A motorcycle industry crisis? Your thoughts

[Brett]

I have been carrying out some industry analysis as part of a paper I am doing with Massey University in business strategy & change, and luckily for me, one of the available industries for analysis is the leisure motorcycle market (The paper coordinator being a rather avid motorcycle fan himself). The first assignment that I undertook was an industry analysis looking at the nature of the competitive forces within the industry, a determination of their corporate strategies and a look at the profitability of the industry as a whole.

One of the things that this analysis has highlighted, is that there is a big 'glut' or bubble moving through the motorcycle industry of older (35-60+), mostly male, individuals. These are blokes who came of age in an era when it was very common for young men to get motorcycle licences and own bikes and who now, having time and money, have got back into motorcycling. They provide a large amount of industry demand. On average, 30 - 35% of men had licenses.

Contrast this with the new generation of under 25's. This group on average only has 7% of people getting motorbike licenses. As a predominantly LEISURE oriented industry, where people generally only buy the larger "leisure" bikes when they have surplus income etc...it really looks like the motorcycle industry is in for a rough time in around 30 years, unless the motorcycle industry can attract younger riders.

So...my question for this forum, is what do YOU think can be done to encourage more people to ride bikes?

Another question - Harley Davidson (whom I'm specifically reviewing as a company at the moment) have a product that is by-in-large aimed the 40+ age group and who have little connection (I think) to the younger markets have a dilemma to deal with...how do they engage with younger riders...what can they do? YOUR THOUGHTS?

[AllanB]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction of import cars a young man can pop down fuck all cash and load up the HP on a very high performance car that will carry him and his mates around looking for fat slags to pick-up and get high with. He can then park up his noise box outside Joe Publics house at 1.00am fuck one of the fat chicks in Joe Publics front garden, leave a sloppy used rubber and a few empty cans of RTD's on the drive for Joe Publics kids to walk past on their way to school, then do a few dounuts before driving off home to mums house to sleep off the night.

Plus if he rides a motorcycle the helmet will muck up his hair and he will more than likely have to pull up his bloody trousers so he can get a leg over the seat.

[fridayflash]

interesting thoughts, theres a lot of younguns trailriding and racing motocross etc so the question must be
..how to transit them onto road capable bikes as they come of age, harley davidson bought buell from eric buell
in an effort to tempt the extreme freestyle and dirt riding american yoot's onto what they percieved to be a more
contemporary product...perhaps it didnt work?
lets face it necessity is a great motivator..if fuel prices get beyond $5 and the price and availability of parking
gets worse then scooters and entry level bikes (lams has gotta be a good thing here) may see a boost in
popularity

what conclusions have you come up with yourself brett?

[Brett]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction of import cars a young man can pop down fuck all cash and load up the HP on a very high performance car that will carry him and his mates around looking for fat slags to pick-up and get high with. He can then park up his noise box outside Joe Publics house at 1.00am fuck one of the fat chicks in Joe Publics front garden, leave a sloppy used rubber and a few empty cans of RTD's on the drive for Joe Publics kids to walk past on their way to school, then do a few dounuts before driving off home to mums house to sleep off the night.

Plus if he rides a motorcycle the helmet will muck up his hair and he will more than likely have to pull up his bloody trousers so he can get a leg over the seat.

yeah, but surely these were factors 30 years ago too...

- Young men have always been vain about their looks, bikes can be rather counter productive to this - even when now wearing a helmet etc the wind would mess your hair up.
- Motorbikes have always been perceived as dangerous...this is nothing new and mothers will have been trying to coerce their sons into cars instead of on bikes as much then as they do now.
- Cars - Ok...they might not have been the high performance things we get today, and I'm sure inflation adjusted and pre- relaxation of import tarrifs, the average used car would have been more expensive. However, they would always have had the appeal of being able to carry all of the 'boys' plus a few hot girls in a much more convenient way than bikes can afford. Plus, you can get a learner bike for a couple of grand these days.

I had to consider all these 'issues' and yet still opted to ride bikes (As well as owning a high performance car). In fact, all bar one of the boys amongst my brother and cousins rode bikes (I'm the only one still a rider).

[fridayflash]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction of import cars a young man can pop down fuck all cash and load up the HP on a very high performance car that will carry him and his mates around looking for fat slags to pick-up and get high with. He can then park up his noise box outside Joe Publics house at 1.00am fuck one of the fat chicks in Joe Publics front garden, leave a sloppy used rubber and a few empty cans of RTD's on the drive for Joe Publics kids to walk past on their way to school, then do a few dounuts before driving off home to mums house to sleep off the night.

Plus if he rides a motorcycle the helmet will muck up his hair and he will more than likely have to pull up his bloody trousers so he can get a leg over the seat.



tell us how you really feel alanb :niceone:

[MIXONE]

There are two types of motorcyclists.Those (like myself) who have lusted over them since being able to put coherent thoughts together and those who come into them later in life.It's getting the attention of the second group that is the problem.A modern version of the "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" ad with saturation marketing maybe?

[st00ji]

im constantly amazed at how few bikes there are on the motorway in auckland.

i know if had to spend a few months sitting in queues while the (few) bikes merrily rolled by i'd be looking into one pretty seriously.

couldnt live without mine these days.

looking forward to buying sweet bikes once im old and cashed up, hah.

legal standing of lane splitting should be formalised (in favor of, naturally) and traffic busting nature of bikes should be pushed! who needs rail loop / more roads etc.

[AllanB]

Nope 30 years ago when I had spent a few years doing double paper rounds, market gardening jobs in the school holidays to save for my first motorcycle they were cheap compared to cars. My 1st bike was a CB200 Honda (red) I paid $500 for it (purchased it off a cop!). All my friends got motorcycles too as a crapped out oil burning leaky rusted piece of British shit car would cost you 2-3 times that.

Some years later I wanted to buy a Valant Charger (still keep the bike - was a 440 Kawa by then) and I regret to this day listing to my father who put me off purchasing it. It was a bright orange one - bet I'd still have it today if I had purchased it.

[Brett]

interesting thoughts, theres a lot of younguns trailriding and racing motocross etc so the question must be
..how to transit them onto road capable bikes as they come of age, harley davidson bought buell from eric buell
in an effort to tempt the extreme freestyle and dirt riding american yoot's onto what they percieved to be a more
contemporary product...perhaps it didnt work?
lets face it necessity is a great motivator..if fuel prices get beyond $5 and the price and availability of parking
gets worse then scooters and entry level bikes (lams has gotta be a good thing here) may see a boost in
popularity

what conclusions have you come up with yourself brett?

Interesting comments re: motorcross transition to road riding...this is kind of where my thoughts have been going too.

My personal thoughts at this stage is that:

1) As you say, necessity will inevitably drive the need for motorcycle uptake. Fuel prices and traffic congestion alone are enough to convince me to motorcycle to work etc. Whether this will encourage a growth in the 'transport' related motorcycle market of smaller, cheaper to run and buy bikes/scooters instead of the leisure market is a cause for consideration. This is an entirely different market, with very different structures of competitive forces etc and while there is most certainly an overlap (people who buy "leisure" bikes that they commute with mon-fri and they ride socially with, go to the track with etc. on the weekend ) it does need to be kept as a separate market/industry for analysis.

2) I think that there will still be a bit of an uptake by older riders when they are older having a) more time on their hands and b) more funds to sink into what is ultimately an expensive leisure activity.

3) I think that issues at govt level can have an impact, such as the road planning decisions made by local bodies/govt - wire rope barriers etc being a factor. A road environment that is more motorcyclist friendly can help to reduce those barriers to motorcycle ownership associated with safety.

Other thoughts are still mulling around in my head.

If anyone is actually interested in the analysis let me know and I will PM it to you/whack it up here.

edit You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AllanB again.

[Zipper2T]

Well perhaps the latest sales figures for new bikes are a pointer to the future. Out of the twelve top selling new bike models, eight were scooters and seven of those were mopeds.

http://www.autotalk.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2771:statstalk-strong-month-for-bikes&catid=55:nz-market&Itemid=55


This is what the younger demographic are buying as cheap transport in urban areas. In time they may decide to graduate to a larger machines but, of course, the licensing and especially the registration costs, are a major disincentive. A lot will just give up and buy a car. It's not just a case of here's your learner license, now you've got year to practice after which come back for a simple round the block practical test and away you go...fully legal. As it was thirty+ years ago.

[AllanB]

Another thing is 30 years back cars got really shit MPG - motorcycles used little fuel by comparison. Now days motorcycle fuel use has not changed on a pure MPG basis (execption the new Honda NX thingy) but cars have vastly improved.


I will state that on a HP per fuel use motorcycles have improved.

[wysper]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - .




legal standing of lane splitting should be formalised (in favor of, naturally) and traffic busting nature of bikes should be pushed!

Yep, couple of good points here.

A motorcycle now is probably more expensive to run day to day than a car.

Our roads and cities aren't bike friendly. For instance free motorcycle parking is disappearing, splitting or filtering seems to be generally discouraged, and to the average punter ambiguous as to legality.

I use a bike as my primary transport, but I imagine most wouldn't want to. You can get a car as cheaply as a decent bike, insure it for less,
register it for less and probably get better fuel economy so it really doesn't add up financially to ride.

So aside from the few who want to ride because the want to ride, there is little reason to get a bike.

I would think it is up to the motorcycle industry and manufacturers to address these concerns. Lobby/work for clarification of laws in their industries favour. Lobby/work towards rego costs.

I would be happy for my kids to ride, but I doubt they would want the disadvantages of a bike over a car when they start off. Especially the big one when you are younger - cost. Cost of bike, gear, insurance, rego.

[Ocean1]

I think ACC paranoia and general bad press will see bikes first priced and then legislated off the road.

I look forward to regular late night runners from teh fuzz on my banned motorcycle. Wonder if they'll get to confiscate it before I die.

[Zipper2T]

Second hand cars have got cheaper while the asking prices for used bikes (say 20+ years old) are just crazy!

[Oblivion]

I feel like I can contribute to the younger rider demographic.

My riding passion started with my Dad telling stories about his old days, being a coot in RNZAF, and how he rode bikes. His story ended with him in a head on, now with a rod in the arm. The first thing that he said to me when I got my bike back when I was 16? Don't be like one of those other cockheads out there. (Aka, Be the fuck careful). And Ive been riding for almost 4 years now. I just like the feel of being able to gear up and go places without a care. I don't feel that I get that freedom in a cage.

But in regards to attracting younger riders, Its a safety issue. I have had friends that have come up to me and said, "Dude, I should totally get a bike licence, It's be awesome" And I ask whats stopping them. Parents dont want kids out there on a motorbike, because they have been through the 70's-80's where motorcycle death rates were horrendous. And as far as they are concerned not much has changed in regards to training and general motorcycle safety. I know that whenever I go out on the bike, I am putting myself at a much bigger risk than I would be if I were driving a cage. And thats a massive downside for people looking at biking.

And this leads onto the other part, cost. Its just getting too expensive considering most financial conditions of the younger people. The costs of ownership are being increased for no justifiable reason. Rego is 500$ a year, Decent gear is 1000$ and the rest, insurance and general rat bikes cost more than a steaming pile of bolts with 4 wheels. You are coming out of Uni with a student debt, trying to pay it off. If the costs dont add up you cant do it. Which is what I feel is happening. People are taking the cheaper upfront cost of getting a cage. When they could be saving over the long run by sacrificing a little bit of convenience (Carrying shit)

Also, not very many younger riders are of the Nana variety. :baby: Too many of them end up talking to one of these :Police:

[Padmei]

Check out Stuff for an article in the motoring or tech section I read the other day. it basically said that young people weren't into cars as much as they were when we were young as social interaction now is centred around screens rather than using the car as a means of socialising. The main car manufacturers were trying to blend social interaction with their cars.

I posted a few years ago about the lack of young fellas on bikes. I can't see any simple motivation to get them back - unless they had a ride on their dads/ uncles/ brothers bikes & caught the bug.

Maybe some have-a-go days put together by motorcycle groups in carparks/ open spaces with 250s may perk interest?

[Brett]

Check out Stuff for an article in the motoring or tech section I read the other day. it basically said that young people weren't into cars as much as they were when we were young as social interaction now is centred around screens rather than using the car as a means of socialising. The main car manufacturers were trying to blend social interaction with their cars.

I posted a few years ago about the lack of young fellas on bikes. I can't see any simple motivation to get them back - unless they had a ride on their dads/ uncles/ brothers bikes & caught the bug.

Maybe some have-a-go days put together by motorcycle groups in carparks/ open spaces with 250s may perk interest?

The whole issue of a changing society with regards to social media is an interesting point to ponder...hell, we're having this discussion on a forum rather than having ridden down to the local pub as a bunch of 'mates' to talk 'shit'.

[fridayflash]

getting back to the nescessity bit, me and all my mates had trail bikes, then at age 15 (almost to the day) we all got roadbikes or road legal traillies
we certainly couldnt afford cars yet. those really were the best days..roaming and exploring everywhere, i was already a bike addict but those first days of using a bike for fulltime transport really cemented my passion for riding. yet my teenage son and his mates dont seem to have the same interest
altho they have had trailbikes etc they seem to be happy staying home and playing space invaders (ok ..xbox)

[Hitcher]

It's not just bikes. The under 30s don't drive cars as either. The stats about ages groups with driver licenses compared over time tell a very telling story.

Beware academics who think everything has to fit into a quadrant.

[Drew]

Improve the safety stats for bikes, by increasing rider ability, through training and stiffer licence requirements.

That makes the activity infinitely more marketable. Which will increase our numbers.

Simple. Get the fuck to it you lot!

[Brett]

It's not just bikes. The under 30s don't drive cars as either. The stats about ages groups with driver licenses compared over time tell a very telling story.

Beware academics who think everything has to fit into a quadrant.

Very true. This extends beyond academia though, to a real problem that the motorcycle industry is going to have to deal with. It's (the m.cycle industry) living at the moment, struggling a little...but living. A shrinking pie however means that there will be a lot less to share amongst the manufacturers...that said, there is still the whole Asian market that is being kept removed from this at the moment. A little interest in China & India can yield large volumes, but I suspect that there are large internal (to these nations) factors that are barriers to their uptake in leisure motorcycles at the moment. I have only done some high level research on Asian markets at this stage.

[Voltaire]

True about the Social Media and Computers, my oldest is 18 and is only just getting his licence and my 16 year old would rather txt and play Xbox. I bought them a car to learn in, a 20 valve injected 2 door Toyota.....its 20 years old but nice to drive, way better than the 1200 cc VW I had.....does it get used much.....no.
As Justin Beiber once said " the times they are a changin'...:rolleyes:

[Big Dave]

Quadrants are for squares.

FWIW.
H-D Aus recently recorded a series of best-ever months. Not 'since 2008' - but best ever sales.

Hopefully it's just taking NZ longer to emerge from the malaise?

[Tigadee]

Here's the situation for me:
I got into riding as a mid-life crisis thing. Needed something new and challenging to do to get myself out of the rut my life was in.

Now, however, it's evolved into my lifestyle and a necessity - I can't imagine not biking into work everyday, or running to Pak n Save to get groceries on my bike. It also costs me 25 dollars a week for petrol on the bike, while it would be 70 or more in the car. I also could not tolerate the idea that I was one person driving into work in a vehicle designed to carry five, burning almost as much fuel carrying only me as it would carrying five people.

Even though I have the burden of higher rego costs and higher costs of parts for the bike, I actually make it worthwhile by using the bike so frequently and all year round, and saving on time cutting through jams, and now it is the car which is a drain as I use it maybe once a week only (the kids walk to school and my wife can't drive because of an illness) and the car rego ticks away.

30 years ago, a good jacket and maybe regular leather boots/gloves, and of course, a helmet was all you needed for the bike - and petrol of course. Nowadays, you need 1,000 dollars worth of gear for armoured jackets, pants, gloves, boots and full-face helmets, at least that's what you should have and will need to survive on the mean streets. The market, insurance and registration costs for motorcycles is just plain silly and should follow the same as cars or less.

In other countries where there are swarms of motorcycles, all the factors of rego, running costs, parts and labour are cheaper or cheapest of all the forms of private transportation. New Zealanders may come to the morotcycle as things get more expensive, not just petrol but other costs of living, BUT what really needs to change are the costs mentioned and sensible retail prices.

[Gianz]

I read an article sayigng that young people don't care about ownership of things anymore, it's all about the experience.

I think Jimi Hendrix was thinking the same.

[Brett]

Quadrants are for squares.

FWIW.
H-D Aus recently recorded a series of best-ever months. Not 'since 2008' - but best ever sales.

Hopefully it's just taking NZ loger to emerge from the malaise?

At a rather simple level...wonder if the weather had/has much to do with it? If I lived in somewhere with nearly year-round sun...I doubt I would use anything BUT a motorcycle to get around.

[Brett]

I read an article sayigng that young people don't care about ownership of things anymore, it's all about the experience.

I think Jimi Hendrix was thinking the same.

True for Gen X and later I reckon. I often find myself in this mindset to be honest, I live for new experiences and a richness of life. I think at a level though, ownership of things ties into this.

[Ocean1]

True for Gen X and later I reckon. I often find myself in this mindset to be honest, I live for new experiences and a richness of life. I think at a level though, ownership of things ties into this.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/life-style/8679414/The-trouble-with-young-people-today

[awa355]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction of import cars a young man can pop down fuck all cash and load up the HP on a very high performance car that will carry him and his mates around looking for fat slags to pick-up and get high with. He can then park up his noise box outside Joe Publics house at 1.00am fuck one of the fat chicks in Joe Publics front garden, leave a sloppy used rubber and a few empty cans of RTD's on the drive for Joe Publics kids to walk past on their way to school, then do a few dounuts before driving off home to mums house to sleep off the night.

Plus if he rides a motorcycle the helmet will muck up his hair and he will more than likely have to pull up his bloody trousers so he can get a leg over the seat.


Shit !! was that your place??:nono::nono: sorry about the mess, Wont do it again. Promise:banana:

[Ender EnZed]

If anyone is actually interested in the analysis let me know and I will PM it to you/whack it up here.


Whack it up, I'm sure it'll be interesting to a few people at least.

[awa355]

At a rather simple level...wonder if the weather had/has much to do with it? If I lived in somewhere with nearly year-round sun...I doubt I would use anything BUT a motorcycle to get around.

I would use my bike for all my travelling, but on night shift through a Waikato winter, and having to wear a uniform, the car makes more sense. Especially with the fog that comes down just before finishing time. When I retire in four years time, I will sell my car, we'll keep the wifes car and I will pick up a new scooter or small bike for all of my transport.

Have just spent 3 days riding around Taranaki and saw very few bikes on the roads.

[Badgermat]

To some extent, Brett, I think you're half way to answering your own question (or you seem to be from one of your posts).

The real approach for bike manufacturers is twofold: 1) new markets for old products; 2) new products for old markets.

For the first, there is still a huge market out there for utility motorcycles. Asia, Africa, South America; all these places are crying out for affordable transport, and bikes could be a major part of that. China and India are already well-developed markets (hell, Indians are making and buying KTMs in vast numbers). Between them they represent 2.5 billion people, that's about five times the size of the US, Europe, Japan Australia and NZ combined. Add in 1.5 billion across Africa and South America and you can see that market potential is still vast.

For the second part, manufacturers need to adapt their products to the mores of a leisure market. This means paying more attention to fashion and less to engineering (sad to say). Current bike marketing is all about bigger, faster, better, with a minor interest in prettier or different. In the future these latter considerations will be far more important (particularly given that engineering-wise there are very few bad bikes these days ... everything is pretty competent). Add to that the social shift to transport as an appliance, and the need to focus on smart, urban transportation and most of the current products are looking a bit, well, past it.

The one country that seems to have a grasp of all this is China. They're producting small, simple bikes and scooters for low-cost urben transport, and vast numbers of more style-oriented bikes based on the same platforms (think of the Skyteam baby cafe racer and super motard things). This is where the big sales will be.

None of this is particularly palatable to enthusiasts, but I suspect it reflects the reality of staying in business in the modern world.

m

[bosslady]

Make motorcycles look cool nice loud bikes that make ya look "boss"! doesn't help that it's harder/takes longer to get your licence I imagine. Wish their were more advertising for bikes even if in tv shows. Wish I knew how to make people realise how cool bikes are! a lot of people are too scared anyway, used to bein wrapped in cotton wool I reckon. And another thing! not much in the way of motorcycle gear for women that doesn't make you look like a frumpy fat tart. I've been looking at leathers for summer and all the sweet styles and colours only come in the men's gear. Not every girl wants pink crap!

[sketch]

it all comes back to convenience i rekn these days. ever tried eating a bigmac while riding a bike? yet a car has somewhere to put your supersized wendys cup

a car has somewhere to plug in your ipod, light and ash your cigarette, as much as your not sposed to you can make a phone call and send a text while your driving, even update your facebook, or apoligise for being mean to bosslady on tapatalk on the go, if its raining who cares chuck the wipers on

whereas on a bike you havta fight for your life constantly

peeps these days just want everything to be easy, with there mod cons and there "wipe my ass and make me toast" apps

as for me iv always wanted a bike since as long as i can remember, took me till i was 29 and a strange sequence of events till i got there

[Brett]

To some extent, Brett, I think you're half way to answering your own question (or you seem to be from one of your posts).

The real approach for bike manufacturers is twofold: 1) new markets for old products; 2) new products for old markets.

For the first, there is still a huge market out there for utility motorcycles. Asia, Africa, South America; all these places are crying out for affordable transport, and bikes could be a major part of that. China and India are already well-developed markets (hell, Indians are making and buying KTMs in vast numbers). Between them they represent 2.5 billion people, that's about five times the size of the US, Europe, Japan Australia and NZ combined. Add in 1.5 billion across Africa and South America and you can see that market potential is still vast.

For the second part, manufacturers need to adapt their products to the mores of a leisure market. This means paying more attention to fashion and less to engineering (sad to say). Current bike marketing is all about bigger, faster, better, with a minor interest in prettier or different. In the future these latter considerations will be far more important (particularly given that engineering-wise there are very few bad bikes these days ... everything is pretty competent). Add to that the social shift to transport as an appliance, and the need to focus on smart, urban transportation and most of the current products are looking a bit, well, past it.

The one country that seems to have a grasp of all this is China. They're producting small, simple bikes and scooters for low-cost urben transport, and vast numbers of more style-oriented bikes based on the same platforms (think of the Skyteam baby cafe racer and super motard things). This is where the big sales will be.

None of this is particularly palatable to enthusiasts, but I suspect it reflects the reality of staying in business in the modern world.

m

I have my own thoughts and opinions on the 'answer' or at least parts of it, but it is interesting hearing other people thoughts. I think to claim to have 'the answer' would be rather ignorant due to the plethora of influencing factors. My analysis has considered the leisure motorcycle industry separate from the transport industry largely because the study needed framing up lest it become a thesis or text book sized discussion, but in reality I don't think a responsible discussion on the industry could NOT consider the areas of overlap between the industries (leisure m.cycles/transport m.cycles). Bringing China and India into the debate opens a whole new can of worms, including the issue of competing with Chinese manufacturing IMO. The question of which of the manufacturers have the requisite core competencies to tackle the cheap transport market and not get burned, as has happened before, would need to be asked.

With regards to bike design...I feel that it is technical development that can keep a manufacturer at the front of the race. In an industry where we are down to small, incremental developments between models and manufacturers, even small improvements can make a difference. Although, it appears to me that brand loyalty and positioning is still a stronger selling point than the specs of the actual bike...(within reason).

[Brett]

And another thing! not much in the way of motorcycle gear for women that doesn't make you look like a frumpy fat tart. I've been looking at leathers for summer and all the sweet styles and colours only come in the men's gear. Not every girl wants pink crap!

You've just identified a good business opportunity...why not try and fill it?

[spanner spinner]

So...my question for this forum, is what do YOU think can be done to encourage more people to ride bikes?

Another question - Harley Davidson (whom I'm specifically reviewing as a company at the moment) have a product that is by-in-large aimed the 40+ age group and who have little connection (I think) to the younger markets have a dilemma to deal with...how do they engage with younger riders...what can they do? YOUR THOUGHTS?

I have been riding for 30 + years and have been working in the motorcycle industry for over 25 years in several different positions retail, wholesale both bikes and gear and as a mechanic, and have watched the industry shrink every year since the early 90's. Yes it is in crisis.

Bikes are toys, they are no longer transport haven't been since the cheep jap imports flooded into NZ. A reliable dry warm car can be bought for 3-4 thousand the same price as a entry level bike. The licence is harder to get than a car takes longer, the bike costs more to rego all done by a government trying to dissuade people from riding bikes.

In short there is nothing the average person can do to get more people on bikes, higher fuel prices do not get more people on bikes as there are to many other issues standing in the way. Most people once they find out about the licence issues and the fact they need to spend at least one thousand on gear if they want to ride every day drop the idea of getting a bike. Higher fuel prices just bring old bikers out of the woodwork, good excuse to con the wife into letting them get a bike again (but dear think of the money we can save on petrol if you let me buy a GSXR1000)

Most of the importers don't bring in what I would class as a commuter bike, most have dabbled on and off but they never sell well as there not "cool" so they go back to what they know will sell in a shrinking market.

The age issue that you speak of is a larger issue than most people realise as the 60 + riders are the people with the last of the disposable income, the 30 to 50 age group still usually have mortgages and out standing debits that the older group didn't have when they where the same age. This pushes the age out for the non riders in the younger group to return to riding meaning that there numbers will be less, yet another nail in the coffin of the industry.

As for the question you posed "Harley Davidson how do they engage with younger riders" they tried and failed. It was called buell and Vrod both which have failed to bring the customers they wanted. Harley are so tied to the baby boomers that they may fall with them.

Even if you look at the trends in the developing countries bike numbers are falling in percentage terms, Tata cars in India have been taking bike sales for years with there Tata Nano. if the car is similar in cost to a bike it will win out as pure transport. Most people that purely want transport will go for the cheapest most convent option. Cost is what use to bring a lot of riders to bikes in NZ who would then find out how much fun bikes where and then would go on to larger bikes and more riding, these conditions no longer apply to the NZ market and I would be surprised if they ever will again.

The only reason we have a bike industry in NZ is thanks to the fact that NZ farmers own shit loads of quads that the bike manufactures happen to make. If the quads where taken away (it could happen the US banned three wheelers and ACC keeps looking at the injury rate on quads) I believe that most of the importers would be gone in a couple of years.

The other issue that may be the next thing on the radar is the next generation of people who are driven by there on line life, these people worry all of the motor industry as they have no interest in cars or bikes and would happily drive (if that is the right word) a self driving car as this would free up more time for them to surf the net. They also have no interest in driving or riding for the pleasure of it, for them a car is purely transport and they also do less miles as they do more of there transactions on line meaning they have to travel less. Companies like mini have recognised that some of the older section of this group do drive at present and are targeting them on line. Current primary school students who have grown up with both a computer at home and pretty much unlimited data at a good speed due to only knowing broadband look at vehicles as transport not as something to excel to. There status symbol is the newest fastest new smartphone, tablet or the next must have electronic gadget. As bikes and cars get more expensive to run due to fuel cost, rego and road charges tolls etc and with emission controls adding to vehicle cost this may push more and more younger people more on line which will have a large impact on all of the motor industry, and as bikes are a smaller part they will show the impact first.

[Brett]

Analysis for those who care to read it...would be interesting to keep this discussion going. I have removed my personal details etc. from the analysis...just the content, lost a bit of the formatting...sorry, can't be arsed fixing it up.282870

[Brett]

I have been riding for 30 + years and have been working in the motorcycle industry for over 25 years in several different positions retail, wholesale both bikes and gear and as a mechanic, and have watched the industry shrink every year since the early 90's. Yes it is in crisis.

Bikes are toys, they are no longer transport haven't been since the cheep jap imports flooded into NZ. A reliable dry warm car can be bought for 3-4 thousand the same price as a entry level bike. The licence is harder to get than a car takes longer, the bike costs more to rego all done by a government trying to dissuade people from riding bikes.

In short there is nothing the average person can do to get more people on bikes, higher fuel prices do not get more people on bikes as there are to many other issues standing in the way. Most people once they find out about the licence issues and the fact they need to spend at least one thousand on gear if they want to ride every day drop the idea of getting a bike. Higher fuel prices just bring old bikers out of the woodwork, good excuse to con the wife into letting them get a bike again (but dear think of the money we can save on petrol if you let me buy a GSXR1000)

Most of the importers don't bring in what I would class as a commuter bike, most have dabbled on and off but they never sell well as there not "cool" so they go back to what they know will sell in a shrinking market.

The age issue that you speak of is a larger issue than most people realise as the 60 + riders are the people with the last of the disposable income, the 30 to 50 age group still usually have mortgages and out standing debits that the older group didn't have when they where the same age. This pushes the age out for the non riders in the younger group to return to riding meaning that there numbers will be less, yet another nail in the coffin of the industry.

As for the question you posed "Harley Davidson how do they engage with younger riders" they tried and failed. It was called buell and Vrod both which have failed to bring the customers they wanted. Harley are so tied to the baby boomers that they may fall with them.

Even if you look at the trends in the developing countries bike numbers are falling in percentage terms, Tata cars in India have been taking bike sales for years with there Tata Nano. if the car is similar in cost to a bike it will win out as pure transport. Most people that purely want transport will go for the cheapest most convent option. Cost is what use to bring a lot of riders to bikes in NZ who would then find out how much fun bikes where and then would go on to larger bikes and more riding, these conditions no longer apply to the NZ market and I would be surprised if they ever will again.

The only reason we have a bike industry in NZ is thanks to the fact that NZ farmers own shit loads of quads that the bike manufactures happen to make. If the quads where taken away (it could happen the US banned three wheelers and ACC keeps looking at the injury rate on quads) I believe that most of the importers would be gone in a couple of years.

The other issue that may be the next thing on the radar is the next generation of people who are driven by there on line life, these people worry all of the motor industry as they have no interest in cars or bikes and would happily drive (if that is the right word) a self driving car as this would free up more time for them to surf the net. They also have no interest in driving or riding for the pleasure of it, for them a car is purely transport and they also do less miles as they do more of there transactions on line meaning they have to travel less. Companies like mini have recognised that some of the older section of this group do drive at present and are targeting them on line. Current primary school students who have grown up with both a computer at home and pretty much unlimited data at a good speed due to only knowing broadband look at vehicles as transport not as something to excel to. There status symbol is the newest fastest new smartphone, tablet or the next must have electronic gadget. As bikes and cars get more expensive to run due to fuel cost, rego and road charges tolls etc and with emission controls adding to vehicle cost this may push more and more younger people more on line which will have a large impact on all of the motor industry, and as bikes are a smaller part they will show the impact first.
Interesting comments, Will reply in greater detail when I have a moment.

[spanner spinner]

Quadrants are for squares.

FWIW.
H-D Aus recently recorded a series of best-ever months. Not 'since 2008' - but best ever sales.

Hopefully it's just taking NZ longer to emerge from the malaise?

Yes but the question is who bought them, if it was a bunch of 60 + riders it doesn't bode well for H-D if your client base is just about to progress to a mobility scooter for there next vehicle. May be this could be a new market sector they already make trikes to cater for there older demographic.

[Badgermat]

I have my own thoughts and opinions on the 'answer' or at least parts of it, but it is interesting hearing other people thoughts. I think to claim to have 'the answer' would be rather ignorant due to the plethora of influencing factors. My analysis has considered the leisure motorcycle industry separate from the transport industry largely because the study needed framing up lest it become a thesis or text book sized discussion, but in reality I don't think a responsible discussion on the industry could NOT consider the areas of overlap between the industries (leisure m.cycles/transport m.cycles). Bringing China and India into the debate opens a whole new can of worms, including the issue of competing with Chinese manufacturing IMO. The question of which of the manufacturers have the requisite core competencies to tackle the cheap transport market and not get burned, as has happened before, would need to be asked.

With regards to bike design...I feel that it is technical development that can keep a manufacturer at the front of the race. In an industry where we are down to small, incremental developments between models and manufacturers, even small improvements can make a difference. Although, it appears to me that brand loyalty and positioning is still a stronger selling point than the specs of the actual bike...(within reason).

I wasn't suggesting that I have THE answer, just that your own earlier remarks about China and India may be getting towards something that might be AN answer. At least to offer a future for manufacturers in an (apparently) declining western market.

That said, I don't think you can separate leisure motorcycling from utility motorcycling. Well, not unless you want to ignore a significant growth market. As a manufacturer, that would be perverse (if not unheard of), but if nothing else, it could be viewed as a cash cow that pays for more exciting leisure bikes.

On the other matter, while I completely agree that technical development is valuable, until there is a massive shift in technology (say, to electric bikes) most machines are substantially similar to the average buyer. At least in terms of performance, reliability, economy etc. In this situation, brand and other emotional considerations become more important.

While I haven't done any specific research in the bike industry, I have been involved in consumer surveys in the computer, telecoms, booze and car industries. I am constantly staggered at how closely people identify with the perceived values of specific brands and how difficult it is to get them to change. Obviously, this isn't quite the same as getting people to try something new, but it isn't that far away.

m

[McFatty1000]

I read an article sayigng that young people don't care about ownership of things anymore, it's all about the experience.

I think Jimi Hendrix was thinking the same.

Haha this is pretty much the exact reason I got my bike in the first place - wanted to do something new and buying a bike seemed to fit. To me, the whole appeal is riding for the heck of it, thats the experience.

[misterO]

A semi-related note: guys who thought it was cool to frighten their pillion have poisoned our sport. The young lass who clung for dear life as her fearless pilot pulled wheelies grew up, had kids of her own and Forbade them to have anything to do with motorbikes. Word to the wise: keep your passengers happy, always leave them wanting more.

[Brett]

I wasn't suggesting that I have THE answer, just that your own earlier remarks about China and India may be getting towards something that might be AN answer. At least to offer a future for manufacturers in an (apparently) declining western market. I did get what you meant, I was more referring to my approach to this as a bit of an open ended excercise

That said, I don't think you can separate leisure motorcycling from utility motorcycling. Well, not unless you want to ignore a significant growth market. As a manufacturer, that would be perverse (if not unheard of), but if nothing else, it could be viewed as a cash cow that pays for more exciting leisure bikes. I absolutely agree about the joint nature of the industries. I haven't looked closely enough into the utility motorcycle market, especially in asia, to make an educated comment at this stage...would like to though.

On the other matter, while I completely agree that technical development is valuable, until there is a massive shift in technology (say, to electric bikes) most machines are substantially similar to the average buyer. At least in terms of performance, reliability, economy etc. In this situation, brand and other emotional considerations become more important. Shit yeah, brand identity seems to be one of THE key influencing factors...or at least from what I am gauging! I also think you're right in that the differentiation between bike models (in comparable categories - ie super sport) is getting smaller and smaller every year)

While I haven't done any specific research in the bike industry, I have been involved in consumer surveys in the computer, telecoms, booze and car industries. I am constantly staggered at how closely people identify with the perceived values of specific brands and how difficult it is to get them to change. Obviously, this isn't quite the same as getting people to try something new, but it isn't that far away. No, I don't think it's far away at all...you're on the money...brand loyalty seems to be massive. HD have created a distinctive core competence and competitive advantage around their brand loyalty and customer centric focus. (To somewhat bastardize the definitions...) I kind've wonder at what point this doesn't actually become counter productive by causing an organisation to carry their cusomter base along with them when they try to evolve and innovate who they are...)

m

reply in red

[Winston001]

Brett - I think there are three quite different groups which need to be considered.

1. Older (choke) mature types who grew up on BSA 500s, Norton Commandos, and Honda 750/4s. The aphelion of this age was the Z1 900 Kawasaki. Or a Benelli or Ducati.

Still, most of us started on excellent machines like the Honda 200 Alan refers to or the XL175. Today we ride BMWs, HD, Ducatis, or scorching Japanese miracles.

2. Young people (NZ) want to get from A to B in a city and don't have much money and/or possibly they like the idea of motorcycling. So they get a scooter and enjoy themselves. Or they buy a trail bike and have lots of fun at weekends - but it is a toy, nothing more. The girlfriend isn't interested so they also get a car.

3. Those people living in Africa, China, South America, India, and Asia for whom a car is a dream. There are about 3 billion of them. They buy small bikes because that is what they can afford and thus represent a huge market.

The 1 and 2 groups are small. If motorcycle manufacturers are going to survive they will supply the growing Third World markets.

Incidentally when I was in India, Royal Enfield bikes drew admirers. They are way beyond the average people.

[Ender EnZed]

The other issue that may be the next thing on the radar is the next generation of people who are driven by there on line life, these people worry all of the motor industry as they have no interest in cars or bikes and would happily drive (if that is the right word) a self driving car as this would free up more time for them to surf the net. They also have no interest in driving or riding for the pleasure of it, for them a car is purely transport and they also do less miles as they do more of there transactions on line meaning they have to travel less. Companies like mini have recognised that some of the older section of this group do drive at present and are targeting them on line. Current primary school students who have grown up with both a computer at home and pretty much unlimited data at a good speed due to only knowing broadband look at vehicles as transport not as something to excel to. There status symbol is the newest fastest new smartphone, tablet or the next must have electronic gadget. As bikes and cars get more expensive to run due to fuel cost, rego and road charges tolls etc and with emission controls adding to vehicle cost this may push more and more younger people more on line which will have a large impact on all of the motor industry, and as bikes are a smaller part they will show the impact first.

This is quite relevant.

There will come a time, conservatively within the next 10 years in NZ, when interacting with a smart phone is the norm for NZers prior to gaining a drivers license. What we (literally everyone reading this) perceived as "travel" time growing up, they will perceive as "free/internet" time. That's gotta make a difference somewhere along the way.

[Brett]

Brett - I think there are three quite different groups which need to be considered.

1. Older (choke) mature types who grew up on BSA 500s, Norton Commandos, and Honda 750/4s. The aphelion of this age was the Z1 900 Kawasaki. Or a Benelli or Ducati.

Still, most of us started on excellent machines like the Honda 200 Alan refers to or the XL175. Today we ride BMWs, HD, Ducatis, or scorching Japanese miracles.

2. Young people (NZ) want to get from A to B in a city and don't have much money and/or possibly they like the idea of motorcycling. So they get a scooter and enjoy themselves. Or they buy a trail bike and have lots of fun at weekends - but it is a toy, nothing more. The girlfriend isn't interested so they also get a car.

3. Those people living in Africa, China, South America, India, and Asia for whom a car is a dream. There are about 3 billion of them. They buy small bikes because that is what they can afford and thus represent a huge market.

The 1 and 2 groups are small. If motorcycle manufacturers are going to survive they will supply the growing Third World markets.

Incidentally when I was in India, Royal Enfield bikes drew admirers. They are way beyond the average people.

You're 3 groups make sense and I agree. They HAVE to look to emerging markets for new growth, as I mentioned earlier, I had to keep this removed from my analysis (for this paper) due to the massive task that undertaking an analysis framed around "the future of the motorcycle industry" would entail. Would run into several books I think! However, I think in terms of real -world application it is impossible to ignore. Where there are boys with money, there will also ultimately be a market for bikes that "go fast" and "look cool". It's only a matter of time before Indians are starting to purchase larger capacity bikes such as sports bikes, larger cruisers etc. It's human boy nature isn't it? (Must go faster!)

[McFatty1000]

Seeing as kinda I fit into the younger riders group:

The main obstacle I see/saw was the rego cost - I already had a car so it was going to be the big extra for the year. Worked out that if I rode my bike 3 times out of every 7 times I would have taken my car, the rego would be paid just with the saved fuel. Anything else was a bonus. (Doesn't work with the bike I have now but it got me past the initial phase)

My Mum was pretty adamant that I wasn't getting a motorbike - shes far more open with it now but the danger part plays a big part in my non riding friends not getting bikes still.

I found the biggest selling point for me though were the christchurch earthquakes and the traffic jams that occurred then. On a bike, the ability to get through stalled traffic and down broken streets is a huge peace of mind thing. Thats just me, but it has parallels to heavy traffic cities too

But it is true that lots of people my age don't drive cars even, so its likely a whole generational trend rather than just the one market

[Ender EnZed]

That said, I don't think you can separate leisure motorcycling from utility motorcycling.


I disagree (in NZ anyway), based on my own inconclusive anecdotal data. Out of x(>100) people I can think of I know 2 commuter motorcyclists. I'm a 21 yr old 99% leisure motorcyclist and I've spent ~$14K (including a ~$9k bike) in the last 12 months at my local dealer. If I'm a singularity then motorcycling in NZ is probably fucked.

[Ender EnZed]

Brett - I think there are three quite different groups which need to be considered.

1. Older (choke) mature types who grew up on BSA 500s, Norton Commandos, and Honda 750/4s. The aphelion of this age was the Z1 900 Kawasaki. Or a Benelli or Ducati.


These people are mostly dead or already own plenty of bikes. They're not going to contribute to the economy in any significant way.

[Winston001]

Ok Brett, if your research is going to be make any sense then you'll have to limit it to New Zealand. I'm sure you can get relevant data from similar places such as the UK, USA, France, Germany, and Italy. In other words, mature economies with wealthy older buyers.

For what its worth, I think motorcycles in these countries fall into the enthusiast category. Folk who love bikes.

An extreme example is the wrist watch. Breitling, Rolex, Tag Huer, Patek Philip etc. There is no logical reason in the world to buy these when you can pick up a watch for sod all at the supermarket. Nevertheless they sell and the manufacturers survive.

Thus it is so for Harley-Davidson, Ducati, Triumph, and Aprilia. Enthusiasts with spare money will buy these because they value them as pieces of fine machinery capable of an extraordinary experience. Motorcycling has become a very narrow niche.

Just out of interest: the English long bow is regarded as the most effective weapon in history. Try and buy one today. Even so, there are clubs of enthusiasts all over the world who build bows and seek out the best wood. It could become the same with high power motorcycles.

[Ender EnZed]

Ok Brett, if your research is going to be make any sense then you'll have to limit it to New Zealand. I'm sure you can get relevant data from similar places such as the UK, USA, France, Germany, and Italy. In other words, mature economies with wealthy older buyers.

For what its worth, I think motorcycles in these countries fall into the enthusiast category. Folk who love bikes.

An extreme example is the wrist watch. Breitling, Rolex, Tag Huer, Patek Philip etc. There is no logical reason in the world to buy these when you can pick up a watch for sod all at the supermarket. Nevertheless they sell and the manufacturers survive.

Thus it is so for Harley-Davidson, Ducati, Triumph, and Aprilia. Enthusiasts with spare money will buy these because they value them as pieces of fine machinery capable of an extraordinary experience. Motorcycling has become a very narrow niche.

Absolutely.

The leisure market might be a small market but this is the direction it's going in.

Toys. Make better toys.

[jonbuoy]

Safety has to be a factor - we used to have a more "accidents can happen - no one can live forever" attitude. Now we have become obsessed with trying to live forever in a cocoon of health and safety. Cars have made huge leaps in safety - look at the crashes people can now walk away from - other than ABS and TCS and slightly better helmets no real progress has or can be made on bikes. 99% of mothers would have a heart attack if little Johnny now said he wanted a motorbike.

Performance of cars has got closer to bikes too.

[bosslady]

You've just identified a good business opportunity...why not try and fill it?
Haha, I aint no seamstress.

[Ocean1]

These people are mostly dead or already own plenty of bikes. They're not going to contribute to the economy in any significant way.

Ya think?

Wiki:
Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power., July 2011 They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.

Now, what's left of your economy when this lot retire over the next couple of years? I'd say you're fuckt.

[Berg]

I agree that bike riders seem to be an aging population and also that bikes are often now perceived as toys for the rich and those with a death wish by a society that likes to "cotton wool" its inhabitants.
A way forward I have suggested but failed to gain any sensible response from is a borrowing of an American idea where secondary schools have a class dedicated to driver education.
Why could NZ schools not have a class for driver/rider safety, experience and basic maintenance? Surely money spent on this would be gained back in the future with better trained, more aware younger drivers entering or roads. Another bonus of this would be the ability to sent a problem "adult" driver back to "driving school" for some reeducation.
This way younger possible riders could be introduced to the pleasures of two wheels in a safe controlled environment with the bonus that they will also be more "rider aware" when they hit the highways in cars.

[roogazza]

I have been riding for 30 + years and have been working in the motorcycle industry for over 25 years in several different positions retail, wholesale both bikes and gear and as a mechanic, and have watched the industry shrink every year since the early 90's. Yes it is in crisis.

Bikes are toys, they are no longer transport haven't been since the cheep jap imports flooded into NZ. A reliable dry warm car can be bought for 3-4 thousand the same price as a entry level bike. The licence is harder to get than a car takes longer, the bike costs more to rego all done by a government trying to dissuade people from riding bikes.

In short there is nothing the average person can do to get more people on bikes, higher fuel prices do not get more people on bikes as there are to many other issues standing in the way. Most people once they find out about the licence issues and the fact they need to spend at least one thousand on gear if they want to ride every day drop the idea of getting a bike. Higher fuel prices just bring old bikers out of the woodwork, good excuse to con the wife into letting them get a bike again (but dear think of the money we can save on petrol if you let me buy a GSXR1000)

Most of the importers don't bring in what I would class as a commuter bike, most have dabbled on and off but they never sell well as there not "cool" so they go back to what they know will sell in a shrinking market.

The age issue that you speak of is a larger issue than most people realise as the 60 + riders are the people with the last of the disposable income, the 30 to 50 age group still usually have mortgages and out standing debits that the older group didn't have when they where the same age. This pushes the age out for the non riders in the younger group to return to riding meaning that there numbers will be less, yet another nail in the coffin of the industry.

As for the question you posed "Harley Davidson how do they engage with younger riders" they tried and failed. It was called buell and Vrod both which have failed to bring the customers they wanted. Harley are so tied to the baby boomers that they may fall with them.

Even if you look at the trends in the developing countries bike numbers are falling in percentage terms, Tata cars in India have been taking bike sales for years with there Tata Nano. if the car is similar in cost to a bike it will win out as pure transport. Most people that purely want transport will go for the cheapest most convent option. Cost is what use to bring a lot of riders to bikes in NZ who would then find out how much fun bikes where and then would go on to larger bikes and more riding, these conditions no longer apply to the NZ market and I would be surprised if they ever will again.

The only reason we have a bike industry in NZ is thanks to the fact that NZ farmers own shit loads of quads that the bike manufactures happen to make. If the quads where taken away (it could happen the US banned three wheelers and ACC keeps looking at the injury rate on quads) I believe that most of the importers would be gone in a couple of years.

The other issue that may be the next thing on the radar is the next generation of people who are driven by there on line life, these people worry all of the motor industry as they have no interest in cars or bikes and would happily drive (if that is the right word) a self driving car as this would free up more time for them to surf the net. They also have no interest in driving or riding for the pleasure of it, for them a car is purely transport and they also do less miles as they do more of there transactions on line meaning they have to travel less. Companies like mini have recognised that some of the older section of this group do drive at present and are targeting them on line. Current primary school students who have grown up with both a computer at home and pretty much unlimited data at a good speed due to only knowing broadband look at vehicles as transport not as something to excel to. There status symbol is the newest fastest new smartphone, tablet or the next must have electronic gadget. As bikes and cars get more expensive to run due to fuel cost, rego and road charges tolls etc and with emission controls adding to vehicle cost this may push more and more younger people more on line which will have a large impact on all of the motor industry, and as bikes are a smaller part they will show the impact first.

That's a bloody good overview I reckon SpannerSpinner.
I'm probably slightly different but basically the same. From leaving school as an apprentice MMechanic I always had both car and bike and still have 50 years later .
(Also had 54 cars and 50 bikes! ) Lots I was sort of dealing and repairing. I worked hard.
I felt things dying off in NZ from the nineties but hey I count myself so lucky to have seen the boom years both on the road and competition.
Pull up the ladder I'm happy LOL.
Who knows what will happen, but this still applies,
If you have to explain it they just don't get it.

[oneofsix]

Ya think?

Wiki:
Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power., July 2011 They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.

Now, what's left of your economy when this lot retire over the next couple of years? I'd say you're fuckt.

Invest in old folks leisure industry, retirement and funeral homes. :niceone:

Noted the number of females interested in bikes in the younger generation. They are have seen for the ability to make it through traffic and some support in this would be appreciated, I noted the Roadcraft Nothingham even splits and filters on his safety videos whereas in NZ it is questionable.

Saw the article not long ago that if only 10% of the current caged drivers switched to bikes the traffic problems of Auckland and Wellington wouldn't exist, surely this is worth the Government, local and national, investing in instead of the local councils sending the parking wardens out to hound bikes parked in otherwise unused spaces. What's wrong with marking those place where you can't fit a car as a bike park, each side of the fire hydrant, the space between the last car park and the corner etc?

I think it is time to focus on the commuter market more. The Can-Am etc are going to cater for the babyboomers as they die off. Cars are going to become more like personally owned public transport where you, the owner, don't control the drive. Bikes as personal transport are going to become the independent thinks reaction to the grey sameness of auto-drive cars.

Thats my 2c spent. :bleh:

[danchop]

ever noticed how small toddlers are in awe of seeing a motorcycle anywhere?
1975
look mum,motorbike! motorbike! (shits his cotton nappy in excitement)
yes johnny your dad might buy you one when your older
2010
look janet,motorbike! motorbike! (trained not to shit while out in public)
yes stormspout it is,but they are not safe,and ill get your stepdad to show you some articles on the net later about it

everythings about safety these days,car manufacturerers main drive now seems to be improving safety on new models,i took my mother to look at ravs at giltraps the other day,and the main focus of the salesman was every fart arse safety feature it had.bikes dont have this advantage
and landcorp announced the other day it is not allowing quads on thier new farms,so another kick in the pants for dealers

[willytheekid]

My thoughts...


Kids now days are soft cocks!...hence they don't ride motorcycles!

...and Im just fine with that.


Besides, the US did a study recently in regards to the decline of youth getting there license's...to fuckin soft to even drive a car! :tugger:
http://adage.com/article/digital/digital-revolution-driving-decline-u-s-car-culture/144155/

...fuckem!, they can sit at the back of the bus and play with there iphone19!, Us old farts can fly the flag till these little pooftas finally get sufficated by there own bubblewrap safety jackets!

This Gen Whhhhhy? lot is fucked! ...lets focus on the next generation I say :niceone:

[scumdog]

. Plus, you can get a learner bike for a couple of grand these days.



Dunno about elsewhere but here $800 can get you a WOF'd & Reg'd four-door dunger.

You can carry a shitload of RTD lolly-water, K2 and willing slappers in one - and be warm.

Can't do the same with a motorbike - and it would cost way more to buy, rego etc.

[Swoop]

im constantly amazed at how few bikes there are on the motorway in auckland.
I have to agree with you. There has been a diminishing amount on the roads over summer and now winter is approaching, things are getting even bleaker.
Weekends seem to be the opposite, with still a few bikes out and about. A bright sunny day has quite large amounts of bikes out and this is seeming to align with the OP's observations of the industry.

[willytheekid]

Dunno about elsewhere but here $800 can get you a WOF'd & Reg'd four-door dunger.

You can carry a shitload of RTD lolly-water, K2 and willing slappers in one - and be warm.

Can't do the same with a motorbike - and it would cost way more to buy, rego etc.

LOL, all true except for the WOF & REGO bit!...oh, and if its ChCh...its a $300 4x4! (2wd ute!:rolleyes:)


I have to agree with you. There has been a diminishing amount on the roads over summer and now winter is approaching, things are getting even bleaker.
Weekends seem to be the opposite, with still a few bikes out and about. A bright sunny day has quite large amounts of bikes out and this is seeming to align with the OP's observations of the industry.

+1

...I get lonely in winter :weep:
(I mean common!!!...Like SNOW & ICE! etc is a reason to stop riding for half the fucking year*!:tugger:...softcocks!)

*In ChCh...winter is damn near six months long lol

[Old Steve]

Just some personal experience. I first rode a bike at 61, so I guess I'm in the baby boomer disposable income market segment. Commuting and weekend riding. Once astride a bike I couldn't believe what fun it was. BUT - resistance from the other half, the bike takes me away from family time and she's not interested in riding herself or being a pillion.

License: When I got my license at 21 or 22 (couldn't even think of getting it and buying a car while at uni, bussed everywhere) I only had to drive a couple of hundred yards down a street, turn into a side street, do a 3 point turn, and return to the Police Station. For that I got my car license and my motorbike license as well. Wasn't until 2002 when I returned to NZ after working in Oz and letting my NZ license lapse that I lost my motorbike license, though it didn't worry me then as I'd never ridden a motorbike. Now, to get my motorbike license when I wanted it in 2009 I had to do the BHS, 6 months on a learner license, then I could have got my full in another 3 months P license (over 25 and do a defensive driving course). I did do 20 months on my 250 learner cruiser before I felt I was ready to move up to my Boulevard M50.

Traffic: My son has finally got his full car license after driving for years on a P license, he's at university in Auckland and could have one of the family cars, but he just doesn't want to drive in Auckland. He lives in the city centre and busses/ferries wherever he wants to go. As a rule of thumb, I think Kiwi motorists are amongst the worst in the world - I've spent time in 43 countries and driven or been driven in all of them - we need a more rigourous car license test procedure, A driving license isn't a right, it's a responsibility!

Cost: Paid $9000 for my M50, a cheap car could be even less - though maybe less reliable. Rego for the M50 costs about the same as my diesel engined 4 door saloon - $500+, much more than my petrol engined shopper SUV - $285?. Motorbiking is an expensive hobby, the under 30s aren't going to pay extra to ride on 2 wheels, in the wet, and not be able to use the bike as a social centre.

The bike industy's future: Best bet is survival fuelled mainly by off-road and farm bikes and quads. There will be a small market segment for road bikes. Look at Tauranga, theres an off-road Honda agency but no on-road Honda shop. Can all the road bike manufacturers afford to stay in a market of 4.5 million people with the road riding population probably shrinking? There's Ducati, HD, Honda, Hyosung (maybe should be in here based on sales of their 250s), Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph, Yamaha, KTM, BMW, that's just the big ones. There's so many more in the smaller sales volume, Aprillia, Moto Guzzi, Kymco, etc category. I think we just have too many motorcycle brands here.

[scumdog]

I have to agree with you. There has been a diminishing amount on the roads over summer and now winter is approaching, things are getting even bleaker.
Weekends seem to be the opposite, with still a few bikes out and about. A bright sunny day has quite large amounts of bikes out and this is seeming to align with the OP's observations of the industry.

Motorbikes and blow-flies.

They both appear in abundance when the sun is warm.

[Big Dave]

Invest in old folks leisure industry, retirement and funeral homes. :niceone:


Co-pilot was a player in aged care. That is as tough a gig as the bike industry in NZ.
The Govt regulates the profit out of it.
The providers that are doing well do so from their real estate developments.

[Big Dave]

Yes but the question is who bought them, if it was a bunch of 60 + riders it doesn't bode well for H-D if your client base is just about to progress to a mobility scooter for there next vehicle. May be this could be a new market sector they already make trikes to cater for there older demographic.


I think part of it is the population is living active longer - and that skews the stats older too.

Even like 10 years ago when granddad's knee gave out he maybe hung up his helmet cause a heavy bike wasn't viable any more. Now he just gets a new knee and rides another 20 years.

[Morcs]

Auckland traffic will never get better. Its going to get gradually worse. More people will be commuting on bikes because of that, and you can just hope they get the bike and do the leisure side of it eventually too.

Plus there will always be a sector of 40+ dudes who have always wanted to get into riding and that will then have the money to do it.

[caspernz]

Biking is about passion, not logic. The way I see it the PC brigade (collectively) quells the passion for up and coming riders by applying the safety gobbledegook, whilst ignoring it's the attitude of the rider (or driver) that is the bit that needs adjusting.

I mean, next someone will come along and say I'm not supposed to enjoy skydiving on account of the safety risk??

Heck, look at some of the pilots aboard scooters...office clothes, no gloves and high heels...skydiving seems safer to me!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have been carrying out some industry analysis as part of a paper I am doing with Massey University in business strategy & change, and luckily for me, one of the available industries for analysis is the leisure motorcycle market (The paper coordinator being a rather avid motorcycle fan himself). The first assignment that I undertook was an industry analysis looking at the nature of the competitive forces within the industry, a determination of their corporate strategies and a look at the profitability of the industry as a whole.

One of the things that this analysis has highlighted, is that there is a big 'glut' or bubble moving through the motorcycle industry of older (35-60+), mostly male, individuals. These are blokes who came of age in an era when it was very common for young men to get motorcycle licences and own bikes and who now, having time and money, have got back into motorcycling. They provide a large amount of industry demand. On average, 30 - 35% of men had licenses.

Contrast this with the new generation of under 25's. This group on average only has 7% of people getting motorbike licenses. As a predominantly LEISURE oriented industry, where people generally only buy the larger "leisure" bikes when they have surplus income etc...it really looks like the motorcycle industry is in for a rough time in around 30 years, unless the motorcycle industry can attract younger riders.

So...my question for this forum, is what do YOU think can be done to encourage more people to ride bikes?

Another question - Harley Davidson (whom I'm specifically reviewing as a company at the moment) have a product that is by-in-large aimed the 40+ age group and who have little connection (I think) to the younger markets have a dilemma to deal with...how do they engage with younger riders...what can they do? YOUR THOUGHTS?

I have two words for you Kim:

Roland
Sands
Design

[HenryDorsetCase]

I think part of it is the population is living active longer - and that skews the stats older too.

Even like 10 years ago when granddad's knee gave out he maybe hung up his helmet cause a heavy bike wasn't viable any more. Now he just gets a new knee and rides another 20 years.

I am hopeful that by the time I need it, I will be able to trade this body for a full cyborg upgrade. the only bits I would keep being the brain, ability to taste, and sex organs, provided that my senses of sight, hearing and touch can be upgraded.

then watch out bitches!

[Delerium]

im constantly amazed at how few bikes there are on the motorway in auckland.

i know if had to spend a few months sitting in queues while the (few) bikes merrily rolled by i'd be looking into one pretty seriously.

couldnt live without mine these days.

looking forward to buying sweet bikes once im old and cashed up, hah.

legal standing of lane splitting should be formalised (in favor of, naturally) and traffic busting nature of bikes should be pushed! who needs rail loop / more roads etc.

Part of the reason I want one

[tristania]

! not much in the way of motorcycle gear for women that doesn't make you look like a frumpy fat tart. I've been looking at leathers for summer and all the sweet styles and colours only come in the men's gear. Not every girl wants pink crap!

+1 for this. There seems to be more women than ever riding motorcycles, but there is still a way to go in regards to shops that stock sufficient gear for us and the attitudes of some need adjusting, not only in the shops (still encounter ones that won't look twice at you unless you bring a male in regardless of what bike you own) but also fed up with "did you ride that all by youself?" type patronizing comments.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Co-pilot was a player in aged care. That is as tough a gig as the bike industry in NZ.
The Govt regulates the profit out of it.
The providers that are doing well do so from their real estate developments.

thank you Ryman Healthcare

[milktown]

In other countries where there are swarms of motorcycles, all the factors of rego, running costs, parts and labour are cheaper or cheapest of all the forms of private transportation. New Zealanders may come to the morotcycle as things get more expensive, not just petrol but other costs of living, BUT what really need to change are the costs mentioned and sensible retail prices.

i guess i could be considered a "younger rider" im 27 and have been riding for about 6 years. started on a 50cc

living in amuurica all my life before moving here almost two years ago..
i was used to paying(in illionis) $37 a year for rego, insurance about the same as nz, maybe a bit cheape. and thats its. plus petrol costs half as much.
getting your mc licence is as easy as a paying $25, taking a 10 question test, and weaving around a few cones on any bike bigger than 150cc and BAM, you have ur full bike licence.

you can imagine my reaction when i found out cost of owning a bike here, and how long it takes to get a licence. $500 for rego?! + insurance, and i still HAVE to wear a helmet?! and what the fuck is a WOF? (yeah i know iv herd the acc bull)

with that said there are WAAAYYY more bikes on the road here(percentage wise) than in the ol usa imo.
New Zealand is also a lot more biker friendly. there is designated mc parking, lane splitting is somewhat legal and people in cars actually move over to let you pass. i love it!! not to mention all the beautiful scenery and amazing rides here. you got something very special down here dont take it for granted!! :niceone:
also i like the variety of bikes better in NZ. in the states its pretty much harleys, hayabusa. not much in they way of 400-750cc range.

just my 2 cents

[Big Dave]

thank you Ryman Healthcare

Bingo! - 'scuse the pun.

[Big Dave]

I am hopeful that by the time I need it, I will be able to trade this body for a full cyborg upgrade. the only bits I would keep being the brain, ability to taste, and sex organs, provided that my senses of sight, hearing and touch can be upgraded.

then watch out bitches!

Not work safe:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-3POYx6IeeI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Voltaire]

They were saying the same thing in 1901.....


Automobiles had to compete with the powerful horse industry and market research was important if cars were to be a viable alternative.

To give you an example of this competition, here is what the President of the Michigan Savings Bank said in 1901, "The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty, a fad."

[Brett]

They were saying the same thing in 1901.....

Yes, but there has been a whole lot of water under the bridge in the last 112 years...the world has most certainly changed...a lot.

[Road kill]

These people are mostly dead or already own plenty of bikes. They're not going to contribute to the economy in any significant way.


Still rockin; an still spending shit loads thanks.

[McFatty1000]

These people are mostly dead or already own plenty of bikes. They're not going to contribute to the economy in any significant way.

Not so sure - often they'll be parents of those wanting to get into bikes, and will help out in certain things - my parents have bought me a number of bits and pieces of gear etc that I wouldn't have afforded by myself. So its not a hard push to see a number of bikes being bought by Mum and Dad for their kids.

Its a cash flow thing; this group tend to have paid off their mortgage, have less expenses etc.

[fridayflash]

im constantly amazed at how few bikes there are on the motorway in auckland.



and yet the wellington motorway always has loads of bikes threading in and out, regardless of weather

[MIXONE]

and yet the wellington motorway always has loads of bikes threading in and out, regardless of weather

Yep they breed them tuff here in Welly...

[Richard Mc F]

Haha, I aint no seamstress.

Terry Pratchett fan huh:cool:

[AndyR1]

Coming from Germany I can tell you that most people driving Panigale, HP4, RSV4 or Triumphs are older guys having not only the money but also loving to have a European product rather than a so called "rice cooker". :clap: And made in Europe is even still pricier than made in Asia.

Despite the fact that since I bought my own 1999 Yamaha R1 in 1999 up to ~2007 bikes were exciting, fast and every one or two years the Japanese manufacturer throwing new, better and more advanced bikes on the market. But this development just stopped long time ago already. Then the European bikes come up and now they are leaving the Japanese bikes behind which are just boring, nothing new...changing the decals or putting in 200bhp is just average nowadays. Having the newest technical gadgets will sell...but even in this segment the air gets thinner. MotoGP must become more affordable because there is not so much money left as well...:weird:

Bike prices are increasing, income differences between rich and poor gets much bigger, even in Germany the middle income class becomes less and less, so poorer people can't afford a bike just for hobby reasons and the rich guys are buying $100,000 custom bikes to show what they have. So not much left for the manufacturers to sell to. On the other side few friends of mine having businesses with bike spare parts - there is the same development: Ordinary spare parts or OEM is not required, expensive fancy exclusive stuff sells much much better. And the margins are much higher as :shit:

We are living in a much faster moving world where we are supposed to buy every year a new smart phone, a new smart TV, a tablet and other gadgets. No more money left for a noisy, dirty and fast bike, which don't handles so good with a fat, Fastfood eaitng, lazy dude on top, who can't impress with loud music, sitting cool on his bike and having air suspension at his bike as well. This kind of people is seen mostly in US with 20" wheel extensions, NOS and 360 rear tire.... :Punk:

So laziness, convenience, way of life (and eat) making us more to car drivers, especially it can hold a 10" tablet better and you can eat your burger and drinking your coke better as well :baby:

That's the trend...that's the future for our next gen, they will probably drive electric bikes, incl. all technical gadgets you can think of. Race bikes with combustion engines are for Mad Max guys like us now....:chase:

What Auckland needs is a biker place like we have in Berlin our "Spinnerbrücke" (= bridge for crazy people), where at weekends hundreds of bikes are coming for a drink, a nice grilled steak, a chat or some other events...sometimes there are more than a thousand bikes: from scooter to superbike to HD...doesn't matter.

[boman]

Yep they breed them tuff here in Welly...

Maybe the drivers are better. The few times I have ridden or driven the Motorways in Auckland, it appeared the drivers were all wearing blinkers.

only concerned with what's going on their world. No look lane changes, wandering. Stopping for no reason. etc.

It certainly does not inspire to commute on two wheels.

[Dangsta]

Motorbikes is cool.......:cool:

When I sees the motorbikes I get cited......:clap:

Motorbikes does not have much of the borings...:eek:

If the people's not liking my bikes or the funs they can ...... :tugger:

[Ocean1]

The age issue that you speak of is a larger issue than most people realise as the 60 + riders are the people with the last of the disposable income, the 30 to 50 age group still usually have mortgages and out standing debits that the older group didn't have when they where the same age.


Invest in old folks leisure industry, retirement and funeral homes.

Right. So, apart from spyders and HD trikes what might take the fancy of the old timers when they can't get their leg over?

And what isn't available now that should do well in that market?

Should I start work on a range of 200hp mobility scooters, complete with chain guns and mini-bar?

[Dangsta]

Right. So, apart from spyders and HD trikes what might take the fancy of the old timers when they can't get their leg over?

And what isn't available now that should do well in that market?

Should I start work on a range of 200hp mobility scooters, complete with chain guns and mini-bar?

Mother of God YES!!!!!!!!!

[Swoop]

$500 for rego?!
That's the easy one. Rego on hold and don't pay it.

[Tarded]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction of import cars a young man can pop down fuck all cash and load up the HP on a very high performance car that will carry him and his mates around looking for fat slags to pick-up and get high with. He can then park up his noise box outside Joe Publics house at 1.00am fuck one of the fat chicks in Joe Publics front garden, leave a sloppy used rubber and a few empty cans of RTD's on the drive for Joe Publics kids to walk past on their way to school, then do a few dounuts before driving off home to mums house to sleep off the night.

Plus if he rides a motorcycle the helmet will muck up his hair and he will more than likely have to pull up his bloody trousers so he can get a leg over the seat.

This guy for prime minister! Cheers for the post, cracked me up!

[jellywrestler]

A motorcycle is no longer 'cheap' transport - it was 30 years back but with the introduction

in 1969 a honda cb750 the biggest and best japanese bike was $1995
in 1989 a GSXR1100 Suzuki was $19999
in 2009 a GSXR1000 was floating around the $20000 mark

[geoffm]

in 1969 a honda cb750 the biggest and best japanese bike was $1995
in 1989 a GSXR1100 Suzuki was $19999
in 2009 a GSXR1000 was floating around the $20000 mark

And to put that into context, the 1969 CB750 was around $31000 in 2012 dollars
The 1989 GSXR11 was $35200 in 2012 dollars
Both from Reserve Bank calculator.
Having said that, in both cases they were the class leaders of the time, and cheaper options were around.
Geoff

[jafar]

Interesting thread so far.

The road bike industry doesn't do much to entice new customers through their doors, new customers seem to be more of the MX / weekend trail ride type than commuter riders.

Farmer's quads appear to account for more sales than road bikes.

The costs of consumables on bikes is high in comparison to cars.

Tyres for a car cost a fraction of bike tyres & the car tyres last a lot longer than the bike ones ever will.

Servicing cost on a bike is higher than a car.

Licence for a bike is a long involved process by comparison to the equivalent car licence.

You can drive a high performance V8 on a restricted licence, with a bike you are limited to a LAMS approved toy.

Bikes are overpriced.

Rego on a bike is nearly twice the cost of a car.

Small cars are more fuel efficient than motorcycles.

Car dealerships are often open 7 days, bike dealerships are not.

There are 2 bike dealerships near me, both of which now supply mainly farm or off road machinery. You can ask for a road bike but they have very limited stock if any as a rule.

[Big Dave]

You are running a complicated car motor in a bike frame though.

My KLR costs much, much less than my Jeep or Merc to run and service.

[nerrrd]

Farmer's quads appear to account for more sales than road bikes.

There are 2 bike dealerships near me, both of which now supply mainly farm or off road machinery. You can ask for a road bike but they have very limited stock if any as a rule.

This is really going to help then :no::

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/8676250/Landcorp-limiting-quad-bike-use

[jafar]

You are running a complicated car motor in a bike frame though.

My KLR costs much, much less than my Jeep or Merc to run and service.

Your not comparing size to size. Jeep & Merc are large cars & your attempting to compare them to a single cylinder bike.
Try comparing a HD or a Ducati with your cars & the figures will be closer than you think:eek:

My DR 650 isn't a complicated car motor in a bike frame, yet my Ford diesel uses less fuel than the DR does :msn-wink:

[spanner spinner]

There are 2 bike dealerships near me, both of which now supply mainly farm or off road machinery. You can ask for a road bike but they have very limited stock if any as a rule.

If your in business you stock and sell what makes you money, or else you go broke. Motorcycle retailers are no different to any other business, supermarkets don't stock was doesn't sell why would a motorcycle shop? If you sell 1 -2 road bikes a month in a good month your not going to stock a full range of 15 odd road bikes. Specially if that money tided up in road bike stock would be better spent stocking more quads which will sell, keep the doors open and the staff paid.

Unfortunately this is the reality of motorcycle retailing in NZ at present. Quads out number all other types of bikes bought into NZ by at least 10 to 1. The only importers that don't rely on quads are the likes of Harley, triumph, BMW etc and these are mainly bought by the baby boomers, the people with disposable income. Most of the motorcycle accessory importers rely on quad tyres and aftermarket parts to see them through most of the year, so with out quads most of these would go to.

[jafar]

This is really going to help then :no::

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/8676250/Landcorp-limiting-quad-bike-use

This will lead to a reduction in the number of Quad bikes sold in NZ. The positive is that most of the farm bike dealers also sell small farm vehicles (Yamaha Rhino. Kawasaki Mule, Suzuki Farmworker, Honda Big red to name a few) so hopefully they will be ok.

[spanner spinner]

And to put that into context, the 1969 CB750 was around $31000 in 2012 dollars
The 1989 GSXR11 was $35200 in 2012 dollars
Both from Reserve Bank calculator.
Having said that, in both cases they were the class leaders of the time, and cheaper options were around.
Geoff

Yes but with tariffs and restrictions on importing cars into NZ check out what the cost of ordinary car was for the same year, and the price was irrelevant if you didn't have overseas funds you weren't getting one no matter how much money you had. This is why most young people bought bikes as there first vehicle. When the only car you could afford to buy was a 30 year old badly build British clunker that was guarantied to break down at least once a week you bought a bike. The bike would be faster, more reliable and way cooler that a shitty old 850 morrie.

[Big Dave]

Yeah Jafar - what I was pointing at is it's too broad a field.

Even so - I reckon in the 'weight for age stakes' the Harley will still be in front.
One of the attractions of the push rod motor is a 8k service is $350
(Last time I had one done anyway). Tyres last very well and they are quite fuel efficient and (regardless of what some write on here) they go for a long time.
The insurance might bring it back to the pack though.

Ducati I don't know at all - except by reputation.


One of you numbers johnnys should do a breakdown - 'typical' car V bike running costs.

[spanner spinner]

This will lead to a reduction in the number of Quad bikes sold in NZ. The positive is that most of the farm bike dealers also sell small farm vehicles (Yamaha Rhino. Kawasaki Mule, Suzuki Farmworker, Honda Big red to name a few) so hopefully they will be ok.

Why would you buy a Yamaha Rhino, Kawasaki Mule, Honda MUV when you can buy a Suzuki farmworker as you said (see link for details http://www.suzuki.co.nz/Automotive/Farmworker/) for less money which is a CAR!!! sold through the car dealerships. Not much help to you local motorcycle shop when the Suzuki car dealer down the road is taking there sales.

[spanner spinner]

Yeah - what I was pointing at is it's too broad a field.

Even so - I reckon in the 'weight for age stakes' the Harley will still be in front.
One of the attractions of the push rod motor is a 8k service is $350
(Last time I had one done anyway). Tyres last very well and they are quite fuel efficient and (regardless of what some write on here) they go for a long time.
The insurance might bring it back to the pack though.

Ducati I don't know at all - except by reputation.


One of you numbers johnnys should do a breakdown - 'typical' car V bike running costs.

You are talking about bikes that someone who is already into the motorcycle thing would own, the running costs become irrelevant if you want one you buy it and pay the price. The issue here is how do you get new people on to motorcycles. When your basic DR650 costs more in fuel that your truck what is the reason to buy one just for transport, this is what use to get people into the bike thing. Motorcycles use to be cheaper to buy, service, rego and use less fuel than a car this is why people bought them as there first form of transport.

[jafar]

Yeah Jafar - what I was pointing at is it's too broad a field.

Even so - I reckon in the 'weight for age stakes' the Harley will still be in front.
One of the attractions of the push rod motor is a 8k service is $350
(Last time I had one done anyway). Tyres last very well and they are quite fuel efficient and (regardless of what some write on here) they go for a long time.
The insurance might bring it back to the pack though.

Ducati I don't know at all - except by reputation.


One of you numbers johnnys should do a breakdown - 'typical' car V bike running costs.

I've done the break downs on car v bike before, it isn't pretty. :no:

Get 2 machines valued @ say $25,000 each, 1 car & 1 bike. Then do the maths on the total ownership cost over a period of time / km, Say a year & 20,000 km, don't forget to include the depreciation factor. :msn-wink:

[caspernz]

The costs and convenience (or lack thereof) of car vs bike...2008 GSX750F for first 3 years cost $0.50 per km and my 2008 XR6 cost $0.65 per km to run...and given that my bike was a budget kind of bike, try it with a GSX-R and the numbers would end up lineball me thinks.

So it just comes back to passion doesn't it? You'll get a bike if you want one, for once you apply logic why would you get a bike nowadays?

But what do I know, trying to work out whether to get a Busa or a ZX14 next? No logic in that question at all...mind you, I did tell the wife both bikes are speed limited :laugh:

[jafar]

Why would you buy a Yamaha Rhino, Kawasaki Mule, Honda MUV when you can buy a Suzuki farmworker as you said (see link for details http://www.suzuki.co.nz/Automotive/Farmworker/) for less money which is a CAR!!! sold through the car dealerships. Not much help to you local motorcycle shop when the Suzuki car dealer down the road is taking there sales.

BUGGER that isn't helping:eek:

[jafar]

The costs and convenience (or lack thereof) of car vs bike...2008 GSX750F for first 3 years cost $0.50 per km and my 2008 XR6 cost $0.65 per km to run...and given that my bike was a budget kind of bike, try it with a GSX-R and the numbers would end up lineball me thinks.

So it just comes back to passion doesn't it? You'll get a bike if you want one, for once you apply logic why would you get a bike nowadays?

But what do I know, trying to work out whether to get a Busa or a ZX14 next? No logic in that question at all...mind you, I did tell the wife both bikes are speed limited :laugh:

Did you tell her that they were speed limited to 300kph ???:no: :laugh:

[caspernz]

Did you tell her that they were speed limited to 300kph ???:no: :laugh:

C'mon, it's 186 and mumble the mph bit haha :rolleyes::cool:

[jafar]

C'mon, it's 186 and mumble the mph bit haha :rolleyes::cool:

Yeah that'll do it :niceone:

[Big Dave]

As you say - it depends on the vehicles. I have a $7.5k bike and a $7.5k car and the bike wins easy.

It's part of the reason I like the KLR. I'm well over the $300 back tyre routine. $180 for the set and it does 400km on a tankful. Fear the awesomeness DR plebs :-)

I wonder how a Vespa compares. The 300GT is a barrel of laughs too.

[GDOBSSOR]

So...my question for this forum, is what do YOU think can be done to encourage more people to ride bikes?



Having done a Roadsafe course recently, I think lots of things can be done to get our young people into motorcycling:
1. Lower the riding age to fourteen or fifteen for 50cc scooter riders only. Ban Chinese scoot/motorcycle imports until the quality improves drastically.
2. Having the LAMS system is great - offers the cheap to run, easy to work on options such as the GN, while offering 'cooler' bikes and bigger CC bikes that are still low powered enough to be suitable for larger learner riders.
3. Market bikes to women more. Harley did a marketing campaign with a supermodel who attained her motorbike license later in life. Other brands should seriously follow suit. Perhaps lots of bikers aren't sick and tired of seeing the status of women in the motorbike community reduced to models that pose for photos in skimpy underwear and look pretty, but I am.
4. Introduce a compulsory moped license for at least six months before you can obtain a learner license - for ANY class of license. Make basic handling skills courses and skills days compulsory for scooter riders. They will associate with bikers there, and it could potentially make some of them think more about biking as a real alternative.
5. If fuel gets beyond about $4 per litre, I have a feeling that we'll see a lot more scooters and bikes around. Also, market them to university students and high school students far far more. I couldn't afford to run a car when I was sixteen. Had I known that rego and insurance and petrol for scooters cost next to nothing, there was unlimited parking near my school available all day for free, and it didn't need a WOF, I'd have got a scooter back in high school instead of waiting till university - parking cost $35 per week. Parking at the university costs about $400 per year. Motorcyclists and scoots don't pay this.
6. Keep putting pressure on ACC to lower their levies... although admittedly it does go towards a few good things, like Roadsafe courses.
Oh, and another thing. STOP building more and more motorways to cater to cages. New Zealand is a beautiful place that shouldn't be defiled by building more roads upon roads upon roads. Eventually, the space to put them will run out. The motorways will full up. Then what will happen?

[Winston001]

Motorcycles in New Zealand fall into three categories:

1. Farm bikes - 4 wheelers. This is a huge market.

2. Scooters and commuters. Very popular.

3. Larger sprots/cruiser/adventure bikes. Lusted after by bystanders but only a few of us buy them.

The only way this will change is if cages become very expensive to buy and run. Which is actually possible if for example, cars were tolled $5 every time they used a different city motorway but bikes trucks and buses were free.

[McFatty1000]

Motorbikes are allowed to use bus lanes in ChCh but that does come with the risk of a car making a right hand turn with their view being blocked by the line of traffic that has let them make the turn. While some bikes have the
similar fuel economy as a small car many do not but still have the accelerating power of a very thirsty car.

Yeah, that and people driving badly/ in the bus lanes make it a bit dodge sometimes
I'd think many of the smaller bikes would become more popular with increasing petrol costs, and the bigger bikes would stay as toys - my old cb250 averaged about 3l/100km and I could still have fun on it (Better than being in an economical car at least). Scorpios and Ginnys would be the same or better

[Edbear]

Speaking logically, the only reasons to buy a bike are traffic and parking. Small scooters win on economy too, but lose out on motorways.

Overall, biking is not about logic, it is about emotion and only a true biker understands that feeling and that inner need. Cars tick more boxes re: practicality and logic, though they too, can be a passion for petrol-heads.

Times are changing and with increasing traffic volumes, read: risk, and costs, fewer are looking to biking as a hobby or passion. The industry needs to promote any practicality they can find to encourage new riders and if they can somehow convey the fun and passion of biking, the camaraderie among the biking fraternity, they will help slow the decline.

[avgas]

Motorcycling is like Smoking. A demographic that requires new blood otherwise it kills off its consumer base.
As for Harley killing off its younger base. You probably right. It's probably following Aston Martins footsteps..........but you know all these kids who have honda civics. A percentage of these would like an Aston Martin. So they drive a Civic until they are say 50 - then buy an Aston Martin.
Same could be said about people who buy Hyosung Aquila's..........when they are 50 - they will get a Harley.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Motorcycles in New Zealand fall into three categories:

1. Farm bikes - 4 wheelers. This is a huge market.

2. Scooters and commuters. Very popular.

3. Larger sprots/cruiser/adventure bikes. Lusted after by bystanders but only a few of us buy them.

The only way this will change is if cages become very expensive to buy and run. Which is actually possible if for example, cars were tolled $5 every time they used a different city motorway but bikes trucks and buses were free.

won't happen. the nazional gubblemunt has a mania for building roads, and the AA is one of the most effective pliticl lobbies in the country.

[Edbear]

won't happen. the nazional gubblemunt has a mania for building roads, and the AA is one of the most effective pliticl lobbies in the country.

The Gummint is being practical. Greenies want us all on bicycles and trains but that is hopelessly ideological. We can say what "should be" until we are blue in the face, that doesn't stop the rapidly increasing number of cars on the roads and the inevitable grid-lock because of it. This is reality and unless people want the traffic to grind to a complete stop in the near future, we have to build more roads. There simply is no other practical option for ther immediate needs.

Sure, provide public transport and encourage its use, also encourage people to live in less populated areas, but people will do whatever they want, as is their right.

[Voltaire]

More roads is not the answer, they fill up and grind to a haul as quick as they build them. Decentralise the cities, surely there is less need to drive all the way in to sit at a desk with all the communication options these days. Why does down town even exist .....

[Winston001]

Greenies want us all on bicycles and trains but that is hopelessly ideological.

Sure, provide public transport and encourage its use, also encourage people to live in less populated areas, but people will do whatever they want, as is their right.

There is a recent study of a UK city (Manchester?) which improved its public transport. They were surprised to find that users just switched to whichever suited them better - train or bus. Thus train patronage grew but bus dropped. Car volumes remained much the same.


More roads is not the answer, they fill up and grind to a haul as quick as they build them. Decentralise the cities, surely there is less need to drive all the way in to sit at a desk with all the communication options these days. Why does down town even exist .....

Good man and well said. Yet its the same all around the world. Maybe it takes 20 years for offices to move away from the CBD.

One idea being tried is business hubs in the suburbs. A modern comfortable building with wifi, cafe, desks chairs, printers etc etc scattered around. The benefit is getting away from home and into a "work" environment, other people around similarly occupied, the ability to take a break and chat to others. Of course this only applies to those who use computers for their job.

[Motu]

You could always flatten a CBD and start again.....

[McFatty1000]

You could always flatten a CBD and start again.....

Tried that. Not sure I enjoyed it so much really...

[jafar]

As you say - it depends on the vehicles. I have a $7.5k bike and a $7.5k car and the bike wins easy.

It's part of the reason I like the KLR. I'm well over the $300 back tyre routine. $180 for the set and it does 400km on a tankful. Fear the awesomeness DR plebs :-)

I wonder how a Vespa compares. The 300GT is a barrel of laughs too.

I'm well over the $300+ rear tyre routine as well, but there are a lot that still pay this & get horrible economy from them. Having said that I doubt they are buying them for the mileage factor:no:

Like we are going to see your sorry arse on a vespa :laugh:

[jafar]

Motorcycles in New Zealand fall into three categories:

1. Farm bikes - 4 wheelers. This is a huge market.

2. Scooters and commuters. Very popular.

3. Larger sprots/cruiser/adventure bikes. Lusted after by bystanders but only a few of us buy them.

The only way this will change is if cages become very expensive to buy and run. Which is actually possible if for example, cars were tolled $5 every time they used a different city motorway but bikes trucks and buses were free.

Scooters & commuters aren't very popular, I see very few of these during the course of a day. It is an area that the bike dealers/distributors could be looking at but for some reason they don't seem to have much interest in this area. Many don't even offer models that are scooters or commuters...

With luck the LAMS list will help, but it won't do much until the motorcycle industry market the advantages of the smaller machines. This takes MONEY & they as a group aren't spending in this area.

Why should the motorist have to pay a toll to use roads they have already paid for & continue to pay for via their rates, registration, fuel levies etc???

[spanner spinner]

Scooters & commuters aren't very popular, I see very few of these during the course of a day. It is an area that the bike dealers/distributors could be looking at but for some reason they don't seem to have much interest in this area. Many don't even offer models that are scooters or commuters...

With luck the LAMS list will help, but it won't do much until the motorcycle industry market the advantages of the smaller machines. This takes MONEY & they as a group aren't spending in this area.

Why should the motorist have to pay a toll to use roads they have already paid for & continue to pay for via their rates, registration, fuel levies etc???

The reason the importers don't bother with scooters is because they don't sell. Counties that have good uptake of scooters is due to either licencing (Italian, able to get a scooter licence at 14 up to 50cc when 16 up to 125cc any other licence wait till your 18) or cheep rego or road toll exemptions, none of which apply here.
In my experience in the industry scooters are mostly bought by people who then expect them to do stuff there not designed for. They want a moped for the cheep rego but then want to keep up with the open road traffic. When you suggest that they really need to buy the 125 they not interested because it costs to much to rego and then they would have to get a motorcycle licence, to much hassle. the buy the 50cc get pissed off when it wont keep up with the traffic and buy a car first chance they get. From then on all bikes are shit because they made the wrong decision based on costs set by LTNZ, easy way for the government to keep people off motorcycles (me cynical, no not at all.....)


as for "the motorcycle industry market the advantages of the smaller machines"NZ's don't buy small bikes, only in the last couple of years has Suzuki made any head way with small bikes with the GN125. Most people want the biggest bike there HP payment will fund them into. Good old supply and demand if there's no demand your not going to stock or promote it as it dead money. The 600's are much better bikes for most NZ roads and more than fast enough but the 1000's still out sell them, we are still stuck in the bigger is better mentality.


Why should the motorist have to pay a toll to use roads they have already paid for & continue to pay for via their rates, registration, fuel levies etc??? because the powers to be can do it and most people will use the new/existing road whinge about the cost but at the end of the day just pay up. Look at the northern motorway extension why should we pay but most road users do. To keep up with the growth of car traffic we need more roads but the funds aren't there to fund the growth any more. The biggest issue is the growth of car ownership in NZ in the last 30 years, we have gone from 1 car per family to multiple cars per family. Dads got one mums got one and the kids either have the old car when they get old enough to learn to drive (good excuse for dad to buy that 4X4 he really needs to drive 10k's down the motorway to work) or quickly buy there own once there at work. Normal mum dad and 2 kids soon have 4 cars.

[Ender EnZed]

Wiki:
Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power., July 2011 They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.

Now, what's left of your economy when this lot retire over the next couple of years? I'd say you're fuckt.


Baby boomers are full of money. Every other industry has realized this and I still think it's ridiculous the extent that the motorcycle industry doesn't.

My old man could've dropped $20-40k on a bike in the last 5 years and he's walked into 2 dozen dealerships with me in the last 5 years but no one has actually tried to "sell him a bike". If a middle aged man goes anywhere near near a BMW or Audi dealership they'll be offering him a blowjob and all the foot massages he can handle before they even think about how much money he actually has. Bike shops simply don't seem to do this.

Which is surprising given that the most expensive motorcycle you can can buy in NZ costs no more than a mid range family saloon.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that if you walk walk into a motorcycle dealership with the intention to buy you will get treated well but there are a significant number of older dudes who don't intend to buy who simply aren't taken as seriously as they should be.



Motorcycles in New Zealand fall into three categories:

1. Farm bikes - 4 wheelers. This is a huge market.

2. Scooters and commuters. Very popular.

3. Larger sprots/cruiser/adventure bikes. Lusted after by bystanders but only a few of us buy them.

The only way this will change is if cages become very expensive to buy and run. Which is actually possible if for example, cars were tolled $5 every time they used a different city motorway but bikes trucks and buses were free.


Dunno about elsewhere but here $800 can get you a WOF'd & Reg'd four-door dunger.

You can carry a shitload of RTD lolly-water, K2 and willing slappers in one - and be warm.

Can't do the same with a motorbike - and it would cost way more to buy, rego etc.



Plus there will always be a sector of 40+ dudes who have always wanted to get into riding and that will then have the money to do it.


Not so sure - often they'll be parents of those wanting to get into bikes, and will help out in certain things - my parents have bought me a number of bits and pieces of gear etc that I wouldn't have afforded by myself. So its not a hard push to see a number of bikes being bought by Mum and Dad for their kids.

Its a cash flow thing; this group tend to have paid off their mortgage, have less expenses etc.


Not so sure - often they'll be parents of those wanting to get into bikes, and will help out in certain things - my parents have bought me a number of bits and pieces of gear etc that I wouldn't have afforded by myself. So its not a hard push to see a number of bikes being bought by Mum and Dad for their kids.

Its a cash flow thing; this group tend to have paid off their mortgage, have less expenses etc.

[Ender EnZed]

Motorcycles in New Zealand fall into three categories:

3. Larger sprots/cruiser/adventure bikes. Lusted after by bystanders but only a few of us buy them.

This is the current boom market.


Dunno about elsewhere but here $800 can get you a WOF'd & Reg'd four-door dunger.

You can carry a shitload of RTD lolly-water, K2 and willing slappers in one - and be warm.

Can't do the same with a motorbike - and it would cost way more to buy, rego etc.

I agree. Motorcycling is not cheap. NZ simply does not have a market for money saving 2 wheelers in the next 10 years. It'd be better for motorcycling if it did, but it doesn't.



Plus there will always be a sector of 40+ dudes who have always wanted to get into riding and that will then have the money to do it.

That's what matter to any economy. Money. It's old dudes who have it that matter, not young dudes who care.


Not so sure - often they'll be parents of those wanting to get into bikes, and will help out in certain things - my parents have bought me a number of bits and pieces of gear etc that I wouldn't have afforded by myself. So its not a hard push to see a number of bikes being bought by Mum and Dad for their kids.

Absolutely. I've put ~$14k of my own money into the NZ motorcycle industry in the last 12 months (maybe $20k in 3 years) and I wouldn't/couldn't have done this without my Dad getting me into motorcycling.


Car dealerships invariably know how to treat everyone who walks in as a potential $100k+ plus customer; relative to this it just doesn't feel worth the afternoon to look at any bike unless you've already made your mind up.

[rocketman1]

Check out Stuff for an article in the motoring or tech section I read the other day. it basically said that young people weren't into cars as much as they were when we were young as social interaction now is centred around screens rather than using the car as a means of socialising. The main car manufacturers were trying to blend social interaction with their cars.

I posted a few years ago about the lack of young fellas on bikes. I can't see any simple motivation to get them back - unless they had a ride on their dads/ uncles/ brothers bikes & caught the bug.

Maybe some have-a-go days put together by motorcycle groups in carparks/ open spaces with 250s may perk interest?

I think you got some pretty good advise in the replies i have read.
just to say that a good motorcycle movie, like Easyrider in the 70's has ahuge impact on the young.
Never been such an influential movie since, except maybe the worlds fastest injun, but that wasnt the type of bike of young people aspire too.
As said before a huge number of youngsters ride trail bikes and motox , i think alot of these youngers will shift to road once they get older, ie too soft to ride offroad.
.

[scumdog]

...like Easyrider in the 70's has ahuge impact on the young.
.

It certainly influenced me and got me going!:niceone:

[Motu]

there are a significant number of older dudes who don't intend to buy who simply aren't taken as seriously as they should be.

I'm an older guy and one thing I fucking HATE !!! is walking into a dealership and having sleezball salesmen follow me around. I won't go back if they do that.

Easyrider and On Any Sunday - put me on the path I've been on ever since. There were also no helmets, good music and chicks didn't wear bras...if the beer was as good as it is now life would've been perfect.

[blue rider]

correct me if i missed it, but maybe you are just focusing to much on one gender.

there are now more female riders than ever i would venture to say, so maybe the market is just ignoring a quite important customer segment?

i own a European beauty and a lovely old Honda.....these where quite easy buy, but female friendly gear and service.......aaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

horrible, horrible horrible.

so i would suggest to not only look at the bloke, but also the girls. it might make for interesting reading.