Counterleaning in slow speed maneuvers

[Grashopper]

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.

So, I stumbled across these articles about police motorcycle training which are quite an interesting read:
http://stevelarsen.net/pdfs/PHX%20Police%20Series/OfcTrainingPart1.pdf

But on page 3 when he describes what they did on Day 3 of the training course he is saying that counterleaning is a bad habit and I'm pretty sure he is still talking about slow speed maneuvering.:scratch:

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[bogan]

The most tech reason is that counter-leaning will use the steering rake to decrease the turning radius. The other part of it is about controllability, which is going to change from person to person or bike to bike, I've always found you get more control being on top though...

[Banditbandit]

Yeah .. I couldn't open the linked file .. but counter-leaning does work .. even at high speed .. you just lean out instead of leaning in ..

At low speed it means that the bike is leant over and turning faster ... because
The most tech reason is that counter-leaning will use the steering rake to decrease the turning radius. I'm not that technical .. I just use it ..

A centre line drawn through the weight of the bike plus the rider is more upright ... same at high speed .. but much harder and more dangerous at high speed ...

Try it .. it works .. (at low speed at least try it ...)

[Grashopper]

I know that it works. I've been using it to get smoother, more controlled u-turns (ok, I have to admit it's a work in progress...:) ). But if they are saying that it is a "bad habit" then I'm thinking maybe I'm doing something wrong, or at least could improve my technique by not doing it and do something different instead, whatever that may be.

[Maha]

I know that it works. I've been using it to get smoother, more controlled u-turns (ok, I have to admit it's a work in progress...:) ). But if they are saying that it is a "bad habit" then I'm thinking maybe I'm doing something wrong, or at least could improve my technique by not doing it and do something different instead, whatever that may be.

If the technique works for you, then use it...
There will always be those for and those against any skill based method, proven or otherwise.

[bluninja]

Leaning away from your bike is a great way to get rid of chicken strips without going too fast :) I think on roads the reason for not leaning the opposite way to your bike is that your bike leans further for a given speed and can run out of tyre edge. As for not doing it at speed...have you seen speedway riders hanging off the inside of thier bikes with knee down?

[nerrrd]

Pretty sure this technique was recommended for doing tight radius slow speed turns on the courses I've done, so can't be all "bad".

[Grashopper]

As for not doing it at speed...have you seen speedway riders hanging off the inside of thier bikes with knee down?

Hm no, I had to google it. But it looks like they still lean in the same direction than the bike, don't they? (while they break all laws of physics :D)

[Akzle]

i always used to do this. being a farm ladd. i was told off for doing it on a sportsbike and "trying to drift it"

i believe the advice i got on here (a fucking rarity eh?) for high speed/normal road riding was that your body should not to the outside of the bike's centreline...

having seen many lulz high-sides, i can see teh logic.

that said, i probably have so many bad habits it's just not worth worrying about.

Sent while picking my nose. with my little toe.

[Ocean1]

There's a speed under which bikes handle differently. Higher speeds at which normal counter-steering produces obvious and appropriate steering reactions, lower speeds where if you try a healthy counter-steer input the bike seems to actually go in the direction you turned the bars. That speed is not the same for every bike, but generally if you can comfortably take your hands off the bars and maintain stability then you're in counter-steering country. If you're below a brisk walk you're almost certainly into "steer where you want to go" territory.

On a road bike, on the road, at counter-steer speed it’s good to either stay in line with the bike or drop your inside shoulder a tad. At a walk, leaning the bike further into the turn and leaning the body out a bit to compensate works better, tightens the turn radius up. I’ve found it helps to initially keep the shoulders parallel to the bars as you lower the bike towards the inside and then turn the bars into the turn. Seems to help establish the new balance relationship before you start having to worry about turning. The same rule applies for the head, look back in the direction you want to go before you turn. As always the best way to learn these techniques is on a field, trying to turn inside a couple of markers. I often actually stand up to manage tight U turns, but that’s just previous practice for an entirely different type of riding interfering.

[FJRider]

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.



As far as U-turns go ... if it feels good/right ... do it. The principals of staying upright (so to speak) on a bike vary so much ... in each maneuver/road condition/situation that a motorcyclist finds themselves in. If you need to think about what you are doing ... often as not you'll get it/do it ... wrong ...

Don't over think it. (a bit like counter steering) ... JUST DO IT ...

[GrayWolf]

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.

So, I stumbled across these articles about police motorcycle training which are quite an interesting read:
http://stevelarsen.net/pdfs/PHX%20Police%20Series/OfcTrainingPart1.pdf

But on page 3 when he describes what they did on Day 3 of the training course he is saying that counterleaning is a bad habit and I'm pretty sure he is still talking about slow speed maneuvering.:scratch:

Can anyone shed some light on this?

it's not taught on track days, so it cant be any good. ONLY TRACK DAYS can teach you how to handle your bike, throw away ANYTHING else that isnt 'track teaching' related. The UK Police Roadcraft manuals are shit, all the Rossi clones in KB will most assuredly inform you of this. You ONLY need to learn how to control, lean, steer you bike at 100kph+ speeds using lines taught in a 'safe' racetrack environment, road position, threat vectoring, smooth lines are all a crock of shit.... This is KB, they always know better!!
:shake::jerry::jerry:

[Grashopper]

:jerry::jerry:

Who is Jerry and why is he not replying to my thread? :lol:


it's not taught on track days, so it cant be any good. ONLY TRACK DAYS can teach you how to handle your bike, throw away ANYTHING else that isnt 'track teaching' related. The UK Police Roadcraft manuals are shit, all the Rossi clones in KB will most assuredly inform you of this. You ONLY need to learn how to control, lean, steer you bike at 100kph+ speeds using lines taught in a 'safe' racetrack environment, road position, threat vectoring, smooth lines are all a crock of shit.... This is KB, they always know better!!

Duh, why do you think I ask that question here? :p
Oh no, I will never learn cornering then: The GN doesn't go much 100+. And Lines? Vectors? But, but I was never good at maths. :cry:

[Marmoot]

Yeah .. I couldn't open the linked file .. but counter-leaning does work .. even at high speed .. you just lean out instead of leaning in ..

Don't......the bike will lean more than it needs to and sooner or later you'd run out of the precious contact patch you need to stay alive as the bike rides on the tyres' shoulders. Particularly when you suddenly realise the bend is tighter than you think, as you try to lean the bike more to compensate. At high speed cornering the tyres are already struggling as they are. Don't add to their problems.

[arcane12]

I've always found you get more control being on top though...

Yeah, but I like to take turns...

[bogan]

A centre line drawn through the weight of the bike plus the rider is more upright ...


I'm not that technical ..

Clearly...

[arcane12]

I'll chime in on the 'yes it's ok/good at slow speeds'. It will allow you to turn the bike quicker/easier at slow speeds, though it means you need to man(woman)handle the bike a bit more to go from turning one way to the other. The main thing is in your title - 'Slow speed maneuvers'. As soon as you are doing more than navigating a carpark, avoiding speed bumbs, doing a u-turn then back to leaning it is.

Interestingly during my BHST I was using it for the swerving cones bit, but the instructor didn't mention it to the other riders who were struggling with that section. I didn't think to mention it as I was that new to riding I didn't think anyone would _not_ be doing it. That was before I knew what coutner-steering was, or any other bit of jargon.

[Grashopper]

I've always found you get more control being on top though...


Yeah, but I like to take turns...

:killingme arcane, you've been here too long

[KoroJ]

At slow speed, the more one leans the bike, the tighter they can turn (it's all to do with mechanics and reducing the turn radius I think there might be something about it in one of David Hough's books??)

If you increase the lean at slow speed, there is no centrifugal force to push the bike out (or hold it up) so it will get to a point where it will fall over.

Shifting your weight to the outside, shifts the C of G closer to the contact point of the wheels and maintains balance at a greater lean angle.

Counter leaning at high speeds can be done.....but it will limit the speed of the bike because the point of leaning in at high speed is to minimise the lean angle of the bike to maximise traction at the given speed.

It's all elementary my dear Grashopper!!

[arcane12]

And then you could get into the forces that are acting on the bike at high speeds that limit the grip in a turn.

In laymans terms at higher speeds the bike wants to keep going straight rather than turn so you 'use' more of your grip to turn the bike through a corner than at a lower speed. Also things like acceleration and braking can 'use up' grip. Hence "brake on the straight before it's too late".

[ducatilover]

there is no centrifugal force

That's because centrifugal force does not exist.


Sent from high school where this was learned.

[Glowerss]

I'm surprised it's gone 2 pages with nobody mentioning gymkhana :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzUcgGs8Vqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvFpGHarOO0&feature=player_embedded

Counter leaning doesn't seem to have had any adverse affects on those chaps :clap:

TBH for low speed stuff (sub 20kph) I wouldn't stress too much. Whatever works for you! At that sort of speed so long as you're not falling off I can't see it mattering much one way or another:rolleyes:

[bogan]

I'm surprised it's gone 2 pages with nobody mentioning gymkhana :D

There was a good reason for that you arsehole, now how are we supposed to get any work done...

this guy even seems to be leaning pretty much neutral, definetley looking where he wants to go instead where he aiming though!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULhdPMDJ4Q

[Tigadee]

Jebus! Do they even get out of 1st gear? :baby:

[Ocean1]

this guy even seems to be leaning pretty much neutral, definetley looking where he wants to go instead where he aiming though!

Will have to watch that again, some strange head movements going on there.

[Grashopper]

I'm always really impressed by the gymkhana riding. I've seen videos where they pulled that off in pouring rain. Just amazing. Think I need to practise that a bit more.

[Ocean1]

Will have to watch that again, some strange head movements going on there.

Seems to be common, watched several riders turn their heads towards an apex and keep facing that way until they reach it, then there's a quick but definite head turn away outside the turn somewhere, and then immediately back to the turn exit line. Wonder if it's some sort of forced disconnect between entry focus and exit focus...

[Tigadee]

They should get Rossi to try it out, like he did Isle of Man... :blip:

[george formby]

I'm always really impressed by the gymkhana riding. I've seen videos where they pulled that off in pouring rain. Just amazing. Think I need to practise that a bit more.

Me & the G/F have been practicing for awhile now. Awesome way to improve control & balance skills.

We counter lean to do full lock, full lean turns, 180's & 360's. At slow speed the bike just falls over unless you counter balance it. As you get better & more importantly faster it's less dramatic, I guess because the time off the throttle is less, you chuck it down on the brakes, handlebars at full lock & then pick it up on the throttle.
My G/F was quite static on her bike so I got her to practice leaning out, it's a very important off road skill too, her turns became tighter & faster.
Not that you should be worried about speed to start with.
Co-ordinating throttle, clutch & both brakes smoothly is the most important thing to learn, then you can start to tighten the lock & increase lean angle.

THIS (http://youtu.be/KdOmZE8CXxc) is my favourite exercise for slow speed counter leaning practice, figure 8's through a 1m gate.

[pritch]

I often actually stand up to manage tight U turns, but that’s just previous practice for an entirely different type of riding interfering.

My reading suggests that is the correct technique for very tight turns. Years ago one of the Brit magazines had a competition as to which of their roadtest riders could do the smallest circle, the winner was the former trials rider standing on the pegs.

[Ocean1]

My reading suggests that is the correct technique for very tight turns. Years ago one of the Brit magazines had a competition as to which of their roadtest riders could do the smallest circle, the winner was the former trials rider standing on the pegs.

I must have significant masochistic leanings, I've been involved in a lot of passtimes that require a fairly high degree of ballance skills, and my ballance is shit. Some of that's damage, but even before that I can't say I was ever a prodogy in surfing, skiing, trials etc.

But yes, tightest possible wheels down turn is on full lock with the bike all but grounding. Nobody does that, though, not since Sammy Millers' day have trials riders limited themselves to keeping the wheels on the ground.

And then, of course all modern bikes make use of the latest antigravity systems.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qfq0TWX_50w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pritch]

I must have significant masochistic leanings, I've been involved in a lot of passtimes that require a fairly high degree of ballance skills, and my ballance is shit.

I hear you. Not for nothing was my kayak known as "the yellow submarine". ;)

[sinfull]

These guys seem to pull it off quite well
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=374826972610610