Suzuki GN250 Bobber starting problem

[Tombstone]

Hey guys, just bought a Suzuki GN250 bobber that won't start (knew this when I bought it). I've fully charged the battery and all the lights etc are working fine. The tank is 3/4 full and when I try to start her up I hear a click (assume this is the starter motor trying to engage) but that's about it. Stand was up, fuel on and no joy. Any ideas? Not biggy if I have to take it in somewhere to get it sorted in which case can anyone recommend a motorbike shop in CHCH which is reasonably priced and deals with this sorta thing? Any advice, help greatly appreciated. Cheers.

[Disco Dan]

A large cliff and a 'push'....

Failing that try a known good battery...

[Tombstone]

Been reading up a little on the problem and from what I can gather the battery is most likely stuffed and will need replacing??? Apparently the starting motor will make a spinning noise if it's shot? Does that sound right? Cheers.

[FJRider]

Hey guys, just bought a Suzuki GN250 bobber that won't start (knew this when I bought it). I've fully charged the battery and all the lights etc are working fine. The tank is 3/4 full and when I try to start her up I hear a click (assume this is the starter motor trying to engage) but that's about it. Stand was up, fuel on and no joy. Any ideas? Not biggy if I have to take it in somewhere to get it sorted in which case can anyone recommend a motorbike shop in CHCH which is reasonably priced and deals with this sorta thing? Any advice, help greatly appreciated. Cheers.

Most likely the starter solenoid ... not really a major ....

An auto sparky would sort it pretty quickly ...

[FJRider]

If you have doubts about the battery ... use jumper leads from a car. If that starts it ... it IS the battery.

If it doesn't ... go to action B ...

[Tombstone]

A large cliff and a 'push'....

Failing that try a known good battery...

LOL! I know it's not a beast of a bike but I'll give the cliff thing a miss - bought the bike for a cheap set of wheels to get to work and got it for a song. I think the guy simply couldn't be bothered even trying to sort the problem so hopefully it's as simple as a dud battery and the problem will be solved. Was running sweet and then he went to start it up one morning and nothing.

[Karl08]

Or this

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/73526-GN250-regulator-rectifier-u-s

[Tombstone]

If you have doubts about the battery ... use jumper leads from a car. If that starts it ... it IS the battery.

If it doesn't ... go to action B ...

Will try that now and post back in a minute. Cheers.

[Tombstone]

Ok, tried jumping from car but no joy. Starter made a pathetic attempt to engage (lame little whurrr then click again) but that was about it. Slightly better than a click but not enough welly to breathe life into her. Solenoid?

[FJRider]

Ok, tried jumping from car but no joy. Starter made a pathetic attempt to engage (lame little whurrr then click again) but that was about it. Slightly better than a click but not enough welly to breathe life into her. Solenoid?

Most likely ...

[Karl08]

had a similar prob- turned out it was the rectifier

[Tombstone]

had a similar prob- turned out it was the rectifier

Apparently the guy I bought it off replaced it with a new one last November but a mate down the road (owns a tonne of bikes and been riding for years inc racing) popped over and had a look and seems to think it's the solenoid so I'm going to have it tested tomorrow. Will see how it pans out.

[Karl08]

hope it gets resolved quickly mate.

[nzspokes]

Roll start it, if it goes then its the solenoid.

[Banditbandit]

Yeah .. sounds like the solenoid ...

[Tombstone]

Update - solenoid appears to be fine. Tested it last night, tried to crash start and no joy (good compression though). Spoke to a guy down at KG Motorcycles and he's 100% convinced the starter motor needs the brush replaced - says he's dealt with a tonne of them. I'll take the starter motor off tonite and get it down to him in the morning to have it sorted. Hopefully problem solved. Will update when I get it sorted.

[Tombstone]

Pulled the starter motor apart and the brushes are worn and one of the small coil springs that hold them in is buggered. Being fixed now and hopefully that's the problem solved. Will keep ya'll posted.

[Fergus]

If a push start won't work, logic says a rebuilt starter won't either...:scratch:

[Tombstone]

If a push start won't work, logic says a rebuilt starter won't either...:scratch:

Well, either way it needed repairing and if it doesn't work when reinstalled then I'll move on to the next thing. Gotta start somewhere so why not with the part that's buggered? Seems kinda logical to me. See where you're coming from though - cheers.

[Tombstone]

If a push start won't work, logic says a rebuilt starter won't either...:scratch:
Goddam - you were right (but starter needed rebuilding anyway)! Even connecting the two poles on the solenoid did nothing. So back to the drawing board. Stoopid bike!

[Karl08]

....ahh the joys and despair that comes with owning a bike....

[Tombstone]

....ahh the joys and despair that comes with owning a bike....

If I wasn't a grown man I'd cry ... but shall persevere and get it running if it near kills me.:brick:

[ducatilover]

I don't see how the reg/rec can stop a GN from starting.
Did you try putting power straight to the starter?
I'd roll start it in 2nd or third, if no dice then you might have a rooted power cable from the battery or a munted earth.

If I saw this sooner I could have sent you another good starter and solenoid

Sent from a place with lots and lots of GN parts

[Tombstone]

I don't see how the reg/rec can stop a GN from starting.
Did you try putting power straight to the starter?
I'd roll start it in 2nd or third, if no dice then you might have a rooted power cable from the battery or a munted earth.

If I saw this sooner I could have sent you another good starter and solenoid

Sent from a place with lots and lots of GN parts
I'm kinda new to the bike thing (have always tinkered with old hot rods and cars) so I'm a little green on it so what would you suggest? Is there some way of trying to actually isolate the problem without having access to what your average motorcycle mechanic might have handy like meters etc? I really want to get her going and it's kinda depressing as I just threw $80 at the starter being rebuilt (with new brushes and armiture) and still nothing. I rang the guy back and he's kinda stumped. Here's what I've done so far. Recharged battery and no joy so mate down the road had a new one which we made sure was fully charged and still no joy. Starter brushes were shot along with spring so had that rebuilt - nada. Tried push starting - no joy (compression good though). Bridged poles on solenoid and got good spark but didn't ignite starter - losing my mind now. Checked all connections - battery, earth etc which are nice and clean. Kinda stumped now. Got two autistic boys who are dying to hear it run and so am I. By the way I really appreciate your offer - cheers. Here's a pic of the bike as it is now (I'm a freelance low brow artist so gonna hit her with some custom artwork when I get it up and running).
280464280465280466

[Karl08]

I don't see how the reg/rec can stop a GN from starting.
Did you try putting power straight to the starter?
I'd roll start it in 2nd or third, if no dice then you might have a rooted power cable from the battery or a munted earth.

If I saw this sooner I could have sent you another good starter and solenoid

Sent from a place with lots and lots of GN parts

I have no idea either- just basing it on what the bike mechanic diagnosed.

[ducatilover]

Why did you have no joy push starting it? Did you build up a running pace and dump the clutch?
Owner's manual http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26633588/GN250%20Manual.pdf may help you out

[bogan]

Sounds like you have at least two problems.

My picks are:
1) Dodgy high current connection to the starter somewhere, so while you get a decent spark by shorting the poles, the current is still shy of what it needs to tick over.
2) You're shit at push-starting :bleh:

Alternatively
1-238) its fucked

Other Alternatively
1) mechanical issues making it harder for the starter to turn over
2) electrical issues for same
3) electrical issues making it unable to be push started
4) mechanical issues for same

Diagnosis
Find out why it isn't push starting, the starter problems shouldn't affect this at all.

[Tombstone]

Why did you have no joy push starting it? Did you build up a running pace and dump the clutch?
Owner's manual http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26633588/GN250%20Manual.pdf may help you out

if I knew I'd tell ya but I can say this much - by the end of it I was sweating like a man on the run and have to sit under the air con for a good half an hour so certainly wasn't for want of trying. Threw her into second, got up speed, dumped the clutch - nada.

[Sable]

Grow some balls and crash start it. Every. Time. Artists = pussies

[FJRider]

if I knew I'd tell ya but I can say this much - by the end of it I was sweating like a man on the run and have to sit under the air con for a good half an hour so certainly wasn't for want of trying. Threw her into second, got up speed, dumped the clutch - nada.

Try 3rd or 4th gear. 5th Even (you can push it for longer) ... 2 is way too low for a non runner.

Good plugs you know are ok. Not the plugs that are in it that "LOOK" ok ...

[Tombstone]

Grow some balls and crash start it. Every. Time. Artists = pussies
I'm a welder fabricator by trade and build industrial fuel tanks ranging from 150 litres to our most recent being a 100,000 litre AV fuel tank. The tanks can weigh up 40 tonne and every inch of my welding has to be faultless. The tanks are built to be bullet, bomb, collision and fire proof. Sound like a fucking pussy to you pal?

[Tombstone]

Sounds like you have at least two problems.

My picks are:
1) Dodgy high current connection to the starter somewhere, so while you get a decent spark by shorting the poles, the current is still shy of what it needs to tick over.
2) You're shit at push-starting :bleh:

Alternatively
1-238) its fucked

Other Alternatively
1) mechanical issues making it harder for the starter to turn over
2) electrical issues for same
3) electrical issues making it unable to be push started
4) mechanical issues for same

Diagnosis
Find out why it isn't push starting, the starter problems shouldn't affect this at all.
I won't lie - it could be number 2 :facepalm:

[Tombstone]

Thanks for the advice guys - it's been really appreciated. Cheers.

[bogan]

That's your best hope for an easy fix I think. Trouble is, its got a lot to do with feel, and judging the sounds.

The basics of push starting it are to put it in gear (second or even third on a GN as others have said), run it up to speed then jump on. Time it so when your weight lands on the pegs you release the clutch and start the engine spinning over, then roll the throttle on a bit. A GN is a good little bike to learn it on, my 65kg self has push started my 650 V-twin on occasion too, so in your case it will be only technique that needs a bit of work (or the bike itself).

Whether it burbles, bogs, coughs etc in response to the throttle can tell you a lot about the problem.

[ducatilover]

Try 3rd or 4th gear. 5th Even (you can push it for longer) ... 2 is way too low for a non runner.

Good plugs you know are ok. Not the plugs that are in it that "LOOK" ok ...

2nd is fine on a GN, I've roll started mine many a time just for fun and you can do it while "on" the bike, just stand up and run. It's kind of amusing.


I'm assuming it turned over when you roll started it?
Next to check, spark and fuel.
Getting fuel in is piss easy, blow in to the carb bowl vent (RHS of the carb) and it'll chuck some up the intake.
Check for power at the coil
If it's not seeming like it's turning over, get a big flat blade screw driver, take the small cover off the LHS stator/engine cover and use a 22mm socket to turn the motor anti-clockwise (towards the front) just to make sure it's okay.

If you have fresh fuel, power to coil, good plug:
Compression check
Valve clearances and timing
Check the main fuse (it's the only fuse on most GNs, so probably not the issue)
Use the elec diagram to check the kill switch, delete the neutral and side stand cut out switches to the starter solenoid (nuetral is blue/white wire from memory and sidestand is a solid green)
Then check the pick up coil (it's in the stator cover and you'll find the wires coming from that to the CDI box, there's a resistance value in that manual)
Check CDI
etc etc


Sent from a strangely warm place

Quick edit: Check the earth strap to the engine, goes to the rear of the clutch side cover and check the other earths.

[buggerit]

kill switch in correct position?
Try + on battery to starter with jumperlead.
If no joy , jump from negative on battery to chassis as well

[carburator]

i hate to say it mate, but buy yourself a multi meter and a hanyes mannual and go from scratch on the loom..

had a mini one that stopped intermittanly, been to the garage three times... finally the wire that was causing
the issue broke in plain sight, one new terminal crimp later fixed... hindsight.. frigging exspenzie...

[Tombstone]

Hey thanks for all the tips guys - have started going through everything bit by bit and here's what I have so far. Plug seems fine, solenoid all good, removed and retested starter motor and firing like a rocket, made sure all terminals were clean as a whistle, fully recharged battery, side stand up and checked fuel. Will start trying out some of the other suggestions you guys have made and see what happens. I'm beginning to wonder if it's not more of a mechanical issue rather than electrical, based on everything I've tried so far ... will keep trying though. If I can learn how to rebuild V8's I'm sure I can figure this out. Oh the joy of bikes that don't work. PS anyone local who knows a thing or two about this stuff feels like rocking over and having a look then happy to spring for some beers or work something out .... cheers.

[Tombstone]

Why did you have no joy push starting it? Did you build up a running pace and dump the clutch?
Owner's manual http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26633588/GN250%20Manual.pdf may help you out

Hey cheers for putting me onto that man - bloody handy. Seeing how it all works means I can now start figuring out what the actual problem is. Nothing worse than taking a cover off and having parts fall out with no idea where they came from. Learned that the hard way.

[bogan]

Hey thanks for all the tips guys - have started going through everything bit by bit and here's what I have so far. Plug seems fine, solenoid all good, removed and retested starter motor and firing like a rocket, made sure all terminals were clean as a whistle, fully recharged battery, side stand up and checked fuel. Will start trying out some of the other suggestions you guys have made and see what happens. I'm beginning to wonder if it's not more of a mechanical issue rather than electrical, based on everything I've tried so far ... will keep trying though. If I can learn how to rebuild V8's I'm sure I can figure this out. Oh the joy of bikes that don't work. PS anyone local who knows a thing or two about this stuff feels like rocking over and having a look then happy to spring for some beers or work something out .... cheers.

So the starter works out of the bike, the bike turns over alright on push start, but the starter doesn't work in the bike?

Sounds like there is a mechanical issue which is stalling the starter, or that the starter isn't getting enough current to turn the bike over; which is either battery power, or wiring.

[Tombstone]

So the starter works out of the bike, the bike turns over alright on push start, but the starter doesn't work in the bike?

Sounds like there is a mechanical issue which is stalling the starter, or that the starter isn't getting enough current to turn the bike over; which is either battery power, or wiring.
Yeah, I'm thinking it's mechanical as everything electrical seems to be doing what it should so might have to delve a little deeper ... joy

[FJRider]

Yeah, I'm thinking it's mechanical as everything electrical seems to be doing what it should so might have to delve a little deeper ... joy

Does the starter not turn the motor over ... or not just not start it .. ???

[Tombstone]

Does the starter not turn the motor over ... or not just not start it .. ???

Starter doesn't turn the motor over - battery fully recharged (also brand new so not an old one) and starter works as it should so wondering if it has something to do with the starter idle gear itself??? Mate's gonna come over Tuesday and we're gonna throw it up on the bench and go right over all the electrics and try a few things out if not just to eliminate stuff as being the problem. No mad panic but would be nice to get it going sooner rather than later.

[FJRider]

Starter doesn't turn the motor over - battery fully recharged (also brand new so not an old one) and starter works as it should so wondering if it has something to do with the starter idle gear itself??? Mate's gonna come over Tuesday and we're gonna throw it up on the bench and go right over all the electrics and try a few things out if not just to eliminate stuff as being the problem. No mad panic but would be nice to get it going sooner rather than later.

Check ALL the fuses. There is often one in the starter circuit.

And ... some plugs do LOOK good. But are not (trust me on this). Get the motor spinning on the starter motor ... and check the spark. Then compare it with one out of your car. (or known to be good/new)

[ducatilover]

Have you got a multimeter? I would be making sure it's getting a good amount of power when you hit the start button.



Sent from my device using baby oil

[FJRider]

I would be making sure it's getting a good amount of power when you hit the start button.



Sent from my device using baby oil

I would check the start button is clean and making good contacts ...


Sent from purgatory using hand signals

[nzspokes]

Starter doesn't turn the motor over - battery fully recharged (also brand new so not an old one) and starter works as it should so wondering if it has something to do with the starter idle gear itself??? Mate's gonna come over Tuesday and we're gonna throw it up on the bench and go right over all the electrics and try a few things out if not just to eliminate stuff as being the problem. No mad panic but would be nice to get it going sooner rather than later.

Does anything turn the motor over? Push it in gear with the plug out?

[Tombstone]

Will try a few of your suggestions out tomorrow and keep ya'll updated. Mate down the road might have a meter so will hit him up in the morning and see what I come up with. Will also look at buying one as it'll come in handy anyway - another tool for the box. Cheers.

[Tombstone]

Does anything turn the motor over? Push it in gear with the plug out?

Nothing turning the motor over at all ... in saying that, we tried it on one occasion last night with the fully charged battery and it did start to make a really weak whir sound but that was about it. About as close as we've got it to actually firing up. Tested battery and all good.

[Tombstone]

I would check the start button is clean and making good contacts ...


Sent from purgatory using hand signals

will do - cheers

[bogan]

Nothing turning the motor over at all ... in saying that, we tried it on one occasion last night with the fully charged battery and it did start to make a really weak whir sound but that was about it. About as close as we've got it to actually firing up. Tested battery and all good.

Wait, so it didn't event turn over when you tried to push start it? Did the rear wheel just lock up then?

[FJRider]

will do - cheers

Inside those switch blocks ... is a lovely place for spider nests ...

[nzspokes]

Nothing turning the motor over at all ... in saying that, we tried it on one occasion last night with the fully charged battery and it did start to make a really weak whir sound but that was about it. About as close as we've got it to actually firing up. Tested battery and all good.

Ok, the reason I asked that is it does sound like the motor has seized. I would be taking off on of the side covers and trying to crank the motor by hand to confirm.

[Tombstone]

Ok, the reason I asked that is it does sound like the motor has seized. I would be taking off on of the side covers and trying to crank the motor by hand to confirm.

I'll give it a go but I don't think it's seized ... that's not to say that something inside the motor hasn't locked up though because that's pretty much what I think has happened. See how it goes and let you know. Cheers.

[bogan]

I'll give it a go but I don't think it's seized ... that's not to say that something inside the motor hasn't locked up though because that's pretty much what I think has happened. See how it goes and let you know. Cheers.

Can you be a bit more clear on what happened when you tried to push started it?


Tried push starting - no joy (compression good though).

To me says it turns over while pushing, but then you also say


Nothing turning the motor over at all

It makes it really hard for us to help diagnose the problem when you don't give us clear information.

[ducatilover]

As I said, take that bit out the LHS cover with a big flathead and turn it over with a 22mm socket.

[FJRider]

Nothing turning the motor over at all ... in saying that, we tried it on one occasion last night with the fully charged battery and it did start to make a really weak whir sound but that was about it. About as close as we've got it to actually firing up. Tested battery and all good.

Try a power connection to the starter that is NOT from/connected to ... the bike.

If it's the same result ... it would point to mechanical.

If it turns it over ... electrical issues.

[Tombstone]

Ok - just to try and clear things up a little when I push started it I could hear the motor turn over but not in such a way that it hinted at actually wanting to start. Have also pushed now with plug out to make sure crank is turning over and all good - not seized. Emailed the guy I bought it off and he told me that the bike gradually got harder and harder to start over time to the point where it would no longer start at all. To my mind that sounds like an electrical fault but here's the problem - when I use and external current to the starter motor nothing happens apart from a few sparks and that's about it. Gonna watch some tv and leave it for tomorrow me thinks.

[ducatilover]

You need external earth from external source to engine and then power to the starter
And a cigarette lighter.

Whenever I'm back down in my garage I can dig out some parts if you're needing any and send them down to you


Sent from somewhere that's far from my garage using testicular sweat

[Craig23]

Ok - just to try and clear things up a little when I push started it I could hear the motor turn over but not in such a way that it hinted at actually wanting to start. Have also pushed now with plug out to make sure crank is turning over and all good - not seized. Emailed the guy I bought it off and he told me that the bike gradually got harder and harder to start over time to the point where it would no longer start at all. To my mind that sounds like an electrical fault but here's the problem - when I use and external current to the starter motor nothing happens apart from a few sparks and that's about it. Gonna watch some tv and leave it for tomorrow me thinks.

Hey Tombstone, did you get this bike going in the end? I think I have a similar problem. I am able to push start the bike though. Does anyone here know whether a faulty stator can cause he electric start to fail. All I get is a clicking solanoid.

[nodrog]

312190

_____________

[RichardB]

Hey Tombstone, did you get this bike going in the end? I think I have a similar problem. I am able to push start the bike though. Does anyone here know whether a faulty stator can cause he electric start to fail. All I get is a clicking solanoid.

Yeah I'm curious too. Have a GN250 that push starts and runs fine, but trying starter only get a click and feeble whir occasionally. Now for the interesting stuff - swapped out (one at a time) with a working GN250 : battery, starter motor and solenoid. All of which worked ok in the good GN, none of which made any difference in the dead GN. As it runs fine when push started, then its not a engine mechanical issue. Having isolated out the battery, starter motor and solenoid there's not a lot of electrical left. I've tried a car battery directly to starter motor - in the bike its really feeble. On the bench runs like a champ.

So, I'm down to a mechanical issue in the sprag clutch connecting the starter motor to crank. It all looks legit and can only go together one way (??), or am I wrong?

I haven't gone over the starter button switch - the car battery directly to starter motor failure kinda rules that out. Earth strap on battery and starter motor clean and tight.

Anyone else with grey matter input that could help?

[ellipsis]

...sounds like your grey matter is working just dandy...carry on...

[awayatc]

Did not read every post, but.......
to eliminate electrical wrongs.....hook up jumperlead from good battery to + terminal on starter.
Hook up jumperlead from - battery to starter body.
then use 3rd little jumper lead from + battery to solenoid.

[spanner spinner]

looks like your on the right path and have done most checks that I would do plus a few more BUT!!! check the earth cable connection to the engine. This is a cable bolted to the right rear of the engine and the negative battery terminal and is connected by one of the clutch cover bolts. these get left off all the time and then the starter motor tyres to earth back through the wiring loom earth which is to light for the load. Even if the cable is connected take it off and check the connection for corrosion as there is a mixture of aluminium, copper and steel in the connection. add a little electricity and moisture and you get the perfect conditions for corrosion which will eventually cause a high resistance connection.

[RichardB]

Solution at hand...found a seized GN250 for small change which has started me on a tangential path. Seized one had lunched on an exhaust valve - net result = punched piston & skirt (surprisingly FA damage at all to bore!), only valve stem left in head, seriously F'ed up combustion chamber. Its a newer model with bearing shims for cam shaft, but cam and chain were pretty worn. Other surprising thing is that starter would turn over motor (good boy...don't do that for long with that shit going on inside her) Sooooo.....

New plan - strip both motors. Measure, look, twist, poke, compare...steal the best of for one and part out what's left. Cleaned up required best bits - amazing what a bit of effort with a bronze wire brush can do to engine internals. Gears look polished, things slide against each other real smooth, shiny slick stuff. Sounds like foreplay. Trial assembly of good engine - things turn over real sweet and easy. Gears shift nice and smooth. Strip again with the intention of removing internals and bearings, re-assemble cases, barrel and head to sand/bead/soda blast back to nude metal. Want to do cases in high temp black, but leave barrel and head as is.

Anyone got recommendations for high temp clear coat? I have done regular clear coat on engines in the past but suffers from a bit of yellowing from heat. Seems to stick ok, just dont like the sick colour.

Next question - I intend to cut off the non-essential frame tags. Passenger foot peg loops, rear seat frame behind suspension mounts, extraneous mounting tabs etc. Nothing structural - keeping stock suspension, geometry, seating position (for 1). But before I do that can anyone tell me if that constitutes enough modification to get a LV certifier involved? I've been in contact with a m/c certifier in Wanganui to ask him about my plans. I don't want to build something that can't be legally ridden. I've got bigger, longer term plans for this project (a bare bones leaner sidecar hack) - so his response was "send me your detailed plans for the complete project, otherwise you'll be up for 2x certification costs". I couldn't manage to draw him out on whether a modest frame massage and cosmetics would clear a WOF without a red tape swimming pool.

In summary - mystery of starter motor issue resolved, but underlying cause undetermined. Kind of like saying your STD is cured, but we don't know how you got it. Don't think it was engine earth - had been cleaned and tightened. Plus car battery to starter motor (installed) still got no engine turn over. M/c battery or car battery to starter alone (uninstalled) ran fine. If starter motor clutch was rooted it would either not engage and spin freely, or not release - running motor would be spinning the starter all the time. Neither is the case. Still ??? http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/blink.gif

[ducatilover]

Did you open the starter up? Could have been a cracked magnet or something

Just modify it :msn-wink: 315084 mine might have a WoF one day

[RichardB]

Hahaha..yeah never much of a fan of bureaucracy interfering with art, science and "damn that looks cool". I've gone other way with mine - bobber vs cafe. Your rear sets look cool. I need to figure out some forward controls. Throw some pics up soon.

Yeah, possibly a cracked magnet that shows up under electrical load. Under no load (out of engine) spins freely, but in engine won't crank, regardless of battery/solenoid/starter switch/earth.