View Full Version : Action required now! Wire rope barrier planned for Otaki > Forest Lakes
I've not been around for a while and it seems like the cheese cutter campaign has lost momentum.
Anyway our friends at NZTA are planning some safety improvements to the road between Otaki and Levin (part of my daily commute). Many of their options make sense and I would suport them, but not all.
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/otaki-to-north-of-levin/index.html
The section from Otaki to Forest Lakes (https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=State+Hwy%2FSH+1&daddr=State+Hwy%2FSH+1&hl=en&ll=-40.742835,175.173783&spn=0.019574,0.038152&sll=-40.735275,175.182323&sspn=0.009788,0.019076&geocode=Faxmkv0d8x9xCg%3BFZwxkv0d5NNwCg&oq=forest&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=16&t=m&z=15) is destined to be a long Wire Rope Barrier retrofitted to more or less the existing road. I will be submitting that they use the Safe Hit Posts (like at Peka Peka) in their place as they do a good job of visually separating the sides of the road and are less risk to motorcycles.
There is another section (https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=State+Hwy%2FSH+1&daddr=State+Hwy%2FSH+1&hl=en&ll=-40.694436,175.232964&spn=0.078352,0.152607&sll=-40.694436,175.232964&sspn=0.078352,0.152607&geocode=FZhqk_0dO_dxCg%3BFR35kv0dS7RxCg&oq=forest&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=13&t=m&z=13) where a Wire Rope Barrier is planned, however the road would be re routed to alongside the railway line and the barrier would be in the centre of a 5m grassed median.
Does anyone have recent ammunition against cheese cutters? if so links would be handy...
Please can you submit your thoughts here:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/otaki-to-north-of-levin-section/
sidecar bob
3rd May 2013, 10:17
Probably the best defense against them is to pay attention & ride like your life depends on it.
Alternatively, you could hit the front of an oncoming car, so im not entirely sure what the angst is all about.
Xsannz
3rd May 2013, 11:11
In chch the are 4 laning johns rd 80km section and in the completed section is a middle concrete median with said 3 wire cheese cutters.
Now looking at then I don't see the concern the wire they used is about an inch thick braided stuff with a gap of about 30cm between each. If you are wearing protective gear or leathers the most I can see is some pretty nasty bruising / a broken bone but nothing that wouldn't already happen if colliding with a car or another bike.... Its definatly not going to act like a cheese cutter... And if you were going fast enough for it to do so you probably would have been just as worse of hitting anything else..
GrayWolf
3rd May 2013, 11:56
In chch the are 4 laning johns rd 80km section and in the completed section is a middle concrete median with said 3 wire cheese cutters.
Now looking at then I don't see the concern the wire they used is about an inch thick braided stuff with a gap of about 30cm between each. If you are wearing protective gear or leathers the most I can see is some pretty nasty bruising / a broken bone but nothing that wouldn't already happen if colliding with a car or another bike.... Its definatly not going to act like a cheese cutter... And if you were going fast enough for it to do so you probably would have been just as worse of hitting anything else..
Suggest you do some 'googling', there has already been an incident in NZ of the 'cheese cutter' type. Countries in Europe are REPLACING wire barriers. As usual NZ seems to follow on 20yrs behind and makes the SAME mistakes, rather than looking at the current trend, and saying. "oh yeh, lets cut out the years of finding out they ARE a hazzard".
sidecar bob
3rd May 2013, 12:03
Suggest you do some 'googling', there has already been an incident in NZ of the 'cheese cutter' type. Countries in Europe are REPLACING wire barriers. As usual NZ seems to follow on 20yrs behind and makes the SAME mistakes, rather than looking at the current trend, and saying. "oh yeh, lets cut out the years of finding out they ARE a hazzard".
An incident? so one then?? There has also been numerous incidents of bikes hitting oncoming cars. You choose, stationary barrier, or oncoming car doing 100kmh.
Yes, im sure both have the potential to kill, but not hitting anything is the best solution.
FJRider
3rd May 2013, 13:00
Does anyone have recent ammunition against cheese cutters? if so links would be handy...
Please can you submit your thoughts here:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/otaki-to-north-of-levin-section/
Studies were done in Australia in 2000 ...
http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/barriers/mc_barrier_cr201.pdf
But take a look at these barriers ... Well worth investigation into cost.
http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/barriers/BasycPresentationEnglish2012-3-2009.pdf
Or if that is deemed to expensive ...
http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/barriers/IngalRubRailDS.pdf
At the very least ...
http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/barriers/IngalStackCushionDS.pdf
There are other ways ... and this site makes interesting reading ...
http://motorcycleminds.org/?page_id=151
Now looking at then I don't see the concern the wire they used is about an inch thick braided stuff with a gap of about 30cm between each. If you are wearing protective gear or leathers the most I can see is some pretty nasty bruising / a broken bone but nothing that wouldn't already happen if colliding with a car or another bike.... Its definatly not going to act like a cheese cutter... And if you were going fast enough for it to do so you probably would have been just as worse of hitting anything else..
Really?
FYI it is not the wire that does the damage...it is the posts. The wire only ENSURES 'you' hit the posts. At speeds of under 70kph, amputations occur, and not more faster means death.
Yes, we all know the oncoming car is a danger, just as that tree etc on the roadside. A continuous barrier ensures there are no gaps to exploit when it's you doing the out-of-lane thing...
Xsannz
3rd May 2013, 14:01
Yeah true... I don't agree with them on the left... But in the centre it makes sense. And in chch they only use them on an island type about a metre wide with the wire rope fence in the middle ... If you hit the island at speed you'd either be airborne over it or lying on you side mid lane against the island.
They make sence mid lane as it stops card and other objects coming across into oncoming lanes within theory.
But on a bend on the left or straight on the left side of the road should be a solid barrier wher there is a drop etc or nothing except marker posts... As most who run wide do on the left and if you run wide on a bend and end up in the oncoming then even a wire wouldn't have helped.
imdying
3rd May 2013, 14:01
Suggest you do some 'googling', there has already been an incident in NZ of the 'cheese cutter' type.Wasn't that some numpty doing a wheelie rather than a legitimate accident though?
jellywrestler
3rd May 2013, 14:06
Yeah true... I don't agree with them on the left... But in the centre it makes sense.
wait till you see the new armco on the rimutakas on the featherston side, she's a real shredder
sidecar bob
3rd May 2013, 14:24
Wasn't that some numpty doing a wheelie rather than a legitimate accident though?
I believe that was the case, combined with a bike that had a weakened chassis from numerous prior wheelies, that failed at a bad time.
I stand to be corrected if this is not in fact the case.
FJRider
3rd May 2013, 14:37
wait till you see the new armco on the rimutakas on the featherston side, she's a real shredder
Perhaps it may pay for motorcyclists to make more effort to just stay ON the road. Even if it means slowing down.
Too simple .. ???
Usarka
3rd May 2013, 14:47
I've not been around for a while
Yeah you missed it turning all safety and nannerish.
Probably the best defense against them is to pay attention & ride like your life depends on it.
Alternatively, you could hit the front of an oncoming car, so im not entirely sure what the angst is all about.
I was impressed in a recent trip to Spain to see that most of the roads I drove in the Pirenee had guardrails with lower barriers designed for bikers.
Maybe we need a Lorenzo in Nz
Some of us simply ran out of steam fighting these things.
wait till you see the new armco on the rimutakas on the featherston side, she's a real shredder
Agreed. I don't agree with this anti WRB campaigning as the alternative is a head on with a Pajero. But I don't like this trend of putting high-rise metal Armco along roadsides where any motorcyclist sliding into one will be cut in half because they can now fit UNDER the horizontal Armco beam. What's that about?
They did this around Porirua inlet/Whitby. Replaced wooden Armco where a rider would bounce safely off the horizontal beam - no more than one foot gap at the bottom. Now they raised that gap just enough to allow a person's body to comfortably slide under and hit the razor sharp metal upright post.
It just baffles me what sort of person thought this idea up? I'm guessing they are raising armcos to accommodate wankers in Pajeros that are too high to hit an armco without flipping over them.
Gremlin
3rd May 2013, 19:48
Probably the best defense against them is to pay attention & ride like your life depends on it.
Except there is a section between Hamilton and Auckland, where the seal is in poor condition. Trundling along heading north one evening in the pouring rain, I slid over the slippery section... Only thing on the outside was a nice section of WRB...
Made me feel all warm and fuzzy.... yeah right.
Usarka
3rd May 2013, 19:57
WRB on the outside = arse.
Ocean1
3rd May 2013, 21:37
Agreed. I don't agree with this anti WRB campaigning as the alternative is a head on with a Pajero.
Where did you get the idea the alternative to WRB is nothing? I've only ever heard that from LTNZ lackeys trying to fiddle the stat's.
The alternative usually compared to WRB is concrete barriers, which performs similarly, costs slightly more to install, is cheaper over several years, has a far longer life and doesn't need the recommended six metre median reserve that WRB does.
But what the fuck would a bunch of motorcyclists know about it?
Ocean1
3rd May 2013, 21:43
Probably the best defense against them is to pay attention & ride like your life depends on it.
Alternatively, you could hit the front of an oncoming car, so im not entirely sure what the angst is all about.
I could rig a row of eye-level steel spikes aimed at car drivers heads either side of the carriageway and say exactly the same thing. In fact the best defense is to use an alternative that doesn't exclusively endanger one particular sector of road users. Particularly those sectors charged more in ACC levies because of the greater risks they're exposed to.
FJRider
3rd May 2013, 22:09
In fact the best defense is to use an alternative that doesn't exclusively endanger one particular sector of road users. Particularly those sectors charged more in ACC levies because of the greater risks they're exposed to.
The department that decides such policy's ... take no consideration into individual sector safety.
Merely the majority of road users.
Gremlin
4th May 2013, 02:54
The department that decides such policy's ... take no consideration into individual sector safety.
Merely the majority of road users.
You mean car drivers?
The ones that get hit when the barrier doesn't stop trucks?
Agreed. I don't agree with this anti WRB campaigning as the alternative is a head on with a Pajero. But I don't like this trend of putting high-rise metal Armco along roadsides where any motorcyclist sliding into one will be cut in half because they can now fit UNDER the horizontal Armco beam. What's that about?
They did this around Porirua inlet/Whitby. Replaced wooden Armco where a rider would bounce safely off the horizontal beam - no more than one foot gap at the bottom. Now they raised that gap just enough to allow a person's body to comfortably slide under and hit the razor sharp metal upright post.
It just baffles me what sort of person thought this idea up? I'm guessing they are raising armcos to accommodate wankers in Pajeros that are too high to hit an armco without flipping over them.
The new and improved (yeah right) metal posts of the Armco are worse than the wooden posts in one respect...
They WILL cause amputation/s just like the Cheesecutter posts.
But where did you get the idea that the 'old' wooden posts were safe? Do you have any idea just how many riders have been killed by hitting those posts over the years? Killed because of the PSI impact.
The most recent one I am aware of happened on this corner on SH5 when 4 riders went down after hitting oil on the road.
<iframe width="562" height="314" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=-38.886902,176.404204&panoid=2i0-bzgBhKv86Ya0DQLPOQ&cbp=13,114.7,,0,4.09&ll=-38.887214,176.404365&spn=0.000656,0.001507&z=19&so urce=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=-38.886902,176.404204&panoid=2i0-bzgBhKv86Ya0DQLPOQ&cbp=13,114.7,,0,4.09&ll=-38.887214,176.404365&spn=0.000656,0.001507&z=19&so urce=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>
The only way that Armco can be safe/r is by using a second rail (ie a plastic product along the lines of Mototub) which completely covers the posts.
Ocean1
4th May 2013, 10:01
The most recent one I am aware of happened on this corner on SH5 when 4 riders went down after hitting oil on the road.
What safety issue is that particular barrier addressing?
Is there a cliff or culvert running through the grass over there?
There is a bit of a bank beyond the rail, but TBH I've never stopped to investigate...
Ocean1
4th May 2013, 10:18
There is a bit of a bank beyond the rail, but TBH I've never stopped to investigate...
Would need to be a decent drop to be as dangerous as the armco. Guess that's the point, they're not even considering bikes when they spend our money. Needs to change.
Would need to be a decent drop to be as dangerous as the armco. Guess that's the point, they're not even considering bikes when they spend our money. Needs to change.
I don't think the 'drop' is particularly bad. Very common for such barriers to be where NOT needed, yet places they are needed...well...
<iframe width="562" height="314" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=sh50+maraek ++++akaho&aq=&sll=-40.799894,175.310128&sspn=40.033295,67.763672&t=h& hnear=State+Highway+50,+Maraekakaho&cbll=-39.707792,176.516735&cbp=13,91.71,,0,-3.69&ie=UTF8&layer=c&panoid=iH-QTBF-pbcN_h3ilbXUGA&ll=-39.713707,176.516733&spn=0.020732,0.048237&z=14&ou tput=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=sh50+maraek ++++akaho&aq=&sll=-40.799894,175.310128&sspn=40.033295,67.763672&t=h& hnear=State+Highway+50,+Maraekakaho&cbll=-39.707792,176.516735&cbp=13,91.71,,0,-3.69&ie=UTF8&layer=c&panoid=iH-QTBF-pbcN_h3ilbXUGA&ll=-39.713707,176.516733&spn=0.020732,0.048237&z=14" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>
This is the area locals call The Bluffs SH50. See any Armco? I know of one death and 2 could-have-beens when cars went over the side
Scuba_Steve
4th May 2013, 10:39
Where did you get the idea the alternative to WRB is nothing? I've only ever heard that from LTNZ lackeys trying to fiddle the stat's.
The alternative usually compared to WRB is concrete barriers, which performs similarly, costs slightly more to install, is cheaper over several years, has a far longer life and doesn't need the recommended six metre median reserve that WRB does.
But what the fuck would a bunch of motorcyclists know about it?
Well theres a point too, Alot of places these WRB are placed potentially offer little protection for oncoming traffic at point of impact anyways as the WRB allows for the vehicle to fully cross to the oncoming lane before the WRB will pull them back in as seen in the demo video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkovjsSHK-g
Well theres a point too, A lot of places these WRB are placed potentially offer little protection for oncoming traffic at point of impact anyways as the WRB allows for the vehicle to fully cross to the oncoming lane before the WRB will pull them back in as seen in the demo video
Precisely. And yet, claims (by motorcyclists) that NZ authorities are ignoring installation recommendations (ie the 6 metre buffer zone) are met with howls of derision from said authorities.
I personally have a reply to this very question I put to Steven Joyce, which goes along the lines of "current installations follow best practice internationally".
Precisely. And yet, claims (by motorcyclists) that NZ authorities are ignoring installation recommendations (ie the 6 metre buffer zone) are met with howls of derision from said authorities.
I personally have a reply to this very question I put to Steven Joyce, which goes along the lines of "current installations follow best practice internationally".
Took me well over an hour to get home a couple of weeks ago, a truck had crossed over the WRB on the motorway into oncoming traffic. Yet another example of how ineffective these things are. I HATE them.
caspernz
4th May 2013, 12:17
Big deal on the WRB at the Otaki-Forest Lakes site...it's just a delayed reaction to a number of head-ons in the past few years. Having seen cars coming towards me and tagging the WRB along the Paekakariki foreshore, I'll say I prefer the WRB over nothing but a white line thanks :niceone:
And yes parts of Europe are using biker friendly Armco with two rails etc, but just consider the disparity in population density?? For the size of our roading network and population we can't really complain too much...but I guess you need to spend more than five minutes overseas to grasp that basic fact :bleh:
FJRider
4th May 2013, 12:55
You mean car drivers?
The ones that get hit when the barrier doesn't stop trucks?
It's not that safe for ALL car drivers either ...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=282341&d=1367628644
But this road got Transit NZ a safety award. How many people have died on this piece of road since the WRB was installed in the road center .. ???
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=282338&d=1367627955
Big deal on the WRB at the Otaki-Forest Lakes site...it's just a delayed reaction to a number of head-ons in the past few years. Having seen cars coming towards me and tagging the WRB along the Paekakariki foreshore, I'll say I prefer the WRB over nothing but a white line thanks :niceone:
And yes parts of Europe are using biker friendly Armco with two rails etc, but just consider the disparity in population density?? For the size of our roading network and population we can't really complain too much...but I guess you need to spend more than five minutes overseas to grasp that basic fact :bleh:
25 years is a bit more than 5 minutes and Spain is not so dense either, out of the major cities it's a desert. They resurface all the motorways in Auckland every Monday, they could skip a week and spend in that instead
jellywrestler
4th May 2013, 20:53
pic
both lanes the cars are following too close, there's a problem right there and then
Ocean1
4th May 2013, 20:55
both lanes the cars are following too close, there's a problem right there and then
At the recommended retail speed you'd be dead right. Fortunatley the defacto limit up there is 12kph, at which speed their following distance is just fine.
But this road got Transit NZ a safety award. How many people have died on this piece of road since the WRB was installed in the road center .. ???
I will guess none?
Put something in the way of road users that will kill (or seriously mame) them in an instant, and the (usual but not always) reaction is to abey.
IE: replace the WRB's with armed nutters, and the road toll will be none also...I mean, who wants to fuck with an armed nutter?
WRB's do not bother me on a personal level, they are a fact of life and I just get on with it.
I will guess none?
Put something in the way of road users that will kill (or seriously mame) them in an instant, and the (usual but not always) reaction is to abey.
IE: replace the WRB's with armed nutters, and the road toll will be none also...I mean, who wants to fuck with an armed nutter?
WRB's do not bother me on a personal level, they are a fact of life and I just get on with it.
A big spike in the centre of every steering wheel would be great, thanks.
As for WRB - yes, tis a fact of life. And will be the cause of death, given time. Sure, they have saved who knows how many lives, but I still have a huge problem with a safety measure that INCREASES the danger for some. Nothing will dissuade me otherwise.
I thought we'd seen the last of this whole wire rope barrier bullshit? seriously guys it's embarrassing.
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