Thoughts on looking where you want to go

[R-Soul]

I was wondering why looking and target fixation while riding is so important in riding. After all, countersteering is countersteering right? I could be looking up in the air or even backwards, but if I push on one bar, I will go that way....

I have come to the conclusion that one of the most important aspects of "looking where you want to go" is the fact that it puts you on the inside side of the bike.

An important aspect of being on the inside of the bike in a corner is not that your body weight is inside - that actually does not matter too much (I believe its more important to get it low, which you can really only do if it is inside or outside)- but what is more important is that your head is closer to the inside bar so that your body has the REACH to be able to push the handlebars forward enough, and the leverage to be able to have more power in pushing the inside bar forward by bringing your legs into play.

At least on my bike, even with its forward riding position, in a hard turn its quite easy to run out of the reach required to countersteer harder/further (short arms).

Maybe thats why the bikes with the more upright riding positons with closer bars are regarded as being more agile and responsive, and are probably safer in a traffic environment, since you will always have more reach to either side if the bars are closer to you, for a quicker, harder turn.

I am not showing any bias or preference here - my bike is def's not like this.

Any thoughts?

[Maha]

Countersteering happens naturally, there is no conscious thought process involved...it's physics and geometry working in tandem.
It is natural, that when you lean a bike into a left hand corner for instance, physics dictates that you will weight the left bar.

Target fixation on the other hand, has nothing to do with science at all. The direction of the bike is under total control of the rider, where you look, is indeed, where you will go.

[bogan]

I have come to the conclusion that one of the most important aspects of "looking where you want to go" is the fact that it puts you on the inside side of the bike.

Right up there with seeing whats coming right? :whistle:

Seriously though, it changes the sensation of speed to give you mind more time to process whats coming, help visualise the line you need to take, helps position you body to take that line, and in many people starts involuntary movements to make that happen.

[Ocean1]

An important aspect of being on the inside of the bike in a corner is not that your body weight is inside - that actually does not matter too much (I believe its more important to get it low, which you can really only do if it is inside or outside)- but what is more important is that your head is closer to the inside bar so that your body has the REACH to be able to push the handlebars forward enough, and the leverage to be able to have more power in pushing the inside bar forward by bringing your legs into play.


How much do you reckon you turn the bars to initiate the countersteer required for a typical open road curve?

[Ocean1]

Target fixation on the other, has nothing to do with science at all. The direction of the bike is under total control of the rider, where you look is indeed, where you will go.

I think almost all control inputs either are or become subconcious, and that's why looking where you want to go works whether you want it to or not, it sort of instructs your subconcious to go there irrespective of what your concious mind wants.

[Maha]

I think almost all control inputs either are or become subconcious, and that's why looking where you want to go works whether you want it to or not, it sort of instructs your subconcious to go there irrespective of what your concious mind wants.

Agreed...like I said, not science.

[Asher]

When you look in a direction you do more than move your head, you also move your shoulder, hips and knees in that direction.
It also helps your balance, looking up at the horizon will help keep you rubber-side down.

[R-Soul]

Right up there with seeing whats coming right? :whistle:

Seriously though, it changes the sensation of speed to give you mind more time to process whats coming, help visualise the line you need to take, helps position you body to take that line, and in many people starts involuntary movements to make that happen.

Yeees... besides the obvious stuff why lookig is important, like not hitting shit, or because you would be blind with your eyes closed....

I am talking in the context of a sudden unexpected thing happening, like a log coming out from under the car in frint of you, or the corner tightening up suddenly. Why is looking up the road into the tightening corner so important? I think its to get your body positioning and reach and leverage right for a harder turn.

[R-Soul]

Target fixation on the other, has nothing to do with science at all. The direction of the bike is under total control of the rider, where you look is indeed, where you will go.


Not necessarily. I have been playing around with that, and I can steer way from where I am looking without too much trouble. I just need to pre-position my body. I probably would not be able to in an emergency though - but that is because by doing the looking thing, it causes me to position my body properly.

[R-Soul]

How much do you reckon you turn the bars to initiate the countersteer required for a typical open road curve?

It snot much, but I believe that its not so much the extent of turn as the high force required to push it, or a combo of both.
Having said that, my bike is a little heavy to turn, and my arms are relatively short...

[R-Soul]

When you look in a direction you do more than move your head, you also move your shoulder, hips and knees in that direction.
It also helps your balance, looking up at the horizon will help keep you rubber-side down.

And by leaning in, it also straightens the link between your oustide foot and your inside hand, making it more rigid, and longer,and allowing more force through your legs.

[p.dath]

I'll put it to you that the human brain does not have enough conscious power to manage all the tasks to control a bike.

As a result, we have to rely on the sub-conscious mind to do a lot of the process. Just think about all the things that have to happen to make a turn. Just consider all the tendons that have to move just to allow you to lean your body. Fine motor control is another example.


So yes, most definitely when you start looking in a direction your sub-conscious mind wants to take you there, weather you conscious mind likes it or not. And your conscious mind has to spend extra effort to prevent it. Personally, I don't want to be spending extra conscious effort to fight my sub-conscious mind. I want my whole brain to be working in unison.

[R-Soul]

Agreed...like I said, not science.

I am not saying that you should not look where yuo want to go - avoiding target fixation is first choice - that much is obvious. I am just questioning the reason behind the reason.

Maybe one day that understanding will allow me to avoid an accident by doing what I need to do even though I am target fixating.

[Maha]

Not necessarily. I have been playing around with that, and I can steer way from where I am looking without too much trouble. I just need to pre-position my body. I probably would not be able to in an emergency though - but that is because by doing the looking thing, it causes me to position my body properly.
Of cause you can..did you miss this bit in my post?
But missing something on the road is NOT taget fixation.
The reason behind the reason? it's a term that decribes why you have hit something (or not missed something if you will) when you had no intention of doing so.

The direction of the bike is under total control of the rider

[Deano]

I'll put it to you that the human brain does not have enough conscious power to manage all the tasks to control a bike.

As a result, we have to rely on the sub-conscious mind to do a lot of the process.

Subconscious is still human brain....don't your comments contradict each other ?

As a racer, I don't believe that I am not in total control of my bike. That would only be negative and could cost me tenths of seconds.

The only target I am fixating on is 1st place.

[Ocean1]

And by leaning in, it also straightens the link between your oustide foot and your inside hand, making it more rigid, and longer,and allowing more force through your legs.

You're aware that the opposite is regarded as correct technique on dirt bikes?

Not so much lean out as put the bike down and sit on it.

And teh geometry isn't the reason.

[p.dath]

Subconscious is still human brain....don't your comments contradict each other ?

As a racer, I don't believe that I am not in total control of my bike. That would only be negative and could cost me tenths of seconds.

The only target I am fixating on is 1st place.

Negative. The subconscious and conscious parts of the brain are quite different. They don't even share the same memory centres. For example, the conscious brain can't recall a memory from the sub-conscious brain.

Here is an example question. Tell me how you swallow, in detail. A simple question, do you suck the fluid in or let gravity allow it to flow into your mouth? Most people have to mimic swallowing before they can answer, because swallowing is done by the subconscious section of the brain - and the conscious brain can't access that memory - and can only observe what the subconscious does.

An expert rider *must* use their subconscious brain for machine control.

[Deano]

Negative. The subconscious and conscious parts of the brain are quite different. They don't even share the same memory centres. For example, the conscious brain can't recall a memory from the sub-conscious brain.

Here is an example question. Tell me how you swallow, in detail. A simple question, do you suck the fluid in or let gravity allow it to flow into your mouth? Most people have to mimic swallowing before they can answer, because swallowing is done by the subconscious section of the brain - and the conscious brain can't access that memory - and can only observe what the subconscious does.

An expert rider *must* use their subconscious brain for machine control.

Like repetitive training and reflex/instinct. The mind can control things that most people cannot comprehend, or understand.

I can remember swallowing my last mouthful of beer, or taking a shit this morning....

I prefer to think that I am in control, consciously or subconsciously.

But I am a bit of a control freak. I'm quite happy to push a bike to its limits but not bungy or skydive.

[bogan]

Yeees... besides the obvious stuff why lookig is important, like not hitting shit, or because you would be blind with your eyes closed....

I am talking in the context of a sudden unexpected thing happening, like a log coming out from under the car in frint of you, or the corner tightening up suddenly. Why is looking up the road into the tightening corner so important? I think its to get your body positioning and reach and leverage right for a harder turn.

The corner tightening up suddenly? Dunno about up your way, but down here the roads don't move. And the cars aren't tall enough to clear a log either!

Looking up the road is about more to do with what you can see by doing so, and how this affects the subconscious movements, than giving you super strength or leverage. Go into a car park and try to navigate a turn looking 5m ahead, then again looking 10m ahead, then finally looking right through it; the line you take will be a lot smoother on the last one.

[Ocean1]

Like repetitive training and reflex/instinct. The mind can control things that most people cannot comprehend, or understand.

Yeah, but whereas your concious mind can juggle abstract concepts and predict consequences (with a few clues) your subconcious can't. The only way you can imporve your subconcious riding performance, (almost all of the motor functions to start with) is to practice. With enough practice you can program your subconcious reactions to match the practice routines your concious logic knows are "correct".

See if you can get your hands on a copy of "The Upper Half of the Motorcycle". The word. From possibly the most qualified man on the planet.

[Deano]

The only way you can imporve your subconcious riding performance, (almost all of the motor functions to start with) is to practice. With enough practice you can program your subconcious reactions to match the practice routines your concious logic knows are "correct".

See if you can get your hands on a copy of "The Upper Half of the Motorcycle". The word. From possibly the most qualified man on the planet.

Isn't that what I meant re reflexes and actions becoming instinctive?

I'll look up that reference - was it written by Mick, Mike, Ago or Vale ?

[Deano]

For example, the conscious brain can't recall a memory from the sub-conscious brain.

Here is an example question. Tell me how you swallow, in detail. A simple question, do you suck the fluid in or let gravity allow it to flow into your mouth?

I bet you tell that to all the girls you fucking deviat. :lol:

[Ocean1]

Isn't that what I meant re reflexes and actions becoming instinctive?

I'll look up that reference - was it written by Mick, Mike, Ago or Vale ?

Probably. I havn't practiced Deano anywhere near enough to say. Guess I was just asserting that the two are distinctly different, one able to be imporved through abstract study, the other only through repeated "imprinting".

Bernt Spiegel. Popular German book, translated tortuously into English. Hard work but bloody interesting. http://www.amazon.com/Upper-Half-Motorcycle-Unity-Machine/dp/1884313752

[Deano]

Probably. I havn't practiced Deano anywhere near enough to say.

Come for a play on TRTNR sometime mate - it's been great fun lately. Good opportunity to test the practice and reflexes. LOL Be good to meet you in person too.

[Ocean1]

Come for a play on TRTNR sometime mate - it's been great fun lately. Good opportunity to test the practice and reflexes. LOL Be good to meet you in person too.

You'd have had to spot me a pint on the 1125 mate, on the Uly you'd be on the way back before I blew the foam off.

[Mom]

I think almost all control inputs either are or become subconcious, and that's why looking where you want to go works whether you want it to or not, it sort of instructs your subconcious to go there irrespective of what your concious mind wants.

Having experienced the look where you want to go, or friggen end up in the culvert moment, I can hand on heart say that...

Looking where you go, you normally do without thinking about it.

If you make a bad call, or have a brain fart, deliberately looking where you want to go, can, and does save your arse!

Being aware of where you look, you go, in my opinion, is one of the best lessons you can learn on 2 wheels :yes:

[Ocean1]

Being aware of where you look, you go, in my opinion, is one of the best lessons you can learn on 2 wheels :yes:

Aye. It's a lesson I've had to learn many times. You think you've got it sussed, looking through and beyond that greasy log you're flying along at mach III; and you just flick your eyes to check that rock off to the side, there...

[nerrrd]

Looking where I wanted to go got me through some challenging (for me) corners today with nothing worse than a scraped boot - I would say focussing on that gave my subconscious room to make the necessary adjustments.

What I worry about most is having to react quickly (and appropriately) to an obstacle, like when a ute I was behind drifted completely over to the other side of the road at one stage (and if I'd been coming the other way).

[Hugo Nougo]

With out question, practising looking where you want to go pays off, the sub consciousness (Fuk spelling) takes over, martial arts are all about repetition. I remember an 8m log at night on a left hand corner between Taupo and Rotorua, one end on the centre line reflected in the headlight, something inside tells me to flick right, my brother follows me, thank god, the other end is in the left hand ditch. Practice makes perfect.

[R-Soul]

The corner tightening up suddenly? Dunno about up your way, but down here the roads don't move. And the cars aren't tall enough to clear a log either!

Looking up the road is about more to do with what you can see by doing so, and how this affects the subconscious movements, than giving you super strength or leverage. Go into a car park and try to navigate a turn looking 5m ahead, then again looking 10m ahead, then finally looking right through it; the line you take will be a lot smoother on the last one.

Never gheard that language before? A corner tightens up when it has decreasing radius and you cannot see the entire corner at tey start. hence 'tightening up'.

And yes, cars do clear logs in NZ. The log that smashed both of my rims came out from under a car on the harbour bridge. Thats was definitely no 'plank'!

[R-Soul]

You're aware that the opposite is regarded as correct technique on dirt bikes?

Not so much lean out as put the bike down and sit on it.

And teh geometry isn't the reason.

But the accepted technique on dirt bikes is to follow the ruts, so you dont need the same amount of turn anyway.

[R-Soul]

You're aware that the opposite is regarded as correct technique on dirt bikes?

Not so much lean out as put the bike down and sit on it.

And teh geometry isn't the reason.

Also on dirt bikes, you actually try to break the back away, to use the rotation of the wheels to counter the centripetal forces, rather than the traction of the wheels on the dirt.

[bogan]

Never gheard that language before? A corner tightens up when it has decreasing radius and you cannot see the entire corner at tey start. hence 'tightening up'.

And yes, cars do clear logs in NZ. The log that smashed both of my rims came out from under a car on the harbour bridge. Thats was definitely no 'plank'!

What I meant was, a tightening corner is not something that happens unexpectedly.

Sound like a twig mate, logs are the ones that fit about a dozen to a semi-trailer.


Also on dirt bikes, you actually try to break the back away, to use the rotation of the wheels to counter the centripetal forces, rather than the traction of the wheels on the dirt.

Have you ridden dirt bikes much?

[Metastable]

Bogan touched on this.... but think of it this way.

- The further you look up the road, the more time you give your brain to process what is going on. i.e. it is almost like it slows things down. If you look closer to the bike, things seem faster... look further they seem slower. The faster your brain can process what is going on, the easier things become.

- Now take that thought, if you look where you want to go if "$#!T happens", then it gives one a better chance of putting the bike where it should go. If you are looking at the tweety birds, but doing everything else correctly, chances are you will make the corner too, however what is more likely to happen...... is that your brain will become "overloaded" and panic. Looking where you want to go, gives your melon a better chance of reacting correctly to the situation.

- Final point - LOOKING where you want to go, does not necessarily mean FOCUSING where you want to go. There is a great section on Twist of the Wrist II that talks about this. It is a fantastic weapon for road riding, especially for busy intersections or situations where there is a lot going on. Sit down in a room and look in the distance.... pick 4 objects. Focus on these objects one at a time and and switch your focus from one to the next as fast as possible. That is actually hard. Now instead of focusing on any object, look at the middle of all of those 4 objects, but keep all the objects in your peripheral. Now without moving your eyes, move your attention towards each object... from one to the next... actually you will notice that you can keep attention on all the objects at once. This is a great tool, both for street riding and track riding. Again, it helps to slow things down.

At the end of the day, looking where you want to go allows your brain to process information fast enough to allow you to make the right decision.

[R-Soul]

What I meant was, a tightening corner is not something that happens unexpectedly.
Of course it can happen unexpectedly if you are unfamiliar with the road and cannot see the ned of the corner when you start going into it.



Sound like a twig mate, logs are the ones that fit about a dozen to a semi-trailer.
That "twig" was enough to smash BOTH my rims.





Have you ridden dirt bikes much?


A bit - back in SA. And i have spent a lot of time thnnking about it. That is when you are not following a rut obviously...

[nodrog]

......

At least on my bike, even with its forward riding position, in a hard turn its quite easy to run out of the reach required to countersteer harder/further (short arms).

.....

Have you got Cerebral palsy or somthing? cant you just pull with your inside arm?

[bogan]

Of course it can happen unexpectedly if you are unfamiliar with the road and cannot see the ned of the corner when you start going into it.

This is where the phrase 'expect the unexpected' works well, if you can't see the end of the corner, its best to assume the middle is further along the road.


That "twig" was enough to smash BOTH my rims.

Ok, lets call it a stick then, happy?


A bit - back in SA. And i have spent a lot of time thnnking about it. That is when you are not following a rut obviously...

I think you need to spend a bit more time testing those theories in the real world then, I have no idea how you think stepping out or spinning the rear does things with the centripetal forces. Its about getting grip on an uneven surface where grip is more about the 'mechanical interlock' than it is about friction.

[R-Soul]

Have you got Cerebral palsy or somthing? cant you just pull with your inside arm?

You obviously mean pull with my outside arm? You push with your inside arm when countersteering.

Pulling hard is also not ideal, since if you are not properly hooked around or wedged against something like your tank, you can end up slipping.

[Usarka]

What the fuck is an inside arm? The one stuck up your arse? :wacko:


With out question, practising looking where you want to go pays off, the sub consciousness

I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

[nodrog]

You obviously mean pull with my outside arm? You push with your inside arm when countersteering.

Pulling hard is also not ideal, since if you are not properly hooked around or wedged against something like your tank, you can end up slipping.

sorry, i was in sidecar mode.

pulling hard is never ideal.

[R-Soul]

I think you need to spend a bit more time testing those theories in the real world then, I have no idea how you think stepping out or spinning the rear does things with the centripetal forces. Its about getting grip on an uneven surface where grip is more about the 'mechanical interlock' than it is about friction.


I would love to test those theories more in the real world, but cant afford a dirt bike right now.

Even though you have mechanical interlock with the top layer of dirt, whats stops thr next layer down from slipping - and lets face it friction in dirt is not very much.

So instead of relying on friction, the wheel steps out a little, like you would see in that dirt speedway racing. When it is stepped out, looking at the rear wheel from the top in a corner, the direction of alignment of the rear wheel has a radial component. The rear wheel is therfore partly providing a pushing force inward radially in a corner. The inward force in the corner is created by interlock (like you say) creating pure friction acting in a direction transverse to the direction of travel of the wheel, but also the inward component of the wheels driving force (i.e. from it turning) driving partly inwardly. And probably to a lot more minor extent, the dirt being kicked out backward having a reaction force going forward (principle of conservation of momentum and all that).


Try testing this theory by trying to go around a corner fast (on a flat dirt track - not rutted) without having your throttle hard open. I do not believe that you would be able to coast around a corner leaning over with no throttle being applied, as fast as you would be able to go around the corner with the back stepped out and the throttle open.

[R-Soul]

What the fuck is an inside arm? The one stuck up your arse? :wacko:



I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

I was not discussing that kind of riding - although you seem to be quite familiar with it....

[90s]

I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

Totally right. I mountain bike all the time, at Woodhill out back for example you need to be looking at the path through the trees. Target fixation will take you down. And you look where you go, and its nothing to do with body position and everything to do with the cognitive arguments people have made here.

Example - in yesterday rain on Scenic drive I got the biggest sideways powerslide on than I've had for years. By the time I thought "whoaa sh..." my learned motor skills and 25 years of tacit skills built up through experience on bikes had corrected the problem and sorted it out. I am 100% sure if "I", my conscious mind, had had time to react I would have binned it.

And don't forget, countersteering is NOT physics, or something that happens naturally. The physics of gyroscopes is all well and good, steering is something YOU do, and learners (many of very young kids on bicycles) fight the coutnersteering effect at first, trained initially to steer "right to go right." Many people tacitly learn to CS, but again if you ask them how they steer are unaware of the effect. And if they are unaware, in an emergency can fight countersteering forces. Which is why being in control is about developing the right tacit skills to kick in when needed.

I've seen some fo the BRONZ guys demo riding figs. of 8s with hands crossed over, looking the opposite way etc, and what they are doing is proving all this, not the opposite - by showing how demanding it is to do the opposite. You can do it for some time, but the information processing and concentration it requires means its just a party trick. Shows you have great tacit and explicit skills though.

[bogan]

I would love to test those theories more in the real world, but cant afford a dirt bike right now.

Even though you have mechanical interlock with the top layer of dirt, whats stops thr next layer down from slipping - and lets face it friction in dirt is not very much.

So instead of relying on friction, the wheel steps out a little, like you would see in that dirt speedway racing. When it is stepped out, looking at the rear wheel from the top in a corner, the direction of alignment of the rear wheel has a radial component. The rear wheel is therfore partly providing a pushing force inward radially in a corner. The inward force in the corner is created by interlock (like you say) creating pure friction acting in a direction transverse to the direction of travel of the wheel, but also the inward component of the wheels driving force (i.e. from it turning) driving partly inwardly. And probably to a lot more minor extent, the dirt being kicked out backward having a reaction force going forward (principle of conservation of momentum and all that).


Try testing this theory by trying to go around a corner fast (on a flat dirt track - not rutted) without having your throttle hard open. I do not believe that you would be able to coast around a corner leaning over with no throttle being applied, as fast as you would be able to go around the corner with the back stepped out and the throttle open.

Ok now I see what you mean, it's still the traction that is providing the cornering force though. It just provides it through oversteer because of the directional nature of traction on slippery surfaces. It sounded like you meant the gyro forces from the rotation or something obscure, not the slip; also, the slip/traction provides the centripetal force, it counters the centrifugal forces.

[granstar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTsKlVTftO8

[Berries]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTsKlVTftO8
Classic. That should be posted in the 'why do people use cameras' thread. That truck was so close.


Not.

[awa355]

283967

I always look where I want to go,:pinch:

[Bison]

Target fixation.....always look for the solution and NOT at the problem. Push steering is one way to avoid the problem as you steer towards the solution. The bike will go where you look. I tell my new students to assume that their eyes are connected to the front axle. Wherever their eyes go, so goeth the bike. As a retired career Traffic Copper (who has attended thousands of crashes over 28 years) I can tell you that most crashes where the rider was at fault, it was because of improper braking, cornering and swerving. The Hurt Report found the same thing. Looking away from the problem takes a determined effort for the new rider, but the results are worth that effort.

[BoristheBiter]

But the accepted technique on dirt bikes is to follow the ruts, so you dont need the same amount of turn anyway.


Also on dirt bikes, you actually try to break the back away, to use the rotation of the wheels to counter the centripetal forces, rather than the traction of the wheels on the dirt.

Try that on a dirt bike and you'll be on your arse, you never want to ride in ruts.

[george formby]

Oy tink all this talk of counter steering & bike dynamics as a consequence of looking where you want to go is over complicating things. Take bikes out of the discussion & no matter what our motivation we go where we look, skiing, running, rollerskating, sat in the car etc. It's a by product of being tall, forward looking hunters. When we engage our brains & eyes on the same task our bodies react to make that task happen. Take your eye off the task & you wobble.
The same process applies to throwing a spear, rock or firing an arrow or bullet. The eyes supply the info, the brain processes it & the body makes it happen.
Being savvy, educated bikers we understand bike dynamics & apply suitable control but when the shit is about to hit the fan it's still faster & more accurate just to look for the safe exit & let our evolution take care of it. The few times I've been in a situation where my eyeballs are pressed against the visor & my mouth is hanging open I've only had time to move my eyes to the escape route. At that point everything else is coming into play, not consciously either.
Practicing bike control just makes this natural process more effective & prevents an over reaction.

Just my half baked take on it all.

[bogan]

Try that on a dirt bike and you'll be on your arse, you never want to ride in ruts.

Actually in many situations you really do, compensating for lean through ruts (which are essentially like riding on rails) takes some practice, but when done right it handles like it's on rails!

[SuperMac]

Oy tink all this talk of counter steering & bike dynamics as a consequence of looking where you want to go is over complicating things. Take bikes out of the discussion & no matter what our motivation we go where we look, skiing, running, rollerskating, sat in the car etc. It's a by product of being tall, forward looking hunters. When we engage our brains & eyes on the same task our bodies react to make that task happen. Take your eye off the task & you wobble.

At that point everything else is coming into play, not consciously either.
Practicing bike control just makes this natural process more effective & prevents an over reaction.

Yes but No but . . .

Trouble is, if someone has been a car driver for years, their instinctive reaction won't be to counter-steer when, f'rinstance, a corner tightens, it'll be to 'steer into' the corner - with obvious potentially catastrophic results.

Are you actually suggesting that no rider should eve be taught how to steer accurately?

[BMWST?]

Yes but No but . . .

Trouble is, if someone has been a car driver for years, their instinctive reaction won't be to counter-steer when, f'rinstance, a corner tightens, it'll be to 'steer into' the corner - with obvious potentially catastrophic results.

Are you actually suggesting that no rider should eve be taught how to steer accurately?


it doesnt matter.If you look where you want to go you have a much much better chance of going there,the body knows how if the brain lets it

[george formby]

Yes but No but . . .


Are you actually suggesting that no rider should eve be taught how to steer accurately?

Awwww yeah na yeah. Na. Just the opposite, the more you learn about controlling a bike, the more effective your reaction when an instant decision is required.

[BoristheBiter]

Actually in many situations you really do, compensating for lean through ruts (which are essentially like riding on rails) takes some practice, but when done right it handles like it's on rails!

Well you carry on riding in ruts i will steer clear of them.

[unstuck]

Ruts are good.:Punk::Punk:

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[BoristheBiter]

Ruts are good.:Punk::Punk:



OK go try and ride one.:crazy:

Mind you i guess a few have been ridden by a rut.
Gives a new meaning to a rooted rut.

[unstuck]

There are some ruts on the western side of the dome at mossburn that if a bike and rider fall in you cannot see them. only little ridges to ride on and going up the side of a dirty big hill. If you fall in, it is a long way back to where you can get out again. Makes picking a line alongside the ruts fun.:wacko:

[BoristheBiter]

There are some ruts on the western side of the dome at mossburn that if a bike and rider fall in you cannot see them. only little ridges to ride on and going up the side of a dirty big hill. If you fall in, it is a long way back to where you can get out again. Makes picking a line alongside the ruts fun.:wacko:

There is a few like that in Riverhead. the gap between the ruts isn't flat and in the wet you always seem to end up with the front in one and back in another.

[unstuck]

There is a few like that in Riverhead. the gap between the ruts isn't flat and in the wet you always seem to end up with the front in one and back in another.

Im hearin ya, been a few times I have put my foot on thin air and ended up in an untidy heap, should be fun at the dome tomorrow though cos now it is all under a half meter or more of snow, so we wont be able to see the ruts until were in em. we never made it last year due to snow but this year I have a cunning plan.:Punk::Punk:

[BoristheBiter]

Im hearin ya, been a few times I have put my foot on thin air and ended up in an untidy heap, should be fun at the dome tomorrow though cos now it is all under a half meter or more of snow, so we wont be able to see the ruts until were in em. we never made it last year due to snow but this year I have a cunning plan.:Punk::Punk:

Skidoo?

We will be at Woodhill playing it wet sand.

[bogan]

Well you carry on riding in ruts i will steer clear of them.

Track or trails? Might have a bit to do with it, I've found trail ride ruts are more difficult as they are less 'on line' and you don't get to practice em by going round the same corner. But on the track, ruts are generally made by those getting the power down through the corner, and those cunt know how to ride, so I'm happy as to follow their lines while getting the massive traction boost ruts provide.

[BoristheBiter]

Track or trails? Might have a bit to do with it, I've found trail ride ruts are more difficult as they are less 'on line' and you don't get to practice em by going round the same corner. But on the track, ruts are generally made by those getting the power down through the corner, and those cunt know how to ride, so I'm happy as to follow their lines while getting the massive traction boost ruts provide.

Yeah big difference i was talking trail. yes you are right as track you treat them more as berm.