Ode to a job screwed up

[XP@]

Oh what a sucky night...

Decied to change the oil last night, it has been about a year since the last change and a couple of thou over the recommended 10,000.
I had also noticed a few drips coming from the sump plug, which I put down to probably re-using an old gasket, but wasn't really sure cos the shop did the last change (when they replaced the clutch, i would normally do a normal service myself).

So, armed with all the bits i dropped the oil. When I undid the sump plug, it felt a little strange, a tad too easy to turn.
I noticed the shop had used copper washers, slightly different to the Aluminium ones I had just bought from BMW.
With the oil drained I went to put the sump plug back in. Half way through screwing the plug in with my hand, it started to bind up. Strange, must have some debris in the thread. So I stuck my finger in the hole and wiggled it about (hmmm...) and sure enough some nice silver debris came out. Further inspection, half the threads were missing. (insert expleteives here)

Right, this is my only ridable bike, the CBR still needs a couple of hundred bucks and a new vin. I found some tie wier for the plug and carefully, oh so carefully wound it in to where it had bound before. Then very carefuly wound it in half a turn with a spanner (was not going to use the socket on it) and back out. Inspected the hole again and three shiny semi circles of thread fell out.

With only one thread and no chance of getting the CBR on the road today, I took the train for the first time ever :violin:

Now does anyone rate my chances of getting the bike shop to pay for a mistake they made last year?

[James Deuce]

Firstly: Bugger.

Secondly: Chances not good, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. You may be able to do a free labour thing with them.

[vifferman]

Now does anyone rate my chances of getting the bike shop to pay for a mistake they made last year?
Nup.
Sorry....
On the bright side, it won't be too expensive to fix. A helicoil (or equivalent), new washer for the plug, and some new new oil (unless the new oil is reusable).

[F5 Dave]

So how exactly did the shop screw up? By using a copper washer? What’s wrong with that, many sump washers are copper? Remember that the engine isn’t BMW.

Or are you assuming that they striped the thread by doing it up too tight?

Or is it just possible you own an engine made with typical Italian material & it’s performing like an Italian bike. Hold on, the Pegasus engines were Rotax, but you get my point. Threaded into cast is a drag. My Suz GS eventually did the same despite being Japanese. Fortunately the sump was removable so I could take the item into an engineer. I got him to turn up an insert from bar & we tacked that in place & sealed it.

10,000 km between changes with a unit clutch? Crumbs.

[Sensei]

Had my 93 GSXR1100R have the sump pug stripped by shop . They told me it was me ?? Said as you have done all the oil changes since buying the bike I think NOT . Played Phone talk for a couple of days till I went down there & showed the Owner which part of his Desk his head was going through !! . Bike Fixed but got it back & the Headers full off it going to Cemetry Wanaganui . If you can prove they where the last to touch it then Push them Hard to Fix !!

[XP@]

Nup.
Sorry....
On the bright side, it won't be too expensive to fix. A helicoil (or equivalent), new washer for the plug, and some new new oil (unless the new oil is reusable).
$40 for the helicoil
$250 for the BMW sump plug repair kit (ex germany)
$1.50 packet of chewing gum

[XP@]

So how exactly did the shop screw up? By using a copper washer? What’s wrong with that, many sump washers are copper? Remember that the engine isn’t BMW.

Or are you assuming that they striped the thread by doing it up too tight?

Or is it just possible you own an engine made with typical Italian material & it’s performing like an Italian bike. Hold on, the Pegasus engines were Rotax, but you get my point. Threaded into cast is a drag. My Suz GS eventually did the same despite being Japanese. Fortunately the sump was removable so I could take the item into an engineer. I got him to turn up an insert from bar & we tacked that in place & sealed it.

10,000 km between changes with a unit clutch? Crumbs.
I know it's a rotax, that is why i have a bmw...

the use of new copper washers in the previous oil change reminded me that i hadn't done the last change, I would have used one new washer and one very flat old one.

... actually i think it is more like 14000 since the last change :whistle:

[F5 Dave]

If you use a torque wrench to do the bolt up every time the threads probably won’t ever get damaged.

But cast alloy isn’t a wonder product. It has no elasticity & threads are stress raisers. If the metal is less dense in a particular area then it is more likely to happen. Many things can affect this. Heat of the mould, purity of the metal being used. Typically you get a few off first before you start using the product. New casting technology has improved things, japs tend to lead the way here.

All I’m saying is your bike may have been more prone to it & it isn’t messy-celery the mechanic’s fault.
This from a guy who won’t trust his bike in a shop.

[XP@]

If you use a torque wrench to do the bolt up every time the threads probably won’t ever get damaged.
...unless you belive the service manual which says 40nm. 25nm is sufficient, 40nm will strip it.

[Flyingpony]

Decied to change the oil last night, it has been about a year since the last change and a couple of thou over the recommended 10,000.


Quoting our lovely God Father:


depends on how rich ya feel dude. 12 months no oil change--scarey

Recently dropped mine on 14mth @4k distance, never again will wait that long. It was icky and dark. The next drop will be done at 9mth but hear 6mth is quite popular.

Got a logbook of some sort running there?
I've got one of sorts for mine. Keep track of date, km and item(s) in question.

Sorry about the sump plug. That must suck. Don't put a brass screw in it's place. An old cobber done that when his oil pressure switch failed on Brass Monkey pissing oil all over the place. Had to get it machined out of the alloy engine casing, after waiting the traditional 2 months for new part ex-Japan.

[hondacmx450]

send it to the shop and when thay say it was not them say ok well i dont need this new oil you want it and tip it on there desk

[F5 Dave]

send it to the shop and when thay say it was not them say ok well i dont need this new oil you want it and tip it on there desk

And so we continue with the attitude (not including XP, he seems realistic) of many bikers that your bike is under warranty for life, ‘the man’ is trying to stick it to me & who cares if they go out of business.

PS: we could run a competition on the quote above to count the grammatical errors.

[Motu]

Sump plugs and spark plugs are the most ''used'' thread on a bike,or car for that matter,nothing comes on or off more....and so more potential to get damaged,just by being used more often.It's very seldom a sump plug will be stripped from overtightening by a mechanic,even an incompetant one,that's reserved for owners.More often they are cross theaded because the worn threads make them sloppy....but sometimes shit happens and for some reason threads can catch,maybe some particle jammed in the thread.

[Brian d marge]

If you use a torque wrench to do the bolt up every time the threads probably won’t ever get damaged.

But cast alloy isn’t a wonder product. It has no elasticity & threads are stress raisers. If the metal is less dense in a particular area then it is more likely to happen. Many things can affect this. Heat of the mould, purity of the metal being used. Typically you get a few off first before you start using the product. New casting technology has improved things, japs tend to lead the way here.

All I’m saying is your bike may have been more prone to it & it isn’t messy-celery the mechanic’s fault.
This from a guy who won’t trust his bike in a shop.

have to agree with the above except about the torque wrench ...I have one of those fancy snap on click stop wonder ratchets and will strip a thread before it goes click:puke:,,,,but the one I prefer is the cheap Repco one with the bendy bar ...as the Elastisity of Metal its very constant ....As you can see whats happening and still judge by feel whats happening..ie manual says 40 but at 25 its feeling strange ( which means the damage has already been done) ,,,but it illustrates the point ,,, ..

As for the threads ,,,Cast ,,,yup Yamaha have access to a very skilled casting plant ,,,( look at the cast frame of the new scooters ,,nice bit of work )
In a thread ,,,all the "forces" are dealt with in the 1st couple of threads ,,,add a bit of vibration , and the stress raiser of the base of the thread and a bit of dissimilar metal corrorsion ,,, and metal stucture that sort of resembles Pumice ( try threading that ) So the damage and failure could of happened at anytime .....( another 0.02c into the Stephen retirement fund )

No I would take it to the bike shop ,,and get them to install a hellicoil...They can be a little tricky ,,You follow the instructions and the sump bung wont screw in as the thread is to tight ,,,( ie class of thread fit) ....so you have to use a bit of skill in order to get a bung that is a nice firm fit on the way in ,,,,( read easy to screw up)

As for 10 k for oil most modern oil will handle that now prob ,,,if its dark then thats the oil dong its job properly ..some synthetics say they can last up to 25 000 MILES ....( not in my bike ,,but thats what the manufacturer says !!) my little truck here in Japan has done 20 k on the oil ...with no prob what so ever ,,,) ( yes I know about the clutch, as I use ATF in my race bike gearbox and that is shagged after 1 meeting )


So at the End of the day I doubt ( read it may be very difficult ) to prove the bike shop did it ,,though If it was my bike shop I would do it ,) as it isnt a big job ,,,YOU will be VERY happy and tell everyone ,,,,So I,,the bike shop ,,, would be better off at the end of the day

So invest in the helicoil ,,would be my take on this ,,,,,,

Stephen

Who knows thats sinking feeling very well ,,,,is it,,,,is it ,,,,NOOOOO it is,,,,,

[XP@]

As for the threads ,,,Cast ,,,yup Yamaha have access to a very skilled casting plant ,,,( look at the cast frame of the new scooters ,,nice bit of work )
In a thread ,,,all the "forces" are dealt with in the 1st couple of threads ,,,add a bit of vibration , and the stress raiser of the base of the thread and a bit of dissimilar metal corrorsion ,,, and metal stucture that sort of resembles Pumice ( try threading that ) So the damage and failure could of happened at anytime .....( another 0.02c into the Stephen retirement fund )


Hmmm, interesting, if all the force is taken by the first couple of threads then why were they still intact?
The first thread is still ok, and at first i was able to easily hand screw the plug about 3 turns.
I understand that there is a few mm of thread more than sump plug, but this appears to have been stripped too.

How to tell if a thread has been stripped due to over tightning or cross threading? I would guess if you get semi circle shaped bits of thread then it has been overtightned?

But aye there is an known problem with the sump plug on the F650
http://faq.f650.com/MainIndex/Engine.htm

[John]

In my experience in fucking threads, the first are always in good shape if I crossthread, hell I had a brain fart and was doing the sump up instead of loosening it, way to strip the bolt doofus... :D

[pete376403]

A friend with an F650 has had this problem. He's a torque wrench freak - would torque the tyre valve stem caps if he could get a socket to fit - and it stripped just the same. A helicoil was the fix - not too much drama. Now he has a Pegaso and we're waiting for it to happen to that, too.

I never use a torque wrench on the GS1100 sump plug - couldn't even if I wanted to cos the collector for the pipes is in the way - but have never had any misgivings about tightening the plug. The difference between high quality Japanese alloy casting compared to the craploid East German pot metal that Rotax cases are made from - probably too much coal ash in the german stuff.

[stanko]

Why not just drill and tap it to a new size. then you could use a sump plug with finer threads which will not require as much torque to tighten.

You still have to drill and tap for a helicoil, but the new spump plug will only cost $10 instead of $250

[pete376403]

Fine threads and coarse grain soft metal are not a good combination. Plus you;ve still got to fill the original hole with something, so helicoiling that is as good a way as any.
Some drain holes are the same diameter and thread as 13mm spark plugs so they can be used as a temporary plug.

[myvice]

Porsche 911 No 3 (LHS back one, as in closest to the front of the car) sparkplug hole.
Bike sump? No problem!
When you/they are cutting the new thread use grease instead of oil on the tap to capture as much of the scree as possible.
If you can use a solid thread saver, Helicoils are good but (in my opinion) these are better.
Use locktight when installing the Helicoil or whatever you use to prevent it backing out with the sump plug, not common but it can happen.
Every time I drain the oil, about 5 times a day, I squirt a little brake clean into the plug hole just on the off chance there is a little bit of ring, piston, cam, anything harder than the sump metal hiding in there to ruin my day.

[WINJA]

THERES SOME FUCKEN USELESS MECHANICS OUT THERE , I HAD SOME SO CALLED PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC DO THIS TO ONE OF MY BIKES , IF IN DOUBT THEY SHOULD USE A TORQUE WRENCH , IVE NEVER STRIPPED A THREAD , NO MATTER HOW MUCH TRAINING SOME MECHANICS JUST DONT HAVE A FEEL FOR THESE THINGS OR COMMON SENSE . $50 AN HOUR FOR A MONKEY , WHAT A JOKE.
IN MY TRADE THERES SOME MONKEYS TOO , I JUST CANT BELIEVE HOW TIGHT SOME PEOPLE DO FLARE NUTS AND COMPRESSION FITTINGS

[Brian d marge]

Hmmm, interesting, if all the force is taken by the first couple of threads then why were they still intact?
The first thread is still ok, and at first i was able to easily hand screw the plug about 3 turns.
I understand that there is a few mm of thread more than sump plug, but this appears to have been stripped too.

How to tell if a thread has been stripped due to over tightning or cross threading? I would guess if you get semi circle shaped bits of thread then it has been overtightned?

But aye there is an known problem with the sump plug on the F650
http://faq.f650.com/MainIndex/Engine.htm]]]

When a nut and bolt are in contact ....they are assumed to have 100 percent contact .....but when under load the bolt stretches and the nut compresses ( Compressive strength of alumnuimminiumnunm cast is about 20 ksi and the steeel bolt will be about 90 ish Ksi ,,,these are super rough ,,just to give an Idea)
The Pitch ( distance between the peak of the thread ) changes ..the bolt increases and the nut deacreases ,,the result being that the load is concentrated ,,on the lower most threads ,,the ones nearer the load bearing area of the bolt ,,,,,,the result is a stress concentation.....

The treads that failed in your Engine I assume from what you say are the ones inner most ie inside towards the oil side,,,,

This may be due to installation , or as it was cast the area of the thread was insufficient to sustain the load , so the Local area around the highest stress ( in your case the thread with least thickness ) fail ,,or relieved it self ...transferring the load on to the next thread untill it was all equal again .....

You still are better off intsalling a helicoil ...( and when ever a steel thread is installed into ,,softer female thread make sure ,,the are NO high spots , sharp edges etc or swarf ..as these act as a cutter ,,,,,and cause havoc on the way in AND out ...

Hope that explains why the lower threads take all the load

Kind regards Stephen

[XP@]

Yup, thanks, I get the drift now :-)