Pro Rider training

[raftn]

Here is a copy of my blog i have just psoted on my website, I think it is relevant to those considering training.

On Sunday I attended the Pro Rider training course in Albany. This course is run by Pro rider who is the designated provider of subsidized training here in Auckland. This is done through ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) and Auckland Transport. The cost to me personally was $50 with the remaining amount of $200 being subsidised.

Although I have done a lot of training over the last few years and have become an Observer for IAM, I am always open to learn more and improve my skills.

I registered for the course a couple of weeks before the day and the returning email told me I would be sent an email out the week before confirming venue etc. I did end up chasing up the information and eventually got it five days before. I was surprised to see that even though I put done my level as "Experienced"..this course catered to all levels. I really wondered how they were going to manage this.

When I arrived on Sunday I was again surprised to see just 4 instructors for 16 riders. I had expected a better ratio of instructors to riders .

The debrief consisted of a brief discussion on shoulder checks and road rules, before we were shown pictures of where to position our bike on corners. There was no mention of the widely accepted I.P.S.G.A system of motorcycle roadcraft and control (Information, Position, Speed, Gear and Acceleration). This surprised me as it is one of the fundamentals of road-craft training. TUG was only briefly mentioned. (TUG is Take (information), Use (information), Give (information).

The five learners went off by themselves with another instructor and someone else to assist who had no qualifications to be teaching. (I know the person and skill level) This now left three instructors and 11 riders.

We initially rode out west where we would complete several circuits of the same road during the course of the day. My previous doubts as to the level and skill of the instructors began to be raised when I witnessed one of them continually fail to indicate through three roundabouts then ride through roadworks with a designated 30 km/hr speed limit at 70 km/hr . I questioned him and he said that he was doing 50 kms per hour...moot point really. Speed signs at road works are there for a reason.... didn't appreciate my bike getting showered with new gravel either.

I was beginning to get the impression that the level of training I have been getting and was expecting was not going to happen today. In fact, it appeared that the more numbers that were being pushed through the better, with no real consideration of the training quality provided. Important topics were ignored or simple brushed over.Braking was covered with a three minute video at lunch as well as counter steering. No demonstration was given.

The day dragged on with very little feed back to riders. Roadside debriefs consisted of short videos and more pictures to look at. It was one thing to talk about stuff, it is another thing to be taught it, showed it, and given time to put it into practise.

I was further alarmed when being overtaken buy a guy on a 250cc motorbike through the same 30 km/hr work zone I have just mentioned, showering my bike with stones and showing a blatant disregard for other road users. To rub salt in to the wound, none of the instructors mentioned it to him or confronted him about it.

Further frustration arose when I saw that the Pro rider leader was riding a bike that was not registered to be on the road. I was informed that it was, but again it is a moot point. The bike as it stood is illegal for not displaying a current registration and should not be ridden on the road until it does. This all coming from some one who is supposed to be setting an example and teaching safer road craft.

I was certainly getting frustrated at the amount of stuff that was not getting taught, or simply glossed over. And this is because the ratio of instructors to riders is too low and no proper training was ever going to happen. The majority of the day was spent practicing on the same piece of road going around corners. As the day drew to a close, I was disheartened to see three riders in front of me run compulsory stops signs. Again I think it reflects on a lack of proper instruction and a glossing over of the road rules at the beginning of the day. How after 5 1/2 hours of so called training are riders still running stop signs....something seriously is lacking in the approach taken to this training.

By three o'clock I still had yet to receive any feedback on my riding, when I questioned this, I was told I was smooth but probably travelling too close to the centre line on left hand bends. I did mention that I get excellent visibility through the corner from there, and always give up the position for safety .....oh good he says. End of conversation.

At the end of the ride I was given a certificate of completion, a smiley sticker on my dashboard to remind to to smile, relax and enjoy the ride, and a photocopied picture of the vanishing point.....the first time it was mentioned during the whole day. How the hell do you teach cornering with no emphasis on the vanishing point? I was also given a book on other reading material and encouraged to check out You Tube videos.

My honest opinion is that the level of training was poor, too many riders, unskilled instructors, not enough attention given to individual riders, all the time making a lot of money....taxpayer funded money. To properly teach, demonstrate and assess someone's riding, one-on-one, or one-on-two coaching is the maximum you should expect. The old adage "People don't know what they don't know"..certainly rings true with me today.

I make no apologies for the bluntness of this blog, I have stood beside too many graves of dead bikers to stand by and see sub-standard training become the norm Regular readers will know that I am unashamedly passionate about motorcycle safety. Who is auditing these trainers, who is checking that what is being taught is of a high standard? Who is checking that tax money and ACC levies is being spent wisely?

ACC and Auckland Transport seriously need to assess where they are going with motorcycle training which measurably delivers value and high quality outcomes. It makes me thankful of the training path which I embarked upon nearly 2 years ago.

[Maha]

Well said Roger, if that is how it was, then the instructor/s really need to listen to the feedback they receive (good or bad) and work with it.

Alot of criticism there and this bit is of particular concern ''Pro rider leader was riding a bike that was not registered to be on the road''

[GTRMAN]

Doesn't bode well for Prorider. Perhaps take up your concerns with the owner.

[nzspokes]

16 riders? WTF thats $4000 they made. Epic. :facepalm:

[Madness]

16 riders? WTF thats $4000 they made. Epic. :facepalm:

You really have no idea what's involved in running a business do you? :facepalm:

[bosslady]

I presume you shared your concerns with them before posting your blog, if not one questions what it is you are trying to achieve. In any case, this is in complete contrast to my novice $20 course. Instructor growled at someone for not stopping at a stop sign, was anal about checking mirrors, indicating etc. We also stopped twice on approach to a corner so he could demonstrate vanishing points. 4 ppl, one instructor. We all got good (and constructive...) feedback. In the weeks leading up to the course I had begun to grow fearful riding on my bike but after the course I had some confidence again and was feeling good. I'm sorry you had a less than satisfactory experience and although I know as a newbie what I say would be taken with a grain of salt, my experience with Chris the instructor south of Auckland, was top notch.

[raftn]

I presume you shared your concerns with them before posting your blog, if not one questions what it is you are trying to achieve. In any case, this is in complete contrast to my novice $20 course. Instructor growled at someone for not stopping at a stop sign, was anal about checking mirrors, indicating etc. We also stopped twice on approach to a corner so he could demonstrate vanishing points. 4 ppl, one instructor. We all got good (and constructive...) feedback. In the weeks leading up to the course I had begun to grow fearful riding on my bike but after the course I had some confidence again and was feeling good. I'm sorry you had a less than satisfactory experience and although I know as a newbie what I say would be taken with a grain of salt, my experience with Chris the instructor south of Auckland, was top notch.

I was asked for rider feed back per there email and have sent them a copy of this blog.

Many of the points I have mentioned were taken up with the instructors on the day. Including the excessive speed and illegal bike.

Clearly your training was at a higher level than what i recieved. A per my blog, there was no instruction or demonstration of the vanishing point. Basic indication and shoulder checks were brushed over.

I have no personal issues with any one at prorider. But i make no apoligies for forming strong views on motorcycle safety.

[starbug]

I was asked for rider feed back per there email and have sent them a copy of this blog.

Many of the points I have mentioned were taken up with the instructors on the day. Including the excessive speed and illegal bike.

Clearly your training was at a higher level than what i recieved. A per my blog, there was no instruction or demonstration of the vanishing point. Basic indication and shoulder checks were brushed over.

I have no personal issues with any one at prorider. But i make no apoligies for forming strong views on motorcycle safety.


Illegal bike? please do tell? bald tyres?

i want to do one of these courses to see what they are like, im an ex london Met Police rider and i dont expect super advanced stuff for $50 or even $200 but if they are helping the majority of people then i can only be a good thing? But alas, im in the wrong region.....again.:bash:

[Tryhard]

Very disappointing to here raftn. I was keen to do one of these courses by prorider as Im keen to learn and even recommended to a mate that has just been riding for 18 months as I thought it would be beneficial. That sux I hope they review their practises

[nerrrd]

Did the same course on South Auckland on Saturday, here's my 2 cents.

Numbers were about the same, there were 9 in the group I was in with one instructor and one assistant instructor. Same format, a theory session followed by a ride around a loop, then a stop for more theory /discussion (and lunch at one point), then repeated with different topics covered each time.

While on the rides the instructors took turns following each rider or having you follow them, then gave some feedback at the next stop. Roadworks were specifically included for experience riding on loose surfaces.

There were so many topics covered that I had to sit down and make notes when I got home, here are some of them in no particular order: braking, safety /stability / visibility, things to check on your bike, looking where you want to go, counter steering, positioning for corners, watching for the vanishing point, practicing.

So from my layman's perspective, I got a lot out of it. Ended up doing around 225 kms on the day including the trip down and back from central Auckland.

I'm in no position to evaluate either the course or the instructors from a professional standpoint, but I would still recommend it to others.

[bosslady]

Very disappointing to here raftn. I was keen to do one of these courses by prorider as Im keen to learn and even recommended to a mate that has just been riding for 18 months as I thought it would be beneficial. That sux I hope they review their practises

Dude, don't let one persons experience put you off! Do it yourself and decide, for yourself. Not saying the OP is wrong, I wasn't there but I had a good experience. It can't be all bad all of the time and it would be a pity for you to not take up this subsidised course.

[bosslady]

I also remember him growling (that's my nice way of saying sorta getting told off) for the 3 others crossing onto the wrong lane when turning into a side street. He also made mention of my "dancing" feet :woohoo: said I took too long to get my feet up after a stop (I put both down, even on a hill!) and surely my boots will be worn, looked, nope they weren't/aren't, nyah nyah nyah lol. Chris also brought his iPad with an app that showed different types of road scenarios I.e. roundabouts, multilane streets I.e. motorways etc. to help explain road positioning it was awesome wish I could remember what it was.

[nzspokes]

Dude, don't let one persons experience put you off! Do it yourself and decide, for yourself. Not saying the OP is wrong, I wasn't there but I had a good experience. It can't be all bad all of the time and it would be a pity for you to not take up this subsidised course.

This guy is a IAM trained observer. My guess is he knows what he is talking about and would pick up on a lot more than a new rider.

[bosslady]

This guy is a IAM trained observer. My guess is he knows what he is talking about and would pick up on a lot more than a new rider.

So what your saying is because of his experience from hereon no one should bother, they're better off doing nothing rather than going on this course? I'm sorry but bullocks, I make up my own mind, I don't let others do it for me.

[nzspokes]

So what your saying is because of his experience from hereon no one should bother, they're better off doing nothing rather than going on this course? I'm sorry but bullocks, I make up my own mind, I don't let others do it for me.

No what Im saying is that this particular course he went on had failures. So maybe they show a lack of consistency which you don't want in a training provider.

I have been through a few trainers. One was a IAM trained observer. He highlighted more issues in 3 hours than any other training put together. I would like to go through the IAM one day when I have the time to spare.

[Madness]

I have been through a few trainers.

Like a dose of the shits.

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

[bosslady]

No what Im saying is that this particular course he went on had failures. So maybe they show a lack of consistency which you don't want in a training provider.

I have been through a few trainers. One was a IAM trained observer. He highlighted more issues in 3 hours than any other training put together. I would like to go through the IAM one day when I have the time to spare.

Fair enough. But people keep going on about IAM and saying don't do this, don't do that, this isn't appropriate for a newbie etc. (I mean courses and shit) IAM aren't interested in doing anything with me until I've been riding quite a bit longer. Fair enough, and they were polite about it but someone like me has to find something to do or somewhere to go, IAM isn't for everybody? or at least not me, quite yet.. lol... Hopefully something good will come from the OPs feedback but IMO it shouldn't mean that people shouldn't bother with it, just saying...

[nzspokes]

Fair enough. But people keep going on about IAM and saying don't do this, don't do that, this isn't appropriate for a newbie etc. (I mean courses and shit) IAM aren't interested in doing anything with me until I've been riding quite a bit longer. Fair enough, and they were polite about it but someone like me has to find something to do or somewhere to go, IAM isn't for everybody? or at least not me, quite yet.. lol... Hopefully something good will come from the OPs feedback but IMO it shouldn't mean that people shouldn't bother with it, just saying...

Im not saying don't get training at what ever level. Just look for trainers with suitable qualifications for motorcycles.

[nerrrd]

I have been through a few trainers. One was a IAM trained observer. He highlighted more issues in 3 hours than any other training put together. I would like to go through the IAM one day when I have the time to spare.

I had a similar experience with Phil from Riderskills, brought up so many things I'd never thought of my brain hurt at the end of it. Ideally everyone would take the time and effort to do IAM training, but not everyone can afford to spend that time and effort (would there even be enough observers for that?)

This was a one day course, subsidised by Auckland Transport; it's never going to be a substitute for something as comprehensive as IAM. That's not to say it shouldn't be as good as it can be within those parameters, and constructive criticism is fair enough.

[bosslady]

Im not saying don't get training at what ever level. Just look for trainers with suitable qualifications for motorcycles.

Fair point.

[nzspokes]

I had a similar experience with Phil from Riderskills, brought up so many things I'd never thought of my brain hurt at the end of it. Ideally everyone would take the time and effort to do IAM training, but not everyone can afford to spend that time and effort (would there even be enough observers for that?)

This was a one day course, subsidised by Auckland Transport; it's never going to be a substitute for something as comprehensive as IAM. That's not to say it shouldn't be as good as it can be within those parameters, and constructive criticism is fair enough.

Agreed. I did mine with Phil. I think just the course with him would be a great starting point for most.

[Kev The Rev]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totalled five in all.

I am unable to comment on the content of the group riding that you participated in, as I simply was not privy to what transpired within that group, fact or fiction.
I did recognize you before you set off and spoke briefly with you. I also questioned why and to what possible purpose you were on your course or indeed if you had a hidden agenda, I only wish you had been allocated to my group, who knows you may have actually learnt something.

So I will let the other instructors take up your comments, either way, positive or negative the only outcome will be positive for all riders of all ages and all levels, without challenge we are nothing, we cannot proceed to higher levels.

I also say in print here, now that as yet I have discussed with no one the contents of your remarks, my letter is spontaneous, unsolicited and are strictly my views and my views alone, they do not necessarily reflect the official view of Prorider, period.

So I will reiterate, in plain simple English, I can only comment on my training day as you seem to have assumed to much without even having the decency to ask my students at the end of the day what they thought nor have the decency to ask me.

So let us analyze exactly what you have said and eliminate fiction from truth. Firstly you mention I had someone to assist, that part is correct with the emphasise on (assist) that persons sole role was to rear guard and support me, not to instruct.
You also make a cheap side swipe about the abilities of the person you say (I know the person and the skill level) I can only presume that you make that remark in the sense that that persons riding skills are sub standard or poor? I can assure you that the person in question can ride safer, smoother than many other people. That person has also been on many training modules including one of my own. Therefore, no Roger, you are wrong here.

Just for the for the record I am a fully qualified motorcycle instructor, car and class 2 truck New Zealand I endorsed certified instructor. I am also UK trained. I have also trained with UK Police motorcyclists, UK Police ride safe programme, German Police motorcyclists and Dutch police motorcyclists and taken part in training modules with our own superb Manakua police motorcyclists to set up new rider training modules to teach students (civilians). I am also an NZ NZTA course provider/examiner. I have also been assessed in unit standards 3466, 14511, 14521, 14523, 16646, 16647, 20179, 20180 for driver endorsement. I started and run Bayride motorcycling training and am currently running Moto City riding school in conjunction with Western bay training school. Just for the record, our pass rate for licence , all levels training and testing is nearly 100%. So with reference to your totally unqualified, un researched and dare I say it slanderous remarks about unqualified instructors I hope this will give (you the reader) some confidence. So Roger no, you are wrong here as well.

I have had the pleasure of riding all over the World in many disciplines since the age of 5, some 50 years ago. I am NOT an old dog who is unable to learn new tricks and to my many, many mates, students that know me would agree that I am absolutely passionate about Safety and training.

Your remarks with regards to feed back, being taught, time to put into practise, not enough time given to individual riders is a travesty of the truth. My group had an extensive pre ride discussion and all road protocol was discussed. Each machine was checked over (I am also a master technician) before they left the car park. All were of road legal standard.
I can assure you that each one of the students was mentored individually and constant feed back, up skilling progressed throughout the day in no less than over twenty-two stops with the specific purpose to speak with individuals to counter negative road practises and give constant assurance and praise where deserved.
The level of improvement in these riders by late afternoon was phenomenal. I would without hesitation ride any where and at any time with these guys and girls and it was an absolute privilege to ride home from Auckland to Tauranga that eve knowing that and yes I rode up in the early morning as well Roger, my time and no payment, just commitment.

On a personal point you have shown great dishonor to yours, mine and the readers fellow deceased riders be it from racing or road riding and quite frankly I find it disgraceful. One of my best mates was killed and he also wore with pride his IAM badge like you, (I do not have one , nor do I want one as I find the system a bit robotic and not enough individuality) but alas it didn't save him when he was taken out by a car at night coming down the wrong side of a motorway in Germany one cold wet and lonely wintry night. The police and medics that found him said it took him over two hours to die, alone in a ditch in ice cold water, so please don’t play that card with me. I know one thing Roger and that is if students learn just one thing from a training day then that’s a day well spent and just maybe it may save a life, eh.

So Roger you mention your few years training, but not where or who with, please think about putting to use your obvious skills, become a trainer and I will be the 1st one to sign up with you, any training is good, eh?

As for my statements, this is what I propose to do.

Roger I stand by my beliefs and to that end, I am personally going to contact the 5 students (I never met them before, nor do I know them now) and with Pro riders permission ask them to write a short letter on how they felt the training day went (positive or negative) with the permission of the students post the letters here on this web site so that (you readers and fellow bikers can be the judges)

Let’s see what the outcome will be and I bet a bottle of scotch that my words will stand tall and straight and remember all you readers :riding is everything, anything before or after is just waiting, ride safe all, Kev.

[Gremlin]

I think any training is better than a rider doing nothing, however, teaching the wrong thing (or misleading the students into thinking they are riding well, by not bringing up points) could be considered as dangerous as no training.

Training or upskilling is not something to be completed in one day. It's an ongoing commitment throughout your riding life. Go for a ride, get assessed, work on the items, more assessment and so on. The instruction has to be specifically tailored to each rider, as each one is different in their skill set and bad habits.

A newbie will be swamped with all the information that could be provided in a single day, whereas an experienced rider will pick up a couple of items to work on.

The basics is following all the road rules, which for many, is harder than you think. If these aren't being rigidly followed, then it's definitely a failing on the providers part. Of course, it's a human element, and you're not going to get the exact same outcome between every day from the same instructor, nor exact consistency amongst the instructors. Once you have a good base, you can build skills from there.

Different providers will follow different teaching methods and principles, even with a different focus. I've found it best to merge all those bits of advice into your overall riding, taking the best bits from each one.

IAM comes from the UK police rider training, and is mostly rigid. Not for everyone, I personally think it's the best for sealed road roadcraft, therefore, I'm in it.

[nzspokes]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totalled five in all.



What were the qualification's of the other trainers? Were they qualified motorcycle trainers?

It would seem there are very different views on what happened on the same day. When I did mine it was run as one on one, why is that not still the case?

Good on you for speaking up.

[Maha]

What were the qualification's of the other trainers? Were they qualified motorcycle trainers?



Yes some clarification on htis would good, Roger said there were 4 instructors (and surely there would be all instructors on a course of this nature?) yet Kev mentions one only.

[raftn]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totaled five in all. .


Thanks for you comments Kev, I was not on your course so can not offer an opinion on how it went, I can only base my opinion on the course I was on and the training that was provided. As you state you were not in attendance on this course.

Please note though you "assistant" must still be I indorsed if she is getting paid for her day. AS she is an employee of Pro rider I presume this was the case.

‘If you teach people how to drive on a road for financial or commercial gain, you must have a current driving instructor endorsement on your driver licence. This is called an I endorsement.’
'
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/factsheets/05/i-endorsements.html

Pro rider has asked for a feed back, I have forwarded a copy of this blog through to them yesterday.

[Edbear]

An interesting response from an obviously highly qualified and passionate instructor. As you say, Kev, you can only speak for yourself and we can only accept your word as to your level of training provided and have no reason to doubt you at all.

It would be good to have a response from the other instructors on Roger's ride as they too, no doubt, will have a different perspective. Your plan to ask the students to provide their feedback is good an something all training providers should commission regularly. Often the message we give out is received differently from the way we intended and people do tend to get things mixed up.

Great that you did come on here and provide your side of he story! Thanks for that and I hope many more riders take advantage of attending such courses as you run.

[ready2ride]

Everyones experiece with training can be completely different, and they will gain different things from it, each with their own mindset and views on things.

I want to back up prorider after such a direct report. I have personally attended 3 of the Prorider training days over the past 4 years on the track. Each and every time I have gained a huge amount out of the day and believe I am a safer rider as a result of what they have assisted me with and taught me. I have each time had a different instructor leading the group I was assigned to for the day. Each instructer specified they were certified motorcycle instructors. The theory was taught each time in a whole group, and then we would head out onto the track to put the theory into practice, isolating each skill each time we headed out. The trainers would follow us around and watch us how we handled our machines. We would then regroup off our bikes and recieve feedback as a group and individually from our instructor.

I found the instructors to be extrememly professional and experienced, with excellent feedback to each of us as to how we could handle our own bike a little better. As for the lead instructor not having a road legal bike... A very unjustified comment as their bike is not used on the road, it is a track bike only. The training in based on the track therefore the bike is suitable to demonstating us the skills in that environment. I found having the trianing on the track absolutely fanstastic. Not because I wanted to go fast, but because all of the usual hazards on the road had been eliminated, traffic lights, cars, a centre line, debre. Yes all very very important factors on the road that we must learn how to react to, but being on the track allows you to focus on your riding skills, how the bike feels, how YOU feel on the bike, in a safer environment to be able to do so.

We practiced emergency breaking with each break on its own to learn the limits of these brakes and exactly how effective they were. Then together in the right balance for the best possible breaking from your own bike in an emergency situation. I have used this skill a handful of times on the road and now know exactly what my breaks are capable of and how it feels when a wheel begins to lock up so that I can release it before it does and become dangerous.

Yes, the same level course 3 times. No I am not a muppet, just gained so much each time for the course that I felt it was in my best interest to go back again and refresh my skills, and assist them to become second nature as they are now becoming.

We had a speed limit of 100km for the day so it was not a day to go fast and see how you could ride the track. The track was treated as a single lane of the road, and we learnt where to place ourselves in corners in relation to the centre line for the best possible exit in our lane on the road with the best possible view of hazards through each corner.

I have done this on 3 different courses now and each time learnt MY bike and better ways to imporve my skills on each particular bike.

I am a more confident and safer rider because of these trainers at Prorider, who are porfessional and certified instructors.

I am sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with them. I have no boubt they will take on your feedback and asses how they can improve on certain things to cater for a larger range of riders. But from my experince I think the training I recieved was exceptional training and thank them solely for being the rider I am today who continues to go through training and improve on my skills.

Not the same for everyone, but just my feedback on ProRider from my own experiences.

[raftn]

Everyones experiece with training can be completely different, and they will gain different things from it, each with their own mindset and views on things.


I found the instructors to be extrememly professional and experienced, with excellent feedback to each of us as to how we could handle our own bike a little better. As for the lead instructor not having a road legal bike... A very unjustified comment as their bike is not used on the road, it is a track bike only. The training in based on the track therefore the bike is suitable to demonstating us the skills in that environment. I found having the trianing on the track absolutely fanstastic. Not because I wanted to go fast, but because all of the usual hazards on the road had been eliminated, traffic lights, cars, a centre line, debre. Yes all very very important factors on the road that we must learn how to react to, but being on the track allows you to focus on your riding skills, how the bike feels, how YOU feel on the bike, in a safer environment to be able to do so.

.

I appreciate-your comments, but this was Road based training, ALL training was completed on the road, A road legal bike is a requirement.

[ready2ride]

I appreciate-your comments, but this was Road based training, ALL training was completed on the road, A road legal bike is a requirement.

Thank you clarifying that. My apologies, when I had attended their training they were only providing their courses on the track. I had heard they were now also doing it on the road. Mine was also road based training, but on the safety of the track.

In your case I now understand that the bike should be questioned.

[Qkkid]

:yes: $249 per person from ACC 16 x249 = $3984 plus $50 x 16 = $800 grande total for the day $4784 sounds like $50 from each person who attends as well
16 riders? WTF thats $4000 they made. Epic. :facepalm:

[starbug]

:yes: $249 per person from ACC 16 x249 = $3984 plus $50 x 16 = $800 grande total for the day $4784 sounds like $50 from each person who attends as well

Good on them! ;)

[Tryhard]

Roger I stand by my beliefs and to that end, I am personally going to contact the 5 students (I never met them before, nor do I know them now) and with Pro riders permission ask them to write a short letter on how they felt the training day went (positive or negative) with the permission of the students post the letters here on this web site so that (you readers and fellow bikers can be the judges)

Let’s see what the outcome will be and I bet a bottle of scotch that my words will stand tall and straight and remember all you readers :riding is everything, anything before or after is just waiting, ride safe all, Kev.

Good idea- Im waiting..........

[Blackbird]

Good idea- Im waiting..........

Ummm... Weren't the 5 students that went with Kevin the ones who Raftn had no knowledge of, or am I wrong? Perhaps to get balance, we could also hear from the instructor with out of date rego, the instructor and student who speed through the road works and the students who failed to stop at a stop sign? Not trying to be smart, just to get an even perspective.

[Viking01]

Happened upon this thread the other evening, and have been interested in the various replies.

However, I'm struggling a little with the logic of Kevin's reply (i.e. that he would survey some
of the attendees, and see whether they enjoyed themselves and / or gained something useful
out of the course).

I thought Roger was primarily highlighting breaches of the Road Code (i.e. failing to stop; exceeding
signed speed; out of date rego displayed). I can't see how surveying some of the course attendees is
in any way relevant to the breaches listed immediately above.

Put it another way: If the instructor or one of the course attendees had been stopped by a
police officer because of one of the breaches, would the instructor's response have been "it's
OK, officer, it's not an issue, they were enjoying themselves". I think not.

I think I might have a little more respect for Kevin's reply if he had simply acknowledged shortcomings
on this occasion, agreed to do something about it, and then communicated back to Roger at a later
date what action had been taken in respect of the breaches.

[phill-k]

:yawn::corn::corn::corn::yawn:

[Disco Dan]

http://bite-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Yoda-Flame-war-begun.jpg

[Madness]

http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/tt3.jpg

[starbug]

Put it another way: If the instructor or one of the course attendees had been stopped by a
police officer because of one of the breaches, would the instructor's response have been "it's
OK, officer, it's not an issue, they were enjoying themselves". I think not.

I think I might have a little more respect for Kevin's reply if he had simply acknowledged shortcomings
on this occasion, agreed to do something about it, and then communicated back to Roger at a later
date what action had been taken in respect of the breaches.

Do you not think that when you ride your bike you make YOUR OWN decisions? i do! if my mate doesn't stop at a stop line i will not just follow him through, I make MY OWN decision.

A motorcycle instructor does not have the power to control your bike.

And if a student was to be stopped by the fuzz then he/she would be the only one in trouble.
So i believe your comments to be inaccurate Viking01. sorry.

i have done some digging through some mates in high places and it seems that Roger is connected with the IAM who were not successful in the tender for the ACC program.
Profesional jealousy?? I think that he has done some harm to their reputation. :facepalm:

[Tryhard]

Do you not think that when you ride your bike you make YOUR OWN decisions? i do! if my mate doesn't stop at a stop line i will not just follow him through, I make MY OWN decision.

A motorcycle instructor does not have the power to control your bike.

And if a student was to be stopped by the fuzz then he/she would be the only one in trouble.
So i believe your comments to be inaccurate Viking01. sorry.

i have done some digging through some mates in high places and it seems that Roger is connected with the IAM who were not successful in the tender for the ACC program.
Profesional jealousy?? I think that he has done some harm to their reputation. :facepalm:

So are you saying Roger is a :tugger:?

[nzspokes]

i have done some digging through some mates in high places and it seems that Roger is connected with the IAM

Did your mates in high places read the OPs first post in this thread to find this out. :facepalm:

[Maha]

Roger raised some relative points. Kev attempted a retort, but just oppossed eveything that was said by Roger...
The main points are listed below...for the money spent/received, this does not read that well to be honest

The debrief consisted of a brief discussion on shoulder checks and road rules, before we were shown pictures of where to position our bike on corners. There was no mention of the widely accepted I.P.S.G.A system of motorcycle roadcraft and control (Information, Position, Speed, Gear and Acceleration)

The five learners went off by themselves with another instructor and someone else to assist who had no qualifications to be teaching. (I know the person and skill level) This now left three instructors and 11 riders.
I witnessed one of them continually fail to indicate through three roundabouts then ride through roadworks with a designated 30 km/hr speed limit at 70 km/hr . I questioned him and he said that he was doing 50 kms per hour.

Braking was covered with a three minute video at lunch as well as counter steering. No demonstration was given.

I was further alarmed when being overtaken buy a guy on a 250cc motorbike through the same 30 km/hr work zone I have just mentioned, showering my bike with stones and showing a blatant disregard for other road users. To rub salt in to the wound, none of the instructors mentioned it to him or confronted him about it.

Further frustration arose when I saw that the Pro rider leader was riding a bike that was not registered to be on the road.

I was disheartened to see three riders in front of me run compulsory stops signs. Again I think it reflects on a lack of proper instruction and a glossing over of the road rules at the beginning of the day. How after 5 1/2 hours of so called training are riders still running stop signs.

By three o'clock I still had yet to receive any feedback on my riding, when I questioned this, I was told I was smooth but probably travelling too close to the centre line on left hand bends. I did mention that I get excellent visibility through the corner from there, and always give up the position for safety .....’’oh good he says’’.

At the end of the ride I was given a certificate of completion, a smiley sticker on my dashboard to remind to smile, relax and enjoy the ride, and a photocopied picture of the vanishing point.....the first time it was mentioned during the whole day. How the hell do you teach cornering with no emphasis on the vanishing point? I was also given a book on other reading material and encouraged to check out You Tube videos.

[Andy67]

i have done some digging through some mates in high places and it seems that Roger is connected with the IAM who were not successful in the tender for the ACC program.
Profesional jealousy?? I think that he has done some harm to their reputation. :facepalm:

IAM is a charity Starbug. I think your mates dont know their arse from their elbow.

[Andy67]

Do you not think that when you ride your bike you make YOUR OWN decisions? i do! if my mate doesn't stop at a stop line i will not just follow him through, I make MY OWN decision.

A motorcycle instructor does not have the power to control your bike.





If the instructor was unable to control repeated breaches of the road code and or dangerous riding then they can end the ride. Pretty simple.

[Andy67]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger.

So I will let the other instructors take up your comments, either way, positive or negative the only outcome will be positive for all riders of all ages and all levels, without challenge we are nothing, we cannot proceed to higher levels.
.

Kev, you may be a top bloke in real life but you come across like some one has pissed in your weetbix only it's not your weetbix.

If roger said he saw these things then that's good enough for me.

He has no agenda other than he writes about his motorcycle experiences both good and bad and has done so for years.

You are not that instructor.

Can't wait for the instructor in question to comment like you promised.

Would love to go for a ride with you. You sound shit hot.

[Kev The Rev]

Hi Andy, thanks and yep, love wettabix, actually eat 6 a day. Shit hot rider, no sorry M8 but most L riders ride better than me. As you state I was not that instructor on his group, but I was tarred by his one sided brush and gave my version. I take punches when I am wrong but I did not make the comment (Can't wait for the instructor in question to comment like you promised) I wrote (I am personally going to contact the 5 students I never met them before, nor do I know them now and with Pro riders permission ask them to write a short letter on how they felt the training day went (positive or negative) with the permission of the students post the letters here on this web site so that you readers and fellow bikers can be the judges. I do not know what Prorider or the other instructors course of action will be, that’s there prerogative. I am in the process of instigating what I wrote and hope that these students will write. I am at a loss at your comment, He has no agenda other than he writes about his motorcycle experiences both good and bad and has done so for years , surely, it is inconceivable that in the course of a whole days riding, he can not say one, just one thing positive ? He must be as you say, shit hot eh? Ride safe

[Andy67]

Hi Andy, thanks and yep, love wettabix, actually eat 6 a day. Shit hot rider, no sorry M8 but most L riders ride better than me. As you state I was not that instructor on his group, but I was tarred by his one sided brush and gave my version. I take punches when I am wrong but I did not make the comment (Can't wait for the instructor in question to comment like you promised) I wrote (I am personally going to contact the 5 students I never met them before, nor do I know them now and with Pro riders permission ask them to write a short letter on how they felt the training day went (positive or negative) with the permission of the students post the letters here on this web site so that you readers and fellow bikers can be the judges. I do not know what Prorider or the other instructors course of action will be, that’s there prerogative. I am in the process of instigating what I wrote and hope that these students will write. I am at a loss at your comment, He has no agenda other than he writes about his motorcycle experiences both good and bad and has done so for years , surely, it is inconceivable that in the course of a whole days riding, he can not say one, just one thing positive ? He must be as you say, shit hot eh? Ride safe

Hey Kev, that's a lot of weetbix, have you considered pies ?

Look I understand where you are at with respect to your personal pride and standards, great traits. I also think your modestly around riding skill is cool, 55 years and still around says it all for me. Irrespective of he said she said I think their maybe some systemic issues common to any organisation and as you say if that is a development opportunity for the better, then all good.

Peace bro

[Mom]

Interesting thread. I am surprised that the instructor that was conducting raftn's lesson has not responded to his copied blog. I am sure that the contents of it have been brought to his/her attention. Perhaps they think responding on a forum such as this is not appropriate?

However, I would have thought it very appropriate to respond, at least to thank raftn for his feedback and suggesting a better place to have the discussion.

As it stands I have read an opinion piece from someone I know to be qualified to comment, being responded to by someone that, was not on that ride and really cant comment on it, but who is offended that someone has had the audacity to have done so.

So, I am going to join in the discussion and ask why? I am indirectly paying for this course, as are all owners of registered motorcycles (or motorcycles that are registered), and, I want to know that it is delivering value. A non road legal bike on an ACC funded training lesson? That is my first question.

Looking forward to a meaningful response.

It's been ages...

[Blackbird]

I think Andy has hit the nail on the head. I know some of the people who were involved (on both sides of the fence to speak) and they're good people and accomplished riders. I'd bet the atmosphere would be a whole lot more productive over a coffee. The people involved can only ever be as good as the systems, procedures and standards let them be.

[Mom]

I'd bet the atmosphere would be a whole lot more productive over a coffee.

Nice sentiments, and I agree for the most part. However, there appears to be no offer of a caffiene fuelled talk. From either side.


However, I would have thought it very appropriate to respond, at least to thank raftn for his feedback and suggesting a better place to have the discussion.

I stand by this statement!

[Kev The Rev]

Many thanks Andy, and appreciate your kind comments and yes I fully understand it is frustrating for readers and I can honestly say I do not know the official stance from the organization but I will be meeting shortly with them and the other instructors who participated in Rogers course and I also personally need to verify certain aspects of what transpired. Perhaps they are formulating a response and gathering facts? Lets wait and see and cheers for now, ride safe. Ps, I have a problem with pies as well! Shit they are sooo good.

[James Deuce]

Asking students to respond in regard to the quality of the training is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. For many of them, I'm sure this was their first experience of rider training outside of the BHS scenario, so they are unlikely to be able to provide credible, objective commentary.

Someone feeling they received quality training and someone knowing that they didn't are diametrically opposite poles in the world of rider training.

[Tricia1000]

IAM are not now, and have never been, a training body, they are an examining body. They do not have any "I" endorsed instructors, carrying out any training.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


Do you not think that when you ride your bike you make YOUR OWN decisions? i do! if my mate doesn't stop at a stop line i will not just follow him through, I make MY OWN decision.

A motorcycle instructor does not have the power to control your bike.

And if a student was to be stopped by the fuzz then he/she would be the only one in trouble.
So i believe your comments to be inaccurate Viking01. sorry.

i have done some digging through some mates in high places and it seems that Roger is connected with the IAM who were not successful in the tender for the ACC program.
Profesional jealousy?? I think that he has done some harm to their reputation. :facepalm:

[nzspokes]

IAM are not now, and have never been, a training body, they are an examining body. They do not have any "I" endorsed instructors, carrying out any training.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

Looks like his mates in high places are not as high as he thought. :facepalm:

[Glowerss]

Looks like his mates in high places are not as high as he thought. :facepalm:

Maybe he meant his mate was just plain high? Really, really high :sunny:

[ChiefEX]

IAM are not now, and have never been, a training body, they are an examining body. They do not have any "I" endorsed instructors, carrying out any training.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

For clarification, IAM did not participate in any tender with ACC or Auckland transport. There is no commercial interest, hence we are a registered charity. We do not train, we assess over a period of time and offer feedback against the advanced motorcycle test standard. We are a voluntary organisation dedicated to the promotion and administration of the advanced roadcraft test. We do not get paid for our efforts in verifying riders ability to ride to the advanced standard beyond covering examiners expenses. Our membership is made up of riders who have had their skills assessed against very stringent criteria. Those who carry on to become observers within the organisation do so without financial gain. The institute of advanced motorists is a completely independent body which encompasses riders from many different backgrounds. This includes a wide range of motorcyclists, some of which are NZTA qualified instructors with an 'I' endorsement, from a nationwide list of companies (including one instructor on the pro-rider team). Some of these were successful with tenders, some werent. The constitution of the institute requires us to be ethical and professional in all aspects of dealings with the public. Promoting road safety is what we are all about. From what I understand the issues highlighted in the OP concerned breaches in current NZ road legislation, from people placed in a position of responsibility to guide their students. These instructors are not current NZ-IAM members.

If you have any concerns about bias in the nature of our operations, please address them to me.

Chief Examiner
Institute of advanced motorists (NZ)

enquiries@nz-iam.org.nz

[MadDuck]

I am indirectly paying for this course, as are all owners of registered motorcycles (or motorcycles that are registered), and, I want to know that it is delivering value. A non road legal bike on an ACC funded training lesson?

Had a chat with someone today who was on a course the same weekend but not the same one if that makes sense...lol. The story is so similar to Rogers it is scary.


Someone feeling they received quality training and someone knowing that they didn't are diametrically opposite poles in the world of rider training.

BINGO! You dont know what you dont know. To receive this training first up you would be none the wiser.

[Ender EnZed]

BINGO! You dont know what you dont know. To receive this training first up you would be none the wiser.

So, is there any commercially run advanced rider training that's actually any good?

[nzspokes]

So, is there any commercially run advanced rider training that's actually any good?

Yes. :yes:

[Tricia1000]

Yes. In the Auckland area, I provide Advanced Rider Training, Roadcraft School of Motorcycling Ltd., and Phil at Riderskills also provides Advanced Rider training. Both of us train, students to whatever level they wish to reach. We can also train them to the standard required for an IAM test, if they wish.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


So, is there any commercially run advanced rider training that's actually any good?

[Blackbird]

So, is there any commercially run advanced rider training that's actually any good?

Andrew Templeton at Roadsafe also runs them in your area, tailored to meet your specific requirements.

[Tricia1000]

I too, am indirectly paying for this course as well, and I expressed an interest in taking part in one of the courses, to see if I could glean extra tips, from a track rider, as I still learn a little something new every time I get on my bike, but I was refused access to any of the Por-Rider courses....

For me, it would have been a chance to suck the brains of the track riders, and see if there is anything extra to learn, I am like a sponge in that respect.
From the "training schools" point of view, I am not sure........if nothing else, it would have been $300 in their pocket.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

[So, I am going to join in the discussion and ask why? I am indirectly paying for this course, as are all owners of registered motorcycles (or motorcycles that are registered), and, I want to know that it is delivering value. A non road legal bike on an ACC funded training lesson? That is my first question.

Looking forward to a meaningful response.

It's been ages...[/QUOTE]

[Edbear]

I too, am indirectly paying for this course as well, and I expressed an interest in taking part in one of the courses, to see if I could glean extra tips, from a track rider, as I still learn a little something new every time I get on my bike, but I was refused access to any of the Por-Rider courses....

For me, it would have been a chance to suck the brains of the track riders, and see if there is anything extra to learn, I am like a sponge in that respect.
From the "training schools" point of view, I am not sure........if nothing else, it would have been $300 in their pocket.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

[So, I am going to join in the discussion and ask why? I am indirectly paying for this course, as are all owners of registered motorcycles (or motorcycles that are registered), and, I want to know that it is delivering value. A non road legal bike on an ACC funded training lesson? That is my first question.

Looking forward to a meaningful response.

It's been ages...[/QUOTE]

They may see you as competition, picking their brains to help set yourself up?

How are things going with your courses? You not in the local shop now? Not quite off topic... :innocent:

[Tricia1000]

Closed the shop at the end of the lease. Landlady wanted to put my rent up.
Everything else is going well, thanks, Edbear.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA




They may see you as competition, picking their brains to help set yourself up?

How are things going with your courses? You not in the local shop now? Not quite off topic... :innocent:[/QUOTE]

[Edbear]

Closed the shop at the end of the lease. Landlady wanted to put my rent up.
Everything else is going well, thanks, Edbear.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA



They may see you as competition, picking their brains to help set yourself up?

How are things going with your courses? You not in the local shop now? Not quite off topic... :innocent:[/QUOTE]

Shame bout shop but good to hear you still going well. I see you around town following a newbie from time to time. Have to catch up for a coffee sometime.

[Tricia1000]

Sounds great.... give me a shout, when you are free. 0212693246

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA




Shame bout shop but good to hear you still going well. I see you around town following a newbie from time to time. Have to catch up for a coffee sometime.[/QUOTE]

[blue rider]

Asking students to respond in regard to the quality of the training is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. For many of them, I'm sure this was their first experience of rider training outside of the BHS scenario, so they are unlikely to be able to provide credible, objective commentary.

Someone feeling they received quality training and someone knowing that they didn't are diametrically opposite poles in the world of rider training.

had a bit of training myself, albeit not enough. One with Phil from Riderskills, and I blame him fro keeping me alive when I first ventured out on the road and one with some people out in Albany on a ACC sponsored Sunday day.

I will always go back to Phil for training, paid, subsidized or free, don't care as it is that good. The Instructors that I had on the ACC course will never see me again, it was that bad.

Phil from Riderskills is a teacher, he is not a cool mate, ah shucks type o'guy, he is an instructor that apparently really really is into keeping people well prepared for the road so that they may enjoy themselves and stay alive.

my 2 cents

[Tryhard]

Por-Rider courses....

[/QUOTE]

:clap::clap:

[Tricia1000]

:clap::clap:[/QUOTE]

OOps!! Typo

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

[James Deuce]

You guys need to learn to do quotes properly. HTML uses square brackets to denote the start of a function. It closes the function with a forward slash after a square bracket, then the function, then a right square bracket.

Irrespective of moving off topic, this is going the same way every discussion about anything "motorcycling in NZ" goes. An open discussion about rider training standards should be encouraged, but as usual it descends into backbiting and "my training standards and methods are bigger and better than yours" type arguments.

[bosslady]

You guys need to learn to do quotes properly. HTML uses square brackets to denote the start of a function. It closes the function with a forward slash after a square bracket, then the function, then a right square bracket.

Irrespective of moving off topic, this is going the same way every discussion about anything "motorcycling in NZ" goes. An open discussion about rider training standards should be encouraged, but as usual it descends into backbiting and "my training standards and methods are bigger and better than yours" type arguments.

Totally agree with you. Some of the attitude that is being displayed would put me off considering using some trainers/instructors.

[Berries]

[QUOTE=James Deuce;1130524182]You guys need to learn to do quotes properly.QUOTE]

What he said.

[nzspokes]

The OPs original statement should be passed on to ACC for them to investigate.

[bosslady]

The OPs original statement should be passed on to ACC for them to investigate.

If there were serious concerns, which it appears there are, from the OP, then that's the first thing they should have done.

[raftn]

If there were serious concerns, which it appears there are, from the OP, then that's the first thing they should have done.

A full copy of the blog and a letter was sent to Auckland Transport, I have yet to hear a reply. It was also sent to the NZTA who with my permission has passed it on to ACC.

A full copy of the Blog (as feedback) was sent to Pro rider before posting here on KB. I am still waiting a response.

[stormerUK]

Hi Raftn,
It would be nice to hear from the officiating rider from NZTA who attended the Pro Rider courses and authorised the subsidised course payments.
Dylan.

[Tryhard]

Why have we still not heard from Por Rider on this one?

[Mom]

Why have we still not heard from Por Rider on this one?

Write and ask them, I have :sunny:

[Kickaha]

Why have we still not heard from Por Rider on this one?

Maybe they feel they have better things to do than come onto KB and defend themselves against a bunch of know it all cunts who weren't even there for the course :whistle:

[Tryhard]

Maybe they feel they have better things to do than come onto KB and defend themselves against a bunch of know it all cunts who weren't even there for the course :whistle:

My mistake I thought the op raftn was on the course he wrote about. My bad :motu:

[GTRMAN]

As the issues raised are of real concern, and from what has been written the OP has raised these issues with the appropriate people, perhaps the KB peoples court needs to just let it go.

To be honest any training organisation worth its salt will take the feedback on board and deal with any congruencies in the appropriate way.

I'm sure the results of any discussions or remedial changes will make their way on to this thread.





IPSGA

[nzspokes]

Any news on this?

[MadDuck]

Maybe they feel they have better things to do than come onto KB and defend themselves against a bunch of know it all cunts who weren't even there for the course

Then there are those of us cunts who care about how our tax money is being spent. They dont need to come on here you are correct. But some of us care if our tax money is being pissed against a wall. It it obvious you dont. Good for you. I damn well do.

[raftn]

Then there are those of us cunts who care about how our tax money is being spent. They dont need to come on here you are correct. But some of us care if our tax money is being pissed against a wall. It it obvious you dont. Good for you. I damn well do.


Even through I have sent two emails to Prorider, they have choosen not to repsond to either. It is a shame, if nothing else it was an opportunity for them to address some issues and pehaps change for the good. No business, person, system or structure is completly faultless. Humilty and learning from our mistakes goes along way to improvment.

I recived an email from Auckland Transport, it addressed to me, but was , as expected a fairly standard reply.

I have voiced my concerns, and raised the matter with all relevant Governtment deptartments. I can do no more than that.

My time is better spent working with motorcyclists , through IAM who wish to ride to an advanced standard.

For people who are serious about training, there are many good training business, (Some mentioned here) that will offer you a great level of proper training, It wont cost $50, but the benefit is not measured in moneatary terms.

I had been riding for 7 years before I undertook an Advanced one on one rider instruction course.....it took me two hours before I even got out of the car park. I learnt so much that day that it installed a burning desire to ride to a high standard. To perfect the art of motorcycling. It is a goal I still pursue.


For those that are interested there are several blogs I have written that are dedicated to that journey. A serch of my blog will show them.


http://rogerfleming-raftnn.blogspot.co.nz/

I count myself lucky that I can enjoy one of lifes great hobbies and passions.

[gunnyrob]

hey boys & girls, I've just attended the prorider training day at Hampton downs. I am also a full member of IAM (though not yet an observer) but found the day to be well organised, suitable for learner and above (all split into groups) and fun. no real dramas were spotted, and it was noted that things like "is your rego, wof, and is your licence sweet for yur bike" were included as part of the pre ride brief. it was obvious that the issues raised by this thread have been addressed.

As an experienced person in a mentoring role, I will be recommending this training to personnel in my RNZAF road riding group.

thanks karel & chris, your feedback was choice.

[nzspokes]

I've just attended the prorider training day at Hampton downs.

Which is at the core of the problem. Road training should be on the road.

Cheapest is not the best.:facepalm:

[GTRMAN]

Which is at the core of the problem. Road training should be on the road.

Cheapest is not the best.:facepalm:

Maybe horses for courses, sometimes it is best to focus on the mechanical interaction with the motorcycle in an environment where the hazards are few and controlled. However I agree that anything that is focused on road riding or roadcraft needs to be on the road.

[wharekura]

I attended RoadSafe course recently with most of the cost covered by councils. My reason for going is that I have got back into riding since Nov 2011 and wanted to sharpen up on my cornering.
Team consisted of Instructor and 5 to 7 Ulysess mentors.
Course reduced from Sat Novice, Sun Experienced to Sat only mixed. Would of been around 25 students of varying age, ability (the odd L plates were visible) and gender.
The course consisted of 50% theory and 50% practical in car park for braking, cornering and slow maneuvering.

My criticisms would be:
1. Day too short to fit everything in
2. I wanted the focus on being a novice, so I wasnt with a group of experienced riders that would get bored - or with someone in the theory sessions that thought s/he knew more than the instructor!
3. Needed a practical on road session followed by mentors, so they can give advice (e.g. your cornering is crap and you need to do...)

However:
1. Well organised
2. Theory sessions enjoyable and interesting (crash stat figures given every so often) and key things emphasized ("eyes up", hand of the front brake etc)
3. Mentors were very mindful and always gave tips on how to do things during practical sessions
4. They made sure the basics were mastered - like emergency braking

For this particular course I attended, it should be treated as a general all-rounder and I think is ideal before going to something like a road craft course which I am now looking for. My daughter is one year away from sitting her license and I will definitely be sending her to one of Andrew's (the instructor) courses.

Overall, I enjoyed it. And I came out with more confidence.

[gunnyrob]

Which is at the core of the problem. Road training should be on the road.

Cheapest is not the best.:facepalm:

One course does not fit all, this is one arrow in the quiver and this track based course allowed us to explore cornering techniques in a controlled environment.

I totally agree that there is a need for urban based training such as that offered by other training providers.

Given that we were split into groups of twelve, it was impossible to have the detailed one on one interaction as I had with Phil McDaid when I undertook a confident rider course with him last year.

Considering that this course is one of very few ways to get use of our ACC levies, you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you don't take advantage of it. As I said, I'll be recommending it to others in my riding group.

Well done to ALL those reputable training providers out there, you're doing a great job.