Race bikes and rider aids (electronic)

[codgyoleracer]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?. Thats the question. Ime writing an article on the matter, - what are your thoughts ?

[MIXONE]

Probably showing my age here but I much preferred the days of the bucking,snorting semi out of control 500 2 strokes.

[Danger Dave]

Personally i like watching bikes on the limit of control, the sliding, wheelstanding goodness of it all, the electronics are good for lap times but not for watching, in my opinion.

[Kiwi Graham]

Glen , Ive got a foot in both camps.

1. As the spectator the more dramatic the spectical the better. Sliding bikes, wheel stands and the obviouse effort to control a massivly powerful bike get its power through two small patches of rubber on to the circuit so the less aids the better.

or

2. As a rider I like the technical apect of getting these aids to work for you. You cant just plug them in and away you go, testing, tweeking, adjusting, adopting a different riding style and the ability to modify the whole package for individual circuits even corners on circuits is fasinating too.

[Mental Trousers]

In my job (part Sys Admin part programmer) I'm working with computers every day. Given the time and money I'd love to sit down and create my own fuel injection + ignition module. But I don't have any interest in creating or using any sort of traction/wheelie control or other rider aid.

May have something to do with my bike having a modest power output with decent chassis, suspension and tyres meaning I fire it out from the apex at full throttle at full lean, but I don't know. If someone were to put me on a Superbike I might feel different, however I don't think so. I actually love making the thing slide around and squirm.

For me, the best era in modern GP racing wasn't during the 500 2 strokes, it was the 990's. Loads of torque everywhere and power to burn with only the rider to blame if he lost the back.

[Grumph]

The best riders will always come out on top regardless of electronic assistance.....

BUT the aids available now and, projecting forward a little, those coming, will enable the "just off the top rung" riders to compete at least most of the time with the greats.

Whether this is a good thing or not is of course dependent on where you stand....Sponsors may love it, spectators may hate it.

Personally, I love watching the really good guys (and the odd girl) wrestling with really evil overpowered and undertyred machinery - don't even care if they beat it into submission or not - it's the battle that you watch.

[budda]

The best riders will always come out on top regardless of electronic assistance.....


Personally, I love watching the really good guys (and the odd girl) wrestling with really evil overpowered and undertyred machinery - don't even care if they beat it into submission or not - it's the battle that you watch.

Still daydreaming of me on the Mighty Horace I see ................. Hurry Up and finish Daves 4fiddy for me !

[Maido]

But with rider aids you can just wack the throttle on mid corner and it does the rest.....

This is my favourite statement on bike racing.

The thing people forget is that there is probably more lap time made up into and through a corner before traction control kicks in and you drive off.
Pushing the front into a corner is all rider, sure abs might stop the brakes locking, but the rider dictates how late he/she brakes, and more importantly lifts off the brakes. A computer cannot do that.

[crazy man]

But with rider aids you can just wack the throttle on mid corner and it does the rest.....

This is my favourite statement on bike racing.

The thing people forget is that there is probably more lap time made up into and through a corner before traction control kicks in and you drive off.
Pushing the front into a corner is all rider, sure abs might stop the brakes locking, but the rider dictates how late he/she brakes, and more importantly lifts off the brakes. A computer cannot do that.easy one is find out motor gp times before traction control and then with it . anyone want to find out. l would like to know

[JayRacer37]

easy one is find out motor gp times before traction control and then with it . anyone want to find out. l would like to know

Given that it was accepted Honda was messing with TC on the latest NSR's, and certainly the RC211V in it's first iterations, it would be a hard comparison indeed to see specifically the affects of TC/Wheelie Control/Throttle management mapping without taking into account, power/chassis/tyre updates.

From reports I have seen from riders, the best won't go faster, they will just be more consistent. And perhaps crash a little less. Consistency (or the ease of obtaining it) is what creates the current poor racing spectacle. Look at WSBK, where a different, less extreme tyre spec means the bikes move a little more, and the 'ideal' line can be a little less strict. That means two (or three, or more) guys can be on different lines and corner solutions, but the same pace, creating opportunities to pass. Also you can see the bikes move which is awesome! WSBK is a good example also as their electronic aids are very nearly (if not completely) on par with MotoGP.

Flexi chassis or skinny tyres would give the racing back and keep the electronics...

[HenryDorsetCase]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?. Thats the question. Ime writing an article on the matter, - what are your thoughts ?

the cream will always rise to the top. mmmmmmm creeeeeeeam.

If Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi and Marquez and the rest of the grid were riding Vespas round the Basin Reserve, those four would be out front. Except Colin Edwards and Nicky Hayden might be a tad closer.

People bleat on about "spectacle" and all that. The spectacle they are talking about is slides turning into highsides and then your favourite rider getting drilled into the track like a depleted uranium shell fired from an M1A1 Abrams. Shit's not cool, yo.

And if racing is a team sport, then the best team will win, right? and in 2011 that team includes the electronics guy. And if my electronics pack and setup is better than yours on the day, all else being equal then I will win. How is that wrong, or unsportsmanlike?

Not only that, but if racing improves the breed then electronics MUST continue and continue to be improved. Think about the trickle downs from racing over the years: disc brakes, MOAR Power, EFI, now ABS, and you can buy a bike with ABS and TC and some bikes with the full suite. That is progress.

Nah, I am all for it, and I completely disagree that it has in and of itself made prototype racing boring. What is needed is more factories and more money .... and more electronics. And no fucking control tyres. We want Pirelli Michelin, Goodyear and Dunlop back. Bridgestone can stay if they want. It also needs less carmella Soprano Ezpezeta.

[HenryDorsetCase]

easy one is find out motor gp times before traction control and then with it . anyone want to find out. l would like to know

not comparing apples with apples though.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Given that it was accepted Honda was messing with TC on the latest NSR's, and certainly the RC211V in it's first iterations, it would be a hard comparison indeed to see specifically the affects of TC/Wheelie Control/Throttle management mapping without taking into account, power/chassis/tyre updates.

From reports I have seen from riders, the best won't go faster, they will just be more consistent. And perhaps crash a little less. Consistency (or the ease of obtaining it) is what creates the current poor racing spectacle. Look at WSBK, where a different, less extreme tyre spec means the bikes move a little more, and the 'ideal' line can be a little less strict. That means two (or three, or more) guys can be on different lines and corner solutions, but the same pace, creating opportunities to pass. Also you can see the bikes move which is awesome! WSBK is a good example also as their electronic aids are very nearly (if not completely) on par with MotoGP.

Flexi chassis or skinny tyres would give the racing back and keep the electronics...

Why not just watch dirt track out of the states or speedway here if you want to see the bikes move round? Plus you get the benefit of close racing, AND crashes. No TC or anti wheelie or anti spin there.

[Robert Taylor]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?. Thats the question. Ime writing an article on the matter, - what are your thoughts ?

Bring it on, the more technology the better.

[wharfy]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?. Thats the question. Ime writing an article on the matter, - what are your thoughts ?

I don't think they spoil the fun - Electronics or not I think anyone who even throws their leg over a MotoGP bike and turns up the wick is fuckin' awesome !!

I've been to ONE MotoGP event (Silverstone 2010, the round after Rossi broke his leg :( ) IT WAS AMAZING !!
Watching it on TV or you tube clips of the top guy's is cool, but you don't REALLY get an idea of just how fast they are going unless you are there.

Going fast is what it is all about who can go fastest on a motorbike, who makes the fastest motorbike, which team can adapt to the different circuits and keep up the effort for a whole season and win the title.
The "spectacle" is not diminished (in MY opinion)

There is plenty of stunt riding/drifting etc. to be found if you want to watch that sort of thing (and I do :) )
I've been in the Computer bizz for 1/4 of a century and have some appreciation of just how clever the electronic aids are and how much computer "horsepower" they require (and how clever a human being is to even ride a motorbike with/or without them).

[Robert Taylor]

I don't think they spoil the fun - Electronics or not I think anyone who even throws their leg over a MotoGP bike and turns up the wick is fuckin' awesome !!

I've been to ONE MotoGP event (Silverstone 2010, the round after Rossi broke his leg :( ) IT WAS AMAZING !!
Watching it on TV or you tube clips of the top guy's is cool, but you don't REALLY get an idea of just how fast they are going unless you are there.

Going fast is what it is all about who can go fastest on a motorbike, who makes the fastest motorbike, which team can adapt to the different circuits and keep up the effort for a whole season and win the title.
The "spectacle" is not diminished (in MY opinion)

There is plenty of stunt riding/drifting etc. to be found if you want to watch that sort of thing (and I do :) )
I've been in the Computer bizz for 1/4 of a century and have some appreciation of just how clever the electronic aids are and how much computer "horsepower" they require (and how clever a human being is to even ride a motorbike with/or without them).

Exactly, and technological progress has been relentless through the decades, why artificially stop it / dilute it ? There are plenty of ''traction control aids'' which oversimplistically are a band aid and substitute poorly for currently banned technologies in MotoGP and WSBK, namely electronically controlled suspension. That one technology has the potential to not insignificantly increase corner speeds, foreshorten braking distances and raise exit speeds. Ohlins successfully proved it in WSBK, then the cavemen rulemakers promptly banned it. Other suspension manufacturers were also developing systems.
Such tecnologies usually start in high end racing and in time trickle down, thats great.
30 years ago you'd turn up at a race meeting with a box full of jets and needles and youd spend all day fiddling with your accursed flatslides. Now you turn up with a laptop and a communictaion cable, thats positive progress.

[jellywrestler]

Exactly, and technological progress has been relentless through the decades, why artificially stop it / dilute it ? There are plenty of ''traction control aids'' which oversimplistically are a band aid and substitute poorly for currently banned technologies in MotoGP and WSBK, namely electronically controlled suspension. That one technology has the potential to not insignificantly increase corner speeds, foreshorten braking distances and raise exit speeds. Ohlins successfully proved it in WSBK, then the cavemen rulemakers promptly banned it. Other suspension manufacturers were also developing systems.
Such tecnologies usually start in high end racing and in time trickle down, thats great.
30 years ago you'd turn up at a race meeting with a box full of jets and needles and youd spend all day fiddling with your accursed flatslides. Now you turn up with a laptop and a communictaion cable, thats positive progress.
i've got a cigarette lighter on my old Suzuki GS850 that's a handy wee attachment

[JayRacer37]

Why not just watch dirt track out of the states or speedway here if you want to see the bikes move round? Plus you get the benefit of close racing, AND crashes. No TC or anti wheelie or anti spin there.

Ah, cos the fun is seeing a road bike do it...and making it do it too! MX has the bikes all over the place but it doesn't appeal to me in the same way.

In saying that, I don't think TC is a bad thing (nor did I state so!). Tyre technology has as much blame for processional racing, if not more so. Tyre competition would help, or a spec tyre that wasn't so very precise. In saying that, they do the best lap times...

I think rather than numb corner exit electronics (TC, wheelie control) which genuinly help stop crashes as you mentioned above, there should be some limitations on corner entry electronics. Look at Moto2 where this is already in place, because the bikes are harder to get stopped perfectly, the riders miss apexes occasionally and it creates the close racing we crave. In 2002/03, remember watching Rossi fighting the RCV up to the corner as it only had a mechanical slipper clutch, not a complex over-run system and an auto blipper. I think this would give us some excitement, without loosing totally the technolgical marvels and ability that we have currently.

[roogazza]

30 years ago you'd turn up at a race meeting with a box full of jets and needles and youd spend all day fiddling with your accursed flatslides. Now you turn up with a laptop and a communictaion cable, thats positive progress.

279955 Yes Robert, gives them much more time for the serious stuff !!!

Even the little guys that look about 12yrs old by the way, so professional.
279956

[HenryDorsetCase]

279955 Yes Robert, gives them much more time for the serious stuff !!!



She looks like some sort of exotic wading bird.

[Robert Taylor]

279955 Yes Robert, gives them much more time for the serious stuff !!!

Even the little guys that look about 12yrs old by the way, so professional.
279956

My youngest daughter looks like that, Ive largely managed to keep her away from motorcyclists. Except Seth who needed a bib when he set eyes upon her. ( she has stunning genes from my gene pool )

[jellywrestler]

My youngest daughter looks like that, Ive largely managed to keep her away from motorcyclists. better the devil you know....

[budda]

My youngest daughter looks like that, Ive largely managed to keep her away from motorcyclists. )

....... have to admit I'm surprised you let her WEAR such a nice labour red pit shirt like that .......

[crazy man]

agree with Robert . nz bikes need rider aid because of poor set up.

[Robert Taylor]

agree with Robert . nz bikes need rider aid because of poor set up.

So you're the first candidate then...............?????????????

[Robert Taylor]

....... have to admit I'm surprised you let her WEAR such a nice labour red pit shirt like that .......

She is a tory, otherwise she wouldnt be allowed to live under the same roof.

[scracha]

My youngest daughter looks like that, Ive largely managed to keep her away from motorcyclists. Except Seth who needed a bib when he set eyes upon her. ( she has stunning genes from my gene pool )

Going by your previous posts about hot women then I'm imagining a young Margaret Thatcher.

[Robert Taylor]

Going by your previous posts about hot women then I'm imagining a young Margaret Thatcher.

There is no doubt that as a champion of hard work and enterprise Maggie would totally embrace the technologies this thread is about. And as one who doesnt suffer fools she would deride those who oppose progress. Its a real pity she cannot be cloned.

[Kickaha]

There is no doubt that as a champion of hard work and enterprise Maggie would totally embrace the technologies this thread is about. And as one who doesnt suffer fools she would deride those who oppose progress. Its a real pity she cannot be cloned.
You really want her to have your babies dont you

[suzuki21]

Electronic aids are awesome for the top guys as they can get the little advantage - like the guy next to them. For lesser riders they can.................. I dont know, but there seems to be a lot of serious accidents lately.

[suzuki21]

Robert Taylor - There is one woman that has fucked more people over than Sandra "star titties" Stammova, and her name was.................... HELEN CLARK.

[koba]

There is no doubt that as a champion of hard work and enterprise Maggie would totally embrace the technologies this thread is about. And as one who doesnt suffer fools she would deride those who oppose progress. Its a real pity she cannot be cloned.


You really want her to have your babies dont you

Clones!
Did you not hear the man?
Babies are awfully working class.

[neil_cb125t]

After riding the 2010 S1000 std on a track, on slicks, it was very interesting to feel how the traction control effected the bike. With a rooted rear tire the back end just started stepping out so the TC would cut in, bring the bike into line and then give you power again, the waggle as you exit the corner motion was fun as shit.... but the tire did not like it and I do not think it helped me time wise it simply meant I could be a retard with the power with very little back-lash. Electronic suspenders thou...... man I see huge benifits, if only someone would pay for them for me...I don't even have cartridges in my forks!

[Mental Trousers]

.... if only someone would pay for them for me...I don't even have cartridges in my forks!

Farken Nel. Get some decent suspension in that thing and you'll own the F3 record at Taupo easy.

[eelracing]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?.

Is it here to stay?Who say's?...the buying public?blindly led by the nose at the best of times...or the factories.

Who benefits?The buying public?...no they will still wrap themselves round road signage but now at a greater rate of knots and still not know why.
Of course it benefits racers as it makes the less skilled more competitive,but eventually every fucker will be following each other,same lines,same brake points,same acceleration,same ol' samo.Because with electronics they only work one way and you have to ride the bike that way.

Had a great laugh at an article about Bradley Smith saying how easy his M1 is to ride compared to his moto2 bike (something fucked-up in itself just quietly)but all was made clear when he mentioned his team technician was out on the track earlier for four hours with a GPS logger calibrating the traction control.
Get rid of them and bring back raw as bikes and ultimately different riding styles,that'll sort the thoroughbreds from the donkeys.

MotoGP want's to decrease costs and increase grids,we all know electronics is the problem.So unless they are provided free of charge to all teams they are currently the ultimate racing buzzkill

[budda]

She is a tory, otherwise she wouldnt be allowed to live under the same roof.

now THAT I could believe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wharfy]

MotoGP want's to decrease costs and increase grids,we all know electronics is the problem.So unless they are provided free of charge to all teams they are currently the ultimate racing buzzkill

How do we know electronics is the problem ???

[JayRacer37]

Of course it benefits racers as it makes the less skilled more competitive,but eventually every fucker will be following each other,same lines,same brake points,same acceleration,same ol' samo.Because with electronics they only work one way and you have to ride the bike that way.

Sounds pretty much how it is now...

[Dave-]

I love them!

But I am a bright eye'd and busy tailed computer engineering student, so that's what I geek out on.

NASCAR is quite cool though, push rods, carbs, no aids, very interesting sport.

[Mental Trousers]

Interestingly, in Race 1 at the Hampton Downs round of the Nationals today the guys with the fewest electronic aids did the best in very tricky conditions. Nick Cole won with Hayden Fitzgerald close behind. All those with the most developed electronics finished mid pack.

Going on that result you'd think the electronics were more of a hinderance.

[scrivy]

As a spectator, I say get rid of them.
I mean, who cares if the winner breaks the lap record if the racing was processional, or he was way ahead of everyone else.

How many care about F1 cars now?? Its super quick, but really, how many overtaking opportunities are there?

Too many aides.

[Biggles08]

They are here to stay - but do they spoil the fun and make it less of a specatacle ?, Or do they simply refine going "fast" even further ?. Thats the question. Ime writing an article on the matter, - what are your thoughts ?

Didn't help Nick C out of turn 4 today...

[caspernz]

MotoGP want's to decrease costs and increase grids,we all know electronics is the problem.So unless they are provided free of charge to all teams they are currently the ultimate racing buzzkill

Regardless of my personal opinion that electronics will only increase on everyday bikes, the cost factor in racing is the real issue.

Look at how ABS/EBS/TC/ESP has crept into cars over the years, road bikes are lagging behind. That said, would you want a Busa or a ZX14 if you were buying brand new today? I'd have the Busa personally...;)

[quickbuck]

How many care about F1 cars now?? Its super quick, but really, how many overtaking opportunities are there?

Too many aides.
You obviously didn't watch the race then!
There was more overtaking at Melbourne than in the Sidecar Races today......

[CHOPPA]

Interestingly, in Race 1 at the Hampton Downs round of the Nationals today the guys with the fewest electronic aids did the best in very tricky conditions. Nick Cole won with Hayden Fitzgerald close behind. All those with the most developed electronics finished mid pack.

Going on that result you'd think the electronics were more of a hinderance.

Mine was turned off cause its shit in the wet and also my front tyre hadn't been calibrated. Hayden, robbie, Craig, Moir all run the same system and the Kawasaki would be the pick of the bunch for electronics and he won.

Electronics make f/a difference, we are the same guys at the front as we were before electronics.

Its ignorant to think electronics make someone a better rider.

[CHOPPA]

Is it here to stay?Who say's?...the buying public?blindly led by the nose at the best of times...or the factories.

Who benefits?The buying public?...no they will still wrap themselves round road signage but now at a greater rate of knots and still not know why.
Of course it benefits racers as it makes the less skilled more competitive,but eventually every fucker will be following each other,same lines,same brake points,same acceleration,same ol' samo.Because with electronics they only work one way and you have to ride the bike that way.

Had a great laugh at an article about Bradley Smith saying how easy his M1 is to ride compared to his moto2 bike (something fucked-up in itself just quietly)but all was made clear when he mentioned his team technician was out on the track earlier for four hours with a GPS logger calibrating the traction control.
Get rid of them and bring back raw as bikes and ultimately different riding styles,that'll sort the thoroughbreds from the donkeys.

MotoGP want's to decrease costs and increase grids,we all know electronics is the problem.So unless they are provided free of charge to all teams they are currently the ultimate racing buzzkill

I take it you have never ridden a bike with tc abs anti wheely?

[Mental Trousers]

Mine was turned off cause its shit in the wet and also my front tyre hadn't been calibrated. Hayden, robbie, Craig, Moir all run the same system and the Kawasaki would be the pick of the bunch for electronics and he won.

Electronics make f/a difference, we are the same guys at the front as we were before electronics.

Its ignorant to think electronics make someone a better rider.

I thought Nick had his turned off (or turned right down) for today's track conditions.

The commentator was saying Hayden wasn't running any traction control etc. Guess he was wrong.

[Dave-]

Mine was turned off cause its shit in the wet and also my front tyre hadn't been calibrated. Hayden, robbie, Craig, Moir all run the same system and the Kawasaki would be the pick of the bunch for electronics and he won.


Why's it crap choppa? what needs calibrating? how's it done?

entirely out of interest.

[eelracing]

How do we know electronics is the problem ???

History.

The same reason Morini, Motoguzzi,Gilera and smaller factories Mondial and Ducati pulled out of GP's in 1957 and also Honda in the 60's.Technical reg's and budgets were getting blown out of proportion and no longer could racing be justified by these makers.
Sounds all to familiar doesn't it.
What did the then FIM do?Simplified the rules governing engine cylinders,CC rating and 6 speed gearbox's etc,to reign in costs and bring back more manufacturers.I'll admit it was helped by the rising tide of the Japanese industry at the time,and as we know led to some great racing in the 70's,80's and 90's.





I take it you have never ridden a bike with tc abs anti wheely?

You would be correct,but strictly for the personal reason that I am simply not interested.

[CHOPPA]

Why's it crap choppa? what needs calibrating? how's it done?

entirely out of interest.

Gotta put in the circumference of the Tyre so the ecu can calculate spin. I set the program for my slicks which are completely different to my wets

[scrivy]

From a riders perspective, yeah, have all the bells and whistles - then the person with the biggest chequebook will probably win..... a bit unfair for those strapped for cash in these hard times.

From a spectators perspective do away with them.
I still remember watching the F1 class years back, guys like Holden, Deans, Toomey, Williams all muscling around the pigs they rode, doing big power slides, and wheelies in the esses at Wangas...... Oh, such fun.....
Spectators don't know, or dont care if the lap records were broken, they just want to see action. Period. They want bang for their buck.

Who watches the winner of the classic sidecars way out in front by themselves? Rather watching the likes of Willy, Dennisons and Nev getting totally out of shape!
Why do people watch in awe as Jay Lawrence backs it in?? Why do spectators drool over motards doing their crazy shit? Cause they wanna see seat of the pants stuff.

Not taking anything away from the top riders, yes you still have to do your top level stuff with the gear on your bikes to shine at the front, but if everyone went back to wooden suspension, skinny tyres, drum brakes, I think you'd have more bums on seats...... and since it would be cheaper to buy and run, you'd probably have more bums on race bike seats too.... which would end up costing less for entries as the grids might just be fuller.


Or I could be wrong......

[rastus]

Mine was turned off cause its shit in the wet and also my front tyre hadn't been calibrated. Hayden, robbie, Craig, Moir all run the same system and the Kawasaki would be the pick of the bunch for electronics and he won.

Electronics make f/a difference, we are the same guys at the front as we were before electronics.

Its ignorant to think electronics make someone a better rider.



Nick very rarely uses traction control in the dry and not in the wet from what I have observed and he hit a moist patch in turn 4 and highsided.
Risked his own neck to get his bike out of the way so you and Hayden didn't hit it coming over the hill and prevented a red flag incident. He looks bloody sore and is limping badly but he rode his bike back after the race and helped pack up.

[CHOPPA]

[QUOTE=rastus;1130517665]



Im not sure what you point is?

[quickbuck]

Im not sure what you point is?
That Nick is an all round GC?

Yes, it was the grass! Looked amazing on my TV.

[Robert Taylor]

From a riders perspective, yeah, have all the bells and whistles - then the person with the biggest chequebook will probably win..... a bit unfair for those strapped for cash in these hard times.

From a spectators perspective do away with them.
I still remember watching the F1 class years back, guys like Holden, Deans, Toomey, Williams all muscling around the pigs they rode, doing big power slides, and wheelies in the esses at Wangas...... Oh, such fun.....
Spectators don't know, or dont care if the lap records were broken, they just want to see action. Period. They want bang for their buck.

Who watches the winner of the classic sidecars way out in front by themselves? Rather watching the likes of Willy, Dennisons and Nev getting totally out of shape!
Why do people watch in awe as Jay Lawrence backs it in?? Why do spectators drool over motards doing their crazy shit? Cause they wanna see seat of the pants stuff.

Not taking anything away from the top riders, yes you still have to do your top level stuff with the gear on your bikes to shine at the front, but if everyone went back to wooden suspension, skinny tyres, drum brakes, I think you'd have more bums on seats...... and since it would be cheaper to buy and run, you'd probably have more bums on race bike seats too.... which would end up costing less for entries as the grids might just be fuller.


Or I could be wrong......

And deprive all the technicians their fun. There are classes that subscribe to what you have rattled off, as there are classes that allow ( to a degree ) constant development. The team and the rider have done their job very well if the bike is fast and for want of a better expression'' boring.'' Jorge Lorenzo and bike are ''boring'' but he is a 2 time World champion. Theres a guy that turns up at Paeroa and wobbles around on a Harley, exciting maybe to some spectators but its technical nonsense
I think a lot of people are struggling with accepting electronics, its another way of doing things that were previously only done mechanically.
How many people have needlessly crashed Hyosung 250s and other 250s because they are just too ''flexible'', wind up like a spring and unload? How many ''heavy'' people are deprived an even-ing up of the playing field in these classes because they are not allowed to change to springing more suitable for them?
How many cavemen would design a three track vehicle with an odd number of wheels if given pen and paper?
Electronics are here to stay and continue to have increasing influence on our lives.

[sidecar bob]

From a technicians point of view, vehicles from the electronic age are far easier & more fun to work on than some old nail with points & a carburettor. I think we tend to forget what a bloody mission old shit was in general.

[Mental Trousers]

Fron a technicians point of view, vehicles from the electronic age are far easier & more fun to work on than some old nail with points & a carburettor. I think we tend to forget what a bloody mission old shit was in general.

My wife still tells everyone about the time she went out to the shed and the bike mechanic of 20 years was standing well back out of the way with his arms folded watching me fix the bike with a laptop.

So much easier for geeks to fix things now. Although you still have to undo things with tools.

But hey, my traction control is my right hand and outside foot.

[scrivy]

Electronics are here to stay and continue to have increasing influence on our lives.

Heh heh heh......... until there's a massive solar flare....... then we're fucked......:wacko:

[quickbuck]

Heh heh heh......... until there's a massive solar flare....... then we're fucked......:wacko:

Yup... There will be no more KB :(

[wharfy]

History.

The same reason Morini, Motoguzzi,Gilera and smaller factories Mondial and Ducati pulled out of GP's in 1957 and also Honda in the 60's.Technical reg's and budgets were getting blown out of proportion and no longer could racing be justified by these makers.
Sounds all to familiar doesn't it.
What did the then FIM do?Simplified the rules governing engine cylinders,CC rating and 6 speed gearbox's etc,to reign in costs and bring back more manufacturers.I'll admit it was helped by the rising tide of the Japanese industry at the time,and as we know led to some great racing in the 70's,80's and 90's.






You would be correct,but strictly for the personal reason that I am simply not interested.

Ummm... still not sure you can blame electronics for it. Is it more expensive to develop software or chassis/engine/gearbox ?
Tyres all done by Bridgstone, suspenders pretty much all done by RT's Viking mates ?
My understanding is the stuff inside the engines and gearboxes is so trick that teams are not allowed open them, they all have to go back to the factory race department if there are any problems and they can use (6 ?) engines for the series, how much do you reckon a MotoGP engine costs to build ?
We are of course all familiar with the problems Ducati had trying to get a chassis that worked (that should get some discussion going :))

Mental Trousers can probably give us an idea about the cost of ECU development - I don't think there is a shortage of computer geeks (especially in Japan !) to do that stuff. I imagine (hope) that a lot of testing is done - terms like "crash" and "blue screen of death" take on a much more literal meaning if your computer fucks up at 275 kmh !!!

As I said, I'm not convinced that the electronics is what is driving the cost of MotoGP up. If you have some info to support that theory I'd be keen to see it.

[merv]

I'm OK with electronics coz I just like seeing bikes go fast and some of the dicing even in MotoGP was pretty good.

I'm old enough to have seen Geoff Perry race and no electronics in sight he would win races by a country mile. Then through the decades in NZ there were other notable riders like Dave Hiscock and then Robert Holden. Those guys quite often got a break and cleared off into the distance.

Same in 500GP, think of Hailwood, Agostini, Roberts, Spencer, Doohan. The cream always rises to the top and, no matter what, those guys could easily annihilate the opposition on a good day. The racing wasn't always close and it has little to do with electronics. The best riders would win and it is the same now. MM is scraping his elbows for chrissake and that is putting on a show.

The big thing is flow on into design for safer or better street bikes too. That has to be good.

Surely the real issue around cost of MotoGP is to do with just how professional it has got - the riders pay, the cost of motorhomes and hospitality, the skimming off the top by the owners of the rights (Dorna), the cost of track hire, TV and video rights etc, everyone wants their cut now. Look at fricken Ecclestone in F1 he's a billionaire off the back of guys taking a risk at their "sport". This is no different than rugby is now and many sports.

We live in the world of entertainment and not so many people are needed for labouring jobs and sport has become a job and like many service industries is filling a gap in the labour pool and a place for us to spend money.

That's progress folks and I think its pointless trying to fight it but it depends at what level - at prototype level I think you need the development so I'm happy with it in MotoGP. In lesser classes yeah sure go for lower levels of development. Doesn't matter the human race will race anything as long as they are in fair classes e.g. Vespa against Vespa not Vespa against RC213V else it would be like Conner's catamaran vs NZ1.

[scrivy]

The only trouble with technology is the amount that teams with big money spend on it as opposed to those without. Look at F1, how many teams had wind tunnels years ago?? Now don't they all?? How can a new team ever find their way into the sport if the don't have the coin to buy the latest technology? And by latest technology, I mean electronics - as that's what is winning races now....

[Robert Taylor]

The only trouble with technology is the amount that teams with big money spend on it as opposed to those without. Look at F1, how many teams had wind tunnels years ago?? Now don't they all?? How can a new team ever find their way into the sport if the don't have the coin to buy the latest technology? And by latest technology, I mean electronics - as that's what is winning races now....

Thats why there are lower cost formulae for those that cannot afford it. F1 looks pretty healthy anyway so why dumb it down? The technology spinoff is useful further down the track.
BTW Team Lotus Renault have purchased suspension units and the contracted services of a suspension engineer from Ohlins for this season. Worked pretty well for Kimi this past weekend....
Ohlins wanted to place a small sticker on the car but the asking price for that real estate was 1 million Euros, they withdrew the request.

[merv]

Ohlins wanted to place a small sticker on the car but the asking price for that real estate was 1 million Euros, they withdrew the request.

Yeah well, from the land of Ohlins:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ETxmCCsMoD0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

[quickbuck]

Ohlins wanted to place a small sticker on the car but the asking price for that real estate was 1 million Euros, they withdrew the request.

Yup, that is about right.
I remember Aaron Slight mentioning the Budget of the Castrol Honda Super Bike team when he was on the RC45.
At the same time Castrol put their sticker on the cars of one of the top teams at the time, and it cost MORE by about $2 Million!

[codgyoleracer]

Article is out now in this months Bike Rider Magazine, and they are asking for opinions on the matter. Drop them a line with your thoughts !
www.brm.co.nz

[Robert Taylor]

Article is out now in this months Bike Rider Magazine, and they are asking for opinions on the matter. Drop them a line with your thoughts !
www.brm.co.nz

It will matter little what the opinions are. More and more electronics are appearing on production bikes and the cavemen that set the rules in many racing formulae around the world will have to accept a transition into the 21st century.

[p.dath]

It will matter little what the opinions are. More and more electronics are appearing on production bikes and the cavemen that set the rules in many racing formulae around the world will have to accept a transition into the 21st century.

Forget about the elctronics.

I must have bee living under a rock. When did Andrew Stroud retire? I was a bit shocked to read that.

[Mental Trousers]

It will matter little what the opinions are. More and more electronics are appearing on production bikes and the cavemen that set the rules in many racing formulae around the world will have to accept a transition into the 21st century.

Most of the large series in the world are looking to reduce costs and electronics certainly do not reduce anything except lap times.

[quickbuck]

Forget about the elctronics.

I must have bee living under a rock. When did Andrew Stroud retire? I was a bit shocked to read that.

Yup you have... It was about a month ago...
https://www.facebook.com/aaron.carr.505/posts/10151835393262445?comment_id=28414929&offset=0&total_comments=4#!/TeamStroud

[Dave-]

Most of the large series in the world are looking to reduce costs and electronics certainly do not reduce anything except lap times.

Which is interesting considering electronic components are getting cheaper, faster, stronger etc and the number of people who can do something with them is getting larger.

[steveyb]

Yeah, hah.
While electronic devices, software and technician costs are going down for regular consumers, it seems that for motorsport these same costs keep going up.
Go figure......

[mossy1200]

Then you buy a bike with all the tricks and the first thing you do is work out how to turn them off.:nono:

[Dave-]

Then you buy a bike with all the tricks and the first thing you do is work out how to turn them off.:nono:

Some electronic assists in consumer vehicles are never really "off"

[mossy1200]

Some electronic assists in consumer vehicles are never really "off"

Until you pay for a reflash. LOL

[slowpoke]

The physical electronics themselves aren't a big factor in the costs, it's the army of technicians and engineers who analyse,model, monitor, run simulations etc etc etc etc. The staff required to do this is huge, their expertise extreme, so the wage bill is "messiff", the cost of transporting/feeding/accommodating many of them as they globe trote around the world is ginormous, for what is effectively a niche sport that doesn't even make it on to mainstream television.

There's some argument for the trickle down to road bikes but some of it is just ridiculous: we're never going to see a bike adjusting it's fuelling or throttle response corner by corner via GPS co-ordinates and carefully measured contours and coefficient of friction measurements are we? But the cost to do so, and maximise the benefits, is enormous. Carbon brakes and pneumatic valves can be added to the "no practical application" list. And can anyone tell me off the top of their head they bought a 180hp sports bike because it's the most fuel efficient? You sad bastard.........

If they were serious about trickle down to road bikes why isn't ABS would be allowed? Why aren't catalytic converters compulsory? Along with ferrous brake rotors? Why aren't dB limits imposed? These things are becoming more and more important/contentious to governing bodies....and even racing bodies for that matter, so why aren't they important to the manufacturers?

[Robert Taylor]

The physical electronics themselves aren't a big factor in the costs, it's the army of technicians and engineers who analyse,model, monitor, run simulations etc etc etc etc. The staff required to do this is huge, their expertise extreme, so the wage bill is "messiff", the cost of transporting/feeding/accommodating many of them as they globe trote around the world is ginormous, for what is effectively a niche sport that doesn't even make it on to mainstream television.

There's some argument for the trickle down to road bikes but some of it is just ridiculous: we're never going to see a bike adjusting it's fuelling or throttle response corner by corner via GPS co-ordinates and carefully measured contours and coefficient of friction measurements are we? But the cost to do so, and maximise the benefits, is enormous. Carbon brakes and pneumatic valves can be added to the "no practical application" list. And can anyone tell me off the top of their head they bought a 180hp sports bike because it's the most fuel efficient? You sad bastard.........

If they were serious about trickle down to road bikes why isn't ABS would be allowed? Why aren't catalytic converters compulsory? Along with ferrous brake rotors? Why aren't dB limits imposed? These things are becoming more and more important/contentious to governing bodies....and even racing bodies for that matter, so why aren't they important to the manufacturers?

Energy recovery technology developed in Formula 1 car racing is already trickling down into passenger cars. If only a percentage of the technology makes it ''to the masses'' then its worth it. Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. Sure the ability of the sailors is still a huge factor but the technology is awe inspiring and its a huge spectacle. The boat that was supposed to be winning ( because the arrogant prick that owns it writes the biggest cheques ) is being embarrassed. That's also a testament to engineering ability and sheer hard work.

We are now selling upgrade suspension control units for Multistradas with the Ohlins electronic suspension. This turns the suspension action into active or automatic if you like. It self adjusts on the fly. The price is very affordable and there are lots of happy punters. Again, this is trickle down from the racing world.

[pritch]

Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. .

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Environmental hazards such as vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate. Not so much if, as when.

One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable either, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity.

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling - and anybody with a lisp.:whistle:

[RobGassit]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap!

I too had trouble with a black box and she was worth every penny!

[Dave-]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Environmental hazards such as vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate. Not so much if, as when.

One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable either, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity.

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling - and anybody with a lisp.:whistle:

Nah bullshit, they've put vibrations in some pretty wet places.

[Robert Taylor]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Exposure to vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate sooner rather than later
.
One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

And there speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity. :whistle:

Yes I do understand where you are coming from Pritch and largely Im from the same analogue age as you. But electronics are here to stay and there is a place for them. Bikes are a ''harsh'' application but so are military aircraft. Military spec componentry just has to be used.
The biggest issue that I see is that too many components go to the PCD department prior to committing to full scale production.
There are also too many middlemen ''clipping the ticket'' on the way through with such componentry, ballooning the end price somewhat.

[Drew]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

[slowpoke]

Energy recovery technology developed in Formula 1 car racing is already trickling down into passenger cars. If only a percentage of the technology makes it ''to the masses'' then its worth it. Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. Sure the ability of the sailors is still a huge factor but the technology is awe inspiring and its a huge spectacle. The boat that was supposed to be winning ( because the arrogant prick that owns it writes the biggest cheques ) is being embarrassed. That's also a testament to engineering ability and sheer hard work.


I dunno Robert, to me the America's cup is a very bad example: most competitors have been priced out of the game. It's new and exciting (compared to the old sluggers) at the moment but how long are people going to watch just 2 or 3 boats? The Kiwi boat is sponsored by us, the tax payer: it doesn't look like we will but if we lose that won't happen again. The Italians wouldn't go through it again, so who does that leave? There's virtually no TV coverage so the whole show is completely unsustainable when the billionaires get bored.

Parallels to MotoGP much? Suzuki and Kawasaki have been priced out of the market and Ducati won't be far behind if they have another disastrous season next year and get smoked by the customer Honda and Yamaha arrangements. The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

[Dave-]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

Could you not bias the ABS based on steering angle?

[Dave-]

The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

Ideally it shouldn't though, the tech should be the reason you're there. Ideally the teams should be prototyping new advancements to go on their production fleet.

I think rather than try reduce the costs of prototype racing, they should be trying to focus it more on production development by somehow forcing comapnies to follow through with the technology and putting it into a production vehicle. F1 has gone too far with tech taking a back seat to the health of the series with its latest tyre debacle.

I realise somehow is very open ended, but I'm still not dressed so refuse to give it too much through right now.

[Robert Taylor]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

Apologies for stating the obvious, why not first work on trying to improve traction levels through having more responsive suspension?

[Drew]

Apologies for stating the obvious, why not first work on trying to improve traction levels through having more responsive suspension?We're nearly at the stage of you and I working on that Dr, but it would still help.

Currently, the rear is border line under sprung. Which is good when you're dealing with something as inherently unstable as a chair anyway, and grip is the biggest factor no matter what you're doing.

Thinking about it though, traction control would be a bit of a drag exiting right hand turns. Since ya don't want it to push the front too hard.

Fuck it, too much thinking.

Email on the way actually, about the front end.

[Mental Trousers]

The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

Ideally it shouldn't though, the tech should be the reason you're there. Ideally the teams should be prototyping new advancements to go on their production fleet.

The technology is the reason prototype classes exist, but I don't think production based racing is the place to develop new technology.

[Robert Taylor]

The technology is the reason prototype classes exist, but I don't think production based racing is the place to develop new technology.

Sorry about that but I don't agree for one second! We developed something last year in NZ ''production racing'' ( which is largely what it is here, production based ) and passed the info on to the engineers at the Ohlins factory. It is now being used in a number of Moto 2 and second tier ( CRT ) MotoGP bikes. As Ohlins have the engineering capacity and some pretty sophisticated equipment it will be refined and developed further. From that same idea we have applied to a couple of roadbikes more recently, with excellent results.

Within the rules you keep developing, that's the nature of engineering. If there is a spin off for the average man in the street then that's a bonus

[Robert Taylor]

We're nearly at the stage of you and I working on that Dr, but it would still help.

Currently, the rear is border line under sprung. Which is good when you're dealing with something as inherently unstable as a chair anyway, and grip is the biggest factor no matter what you're doing.

Thinking about it though, traction control would be a bit of a drag exiting right hand turns. Since ya don't want it to push the front too hard.

Fuck it, too much thinking.

Email on the way actually, about the front end.

Plus you've got a wheel missing! No caveman if you gave him paper and pencil would design such a hideous piece of engineering.

[Robert Taylor]

I dunno Robert, to me the America's cup is a very bad example: most competitors have been priced out of the game. It's new and exciting (compared to the old sluggers) at the moment but how long are people going to watch just 2 or 3 boats? The Kiwi boat is sponsored by us, the tax payer: it doesn't look like we will but if we lose that won't happen again. The Italians wouldn't go through it again, so who does that leave? There's virtually no TV coverage so the whole show is completely unsustainable when the billionaires get bored.

Parallels to MotoGP much? Suzuki and Kawasaki have been priced out of the market and Ducati won't be far behind if they have another disastrous season next year and get smoked by the customer Honda and Yamaha arrangements. The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

Yes, some of what you say is plausible but there should always be formulae where engineering development is given a relatively free hand. To those of us with an engineering bent watching Formula 1 and Americas cup is much more than about the sheer racing spectacle itself. The technology behind it is fascinating. Right below such formulae there are the more cost controlled classes that people in numbers can subscribe to.

Now when we win the Americas cup lets think outside of the square, it doesn't have to go to Auckland.........

[mossy1200]

Yes, some of what you say is plausible but there should always be formulae where engineering development is given a relatively free hand. To those of us with an engineering bent watching Formula 1 and Americas cup is much more than about the sheer racing spectacle itself. The technology behind it is fascinating. Right below such formulae there are the more cost controlled classes that people in numbers can subscribe to.

Now when we win the Americas cup lets think outside of the square, it doesn't have to go to Auckland.........

Taupo? Queenstown? Trailer sailor series would be the shizz.

Robert can you message me steering damper cost zx14r (brocks mount, ohlins damper or if ohlins has mount).

[Robert Taylor]

Taupo? Queenstown? Trailer sailor series would be the shizz.

Robert can you message me steering damper cost zx14r (brocks mount, ohlins damper or if ohlins has mount).

Dunedin?

Regretably Ohlins do not do a steering damper kit for the ZX14, sorry.

[Mental Trousers]

Sorry about that but I don't agree for one second! We developed something last year in NZ ''production racing'' ( which is largely what it is here, production based ) and passed the info on to the engineers at the Ohlins factory. It is now being used in a number of Moto 2 and second tier ( CRT ) MotoGP bikes. As Ohlins have the engineering capacity and some pretty sophisticated equipment it will be refined and developed further. From that same idea we have applied to a couple of roadbikes more recently, with excellent results.

Within the rules you keep developing, that's the nature of engineering. If there is a spin off for the average man in the street then that's a bonus

There isn't anywhere else to develop stuff in this country is the problem. It's all production based except for the 125GP/Moto3 type bikes so we don't have much choice.

Besides, you fiddling with existing equipment and refining things with new tweaks or different components isn't developing new gear.


Yes, some of what you say is plausible but there should always be formulae where engineering development is given a relatively free hand. To those of us with an engineering bent watching Formula 1 and Americas cup is much more than about the sheer racing spectacle itself. The technology behind it is fascinating. Right below such formulae there are the more cost controlled classes that people in numbers can subscribe to.

Now when we win the Americas cup lets think outside of the square, it doesn't have to go to Auckland.........

I've always liked the America's Cup once they got on the water. Off the water it's bullshit, but on the water it's all technology, sailing skill and tactics, like it should be.

[pritch]

Apropos of nothing in particular, I note that both Rossi and Marquez have stated this weekend that they would like less electronics in MotoGP.

[Dave-]

There isn't anywhere else to develop stuff in this country is the problem. It's all production based except for the 125GP/Moto3 type bikes so we don't have much choice.

Besides, you fiddling with existing equipment and refining things with new tweaks or different components isn't developing new gear.

What RT achieved is called incremental innovation. It even boarders on platform innovation. RT never said he developed any new equipment.

Pissing and moaning about the lack of development in this country sure as shit isn't developing any new gear either.

[Mental Trousers]

The technology is the reason prototype classes exist, but I don't think production based racing is the place to develop new technology.

Sorry about that but I don't agree for one second!



What RT achieved is called incremental innovation. It even boarders on platform innovation. RT never said he developed any new equipment.

Seems you misread things.

[Robert Taylor]

What we developed wasn't new, it was taken from the auto racing side and used exclusively in that code for a slightly different reason. We saw the potential for bike racing but also very much so for on road use. The factory concur that it has merit, but like so many things it will be an accountants decision whether it makes it to production or not.

WSBK race 1 at Istanbul ( just run ) Race winner Eugene Laverty praised the electronics on the Aprliia..............

[JayRacer37]

We developed something last year in NZ ''production racing'' ( which is largely what it is here, production based ) and passed the info on to the engineers at the Ohlins factory. It is now being used in a number of Moto 2 and second tier ( CRT ) MotoGP bikes. As Ohlins have the engineering capacity and some pretty sophisticated equipment it will be refined and developed further. From that same idea we have applied to a couple of roadbikes more recently, with excellent results.

What was it?


Now when we win the Americas cup lets think outside of the square, it doesn't have to go to Auckland.........


Taupo? Queenstown? Trailer sailor series would be the shizz.


Yes, Trailer boats on lake Hamilton

[Robert Taylor]

What was it?


Call me at some stage Jay and I will happily elaborate because I know you are a totally sincere person. Here in NZ there is a mentally unstable confidence trickster ( who also conned your employers ) who distributes for a company that got its start on industrial espionage they did on my preferred suspension supplier. These collective thieves don't need any more help .