Drug decriminalisation in Portugal [Archive]

scissorhands

28th March 2013, 13:11

Sweden.

drug addiction is a disease, treat it like one. But punish any criminal behaviour used to finance a lifestyle. Win win. its too sensible for this country tho.

While most who are addicts probably have addict/alcoholic parents, part of what you say is true, its a hereditary disorder. But the process od addiction is usually self medicating, like say being funny looking or with a mental disorder. Even astrologically those born rooster are more prone than most other chinese animal archetypes to suffer addiction issues.

I have OCD [obsessive compulsive disorder...] properly channelled its a resource for survival, or excellence, an evolutionary strength, misregulated, and I'm an all or nothing, imbalanced, my own worst enemy. But an underlying autism [and societies reaction to] creates the OCD... creates self medication to escape........bring it all down

As far as NZ addiction issues go, a massive reduction in drug and alcohol harm would occur if simply for [well run] kibbutz style farms/communities or simply a primary spiritual experience... and commonly occuring following life change's...

Detox programs seem to work for most people for some time, then, the underlying cause that has still not been addressed.... let alone been made aware of.....family or lonliness issues maybe, resurfaces

Addicts are a [necessary] by product of society, often sensitive souls. Like a bodies self maintaining systems..... not all cells will be healthy. In an organic body, less cells will be diseased. Winners are often horrid.

We all have dis ease's, some choose chemical treatments, some musical, machinery and bikes, food treatments, sex addictions.............. I was on a skateboard for 6 hours yesterday....now I can hardly move.

Choose your poison

Brian d marge

28th March 2013, 13:22

Just thinking the same this morning , the boys were flying helecopters to pull up a few plants ,,,why ? why do they spend so much money ......

he ho

Stephen

James Deuce

28th March 2013, 13:52

Yay! Pseudo-science! Yay! And Astrology! YAY! Also, for good measure RELIGION! HOORAY!

I am a bad person but I am not going to hell because there is no such thing. So you'll just have to be comfortable with me being a bad person.

Fergus

28th March 2013, 14:04

I am a bad person but I am not going to hell because there is no such thing. So you'll just have to be comfortable with me being a bad person.

You are going to hell...

for implying astrology isn't pseudoscience ;)

James Deuce

28th March 2013, 14:24

Oh bollocks, it does read like that, doesn't it?

Porcupines rule!

Akzle

28th March 2013, 17:10

I'm not pro hard drugs decriminalisation, but I found it interesting to read that over 12 years of trialling, the "end of the world" scenarios everyone seems to always predict hasn't happened.

why draw the line? are the general population not smart enough to make decisions for themselves?
most drugs people use recreationally, you can get a prescription for.
many of the drugs you can get a prescription or: you wouldn't want because they're fucking toxic shit.

and what's going to happen to the gang's funding, if any joe can just go down to the corner dairy and pick up a couple of pins and some coke for the weekend?
regulated dose/consistency/purity, regulated price, and a bit of that tax stuff that the government likes.

I have OCD [obsessive compulsive disorder...] properly channelled its a resource for survival, or excellence, an evolutionary strength, misregulated, and I'm an all or nothing, imbalanced, my own worst enemy. But an underlying autism [and societies reaction to] creates the OCD... creates self medication to escape........bring it all down

As far as NZ addiction issues go, a massive reduction in drug and alcohol harm would occur if simply for [well run] kibbutz style farms/communities or simply a primary spiritual experience... and commonly occuring following life change's...
Choose your poison

i have CDO. it's like OCD, but the letters are in order. :D

i do tend toward self medication... how are my eyebrows, bro?

modern "society" lacks a "coming of age" ritual. the 21st is no longer what it once was, now just an excuse to drink lots of alcohol and vomit, same as every other weekend, really.
the mingians used to send their boys into caves with a peace pipe and leave them there for the weekend, they either got stoned and fell off a cliff, or learned the meaning of life.
i'm into that shit.

check out DMT man, and if you find a source (ayahuasca, esque), i'll come over for a sass.

scissorhands

28th March 2013, 18:07

why draw the line? are the general population not smart enough to make decisions for themselves?
most drugs people use recreationally, you can get a prescription for.
many of the drugs you can get a prescription or: you wouldn't want because they're fucking toxic shit.

and what's going to happen to the gang's funding, if any joe can just go down to the corner dairy and pick up a couple of pins and some coke for the weekend?
regulated dose/consistency/purity, regulated price, and a bit of that tax stuff that the government likes.

i have CDO. it's like OCD, but the letters are in order. :D

i do tend toward self medication... how are my eyebrows, bro?

modern "society" lacks a "coming of age" ritual. the 21st is no longer what it once was, now just an excuse to drink lots of alcohol and vomit, same as every other weekend, really.
the mingians used to send their boys into caves with a peace pipe and leave them there for the weekend, they either got stoned and fell off a cliff, or learned the meaning of life.
i'm into that shit.

check out DMT man, and if you find a source (ayahuasca, esque), i'll come over for a sass.

I'm onto it man, mescaline is indicated for OCD, and its done the trick!

Its odd that OCD responds well to a mushroom trip. Alcoholism treatments were pioneered with an acid trip experience.

If I was a farmer, or trying to build the next 'Worlds fastest Indian' I'd probably make a lot of money and/or succeed, with my resident OCD to drive me forward from the great wallowing herd

God thats enough to drive you to drink if you think about it too much....

mashman

28th March 2013, 18:39

Oh that NZ grows a similar set of balls... and plants for LEGAL consumption.

007XX

28th March 2013, 22:23

While most who are addicts probably have addict/alcoholic parents, part of what you say is true, its a hereditary disorder. But the process od addiction is usually self medicating, like say being funny looking or with a mental disorder. Even astrologically those born rooster are more prone than most other chinese animal archetypes to suffer ....

Addicts are a [necessary] by product of society, often sensitive souls. Like a bodies self maintaining systems..... not all cells will be healthy. In an organic body, less cells will be diseased. Winners are often horrid.

We all have dis ease's, some choose chemical treatments, some musical, machinery and bikes, food treatments, sex addictions.............. I was on a skateboard for 6 hours yesterday....now I can hardly move.

Choose your poison

Whhaaaat? Are you serious? C'mon, you're just taking the mickey there surely...

why draw the line? are the general population not smart enough to make decisions for themselves?
most drugs people use recreationally, you can get a prescription for.
many of the drugs you can get a prescription or: you wouldn't want because they're fucking toxic shit.
.

Why? Honestly?

Because I have a visceral need to protect my kids from being exposed to fucked up shit like acid, coke, heroin, etc
And in my motherly mind, the more easily available, the more likely they will be, at one point or another, to be exposed to it and tempted. This is a certainty, no matter how good an upbringing I have been giving them.

Now, I realise that reading this, I might come across as a prim and proper twin sets and pearl little goody two shoes. But you know what? Fuck it... The farther I keep my children from hard drugs, the better I feel, and there is nothing anyone can say that'll make me change my mind.

I'm onto it man, mescaline is indicated for OCD, and its done the trick!

Its odd that OCD responds well to a mushroom trip. Alcoholism treatments were pioneered with an acid trip experience.

....

Could it be something along the lines of why Ritalin (and other psychostimulants) is used in treating the chemical imbalance in the brain at the source of ADD or ADHD?

Ender EnZed

28th March 2013, 22:54

I have a visceral need to protect my kids from being exposed to fucked up shit like acid, coke, heroin, etc
And in my motherly mind, the more easily available, the more likely they will be, at one point or another, to be exposed to it and tempted. This is a certainty, no matter how good an upbringing I have been giving them.

I agree, totally. And I think it's what all children should be exposed to. Drugs are not GOOD. Ever. Basically.

But, regardless of the legal structure and the effective system in which he or she is brought up in, he or she is very likely to encounter drugs.

The how and why is not that important. It'll happen; just like penis(cock)/pussy(vagina) and (breasts)boobs. Nothing will ever make puberty boring. At some level you could probably construct a competition between drug use and teenage pregnancy. No one will win of course bu it's in the nature of growing up.

The question that impacts so heavily on society is what any given individual will do on discovery of a method of excitement that relies on no one else. You can't expect kids to avoid excitement because you say so, that's just dumb. You have to teach them the effects of drugs in a holistic manner if you expect them to pay attention. That includes the positives.

I don't think kids will ever stay clear of and avoid what they don't really know and suspect might be cool.

007XX

28th March 2013, 23:08

I agree, totally.

But, regardless of the legal structure and the effective system in which he or she is brought up in, he or she is very likely to encounter drugs.

The how and why is not that important. It'll happen; just like penis(cock)/pussy(vagina) and (breasts)boobs. .

So you agree, but you don't... :facepalm:

Anyway, I don't want to be rude but trying to reason with a mother's wish to protect her children is never really going to lead you anywhere. And no, this is not about how over protective I may be, or whether father would be just as protective.... Blah blah.

My view, as single minded as it may seem to some people, is that if I can get them through teenage years with the least exposure to drugs as possible, and with as strong a moral ethic as possible, then maybe I'll have a snowball chance in hell to see them through unscathed. When they are more mature, they'll hopefully be strong enough to resist the lure of "perceived coolness" and make the right choices for themselves.

Now, I'm pre menstrual, it's the full moon and I'm out of chocolate. Do you *really* want to tell me I'm kidding myself again?

mashman

28th March 2013, 23:34

My view, as single minded as it may seem to some people, is that if I can get them through teenage years with the least exposure to drugs as possible, and with as strong a moral ethic as possible, then maybe I'll have a snowball chance in hell to see them through unscathed. When they are more mature, they'll hopefully be strong enough to resist the lure of "perceived coolness" and make the right choices for themselves.

Now, I'm pre menstrual, it's the full moon and I'm out of chocolate. Do you *really* want to tell me I'm kidding myself again?

I'm game... it'll be the second time today (although we have chocolate), but WTF in for a penny etc... Are you going to vet your kids friends? I had a mate at school who used to scough and turn hi nose up at us "druggies". We respected his choice, he wasn't singled out and once he had left school and went to Uni he turned into a bigger druggy than any of us. To excess one could argue. 18 in bloke years that means we're about to turn 14/15.

The difference between our 2 upbringings were huge. His father was quite repressive in ways and I took the blame as the wayward one leading his son astray. He needed no encouragement. My father was the opposite. I had my first spliff with him and his friends whilst sitting at the kitchen table. One of his friends handed me a joint, I looked at dad for approval and he nodded. As you might think, the door was open. It wasn't a bad experience given the "just say no" that was being pumped at the youth in those days. I experimented a little further with a few things, albeit stayed away from Heroin. For the most part it was social. Every now and then there were binges. Either way, I had been armed with the experience and it then became my choice to fuck up or not. I guess the biggest positive was in knowing that my parents had been there, done that, had had the bad experiences, had explained the potential consequences and then left me to my own devices.

To that end. Tis noble that you want to shelter your kids from drugs etc... but they are going to find out. I'm not going to hide my drug use, not that I do any these days, from my kids. I'm going to treat it like alcohol. My 9 yr old knows I've taken drugs, she asked me, and she knows what drugs I've taken. She stared at me like I was a mad man and was glad that I am still alive. If she's getting this aged 9 and she starts meeting people who have taken drugs and survived, she's going to wonder what the hype is all about. I hope I'm there the day she gets properly curious as I can offer her my experiences as a bench mark, give her a few simple "rules" to ignore should she wish and then I'm gonna let what happens happen. I don't see that as me being a bad parent, more proactive.

Good luck with your quest.

scissorhands

29th March 2013, 00:19

Druggies may be little worse than beered up meat heads?

The tinnie house near me has a 20 year old cat. They spend a fortune on keeping this moggy alive, and are some very intelligent people with great diets and figures, even though they drink, smoke and carry on. Conversations are high minded

Check out some overweight, junk food, anti drug units:oi-grr:

The problem is overuse of drugs, misuse, not just drug use per se, and overuse is a comorbid of an underlying repression disorder needing expression, prohibition and the lack of real drug education

Go home after work on Friday and read a book??

Brian d marge

29th March 2013, 00:55

The bbcdid a great series a while back , in a nut shell , drugs fun but bad

weed , in the teenage brain does TEND to cause mental issues ( paranoia being one. ( me ,,,I cant smoke now unless Im drinking as I get all paranoid ,,,doom and gloom etc , not fun )

Also SOME personality types go further ... as they do

So end result , I would like the natural product decriminalized , ie parking ticket , and using class A to be community service , but making big monies ,,, hung drawn and quartered ( we can still do that cant we?)

Stephen

piss head from hell and coffee mainliner .......

Akzle

29th March 2013, 06:15

Because I have a visceral *vaginal need to protect my kids from being exposed to fucked up shit like acid, coke, heroin, etc
And in my motherly mind, the more easily available, the more likely they will be, at one point or another, to be exposed to it and tempted. This is a certainty, no matter how good an upbringing I have been giving them.

Could it be something along the lines of why Ritalin (and other psychostimulants) is used in treating the chemical imbalance in the brain at the source of ADD or ADHD?
1) drugs are easily available, you're not going to change that. decades of prohibition by a militant army of thugs hasn't.
what are you going to tell them? drugs are bad? and when, as mashy says, they have a toke and don't die? then where will your advice lie with them? ("well, she lied about that, so...")

personally, from a young age, i got right into my drugs. self medication, world denial, whatever the cause, i had a lot of fun, and very few bad trips. maybe that speaks to how happy and well adjusted i am at a subliminal level :whistle:

my mum was a toker, now a drinker, the old man was anti- everything, except alcoholism, which i think his new missus and a healthy dose of diabetes has nearly cured him of.

i think, as with everything else, if children are exposed to it in a safe and sensible manner (cars and guns, come to mind), and you've doe your job raising em right, they will be able to make decisions for themselves.
my daughter (7) likes, or pretends to like, beer, that's fine, i give her some every now and then, she's been drunk to the point of uncoordination at least once. (i can hear mothers everywhere sharpening their pitchforks)
and i last year took them to a young fullas 21st (why am i the only cunt alive with a glass yard glass?) he's not a heavy drinker normally, and a meter of cold steinys saw him projectile on the lawn. my kids saw all this.
i'm contemplating taking them into auckland town one night, so they can see how fun drunk fuckwittery really is.
mine help me bottle my homebrew, they see me drink, they help me in the garden, they see me smoke. i haven't had anything better for a while, mainly because i need a horses dose to do the trick and i can't afford that shit.

2) nevermind rittalin, methamphetamine (yes, that evil P drug) is used to treat various mental disorders. evil, evil P.

so yess.. i'd love to change your mind, but if you've genuinely thought about it and feel that's the best course of action, who am i to tell you how to raise your kids.

Drugs are not GOOD. Ever. Basically.
shit. better tell pharmac.

WTF in for a penny etc...

Good luck with your quest.
:niceone:

The bbcdid a great series a while back , in a nut shell , drugs fun but bad

weed , in the teenage brain does TEND to cause mental issues ( paranoia being one. ( me ,,,I cant smoke now unless Im drinking as I get all paranoid ,,,doom and gloom etc , not fun )

Also SOME personality types go further ... as they do

So end result , I would like the natural product decriminalized , ie parking ticket , and using class A to be community service , but making big monies ,,, hung drawn and quartered ( we can still do that cant we?)

Stephen

piss head from hell and coffee mainliner .......
yes and no. i know a guy who's classed as psychotic, and on (heavy) (legal) meds to "control" it, and all "becuase he tried P once", now this guy may have had many, many issues, by psychosis was not one, and methamphetamine was not the cause and a lifetime script for something codone isn't the answer.
i do not believe MJ causes any mental issues, but it can certainly exacerbate them.
as with P, etc.

i believe, as a species, we can self medicate, which is as simple as eating good food. your body knows what it needs, when you have a craving for X, Y or Z, you could probably get a blood test to tell you your X, Y, Z vitamins are down. you'd be surprised how often this works. you have a million different sub-species, mainly bacteria, living in your body and they've developed a fairly symbiotic relationship, including signaling their host to tell you when your body is out of whack.
people really, really need to get in tune with their nature, mann!
to extend that, self medication also includes use of recreational substances, and activities that promote your body to produce it's own drugs (sex, riding motorbikes, jumping off cliffs, hard exercise etc)

Sent from between my second cup of espresso and fifth ciggy.

mashman

29th March 2013, 08:45

you could probably get a blood test to tell you your X, Y, Z vitamins are down.

If we were serious about knowing what was wrong with people or what people's body's needed, we'd be baselined from 16ish. We'd get blood drawn once every 3 months and it'd be loaded into a database. A proactive approach to healthcare. Oh shit his gogglechocknunchuckganglydangly levels are out of whack, which if left untreated brings on diabetes. Take this prescription to the chemist and he'll make up a custom pill, at the right dosage required, to reset your gogglechocknunchuckganglydangly levels. Hell you could submit your own blood online and a program would return the address of where you can pickup your prescription. But we're not really that serious about knowing what's wrong with the body of an individual coz it costs too much money.

scissorhands

29th March 2013, 10:32

I have a number of caring and nurturing herbalist women near me to draw on.
But still I find the internet a better physician [for me]. I will run things past them, but healing thyself is each and everyones own [and family's] responsibility.
The issue is with how physicians are paid. Traditionally in China, doctors only got paid when you are well, not when you are sick....

Brian d marge

29th March 2013, 15:47

My body is a temple ,,,,,,,

ruined , abandoned and occationally visited by perverts

fk I need a beer , ( one of my home made coffee stouts ) !

Stephen

Fergus

29th March 2013, 16:19

Whhaaaat? Fuck it... The farther I keep my children from hard drugs, the better I feel, and there is nothing anyone can say that'll make me change my mind.

You may want to consider a move to the middle east, the 'hardest' drug of all is available in your local supermarket ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/0140673610614626fig2.jpg

SMOKEU

29th March 2013, 17:31

You may want to consider a move to the middle east, the 'hardest' drug of all is available in your local supermarket ;)

That chart is a load of shit to say that cannabis is more harmful than butane. There have been many documented cases where deaths have occurred as a direct result of inhaling butane. It's happened in NZ a few times, too. Same goes for ecstasy and several other drugs listed on there.

scissorhands

29th March 2013, 17:50

There appears to be anecdotal evidence that occasional to light cannabis smoking is often beneficial, much like red wine, dark ales and whiskeys, in moderation.

All the aspies on an aspie site are talking medication.
Starting this one, stopping that one, changing dose. Horror stories, years to come right scenarios, side effects from hell, toxic to liver and kidneys, may cause stomach ulcers!

Whats wrong with plant based, organic and often healthier alternatives from ones own garden??

As far as whats best for ones children, avoiding toxic exposures, foods and environments will preserve the family jewels more than prohibition ever will.

Zedder

29th March 2013, 17:55

Fergus

29th March 2013, 17:58

That chart is a load of shit to say that cannabis is more harmful than butane. There have been many documented cases where deaths have occurred as a direct result of inhaling butane. It's happened in NZ a few times, too. Same goes for ecstasy and several other drugs listed on there.

Shit, sounds like you should submit your research to The Lancet!

http://www.thelancet.com/lancet-information-for-authors

""The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's best known, oldest, and most respected general medical journals""
(BBC news)

Akzle

29th March 2013, 18:22

As I understand it, the chart shows cumulative effects (ie: increasing by successive doses) not one-off deaths.

and, to date, not ONE person has EVER died from cannabis use. statistically, it's safer than riding motorbikes...

Mushu

29th March 2013, 18:41

Drug prohibition is bullshit, all you parents who use kids as an excuse haven't really looked at what prohibition actually does, you make criminals out of people who sell drugs to supply themselves these people then sell to your kids to make their profits to pay their supplier and most of this cash goes back to funding gangs. I guarantee my 11 year old nephew can get weed, exstacy or P far easier than he can get beer or tobacco cos the guy selling it just wants the money, he needs I D for legal drugs

If you make all of these substances legal and regulated, and educate the population then kids can't get them (like alcohol, tobacco), police time is used to get violent criminals instead of stupid potheads, imagine the tax profits, and all that funding gets taken off the gangs.

On top of all that how much time and effort goes into trying to get rid of pot, if compared to alcohol pot is nothing nobody has ever died from pot never, it doesn't increase aggression like alcohol, doesn't increase risk taking behavior. Doesn't impare your senses like alcohol (it does effect the ability to make complex decisions). It's not 100% safe, but this is a motorcycle forum, will you let your kids ride when they come of age?

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

Mushu

29th March 2013, 18:55

and, to date, not ONE person has EVER died from cannabis use. statistically, it's safer than riding motorbikes...

Lol, statsticly its safer than a chicken sandwich, you can choke, or die from selmonella

I heard once they figure the amount necessary for an OD is something like 500 oz in an hour, pretty sure you'd die of smoke inhalation first

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

Kickaha

29th March 2013, 19:02

and, to date, not ONE person has EVER died from cannabis use.

nobody has ever died from pot never,

https://familycouncil.org/?p=6506
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-179264/Cannabis-kills-30-000-year.html

Fergus

29th March 2013, 19:06

As I understand it, the chart shows cumulative effects (ie: increasing by successive doses) not one-off deaths.

Nope, it weights acute and chronic physical harm equally.

you can read the full paper here:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/fulltext
(You do need to register, it's free).

The root of the problem IMO:
""Drug misuse and abuse are major health problems. Harmful drugs are regulated according to classification systems that purport to relate to the harms and risks of each drug. However, the methodology and processes underlying classification systems are generally neither specified nor transparent, which reduces confidence in their accuracy and undermines health education messages.""

Mushu

29th March 2013, 19:24

Inhaling any burned plant matter is inhaling quite a few unintended substances like tar so long term risks are similar to smoking, what I meant was you cannot ever die from a single use, the point you raise shows exactly how toxic marijuana is, about on par with a cigarette, or a cheeseburger.

And there are ways to avoid the carcinogenic effects of smoking pot like baking with it or using a vaporizer (mines for sale by the way).

I would go back and edit my posts to change 'pot' and 'marijuana' to read 'thc' to address your argument, but I can't be fucked.

What about all the legitimate medical uses of marijuana there are plenty of medical problems for which pot is by far the best medicine.

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mashman

29th March 2013, 19:56

https://familycouncil.org/?p=6506
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-179264/Cannabis-kills-30-000-year.html

http://www.strokecenter.org/patients/about-stroke/stroke-statistics/

"Researchers calculate that if 120,000 deaths are caused among 13million smokers, the corresponding figure among 3.2million cannabis smokers would be 30,000"

"In Britain, about eight million people admit to smoking cannabis"

See the "problem" with that article?

Having said that. Maybe it does directly kill people. Maybe it doesn't. But with the number of coulds, mights, ifs, probablys etc... the following hardly supports the conclusion of the first article:

"These people may not have died from a marijuana overdose, but if they had not used marijuana, they might still be alive today."

"Marijuana’s contributions to fatalities from strokes, cardiovascular failure, and others, however, are indisputable."

Indisputable, yet they MIGHT still be alive.

Brian d marge

29th March 2013, 23:37

it wasnt the weed that killed em it was the "munchies"

http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/N3ug0dVCyeE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> (http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/N3ug0dVCyeE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>)

breathe butternuts breathe

stephen

Akzle

30th March 2013, 06:51

"linked to" ≠ "caused" or as old arsehole would put it, correlation is not causation

if i smoke pot and shoot myself in the face, did the pot kill me?
if i smoke pot and ride my bike under a truck, did the pot kill me?
if i smoke pot and... fuckit, i'm out, but you get the idea?
physically it is impossible to die from cannabis ingestion, in any way shape or form. unless you were injecting hash oil or something.

Flip

1st April 2013, 08:00

and, to date, not ONE person has EVER died from cannabis use. statistically, it's safer than riding motorbikes...

I have burried 3 of my mates over the years from drug related problems. One was a OD, one from aids and one took his own life. They were all week willed junkie fools, they all started off smoking dope, hung out with the "wrong" people, experimented with heavier shit then it all went down hill. The moment you start smoking dope then you start dealing with pushers, drug dealers and junkies from there it is all too easy to start down a very slipery slope.

I have lost a few good mates from motorcycle accidents also.

SMOKEU

1st April 2013, 09:57

I have burried 3 of my mates over the years from drug related problems. One was a OD, one from aids and one took his own life. They were all week willed junkie fools, they all started off smoking dope, hung out with the "wrong" people, experimented with heavier shit then it all went down hill. The moment you start smoking dope then you start dealing with pushers, drug dealers and junkies from there it is all too easy to start down a very slipery slope.

I have lost a few good mates from motorcycle accidents also.

All the people I've ever met who smoke buds started off with alcohol, tobacco and caffeine. So alcohol, tobacco and caffeine are clearly gateway drugs.

The vast majority of pot users I've met have never tried any hard drugs either, and I've never met anyone who deals hard drugs, so how does that sit with your theory?

I'm also sorry to hear that 3 of your former friends are deceased due to drugs, but don't blame their pathetic excuse for a life on weed. It sounds like they were fucked up to begin with.

Madness

1st April 2013, 10:28

One was a OD, one from aids and one took his own life.

How many of them were promiscuous homosexuals, Tinkerbell?

Flip

1st April 2013, 10:29

What a load of twaddle.

All 3 of my mates who have died from drugs related problems started using dope then moved onto harder substances. None of the thousands of folk I know who smoke or drink have a hard drugs problem. If we use your logic you could blame hard drug use on any common denominator eg wearing nappies when they were children.

The common denominator in my mates case was probably the pushers, the dope suppliers were happy to push harder more expensive drugs onto the dope smokers. If you hang out with low life dope smoking junkies you become a low life junkie criminal.

Madness

1st April 2013, 10:33

If you hang out with low life dope smoking junkies you become a low life junkie criminal.

But it's ok to hang out with junkies who don't smoke dope? What a load of bullshit.

James Deuce

1st April 2013, 10:38

Smoking ANYTHING is setting yourself up for lung disease. Lung disease is pretty terminal.

SMOKEU

1st April 2013, 10:44

[QUOTE=Flip;1130523640]

None of the thousands of folk I know who smoke or drink have a hard drugs problem.QUOTE]

Yet most people who have a "hard drugs problem" probably also drink alcohol. So, yet again, your point proves nothing.

Flip

1st April 2013, 10:48

But it's ok to hang out with junkies who don't smoke dope? What a load of bullshit.

You have quoted one sentance from a paragraph.

My junkie mate who killed himself hung himself in the garage of my flat, I found him and cut him down. It is a very undignified way to go, you do shit and piss yourself, after 30 years I still carry a pocket knife as I never want to hold anybody up and not have a knife at hand again.

This was my wake up call, I suggest you learn some thing from it.

Madness

1st April 2013, 11:00

This was my wake up call, I suggest you learn some thing from it.

Don't hang out with fudge-packing junkies? Go to the toilet before hanging yourself?

Fact: Cannabis didn't kill your friend.

Fergus

1st April 2013, 11:01

Arguing over anecdotal evidence = :facepalm:

mashman

1st April 2013, 11:08

Smoking ANYTHING is setting yourself up for lung disease. Lung disease is pretty terminal.

What about the people who don't and contract lung disease?

You have quoted one sentance from a paragraph.

My junkie mate who killed himself hung himself in the garage of my flat, I found him and cut him down. It is a very undignified way to go, you do shit and piss yourself, after 30 years I still carry a pocket knife as I never want to hold anybody up and not have a knife at hand again.

This was my wake up call, I suggest you learn some thing from it.

What about people who don't take drugs and hang themselves?

SMOKEU

1st April 2013, 11:14

You have quoted one sentance from a paragraph.

My junkie mate who killed himself hung himself in the garage of my flat, I found him and cut him down. It is a very undignified way to go, you do shit and piss yourself, after 30 years I still carry a pocket knife as I never want to hold anybody up and not have a knife at hand again.

This was my wake up call, I suggest you learn some thing from it.

While it is a tragedy that your friend committed suicide, cannabis has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I'm not trying to say that smoking copious amounts of pot is healthy, but alcohol and tobacco do significantly more harm. Ask any medical doctor about the effects of the above mentioned substances, not some muppet regurgitating more heresay and speculation about a subject they know almost nothing about.

Apart from the obvious bodily damage that excessive alcohol consumption causes, users also have a tendancy to do things they would not normally do when sober, such as engaging in high risk taking behaviour such as operating a motor vehicle in a dangerous manner, engaging in unprotected sex with new partners, starting fights etc. A person who is stoned off pot is highly unlikely to do any of that.

Have you ever been to a J day before? I suggest you do. From my observations, everyone is so chilled out from a sesh that no one starts causing any trouble. It's a big contrast to being in a pub on a Friday night with a whole lot of boozed up young people who feel like they can take on the world with no consequences.

Oh, and I hope you don't carry your pocket knife in public, as that could get you arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.

Fergus

1st April 2013, 11:17

What about the people who don't and contract lung disease?

What about people who don't take drugs and hang themselves?

Have you learnt nothing from this thread? Those people only come into existence when you personally met one. ;)

Akzle

1st April 2013, 11:29

I have burried 3 of my mates over the years from drug related problems. One was a OD, one from aids and one took his own life. They were all week willed junkie fools, they all started off smoking dope, hung out with the "wrong" people, experimented with heavier shit then it all went down hill. The moment you start smoking dope then you start dealing with pushers, drug dealers and junkies from there it is all too easy to start down a very slipery slope.

I have lost a few good mates from motorcycle accidents also.
i've done all of the above. except hanging myself.
i don't have any dealings with pushers or junkies any more, just drug users and suppliers.

and as for my motorcycle use. well. lets not go there.

Oh, and I hope you don't carry your pocket knife in public, as that could get you arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.
no, it's a tool for a job. it's only offensive or a weapon if that's the job at hand.
i've carried a knife since i was about 13. current one is a 4" gerber folder. it's bad ass and is used for opening cans and slicing fruit more often than stabbing niggers.

mashman

1st April 2013, 13:57

Have you learnt nothing from this thread? Those people only come into existence when you personally met one. ;)

I met a smoker that didn't die once.

James Deuce

1st April 2013, 15:13

What about the people who don't and contract lung disease?
That's an irrational dodge with no critical thinking behind it. You increase your chances of lung cancer, emphysema and other lung infections if you regularly inhale smoke-borne particulates into your lungs. The people who don't develop these conditions are not proof that you do not increase your chances of lung disease, and the carcinogenic compounds in tobacco and marijuana have been identified and an increase in the incidence of lung cancer in the smoking population has long been known fact. Smoked fish has been found to actively cause GI tract cancers and many of the carcinogens are the same as those that created in the act of burning anything. I'm sure that if you inhaled smoked fish, and assuming you survived the aspiration pneumonia, you would see people develop the same sorts of lung disease as smokers, given that smokers develop the same types of upper GI tract cancers in greater than normal numbers than people who don't eat smoked fish.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop. Riding a motorcycle increases your chances of serious injury or death in a MVA. I don't advocate that as a reason for giving up riding, nor do I expect smokers to give up because of an increased chance of cancer, however if you don't acknowledge that science has identified risk factors that can foreshorten your life expectancy and reduce your quality of living then I'm not going to bother discussing the issue with the willfully ignorant.

I'd love to see Marijuana decriminalised and marketed, just so we can collect some decent stats on the benefits and drawbacks of long term THC consumption via a filtered and unfiltered gaseous medium. At the moment the veil of illegality prevents most countries from undertaking long term studies.

scumdog

1st April 2013, 15:27

I'm not trying to say that smoking copious amounts of pot is healthy, but alcohol and tobacco do significantly more harm. Ask any medical doctor about the effects of the above mentioned substances, not some muppet regurgitating more heresay and speculation about a subject they know almost nothing about.

Apart from the obvious bodily damage that excessive alcohol consumption causes, users also have a tendancy to do things they would not normally do when sober, such as engaging in high risk taking behaviour such as operating a motor vehicle in a dangerous manner, engaging in unprotected sex with new partners, starting fights etc. A person who is stoned off pot is highly unlikely to do any of that.

.

Why the need for the comparison grass v booze & smokes?

Trying to support an argument that grass ain't so bad - so you select things that are allegedly worse??

Why have you not balance the comparison by comparing grass with something benign?

(BTW, I agree, booze is bad - or rather the over-use of it is bad, sorta like somne drugs..)

Madness

1st April 2013, 15:30

I agree, booze is bad - or rather the over-use of it is bad, sorta like somne drugs..

Was the owner of this Cannabis over-using it?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265181&d=1339907031

scissorhands

1st April 2013, 15:48

If your going to do anything in excess
smoke weed
Its the least harmful out of all of them
socially and personally

Eventually 99% of people will come out of their addictive flare up

Cannabis will leave you the least worst off, and even at 2-3 joints a day, the smoke related harm is maybe comparable to 5-7 ciggies, I believe the smoke related harm to be even less, by my own precise reckoning.

Many top sportsmen and woman chuff weed daily with minimal health affects, often faster times and better performances in riding sports, better focus in pool, archery etc. I've enjoyed a few games to rugby and made the auckland 3rd grade trials whilst such goings on around me....

I met a real rasta on the weekend. No grog, no tobacco, no easy women.

This guy from Ghana was a stoned out holy man, and much better than you or I in many respects....

mashman

1st April 2013, 15:50

That's an irrational dodge with no critical thinking behind it. You increase your chances of lung cancer, emphysema and other lung infections if you regularly inhale smoke-borne particulates into your lungs. The people who don't develop these conditions are not proof that you do not increase your chances of lung disease, and the carcinogenic compounds in tobacco and marijuana have been identified and an increase in the incidence of lung cancer in the smoking population has long been known fact. Smoked fish has been found to actively cause GI tract cancers and many of the carcinogens are the same as those that created in the act of burning anything. I'm sure that if you inhaled smoked fish, and assuming you survived the aspiration pneumonia, you would see people develop the same sorts of lung disease as smokers, given that smokers develop the same types of upper GI tract cancers in greater than normal numbers than people who don't eat smoked fish.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop. Riding a motorcycle increases your chances of serious injury or death in a MVA. I don't advocate that as a reason for giving up riding, nor do I expect smokers to give up because of an increased chance of cancer, however if you don't acknowledge that science has identified risk factors that can foreshorten your life expectancy and reduce your quality of living then I'm not going to bother discussing the issue with the willfully ignorant.

I'd love to see Marijuana decriminalised and marketed, just so we can collect some decent stats on the benefits and drawbacks of long term THC consumption via a filtered and unfiltered gaseous medium. At the moment the veil of illegality prevents most countries from undertaking long term studies.

I agree in regards to smoking adding an extra risk factor to smokers being more prone to lung disease, amongst other things. However I fail to see how my question was an irrational dodge devoid of critical thought, as it was merely a question that has a large relevance to the "argument". As you say there are known carcinogens and that list is constantly growing with everything from household sprays to my personal fave, engine exhaust, being up on that list. Which one of those is unavoidable? I always giggle when told that I shouldn't be having a cig where I am as it's right next to the loading bay which bellows the stuff out. Now if engine exhaust is a known carcinogen and can bring on respiratory problems and smokers can live well into old age. Isn't it possible that a number of smoking deaths could actually be related to being outside next to loading bays for instance? No doubt such an "argument" would be viewed as silly or indeed nothing more than a clutch at straws to avoid believing that smoking is self-harming... but it could certainly explain why non-smokers also develop lung disease. Heaven help the poor smoking smoke fishery delivery guy.

007XX

1st April 2013, 18:07

1) drugs are easily available, you're not going to change that. decades of prohibition by a militant army of thugs hasn't.
what are you going to tell them? drugs are bad? and when, as mashy says, they have a toke and don't die? then where will your advice lie with them? ("well, she lied about that, so...")

personally, from a young age, i got right into my drugs. self medication, world denial, whatever the cause, i had a lot of fun, and very few bad trips. maybe that speaks to how happy and well adjusted i am at a subliminal level :whistle:

my mum was a toker, now a drinker, the old man was anti- everything, except alcoholism, which i think his new missus and a healthy dose of diabetes has nearly cured him of.

i think, as with everything else, if children are exposed to it in a safe and sensible manner (cars and guns, come to mind), and you've doe your job raising em right, they will be able to make decisions for themselves.
my daughter (7) likes, or pretends to like, beer, that's fine, i give her some every now and then, she's been drunk to the point of uncoordination at least once. (i can hear mothers everywhere sharpening their pitchforks)
and i last year took them to a young fullas 21st (why am i the only cunt alive with a glass yard glass?) he's not a heavy drinker normally, and a meter of cold steinys saw him projectile on the lawn. my kids saw all this.
i'm contemplating taking them into auckland town one night, so they can see how fun drunk fuckwittery really is.
mine help me bottle my homebrew, they see me drink, they help me in the garden, they see me smoke. i haven't had anything better for a while, mainly because i need a horses dose to do the trick and i can't afford that shit.

so yess.. i'd love to change your mind, but if you've genuinely thought about it and feel that's the best course of action, who am i to tell you how to raise your kids.

i believe, as a species, we can self medicate, which is as simple as eating good food. your body knows what it needs, when you have a craving for X, Y or Z, you could probably get a blood test to tell you your X, Y, Z vitamins are down. you'd be surprised how often this works. you have a million different sub-species, mainly bacteria, living in your body and they've developed a fairly symbiotic relationship, including signaling their host to tell you when your body is out of whack.
people really, really need to get in tune with their nature, mann!
to extend that, self medication also includes use of recreational substances, and activities that promote your body to produce it's own drugs (sex, riding motorbikes, jumping off cliffs, hard exercise etc)

Sent from between my second cup of espresso and fifth ciggy.[/COLOR]

I have nothing againt my kids having a toke. Hell, I'll have it with them if it comes to that.
But I do have issues with them being in an environment where HARD DRUGS would be common place enough for them to be suggested to it before they are old/ strong / educated enough to know better than to try that shit.

An interesting angle: my 15 year old son got me to stop smoking 5 years ago. He is a staunch anti smoker because he has been able to see his father wheezing and coughing from it.
He is allowed a beer when the men get together, but often turns it down as he doesn't feel compelled to "fit in", and hates having seen his father loose control under the influence of alcohol.
He has been subjected to people smoking at school, and still hasn't caved in, and neither has he been given a hard time by his mates for it, cos they all like him and respect him for who he is.

I have tried my darndest to teach him to think for himself, know what he likes, doesn't like and stick to his guns. I have educated him as to the consequences of drugs, and to choose his mates wisely.

I'm not saying it's perfect or that I'm the best parent in the world. But I'll be damned if I'll let my kids out into this world thinking that it's ok to just try everything and that there won't be consequences. Knowledge is power and they have the choice. I guess it's a little narcissistic of me, but yes, I do want them to be strong willed, independant free thinkers with a healthy sense of what life is about. Hard drugs have no need to feature in that.

I totally agree with that paragraph on self medicating though. We rarely need to consult doctors in our house, mostly because we try to be in tune with what our bodies are telling us. I'm also pro making everything from scratch rather than buying all pre made crap, as well as growing my own food as discussed in another thread.

I'm game... it'll be the second time today (although we have chocolate), but WTF in for a penny etc... Are you going to vet your kids friends? I had a mate at school who used to scough and turn hi nose up at us "druggies". We respected his choice, he wasn't singled out and once he had left school and went to Uni he turned into a bigger druggy than any of us. To excess one could argue. 18 in bloke years that means we're about to turn 14/15.

The difference between our 2 upbringings were huge. His father was quite repressive in ways and I took the blame as the wayward one leading his son astray. He needed no encouragement. My father was the opposite. I had my first spliff with him and his friends whilst sitting at the kitchen table. One of his friends handed me a joint, I looked at dad for approval and he nodded. As you might think, the door was open. It wasn't a bad experience given the "just say no" that was being pumped at the youth in those days. I experimented a little further with a few things, albeit stayed away from Heroin. For the most part it was social. Every now and then there were binges. Either way, I had been armed with the experience and it then became my choice to fuck up or not. I guess the biggest positive was in knowing that my parents had been there, done that, had had the bad experiences, had explained the potential consequences and then left me to my own devices.

To that end. Tis noble that you want to shelter your kids from drugs etc... but they are going to find out. I'm not going to hide my drug use, not that I do any these days, from my kids. I'm going to treat it like alcohol. My 9 yr old knows I've taken drugs, she asked me, and she knows what drugs I've taken. She stared at me like I was a mad man and was glad that I am still alive. If she's getting this aged 9 and she starts meeting people who have taken drugs and survived, she's going to wonder what the hype is all about. I hope I'm there the day she gets properly curious as I can offer her my experiences as a bench mark, give her a few simple "rules" to ignore should she wish and then I'm gonna let what happens happen. I don't see that as me being a bad parent, more proactive.

Good luck with your quest.

Not shelter mate. Educate and empower to strengthen against. Hard drugs have no place in a healthy young individual's life, end of story.

When it comes to your referring to your friend's upbringing and yours. You forget a very important factor: personality.
Yes, upbringing has an impact but drug consumption is something that will either become attractive or not and that will more likely be due to peer pressure and the person's personality.

In the same way that smoking a joint does not lead automatically to using harder drugs, you cannot determine whether someone will try heroin just because they were forbidden it as a teen, sorry.

So in my case, my teaching technique has been working so far for my boy. My daughter on the other hand is exactly like me... :facepalm:

So I'm gonna have to approach things in a very different manner with her. As she grows older, how will become more evident.

mashman

1st April 2013, 19:34

Not shelter mate. Educate and empower to strengthen against. Hard drugs have no place in a healthy young individual's life, end of story.

When it comes to your referring to your friend's upbringing and yours. You forget a very important factor: personality.
Yes, upbringing has an impact but drug consumption is something that will either become attractive or not and that will more likely be due to peer pressure and the person's personality.

In the same way that smoking a joint does not lead automatically to using harder drugs, you cannot determine whether someone will try heroin just because they were forbidden it as a teen, sorry.

So in my case, my teaching technique has been working so far for my boy. My daughter on the other hand is exactly like me... :facepalm:

So I'm gonna have to approach things in a very different manner with her. As she grows older, how will become more evident.

Sure sure :shifty:... I agree in regards to trying to keep hardstuff, and softstuff to a degree, away from younguns.

I was just trying to highlight that irrespective of him having been surrounded by us drug nutfuckles, he didn't want a bar of it... then he went to Uni and changed his mind. Why the sudden change of mind? Peer Pressure? Or just a change of mind?

I don't recall saying that one leads on to another? May as well blame breathing if I was going down that road.

:rofl: a chip off the old block eh. I've got 5, 7 ,9 girls lining up to torture me in a few years... strong willed already and an answer for everything. Must take after their mother :innocent:.

As I said earlier, good luck to ya :rofl:... and that goes to all parents that are about to face "yourselves" 20 years ago. Praps we need local responsible parents holding get fucked up with your kids evenings... after school on a friday would suit :eek:

Mushu

1st April 2013, 19:57

Why the need for the comparison grass v booze & smokes?

Trying to support an argument that grass ain't so bad - so you select things that are allegedly worse??

Why have you not balance the comparison by comparing grass with something benign?

(BTW, I agree, booze is bad - or rather the over-use of it is bad, sorta like somne drugs..)

The opinion of one of our resident pigs, by that logic we should all be vegans or at least vegetarians cos everything else will kill you eventually (in excess) kinda sounds like we can't have weed "because I said so."
Tell me, scumdog, on Friday or Saturday night how many stoners do you pick up for violent crimes as opposed to drunks fighting at bars or beating their wives, and if I asked an ambulance driver a similar question what would he say?

007xx, proper education its the way to go, and allowing kids to make the correct choices, you can't protect your kids from everything, I was allowed alcohol all my life (less and less regulated amounts as I got older) but as an autodidact I educated myself and am now the only one in my family without a history of alcohol problems (from insane binge drinking to full blown alcoholism). But I refer back to my previous post in saying that by making all these substances illegal you create criminals, you fund criminal behavior and you make these substances more available to minors - ask your son if he thinks he can get weed or p, at the very least he would know a kid or 2 that knows where to get these things (I started buying weed from my class mates at a well respected high school when I was 13) also when I was about that age my Mum had a similar opinion of me to your opinion of your boy, are you sure you'd know if he was having a puff of the herb every now and then.

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scumdog

1st April 2013, 20:43

The opinion of one of our resident pigs, by that logic we should all be vegans or at least vegetarians cos everything else will kill you eventually (in excess) kinda sounds like we can't have weed "because I said so."
Tell me, scumdog, on Friday or Saturday night how many stoners do you pick up for violent crimes as opposed to drunks fighting at bars or beating their wives, and if I asked an ambulance driver a similar question what would he say?

I dunno who you mean by 'resident pig' sunshine but I for one would love top see alcohol disappear from the face of the earth.

Oh, and a lot of those on a Friday or Saturday night have already toked-up before hitting the Codys, Woodies or other fine beverages, maybe they think the weed will cancel out the nastiness of the alcamahol??

Although more and more seem to be going for the K2 type of shit - the benefit of that is weed is getting way cheaper...

Mushu

1st April 2013, 21:16

I dunno who you mean by 'resident pig' sunshine but I for one would love top see alcohol disappear from the face of the earth.

Oh, and a lot of those on a Friday or Saturday night have already toked-up before hitting the Codys, Woodies or other fine beverages, maybe they think the weed will cancel out the nastiness of the alcamahol??

Although more and more seem to be going for the K2 type of shit - the benefit of that is weed is getting way cheaper...

Are you not a member of the biggest gang in the world?

The common denominator (as can be seen on a fair few television programs these days eg. police 10-7) seems to be alcohol, I recently gave up pot for the purpose of passing possible piss tests. All of my friends are heavy pot users, some sell too and I can tell you none of them ever become violent or even mischiefious as a direct result of weed but there are those I will not associate with if they are drinking, or in the case of 1 friend smoking p (and I give him a ton of shit when he sobers up). All are long term users and among them use of other drugs (besides socially acceptable alcohol) is very rare, most are quite opposed to p, I see no evidence of pot being a gateway drug.

K2 (which I have been smoking a bit of lately) is a bit of an unknown entity, especially when they change it often to beat the system, pretty sure I'd be better off smoking good old Mary Jane, weed isn't getting cheaper its far less common to find a small grower these days most of it seems to be grown by the mongrel mob and they ain't gonna let the prices go down.

Look up prohibition, making alcohol illegal has been done before that's how all the 30s gangsters made their money. And plenty of people died drinking bathtub homebrew. I think that's why you won't hear the authorities refer to it as drug prohibition the population might make the connection but it all proves my point that prohibition has the exact opposite effect of what is desired.

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007XX

1st April 2013, 21:50

Sure sure :shifty:... I agree in regards to trying to keep hardstuff, and softstuff to a degree, away from younguns.

I was just trying to highlight that irrespective of him having been surrounded by us drug nutfuckles, he didn't want a bar of it... then he went to Uni and changed his mind. Why the sudden change of mind? Peer Pressure? Or just a change of mind?

Neither you nor I will ever know, for we haven't got enough info. It could have been any number of things: a girl involved, pressure from a different study dynamic, newfound freedom from parents, or all of the above combined.

But just attributing it to one factor would be overly simplistic. I grew up between a "hippyish meditation adept" mother, and a "catholic raised, extremely strict" father. She let me get away with murder, he had me followed by my uncle who was a cop... Long story short, I was predicted to end up a junkie or a whore because I was rebellious and I liked to have a good time at 16.

You don't know, nobody does. People end up what they are and how they are, partly due to outside influences sure... But mostly because of their own choices, of who they are on the inside. Drugs are but one of those choices in my view.

I trust in my kids to be intelligent enough to make the right call in the future. They'll make mistakes of course, and I'll be there to pick up the pieces, always.

Mushu

1st April 2013, 22:21

Neither you nor I will ever know, for we haven't got enough info. It could have been any number of things: a girl involved, pressure from a different study dynamic, newfound freedom from parents, or all of the above combined.

With all these plausible reasons for drug use (after high school where parents lose control and in most case even the ability to influence their kids at least for a few years)
It reaffirms my position that the only useful way to go is to educate your own kids (honestly) and encourage them to do their own research.

I notice a complete lack of arguments to my claim that prohibition has the exact opposite effect as is (atleast openly) intended.

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Akzle

2nd April 2013, 06:14

in my 'model' we get all the junkies and alcoholics onto the wacky backy, then a five day cleanse and vege fast, then an evening with Mescalito on a mountain top during a full moon with the high priestess Almitra in attendance

ohnonononNONONO NO. fuck that.

They'll make mistakes of course, and I'll be there to pick up the pieces, always.
until you die, obviously.

a complete lack of arguments to my claim that prohibition has the exact opposite effect as is (atleast openly) intended.

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considered, that, maybe no-one's arguing the point?

Sent from an unpretentious laptop using a keyboard, like a normal fucking person.

Fergus

2nd April 2013, 10:56

It reaffirms my position that the only useful way to go is to educate your own kids (honestly) and encourage them to do their own research.

You want parents to educate their children on a subject most will know nothing about? :facepalm:

You may as well be their chemistry teacher because 'some of your mates have used chemicals and they told you about their experience'...:innocent:

Anecdotal evidence (of which this thread is full of..) is for people who believe in astrology and homeopathy and should stay the fuck away from education. :yes:

Akzle

2nd April 2013, 12:54

"of which this thread is full of"

education eh.

gooder english might help you on your merry way.

scissorhands

2nd April 2013, 16:09

Anecdotal evidence (of which this thread is full of..) is for people who believe in astrology and homeopathy and should stay the fuck away from education. :yes:

Homeopathy was 50/50 patient wise with alopathic medicine at the turn of the 1900's
the Queen mother is a big fan of homeopathy
vaccines use similar processes as homeopathy
astrology is a very old science that was synonymous with science for thousands of years
something is now dumbing you down

I agree the ignorant should stay the fuck away from education, thanks
anecdotal evidence is some of the best around
when clues are needed first

Madness

2nd April 2013, 16:22

the Queen mother is a big fan of homeopathy

Dude, take a seat. I have some terrible news for you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/622457.stm

I'm guessing you've been munted for the past 11 years & never heard the news?

scissorhands

2nd April 2013, 16:29

I avoid most media and dont remember useless facts:woohoo:
I know thingy got married to whats her name

I've been uber straight for most of those years....

Madness

2nd April 2013, 16:33

I avoid most media and dont remember useless facts

But you remembered TQM was a fan of homo-pathy?

007XX

2nd April 2013, 17:15

until you die, obviously.

Nah cos I'll haunt them... I'm that stubborn. All kidding aside, isn't parenting supposed to be the voice of reason one hears in times of trials.

Meh... Hope floats eh.

Mushu

2nd April 2013, 17:51

You want parents to educate their children on a subject most will know nothing about? :facepalm:

You may as well be their chemistry teacher because 'some of your mates have used chemicals and they told you about their experience'...:innocent:

Anecdotal evidence (of which this thread is full of..) is for people who believe in astrology and homeopathy and should stay the fuck away from education. :yes:

Its better than your kids being fed lies and propaganda from the schools and government 'just say no' campaigns.
If you can't be fucked getting the facts then your kids are pretty fucked anyway, pretty much anything taught to me by my parents stuck with me, far better than what was taught by teachers, feed to me by the government etc..

Sure you shouldn't teach your kids something you don't know about, so if you think it's important do the research. How important is chemistry to the general population.

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Fergus

2nd April 2013, 17:59

Homeopathy was 50/50 patient wise with alopathic medicine at the turn of the 1900's
the Queen mother is a big fan of homeopathy
vaccines use similar processes as homeopathy
astrology is a very old science that was synonymous with science for thousands of years
something is now dumbing you down

I agree the ignorant should stay the fuck away from education, thanks
anecdotal evidence is some of the best around
when clues are needed first

:facepalm:

I take medical advice from medical professionals not royalty.

Vaccination has nothing in common with homeopathy, one is based on science, one is not.

Something doesn't become true simply because it is old. astrology was and always will be pseudo science.

Education has dumbed me down to the point where I apply rationale and critical thought to everything. I have become too 'ignorant' to believe claims that aren't logical, rational, empirical, repeatable etc etc(ie reached via scientific method) and now I can barely believe anything! :shit:

Anecdotal evidence is not 'some of the best around', it is literally the opposite of scientific evidence:

anecdotal
adjective /ˌæn.ɪkˈdəʊ.təl/ /-ˈdoʊ.t̬əl/

Definition
› describes information that is not based on facts or careful study:

Mushu

2nd April 2013, 18:02

considered, that, maybe no-one's arguing the point?

I think it's a pretty major point, and to date not a single person is able to give an intelligent argument against it. ignoring the facts - that's the reason we have these problems in the first place. People need to be responsible for themselves and not push their values on others the police should have better things to do.

If you go back far enough, some of us would have been burned at the stake for being atheist, these days my biggest worry is the cops finding my stash (I usually buy an ounce at a time which is more than enough for a distribution charge and a decent stint in jail)

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Akzle

2nd April 2013, 18:37

Nah cos I'll haunt them... I'm that stubborn. All kidding aside, isn't parenting supposed to be the voice of reason one hears in times of trials.

Meh... Hope floats eh.
voice of reason eh? maybe someone should have told me before i put my penis inside my kids' mother.

by your standards, this wont end well.

I think it's a pretty major point, and to date not a single person is able to give an intelligent argument against it.

these days my biggest worry is the cops finding my stash (I usually buy an ounce at a time which is more than enough for a distribution charge and a decent stint in jail)

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

1) i don't think you get it. people agree, so they are not arguing, so shut the fuck up.

2) hide it in the roof, the dogs can't smell it and unless they have a warrant or "reasonable grounds" they have no lawful search (it wont stop them doing it, or taking it, and given your attitude, kicking your head in)

3) deny. deny. deny.
the cops need to prove ten kinds of shit. 1- you knew you had it 2- you knew what it was 3-you had it unlawfully

so, PO turns up and asks you "is this yours" answer is "i reserve my right to silence, i do not consent to any of this tomfuckery, akzle is the fucking man, get off my property", cop asks "what's this?" your answer is " looks like herbal tea, cunt face", cop asks "well, how come you have it" your answer is "i found it and was going to hand it in to the police station tomorow"

charges are fucking hilarious. cops are fucking useless.

you have a bad attitude (calling them pigs, ie) which doesn't win the day. and noone gives a fuck what phone you have. dickhead.

sent from an unpretentious PC while smoking a doobie and jerking it to naturaljapaneses.net

jonbuoy

2nd April 2013, 18:37

mashman

2nd April 2013, 18:57

Neither you nor I will ever know, for we haven't got enough info. It could have been any number of things: a girl involved, pressure from a different study dynamic, newfound freedom from parents, or all of the above combined.

But just attributing it to one factor would be overly simplistic. I grew up between a "hippyish meditation adept" mother, and a "catholic raised, extremely strict" father. She let me get away with murder, he had me followed by my uncle who was a cop... Long story short, I was predicted to end up a junkie or a whore because I was rebellious and I liked to have a good time at 16.

You don't know, nobody does. People end up what they are and how they are, partly due to outside influences sure... But mostly because of their own choices, of who they are on the inside. Drugs are but one of those choices in my view.

I trust in my kids to be intelligent enough to make the right call in the future. They'll make mistakes of course, and I'll be there to pick up the pieces, always.

I agree. It's as simple as time, place, make decision. Good experience possibly spurring one on to other things. Bad experience possibly spurring one on to other things. As ya say, the best we can do is educate and hope like hell that they make relatively sensible decisions... and failing that, at least be there to point the finger, have a good laugh at them, then hug the buggas back to life.

Akzle

2nd April 2013, 18:58

I cant see recreational drugs ever being sold and packaged legally. Too much liability for the seller and the government. Decriminalising is probably the way to go. Spend the wasted money and police time elsewhere. Problem is someone is going to still make money - if drug dealing was completely decriminalised whats to stop someone hanging round the school gates offering them out openly? What's to stop people openly jacking up? Snorting lines in a restaurant next to you? Or would it only be legal to do so in your own home?

well, i'm still here.

who gives a fuck? do serious drug users really want to sit in a restaurant snorting coke? maybe. maybe not, either way, the great capitalist enterprise will facilitate it (do you want the coking or non-coking section, sir)

the thing about being in public, is that it's public, ie, as a (supposed) citizen, you own it. noone has the right to infringe on your rights in public, and you have a duty not to impose on anyone elses.

if it were legalised, as you state, retailers would (no doubt) need a license, sales outside schools would probably be illegal, as is selling booze within X00 meters of a school, or out of your boot.

and who cares, really? if somoene wants to sit next to you on a bus trying to pin themselves, do you actually care so much? (if yes, why?!) (who the fuck takes the bus?)

factoid: prohibition does not work
solutionoid: let darwin reign

Madness

2nd April 2013, 19:01

if drug dealing was completely decriminalised whats to stop someone hanging round the school gates offering them out openly? What's to stop people openly jacking up? Snorting lines in a restaurant next to you? Or would it only be legal to do so in your own home?

Last time you were here in NZ did you notice people sitting outside schools selling alcohol? You also don't see people lighting cigarettes in restaurants here any more so it's pretty unlikely you'll ever see people snorting cocaine between courses.

mashman

2nd April 2013, 19:05

I cant see recreational drugs ever being sold and packaged legally.

I believe you can still get K2 legally.

Last time you were here in NZ did you notice people sitting outside schools selling alcohol? You also don't see people lighting cigarettes in restaurants here any more so it's pretty unlikely you'll ever see people snorting cocaine between courses.

That's what the powder room is for ain't it?

Madness

2nd April 2013, 19:07

That's what the powder room is for ain't it?

I wouldn't know, I use the mens.

jonbuoy

2nd April 2013, 19:11

So your saying it needs to be legalised but with limitations? Ie not injecting,snorting,smoking in public places? What about a legal age for different classes?

mashman

2nd April 2013, 19:18

I wouldn't know, I use the mens.

Urine the wrong place

Fergus

2nd April 2013, 19:38

Its better than your kids being fed lies and propaganda from the schools and government 'just say no' campaigns.
If you can't be fucked getting the facts then your kids are pretty fucked anyway, pretty much anything taught to me by my parents stuck with me, far better than what was taught by teachers, feed to me by the government etc..

Sure you shouldn't teach your kids something you don't know about, so if you think it's important do the research. How important is chemistry to the general population.

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If you believe schools feed your children lies and propaganda why would you let them go there?? :confused:

My (anecdotal :msn-wink: ) experience with high school drug education was positive (public school, 14 yrs ago) they stated the risks and effects of many illegal and legal drugs in plain english. They stated that alcohol posed a much greater risk to harm than most illegal drugs. We were pretty much told 'ecstasy, LSD and magic mushrooms are the safest recreational drugs, be safe kids'.

It certainly was not a "just say no" campaign. It was just "the facts".

As for chemistry...
All health degrees and nearly all science and engineering degrees require 100 level chemistry.

A few quotes to show the scale and importance of chemical processes:

""In 1998, the total annual direct cost of corrosion in the U.S. was ca. $276 billion (ca. 3.2% of the US gross domestic product).[7]""

(the % of GDP is similar for all developed countries)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion

""3–5% of the world's natural gas production is consumed in the Haber process (~1–2% of the world's annual energy supply).[2][14][15][16] That fertilizer is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population,""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

jonbuoy

2nd April 2013, 19:58

I believe you can still get K2 legally.

That's what the powder room is for ain't it?

Would you want to see a major pharmaceutical companies or government departments start producing and distributing drugs? What if they start developing new drugs, great high, no low, ability to function normally, very addictive and very expensive? Is that a change you would like to see?

mashman

2nd April 2013, 20:51

Would you want to see a major pharmaceutical companies or government departments start producing and distributing drugs? What if they start developing new drugs, great high, no low, ability to function normally, very addictive and very expensive? Is that a change you would like to see?

To what end? There's already a manufacturing and distribution network in place so it would seem silly to try to replace it with some other legal entity. In regards to available drugs. Absofuckinlutely. Pump the worst shit you can imagine into the community and it may well have different results than the ones you'd imagine. Nothin better than watchin people drop dead in the streets to get the message across... if you're after a deterrent that is.

scissorhands

2nd April 2013, 21:37

Would you want to see a major pharmaceutical companies or government departments start producing and distributing drugs? What if they start developing new drugs, great high, no low, ability to function normally, very addictive and very expensive? Is that a change you would like to see?

There will always be demand for different spice. Fashions will change, tastes will change. Many new compounds will be discovered. Many old forgotten favourites will be rediscovered. Saffron tinctures may become all the rage

Power plants are more of a hindrance for most, and after a time lose their appeal to the balance. Ethnobotanical types will always be in the minority. Mostly these types are writers and artists, designers and craftsmen, druids and herbalists

007XX

2nd April 2013, 22:28

by your standards, this wont end well.

And pray tell, what do you perceive my standards to be? I'm genuinely curious.

Fergus

2nd April 2013, 22:38

Would you want to see a major pharmaceutical companies or government departments start producing and distributing drugs? What if they start developing new drugs, great high, no low, ability to function normally, very addictive and very expensive? Is that a change you would like to see?

You've just described many prescription drugs. ever wondered why you can't buy them over the counter?

I would like to see recreational drugs go through the same regulatory requirements that pharmaceuticals go through.

Get all the shitty speedy acid and dud pills off the market. :yes:

Mushu

3rd April 2013, 02:00

1) i don't think you get it. people agree, so they are not arguing, so shut the fuck up.

2) hide it in the roof, the dogs can't smell it and unless they have a warrant or "reasonable grounds" they have no lawful search (it wont stop them doing it, or taking it, and given your attitude, kicking your head in)

3) deny. deny. deny.
the cops need to prove ten kinds of shit. 1- you knew you had it 2- you knew what it was 3-you had it unlawfully

so, PO turns up and asks you "is this yours" answer is "i reserve my right to silence, i do not consent to any of this tomfuckery, akzle is the fucking man, get off my property", cop asks "what's this?" your answer is " looks like herbal tea, cunt face", cop asks "well, how come you have it" your answer is "i found it and was going to hand it in to the police station tomorow"

charges are fucking hilarious. cops are fucking useless.

you have a bad attitude (calling them pigs, ie) which doesn't win the day. and noone gives a fuck what phone you have. dickhead.

sent from an unpretentious PC while smoking a doobie and jerking it to naturaljapaneses.net

1) I know you agree with me dickhead I was fishing for a response from the likes of 007xx or scumdog

2) that's what my old flatmates thought and they wound up getting done for everything (except the cops couldn't figure out what the pvc pipe, coffee filters and butane were for, our the big bag of glucose powder in the freezer) trust me, if they bring in the dogs there's not much you can do to hide it in a space as small as a house

3) maybe, if you have a top lawyer, but even then I don't like your chances, if they need to the cops will often just lie or "find" some evidence

I can say what I think (calling them pigs) on the internet, I highly doubt scumdog is going to do anything about it. face to face you have to be a bit more diplomatic but my attitude stems from several encounters with overzealous pigs who care more about another win than about morality or helping people (I have never even been in handcuffs myself) they have never been of any benefit to me, twice I have been robbed and handed them the prick who did it on a silver platter, once they lied and told my they raided their houses, and once they lied and used it as an excuse to put my (the victim) prints on file (NSW police) and several other encounters.

Bring out the most dangerous drugs known to man and let Darwin sort it out

Sent from my shitty phone just to fuck with akzl (by the way i own that whole sent from my... thing. Look on any ranting thread on Kb and you'll see it whether I've posted there on not it's become something of a meme, all because I'm too lazy to erase the factory signature thing, I'm quite proud actually) and in case you're wondering xt535 is really Motorola defy, a pretty shit phone actually, but it is tough.

jonbuoy

3rd April 2013, 03:51

You've just described many prescription drugs. ever wondered why you can't buy them over the counter?

I would like to see recreational drugs go through the same regulatory requirements that pharmaceuticals go through.

Get all the shitty speedy acid and dud pills off the market. :yes:

Erm because I'm not a Doctor and should probably make sure I get some advice before randomly taking medication?

Regulatory requirements? Unless there was some medical benefit to taking drugs they wont get passed. All medicines have side effects generally the stronger the medication the bigger the side effects. People only take them because they have to and because the side effects are a lesser evil than the disease/illness.

-Akzle your not doing the legalise drugs campaign any favours with your posts recently.

scissorhands

3rd April 2013, 05:44

3rd leading cause of death in NZ is medical misadventure.....
My doctor wanted me to take an SSRI shortly after a moderate head knock and concussion:facepalm:

Brainless fucktard!

scumdog

3rd April 2013, 07:52

[QUOTE=Akzle;1130524435
2) hide it in the roof, the dogs can't smell it and unless they have a warrant or "reasonable grounds" they have no lawful search (it wont stop them doing it, or taking it, and given your attitude, kicking your head in)

[/QUOTE]

Right up to date with the Search and Surviellance Act eh???

Fergus

3rd April 2013, 09:43

Erm because I'm not a Doctor and should probably make sure I get some advice before randomly taking medication?

Because addictive (prescription) drugs aren't made freely available for obvious reasons.

Regulatory requirements? Unless there was some medical benefit to taking drugs they wont get passed. All medicines have side effects generally the stronger the medication the bigger the side effects. People only take them because they have to and because the side effects are a lesser evil than the disease/illness.

Heard of Viagra? Is an erection a medical benefit? Does anyone need an erection?
Weight loss drugs?

There are already drugs available for personal pleasure/choice.
Many recreational drugs have proven medicinal uses.

They should all be treated and controlled in the same way.

SMOKEU

3rd April 2013, 14:48

Akzle

3rd April 2013, 16:21

If you believe schools feed your children lies and propaganda why would you let them go there?? :confused:
i don't. unfortunately the ex has more say than i do, for varying reasons, not least of which, for the next 5-20 years, i can say "i told you so" :D

(if it were up to me, my kids would not be in a public school, or a private school, or anywhere lese with an agenda)

Would you want to see a major pharmaceutical companies or government departments start producing and distributing drugs? What if they start developing new drugs, great high, no low, ability to function normally, very addictive and very expensive? Is that a change you would like to see?
yeah, the other guy got it: that's all the "psychopharmaceuticals" they have that allow people with "ADD" and "anxiety" to "function normally" on a day to day basis.

plus - equilibrium.

And pray tell, what do you perceive my standards to be? I'm genuinely curious.
:

isn't parenting supposed to be the voice of reason

1) I know you agree with me dickhead I was fishing for a response from the likes of 007xx or scumdog

2) that's what my old flatmates thought and they wound up getting done for everything

3) maybe, if you have a top lawyer, but even then I don't like your chances, if they need to the cops will often just lie or "find" some evidence

I can say what I think (calling them pigs) on the internet, I highly doubt scumdog is going to do anything about it. face to face you have to be a bit more diplomatic

but my attitude stems from several encounters with overzealous pigs who care more about another win than about morality or helping people

and once they lied and used it as an excuse to put my (the victim) prints on file (NSW police) and several other encounters.

Bring out the most dangerous drugs known to man and let Darwin sort it out

(by the way i own that whole sent from my... thing. ...it's become something of a meme, all because I'm ... I'm quite proud actually)

Motorola defy, a pretty shit phone actually, but it is tough.
dickhead for dickhead eh, try not to hurt either of your braincells too much next time you knock them together.

1)maybe 007 and scummy agree, too, on account of i think it's fairly well accepted as fact.

2) your old flatmates were stupid.

3) you don't need a top lawyer, you just need to make life a pain in the ass, if the cost of carrying a case forward is more than the perceived benefit, you generally get brushed aside fairly quietly. but of course if you're walking through pulling the fingers and saying "fuck pigs" they like to make an example of you. they're small people, with big sticks to beat you.

4) for my sake, i'd love to watch him taser your, and by your own admission, he can "find" some evidence to justify it. hell i'll be a disinterested third party witness.

5) whoop dee fuck, i can almost -almost- guarantee i've had more to do with the crown policy enforcers than you have.

6) that would be "for exclusionary purposes" you're fucking silly. they still don't have my prints, and i haven't been in handcuffs for the last decade or so, which is odd, since my stance towards them is somewhat more "fuck off" ish now.

7) i think i get the point for that one, mentioning darwin first.

8) yes. oh shit yes. i bow down to you, you meme creator. (like fuck you were)

9) because a tough guy needs a tough phone, right?

All medicines have side effects generally the stronger the medication the bigger the side effects.

-Akzle your not doing the legalise drugs campaign any favours with your posts recently.
i'm not campaigning for shit, i'm'a do what the hell i want, and that includes take drugs.

b) NO drugs have side effects.

all drugs have effects. some are wanted, some are not. calling them side effects is like calling death a side effect of life.

Right up to date with the Search and Surviellance Act eh???
no, not at all, please don't tell me i was wrong. :eek2:
that's some 2010 shit though, innit?

...now i'm'a have to download and read it for next time i meet one of you swine. thanks asshole.

Mushu

4th April 2013, 12:53

Akzl, your retardness is so daunting, I won't even try cover it all in one post.

keeping your kids out of school is not a good answer, they need most of the education that school provides as well as interaction with other kids the same age. The best idea I can see is to teach your kids to be critical of what they are taught and do further research before they take these things for granted.

Skipping through your above post, your proud if your run ins with the police and that you have been in trouble more than me.... Good luck with that, I take pride in the fact I've never been in cuffs, but it's my morality that keeps my noise clean, not a blind belief the law.

I especially like how you berate me for using the term "pigs" in reference to the police and then continue on to call them swine, good form.

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

Akzle

4th April 2013, 13:28

keeping your kids out of school is not a good answer, they need most of the education that school provides as well as interaction with other kids the same age. The best idea I can see is to teach your kids to be critical of what they are taught and do further research before they take these things for granted.

Skipping through your above post, your proud if your run ins with the police and that you have been in trouble more than me.... Good luck with that, I take pride in the fact I've never been in cuffs, but it's my morality that keeps my noise clean, not a blind belief the law.

I especially like how you berate me for using the term "pigs" in reference to the police and then continue on to call them swine, good form.

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

1) depends what the question is.
you're confusing schooling and education.

2) i am somewhat proud of the result of several interactions, though i'd much rather they didn't try in the first place.
i have no "blind belief in the law" just a fairly comprehensive understanding of NZ legislation etc.
ie, i beat them at their own game.
i rank my morals higher than yours. my IQ, too.

3) i was talking to scummy, not you. keep your pretentious rugged snout out of it.

Mushu

4th April 2013, 16:59

1) depends what the question is.
you're confusing schooling and education.

2) i am somewhat proud of the result of several interactions, though i'd much rather they didn't try in the first place.
i have no "blind belief in the law" just a fairly comprehensive understanding of NZ legislation etc.
ie, i beat them at their own game.
i rank my morals higher than yours. my IQ, too.

3) i was talking to scummy, not you. keep your pretentious rugged snout out of it.

1) you said school, public, private or anywhere else with an agenda. Then infer I'm wrong when I point out that keeping your kids out of school it's a bad idea.

2) I don't care where you rank your morals, all I'm saying is I judge my actions on morality rather than the law. Given that I have fewer run inns with the police (outside of traffic offenses) just based on my morality it would tend to suggest my morals are stronger than yours. And anytime someone claims to be smarter than everybody in my experience they tend to be the dumbest in the group.

3) it's because you were talking to scumdog that made it funny I called him a pig and you berated me for it and went on to say you'd like to watch a cop taze me then called him a pig in the same post, I'm sorry but to me thats fucking funny

All of this is so far off topic it's insane. Given that my position re: drugs is the same as yours (legalise everything) I'm guessing you're just looking for an argument, it was fun but I'm bored of it now.

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Akzle

4th April 2013, 18:16

1) you said school, public, private or anywhere else with an agenda. Then infer I'm wrong when I point out that keeping your kids out of school it's a bad idea.

2) I don't care where you rank your morals, all I'm saying is I judge my actions on morality rather than the law. Given that I have fewer run inns with the police (outside of traffic offenses) just based on my morality it would tend to suggest my morals are stronger than yours. And anytime someone claims to be smarter than everybody in my experience they tend to be the dumbest in the group.

3) it's because you were talking to scumdog that made it funny I called him a pig and you berated me for it and went on to say you'd like to watch a cop taze me then called him a pig in the same post, I'm sorry but to me thats fucking funny

All of this is so far off topic it's insane. Given that my position re: drugs is the same as yours (legalise everything) I'm guessing you're just looking for an argument, it was fun but I'm bored of it now.

Sent from my XT535 using Tapatalk 2

1)i said school, you said "the education that school..." i said "you're confusing education and schooling"

somewhere along the line, you fell off the logic train.

2) i don't think we're arguing on this, except that i'm better than you.

3) you called pigs pigs, based on their gainful employment. i called scum puppy swine and asshole, scum puppy an' me, we go a ways back, he knows the score, and i'd still be giving evidence on his side at caught.

4)off topic?? there is no topic. this is KB.

Send from the bacon factory while eating donuts.