The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey [Archive]

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HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 09:43

Banditbandit

16th April 2013, 09:47

Yes. I agree. All the usually bullshit rhetoric of the right has come out in support fo the Government spying on New Zealanders ...

And plenty of fuckers will buy this shit - and Donkey's popularity is likely to increase !!!

(Evil Triumphs ...)

MisterD

16th April 2013, 09:51

If that last statement is true, are terrirists using powdered milk instead of C4? electric fence controllers instead of detonators? Maybe sheeps wool instead of wire.

My immediate thought was "Rakon", after all we know from their Marketing Director's flappy gob that their stuff is in US smart munitions.

If GCSB has an ability to be a) a cyber security consultant to NZ companies and agencies and b) a technical assist when another agency such as SIS or the Police has a warrant, then I'm ok with that.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 09:58

My immediate thought was "Rakon", after all we know from their Marketing Director's flappy gob that their stuff is in US smart munitions.

If GCSB has an ability to be a) a cyber security consultant to NZ companies and agencies and b) a technical assist when another agency such as SIS or the Police has a warrant, then I'm ok with that.

no civilian oversight, the awful "old boys" club, the very shallow pond that is NuZillin: yeah, good luck with that. This paternalistic bullshit and lies do not fly.

I hate Nicky Hager as well (he has a girls name for starters) but the fucker just might have a point.

ellipsis

16th April 2013, 10:10

mashman

16th April 2013, 10:51

:Pokey:

...Righto, all you blue blooded, Thatcherite fucks...line up, three ranks, right of the marker...moove...

... you commie, pinko, Scargillite scum, have an early lunch, come back late...bring banners and rocks...:bash:

:innocent:

heh... anyone with a strong political affiliation is kinda missing the point and needs to be reprogrammed.

Banditbandit

16th April 2013, 11:52

heh... anyone with a strong political affiliation is kinda missing the point and needs to be reprogrammed.

Shit No !!!! Shot or gassed at the least ...

Banditbandit

16th April 2013, 11:55

How many here rememebr that the SIS was caught spying on a Member of Parliament?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10555609

Not that far back either .. Donkey was PM ... And now the GCSB can help out with this ...

MIXONE

16th April 2013, 12:05

How can you tell when a politician is not lying?
His lips are not moving.

Anybody that trusts donkey and believes what he's saying is a moron!

mashman

16th April 2013, 12:08

Shit No !!!! Shot or gassed at the least ...

:rofl:... some of them may be of use. Perhaps a probation period and community service cleaning "dole bludgers" houses? and then shot/gassed/drug induced and let loose in Sowf Awkland wearing a billboard of I hate niggers?

Oscar

16th April 2013, 12:42

If GCSB has an ability to be a) a cyber security consultant to NZ companies and agencies and b) a technical assist when another agency such as SIS or the Police has a warrant, then I'm ok with that.

Stop being so reasonable.
Anything that Key does is bad.

gwigs

16th April 2013, 14:05

John key is a total arsehole,I,d love to see him get his come upence the smug bastard.
As my old dad used to say.....if you got him in a corner you wouldnt get tired of kicking him.
What they want is to take away more of your rights and they try to scare the sheeple into allowing it
with tales of terrorists.... its just a con.:angry2:

Oscar

16th April 2013, 14:08

gwigs

16th April 2013, 14:10

Do you vote?

Yes I do and not for fucking National.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 15:19

Yes I do and not for fucking National.

fun fact: more people voted against them than for them but they got in because of MMP.

Banditbandit

16th April 2013, 15:47

Yeah ... but the same thing happened under FPP ... I will have to look up which elections .. but Governments were elected with less than 50% of the total vote - especially National.

1981 - Both National and Labout got 39% of the overall vote each - National got 47 seats - Labour got 43

1978 National got 40% of the overall vote - but got enough seats to govern ...

And there are others ...

BoristheBiter

16th April 2013, 15:48

fun fact: more people voted against them than for them but they got in because of MMP.

Yep just like the last three terms of Labour so whats you fucking point? oh that's right you just hate, no need to have a point.

BoristheBiter

16th April 2013, 15:50

Yeah ... but the same thing happened under FPP ... I will have to look up which elections .. but Governments were eleted with less than 50% of the total vote - especially National.

and you are the same, it's all fine and right until National gets in.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:00

Yep just like the last three terms of Labour so whats you fucking point? oh that's right you just hate, no need to have a point.

bring it on, dickhead.

If you read my first post, I hate politicians. All of them I dont care what stripe they are. They are not thinkers, they are not do-ers, they are not even administrators most of the time: they are self aggrandising horrible me-first and the gimme gimme types who I would not invite into my house for coffee or a beer.

Thats my fucking point.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:01

ArL94OjZSAU

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:03

and you are the same, it's all fine and right until National gets in.

fool.

I think if you review some of my posts about the last Liarbor gubblemunt I have been at least as scathing as I am about this current group of djonkey and his lumpy minions.

Mr Banditbandit and I could not have (I suspect) more different political views, but I am way more likely to invite him round for a beer than I am you.

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:05

fun fact: more people voted against them than for them but they got in because of MMP.

And when was the last time we had a government that represented the majority?

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:10

And when was the last time we had a government that represented the majority?

Muldoon?

Holyoake?

Michael Savage?

Walter Nash?

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:27

Muldoon?

Holyoake?

Michael Savage?

Walter Nash?

Muldoon
1975 - 47.6%
1978 - 39.8%
1981 - 38.8%
In '78 & 81 he got the treasurey seats with less votes than Labour

Holyoakes highest share of the vote was 47.6%

Nash's was 48ish.

However in 1951, Sid Holland got 54% in a snap election (guess why) and had a 51% majority in 1949.
54% was good for 50 of the 80 seats in the house.

Maha

16th April 2013, 16:42

Muldoon
1975 - 47.6%
1978 - 39.8%
1981 - 38.8%
In '78 & 81 he got the treasurey seats with less votes than Labour

Holyoakes highest share of the vote was 47.6%

Nash's was 48ish.

However in 1951, Sid Holland got 54% in a snap election (guess why) and had a 51% majority in 1949.
54% was good for 50 of the 80 seats in the house.

Is there similar stats in that list on Norm Kirk?

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:43

Muldoon?

Holyoake?

Michael Savage?

Walter Nash?

Savage managed 55.8% in 1938, and Peter Fraser the same in 1943.

ellipsis

16th April 2013, 16:43

Muldoon

However in 1951, Sid Holland got 54% in a snap election (guess why)

...no doubt in some measure,having at his beck and call, the backing of a largely conservative Press and the State control of radio broadcasting...

scissorhands

16th April 2013, 16:44

I only watch mature porn, just in case they are underage....
So I should be sweet

The anti protesting bill/thingy is a bit of a worry though

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:46

Is there similar stats in that list on Norm Kirk?

1972 Labour 48.4% for 55 seats, National 41.5% for 32 seats (13 seats lost on a 3.7% swing).

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:47

...no doubt in some measure,having at his beck and call, the backing of a largely conservative Press and the State control of radio broadcasting...

Nothing to do with what was going on at the Wharves, then?

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:52

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:53

I only watch mature porn, just in case they are underage....
So I should be sweet

thanks so much for sharing.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 16:54

Nothing to do with what was going on at the Wharves, then?

I've got some really good family history about that shit. I wish I had gotten my grandmother to do a proper interview before she died, or had a tape recorder with me when she told me stories about the way shit went down.

Oscar

16th April 2013, 16:57

What about the third labgov after the schnapps election?

Labour 42.98% 56 Seats
National 35.89% 37 Seats
Social Credit 7.63% 2 Seats

The interesting thing here was that the New Zealand Party got 12.25% of the vote for NO seats.
It could be argued that Lange didn't rid us of Muldoon, Bob Jones did.

Usarka

16th April 2013, 17:27

At least Key is teaching people that it's ok to do illegal stuff as long as you think it's ok.....

ellipsis

16th April 2013, 17:34

Nothing to do with what was going on at the Wharves, then?

...having had laws passed making it illegal to assist or be pro the workers involved and having very heavy bully boys and the army to back them up, any reporter writing anything of the truth was also treated as seditious and heavily policed, beaten to fuck...are you trying to tell me the general populace were going to resist...no doubt you already know better...where do you get your shit from...off the web :facepalm: or from the National Party archives...

Oscar

16th April 2013, 17:45

...having had laws passed making it illegal to assist or be pro the workers involved and having very heavy bully boys and the army to back them up, any reporter writing anything of the truth was also treated as seditious and heavily policed, beaten to fuck...are you trying to tell me the general populace were going to resist...no doubt you already know better...where do you get your shit from...off the web :facepalm: or from the National Party archives...

What are you on about?
You might wanna take a breath there, Bubb...
You tried to say that the election was swung due to the Govt. having their hands up the fourth estate's back, and there is truth in that.
But there was no doubt that some of electorate were frustrated with the unions anyway, and some that were scared of the commie menace (sounds silly now).
Maybe when you grow up, you'll realise that the truth of history is rarely as black and white as you seem to think, usually it is shades of grey.

Oakie

16th April 2013, 17:47

fun fact: more people voted against them than for them but they got in because of MMP.

Guarantee that that will be true of any election over the rest of my lifetime, whichever party wins. Probably true of all the MMP elections so far come to think of it.

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 17:56

...having had laws passed making it illegal to assist or be pro the workers involved and having very heavy bully boys and the army to back them up, any reporter writing anything of the truth was also treated as seditious and heavily policed, beaten to fuck...are you trying to tell me the general populace were going to resist...no doubt you already know better...where do you get your shit from...off the web :facepalm: or from the National Party archives...

And Split Enz says that history never repeats. Bollocks.

Look at the proposals for a 500m exclusion zone around oil prospecting.

djonkey is the Goatse of the south pacific. not only is he bending over for any big business bully boy, he is using two hands to spread it wider and saying come on, I just had a horses cock in there.

mashman

16th April 2013, 17:57

Do you vote?

:killingme coz that makes such a huge fuckin difference

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 17:58

Labour 42.98% 56 Seats
National 35.89% 37 Seats
Social Credit 7.63% 2 Seats

The interesting thing here was that the New Zealand Party got 12.25% of the vote for NO seats.
It could be argued that Lange didn't rid us of Muldoon, Bob Jones did.

Huh. If I ever knew that I had forgotten it. And I had utterly forgotten about th NZ Party. I think i probably voted Labour in that one.

And social bloody credit. I had entirely forgotten about them. Cor, those were the days, right?

Oscar

16th April 2013, 17:59

:killingme coz that makes such a huge fuckin difference

If everybody thought like you it would make a difference.
Fortunately for the rest of us, you're special...:facepalm:

HenryDorsetCase

16th April 2013, 17:59

:killingme coz that makes such a huge fuckin difference

If you don't vote you can't have your pudding.

ellipsis

16th April 2013, 18:03

What are you on about?
You might wanna take a breath there, Bubb...
You tried to say that the election was swung due to the Govt. having their hands up the fourth estate's back, and there is truth in that.
But there was no doubt that some of electorate were frustrated with the unions anyway, and some that were scared of the commie menace (sounds silly now).
Maybe when you grow up, you'll realise that the truth of history is rarely as black and white as you seem to think, usually it is shades of grey.

...dont call me Bubb, Knobsuck...you bend one way then reply with some shit and you think YOU are absolutely correct ...maybe you should try looking at the grey bits 'cos I've been living with the grey bits for as many years as I can recall...you need to grow up and realise that some cunts like you may spout shit, some of us may take exception and retaliate with OUR truths...it's called being true to your convictions...none of yours stand up in my eyes...

James Deuce

16th April 2013, 18:05

Guarantee that that will be true of any election over the rest of my lifetime, whichever party wins. Probably true of all the MMP elections so far come to think of it.

There is a way to fix that but Kiwis are too lazy and unmotivated.

SPman

16th April 2013, 18:06

Jeez Jim, who can afford an AK47 and a Kilo of C4 these days........

Key is a sociopathic liar - he wouldn't know the truth if it dragged him into the seat of a Ferrari and handed him the ownership papers........however the 65% of the poulation that will obey perceived authority, even if they a dubious of them, will do what he wants, so the rest of us can go hang!

mashman

16th April 2013, 18:06

If everybody thought like you it would make a difference.
Fortunately for the rest of us, you're special...:facepalm:

There's time.

If you don't vote you can't have your pudding.

How can you have any pudding if you don't vote.

Oscar

16th April 2013, 18:06

Huh. If I ever knew that I had forgotten it. And I had utterly forgotten about th NZ Party. I think i probably voted Labour in that one.

And social bloody credit. I had entirely forgotten about them. Cor, those were the days, right?

You do kinda forget stuff like - I voted Social Credit at my first election.

Bruce Beetham, eh?

Stuff like - the 1981 National Party Election Campaign kicked off at the Founders Theatre in Hamilton. I had a banner that said "Muldoon Eats Babies". Some old trout took offense and started screaming at us, calling us "useless cunts" and "dole bludging bastards", she had to warned by the constabulary that she was in danger of being arrested for Offensive Language.

Stuff like - nicking Dr. Ian Shearers (remember him?) stupid blue and white plastic hat right of his head at a function and then being astounded at how fast the preeck could run...I suppose these days you'd be shot by the DPS.

Oscar

16th April 2013, 18:11

...dont call me Bubb, Knobsuck...you bend one way then reply with some shit and you think YOU are absolutely correct ...maybe you should try looking at the grey bits 'cos I've been living with the grey bits for as many years as I can recall...you need to grow up and realise that some cunts like you may spout shit, some of us may take exception and retaliate with OUR truths...it's called being true to your convictions...none of yours stand up in my eyes...

My, my - you are excited.
Have you ever stopped to consider that whereas your truth may yours, it ain't mine?
Besides, what you're actually talking about is your opinion.

As for growing up, if that involves ranting on the interweb and calling people cunts, I'll pass.

koba

16th April 2013, 19:11

What they want is to take away more of your rights and they try to scare the sheeple into allowing it
with tales of terrorists.... its just a con.:angry2:

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."

No prizes for guessing where that comes from...

May not actually be from Hitler but it's certainly interesting.

Akzle

16th April 2013, 19:30

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8552746/Sweeping-GCSB-changes-announced

I hate all politicians. But this one particularly.

"Law abiding citizens need not fear the GCSB"

bahahahhhahhahahahaaaaaaaa.

THE BOAT PEOPLE ARE COMING.

o, wait, that was last weeks' headline.

fuck, just. keep voting and shit. be good citizens. don't rock the boat, and don't forget to get your microchip.

gwigs

16th April 2013, 19:42

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."

No prizes for guessing where that comes from...

May not actually be from Hitler but it's certainly interesting.

Look whats happened in the USA with the Patriot Act,where they can arrest anyone and lock them up indefinately
with no trial if they suspect you of terrorism.911 was the excuse the government needed to take away peoples rights
under the threat of exagerated terrorism,I actualy dont believe the story we have been told about 911,I think the US goverment
had a hand in it so they could control the people more easily and they would give up their freedoms cause they are frightened.
And now a bombing in Boston....good excuse to take more freedoms away.

Ocean1

16th April 2013, 20:10

There is a way to fix that but Kiwis are too lazy and unmotivated.

Can you just paraphrase that for us, dude?

Nah, there's a lot of shit let slip in the rush to keep the other side out.

Look whats happened in the USA...

And that's WITH a constitution.

avgas

16th April 2013, 20:22

Do you vote?
Does it matter? I took a shit last week and now the gubbermint is releasing GCSB stuff. Last time I voted I got jack.
Therefore either my shit is all powerful - or the vote doesn't count. Let me know if you want the next one - can't promise magic powers.......but neither can deer velvet.

As for those of you who think NZ doesn't make naughty stuff...........we are renowned for our quality in engineering such goodies. 15 ppm (parts per million) seems to be the pass mark for the stuff - but some of the mil spec stuff is not quite to that level.
Bloody ironic as the whole lot is shipped off-shore.

Out of interest what do fellow KB's think I should do next election. Have already voted National, Labour and Greens and don't like any of them any more.
Who should I vote for next?

Grumph

16th April 2013, 20:31

What are you on about?
You might wanna take a breath there, Bubb...
You tried to say that the election was swung due to the Govt. having their hands up the fourth estate's back, and there is truth in that.
But there was no doubt that some of electorate were frustrated with the unions anyway, and some that were scared of the commie menace (sounds silly now).
Maybe when you grow up, you'll realise that the truth of history is rarely as black and white as you seem to think, usually it is shades of grey.

If you'd grown up in a Port town - or had anything to do with the shipping industry in NZ you'd realise where Ellipsis is coming from. Given a mandate - or what passes for one - the tories will always go the same way. Look at Key's first term then compare what's happening now....
One fact that Key's lot conveniently forgets when they say they want pay parity with Oz is the very strong unions there which maintain the high pay for the workers.
when I see him come out with something on TV, I'm dead sure that a focus group has given him the assurance it'll be worth votes...he doesn't move unless it's worth something. Teflon man lives....

SPman

16th April 2013, 20:33

As the missuses grandfather used to say....

"Voting - if it was worth anything, they wouldn't let you"......

Oscar

16th April 2013, 20:34

Does it matter?

It was kind of an in joke - one of the most vitriolic critics of the Gummint here also takes pride in not voting.

Ocean1

16th April 2013, 20:38

when I see him come out with something on TV, I'm dead sure that a focus group has given him the assurance it'll be worth votes...he doesn't move unless it's worth something. Teflon man lives....

So he checks the voters want something before he impliments it?

The cad!

Brian d marge

16th April 2013, 20:40

As for growing up, if that involves ranting on the interweb and calling people cunts, I'll pass.
Now don't u go upsetting oscar , that's my job
And as for ranting on the internet and calling people names . young Oscar uses the older style of vernacular unfamiliar to most of us but is right at home on kB. Currently he is working on opinions and if all goes well next year supported opinions

We should all support him in his endeavours

Stephen

Oscar

16th April 2013, 20:40

AllanB

16th April 2013, 20:41

Meh. I voted for that Peter Dunn guy with the big hair once. The WORM made me do it as it said he would do great things. That was probably 12 years back. I don't think he has done anything ............. His hair has gone grey (as has mine) but he still has a full head (the bastard).

I have a theory that politicians start out with the best of intentions when first getting into the game. Somewhere down the track the reality of the boys club kicks in and they lose focus of their original ideals. Free flights, BMW's and fat wages can probably do that to you ........

Oscar

16th April 2013, 20:44

Now don't u go upsetting oscar , that's my job
And as for ranting on the internet and calling people names . young Oscar uses the older style of vernacular unfamiliar to most of us but is right at home on kB. Currently he is working on opinions and if all goes well next year supported opinions

We should all support him in his endeavours

Stephen

Style of vernacular?
It's called grammar and syntax.

The young chap in question is somewhat similar to your good self - he has opinion confused with fact.

SPman

16th April 2013, 20:47

I have a theory that politicians start out with the best of intentions when first getting into the game. Somewhere down the track the reality of the boys club kicks in and they lose focus of their original ideals. Free flights, BMW's and fat wages can probably do that to you ........Not to all - just most. Unfortunately it's the timeservers who tend to hang on for grim death, once they've got their hands on a bit of power - in all parties!

Akzle

16th April 2013, 20:54

Who should I vote for next?

1) don't vote.

2) vote no confidence in the system, just take a vivid with you and write "it's all bullshit, fuck the corporate world" on your ballot

3) winston will keep them honest...

Ocean1

16th April 2013, 20:55

Not to all - just most. Unfortunately it's the timeservers who tend to hang on for grim death, once they've got their hands on a bit of power - in all parties!

You might have something, there. The fastest way to gut a struggling company of any value is to offer voluntary redundancy. The guys with any get-up-and-go do that, and the guys with little hope of anything else hang on for grim death. Do that several times and you’ve got a sort of reduced mixture of the most useless bastards in the industry.

Elections are a sort of never-ending cycle, producing the same shit, a super-saturated effluvium of concentrated incompetence.

Brian d marge

16th April 2013, 21:02

Style of vernacular?
It's called grammar and syntax.

The young chap in question is somewhat similar to your good self - he has opinion confused with fact.
My bad
I've got it now "opinion" is the stuff you back up with some sort of evidence , " fact" is the stuff that doesn't require some form of evidence,
But then there is the " third form " of the vernacular ( dictionary Oscar, I used it correctly)
This "third form " omits both evidence and the non use of evidence, and just uses colourful names. this is often referred to as spam .

Stephen
NZ has the purchasing power of the toilet department at Walmart, anyone who thinks they are a leader of a first world country is in dreamland and will buy two jousting sticks for 180.... Or help Andy Krieger buy and sell short NZ money, then forgets ,he was ever in america at that time

gwigs

16th April 2013, 21:03

You might have something, there. The fastest way to gut a struggling company of any value is to offer voluntary redundancy. The guys with any get-up-and-go do that, and the guys with little hope of anything else hang on for grim death. Do that several times and you’ve got a sort of reduced mixture of the most useless bastards in the industry.

Elections are a sort of never-ending cycle, producing the same shit, a super-saturated effluvium of concentrated incompetence.

+1 on that ,very true.

pete376403

16th April 2013, 21:36

Stephen
.... Or help Andy Krieger buy and sell short NZ money, then forgets ,he was ever in america at that time

I wonder how many in NZ (or even in this thread) have any idea what this refers to?

BoristheBiter

16th April 2013, 21:53

bring it on, dickhead.

If you read my first post, I hate politicians. All of them I dont care what stripe they are. They are not thinkers, they are not do-ers, they are not even administrators most of the time: they are self aggrandising horrible me-first and the gimme gimme types who I would not invite into my house for coffee or a beer.

Thats my fucking point.

bring what on? I asked you to clarify your point.

[QUOTE=HenryDorsetCase;1130532087]fool.

What s the matter fuckface? don't like some one disagreeing with you?
You're a lawyer thought it would be second nature by now.

Zedder

16th April 2013, 21:53

The guy running the GCSB is an old friend of John Key. What could possibly go wrong?

Oscar

16th April 2013, 22:51

My bad
I've got it now "opinion" is the stuff you back up with some sort of evidence , " fact" is the stuff that doesn't require some form of evidence,
But then there is the " third form " of the vernacular ( dictionary Oscar, I used it correctly)
This "third form " omits both evidence and the non use of evidence, and just uses colourful names. this is often referred to as spam .

Stephen
NZ has the purchasing power of the toilet department at Walmart, anyone who thinks they are a leader of a first world country is in dreamland and will buy two jousting sticks for 180.... Or help Andy Krieger buy and sell short NZ money, then forgets ,he was ever in america at that time

There are more than three forms.
You seem to have a style that is heavy on hyperbole and conspiracy, yet light on information.
A sort of Winston Peters of the on-line forum.
Alas, not particularly original or clever, though...

Oscar

16th April 2013, 22:53

I wonder how many in NZ (or even in this thread) have any idea what this refers to?

Only the really clever ones.
You can tell by their tinfoil headgear.

nosebleed

17th April 2013, 07:36

There is a way to fix that but Kiwis are too lazy and unmotivated.

Personally it's because...

If you read my first post, I hate politicians. All of them I dont care what stripe they are. They are not thinkers, they are not do-ers, they are not even administrators most of the time: they are self aggrandising horrible me-first and the gimme gimme types who I would not invite into my house for coffee or a beer.

Thats my fucking point.

I'm with HDC on this.

davereid

17th April 2013, 07:47

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8552746/Sweeping-GCSB-changes-announced

I hate all politicians. But this one particularly.

"Law abiding citizens need not fear the GCSB"

"Don't worry, its only a shower"

"New Zealand (or as he would have it "NuZillin") technology has been sourced (or tried to be) for incorporation into WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION"

fucking. liar. If that last statement is true, are terrirists using powdered milk instead of C4? electric fence controllers instead of detonators? Maybe sheeps wool instead of wire.

I'll say it again: I think he is a fucking liar. IF any of that is true, then release the evidence you cunt.

Its been a bad morning. this isnt helping.

/rant.

NZ has been quietly slipping down this road for years. We have got so used to the quiet de-evolution of or freedoms and privacy, and the constant chant "only those that have something to hide have something to fear" has eroded the will of many to even bother resisting, as we just end up embattled by the ignorant.

The unfortunate events in Boston will just reinforce Mr. Keys ability to flick through another bit of the surveillance state that so much work has been going into.

Zedder

17th April 2013, 08:11

The SIS guide to preventing WMD proliferation:http://www.nzsis.govt.nz/assets/media/NZSIS-WMD-pamphlet.pdf

James Deuce

17th April 2013, 08:43

Hammers my point home.
Without really trying.

Banditbandit

17th April 2013, 09:14

and you are the same, it's all fine and right until National gets in.

Yeah ??? LIke HenryDC I hate all the fuckers .. I just gave National examples because I happened to run across those easily on the interdweb ...

Guarantee that that will be true of any election over the rest of my lifetime, whichever party wins. Probably true of all the MMP elections so far come to think of it.

Naa .. Only if you think that National is the Government right now - it's actually a coalition - and the total party votes for the parties in the colation exceeds 50% therefore the coalition Government has a majority ... and any coalition Govermment will do in the future (unles they just happen to be a true minority Goverment - whch is still possible. )

Jeez Jim, who can afford an AK47 and a Kilo of C4 these days........

I'm sure if you asked there are groups outr there who will give them to you for free ... just ask any Islamist group ...

3) winston will keep them honest...

Bwhahahaha .. he can't even keep himself honest .. "Which part of NO don't you understand?" ...

HenryDorsetCase

17th April 2013, 09:35

I wonder how many in NZ (or even in this thread) have any idea what this refers to?

Well to be fair I didn't.

I did get the "two jousting sticks for $180" reference though.

Ocean1

17th April 2013, 09:39

Well to be fair ...

HDC needs to try harder.

HenryDorsetCase

17th April 2013, 09:48

HDC needs to try harder.

I could have googled it I guess but I am notoriously lazy.

Banditbandit

17th April 2013, 09:59

.

Or help Andy Krieger buy and sell short NZ money, then forgets ,he was ever in america at that time

I wonder how many in NZ (or even in this thread) have any idea what this refers to?

It specifically refers to Andy Krieger nearly sending our country bankrupt ...

(from http://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/08/greatest-currency-trades.asp)

No. 3: Andy Krieger Vs. the Kiwi

"In 1987, Andy Krieger, a 32-year-old currency trader at Bankers Trust, was carefully watching the currencies that were rallying against the dollar following the Black Monday crash. As investors and companies rushed out of the American dollar and into other currencies that had suffered less damage in the market crash, there were bound to be some currencies that would become fundamentally overvalued, creating a good opportunity for arbitrage. The currency Krieger targeted was the New Zealand dollar, also known as the kiwi.

Using the relatively new techniques afforded by options, Krieger took up a short position against the kiwi worth hundreds of millions of dollars. In fact, his sell orders were said to exceed the money supply of New Zealand. The selling pressure combined with the lack of currency in circulation caused the kiwi to drop sharply. It yo-yoed between a 3 and 5% loss while Krieger made millions for his employers."

The rest of Brian D'Marge's post does refer to the 1951 waterfront dispute ... (http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/strikes-and-labour-disputes/page-7) .. the Labour Party said it was neither for nor against the unions ... and in the following election many union people did not vote .. meaning Labout lost ..

Brian d marge

17th April 2013, 12:36

Well to be fair I didn't.

I did get the "two jousting sticks for $180" reference though.

The thing is , Donkey WAS pulled up about his trading affairs , memory went blank and then it was all fogotten about

unlike the purchaser of the joustiing sticks who was dreaming , donkey was scheming AND NOT ONE HAS taken him to task on it

not that I know

Stephen

Brian d marge

17th April 2013, 12:57

It specifically refers to Andy Krieger nearly sending our country bankrupt ...

(from http://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/08/greatest-currency-trades.asp)

No. 3: Andy Krieger Vs. the Kiwi

"In 1987, Andy Krieger, a 32-year-old currency trader at Bankers Trust, was carefully watching the currencies that were rallying against the dollar following the Black Monday crash. As investors and companies rushed out of the American dollar and into other currencies that had suffered less damage in the market crash, there were bound to be some currencies that would become fundamentally overvalued, creating a good opportunity for arbitrage. The currency Krieger targeted was the New Zealand dollar, also known as the kiwi.

Using the relatively new techniques afforded by options, Krieger took up a short position against the kiwi worth hundreds of millions of dollars. In fact, his sell orders were said to exceed the money supply of New Zealand. The selling pressure combined with the lack of currency in circulation caused the kiwi to drop sharply. It yo-yoed between a 3 and 5% loss while Krieger made millions for his employers."

The rest of Brian D'Marge's post does refer to the 1951 waterfront dispute ... (http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/strikes-and-labour-disputes/page-7) .. the Labour Party said it was neither for nor against the unions ... and in the following election many union people did not vote .. meaning Labout lost ..

sorry I tried to just link it to the post but ,,,,,,, so I cut and pasted it .. basically its what was happening to NZ during the 70s I hightlighted the important bits and as bb has found , included a bit from investmetwiki

anyway NZ during the 70 and 80s ........I would like someone who remembers the devaluation ( i do but,,,,) and how it effected them , also what was the reason Muldoon won power ,, what was the feeling at that time .?

Stephen
from my blog ...

8 March 1983 The New Zealand Dollar was devalued by 6% against its weighted basket of currencies.
The middle rate in terms of the U.S. Dollar was consequently changed to US$0.655=$NZ1,
representing a depreciation of 8.3% from the middle rate of the previous day.
8 August 1983 The Reserve Bank practice of fixing daily exchange rates for the New Zealand Dollar
against the U.S. Dollar was abandoned, allowing the unit to follow international currency movements.
1984 At the end of 1984, almost all foreign exchange controls were in the process of removal.
31 December 1984 The buying and selling rates for the U.S. Dollar were US$0.4723 and US$0.4823,
respectively, per $NZ1.
4 March 1985 The practice of establishing a fixed exchange rate with respect to a trade-weighted
basket of currencies was terminated.
The exchange rate for the New Zealand Dollar was to be determined on the basis of supply and demand
in the foreign exchange market.
The Reserve Bank ceased to quote official buying and selling rates for the New Zealand Dollar, but
would enter the market in periods of disturbed conditions.
31 December 1985The buying and selling rates for the U.S. Dollar were US$0.499 and US$0.5,
respectively, per $NZ1.
1986 The $NZ25 tax on foreign travel tickets was abolished.
The Effective Rate was eliminated and replaced by the Interbank Rate which was to be determined by
supply and demand conditions in the exchange market. The Reserve Bank retained discretionary power
to intervene in the market.
31 December 1986 The buying and selling rates for the U.S. Dollar were US$0.5250 and
US$0.5240, respectively, per $NZ1.
31 December 1987 The buying and selling rates for the U.S. Dollar were US$0.6595 and
US$0.6585, respectively, per $NZ1.
1989 During 1989, a number of exchange control regulations were abolished.
So to review and remembering the nixon shock ...

In 1971, the Effective Rate was created and
the currency's link to Pound Sterling was replaced with a pegging to the U.S. Dollar. In 1973, the New
Zealand Dollar was placed on a controlled, floating basis. Exchange rate is computed from the value of
the New Zealand Dollar, which is determined on the basis of the fixed relationship between the New
Zealand Dollar and a basket of currencies representing New Zealand's main trading partners. The
weights of the currencies included in the basket are established in accordance with their proportionate
share of New Zealand's total current overseas receipts and payments; the weights are adjusted
quarterly. From 1979, a crawling-peg system of monthly depreciation adopted.

In March 1985, the New Zealand dollar was floated as part of a broad-based deregulation of financial
markets. The rate was determined by the supply and demand in foreign exchange market. The Reserve
Bank has not intervened in the foreign exchange market since the float. In mid-October 1993, the New
Zealand dollar was worth less on a trade-weighted basis than at the time of the float. In early
November, the New Zealand Dollar was trading at 65 U.S. cents (buying rate: US$0.6515 and selling
rate: US$0.6520), having appreciated 6% against the U.S. Dollar in the previous 12 months.
This brings us to the mid eighties ,during the 1970s and early 1980s, New Zealand was faced with a

series of economic problems brought on by changes in the global economy, many of which directly
affected the country, such as Britain’s entry in to the European Economic Community in 1973. New
Zealand was rating badly for living standards and economic performance compared to OECD averages:
in 1980 it had slipped from being in the top five OECD countries to 19th Roger Douglas, who would
later become finance minister, went so far as to say that the country stood “on the brink of economic
ruin”.
Prior to 1985 the New Zealand Dollar was controlled centrally by the Reserve Bank of New
Zealand at a fixed exchange rate to the United States Dollar. In early 1984 the Deputy Governor of the
Reserve Bank, Roderick Deane, became concerned that the dollar had become significantly overvalued
and was vulnerable to currency speculation on the financial markets in the event of a "significant
political event"
Media speculation followed a leak that an incoming Labour government would be likely to
significantly devalue the dollar upon election. The Reserve Bank advised the Prime Minister, Sir
Robert Muldoon, that the dollar should be devalued. Muldoon ignored the advice, owing to his belief
that it would hurt poorer New Zealanders in the medium term. In June 1984 Muldoon announced a
snap election to be held in July. This caused an immediate run on the dollar, as currency speculators
believed a Labour win would mean devaluation. Despite a deepening foreign exchange crisis, Muldoon
continued to refuse to devalue, forcing the Reserve Bank to take some extraordinary steps, such as the
temporary closing the forex markets for a short period of time to slow down devaluation.
On 14 July, Muldoon and National lost the general election, and the Fourth Labour government was
sworn in on 26 July.

By constitutional convention, between election day and the return of the writs for the election, an
outgoing caretaker government defers to the wishes of an incoming government. On Sunday 17 July,
following a meeting between Reserve Bank officials (Reserve Bank Governor Spencer Russell, deputy
Roderick Deane, and Treasury Secretary Bernie Galvin) and the incoming government at Auckland
International Airport, the incoming government requested that the dollar be devalued.
The outgoing Prime Minister Sir Robert Muldoon refused. The foreign exchange market was closed the
following day. In an impromptu television interview with Richard Harman that evening, Muldoon
stated he had been asked to devalue the currency by the incoming government but was not going to.
Prime Minister elect David Lange responded with an interview of his own. He stated: "This nation is at
risk. That is how basic it is. This Prime Minister outgoing, beaten, has, in the course of one television
interview tried to do more damage to the New Zealand economy than any statement ever made. He has
actually alerted the world to a crisis. And like King Canute he stands there and says everyone is wrong
but me".
This provoked a further crisis in the foreign exchange markets - when the exchange was finally opened
on 19 July, millions of foreign exchange dollars left the country as currency speculators expected a
devaluation of the New Zealand dollar.

Lange later remarked "We actually were reduced to asking our
diplomatic posts abroad how much money they could draw down on their credit cards! That is the
extent of the calamity that had been ground into us by the briefings that we'd got".

In the late 1980s the leverage available through derivatives threw up some volatile P&L figures.
Volkswagen came unstuck on some unauthorized currency deals with the National Bank of
Hungary. The broker in the middle Joachim Schmidt did a runner. The London borough of
Hammersmith & Fulham lost $500 million in swaps and swaptions and landed in a celebrated
court case. Britain's law lords controversially ruled the swaps null and void (ultra vires). Bankers
Trust's star currency trader, Andy Krieger, made a killing shorting the New Zealand dollar.

1987 to be exact

Snip http://voter08.wordpress.com/a-brief...e-kiwi-dollar/ (http://voter08.wordpress.com/a-brief-on-andrew-kieger-raiding-the-kiwi-dollar/)

See bb post ( its the same info )

As for Donkey

snip;
Key's first job was in 1982, as an auditor at McCulloch Menzies, and he then moved to be a project manager at Christchurch-based clothing manufacturer Lane Walker Rudkin for two years.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key#cite_note-7) Key began working as a foreign exchange dealer at Elders Finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elders_Limited) in Wellington, and rose to the position of head foreign exchange trader two years later,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key#cite_note-8) then moved to Auckland-based Bankers Trust in 1988.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key#cite_note-timeline-3)

so He would have been at Elders finance october 1987 . and ya dont get promoted unless ya do something .............( the slimey wnker)

I need to re-organise this blog site as I screwed up the layout. and also as said find out what happened in Britain

http://mustnt-grumble.blogspot.jp/20...1_archive.html (http://mustnt-grumble.blogspot.jp/2009_08_01_archive.html)

Banditbandit

17th April 2013, 14:08

I need to re-organise this blog site as I screwed up the layout. and also as said find out what happened in Britain

Why ??? People here don't really care that much - so don't waste you time ...

Brian d marge

17th April 2013, 14:11

Why ??? People here don't really care that much - so don't waste you time ...

some do and its a pain to find anything!!

Stephen

Maha

17th April 2013, 14:30

1972 Labour 48.4% for 55 seats, National 41.5% for 32 seats (13 seats lost on a 3.7% swing).

He was a popular man by all accounts?

He and Muldoon are the only Prime Ministers that have had songs written with them in mind (to my knowledge anyway) Culture by the Knobz, Big Norm by Ebony.

''The band Ebony, topped the charts and won 'Group of the Year' in 1974.
They got their award the night before Mr Kirk died, and received a telegram from him congratulating them... the last message he ever sent''.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DJv_DfMZ7jU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n8frPD7DgqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oscar

17th April 2013, 14:56

He was a popular man by all accounts?

He and Muldoon are the only Prime Ministers that have had songs written with them in mind (to my knowledge anyway) Culture by the Knobz, Big Norm by Ebony.

''The band Ebony, topped the charts and won 'Group of the Year' in 1974.
They got their award the night before Mr Kirk died, and received a telegram from him congratulating them... the last message he ever sent''.

Norm Kirk was a colossus.
I was barely a teenager at the time but he was a hero to me.

Maha

17th April 2013, 15:03

Norm Kirk was a colossus.
I was barely a teenager at the time but he was a hero to me.

I was 12 when he died, I remember being in the car with Dad driving in Palmerston North somewhere, when the news of his death came on the radio.

HenryDorsetCase

17th April 2013, 16:37

Hey this should get you conspiracy theorists fizzing at the bung. I use the iGovt thing a bit (companies office) and this was a link off that site:

first its voluntary: then its "Voluntary" but only if you dont want the state support that you're entitled to/ Then its compulsory (but only for scummy benny fraudsters so that Paula Bennett can sit on them if they do the wrong thing, then its compulsory for all (becuase EVERYONE depends on the state), then the Stasi (sorry, po po) are shipping people off for re-education to Huntly or Invercargill or the Chathams.

"Realme" indeed.

http://www.realme.govt.nz/

Ocean1

17th April 2013, 18:31

I could have googled it I guess but I am notoriously lazy.

I'm not interested in the conspiracy theory. I was simply disappointed you felt the need to be fair in the face of such staggeringly puerile and inconsequential bullshit.

It's just not done.

mashman

17th April 2013, 18:45

BoristheBiter

17th April 2013, 18:48

Why ??? People here don't really care that much - so don't waste you time ...

That's dead right.
Who reaaly cares (other than they normal ones on here)?

Life is way too short to worry about about shit I just don't care about, have no control over, can't change, doesn't effect me or all of the above.

see ya later, I'm off snowboarding.

Brian d marge

17th April 2013, 19:57

BoristheBiter

17th April 2013, 22:38

Well it kinda does matter
And if you don't mind paying " loadsa moneey" for your rego , electricity, water , standard of living

Or how about being able to see your kids grow up ,,,in person not just on Skype

Or if none of the above , how about having some sort of idea about what one is talking about,

Why do I need to bother about any of this , I mean I worked hard I have a house a job , my kids are in Australia working for a big company ,,,,,,

Answer , you don't need to YOU are all right .....sweet as ....

As for not understanding your county's history , let alone trying to make a better future is the hallmark of a true imbecile.
Stephen

Oh I understand my history very well thanks (i can trace my family back 500 years) and unless it something worth while it makes no difference.
No I don't like paying loads of money for my rego, that's why it is no hold, But if I have to choose between ACC or private health care (like the US) then I am quite happy to pay. (you should see the ACC costs for work, makes bike rego look like loose change)

I don't have kids so can't comment

I have worked hard for what I have, never asked for anything, gave up lots to do the things I enjoy and still there those that just have their hand out, lazy fuckers that think they are owed something and me bleating about it on some random forum is not going to change that.

Am I alright? yes, do I care about everyone else? not particularly, do they care about me? probably not.

I care about this country just as much as you, maybe more as I am still here and haven't jump ship because the grass looks green somewhere else.

mashman

17th April 2013, 22:53

and me bleating

baaaaaaaaaaaa

Oscar

17th April 2013, 23:09

baaaaaaaaaaaa

Hmmm, somewhat more sense than usual...

You may be the first example of someone suffering from an on line speech impediment.
Either that, or as I suspected all along, you post by bashing your forehead randomly on your keyboard.

Brian d marge

18th April 2013, 01:41

[QUOTE=BoristheBiter;1130532808]Oh I understand my history very well thanks (i can trace my family back 500 years) and unless it something worth while it makes no difference. I cant trace my family , lost in the armpit of east london at the turn of the century , we did own a very dodgy wood yard in stratford e17
No I don't like paying loads of money for my rego, that's why it is no hold, But if I have to choose between ACC or private health care (like the US) then I am quite happy to pay. (you should see the ACC costs for work, makes bike rego look like loose change) i know the ACC costs and all that is related , my mother is the person you go to when ACC gives you a reaming , she has won many points of law against the powers that be ! ( listening to her on the phone to a person who has had an injury , but really has NO idea WTF is going on , ( your average kiwi line worker, in the meatworks ) if almost heartbreaking . fk me I could tell you some stories !

I don't have kids so can't comment ( expensive , and its more fun trying to make them )

I have worked hard for what I have, never asked for anything, gave up lots to do the things I enjoy and still there those that just have their hand out, lazy fuckers that think they are owed something and me bleating about it on some random forum is not going to change that. ( it might , there maybe one person out there who think ,,,oh maybe he has a point ! , or gives you a new way of thinking that you never thought of before , and its just plain fun taking the piss out of Oscar .

Am I alright? yes, do I care about everyone else? not particularly, do they care about me? probably not. Wrong... I care

I care about this country just as much as you, maybe more as I am still here and haven't jump ship because the grass looks green somewhere else.

if the water is coming over the bow, and the captain is donkey , the grass is greener ( especially if you have a family and your career is in Motorcycle design ! not much of that going on in NZ ! ) BUT that shouldnt and doesnt stop me from caring or trying to change things

letters to the MP are freepost within NZ ( not that they read them ) but if presented in a gentle style you get a response ( Sometimes on Jim in the Afternoons! ) ...

Stephen

BoristheBiter

18th April 2013, 08:14

it might , there maybe one person out there who think ,,,oh maybe he has a point ! , or gives you a new way of thinking that you never thought of before.

:rofl:Could you really see ANY gobberment stopping needless benefits? that's the Labour core voter.

Wrong... I care :grouphug:

if the water is coming over the bow, and the captain is donkey , the grass is greener ( especially if you have a family and your career is in Motorcycle design ! not much of that going on in NZ ! ) BUT that shouldnt and doesnt stop me from caring or trying to change things

At this point in time I think he is the best we have, look at the other choices we have :facepalm:
As for the sinking ship analogy, I think you are just plain wrong and we are in a very strong position, I just think you guys need something to pass the time.

BoristheBiter

18th April 2013, 08:15

baaaaaaaaaaaa

Where's the mint sauce?

Cooperate or I will beat you with a leek (a cooked one of course)

Brian d marge

18th April 2013, 11:05

At this point in time I think he is the best we have, look at the other choices we have :facepalm:
As for the sinking ship analogy, I think you are just plain wrong and we are in a very strong position, I just think you guys need something to pass the time.

IF you look at NZ from the banks point of view , NZ treasury have/are one of the best in the world

BUT Im sorry no , the standard of living is shyt ( compared to what I have here)

April last year , I rented a house in diamond Bay chch for a couple of weeks , lovely place , really nice but Iwas shock at the bad teeth and eyes and the cost of going out

My old man had lung cancer , really good , but fk me how long was that waiting etc........

I will accept the not many people here point ,, but there is no excuse for bad teeth and eyes

esp when we DID have good care

Stephen

BoristheBiter

18th April 2013, 11:14

IF you look at NZ from the banks point of view , NZ treasury have/are one of the best in the world

BUT Im sorry no , the standard of living is shyt ( compared to what I have here)

April last year , I rented a house in diamond Bay chch for a couple of weeks , lovely place , really nice but Iwas shock at the bad teeth and eyes and the cost of going out

My old man had lung cancer , really good , but fk me how long was that waiting etc........

I will accept the not many people here point ,, but there is no excuse for bad teeth and eyes

esp when we DID have good care

Stephen

we have always had bad teeth as it has never been free but i do get your point.

As for the rest I strongly disagree. I have yet to find another country where I can do the things I enjoy without costing me an arm and a leg(sometimes a kidney).
The things you compare it against my be better in Japan but if you want to live in a city that has 40 million people be my guest.

Ocean1

18th April 2013, 11:26

but there is no excuse for bad teeth and eyes

esp when we DID have good care

When did NZ's public healthcare funding ever cover teeth and eyes, Outside of school children?

NZ healthcare is also one of the best in the world, and we have better health care now than at any time in our history, both in terms of total budget allocation and the number of available services.

Brian d marge

18th April 2013, 11:54

Mate trust me
Its crap
I went to the local gp in diamond harbour how long was the wait......2 he's and that was in diamond harbour:-)
I have just been to the hospital here, sore hip, xray ct scan , blood test and pharmacy.... In 1.5 hours,,,, teeth, coat me 100 bucks to get an impacted wisdom tooth removed, big problem that one
No sorry it cheaper and more convenient to fly overseas and people do , see medical holidays
And while Tokyo is big the rest of Japan is empty,,,,ish

Stephen

mashman

18th April 2013, 13:22

Hmmm, somewhat more sense than usual...

You may be the first example of someone suffering from an on line speech impediment.
Either that, or as I suspected all along, you post by bashing your forehead randomly on your keyboard.

You understood it well enough. Post finds target audience, yay, all happy.

Where's the mint sauce?

Cooperate or I will beat you with a leek (a cooked one of course)

It will be provided once you've been cooked with your leek.

SPman

18th April 2013, 15:17

When did NZ's public healthcare funding ever cover teeth and eyes, Outside of school children?

NZ healthcare is also one of the best in the world, and we have better health care now than at any time in our history, both in terms of total budget allocation and the number of available services.
Don't know about teeth, but I had a cataract done at Greenlane - had to wait 6 months but, and the wait for the second eye would have been 9-12 months. Moved to Oz very shortly after (not for work, or because I hated NZ - quite the contrary), and the local country Dr took one look at the second eye and it was done within 6 weeks - on medicare.

The push to get people on Health insurance in Oz is a worry.......hope it doesn't take hold in NZ - a decent health service available to all for free is one of the foundations of a decent society.

Brian d marge

18th April 2013, 15:29

One week here for cataract, it took longer for my mate to choose the hospital than the actual treatment

We pay insurance but not as bad as the american model , ours is very affordable,,,certainly not free but cheap enough for it not to be a concern ,,,
My wife takes the boys to the hospital if they have a runny nose!,,,,
Oldies ring for an ambulance because its easier and cheaper than a taxi.. ( the ambulance people are getting pissed of with that )
I accept population scales , but eyes and teeth they bare basics
Even nhs had that right
Stephen

BoristheBiter

18th April 2013, 15:56

pete376403

18th April 2013, 17:14

cochlear implant waiting time was 5 years from being told I qualified to actually getting it. (but the same surgeon could have done it the same week if i had insurance)

Can only get one side done as now my heaing is considered good enough.

Same as people who need cataract ops. Once one eye is repaired then vision is considered ok, no need to do the other eye. Or they can go private at around $3000 (when fred hollows foundation can do them for $25 in the pacific islands, etc)

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 00:31

Now the truth comes out.
so what do you get for free? got to compare apples with apples.
Same as you ,,,nothing
U pay tax that goes into a slush fund , I pay city hall insurance which,,,, mostly goes into health

Stephen

unstuck

19th April 2013, 06:56

For your clothes here's a pretty flower.:Punk::Punk:

BoristheBiter

19th April 2013, 07:49

Same as you ,,,nothing
U pay tax that goes into a slush fund , I pay city hall insurance which,,,, mostly goes into health

Stephen

So what is the amount (%) that is taken off you each week by the guberment?

Ocean1

19th April 2013, 08:03

Mate trust me
Its crap

I'm concerned to tell you that I wouldn't trust your expertise regarding public health as far as you could spell it.

I asked a question, which you ignored because the answer didn't fit your version of the facts. And I made a statement, which was absolutely correct, and you simply reply "crap"?

I'd suggest you actually find the facts to refute that statement, but you've demonstrated numberous times that you can't actually see anything that doesn't agree with your version so there's little point.

James Deuce

19th April 2013, 10:23

NZ healthcare is also one of the best in the world, and we have better health care now than at any time in our history, both in terms of total budget allocation and the number of available services.

Really? I'd have to disagree strongly with that one, particularly in the paediatric realm. We have to push and push to keep 2 of our kids healthy, there is no continuity of service, no joining up of the dots. 50 hospital admissions for one child and they still treat every event like a separate, new instance. That one is still undiagnosed as to why he can't walk and talk from time to time, and they will not respond to polite request, grumpy request, media threats, sitting in people's offices, or Ministerial requests. You just get labelled a "hostile" parent and child is left to suffer with no support as a result. What were supposed to do? Go, oh dear, he can't walk and talk and has tourettes, we're very sorry to have bothered you?

The other one is treading a fine line between leukaemia and hypothyroidism and we're the ones organising the blood tests to stay on top of his blood picture because GPs can only request a blood test on a 6 monthly basis, when there is no diagnosis to hand. In the meantime we have to deal with the multiple infections that result from a poor white-cell count on a case by case basis, with, once again, no joining up of the dots.

I am a "hostile" parent. The NZ health system is leaving my kids to suffer and no longer communicates with us when we ask for help. Why is it unacceptable to advocate strongly for you kids?

Also, from my perspective, I can get no treatment for the osteoarthritis that is the result of multiple accidents and fractures as ACC have declared me "OK" and I can't even begin the diagnostic process until I'm over 55, unless the pain, discomfort, and debilitating effects make it difficult to work.

Also there is no follow up treatment for head injury, no mental health service available for chronic conditions unless you pay for something one can't claim back on medical insurance. It is impossible to access these services unless you have an ethnic bias or a diagnosis that may contribute to you harming someone, then some Government funding will kick in. Fall into that zone of not crazy enough to blow up the local petrol station yet, and you're on your own.

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 12:51

When did NZ's public healthcare funding ever cover teeth and eyes, Outside of school children?

NZ healthcare is also one of the best in the world, and we have better health care now than at any time in our history, both in terms of total budget allocation and the number of available services.

The first question , it kinda obvious , do I really have to answer it ,,,ooohhhn go on then.. never,,, as far as I know , except in emergency

The second part I did answer , but I will make it all nice and long and fluffy , yes its good with regards to treatment received ( WHEN ) youu receive it .... but compared to others it not so good , Hell bells people are coming over here , thailand , and I think vietnam? for treatment because its quicker and cheaper , ( google medical holidays as I suggested )

So no not ignoring you , or things that only fit with my version , ( my version of events tends to be shared by a few other people ....how strange is that ! )

Stephen

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 13:08

So what is the amount (%) that is taken off you each week by the guberment?

8% per month covers everything from teeth to eyes to general health , DOESNT cover serious hear defect and some specialised treatment ,( I think)

plus you have to pay 30 % of the treatment cost up front , but you claim ( some not sure how much but its at least half ) of it back at end of year

I can say that last week for a ct scan , Xray, blood test, check up it took 90 min and including the prescription cost 8000 yen ( in the still cheap but annoying price range 2% of this month income )

more facts brought to you today by facts-r-us

Stephen

BoristheBiter

19th April 2013, 14:08

8% per month covers everything from teeth to eyes to general health , DOESNT cover serious hear defect and some specialised treatment ,( I think)

plus you have to pay 30 % of the treatment cost up front , but you claim ( some not sure how much but its at least half ) of it back at end of year

I can say that last week for a ct scan , Xray, blood test, check up it took 90 min and including the prescription cost 8000 yen ( in the still cheap but annoying price range 2% of this month income )

more facts brought to you today by facts-r-us

Stephen

And what about the rest? income tax etc as ours is all lumped in with income tax so all should be included.

Oh and I go for a ct next week cost $0, blood tests for the last month $0 prescription for pain meds $3
I don't know what the exchange rate is but I think I came out better off.

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 14:25

And what about the rest? income tax etc as ours is all lumped in with income tax so all should be included.

Oh and I go for a ct next week cost $0, blood tests for the last month $0 prescription for pain meds $3
I don't know what the exchange rate is but I think I came out better off.

that looks cheap. they must like you , last time I had an xray in NZ it was 70 dollars

not sure what my income tax is ,,around 5 % I think ,plus some "rates"

Stephen

BoristheBiter

19th April 2013, 14:32

that looks cheap. they must like you , last time I had an xray in NZ it was 70 dollars

not sure what my income tax is ,,around 5 % I think ,plus some "rates"

Stephen

Just depends on, age, how life threatening it could be, and if you have a good GP.

So you only pay 13% in taxes? does that pay for roads, schools etc?

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 14:46

Just depends on, age, how life threatening it could be, and if you have a good GP.

So you only pay 13% in taxes? does that pay for roads, schools etc?

one assumes so, highways have tolls

Stephen

Ocean1

19th April 2013, 16:55

Really?

Yes, really. There’s more resources available for public health now, and that translates into both higher numbers and a wider range of health interventions.

I know you’ve had grief from the system, I don’t know whether the services you want are funded or not. But here’s the thing: it’s simply not possible to deny someone, especially kids whatever they need to stay healthy. It’s also not possible to supply all of that. Having said that, I agree some of the simple organisational and administrative issues you talk about aren’t acceptable.

Given an unlimited budget every one of us would, during our lives consume more in health services than we’ve contributed in tax. There’s always going to be people we can’t afford to fix, the trick is making your health dollar stretch as far as possible. We’ve managed that very well in the past. Pharmac essentially thumb their noses at world legal opinion to bulk-buy generic drugs at way, way less than the price the major producers charge. ACC manage to stitch us up for well under the international average for ED admissions.

Overlaid on that is an age old tradition of politicians fiddling with the system, “because it’s obscene that such-and-such a service/drug is being denied one of their uniquely deserving constituents”. Eventually, your list of funded procedures/drugs becomes far larger than you can afford. How do you then meet budget? You allow waiting lists to balloon until either funding catches up or enough people fall off the back of the list to shrink the service numbers to meet the budget. Sad stuff.

Politicians again: Public health WILL meet these here new waiting list limits! Now what? Across the board, public health service suppliers begin a general unwritten policy of disrupting access to services people are perfectly entitled to. My torn ACL is, apparently “age related” damage. My hearing loss isn’t quite exactly typical industrial-related damage, sorry. Not just sad, but unfair.

Enough. Keep fighting for your kids, Jim. If I can help in any way short of re-remortgaging the house let me know.

Ocean1

19th April 2013, 17:05

The first question , it kinda obvious , do I really have to answer it ,,,ooohhhn go on then.. never,,, as far as I know , except in emergency

Thank you. So your contention that the service is worse than it was is, in fact bollox.

The second part I did answer , but I will make it all nice and long and fluffy , yes its good with regards to treatment received ( WHEN ) youu receive it .... but compared to others it not so good , Hell bells people are coming over here , thailand , and I think vietnam? for treatment because its quicker and cheaper , ( google medical holidays as I suggested )

If you compare NZ to other complete public systems it's quite good.

The medical holliday I'm familliar with. I approve, it's a new and exciting control on unreasonable western specialist's revenue expectations and OTT safety and arse-covering costs.

Did you see The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel? Fucking brilliant, the crusty old racist old bag begrudgingly thanks the surgeon, who replies: "Yes, it appears that if you do something often enough you get quite good at it".

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 18:26

Thank you. So you're contention that the service is worse than it was is, in fact bollox.

".

nice try , youre clutching at straws and you know it

Stephen

BoristheBiter

19th April 2013, 18:47

one assumes so, highways have tolls

Stephen

I still would rather live in NZ then most other places in the world (have to say most as I haven't been to all)

Something money can't buy.

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 19:28

I still would rather live in NZ then most other places in the world (have to say most as I haven't been to all)

Something money can't buy.I looked at both , my plan is to be self sufficient , as per Voltaire candide , because , I think he got it right
I did /am doing a few trials , I looked at where that would be ....( i will still keep my wee townhouse here )

both Japan and NZ work out the same or near enough

prices , available land ( nz tends to be slightly bigger ) for the price

the only things that tend to sway me towards NZ , are the ( how do I say it ) the can do ? just do it ? oh yea need a shed , just build it !! kind of attitude ( at least among the people I know )

Wallpapering here is a job for a trades person , and trying to get my gas welding set organised is a nightmare !

but what worries me is getting caught in the poverty /pushing sh up trap, in NZ ( been there done that , not interested any more )

As for living around the world , I have been to a few places, they all have there good points and bad , to live here in Japan I have found to be easier than NZ , effort /return sort of thing

yes , if I could change anything , I would love a bigger garden and a more old school engineering shops like you have in NZ , ( I e walk to the shops and buy bolts from blackwells or a spanner from george henry )

Stephen

ive got to get my phone repaired , what’s betting they try to sell me an iphone ! ,,,,,hey ho ! :brick:

unstuck

19th April 2013, 19:34

DIE on organic poison gas. :Punk::Punk:

Brian d marge

19th April 2013, 19:36

DIE on organic poison gas. :Punk::Punk:

I take it you dont know any vegetarians then !!!:eek5:

Stephen

unstuck

19th April 2013, 19:48

Serpent's egg's already hatched.:Punk::Punk:

puddytat

19th April 2013, 20:55

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8552746/Sweeping-GCSB-changes-announced

"New Zealand (or as he would have it "NuZillin") technology has been sourced (or tried to be) for incorporation into WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION"

Its been a bad morning. this isnt helping.

/rant.

So thats where Kim whathisface has been getting his gizmos for his flying penile extensions then...and if it aint him then which one of you fellas is playing with things in yer shed that you shouldnt?
Is our spy squad responsible for Rocketcon's firewall as well?
Stephen Joyce is comparing the Oppositions plans on power to the Nth Korean Regime.....what a dick. I had a grudging respect for him but he caught his masters condition. Arrogantitis.
Honestly I think capatalism is as dangeous as any dictator. We play by their rules and are as trapped in this system as the Nth Koreans are in theirs so much so that we will follow their dogma 'till the bitter end...
But every fucking week these people are chipping away at every opportunity at our legal system & making it easier to control us & to allow them to continue to do the work of the true master, meanwhile propigating & watering that trickle down effect that only fear can bring.
Every other week there is another resource extractive industry is given the o.k. Usually just after they've ammended some law to either circumvent obstruction legally or to prevent people from protesting against it.
Every other week something is taken away from "US", by them. Normally its associated with a public service or some other form of a societies support services.
Every other week John forgets something.Important.
Every other week there is something dodgey crawling out of Parliament & into the media ....

We forget all to easily how short a period it has been that we have had rights at all.

Flip

19th April 2013, 21:39

What amazes me here is how many of you got suckered into voting centre right cause it was "good for the country", then dont like centre right politics. What the fuck did you expect?

Big fat business not to get their hands on the assets, your assets, you know the ones owned by the goverment after they have been devalued to the max. More punishment for blue colar and less for white collar crimes. Greater powers to the secret police.

Rant over.

Don't be stupid and vote these w@nkers in next time.

Now the rant is over.

mashman

19th April 2013, 22:25

The man has a damned good point

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIHsHLnCcAAogGX.jpg:large

unstuck

20th April 2013, 08:20

You will croak you little clown, when you mess with president Brown.:Punk::Punk:

gwigs

20th April 2013, 08:27

This isnt far from the truth.

Zedder

20th April 2013, 17:43

[QUOTE=mashman;1130533892]The man has a damned good point

It used to be the feudal system aided and abetted by the church, now it's the corporates aided and abetted by the politicians. Their objective is still the same.

Brian d marge

20th April 2013, 22:36

[QUOTE=mashman;1130533892]The man has a damned good point

It used to be the feudal system aided and abnetted by the church, now it's the corporates aided and abetted by the politicians. Their objective is still the same.

haahaha David ike reckons, its the lizards from another planet...they are the leaders of our race. .... almost seems true !!! if ya stand back Donkey kinda looks like a salamander .....

Stephen

scissorhands

20th April 2013, 22:43

silverbackshttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6ilCSBRpvvNOftA5Z6RMc3M5v_8Xpp LHoKdqL9eMaQC2BtG7J

mashman

20th April 2013, 23:25

It used to be the feudal system aided and abetted by the church, now it's the corporates aided and abetted by the politicians. Their objective is still the same.

All the more reason to nip this shit in the bud :msn-wink:

scissorhands

20th April 2013, 23:35

Imagine countries like Indonesia and China. Global fascism is bound to rub off down here, no death squads yet:chase:

Zedder

21st April 2013, 09:29

All the more reason to nip this shit in the bud :msn-wink:

I am however concerned with your Welsh phrase...

mashman

21st April 2013, 10:03

I am however concerned with your Welsh phrase...

It's a statement of fact, not a directive

paturoa

21st April 2013, 10:26

Usarka

21st April 2013, 10:35

2) vote no confidence in the system, just take a vivid with you and write "it's all bullshit, fuck the corporate world" on your ballot

I drew a cock and balls on the ballot form last election because I couldn't trust any of the pillocks more than anyone else. And I thought it was a sure fire bet, couldn't lose either way!

What pissed me off was the stats afterwards. They listed the number of votes for each party, and then the number of people who did not vote. My eloquently drawn john thomas didn't even get a mention. Facists.

mashman

21st April 2013, 11:23

Merkins have about 315m people and we have 4.5. That is about 70 times our population. We have had 4 domestic bombings in the last 60 years and the yanks have had 83 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

So if they had the same nutter ratio as us, they should have had about 280 bombings.

Conclusion based on those facts is that we do indeed need some form of proactive intervention to avert the nut jobs.

I've read the thread and there are a variety of views as to do we need any, how, or how much?

Now for an opinion. I and a yes please for domestic "spying", on the conditions that there is a transparent (to the public) oversight and a set of rules including warrants, for economic, nutters (doing harm to people) and organised crime.

You'll be ok with chipping people then? Then you'll be ok with cognitive recalibration for all who do not meet the strict definition of a good citizen? Then you'll be ok with being told that your IQ isn't up to anything and you should be chemically sterilised? Then you'll be ok with being put down because you're using up valuable resources?

Spying on economic terrorists eh. Fuck that, let's just go straight to monitoring the leaders of every corporate and government in the world and streaming their lives on the internet 24/7 so that they can be watched. No need for spying then and most likely less extremist economic terrorism. That or just dump the financial system entirely and it won't be a consideration at all.

paturoa

21st April 2013, 11:43

You'll be ok with chipping people then? Then you'll be ok with cognitive recalibration for all who do not meet the strict definition of a good citizen? Then you'll be ok with being told that your IQ isn't up to anything and you should be chemically sterilised? Then you'll be ok with being put down because you're using up valuable resources?

Spying on economic terrorists eh. Fuck that, let's just go straight to monitoring the leaders of every corporate and government in the world and streaming their lives on the internet 24/7 so that they can be watched. No need for spying then and most likely less extremist economic terrorism. That or just dump the financial system entirely and it won't be a consideration at all.

Not sure how you got from me being OK for domestic "spying" with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants; to chipping people, cognitive recalibration (whatever that is) and chemical sterilisation.

Perhaps you should be chemically sterialised, if low IQ is the criteria?

Trolling aside, there is a small percentage of people out there who are completly evil (aka nutters). You are clear on what you're against, so what are you for. How do you propose that we deal with these people.

"Evil" people are operating in our economy too. They have no morals and would fuck you and me over so that we operate like some of the genuine 3rd world shit holes. So rather than shooting at that too, what is your solution?

GrayWolf

21st April 2013, 12:00

If you'd grown up in a Port town - or had anything to do with the shipping industry in NZ you'd realise where Ellipsis is coming from. Given a mandate - or what passes for one - the tories will always go the same way. Look at Key's first term then compare what's happening now....
One fact that Key's lot conveniently forgets when they say they want pay parity with Oz is the very strong unions there which maintain the high pay for the workers.
when I see him come out with something on TV, I'm dead sure that a focus group has given him the assurance it'll be worth votes...he doesn't move unless it's worth something. Teflon man lives....

Ok, Ellipsis grew up in a Port town, as I pointed out elsewhere, my father was a Coal Industry worker, so I grew up in that environment....
Port Workers? When I lived In Invergumboot my neighbour was a docker... And the times he was paid to sit in a smoko room and do nothing by his own admission was almost unbeleivable....
However I digress, in 1991/2 when we migrated here, we shipped some household effects and the car and bike over... We paid for a container and the car was in there with a few effects...bearing in mind this is 20+yrs ago?? To 'unload' the container... which entailed it being on the dock and the vehicle simply being pushed out of the container and into a bonded warehouse 10 metre's away? the 'Dockside cost' was $600. That 'Fee' was PURELY for the dockers to 'unload' the container. and not the other 'Port fess'.
it was CHEAPER for me to.. pay for the container to be transported to the Customs storage yard, get an 'agent' to do the paperwork AND then pay for the container to be shipped back to the dock.

Yeh the Union's certainly make sure they get a 'good rate of pay'

mashman

21st April 2013, 12:10

Not sure how you got from me being OK for domestic "spying" with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants; to chipping people, cognitive recalibration (whatever that is) and chemical sterilisation.

Perhaps you should be chemically sterialised, if low IQ is the criteria?

Trolling aside, there is a small percentage of people out there who are completly evil (aka nutters). You are clear on what you're against, so what are you for. How do you propose that we deal with these people.

"Evil" people are operating in our economy too. They have no morals and would fuck you and me over so that we operate like some of the genuine 3rd world shit holes. So rather than shooting at that too, what is your solution?

How did we get to where we are today? Coz it ain't gonna stop with your definitions above.

See, you're there already. Praps we should just skip to you wasting resources :niceone:

How have we found them up til now? Why the sudden urge to tighten the screw given that we've had 4 domestic instances in the last 60 years? Given that these people are successful and otherwise unassuming in many cases, how can you deal with them? Realistically all you can do is to try not to give them a reason to be evil. It ain't like the major terrorist groups haven't got a grievance that has been dismissed or even ignored. There is a reason for why people do these things and it ain't just out of being evil. Not saying there aren't evil folk.

I mentioned my solution above. Dump the financial system and implement some for of Resource Based Economy where goods/services are free to everyone. That'd stop the modern day economic hitmen in their tracks and you could offer the 3rd world a much better lifestyle where budget isn't a constraint. It might even remove the qualms that the crazy's have with the rest of us.

puddytat

21st April 2013, 12:11

Its for me the fact that they are able to do what is necessary for their benefit, when required. Meanwhile we are not told anything at fucking all about international trade agreement negotiations that are more powerful than our own domestic laws.Its seemingly o.k for trade agreements to be done secretly because of commercial interests but we the people are a different story. That'll be becuse they really dont give a shit about us really & yet bow to the power of international corporates. We are lucky in some ways that our experts are seemingly incompetent in keeping things secret, at least when it comes to domestic issues...normally it'd result in a dept. been told to get their shit together, but no we change the laws instead.
At what point does protest become illegal? When it suits them & their masters.

On another note.....if you are not happy with the choices available on your voting form, dont deface it with remarks or images that show your dissapointment in the lack of a suitable choice....it'll be simply discarded. The way to show your lack of confidence is to go in & cast a COMPLETELY BLANK voting form....it will be valid still, and will count as a vote of no confidence. If the 30% had done that that'd not got off the couch for what ever reason, JohnCo.would not have the mandate that he reckons he has.
Personally I think that it should be compulsory to vote. Just like having to do a Tax return.

mashman

21st April 2013, 12:20

At what point does protest become illegal?

On another note.....if you are not happy with the choices available on your voting form, dont deface it with remarks or images that show your dissapointment in the lack of a suitable choice....it'll be simply discarded. The way to show your lack of confidence is to go in & cast a COMPLETELY BLANK voting form....it will be valid still, and will count as a vote of no confidence. If the 30% had done that that'd not got off the couch for what ever reason, JohnCo.would not have the mandate that he reckons he has.
Personally I think that it should be compulsory to vote. Just like having to do a Tax return.

When you haven't applied for the correct permit :D

Get your foot off my rights man. I'm already "forced" to register. to that end they should take my not voting for any of them as a vote of no confidence.

puddytat

21st April 2013, 12:21

[QUOTE=mashman;How have we found them up til now? Why the sudden urge to tighten the screw given that we've had 4 domestic instances in the last 60 years? .[/QUOTE]

I think its because they realise that some arnt going to sit back & do nothin...When the people lose faith in the process, when they feel that they arnt being listened to or of "no account," then its inevitable that some will stand by their beliefs & go about trying to force change on their terms.

mashman

21st April 2013, 12:37

I think its because they realise that some arnt going to sit back & do nothin...When the people lose faith in the process, when they feel that they arnt being listened to or of "no account," then its inevitable that some will stand by their beliefs & go about trying to force change on their terms.

Agreed... and not a tin foil hat in sight. The funny thing is though, those who are calling for that change that realise that they have to use the current system against itself to get the desired result, make their intentions known to as many people as possible. They're not exactly hiding are they?

puddytat

21st April 2013, 13:42

Agreed... and not a tin foil hat in sight. The funny thing is though, those who are calling for that change that realise that they have to use the current system against itself to get the desired result, make their intentions known to as many people as possible. They're not exactly hiding are they?

No they certainly arnt ,its the beauty of Democracy!
But at some point the ideal gets lost & politics step in. That & money & Human instinct....

http://www.idea.int/vt/compulsory_voting.cfm doesnt seem to be the answer according to this so I might give up on that one.:(

Pretty much given up on what can be done with the World as such, but Im passionate about my country & we should be doing all we can to keep it here and not in foreign financial hands.And that the Govt. & its Depts are not fucking corrupt or breaking the Law. Or changing Laws that could effect our civil rights.
Do an Iceland. Weve got a better climate for a start. What are they going to do....threaten us with a WMD? Or just amp up the Weekly Media Drivel .That'd also have the bonus of lowering the dollar....

BrandNZ. Clean & Sustainable.

mashman

21st April 2013, 15:45

No they certainly arnt ,its the beauty of Democracy!
But at some point the ideal gets lost & politics step in. That & money & Human instinct....

http://www.idea.int/vt/compulsory_voting.cfm doesnt seem to be the answer according to this so I might give up on that one.:(

Pretty much given up on what can be done with the World as such, but Im passionate about my country & we should be doing all we can to keep it here and not in foreign financial hands.And that the Govt. & its Depts are not fucking corrupt or breaking the Law. Or changing Laws that could effect our civil rights.
Do an Iceland. Weve got a better climate for a start. What are they going to do....threaten us with a WMD? Or just amp up the Weekly Media Drivel .That'd also have the bonus of lowering the dollar....

BrandNZ. Clean & Sustainable.

heh, democracy. The ultimate in irony. We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.

Meh, it really isn't required anyway :laugh:

I know what needs to be done with the world. So do TPTB... but alas there's no money in it innit. Doing an Iceland could be fun. We'd probably be penalised in some way under some stupid WTO guideline.

Ahhh yes, brand NZ. I believe a few have done that recently, a bad place to do business, a great place to buy cheap utilities and land etc... :rofl:

Oscar

21st April 2013, 17:12

heh, democracy. The ultimate in irony. We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.

Could you get any more arrogant or condescending toward the average voter?
You must be so special.

However, you don't vote, so as usual, you're talking bollox.
So what gives you the right to speak for "us" (the poor downtrodden voter who you look down your nose at)?
"We" don't have the benefits of your tinfoil chapeau or apparent heavy drug habit.

Usarka

21st April 2013, 17:47

BoristheBiter

21st April 2013, 18:09

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

Yes and no.
Yes they spied on NZ residents/citizen and they are not allowed to do that, unless asked by the SIS or police, for which they had been.
But they can't do that as they are NZ residents/citizen's, but they can as they were asked by the SIS/police.

This happened because the laws that Labour put it place when they were last in power had holes you could drive a bus through, so all they are doing is fixing the holes.

Nothing will change other than they will now need a court signed warrant.

mashman

21st April 2013, 18:45

Could you get any more arrogant or condescending toward the average voter?
You must be so special.

However, you don't vote, so as usual, you're talking bollox.
So what gives you the right to speak for "us" (the poor downtrodden voter who you look down your nose at)?
"We" don't have the benefits of your tinfoil chapeau or apparent heavy drug habit.

I could, yes. Are you an average voter?
Really? Or you could be missing the point.

Exceptional criteria you have there for allowing people to have an opinion on how ineffective their elected, bwaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa, representatives seem to be. Carry in voting, there's a good chap and just sit back and bask in the glory days by remembering the days that you used to fight for what was right.
You must be one of "them" then. So please exclude yourself from the "us" that I quoted. Those who identify with the "us", will identify with the "us". Not looking down my nose at anyone, but am certainly sticking my fingers up at "them".
Sorry, that's your problem... although you could open your eyes (I know for a fact that that is possible) and you could well hammer the fuckin shit out of illegal substances like I don't. In both cases you're holding yourself back.

Usarka

21st April 2013, 18:49

Yes they spied on NZ residents/citizen and they are not allowed to do that, unless asked by the SIS or police, for which they had been.
But they can't do that as they are NZ residents/citizen's, but they can as they were asked by the SIS/police.

This happened because the laws that Labour put it place when they were last in power had holes you could drive a bus through, so all they are doing is fixing the holes.

Why isn't the issue. They knew spying on citizens isn't legal and they chose to ignore it. That bit wasn't hard to work out, and even if it was ambiguous I'm sure our top spy agency could figure out how to clarify things.

The alternative is that they're incompetent. I don't like either scenario.

paturoa

21st April 2013, 18:51

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

Usarka

21st April 2013, 18:53

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

Sigh. Two can play at that game. Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that "the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants" and that appropriate warrants were got.

HenryDorsetCase

21st April 2013, 18:56

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

Yup, then when caught with their hand down djonkeys trousers (who hasthe FBI's and the RIAA's hand up his arse all the way to the eyebrows) they changed the law to make what they did legal.

Don't worry, its only a shower.

HenryDorsetCase

21st April 2013, 18:59

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

I dont think that is right. the key issue here is the fucked up warrant (which in my view should invalidate ANY legal case against the New Zealander of the year: in the US there is a doctrine called the fruit of the poisoned tree which should apply here.) But leaving that aside, they've decided to change the lor anyway. If it was only the warrant, then there would be no need to "clarify" the status of the SIS and po po and the GCSB would there?

Oscar

21st April 2013, 19:04

I could, yes. Are you an average voter?
Really? Or you could be missing the point.

Exceptional criteria you have there for allowing people to have an opinion on how ineffective their elected, bwaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa, representatives seem to be. Carry in voting, there's a good chap and just sit back and bask in the glory days by remembering the days that you used to fight for what was right.
You must be one of "them" then. So please exclude yourself from the "us" that I quoted. Those who identify with the "us", will identify with the "us". Not looking down my nose at anyone, but am certainly sticking my fingers up at "them".
Sorry, that's your problem... although you could open your eyes (I know for a fact that that is possible) and you could well hammer the fuckin shit out of illegal substances like I don't. In both cases you're holding yourself back.

Missing the point?
That's pretty rich. By definition your "point" should be concise and informative.
You don't have a point though, you just blather in conspiratorial generalities about how "they" are ripping us off or how "our" votes are ineffective.

Why don't you try some intellectual rigor - when you express an opinion, why don't you either use the first person singular, or actually tell us who "we" are.
Instead of making half arsed generalisations like some hippy undergrad trying to impress the girls, like - "We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.", how about some facts?

In conclusion, if you really don't indulge in mind altering substances, that's quite sad, because if you were hitting the crack pipe it would explain your blather.
If it ain't drugs, I guess you're just another sad crackpot.

paturoa

21st April 2013, 19:07

Sigh. I was first!

but anyway
But at that time the advice he had from both the GCSB and the domestic spy agency Security Intelligence Service (SIS) legal team was that they believed "it was absolutely legally correct what they were doing".

Your turn.

And I'm after a reference that told them at the time that it was illegal. Not a current one.

I'm still in the same place, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants it is OK.

paturoa

21st April 2013, 19:13

I dont think that is right. the key issue here is the fucked up warrant (which in my view should invalidate ANY legal case against the New Zealander of the year: in the US there is a doctrine called the fruit of the poisoned tree which should apply here.) But leaving that aside, they've decided to change the lor anyway. If it was only the warrant, then there would be no need to "clarify" the status of the SIS and po po and the GCSB would there?

Agree, there has not been suitable / sufficent clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants.

Same question then applies for me, do we trust out pollies et al to front with them?

mashman

21st April 2013, 19:20

Missing the point?
That's pretty rich. By definition your "point" should be concise and informative.
You don't have a point though, you just blather in conspiratorial generalities about how "they" are ripping us off or how "our" votes are ineffective.

Why don't you try some intellectual rigor - when you express an opinion, why don't you either use the first person singular, or actually tell us who "we" are.
Instead of making half arsed generalisations like some hippy undergrad trying to impress the girls, like - "We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.", how about some facts?

In conclusion, if you really don't indulge in mind altering substances, that's quite sad, because if you were hitting the crack pipe it would explain your blather.
If it ain't drugs, I guess you're just another sad crackpot.

:rofl:@intellectual rigor... Yup. You've missed the point entirely.

Oscar

21st April 2013, 19:33

:rofl:@intellectual rigor... Yup. You've missed the point entirely.

Nope, pretty sure that was a bullseye.
You'd rather use smilies than your words, and Dog help us if you actually posted anything specific...

mashman

21st April 2013, 19:46

Nope, pretty sure that was a bullseye.
You'd rather use smilies than your words, and Dog help us if you actually posted anything specific...

Of course that's what you think.
I'm sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.

Brian d marge

22nd April 2013, 00:11

Why don't you try some intellectual rigor - when you express an opinion, why don't you either use the first person singular, or actually tell us who "we" are.
Instead of making half arsed generalisations like some hippy undergrad trying to impress the girls, like - "We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.", how about some facts?
.

by using the collective "wee" does that include the singular "oscar "

Facts , hmm them like the ones that the "ones" steeped in the older vernacular tend not to post

Here IS a fact that could start the ball rolling , rego is 591.39 a year hahahahahahaha ...

a reaming we will go , a reaming we will go , hi ho a merrie oh a reaming we will go !!!!! ( insert reamed smiley on floor )

insert 3rd form toilet humour ( spelt with the french "u" for just plain kinkiness)

Stephen

BoristheBiter

22nd April 2013, 09:39

Why isn't the issue. They knew spying on citizens isn't legal and they chose to ignore it. That bit wasn't hard to work out, and even if it was ambiguous I'm sure our top spy agency could figure out how to clarify things.

The alternative is that they're incompetent. I don't like either scenario.

But that is why the law is being changed because under the law it is a catch 22 as I stated in my post above.

everyone at some point has been incompetent but you move on.

Don't like it, neither do I, but crime carries on regardless of what we think as criminals don't play by any rules until they get caught.

We are being spied on every day, just by whom changes by the hour.

Banditbandit

22nd April 2013, 10:48

We are being spied on every day, just by whom changes by the hour.

That does not make it acceptable. We (meaning all New Zealanders) should be concerned about this and limit as much as possible ...

BoristheBiter

22nd April 2013, 11:35

That does not make it acceptable. We (meaning all New Zealanders) should be concerned about this and limit as much as possible ...

Meh they can spy on me all they want.
I am pillar of society ........ so basically i live a pretty boring life.

I have more important things to worry about because really this is a non issue.

Banditbandit

22nd April 2013, 11:46

BoristheBiter

22nd April 2013, 12:26

Yeah .. it's clear we come from opposite ends of the spectrum on this one - I have nothing to hide (any more) ... but I don't like the idea of them spying on my - I like my privacy ... and won't give it up ...

I do everthing I can to limit how much a Government knows about me ... and I know I fail .. but I still try ..

thing is I get your point and would love to live in a world where we can just tolerate, never mind get a long with, each other and the need for this would disappear.

avgas

22nd April 2013, 14:20

1) don't vote.

2) vote no confidence in the system, just take a vivid with you and write "it's all bullshit, fuck the corporate world" on your ballot

3) winston will keep them honest...
Did 1 and 2 already. Also I started my voting life in BOP - having met the dude several times, I am not likely to vote for him.
He has no ambition for young people - and my theory is if you are not looking for a future, they past is bound to haunt you.

Wish that Mcgillicudy serious party (or whatever it was called) still existed. Was like a polite way to say "Fuck you" on a voting form. Now a vote for the greens is even considered genuine.

Swoop

22nd April 2013, 14:45

The scary part of all this?
Where is any form of competent and capable opposition to National?

Labour is still wandering around leaderless. The Lunatic Fringe Party (greens) are spouting their normal rhetoric, which has delusions of grandeur but essentially unfeasable.

Mana party?

Well bugger me with a fishfork. The Maori Party are looking sensible in comparison.

Why isn't the issue. They knew spying on citizens isn't legal and they chose to ignore it. The alternative is that they're incompetent.
I don"t think they give a fuck about their oversight requirements. A bit of a rogue monkey which has been off of its leash for quite a while now. A bit like the police not being worried about having cases "investigated" by the "Independant police complaints authority".

BoristheBiter

22nd April 2013, 16:00

The scary part of all this?
Well bugger me with a fishfork. The Maori Party are looking sensible in comparison.

.

That's only because they know the old saying,

"Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

They are keeping silent.

oldrider

22nd April 2013, 16:39

Does it matter?
Out of interest what do fellow KB's think I should do next election. Have already voted National, Labour and Greens and don't like any of them any more.
Who should I vote for next?

It doesn't matter who you vote for in NZ any more because you will always end up with an MMP government and nothing important really changes!

MMP is just like re-shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic ... it still sank!

But you all knew that already didn't you ... it's called conditioning! :rolleyes:

BoristheBiter

22nd April 2013, 19:01

MMP is just like re-shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic ... it still sank!

More like MMP is the iceberg. it sinks the unsinkable then drifts off into the darkness.

Brian d marge

22nd April 2013, 20:51

fuck off , must spread the love ....

sorry fella you aint gettin no love due to site rules

Stephen

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 07:46

sorry fella you aint gettin no love due to site rules

Stephen

Thank fuck for that. we can all sleep easier tonight knowing that.:eek5:

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 07:50

I can't be bothered starting a new thread as most opinionated to the partial asset sell off are on here.

Is the Labour/green idea what you hope will come in being?

scott411

23rd April 2013, 08:00

I can't be bothered starting a new thread as most opinionated to the partial asset sell off are on here.

Is the Labour/green idea what you hope will come in being?

I think the $6 a week they are saying it will save will be eaten up and overtaken by the ETS scheme they will bring in,

and who are they going to tax to come up with the money they lose from the devidends they would have got?

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 08:07

I think the $6 a week they are saying it will save will be eaten up and overtaken by the ETS scheme they will bring in,

and who are they going to tax to come up with the money they lose from the devidends they would have got?

Us "rich pricks" of course.

funny the spin on things. Labour will save us a massive $1 a day but it only costs a low $1 a day to feed the starving.

I think the worst part is if they do get in and they do implement this what state will the SOE be in ten years.
I just keep having flash backs of Kiwirail.

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 09:48

thing is I get your point and would love to live in a world where we can just tolerate, never mind get a long with, each other and the need for this would disappear.

THat's a way too apathetic response ... you can make a difference in the world .. we can make it that way ..

I can't be bothered starting a new thread as most opinionated to the partial asset sell off are on here.

Is the Labour/green idea what you hope will come in being?

Sort of .. Electricity is a public good (a bit like water - but man-made. WE are so reliant on it now it has become a public good) ... and it needs to be treated as such and not as a profit-making commodity ..

I think the $6 a week they are saying it will save will be eaten up and overtaken by the ETS scheme they will bring in,

and who are they going to tax to come up with the money they lose from the devidends they would have got?

The $6 a week does not sound like much - unless you live on the pension Unemployment benefit - and then it is 3.5% of your income (the saving that is) ... and for a pensioner it is 1.5% of their income .. on my salary it is 0.6 percent ... so it's fuck all for the workers and a lot more for the unemployed and pensioners

.

I think the worst part is if they do get in and they do implement this what state will the SOE be in ten years.
I just keep having flash backs of Kiwirail.

Can't be any worse than Solid Energy under a National-led Government ...

And remember that it was the Labour Government of the 1980s that started the deregulation and privatisation of the electricity industry ... you all have short memories .. why is the rightwing so afraid of Labour when Roger Douglas and Co proved they could out neo-liberal the neo-liberals ???

oldrider

23rd April 2013, 09:54

Us "rich pricks" of course.

funny the spin on things. Labour will save us a massive $1 a day but it only costs a low $1 a day to feed the starving.

I think the worst part is if they do get in and they do implement this what state will the SOE be in ten years.
I just keep having flash backs of Kiwirail.

It was the last Labour/Green MMP government that caused the massive increases in electricity prices.

The size of the government holding through it's SOE's was grown by the deregulation of electricity and absorption of local power board retail infrastructure and markets into them to create the electricity competitive market as we have today.

Labour/Green came into power and saw what a large cash cow it now had and stopped the break up and sale of the soe's and milked it for all it was worth!

There was no effective competition because the (Labour) government owned five of the major electricity generators, distributors and retailers, a far larger share than they had before deregulation of the electricity industry!

Now Labour/Greens want to totally nationalise the industry to lower the price of electricity to it's customers/taxpayers read "voters" because they have run out of ideas and have nothing else to temp the electorate with! ... Yeah right!

Oscar

23rd April 2013, 10:16

It was the last Labour/Green MMP government that caused the massive increases in electricity prices.

The size of the government holding through it's SOE's was grown by the deregulation of electricity and absorption of local power board retail infrastructure and markets into them to create the electricity competitive market as we have today.

Labour/Green came into power and saw what a large cash cow it now had and stopped the break up and sale of the soe's and milked it for all it was worth!

There was no effective competition because the (Labour) government owned five of the major electricity generators, distributors and retailers, a far larger share than they had before deregulation of the electricity industry!

Now Labour/Greens want to totally nationalise the industry to lower the price of electricity to it's customers/taxpayers read "voters" because they have run out of ideas and have nothing else to temp the electorate with! ... Yeah right!

Good heavens! I find myself agreeing with you!

This is the most wonton piece of destructive and stupid vote buying since Muldoon’s first home buyers mortgage rebate. Notwithstanding the effect on the Mighty River Power float, this has caused a sharp decline in the share value of other listed power generators/suppliers. This will be reflected in a slump in Kiwi Saver accounts for all.

Brian Gaynor estimated that the damage (to the value of MRP and other listed companies) runs to $500m.

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 10:51

Brian Gaynor estimated that the damage (to the value of MRP and other listed companies) runs to $500m.

Oh look ... 1.3% of GDP ... such a major loss for a public good.

Oscar

23rd April 2013, 11:00

Oh look ... 1.3% of GDP ... such a major loss for a public good.

How is sabotaging retirements savings in the public good?

mashman

23rd April 2013, 11:07

How is sabotaging retirements savings in the public good?

:killingme :weird: like anyone gives a fuck.

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 11:55

How is sabotaging retirements savings in the public good?

No ... lower electricity prices is the public good ... (and then maybe some people can save for their retirement instead of dipping into the safety net called Benefits .. $6 a week = $36 a month ... will soon mount up)

Oh yeah .. and just maybe some of the companies that the retirement savings are invested in will make a bigger profit because they will be paying less for electricity ... therefore reducing their costs ... increasing their profits .. thereby increasing the share dividend and the share price ... is it possible that such a senario will offset the negative senario being pushed by the right wing scaremongers ... Increased dividend/price in some comapnies offsettign the drop in share price/dividend of the electricty companies .. and the effects will cancel out each other ???

So retirement savings will not be decreased .. and because of a higher profit/higher dividend may actually be increased???

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 12:02

:killingme :weird: like anyone gives a fuck.

Actually, some of us with money in kiwi saver and with less than 10 years to the magic 65 years old may well give a fuck ... (but not enough for me to change my vote .. I'll take the risk .. I reckon it wil be offset by higher profits/higher dividends in other companies ...)

oldrider

23rd April 2013, 12:40

No ... lower electricity prices is the public good ... (and then maybe some people can save for their retirement instead of dipping into the safety net called Benefits .. $6 a week = $36 a month ... will soon mount up)

Oh yeah .. and just maybe some of the companies that the retirement savings are invested in will make a bigger profit because they will be paying less for electricity ... therefore reducing their costs ... increasing their profits .. thereby increasing the share dividend and the share price ... is it possible that such a senario will offset the negative senario being pushed by the right wing scaremongers ... Increased dividend/price in some comapnies offsettign the drop in share price/dividend of the electricty companies .. and the effects will cancel out each other ???

So retirement savings will not be decreased .. and because of a higher profit/higher dividend may actually be increased???

And you expect all this to be delivered by a Labour /Green etc government? ... Yeah, right! ... Like they did over their last nine year reign!

Dream on mate, dream on! I have seen a lot of Labour governments in my time and the only significant thing they ever achieved was daylight saving! :rolleyes:

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 13:03

THat's a way too apathetic response ... you can make a difference in the world .. we can make it that way ..

had a bad day.

Sort of .. Electricity is a public good (a bit like water - but man-made. WE are so reliant on it now it has become a public good) ... and it needs to be treated as such and not as a profit-making commodity ..

yes

The $6 a week does not sound like much - unless you live on the pension Unemployment benefit - and then it is 3.5% of your income (the saving that is) ... and for a pensioner it is 1.5% of their income .. on my salary it is 0.6 percent ... so it's fuck all for the workers and a lot more for the unemployed and pensioners

Sorry I guess you know my stance on the dole. pensions that's a thread in it's self.

Can't be any worse than Solid Energy under a National-led Government ...

I guess we will have to wait and see but Labour track record is pretty shit.

And remember that it was the Labour Government of the 1980s that started the deregulation and privatisation of the electricity industry ... you all have short memories .. why is the rightwing so afraid of Labour when Roger Douglas and Co proved they could out neo-liberal the neo-liberals ???

I haven't forgotten but we all know Labour are crap with money and the greens just like to print more.

better the devil you know?

Oscar

23rd April 2013, 13:49

No ... lower electricity prices is the public good ... (and then maybe some people can save for their retirement instead of dipping into the safety net called Benefits .. $6 a week = $36 a month ... will soon mount up)

Oh yeah .. and just maybe some of the companies that the retirement savings are invested in will make a bigger profit because they will be paying less for electricity ... therefore reducing their costs ... increasing their profits .. thereby increasing the share dividend and the share price ... is it possible that such a senario will offset the negative senario being pushed by the right wing scaremongers ... Increased dividend/price in some comapnies offsettign the drop in share price/dividend of the electricty companies .. and the effects will cancel out each other ???

So retirement savings will not be decreased .. and because of a higher profit/higher dividend may actually be increased???

If you think a Labour/Green Govt can agree long enough to come up with electricity savings in the face of the emissions tax that they will also impose...good luck..

Actually on that subject, our supplier gives a rebate every year based on it being community owned...of approx. $300.
So I guess when the Stalinist model is imposed, that rebate will go.

scott411

23rd April 2013, 13:56

If you think a Labour/Green Govt can agree long enough to come up with electricity savings in the face of the emissions tax that they will also impose...good luck..

Actually on that subject, our supplier gives a rebate every year based on it being community owned...of approx. $300.
So I guess when the Stalinist model is imposed, that rebate will go.

yep my counties power rebate is usually around that as well,

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 14:21

Hmm .. let me see

Labour started the oprivatisation of state-owned assets

Labour introduced the free market policies ...

Labour took over a country with large debt and reduced it ...

Right now our economy is deeply in the shti and we have a National Goernment (Yeah .. and you will all pull out the bullshit that it is international markets' fault ...)

It's starting to sound like Merika .. where the Democrats took over a country and put it trillions and trillions of dollars in surplus .. then the Repblicans under Geo W came in .. and the country wound up trillions and trillions of dollars in debt .. which they are still trying to dig there way out of ...

But the right still say that the left (Labour in Godzone and the Democrats in Merika) wil be bad for the economy ..
Since when ???

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 14:23

And you expect all this to be delivered by a Labour /Green etc government? ... Yeah, right! ... Like they did over their last nine year reign!

Dream on mate, dream on! I have seen a lot of Labour governments in my time and the only significant thing they ever achieved was daylight saving! :rolleyes:

No - I don't expect it .. my post was filled with "maybes" ... trying to make you lot think for a change and just stop coming up with knee-jerk reactions like "Labour will be bad for the economy ... " and other such bullshit ... Just maybe other things, that seem quite reasonable in a free market economy, will be what actually happens ...

How has National been good for the economy ??? Unemployment is increasing ... (even Paula Bennett admits there won't be enough jobs to go around.) companies are closing .. SOEs are fucked (Solid Energy ...) ... The Government is selling stuff to overseas interests (liek hospital food) - profits go straight off-shore when they could and should stay here ...

So please tell me .. How has Donkey's Government been good for the economy (no side tracks, no saying Labour would be worse ...) Just tell me how ...

Would you buy a used power company from this Government?

mashman

23rd April 2013, 15:03

Actually, some of us with money in kiwi saver and with less than 10 years to the magic 65 years old may well give a fuck ... (but not enough for me to change my vote .. I'll take the risk .. I reckon it wil be offset by higher profits/higher dividends in other companies ...)

Just gotta hope that when you're all pipe n slippers that the generation that's paying for it keep on producing :msn-wink:

Swoop

23rd April 2013, 15:07

So I guess when the Stalinist model is imposed...

I see they are calling for a complete ban on handheld lasers now.:rolleyes::facepalm:
Good to see all the legitimate uses for these would be crushed under their Junta...

mashman

23rd April 2013, 15:08

Scuba_Steve

23rd April 2013, 15:21

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 15:22

So I guess when the Stalinist model is imposed, that rebate will go.

Central control was also practised by the Fascist (right wing) Government of Mussilini's Italy - by the military junta (right wing) in Cambodia ...

It can also be known as a "planned economy" .. and I'm pretty sure that we have had one of those in the passed ... dare I mention Muldoon ???

We (Godzone that is) actually run a mixed model - some planned and controlled some free market ... do you seriously want to do away with ALL the planned part of our economy ??? Are you sure you can survive that ??? What have you got to sell to help you survive ???

oldrider

23rd April 2013, 15:24

No - I don't expect it .. my post was filled with "maybes" ... trying to make you lot think for a change and just stop coming up with knee-jerk reactions like "Labour will be bad for the economy ... " and other such bullshit ... Just maybe other things, that seem quite reasonable in a free market economy, will be what actually happens ...

How has National been good for the economy ??? Unemployment is increasing ... (even Paula Bennett admits there won't be enough jobs to go around.) companies are closing .. SOEs are fucked (Solid Energy ...) ... The Government is selling stuff to overseas interests (liek hospital food) - profits go straight off-shore when they could and should stay here ...

So please tell me .. How has Donkey's Government been good for the economy (no side tracks, no saying Labour would be worse ...) Just tell me how ...

Would you buy a used power company from this Government?

I did not say anything about a National Government being good and I don't vote for them either, you must have assumed that!

As much as I don't like National, IMHO they are the best of the useless lot that are in there at the moment, any other combination will only make things worse!

Just because I don't like MMP it does not mean that I automatically favour FFP ... FFS! :facepalm:

Banditbandit

23rd April 2013, 15:34

I did not say anything about a National Government being good and I don't vote for them either, you must have assumed that!

As much as I don't like National, IMHO they are the best of the useless lot that are in there at the moment, any other combination will only make things worse!

Just because I don't like MMP it does not mean that I automatically favour FFP ... FFS! :facepalm:

Yeah .. Naa bro ... I wasn't making either of the assumptions you believe I was ..

But give me a positive reason to vote FOR National ... not just they are the best ofthe worst ... of the other lot wil be worse ...

What has National achieved ???

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 15:38

No - I don't expect it .. my post was filled with "maybes" ... trying to make you lot think for a change and just stop coming up with knee-jerk reactions like "Labour will be bad for the economy ... " and other such bullshit ... Just maybe other things, that seem quite reasonable in a free market economy, will be what actually happens ...

How has National been good for the economy ??? Unemployment is increasing ... (even Paula Bennett admits there won't be enough jobs to go around.) companies are closing .. SOEs are fucked (Solid Energy ...) ... The Government is selling stuff to overseas interests (liek hospital food) - profits go straight off-shore when they could and should stay here ...

So please tell me .. How has Donkey's Government been good for the economy (no side tracks, no saying Labour would be worse ...) Just tell me how ...

Would you buy a used power company from this Government?

Well it is stable for a start.

Our work is up, not meaning money wise just the amount of new work that is coming in.
Yes some are still struggling but most are picking up new work.

It's a bit hard to 1) say SOE's ar fuck when it is only one and 2) blame the government when SE belived the coal was worth more and 3) SE failed because it used it's money when it went looking for some green alternative (there isn't one).

Unemployment? should they do what Labour did and move them to the sick? or is it normal for these to go up and down?

Labour has always been bad for the long term economic, look at the last time they were in, $17 billion surplus when they started, $11 billion deficit when they finished.

blue rider

23rd April 2013, 16:22

oldrider

23rd April 2013, 17:21

Yeah .. Naa bro ... I wasn't making either of the assumptions you believe I was ..

But give me a positive reason to vote FOR National ... not just they are the best ofthe worst ... of the other lot wil be worse ...

What has National achieved ???

Well, IMHO I think the float of shares in the SOE's has merit, why?

Because the government is cash strapped and that means the taxpayer has to invest in the state's assets (whether they want to or not!) through taxation.

With the public float, it means only those that "want to invest" will do so and leave my tax share burden alone for other things, nothing if we are lucky!

Sell all of the SOE's would suit me better (but not in Socialist New Zealand) and have government get out of business and focus on their core responsibilities like defence, police and international cooperation/relations!

Cabinet makes all the decisions so why do we need all those other clingons wasting time and money on useless quangos and junkets?

I am finding it hard to suggest why you should vote for National because I won't be doing it myself and the only thing I think they are better at currently than the others, is managing the economy!

On the down side they have just as many drongos as the others, like Smith and that clown Maurice Williamson, too many to list!

So there you have it the best of the rest ... holy shit, what a future this country has! :brick:

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 17:43

Questions, if National is all good, why did English only get 19 % or why was Brash not more successfull?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Brash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_English

what about the legacy left behind by Mrs. Shipley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Shipley

it means very little to me if this country is run by either of the large established partys as they clearly do not care about Mrs and Mr. Joe Six pack and their offspring.

Helen Clark took over from Jenny Shipley......so why did National loose at the time, and if National is so good why did they not take over from Helen Clarke earlier. Clearly they should have no hard time convincing Joe and Jane Ordinary Voter that they are teh very bestest on the ballot.

I to would like to know what National has achived in those years since they took over from Helen Clarke....there must be more than just beneficiary bashing and selling of of states assest and fucked up survailllance on orders of the US Government.

you could say if Labour is so good why did the Nats get back in?
You could also say what has Helen done for the country other than turning it into a blouse wearing country (she only did it to get into the UN and have a comfy job for life)
Every three terms the NZ public forget what the other side (whom every was in last) have fucked up and vote them back in because they are sick of the current lot.

Bill english is not leader material and Don is too far right for the current state of play (John Banks took it from him as Nat wouldn't have him back with so much baggage), hence why he went to act (he lost due to the left saying he was just benny and Maori bashing and Helen brought in the free student loans)

blue rider

23rd April 2013, 17:53

you could say if Labour is so good why did the Nats get back in?
You could also say what has Helen done for the country other than turning it into a blouse wearing country (she only did it to get into the UN and have a comfy job for life)
Every three terms the NZ public forget what the other side (whom every was in last) have fucked up and vote them back in because they are sick of the current lot.

Bill english is not leader material and Don is too far right for the current state of play (John Banks took it from him as Nat wouldn't have him back with so much baggage), hence why he went to act (he lost due to the left saying he was just benny and Maori bashing and Helen brought in the free student loans)

wow, now thats a non answer if ever there was one.....there are enough here that will tell me what labour and/or Helen clark has done wrong, how come no one likes to say what National and Dear Leader have done right.

disclaimer, i voted for neither party....and will not vote for either party as to me they are the two sides of a coin, and none of them will do anything that the county would actually benefit from. However I do vote.

Blackbird

23rd April 2013, 21:21

If we waited for any party to do the right thing by voters, Hell would freeze over first. We, as individuals have primary responsibility for providing for ourselves and our families as best we can. Sounds a bit naff when written like that but relying on faceless beauracrats for a leg up only leads to disillusionment and bitterness. Sorry, but it's been that way for time imemorial!

mashman

23rd April 2013, 21:32

HenryDorsetCase

23rd April 2013, 21:50

Central control was also practised by the Fascist (right wing) Government of Mussilini's Italy - by the military junta (right wing) in Cambodia ...

It can also be known as a "planned economy" .. and I'm pretty sure that we have had one of those in the passed ... dare I mention Muldoon ???

We (Godzone that is) actually run a mixed model - some planned and controlled some free market ... do you seriously want to do away with ALL the planned part of our economy ??? Are you sure you can survive that ??? What have you got to sell to help you survive ???

unregulated free market bought us the GFC. That went well. Lets do it again with some essential services. Make sure its coming into winter, that'll fix the proles.

BoristheBiter

23rd April 2013, 22:36

unregulated free market bought us the GFC. That went well. Lets do it again with some essential services. Make sure its coming into winter, that'll fix the proles.

WTF are you on? how do you go from the GFC to a power company being partial sold off?

Winston001

23rd April 2013, 23:29

But give me a positive reason to vote FOR National ... not just they are the best ofthe worst ... of the other lot wil be worse ...

What has National achieved ???

Hmm..don't know how I missed this thread: mainly cos I think Tim has a point about state surveilance and trusted him to argue it. As he has.

Sooo...why would you vote National? Hate to say it but they are the best of a bad bunch.

Generally I respect all politicians whether on the local council or in parliament. It is hard frustrating and difficult work. There is always somebody who will abuse you and worse still, abuse your children. That is not a price I'm prepared to pay.

In my experience the candidates for party lists and national elections are genuine well intentioned people, but people with a fervent one-eyed perspective. That is acceptable because we need committed politicians.

However they tend to be second string. MPs like John Key who are self sufficient and stand because of personal belief are rare. Laile Harre, Jim Anderton, and Philip Burdon are other examples.

This is a generalisation but Labour and Green members of parliament tend to be academics who have never been in the cruel world of trying to run a corner dairy or being a plumber. They mean well but their life experience is sheltered.

Brian d marge

24th April 2013, 00:42

oldrider

24th April 2013, 07:33

New Zealand is a negative country ... we vote governments out ... we never vote governments in!

The majority of the electorate only know what they don't want after they get sick of it! :shifty:

Ocean1

24th April 2013, 07:53

This is a generalisation but Labour and Green members of parliament tend to be academics who have never been in the cruel world of trying to run a corner dairy or being a plumber. They mean well but their life experience is sheltered.

Ain't that the truth, most of the rabid left I've met have no idea where the actual resources come from to drive the economy.

could it be that "treasury " is actually calling the shots .

No. Check who dictates the rules, it ain't them. It's not even a valid conspiracy theory.

New Zealand is a negative country ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/8588254/Kiwis-among-most-optimistic-in-world-study

The majority of the electorate only know what they don't want after they get sick of it! :shifty:

That's not quite fair, most of them vote on two or three core policies, they get reamed by all of the attendant detail that comes with them.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 08:29

if the two main parties are similar. One has to ask the question , why?

could it be that "treasury " is actually calling the shots . ( and in the main using the bank standards as a reference , it has been , historically a fiscally responsible treasury )

then the question has to be asked, why are the treasury following such a path? line of reasoning ?

Stephen

meanwhile on the internet

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/04/legal-in-the-us-watching-pixie-sex-lands-new-zealand-man-in-jail/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Findex+(Ars+Tech nica+-+All+content)

Similar?
One side is advocating the centralised purchase of electricity.
The other the privatisation of the same industry.
In the meantime the treasury is having to figure out how it cope with the economic downside of both paths.
You should take of your tinfoil cap and catch up - this was your dumbest post yet.

oneofsix

24th April 2013, 08:53

Similar?
One side is advocating the centralised purchase of electricity.
The other the privatisation of the same industry.
In the meantime the treasury is having to figure out how it cope with the economic downside of both paths.
You should take of your tinfoil cap and catch up - this was your dumbest post yet.

umm personal attacks. Is someone losing their rag? Does seem they missed the point but that would most likely be because it would challenge their thinking - what a debate is meant to do.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 09:13

umm personal attacks. Is someone losing their rag? Does seem they missed the point but that would most likely be because it would challenge their thinking - what a debate is meant to do.

Personal attacks?
Here?
Quelle horreur!

Go back and read his posts - in the clear light of evidence to the contrary he and his droogs are still crapping on about how both parties are the same and policy is controlled by Treasury. At the moment there couldn't be a clearer difference between National and Labour/Greens and the Treasury is having conniption fits about the fall out from both ill advised policies.

Maybe it is debate the first time, but it's just stupid (or dumb), the tenth time.

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 09:47

WTF are you on? how do you go from the GFC to a power company being partial sold off?

unregulated free market economics, son.

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 09:50

Ain't that the truth, most of the rabid left I've met have no idea where the actual resources come from to drive the economy.

squeeze a few cows, sell a bit of milk powder, what could go wrong with that?

Though *those* people seem to think that being a middle manager, a teacher, or union delegate does something useful for the economy......

heh heh

Scuba_Steve

24th April 2013, 09:50

Personal attacks?
Here?
Quelle horreur!

Go back and read his posts - in the clear light of evidence to the contrary he and his droogs are still crapping on about how both parties are the same and policy is controlled by Treasury. At the moment there couldn't be a clearer difference between National and Labour/Greens and the Treasury is having conniption fits about the fall out from both ill advised policies.

Maybe it is debate the first time, but it's just stupid (or dumb), the tenth time.

Well I'm not sure about the treasury & that, but he is right in that both parties are the same.
Both parties will fuck over NZ for personal gain, neither party is interested in what's best for NZ, Both parties will kill NZ

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 09:51

Oscar

24th April 2013, 10:00

unregulated free market economics, son.

Firstly, a proper free market would have MRP sold off in its entirety.
It would make a whole lot more money that way, so maybe you are drawing a long bow.

Notwithstanding that, the GFC was caused by sub-prime mortgages and dodgey banking practices in the US. Whilst these are obviously a part of what you call free market economics, none of these factors are, or have ever been present in this part of the world.

So whereas as blaming something on unregulated free market economics does make you look learned to the uninitiated, and calling someone "Son" is undoubtedly an effort to seem old & wise, what you siad boils down to more tired propaganda...

Oscar

24th April 2013, 10:02

He started it. Plus his dad could beat up your dad any day.

My dad is dead.
However, I'm sure my 74 year old Mum would be up to the task.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 10:06

Well I'm not sure about the treasury & that, but he is right in that both parties are the same.
Both parties will fuck over NZ for personal gain, neither party is interested in what's best for NZ, Both parties will kill NZ

Actually, whereas I'm prepared to admit that there is a lot of mutual back scratching goes on in the right wing of NZ politics, I have to say that people like Russell Norman (however misguided) do genuinely believe that what they are doing will help society. There are also those in the centre, both Labour and National, with a proper public service ethic (although some of these people are so paternalistic toward the electorate it makes me sick).

Banditbandit

24th April 2013, 10:31

Notwithstanding that, the GFC was caused by sub-prime mortgages and dodgey banking practices in the US. Whilst these are obviously a part of what you call free market economics, none of these factors are, or have ever been present in this part of the world.

That's not strictly true ... we might no have had the sub-prime disasters the US did .. but we certainly had some dodgey banking practices .. and quite a lot of New Zealand companies collapsed. Have a lo at this time line with some of the reasons given for the collapses ..

http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/good-reads/timeline-of-kiwi-finance-company-collapses/

Oscar

24th April 2013, 10:37

That's not strictly true ... we might no have had the sub-prime disasters the US did .. but we certainly had some dodgey banking practices .. and quite a lot of New Zealand companies collapsed. Have a lo at this time line with some of the reasons given for the collapses ..

http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/good-reads/timeline-of-kiwi-finance-company-collapses/

What's not true?
Sub prime mortgages did cause the GFC, and there was no history of that sort of sub prime lending in NZ.

What you highlight has no relationship to the GFC and would have happened anyway. It was caused primarily by greed (by both the financiers and the investors), and was in cases criminal.

Banditbandit

24th April 2013, 12:12

What's not true?
Sub prime mortgages did cause the GFC, and there was no history of that sort of sub prime lending in NZ.

What you highlight has no relationship to the GFC and would have happened anyway. It was caused primarily by greed (by both the financiers and the investors), and was in cases criminal.

No we did not have sub-primes like Merka .. but it was the rest of your post I was referring to ..

Whilst these are obviously a part of what you call free market economics, none of these factors are, or have ever been present in this part of the world.

Some of those factors were certainly present in Godzone .. including dodgey bank practices ...

Yes, it was caused primarily by greed ... but lending money to people with dodgey credit ratings (as some companies here did) caused those companies to fall over .. and then they could not pay the money they owed, so bigger companies fell over .. domino effect ...

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 12:22

Firstly, a proper free market would have MRP sold off in its entirety.
It would make a whole lot more money that way, so maybe you are drawing a long bow.

Notwithstanding that, the GFC was caused by sub-prime mortgages and dodgey banking practices in the US. Whilst these are obviously a part of what you call free market economics, none of these factors are, or have ever been present in this part of the world.

So whereas as blaming something on unregulated free market economics does make you look learned to the uninitiated, and calling someone "Son" is undoubtedly an effort to seem old & wise, what you siad boils down to more tired propaganda...

clucking bell. I was trying to take the piss a bit, OK? Its not funny now that you've gone and EXPLAINED it.

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 12:27

No we did not have sub-primes like Merka .. but it was the rest of your post I was referring to ..

Some of those factors were certainly present in Godzone .. including dodgey bank practices ...

Yes, it was caused primarily by greed ... but lending money to people with dodgey credit ratings (as some companies here did) caused those companies to fall over .. and then they could not pay the money they owed, so bigger companies fell over .. domino effect ...

agreed, no "sub prime" mortgages in the sense that the US had. What we had was a debt fuelled economic bubble. All those second (and third and fourth) tier lenders that were at least reckless and at worst criminal that as soon as it went south were completely ruined. along with the greedy fuckers who put money into them for 1 or 2% more than bank rates. I have limited sympathy for a lot of those people.

The best one was teh Gubblemunt guaranteed South Canterbury Finance: "too big to fail" "Alan Hubbard is a financial genius, NZ'w Warren Buffett". The amount of money that POURED in there all govt guaranteed (principal AND interest mind you) was staggering. And if memory serves the Govt guarantee on bank deposits was limited to $1M only at the time but not limited at all for them.

I still think that Jean was the brains of the operation, and she whacked Alan and made it look like a car wreck.....

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 12:34

Yes, it was caused primarily by greed ... but lending money to people with dodgey credit ratings (as some companies here did) caused those companies to fall over .. and then they could not pay the money they owed, so bigger companies fell over .. domino effect ...

we didnt really have dodgy bank practices as such. Our big banks (the big 4, TSB, SBS, ASB etc) are pretty heavily regulated, and quite conservative. Even in 2006 I think the worst they got to was 95% LVR on residential .... I dont really remember.

The dodgy credit ratings and stuff was scumbag finance companies who lent to even dodgier property developers. Fine while the merrygoround is spinning, just dont be caught at the end. And of course in a lot of cases the finance co lent to themselves wearing other hats as developers using unsecured punters money to do it. And charging like wounded bulls all the way through.

and that sector was basically unregulated. Well, kinda regulated but utterly unenforced.

Lets do the roll call:

Andrew Kruikzener (crook-zener). Serepisos, Blue Chip (up and at it again in STraya I see), Hanover (proud sponsor of the State news organ, One network news), SCF, Dominion Finance, and a bunch of others.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 12:44

clucking bell. I was trying to take the piss a bit, OK? Its not funny now that you've gone and EXPLAINED it.

Sorry:no:

I won't do it again...

BoristheBiter

24th April 2013, 13:08

unregulated free market economics, son.

see post below.

Firstly, a proper free market would have MRP sold off in its entirety.
It would make a whole lot more money that way, so maybe you are drawing a long bow.

Notwithstanding that, the GFC was caused by sub-prime mortgages and dodgey banking practices in the US. Whilst these are obviously a part of what you call free market economics, none of these factors are, or have ever been present in this part of the world.

So whereas as blaming something on unregulated free market economics does make you look learned to the uninitiated, and calling someone "Son" is undoubtedly an effort to seem old & wise, what you siad boils down to more tired propaganda...

BoristheBiter

24th April 2013, 13:10

clucking bell. I was trying to take the piss a bit, OK? Its not funny now that you've gone and EXPLAINED it.

No it wasn't and your not funny.

Banditbandit

24th April 2013, 14:42

I still think that Jean was the brains of the operation, and she whacked Alan and made it look like a car wreck.....

I'm more inclined to think it was a double suicide attempt, or maybe a murder/suicide ... she was not meant to survive ...

Brian d marge

24th April 2013, 15:08

Similar?
One side is advocating the centralised purchase of electricity.
The other the privatisation of the same industry.
In the meantime the treasury is having to figure out how it cope with the economic downside of both paths.
You should take of your tinfoil cap and catch up - this was your dumbest post yet.

So labour isnt "centre "left and national isnt "centre" right and the statement of intent page 20/21 from the New Zealand treasury ( who in no way advise the current government ) ...doesnt look like a national party manifesto and bear no resemblance at all to a world bank policy outline, who in no way "advise" member countrys

oh sorry, my bad !

Stephen

Brian d marge

24th April 2013, 15:16

Personal attacks?
Here?
Quelle horreur!

Go back and read his posts - in the clear light of evidence to the contrary he and his droogs are still crapping on about how both parties are the same and policy is controlled by Treasury. At the moment there couldn't be a clearer difference between National and Labour/Greens and the Treasury is having conniption fits about the fall out from both ill advised policies.

Maybe it is debate the first time, but it's just stupid (or dumb), the tenth time.

Well ultra violence is what you get when you marginalise a society and as for the clear evedence ..where is it.

Man up time , step up to the plate and produce

Ill get u started .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_New_Zealand oh look the word "centre " seems to flung about with gay abandon , wonder why .......

stephen

Oscar

24th April 2013, 15:37

So labour isnt "centre "left and national isnt "centre" right and the statement of intent page 20/21 from the New Zealand treasury ( who in no way advise the current government ) ...doesnt look like a national party manifesto and bear no resemblance at all to a world bank policy outline, who in no way "advise" member countrys

oh sorry, my bad !

Stephen

Having re-read your original post, which seemed to infer that Treasury was writing the policy of the major parties, I see that it is so badly written that it could mean anything. I guess deniability one of the benefits of posting borderline gibberish.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 15:42

Well ultra violence is what you get when you marginalise a society and as for the clear evedence ..where is it.

Man up time , step up to the plate and produce

Ill get u started .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_New_Zealand oh look the word "centre " seems to flung about with gay abandon , wonder why .......

stephen

Nah.
Why don't you read the new Labour/Green Electricity policy and tell me how that fits in the centre.
http://www.labour.org.nz/nzpower

•A new agency called NZ Power will act as a single buyer of wholesale electricity. It will also have the power to set prices.

mashman

24th April 2013, 15:44

Having re-read your original post, which seemed to infer that Treasury was writing the policy of the major parties, I see that it is so badly written that it could mean anything. I guess deniability one of the benefits of posting borderline gibberish.

I understood it. Seems like you're too dumb to be able to reason outwith your own terms of reference.

Brian d marge

24th April 2013, 15:54

Nah.
Why don't you read the new Labour/Green Electricity policy and tell me how that fits in the centre.
http://www.labour.org.nz/nzpower

A new agency called NZ Power will act as a single buyer of wholesale electricity. It will also have the power to set prices.
NZ Power will introduce a fairer pricing system where electricity companies get a fair return and consumers finally get a fair go.
These measures will also encourage more competition among retailers.

so there will be more than one then ,,, hmm that sounds just like the old electricity board ... oh yes i can see how I missed that

Also while you’re being so helpful , the NZ treasury statement of intent , was for 2014 to 2017 ,

couple of questions , IF a labour/ green win the next election will they re-write the statement of intent , ? and IF its is for 2014 , i,e the NEXT government , who is calling the shots here? treasury of the government

Just some small minor point s that’s all

Stephen

Sorry late for meeting

Banditbandit

24th April 2013, 16:01

Nah.
Why don't you read the new Labour/Green Electricity policy and tell me how that fits in the centre.
http://www.labour.org.nz/nzpower

Why are you all arguing about the "centre" ... nothing ever changes from the centre ... and bugger all gets done there either ... change and action comes from the margins ...

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 16:20

No it wasn't and your not funny.

How do you get "wasn't" correct and "your" wrong in a seven word sentence? Wake up, son.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 16:55

I understood it. Seems like you're too dumb to be able to reason outwith your own terms of reference.

Maybe you wear the same brand of tinfoil cap that he does.
I'm not dumb enough to use a word like "outwith", though.

Oscar

24th April 2013, 16:58

A new agency called NZ Power will act as a single buyer of wholesale electricity. It will also have the power to set prices.
NZ Power will introduce a fairer pricing system where electricity companies get a fair return and consumers finally get a fair go.
These measures will also encourage more competition among retailers.

so there will be more than one then ,,, hmm that sounds just like the old electricity board ... oh yes i can see how I missed that

Also while you’re being so helpful , the NZ treasury statement of intent , was for 2014 to 2017 ,

couple of questions , IF a labour/ green win the next election will they re-write the statement of intent , ? and IF its is for 2014 , i,e the NEXT government , who is calling the shots here? treasury of the government

Just some small minor point s that’s all

Stephen

Sorry late for meeting

You're not wrong - you do make small points.
And if you're suggesting that the Treasury makes Govt. policy, do you have any proof of this insult to democracy outside a statement of intent?

Oscar

24th April 2013, 17:00

Why are you all arguing about the "centre" ... nothing ever changes from the centre ... and bugger all gets done there either ... change and action comes from the margins ...

My point exactly.
Whilst these conspiracy wonks are raving about the treasury controlling the Govt., they missed the biggest sea-change in NZ politics for two decades.

HenryDorsetCase

24th April 2013, 17:06

My point exactly.
Whilst these conspiracy wonks are raving about the treasury controlling the Govt., they missed the biggest sea-change in NZ politics for two decades.

wait, whut?

is that on a page of this thread I havent read? What is it we're on about?

or is that something only revealed to you at the Mason's Lodge ?

mashman

24th April 2013, 17:10

Maybe you wear the same brand of tinfoil cap that he does.
I'm not dumb enough to use a word like "outwith", though.

No, I prefer my explanation.
But you are dumb enough to refer to a tinfoil (2 words) cap (usually hat, but I'll let that slide).

Zedder

24th April 2013, 17:32

No it wasn't and your not funny.

I dunno BtB, the fact that his user name (and hero apparently) is a character from a book who's a druggie computer hacker is funny.