The ultimate VFR400 F3 race bike - 98HP

[neil_cb125t]

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/23/micro-gp-honda-nc450v-worlds-coolest-bikes/

[Crasherfromwayback]

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/23/micro-gp-honda-nc450v-worlds-coolest-bikes/

Very trick!

[quickbuck]

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/23/micro-gp-honda-nc450v-worlds-coolest-bikes/

On whos Dyno ;)

Seriously though... That is darn awesome!
45k US though....

[Geeen]

Very cool way to get rid of a LOT of dosh.:niceone: Whats the go with the wear patterns on that rear tyre, suspension issues or pressure issues?

[tail_end_charlie]

Yeah, I first saw his development work on that bike about a year ago. I get the impression that the main dude, Mike Norman, is very very very anal about things, and therefore is a great engine builder. If you want more information about his build, check out his website (http://mngforce.typepad.com/). He really goes into depth on the design, manufacture and sourcing of the componets he uses in his engine. There is quite a lot of money that has gone into making that little V4 whine, and a lot of it has ended up as quite expensive paperweights.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If I squint juuuuuuuuust right, I might see something that looks a bit like that when I go into the garage tonight.......


yeah, not so much.

[Mental Trousers]

Norman and Elrod are convinced the NC450V will destroy anything in the 500 Superbike class and, with the right rider, maybe even the fastest SV650s.

With the right rider it should annihilate the commuter bikes.

[Mental Trousers]

Be interesting to see if they would allow 450cc triples like we have here in F3. Build a 130+hp 600 then unplug a cylinder ......

http://www.afmracing.org/content/view/31/49/


Superbike

(refer to Rule Section 9.2)
These motorcycles are also street based models, but may be made for any market in the world. Limited edition models designed for racing purposes may not be allowed. "Racing Only" slick tires may be used. Unlimited modifications to the engine and suspension are allowed based on following engine displacement classes:
175-250cc
251-450cc
451-600cc
601-750cc
751-Open cc
Super Dinosaur - No displacement limits; bikes must be at least 12 model years old.

[tail_end_charlie]

Be interesting to see if they would allow 450cc triples like we have here in F3.

I think so. If you refer to G-Force website that I linked before and scroll half way down the page (talking about Dave Moss taking his second consecutive 450 Superbike Title) he makes a reference to Mike Lohmeyer riding as a development rider for another team working to prove the 450 triple concept.


Build a 130+hp 600 then unplug a cylinder ......

...............and probably end up with about 70 hp. Probably would have some reliability problems as well. But then again I'm talking through a hole in my head.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, did you deactivate a cylinder or short stroke your CBR?

[Mental Trousers]

I think so. If you refer to G-Force website that I linked before and scroll half way down the page (talking about Dave Moss taking his second consecutive 450 Superbike Title) he makes a reference to Mike Lohmeyer riding as a development rider for another team working to prove the 450 triple concept.

It's 421 Ian Smith riding as a development rider for another team. I haven't been able to find any mention of how they've done it though.

Looks like if you weren't able to there's formula classes like F3.


Formula

(refer to Rule Section 9.3)
The motorcycles in these classes can be models based on street machines, factory purpose built racing models, or customer built one-of-a-kind motorcycles. Refer to the rulebook for class specifics and formulas. Modifications are unlimited within the various classes provided they meet the engine size/type formula for the class.
Formula AFemme is a class for female racers only. This class is a chapter optional class and is offered when the race schedule permits.
Formula I is a class for four-stroke multi cylinder engines from 451cc to 750cc, two stroke engines from 251cc to 500cc, 450cc or larger displacement four stroke single engines, and twin cylinder engines from 651cc to 1000cc.
Formula II is a class where the true factory built, racing-only motorcycles rule. They are almost exclusively 250cc two-strokes with water-cooled engines. Large four-stroke singles are also allowed.
Formula III also features mostly factory built race bikes, but these are 125cc two-strokes with water cooled engines. Smaller four-stroke singles can run here.
Formula IV allows a wide variety of bike types. Various four-cylinders, mid-size twins, singles, and two-strokes all compete against each other.
Formula Singles are four-stroke, single cylinder engines of unlimited size surrounded by any frame, suspension, etc. the builder wants to use.
Formula Twins are four-stroke, twin cylinder engines broken down into three categories (245-500cc, 501-650cc, 651-Open cc) surrounded by any frame, suspension, etc.
Formula 40 Can be any machine as long as its rider is 40 years of age or older. It is separated into 3 classes, Light, Middle and Heavy Weight. The classes are based on engine displacement and type of motorcycle.(see the race day schedule or the latest news/updates page for updates).
Formula Vintage are motorcycles meeting the AHRMA Vintage rules and AFM safety rules and are 1974 or older models. For more info on vintage stuff, you can contact the AHRMA coordinator, Dave Russel, at (650) 967-0435 in the evening (before lOpm please).

[slowpoke]

...............and probably end up with about 70 hp. Probably would have some reliability problems as well. But then again I'm talking through a hole in my head.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, did you deactivate a cylinder or short stroke your CBR?

Our own Chris Osborne gets waaaay more than 70hp out of his beaut lil' GSXR450 triple (and others he's built), it's as reliable as a John Deere tractor, and all for a fraction of the cost of that purty wee thing. It's not even that much heavier while still running stock wheels. Don't get me wrong the Honda is lovely, but I hate to think what Chris could achieve if he had $45k USD at his disposal.

[tail_end_charlie]

It's 421 Ian Smith riding as a development rider for another team. I haven't been able to find any mention of how they've done it though.

Thats not how I read it:

Former 450cc Superbike Class Champion, Mike Lohmeyer (seen on the Red bike in the picture below, with 421 Ian Smith right behind) was racing as a Development Rider for another team, helping them prove a concept 450cc Triple conversion.



Our own Chris Osborne gets waaaay more than 70hp out of his beaut lil' GSXR450 triple (and others he's built), it's as reliable as a John Deere tractor, and all for a fraction of the cost of that purty wee thing. It's not even that much heavier while still running stock wheels. Don't get me wrong the Honda is lovely, but I hate to think what Chris could achieve if he had $45k USD at his disposal.

Yes, I'm familiar with Chris's work with the triples, but he has done much more than just pulling a plug lead from what I understand. And it sounds like some teams might be trying the same thing over in the US. To be honest, they could probably learn a thing or two by talking to Chris because I imagine he has been 'running on three' longer than they have.

A more interesting argument would be more along the lines of just how much power you can get out of a modern engine running the triple setup. Mike Norman and crew seem to be able to get about 78-82hp out of a 428cc capacity for about $7500US and 90-94 hp out of a 450cc for about $15000US; all out of a 25 year old engine design. From what I understand (haven't found a whole lot of information about Chris Osborn's bike, just the article that Glen Williams wrote on it here (http://www.glenwilliams.co.nz/downloads/Article-RunningOn3.pdf)) Chris hasn't really spent anywhere near the same amount of money that Mike Norman has, and he is still getting a reliable 75hp. And that was info from a few years ago, I'm sure he's getting more than that now.
But either running a triple 450cc out of a modern engine (or short stroking a 600 to 450cc), are both compromising the overall design parameters of the engine to a certain degree. Whereas the G-Force 450cc engines are bored and stroked in a way that maximizes the original engine design.

[Mental Trousers]

Our own Chris Osborne gets waaaay more than 70hp out of his beaut lil' GSXR450 triple (and others he's built), it's as reliable as a John Deere tractor, and all for a fraction of the cost of that purty wee thing. It's not even that much heavier while still running stock wheels. Don't get me wrong the Honda is lovely, but I hate to think what Chris could achieve if he had $45k USD at his disposal.

Last I heard it was high 80's horsepower-wise, but as with many people that build a top end race bike, that figure may be intentionally understated. It's reliable now, but it's taken a few mechanical mishaps to get it that way.

[neil_cb125t]

Last I heard it was high 80's horsepower-wise, but as with many people that build a top end race bike, that figure may be intentionally understated. It's reliable now, but it's taken a few mechanical mishaps to get it that way.

Mechanical mis haps is just weakness leaving the motorcycle....:spanking:

[codgyoleracer]

On whos Dyno ;)

Seriously though... That is darn awesome!
45k US though....


$45,000 US$, sounds cheap for an F3 bike to me.

[willytheekid]

"dear Santa

Please kidnap This Chris fulla, and force him to rebuild my VFR750 to his amazing HP shitting standards.

...that is all"

:drool:...so friggin tasty...98hp!:apumpin:

[Mental Trousers]

$45,000 US$, sounds cheap for an F3 bike to me.

The prices that yanks can buy parts etc at US$45k = about NZ$250k :(

[roadracingoldfart]

Very cool way to get rid of a LOT of dosh.:niceone: Whats the go with the wear patterns on that rear tyre, suspension issues or pressure issues?


A banked track maybe , just saying.

[neil_cb125t]

Very cool way to get rid of a LOT of dosh.:niceone: Whats the go with the wear patterns on that rear tyre, suspension issues or pressure issues?

sh*t tires - that is all

[Wally]

Hi guys,
I'm one of the people working on your triples over here in the states.
I had traded emails with Chris Osbourne before we ever built our first one. He's was really great about sharing information.

You may know Frosty on here, I met him a few years back and he's the one who led me onto them.

The bikes we are building follow his (Chris') recipe. We are leaving ours stock, except for degreeing the cams, exhaust and mapping the A/F. We chose to stay stock simply to prove (we get a lot of wonky looks with these here) it was an inexpensive, reliable and competitive bike. Had we built them up, I think it would have hurt out chances of getting them legal.

We've built 4 so far, one got binned and became a paperweight and we then built 3 more. RWHP ranges from 66-68 on pump gas, using a dynojet dyno belonging to Doug Chandler. He says it reads a bit conservative.

Mike Lohmeyer raced one for us last year. He won a couple of races handily, and finished in the top 4 the other rounds. Unfortunately, we were running on exhibition in 450 super bike class for no points. Another friend, John, raced a second triple for us as well and did nicely in the novice classes (he was a first year racer)

This year, they are legal in 450 SBK. So far, 3 others have built their own, and a few more threatening too. We just raced this past weekend, and there were 6 altogether.

Mike Norman at G-force is a friend of mine and I think we're drawing him into participating on trying out a yamaha or two pretty soon. (all of ours are suzukis).

[Mental Trousers]

.....

Wicked. Way to go Wally. I'm very happy to know the triples are being used elsewhere in the world. Around 70RWHP is about right for a bog standard triple. I hope you guys are going to build some monsters out of them. After all, they've got the potential to make a reliable 95 hp.

[crazy man]

....think Chris is over 90hp with his ones

[quickbuck]

........

Great to hear some Kiwi cunning is being used in the goold ol U S of A.
Nice work.

Keep us updated with progress, either here or the Sub Catagory of Race Reports will be cool.

[Wally]

Thanks all!

right now we dont want to build anything monstrous. We feel that we'd scare away folks as then they'd feel that they would have to spend big $ in order to "keep up", so we are staying stock. We'd really like to see this catch on here and being budget minded, we think, will help.

You guys might already be doing something like this, but recently, we found that we could get a better tune out of them by putting a bit of PVC pipe with a cap on it, into the velocity stack. This effectively isolates the dead cylinder from the airbox, so you dont get the funky bumps in the A/F graph. Makes the graph way easier to read and easier to make tuning decisions. I was able to get 2 more rwhp out of one bike by doing this.
I did drill a small (8-10mm) hole in the cap just to help deal with air expansion with temp rises.

I know Chris had a solution for the injector, but what we did was just to take a spare OEM injector, and put about 8" of clear vinyl tubing from the inlet to the outlet and fill it with water. Then plugged that "dummy injector" into the harness and the trouble light went out and it revs out nicely.

Do any of you have experience with the R6? Next up looks to be a 2007. I hear they are finicky.

Thanks!

[Mental Trousers]

....

On my old 450 triple (the gearbox started playing up and it missed fifth gear, stretched and snapped the rod on the dead cylinder and is now propping up a wall) I removed the fourth throttle body and put some duct in that went to an air filter then cut the exhaust near the mid pipe, welded it up so it was sealed then put somemore ducting to an air filter on the exhaust side. For the airbox I plastic welded it closed. After I did both intake and exhaust the thing revved out really easily.

As for the injector for the fourth cylinder a 15ohm resister has sorted that out for me on my current bike.

There's a couple of R6 450cc triples down in the South Island. Neil Smith's is quite different. I believe he drilled the piston then welded weight back in to balance it, then sealed off the intake and exhaust.

[Wally]

Thanks Mental T,
we are putting a freeze plug in the exhaust header pipe, as close to the collector as possible, with the thought of using the empty pipe as a damper of sorts for the air that the piston is still pushing around.
The plug we use is a decent fit, then we "glue" it in with high temp rtv. So far, so good!


One guy has stock head pipes and he's cut and welded his fairly close to the cyl head.

Until recently, we were leaving the intake open to the airbox.

Bummer about grenading your con rod! Is the one you have now a honda ?

I'll contact Chris again and ask about the R6 and see if he can offer any insight.

[Mental Trousers]

Yeah, my current bike is the CBR. It's a 450 triple but I've done something a bit different on this one.

Another guy to talk to is Greg Percival. He's the only one I know of that removed the piston and conrod and replaced them with a weight on the crank. He's has some big hassles with it but it seems to be much better these days. Although early this year the bike cracked the cases but I've no idea if that's related to the setup of the triple.

When I win Lotto I'd do what Ducati did to make the Supermono - replace the piston with a lever (see image below)


http://www.sigmaperformance.com/mono18big.jpg