wasn't long before she was so humiliated/terrified she couldn't think straight and things spiralled downhill. Fortunately her parents asked some questions and a change of teacher saw her on the way to uni with good marks in a few years. Things worked out ok for her ('cept for being lumped with me, poor woman) but I wonder how many other kids that "teacher" fucked up? A return to the old days/ways isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Some teachers were completely unsuited to teaching

[nakedsv]

It is sad that many bright children seem to fall through the cracks because they don't learn in the "normal" way. I had a learning disability when I was younger, was still at around a 5 year old reading age at 8, luckily for me my mother worked in early childhood education and got me a tutour to figure out how my brain learned. After learning a few tricks and figuring out my brain i was quickly well ahead of my age group in reading and math.
All through high school I saw many others that were basically ignored simply because they couldn't learn easily from the teachers chosen method.

[awa355]

I have a 7yr grandson who is Autistic. At school he gets treated like the school idiot. Even with a teacher aide, he has his moments. He is really bright intelligent boy, but dosen't always see the reason to do the same things as main stream children. Toilet training was especially hard.

Sometimes I wish I could take him and keep him at home away from the world. A hundred years ago a child like Cam would have possibly been taken off his parents and put into a lunitic asylum. Thank God those days are gone.

We had some wonderful teachers back in my day, but also some that were viscious bastards. I remember one boy in std2. the teacher was always picking on him. Knocked Richard to the floor one day, then kicked the lad several times untill he had crawled out of the room. Half the class were crying. Back then the teacher got away with it. At least today, there would be some acountability.

[Brian d marge]

I have a 7yr grandson who is Autistic. At school he gets treated like the school idiot. Even with a teacher aide, he has his moments. He is really bright intelligent boy, but dosen't always see the reason to do the same things as main stream children. Toilet training was especially hard.

Sometimes I wish I could take him and keep him at home away from the world. A hundred years ago a child like Cam would have possibly been taken off his parents and put into a lunitic asylum. Thank God those days are gone.

.

My oldest

couldnt figure out why he just wasnt picking things up . then we found ( through the state ) a teachers aide. So once a week on thursday he went to this place where he learnt at his own pace. Then after a year of this special treatment ( at the same time they were thinking about the best way for teaching him) They just said , hey , hes ok , his brain is developing and he has twice as much to learn as others ( english , japanese , kanji etc ) and the doors will open in their own time .
So , with his teacher ( who often pops around to our house to have a chat ) , the boy doesnt get homework if he doesnt want it and the test are designed for him , to "test " understanding. Hes a very bright kid ( Is the only one in our house that can get the DVD to work !) but under a "traditional " educational system , yes , well .......

Now, I see myself in him and , while it is too late for me , ( explains a lot though , !) its great that schools have moved on from the days of Creakle and tthe one legged Tungay ( Dickens )


Stephen

[Ocean1]

Well, we all got by in the old system - kids with learning problems aren't stupid. Someone with dyslexia might put a word in for how we cope, tricks and strategies. Dyslexics trick someone else into reading something for them....I trick someone good at maths to do a sum for me, makes them feel good, and I get the answer I need.

I got away with learning just half of the times table, breaking every higher order problem down into ones that fit my smaller understanding, and then stitching it back together again. I could do that fast enough that it looked like I had the full set.

One day I needed the bigger numbers, for a project I was interested in. I picked up almost all of the rest pretty quickly. I was interested.