Whoops! Bugger!

[Lou Girardin]

It seems that the 'accidental' shooting the Brazilian man,Menezes, in London was anything but.
Statements from Police Officer witnesses and CCTV video stills leaked to the press show that the Commissioners original statement was a pack of lies.
Menezes was not wearing heavy clothing.
He was not running, except for a few metres on the platform to catch a train.
He was not challenged by the cops.
He was selected because "he resembled one of the wanted bombers"
He sat down in the carriage, was grabbed in a bear hug by one Officer and held down in the seat while another shot him in the head.
Is there a worldwide convention among Police forces that Senior Officers must lie through their teeth when they fuck up?

[ManDownUnder]

It seems that the 'accidental' shooting the Brazilian man,Menezes, in London was anything but.
Statements from Police Officer witnesses and CCTV video stills leaked to the press show that the Commissioners original statement was a pack of lies.
Menezes was not wearing heavy clothing.
He was not running, except for a few metres on the platform to catch a train.
He was not challenged by the cops.
He was selected because "he resembled one of the wanted bombers"
He sat down in the carriage, was grabbed in a bear hug by one Officer and held down in the seat while another shot him in the head.
Is there a worldwide convention among Police forces that Senior Officers must lie through their teeth when they fuck up?

It sounds like you're more concerned about the guy that lost his life than the image of the Police force... and possibly the careers of those involved.

Good on ya!

[placidfemme]

It seems that the 'accidental' shooting the Brazilian man,Menezes, in London was anything but.
Statements from Police Officer witnesses and CCTV video stills leaked to the press show that the Commissioners original statement was a pack of lies.
Menezes was not wearing heavy clothing.
He was not running, except for a few metres on the platform to catch a train.
He was not challenged by the cops.
He was selected because "he resembled one of the wanted bombers"
He sat down in the carriage, was grabbed in a bear hug by one Officer and held down in the seat while another shot him in the head.Is there a worldwide convention among Police forces that Senior Officers must lie through their teeth when they fuck up?

Holy crap! I wanted to watch that on the news but got distracted... is that what happened? Bastards!

[MSTRS]

I didn't see the article but I would question why this 'truth' took so long to come out. After all, it did take place rather publicly.

[Sniper]

You look after your own. Enough said.

[James Deuce]

Bear in mind that these guys are defending their own citizens just days after 50+ were killed while using one of the world's best public transport systems. It is understandable that they made a mistake. I have a life long friend who lives in London and his wife has been a Metropolitan cop for a year. She was first on scene at Liverpool St station. She's having a break from work at the moment, but said that it is standard operating procedure to "eliminate" a suspected terrorist instantly. The SOP for the Press conference wasn't followed, in that they are supposed to admit screw ups immediately. Some Superintendant will be taking early retirement no doubt.

The thing that springs to mind for me is: Don't fuck with Great Britain.

It's really sad for the guy that died, and for his family. Unfortunately it will, and should be, viewed as "collateral damage".

For those of you who don't cope very well with the concept, British Bomber Command in WWII set their sights on killing as many German civilians as possible. 75 Sqn (RNZAF) was very good at that job. The German high command did the same in Russia, and the Japanese in "Manchukuo" (Sack of Nanking anyone?). There are no good guys in war. Problem is we ahave a media that is only too willing to milk that for all it is worth.

[Lou Girardin]

Bear in mind that these guys are defending their own citizens just days after 50+ were killed while using one of the world's best public transport systems. It is understandable that they made a mistake. I have a life long friend who lives in London and his wife has been a Metropolitan cop for a year. She was first on scene at Liverpool St station. She's having a break from work at the moment, but said that it is standard operating procedure to "eliminate" a suspected terrorist instantly. The SOP for the Press conference wasn't followed, in that they are supposed to admit screw ups immediately. Some Superintendant will be taking early retirement no doubt.

The thing that springs to mind for me is: Don't fuck with Great Britain.

It's really sad for the guy that died, and for his family. Unfortunately it will, and should be, viewed as "collateral damage".

For those of you who don't cope very well with the concept, British Bomber Command in WWII set their sights on killing as many German civilians as possible. 75 Sqn (RNZAF) was very good at that job. The German high command did the same in Russia, and the Japanese in "Manchukuo" (Sack of Nanking anyone?). There are no good guys in war. Problem is we ahave a media that is only too willing to milk that for all it is worth.


What you say was accepted by nearly everyone when the original police statement was issued and that was fair. This is far from "collateral" damage.
This new evidence, which is from the Police themselves, show that they had almost no reason to stop him, let alone kill him, and then to lie about it is beyond the pale.
Your opinion seems to condone indiscriminate killing.

BTW. Despite what George Dubya says, this is not a war. So references to a global war seem irrelevant, unless you think that a few nukes dropped in the Middle east is the answer to terrorism.

[placidfemme]

What you say was accepted by nearly everyone when the original police statement was issued and that was fair. This is far from "collateral" damage.
This new evidence, which is from the Police themselves, show that they had almost no reason to stop him, let alone kill him, and then to lie about it is beyond the pale.
Your opinion seems to condone indiscriminate killing.

Exactly... if the one cop had him in a "bear hug" then what need was there to shoot him in the head? Just because he meet the description of the previous bombers... what a load of crap... so should we go out and kill al muslins because they "may" or "may not" be terrorists... crap

[onearmedbandit]

Couldn't believe it when I heard the report on the news last night. Fucking disgusting.

And anyone who says otherwise ie London on high alert, city in panic, etc, should think how they would feel having their brother/father/son killed because he wanted to catch a subway.......

An innocent man died for no reason here people, lets remember that.

[placidfemme]

Couldn't believe it when I heard the report on the news last night. Fucking disgusting.

And anyone who says otherwise ie London on high alert, city in panic, etc, should think how they would feel having their brother/father/son killed because he wanted to catch a subway.......

An innocent man died for no reason here people, lets remember that.

yeah who needs terrorists with a police force like that...

[Wolf]

According to the report I saw, he stood to leave and was grabbed in the bear-hug, forcibly shoved back into the seat and subsequently shot, the pics showed him in a pale blue shell-jacket - not padded at all - and blood all over the seat area.

Bit of a far cry from being gunned down in flight...

[James Deuce]

Your opinion seems to condone indiscriminate killing.



Thanks a lot Lou. I actually like you and I thought you could read. It is a war. It is indiscriminate on both sides. There are no good guys and no right and wrong. The war is being fought at a cultural and social level, and the physical violence is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome.

[Wolf]

yeah who needs terrorists with a police force like that...
That reminds me of Denzel Washington's stirring speech in The Seige - when he's saying that maybe the terrorists want everyone so paranoid that they start removing basic human rights from the citizens - "in that case, they've already won".

I thought pretty much the same thing when the dust of the Twin Towers was still settling and the US_GOV_CORP was putting out "would you put up with the loss of personal liberties to prevent this ever happening again?" feelers to the general public. Dunno what the public at large answered, personally, but US_GOV_CORP seems to have taken it as a "Yes"...

Now so has Britain's gummint/LE community, 'twould seem...

[sAsLEX]

British Bomber Command in WWII set their sights on killing as many German civilians as possible. 75 Sqn (RNZAF) was very good at that job..

met one of those men at a shidig for that Prince guy that came over a while back, talking to these war heros was brilliant with their DFC's and other big awards was amazing. ONe guy had something like 50 missions over germany before he was shot down

[Lou Girardin]

Thanks a lot Lou. I actually like you and I thought you could read. It is a war. It is indiscriminate on both sides. There are no good guys and no right and wrong. The war is being fought at a cultural and social level, and the physical violence is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome.

As you can guess, I disagree. As do many of those who have actually dealt with terrorism in Europe in the 60's and 70's.
It's not a war, because there isn't a combatant state on the other side. You cannot declare war on a noun.
Georgy's 'war' has not caught Bin Laden remember.
The successful campaigns against the Red Brigade, Bader Meinhof, various US 'liberation' groups were carried out as anti-crime actions.
The greatest successes against the IRA were tracking down and arresting or eliminating the action cells.
Using investigative techniques to identify and deal with the terrorists proved much more effective than the US's current tactics of alienating most of the world's Muslims by indiscriminate killing or "collateral" damage.
Every dead innocent Iraqi creates another terrorist, ergo the US can't win. A view that they themselves are now taking, although they don't say as much. Instead they say that they are "adjusting their expectations for Iraq to a more achievable level".

[mikey]

is iraqs destruction, 30,000 dead an counting, collateral damage jim?

a few not even a hundred dead in london, an there already onto killing civilians?

doesnt tally up mate , i get the picture dont fuck with england, but that type of attitude pushes "terrorist" further
a lot of deadly deadly briefcase (nuke of some type) bombs went missing at end of from russia in late 1900s, terrosits + money = nuke + london / washington = revenge!

im for the freedom fighters (terrorist included)

[James Deuce]

As you can guess, I disagree. As do many of those who have actually dealt with terrorism in Europe in the 60's and 70's.
It's not a war, because there isn't a combatant state on the other side. You cannot declare war on a noun.
Georgy's 'war' has not caught Bin Laden remember.
The successful campaigns against the Red Brigade, Bader Meinhof, various US 'liberation' groups were carried out as anti-crime actions.
The greatest successes against the IRA were tracking down and arresting or eliminating the action cells.
Using investigative techniques to identify and deal with the terrorists proved much more effective than the US's current tactics of alienating most of the world's Muslims by indiscriminate killing or "collateral" damage.
Every dead innocent Iraqi creates another terrorist, ergo the US can't win. A view that they themselves are now taking, although they don't say as much. Instead they say that they are "adjusting their expectations for Iraq to a more achievable level".

George Bush, religion, and terrorism are irrelevant to the the "war" I'm talking about. There is far too much staring at the symptoms and not enough effort in examining the cause and solution. We're not on the same page, and I haven't proffered any insults. My previous post discussed facts, not opinions. The motivations and language used to describe "Humanity" need to change, the post-modern "revolution" needs to be undone, and socialist capitalism (a la the STNG universe) needs to be examined and defined as something other than lefty fantasy.

We need a global Marshall plan.

[James Deuce]

is iraqs destruction, 30,000 dead an counting, collateral damage jim?

a few not even a hundred dead in london, an there already onto killing civilians?

doesnt tally up mate , i get the picture dont fuck with england, but that type of attitude pushes "terrorist" further
a lot of deadly deadly briefcase (nuke of some type) bombs went missing at end of from russia in late 1900s, terrosits + money = nuke + london / washington = revenge!

im for the freedom fighters (terrorist included)

You've misunderstood as well. I'm not cold-hearted, blood thirsty or an advocate of war. I have tremendous respect for WWII veterans, any war veterans for that matter. Most of the ones I have met have been substantially more "human" than I am.

I've posted at length on this site about my views in regard to the current situation in Iraq. It is nothing more than economic terrorism. But obviously a man is only as good as his last post.

I'm deeply dfisappointed that people have been unable to see that all I've done is researched the policy from someone who was on the ground in London, and pointed out that you cannot use war to define the good guys or the bad guys.

The issue that is causing deaths all over the world since the Industrial revolution and the Late Imperial/Colonial phase in human history has an utterly amoral root and doesn't care a whit about good or evil. It is simply our attitudes towards each other on one level and our utter contempt for history coupled with a profound inability to learn from it that has lead to the current problems and this very discussion.

[mikey]

defintitly only as good as your last post (cant find a suitable smiley, where have they gone???) no i interepreted your last post there to mean that his killing was justified,
an i only skim read your post, an i dont know as much about the war, wars ,

but

[Lou Girardin]

You've misunderstood as well. I'm not cold-hearted, blood thirsty or an advocate of war. I have tremendous respect for WWII veterans, any war veterans for that matter. Most of the ones I have met have been substantially more "human" than I am.

I've posted at length on this site about my views in regard to the current situation in Iraq. It is nothing more than economic terrorism. But obviously a man is only as good as his last post.

I'm deeply dfisappointed that people have been unable to see that all I've done is researched the policy from someone who was on the ground in London, and pointed out that you cannot use war to define the good guys or the bad guys.

The issue that is causing deaths all over the world since the Industrial revolution and the Late Imperial/Colonial phase in human history has an utterly amoral root and doesn't care a whit about good or evil. It is simply our attitudes towards each other on one level and our utter contempt for history coupled with a profound inability to learn from it that has lead to the current problems and this very discussion.


This, I agree with.
But your original post was something else.

[scumdog]

It was a f...-up, why are you all not complaining about all the other 'innocents' killed in wars?
Oh, you forgot that this is a 'war' in London??? Brought there by the 'nice' people from the middle-east?

I blame the faulty training. (well, nobody else takes responsibilty for THEIR SCREW-UPS)

[James Deuce]

This, I agree with.
But your original post was something else.

No it wasn't.

[Pixie]

It seems that the 'accidental' shooting the Brazilian man,Menezes, in London was anything but.
Statements from Police Officer witnesses and CCTV video stills leaked to the press show that the Commissioners original statement was a pack of lies.
Menezes was not wearing heavy clothing.
He was not running, except for a few metres on the platform to catch a train.
He was not challenged by the cops.
He was selected because "he resembled one of the wanted bombers"
He sat down in the carriage, was grabbed in a bear hug by one Officer and held down in the seat while another shot him in the head.
Is there a worldwide convention among Police forces that Senior Officers must lie through their teeth when they fuck up?
Yep,and all applicants obviously have to meet the same IQ level

[Lias]

Is there a worldwide convention among Police forces that Senior Officers must lie through their teeth when they fuck up?

It's the same in ANY brotherhood. Police, armed forces, terrorist groups, hell even gangs. These people face situations where they NEED to know that they can rely on their comrades to be covering their backs, and its only natural that this flows on from the field into the office.

[750Y]

The thing that springs to mind for me is: Don't fuck with Great Britain.

It seems they already did, & now they're rolling on the floor laughing.
The so-called 'war against terrorism' will not be won with a gun. it will be won with a handshake.

[Lou Girardin]

It seems they already did, & now they're rolling on the floor laughing.
The so-called 'war against terrorism' will not be won with a gun. it will be won with a handshake.

Careful, that's far too rational. But it seems to work.

[Ramius]

I was discussing this yesterday, and if this were America the guy was shot in
A.) There would be no video tape, or there would be a video 'randomly' show up showing exactly to a T what the police said.
B.) He would be a Muslim fundamentalist
C.) He would have confronted the police, the switch in one hand, the Q'oran in the other hand spouting words from it.
D.) It was not a police officer he was sitting next to, but a little old catholic lady!

:violin:

[SARGE]

I was discussing this yesterday, and if this were America the guy was shot in
A.) There would be no video tape, or there would be a video 'randomly' show up showing exactly to a T what the police said.
B.) He would be a Muslim fundamentalist
C.) He would have confronted the police, the switch in one hand, the Q'oran in the other hand spouting words from it.
D.) It was not a police officer he was sitting next to, but a little old catholic lady!

:violin:

and
E) he wouldnt have been shot just once..but riddled with 9mm rounds

american and brit troops are trained to take the headshot in situations like this.. no use risking a last gasp button push

[Ramius]

and
E) he wouldnt have been shot just once..but riddled with 9mm rounds

american and brit troops are trained to take the headshot in situations like this.. no use risking a last gasp button push

See, I find that funny, because, there is one portion of the brain if hit will cause the sudden clenching reflex causing the button push. But, I just don't get why they don't use dead man triggers. You know the type, where if they release the tension, Kaboom...Which, consequently is the name of an Afghan holiday.

[Lou Girardin]

and
E) he wouldnt have been shot just once..but riddled with 9mm rounds


Mr Menezes was. Eight, count 'em, eight rounds. 7 in the head, 1 in the shoulder.

[Wolf]

I thought the original report (the one when he was wearing the padded jacket and running away from the cops) said he had been shot only 5 times in the head.

[SPman]

Semantics - 5 rounds, 8 rounds who cares - they blew his head apart!
The terrorists won, the day the US went into Afghanistan - all the rest is quibbling, power playing, posturing, mindless bullshit!

[Pathos]

too true,

at the end of the day its just one guy who shouldn't have been given a gun had one.