Coming to a town near you, like it or not!

[oldrider]

New Zealand the way "you" want it? http://socialistaotearoa.blogspot.co.nz/

While the country slumbers these people are really busy and taxpayers are keeping them in pocket money while they do it!

[mashman]

New Zealand the way "you" want it? http://socialistaotearoa.blogspot.co.nz/

While the country slumbers these people are really busy and taxpayers are keeping them in pocket money while they do it!

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... :headbang: rock on

[Scuba_Steve]

Fucked up thing is it'd cost less to let people ride for free than it costs to charge them, but they reckon charging people is "crowd control"... probably works about as well as parking tickets to "keep cars moving".

[Hitcher]

The "Money Grows On Trees" Party. Entitlement complexes like this give me the screaming shits.

[scissorhands]

the people are revolting

[Edbear]

The "Money Grows On Trees" Party. Entitlement complexes like this give me the screaming shits.

The Govt. has an endless supply of money to give these idiots everything for free. Of course they don't understand where the Govt. gets the money from, and would never dream of contributing to the country's coffers to pay for all this "free" stuff... :no:


the people are revolting

Some sure are... :(

[Akzle]

how do i get some free shit?

[Madness]

how do i get some free shit?

Move to Auckland.

[Oakie]

Trendy-lefty tree-hugging, yoghurt slurping, sandal wearing hippies!

[Mom]

We support fare dodgers :facepalm:

Though What a socialist Aotearoa would look like, presents itself as a blank screen on my browser which is intriguing...

Professional shit stirrers and society leaches the lot.

[blue rider]

well they are right about something.

People are fed up, they work, they don't earn enough, they pay more and more taxes for less and less services.
Job security is something of the past that the young ones of today will never know. How one without Job security is ever going to get a loan for a house? Ahh never mind, pesky details.

And recently over 1100 (and the count is still going on) mostly female machinists in Bangladesh DID loose their lifes in a collapsed building that was not up to the limited standards bangladesh offers.


so much outrage over a bomb in the USA that killed a few, so little outrage over the killing of so many.

Maybe just maybe, some of our prioritys are just simply fucked.
but hey, anything is better than being labelled a lefty, or left leaning, or a socialist, or a communist, or a hippie, or worse a dirty fucking hippie....priorities.


In the meantime in NZ

http://pundit.co.nz/content/i-think-...r-constitution

[jasonu]

how do i get some free shit?

Get off your lazy coon arse and earn it.:tugger:

[Jantar]

They can't even get the science right so what chance is there that they can get the political and financial aspects right?

They claim that the CO2 concentration has topped 400 ppm for the first time ever, so they obviously read the initial press release but ignored the follow up. http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-carbon-dioxide-400-20130513,0,7196126.story

[mashman]

well they are right about something.

People are fed up, they work, they don't earn enough, they pay more and more taxes for less and less services.
Job security is something of the past, that the young ones of today will never know. How one without Job security is ever going to get a loan for a house? Ahh never mind, pesky details.

And recently over 1100 (and the count is still going on) mostly female machinists in Bangladesh DID loose their lifes in a collapsed building that was not up to the limited standards bangladesh offers.

so much outrage over a bomb in the USA that killed a few, so little outrage over the killing of so many.

Maybe just maybe, some of our prioritys are just simply fucked.
but hey, anything is better than being labelled a lefty, or left leaning, or a socialist, or a communist, or a hippie, or worse a dirty fucking hippie....priorities.

In the meantime in NZ

http://pundit.co.nz/content/i-think-...r-constitution

Cannot spread for you again. Ya getz what ya willing to pay for eh... or not as the case may be.


Get off your lazy coon arse and earn it.:tugger:

If he's blick, shouldn't he just take it? He'd probably get picked on if he had to take a job. Although when you say earn. Would getting up at 3:30a.m., traveling across town, preparing for a job and then "taking" the booty be considered earning it?

[scumdog]

Bloody dreamin' drongos the lot of them - too stupid for KB even...:rolleyes:

[Edbear]

Bloody dreamin' drongos the lot of them - too stupid for KB even...:rolleyes:

Never underestimate KB... :laugh:

[Akzle]

Move to Auckland.

totally not worth it.


but i'll take yours on my way through...

[HenryDorsetCase]

the people are revolting

true, but one does need someone to clean one's toilet.

[caspernz]

Bloody dreamin' drongos the lot of them - too stupid for KB even...:rolleyes:

So can I find them on Facebook then? :laugh::rolleyes: Oh hang on, I'm too clever to be on that :apumpin:

[Banditbandit]

New Zealand the way "you" want it? http://socialistaotearoa.blogspot.co.nz/

While the country slumbers these people are really busy and taxpayers are keeping them in pocket money while they do it!



Yes - just like the billions of dollars handed out to Financial Institutions (the free market capitalists) in recent times. But then, I supose the $1.6billion (yes, with a B) given to South canterbury Finance way too much to be called "pocket money" ...

I suppose that you object to taxpayers money going as pocket money for the poor but not as pocket money for the rich ... if you answer Yes then I am going to yell hypocrite !!!

[Banditbandit]

http://theinexpert.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/i-want-to-like-people-but-14056.png?w=640

[gwigs]

283020


this is so true....

[oldrider]

283020


this is so true....

True? .... Some things to think about that may or may not support that notion!

Give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws! Quote by Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild.

Who were/are the Rothschild's: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311

Motto: Divided (from all others) we stand, united (Integrated with all others) we fall.

[Akzle]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=283034&stc=1&d=1369037652
. .

[oldrider]

Yes - just like the billions of dollars handed out to Financial Institutions (the free market capitalists) in recent times. But then, I supose the $1.6billion (yes, with a B) given to South canterbury Finance way too much to be called "pocket money" ...

I suppose that you object to taxpayers money going as pocket money for the poor but not as pocket money for the rich ... if you answer Yes then I am going to yell hypocrite !!!

Careful, you are tending to shoot the messenger, I posted it so that you and any other readers could please your self what you do with it! :innocent:

[gwigs]

True? .... Some things to think about that may or may not support that notion!

Give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws! Quote by Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild.

Who were/are the Rothschild's: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311

Motto: Divided (from all others) we stand, united (Integrated with all others) we fall.

This refers to the BIG BANKSTERS that stole from the world just recently ....
The ones that have held the world to ransom...making the poor pay for their greed..

[paturoa]

well they are right about something.

People are fed up, they work, they don't earn enough, they pay more and more taxes for less and less services.
Job security is something of the past that the young ones of today will never know. How one without Job security is ever going to get a loan for a house? Ahh never mind, pesky details.

And recently over 1100 (and the count is still going on) mostly female machinists in Bangladesh DID loose their lifes in a collapsed building that was not up to the limited standards bangladesh offers.

so much outrage over a bomb in the USA that killed a few, so little outrage over the killing of so many.

Maybe just maybe, some of our prioritys are just simply fucked.
but hey, anything is better than being labelled a lefty, or left leaning, or a socialist, or a communist, or a hippie, or worse a dirty fucking hippie....priorities.


I totally agree that there are a bunch of fucked up things with the current "western" financial and political setups. However when I look at some of the alternatives, I think we should be working on making what we have now better, rather than throwing it away.

[mashman]

I totally agree that there are a bunch of fucked up things with the current "western" financial and political setups. However when I look at some of the alternatives, I think we should be working on making what we have now better, rather than throwing it away.

What alternatives?

[blue rider]

I totally agree that there are a bunch of fucked up things with the current "western" financial and political setups. However when I look at some of the alternatives, I think we should be working on making what we have now better, rather than throwing it away.



the current fucked up things with the world were not fucked up by a bunch of wannabe socialists, they were fucked up by a bunch of hardcore free market freaks, that are unfortunatly considered the good guys,

i am tired of labels, they serve only to put the populace, or citizenry in their place. divide and conquer......but at least you are not the lefty.

[oldrider]

What alternatives?

The system we (the world) uses now is compounding "Social Debt". ( results in continuous wars booms bust and damn it unnecessary mass death)

To date, this is my preferred "alternative" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit judge for your self and tell me, if I am wrong? :confused:

[Akzle]

anyone mentioned that the pope dude is actually an alien devil?

[gwigs]

the current fucked up things with the world were not fucked up by a bunch of wannabe socialists, they were fucked up by a bunch of hardcore free market freaks, that are unfortunatly considered the good guys,

i am tired of labels, they serve only to put the populace, or citizenry in their place. divide and conquer......but at least you are not the lefty.

I agree...squeek squeek ......I understand now ..

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uK92NYwBMts?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[gwigs]

anyone mentioned that the pope dude is actually an alien devil?

The Royal family are supposed to be Alien reptiles....well at least Camilla...

[mashman]

The system we (the world) uses now is compounding "Social Debt". ( results in continuous wars booms bust and damn it unnecessary mass death)

To date, this is my preferred "alternative" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit judge for your self and tell me, if I am wrong? :confused:

That was gently put.

I remember reading that when you posted it a few years ago... and whilst I agree with many of the principles I still think that trying to manage the country using a financial mechanism is a flaw that will only ever lead to A+B for the benefit of C being the resultant societal model. Why put a known corrupting influence into an economy? As Douglas stated, production is only undertaken for consumption purposes and whilst that's obviously true, I don't believe that production is driven by consumption, but that consumption is driven by production i.e. if it's there, you will "buy" it. Not a very smart way to manage resources imho. But I did love "what we really demand of existence is not that we shall be put into somebody else's Utopia, but we shall be put in a position to construct a Utopia of our own". Makes perfect sense to me.

This is where a Resource Based Economy comes into it's for me. You make the best drill you can and you leave it at the tool masters place. If you need the drill you go and borrow it. When finished, return it. Much better than 50 drills for 50 people where the drill is only used 5 or 6 times per year. Do that with just about everything and noone need go without.

I'd love to know what sort of system your fave "socialist" webels would prefer.

[gwigs]

That was gently put.

I remember reading that when you posted it a few years ago... and whilst I agree with many of the principles I still think that trying to manage the country using a financial mechanism is a flaw that will only ever lead to A+B for the benefit of C being the resultant societal model. Why put a known corrupting influence into an economy? As Douglas stated, production is only undertaken for consumption purposes and whilst that's obviously true, I don't believe that production is driven by consumption, but that consumption is driven by production i.e. if it's there, you will "buy" it. Not a very smart way to manage resources imho. But I did love "what we really demand of existence is not that we shall be put into somebody else's Utopia, but we shall be put in a position to construct a Utopia of our own". Makes perfect sense to me.

This is where a Resource Based Economy comes into it's for me. You make the best drill you can and you leave it at the tool masters place. If you need the drill you go and borrow it. When finished, return it. Much better than 50 drills for 50 people where the drill is only used 5 or 6 times per year. Do that with just about everything and noone need go without.

I'd love to know what sort of system your fave "socialist" webels would prefer.

I love the idea of a resource based economy....its really the only way to for man to survive...

[mashman]

I love the idea of a resource based economy....its really the only way to for man to survive...

Yup, definitely with you on that.

[Berries]

anyone mentioned that the pope dude is actually an alien devil?
Lots of little choir boys allegedly.

[oldrider]

I'd love to know what sort of system your fave "socialist" webels would prefer.

They all support the current "social debt" system because remember, he who pays the piper calls the tune!

Remember Bob Jones and his New Zealand Party, supposedly ousting Muldoon?

All he really achieved was to remove Bruce Beatham and the Social Credit party as a viable alternative to National and Labour! (21% of the vote 2 seats)

Muldoon stayed on as a politician on the public tit until he retired and Bob Jones quit as soon as Beatham was a gone burger! (monetary mission accomplished)

The electorate was then hungry for proportional representation and as an alternative to FPP they bullshitted the electorate into accepting MMP.

MMP is the one that best suits the needs of the politicians rather than the electorate ... hook, line and sinker. IMHO :facepalm: (Progress?) :brick:

[oldrider]

Mashman, I found this site by accident and noticed that they refer to your cashless society in one of the side bits but I haven't had time to read it!

You may like to have a lookee see at it! [ http://michaeljournal.org/home.htm ]

Interesting that the new Pope is making noises against the monetary powers and that this site was sanctioned by the Pope that was (murdered?) err died!

Pope John Paul 2 was it?

The internet is full of surprises isn't it!

[mashman]

They all support the current "social debt" system because remember, he who pays the piper calls the tune!

Remember Bob Jones and his New Zealand Party, supposedly ousting Muldoon?

All he really achieved was to remove Bruce Beatham and the Social Credit party as a viable alternative to National and Labour! (21% of the vote 2 seats)

Muldoon stayed on as a politician on the public tit until he retired and Bob Jones quit as soon as Beatham was a gone burger! (monetary mission accomplished)

The electorate was then hungry for proportional representation and as an alternative to FPP they bullshitted the electorate into accepting MMP.

MMP is the one that best suits the needs of the politicians rather than the electorate ... hook, line and sinker. IMHO :facepalm: (Progress?) :brick:

Ahhhhhh yes... keep your friends close.

Fortunately I've had the good fortune to not have to take part in the "politics" of living for a vast chunk of my life. It was what it was, it is what it is... who the fuck am I to say otherwise. Tis one of them new found regrets. From that perspective I can see how easy it would be to discredit the idea of social credit and set about giving the people what they believe that they asked for. We've no memory of what once happened, we generally don't care what's happening, we've bought into it, celebrate it, even defend it and those who have made "us" this way... so so easy to do what they want really. But we still have the right to vote for the most popular party once every 3 years, so it can't be all bad. Can it?

Tis a shame that the political setup doesn't change a damned thing eh. I hope the rebel rousers get their point across and something else kicks off, coz something has to change.

[mashman]

Mashman, I found this site by accident and noticed that they refer to your cashless society in one of the side bits but I haven't had time to read it!

You may like to have a lookee see at it! [ http://michaeljournal.org/home.htm ]

Interesting that the new Pope is making noises against the monetary powers and that this site was sanctioned by the Pope that was (murdered?) err died!

Pope John Paul 2 was it?

The internet is full of surprises isn't it!

Cheers John, I'll give it a read through when I gets me time tomorrow.

[Akzle]

Tis a shame that the political setup doesn't change a damned thing eh. I hope the rebel rousers get their point across and something else kicks off, coz something has to change.

why leave it to us rabble?

it needs to come from the people. (tha's you, sorry to say)
so.. if you must vote, vote no confidence.
do not stop for, or speak to, crown policy enforcement officers,
stop paying crown fees,
stop (as best you can) paying tax or levies (wages protection act wins over "employment contract")
give your time and wealth as freely as you can,
plant some shit,
smoke some shit,
turn your phone off,
get rid of your TV(s...)
find your god,
enjoy life.

[mashman]

why leave it to us rabble?

it needs to come from the people. (tha's you, sorry to say)
so.. if you must vote, vote no confidence.
do not stop for, or speak to, crown policy enforcement officers,
stop paying crown fees,
stop (as best you can) paying tax or levies (wages protection act wins over "employment contract")
give your time and wealth as freely as you can,
plant some shit,
smoke some shit,
turn your phone off,
get rid of your TV(s...)
find your god,
enjoy life.

Coz youz iz all mental.

Agreed.
They don't deserve my time.
That's just wude.
But think about the children.
Think about the children.
I'm working on that one.
I did.
I did.
I can't coz it has Candy Crush on it.
Why the fuck would I get rid of the babysitter?
She lies next to me.
I used to.

[Banditbandit]

Careful, you are tending to shoot the messenger, I posted it so that you and any other readers could please your self what you do with it! :innocent:

Hmmm .. the second sentence of your first post certainly establishes a positon on the message - I took aim at that, not the message.


I totally agree that there are a bunch of fucked up things with the current "western" financial and political setups. However when I look at some of the alternatives, I think we should be working on making what we have now better, rather than throwing it away.

Yeah ... I agree .. we do have about the best system that has been ever truly trialled - but that does not mean it is perfect. It happens to be pretty fucked up right now ... and there are ways to make it work better for everyone ...

[scumdog]

why leave it to us rabble?

it needs to come from the people. (tha's you, sorry to say)
so.. if you must vote, vote no confidence.
do not stop for, or speak to, crown policy enforcement officers,
stop paying crown fees,
stop (as best you can) paying tax or levies (wages protection act wins over "employment contract")
give your time and wealth as freely as you can,
plant some shit,
smoke some shit,
turn your phone off,
get rid of your TV(s...)
find your god,
suffer life.

Fixed:niceone:

[Banditbandit]

The system we (the world) uses now is compounding "Social Debt". ( results in continuous wars booms bust and damn it unnecessary mass death)

To date, this is my preferred "alternative" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit judge for your self and tell me, if I am wrong? :confused:

Douglas Credit - nowe there is an idea .... Neither leftwing nor rightwing - outsidde the box ...

I've always like the concept - and I've always agreed with the idea that the total amount of goods in society must be equal to the total amount of money available to purchase those goods. Or, to rephrase it, a businessman who produces goods puts into circulation the eact amount of money needed to produce those goods (materials, labour and other costs) - the businesman has spent an amount of money to make his goods (has taken the money out of his bank and put it into circulation by spending it) ... this is true for services as well as goods . soe needs to be the amount of money in circulation for peope to purchase those goods. But a whole host of factors mean that there is never quite enough money to equal al the goods in circulation ...

Because money only has a semiotic, or symbolic, value, (it's a symbol of exchange) the answer is to add more money into the system so there are enough symbols to match the solid reality of the available goods and services.


.

I'd love to know what sort of system your fave "socialist" webels would prefer.

Actually, Douglas Credit works just as well under a truly socialist/communist system as in the so-called western free market economies - as there still needs to be an equality between the symbols in circulation and the goods and services available to purchase ... there is probably a better chance of making it work in a truly socialist sciety than in our western democracies .. and it would even work in Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat/anarchist society .. just that the symbols of exchange might be called something other than "money" ...


They all support the current "social debt" system because remember, he who pays the piper calls the tune!

Yes .. they seem to not accept that money is simply a symbol of exchange ... but also the hegemonic processes push people to adopt the current system without question.


Remember Bob Jones and his New Zealand Party, supposedly ousting Muldoon?

All he really achieved was to remove Bruce Beatham and the Social Credit party as a viable alternative to National and Labour! (21% of the vote 2 seats)

Muldoon stayed on as a politician on the public tit until he retired and Bob Jones quit as soon as Beatham was a gone burger! (monetary mission accomplished)

Boh Jones wanted Roger Douglas and Co in .. he got that ... Social Credit was a side issue for him.


The electorate was then hungry for proportional representation and as an alternative to FPP they bullshitted the electorate into accepting MMP.

MMP is the one that best suits the needs of the politicians rather than the electorate ... hook, line and sinker. IMHO :facepalm: (Progress?) :brick:

Hang on - The country wanted some form of proportional voting ... and choose MMP. The major parties of the day were against MMP . and did talk about how to get their message across ... but after the first referendum vote the major parties decided that it might be political suicide to go against the wishes of the people at that time .. so they backed off coing ouut too strongly for FFP ... and left that to Peter Shirtclife and his mates ..

[oldrider]

Fair enough! Like a game of rugby, we all see the same game but from a different place in the park so I guess that can account for a different aspect on the game! :niceone:

[oldrider]

Years ago I read one of these and it did help me to simplisticly understand what C H Douglas was on about, I post it in the same light.

I didn't know some of this stuff was available on the net! http://michaeljournal.org/myth.htm

As Banditbandit says, it doesn't matter which ism you follow, (Communism Capitalism etc) it won't work if you don't get the money system to support it!

That's what Rothschild was on about, the secret of their success! Give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws!

[mashman]

Actually, Douglas Credit works just as well under a truly socialist/communist system as in the so-called western free market economies - as there still needs to be an equality between the symbols in circulation and the goods and services available to purchase ... there is probably a better chance of making it work in a truly socialist sciety than in our western democracies .. and it would even work in Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat/anarchist society .. just that the symbols of exchange might be called something other than "money" ...

I understand how it works and on the face of it looks much better than what we have. However the problem with capitalism isn't what the money represents, it's the money itself. Sure money has been misrepresented when holding it up to Social Credit, but they both inherently have the same problem.

A good/service/production has a value. That value is X based on scarcity/time/materials etc... used to produce. The first "problem" is who is going to value the "resources". The second "problem" is where are the profits going to go? It doesn't all go into the National Dividend, so we're going to have to produce more money. The profit/earnings becomes dead money, granted ready to be used at some point, but it does not have to be used. It'll sit in the "bank" doing nothing. So more money is produced. So for every $ of dead money you're going to have to print another live 1 as it has technically gone out of circulation. Sure you could put an expiry date on the money to stop this, but then all you're encouraging is rampant consumerism. We'll end up with production driving consumption again.

This is from the link that Oldrider threw up (http://michaeljournal.org/myth.htm). It's worth a wee read as it explains the banking system and Social credit quite well. It also explains "my idea" right up to point of "5. Arrival of a refugee". Instead of managing themselves by resource, they decided that they needed money and it all went tits. The happy ending being Social Credit to save the day. But what happens when they're down to their last dozen trees? The price of a spinning top will be astronomical. The solution being to print more money so that the spinning top can be bought. Does that stop the last dozen trees from being chopped down? No. And once that happens, how does the chippy earn his money? An RBE would tell the others to get fucked, there's nearly no trees left, we need them for essentials and essentials only and with any luck that'll give the time for more trees to return... and if it's a financialless RBE (is there any other way?), then his life will not be impacted by becoming unemployed. Praprs he'll retrain.

blah blah blah... a symbolic exchange mechanism just doesn't work on the scale we're talking about these days and irrespective of how it is created, money still flows up.

[Banditbandit]

A good/service/production has a value. That value is X based on scarcity/time/materials etc... used to produce. The first "problem" is who is going to value the "resources".

No . the valuie of the item is the cost of the labour to get it (here si where I would put a "profit" for the bisiness owner - his paymnt for his work) ... plus the orher costs (fuel, electricity machnery running costs) ... if this is a piece for further productrion then it becomes part of the cost of the next step ... whether or not the resource has any value depends on its use value, not its symbolic monetary value.



The second "problem" is where are the profits going to go? It doesn't all go into the National Dividend, so we're going to have to produce more money.

Yes - which is where the "priting money" stuff comes from .. yes it is necessary to print money.


The profit/earnings becomes dead money, granted ready to be used at some point, but it does not have to be used. It'll sit in the "bank" doing nothing.

Yes - this is why I said "a whole host of factors mean that there is never quite enough money to equal all the goods in circulation"


So more money is produced. So for every $ of dead money you're going to have to print another live 1 as it has technically gone out of circulation. Sure you could put an expiry date on the money to stop this, but then all you're encouraging is rampant consumerism. We'll end up with production driving consumption again.

No .. the problem is how much money to print .... how to calculate the exact value of the goods in circulation availabel to be purchased, so that there is an exact amount of money in circulation ... purchasing power must equal available goods . otherwise you get all the negative things that happen in our economy now .... and it must be an exacvt equation or the system wil not work. You do not have to know how much dead money there is - you only have to kno the value of goosds to be purchased (a hard one I admit) and thje total amoutn of money in circulation ...

See, I can't afford to buy that new bike because I don't have enough money ... when there are too many people with not enough money goods do not move (are not sold) bad for the manufacturer ... no income ... must lay off staff (now there is even less money in circulation) ... THis is not rocket science ...

"Consumerism" as you put it is not necessarily "a bad thing" .. over consumption certainly is ... but rampant consumerism occurs when the symbols circulating in the economy outweigh the goods available to be puchased ..


This is from the link that Oldrider threw up. It's worth a wee read as it explains the banking system and Social credit quite well. It also explains "my idea" right up to point of "5. Arrival of a refugee". Instead of managing themselves by resource, they decided that they needed money and it all went tits. The happy ending being Social Credit to save the day. But what happens when they're down to their last dozen trees? The price of a spinning top will be astronomical.

Naaa .. see that is the law of supplyy and demand .. but if the total of the value symbols circulating in the economy equals ths value of the goods available to purchase then supply and demand does not apply. Value is not placed in that context.


The solution being to print more money so that the spinning top can be bought. Does that stop the last dozen trees from being chopped down? No. And once that happens, how does the chippy earn his money? An RBE would tell the others to get fucked, there's nearly no trees left, we need them for essentials and essentials only and with any luck that'll give the time for more trees to return... and if it's a financialless RBE (is there any other way?), then his life will not be impacted by becoming unemployed. Praprs he'll retrain.


Hmmm ... the trees aere growing in value - why cut them down all at once? There has NEVER been a biological species which has any kind of value go to extinction ... (are farm animals on the verge of extinction? Hell no. Are wild animals? Hell Yes!!!) there have been species with no value go to extinction .. if soemthignis worth money it is worth conserving .. if it has no value who gives a fuck ... and itr dies ... If the trees are so important the chippy will replant .. ensures on going supply ..



blah blah blah... a symbolic exchange mechanism just doesn't work on the scale we're talking about these days and irrespective of how it is created, money still flows up.



WTF ???? Money is a symblic exchange mechanism ...

[oldrider]

While we are on this subject, some of you may be interested in just who C H Douglas was: http://michaeljournal.org/douglas.htm (about one page of reading!)

His legacy was still alive when I was a young just married man struggling to find my way politically and I found him rather compelling.

[mashman]

No . the valuie of the item is the cost of the labour to get it (here si where I would put a "profit" for the bisiness owner - his paymnt for his work) ... plus the orher costs (fuel, electricity machnery running costs) ... if this is a piece for further productrion then it becomes part of the cost of the next step ... whether or not the resource has any value depends on its use value, not its symbolic monetary value.


Those extras are a part of the etc... I added above. Why produce anything if it will have no value? And what happens when the value of what has been produced devalues and is sold off cheaper than it was originally produced for (not the actual costs, but the projected sale price)? i.e. selling off stock that you can't shift to make way for new stock.



Yes - which is where the "priting money" stuff comes from .. yes it is necessary to print money.

Yes - this is why I said "a whole host of factors mean that there is never quite enough money to equal all the goods in circulation"


Yes, I get that bit... and yes I understand that any form of economic model that requires money to be used as a token will require said tokens to be "produced". Capitalism does that too.



No .. the problem is how much money to print .... how to calculate the exact value of the goods in circulation availabel to be purchased, so that there is an exact amount of money in circulation ... purchasing power must equal available goods . otherwise you get all the negative things that happen in our economy now .... and it must be an exacvt equation or the system wil not work. You do not have to know how much dead money there is - you only have to kno the value of goosds to be purchased (a hard one I admit) and thje total amoutn of money in circulation ...

See, I can't afford to buy that new bike because I don't have enough money ... when there are too many people with not enough money goods do not move (are not sold) bad for the manufacturer ... no income ... must lay off staff (now there is even less money in circulation) ... THis is not rocket science ...

"Consumerism" as you put it is not necessarily "a bad thing" .. over consumption certainly is ... but rampant consumerism occurs when the symbols circulating in the economy outweigh the goods available to be puchased ..


That's not a problem at all. If the good has the value and it has been produced, then surely the money has to be printed to purchase that good. In other words the producer logs on to a system, types in the details of the good and adds the value it was produced for and value it is to be sold for et voila. The problem comes when the good is sold for less that you stated that it would be sold for. Even then it needn't be a problem as there will just be more money in circulation thatn there should have been. No biggy... unless it leads to rampant consumerism that is.

If the bike isn't produced you can't have it either. Anyhoo, do you have a point there? coz that's a risk that any financial based economy can suffer from. Tis fuckin bonkers considering that production is supposed to be undertaken on the basis of there being a need for a good. As you say, supply and demand. But that's bullshit as we don't work that way. We assume that there's a demand and we supply, otherwise businesses wouldn't fail.

I never said that consumerism is a bad thing. Over consumption can only work if there has been over production in the first place... and given that your entire financial economy is going to work based on the production of goods, I can't see that being "tempered" with any form of sense or reason where money accumulation is still the goal instead of producing what people need and then offering them toys.



Naaa .. see that is the law of supplyy and demand .. but if the total of the value symbols circulating in the economy equals ths value of the goods available to purchase then supply and demand does not apply. Value is not placed in that context.

I almost agree, however supply and demand would boil would merely shift focus to supply goods because of the demand for money.



Hmmm ... the trees aere growing in value - why cut them down all at once? There has NEVER been a biological species which has any kind of value go to extinction ... (are farm animals on the verge of extinction? Hell no. Are wild animals? Hell Yes!!!) there have been species with no value go to extinction .. if soemthignis worth money it is worth conserving .. if it has no value who gives a fuck ... and itr dies ... If the trees are so important the chippy will replant .. ensures on going supply ..

I wasn't going all green and environmental, more Rapa Nui... but I did enjoy your little rant :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapa_Nui_people...



WTF ???? Money is a symblic exchange mechanism ...

Like totally yah ha... and much much more, as will continue to be the case should it be THE mechanism of exchange.

[oldrider]

An answer to two common accusations. (The extremes of communism and capitalism)

One accuses the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few as leading to Communism. This is true, because this concentration leaves the mass of have-nots easily open to communist or socialist propaganda. Or because the State intervenes with the goal to break the monopoly and nationalize big industry and this leads to State Socialism. But one should not conclude from this that sound capitalism is wrong. Indeed, it is the present financial system that leads to the concentration of capital in the hands of a few, thus vitiating capitalism and opening up the way to Communism.

One also accuses the present capitalist system of creating new artificial needs in order to sell its abundant production and thus leading to consumerism and materialism, just as efficiently as the atheistic and materialistic laws of Communist countries would do.

Here again, one must not accuse the capitalist economy in itself, but the financial system, of which the controllers refuse to distribute purchasing power in other ways than employment in production: no job, no money. Progress, which should be a blessing by freeing man from the need for employment becomes on the contrary, a curse, a problem, when the income disappears along with employment. Then one will look for solutions in the production of new material goods. Yet, these new goods have to be sold and to this end, artificial needs must also be created. People must be convinced that they need these new products, which contributes to outright materialism. The dignity of man is ruthlessly sacrificed to the necessity of keeping production going, even though the production already made is more than sufficient to meet the basic needs of all. It is certainly a drive towards materialism. It also contributes to the unnecessary waste of resources and destruction of the environment.

In a Social Credit financial system, human greed would still exist, but it would not be stimulated or imposed by the necessity of purchasing power tied to employment. The social dividend to all would dissociate purchasing power from employment in production and would lead society in the way opposite of materialism.

French philosopher Maritain, said that progress that is used wisely, should not lead to a civilization of work, but to a civilization of contemplation.

Would not this new humanism, allow man to free himself from materialism and to "enjoy the higher values of love, friendship and contemplation?" Would it not be well served by the adoption of the Social Credit financial proposals?

These proposals were conceived in 1917 by Scottish engineer Clifford Hugh Douglas, but were persistently refused and fought, even by university professors and other members of the elite. (why? FFS)

Centralist governments struggle to find common ground between the two extremes but always fail because the current social debt financial system determines that they fail before they even begin!

A and B fighting for the benefit of C ... we can forgive A and B for they know not what they do but C are the true 1% that are killing the world we live in!

Simply disenfranchise "C" .... and change the world forever. :niceone:

[mashman]

In a Social Credit financial system, human greed would still exist, but it would not be stimulated or imposed by the necessity of purchasing power tied to employment. The social dividend to all would dissociate purchasing power from employment in production and would lead society in the way opposite of materialism.

Simply disenfranchise "C" .... and change the world forever. :niceone:

How can purchasing power not be tied to employment?

Or remove the mechanism that gives them their power. What's your objection to a Resource Based Economy, one without a financial system?

[Banditbandit]

How can purchasing power not be tied to employment?

Or remove the mechanism that gives them their power. What's your objection to a Resource Based Economy, one without a financial system?

The social welfare system is one way that purchasing power is not tied to employment

oh, it may be tied in that you only get it if you are NOT employed .. it's a link ... but if you lose your job you don't lose your purchasing power .. just most of it ...

And yeah .it's an important consideration because as unemploymetn increases the economy slows (yeah, it's way two way impact) .. as less people have money to spend, other jobs are lost, shops close ... and unemployment increases ... if you maintain a minimum level of purchasing power through social welfare there is a smaller impact on the economy ... if GodZone really did cut the dole there would be a BIG increase in unemployment ..

[gwigs]

283090

The truth about unemployment..

[mashman]

The social welfare system is one way that purchasing power is not tied to employment

oh, it may be tied in that you only get it if you are NOT employed .. it's a link ... but if you lose your job you don't lose your purchasing power .. just most of it ...

And yeah .it's an important consideration because as unemploymetn increases the economy slows (yeah, it's way two way impact) .. as less people have money to spend, other jobs are lost, shops close ... and unemployment increases ... if you maintain a minimum level of purchasing power through social welfare there is a smaller impact on the economy ... if GodZone really did cut the dole there would be a BIG increase in unemployment ..

Where does the money for social welfare come from. Is it tied to employment?

It's only an important consideration because of money. It's that simple. Remove money from your scenario and what are you left with?

[scumdog]

The truth about unemployment..

Well according to Jason Read it is....<_<

[Edbear]

Well according to Jason Read it is....<_<

Anyone using expressions such as "The Ruling Class" or "The Elite" to run down the Governments must of course be telling the Gospel truth and it must not be questioned as it is absolute fact. :rolleyes:

You must understand, there is a shadowy group of unkown and unknowable persons behind the scenes in all the Western countries who pull the strings of all in power and have this ultimate conspiracy to rule the world and eliminate all in opposition. :msn-wink:

[Scuba_Steve]

Anyone using expressions such as "The Ruling Class" or "The Elite" to run down the Governments must of course be telling the Gospel truth and it must not be questioned as it is absolute fact. :rolleyes:

You must understand, there is a shadowy group of unkown and unknowable persons behind the scenes in all the Western countries who pull the strings of all in power and have this ultimate conspiracy to rule the world and eliminate all in opposition. :msn-wink:

http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/f8/f8b3a0ed2810ca1796a4eaae526c3a33e99735df_full.jpg

[Banditbandit]

Where does the money for social welfare come from. Is it tied to employment?

It's only an important consideration because of money. It's that simple. Remove money from your scenario and what are you left with?

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.


If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

[Edbear]

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.


If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

LOL!! Could be right there... :laugh:

[mashman]

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.

If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.


LOL!! Could be right there... :laugh:

Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules. As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through :niceone:

[Edbear]

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.



Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules. As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through :niceone:

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.

[mashman]

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.

hmmmmm, does that void my post :innocent:

[Edbear]

hmmmmm, does that void my post :innocent:

I still believe that until you get the general populace into altruism, any system is going to have problems.

It's not the monetary system or otherwise that is the issue, but people's greed for wealth and power. Currently wealth is measured by the dollar, but whatever you replace it with, people will still seek to dominate and rise above their fellow.

[Banditbandit]

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Yash .. naa bro .. because all "work" is not equal in time it takes . ad materials needed ... If I spend one hour fixing a bike for a mate do I accept one hour's work in exchange or do I demand two hours work ??? Two hours of what it would take me to do a job or two hours of what it migfht take my mate (who is highly qualified and experienced in the job I want in exchange)


Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.


I like the idea .. Have you read Ursula's Le Guin's The Dispossessed? But human nature is against you, I am sorry to say .. much as I would like it to be otherwise ..



Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules.

Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. (See the sentences a coupel of centimetres above - huiman nature ... )




As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through :niceone:

There's a big difference between the rules I live by and what I say here and what I see happening around me .. I'll still be a cycnical old cunt ....

[Banditbandit]

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.


hmmmmm, does that void my post :innocent:

Yes .. my fingers never learnt to spelll .. and no, it doesn't void your post ...

(sometimes this cynical old cunt just wants to BATTER fuckwits ... I know that won't teach them anything ... but it would certainly make me feel better ..)

And yes .. altrusim would be BRILLIANT .. sorry to say this cynical old cunt thinks NEVER HAPPEN ...

[mashman]

Yash .. naa bro .. because all "work" is not equal in time it takes . ad materials needed ... If I spend one hour fixing a bike for a mate do I accept one hour's work in exchange or do I demand two hours work ??? Two hours of what it would take me to do a job or two hours of what it migfht take my mate (who is highly qualified and experienced in the job I want in exchange)

Dood, Time banking is still a valuation imho and whilst a great concept, still open to rort and still highly questionable, as you highlight, in regards to quantifying the effort. Some work is more manually intensive, some is more mental intensive, some requires a higher degree of skill, some can be done by a machine (probably get machines to do that work), some if a halfway house between skill, braun and brains, okay a third way house. Tying ourselves up in knots over who's output is more important is kinda silly given that all output is important. If he's doing his job without being paid (coz there's no cash), then he probably enjoys it and accepts the hours that come with it.



I like the idea .. Have you read Ursula's Le Guin's The Dispossessed? But human nature is against you, I am sorry to say .. much as I would like it to be otherwise ..

I'm a painfully slow reader and tend to shy away from having to do so. FINALLY we get to the crux and here's an answer I prepared earlier :D... human nature is bullshit. Yes we display certain traits and we call it human nature. Yet me being a human being, I'm pretty sure I am, I have gone from plodding through life capitalist to wanting NOW, as have many others. Human nature is a decision that we take given the circumstances presented and there is no guarantee that we will react in a prescribed way, hence someone doing something out of character. So I'm calling bullshit in regards to human nature. Of the people I have offered the alternative to so far, the majority have said that they would accept that alternative. yes it takes a little convincing, primarily as people don't know what they don't know. You offer the alternative, they make a "reasoned" choice. In that respect your "human nature" hasn't been tested yet. Once upon a time the majority of human beings embraced slavery, deplored homosexuality, worked to a gold standard, discovered electricity, created a social welfare system etc... human nature? or making a decision based on the need for something to change?



Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. (See the sentences a coupel of centimetres above - huiman nature ... )

:killingme I understand that and have gleaned such from your posts... and to a huge degree I agree... and to a huge degree realise that I'm in the stupid zone, but this is easy enough for everyone to understand should they be allowed to hear it. It won't stop people from being stupid I'm afraid, but it'll allow them the opportunity to be less so.



There's a big difference between the rules I live by and what I say here and what I see happening around me .. I'll still be a cycnical old cunt ....

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[oldrider]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what could be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! :mellow: Err pass me that swat. :shifty: Time to swat a few (tricky) flies! :bash:

[mashman]

I still believe that until you get the general populace into altruism, any system is going to have problems.

It's not the monetary system or otherwise that is the issue, but people's greed for wealth and power. Currently wealth is measured by the dollar, but whatever you replace it with, people will still seek to dominate and rise above their fellow.

That may well be the case. Although one could argue that you need the "promise" of a system in order to eek out the altruistic behaviour in those who usually wouldn't. Coz in the meantime, they have to work and every cent counts. There's also a huge chunk of the populace that don't really give a shit as long as they're taken care of. I am wholly happy with that as that is a side effect of an RBE. You are looked after irrespective and anything else is gravy.

You're describing a minority there Ed. This is why people queue. This is why we have a country where 55% (reportedly) of the population are a drag on the economy etc... Given the right circumstances a different set of predominant behaviours will rise. It's an easy experiment to undertake and one that young kids live until they know differently. A changed world in a generation? You betcha. In regards to power etc... sure there'll be those who want to exert influence etc... but it'll be by far harder a thing to achieve where there is no money. My employer has power over me because they pay me money. People go to war because they get paid to do so. People lie and cheat and thieve and murder and divorce and have kids etc... because of money. Without that control mechanism (which is exactly what it is and not in an oh it's an exchange mechanism way) the rules of society can change so that the majority can actually rule for the sake of the majority.

[mashman]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what COULDN'T be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! :mellow: Err pass me that swat. :shifty: Time to swat a few (tricky) flies! :bash:

Bang the fuck on John!

True. And for those times where we all agree, there's budget constraint.

Absolutely, which is why I try to be careful with the ideas I put up, because there are some viable "ideas" that could be used in the current environment that wouldn't be of benefit (to the people) under the current system.

:killingme... oh how I wish.

[scissorhands]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what could be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! :mellow: Err pass me that swat. :shifty: Time to swat a few (tricky) flies! :bash:

thou speakest wisely, Oldy

Strong good leadership is all we really need and want.
Instead we waste our time bickering.
The spirit in NZ is weak
From double dealing dishonest leaders
we have an insecure people
Much like a child watching his parents argue over nothing
But in an individual who remains aloof of the bickering
such as thou
Tis as strong as ever

[Banditbandit]

FINALLY we get to the crux and here's an answer I prepared earlier :D... human nature is bullshit. Yes we display certain traits and we call it human nature. Yet me being a human being, I'm pretty sure I am, I have gone from plodding through life capitalist to wanting NOW, as have many others. Human nature is a decision that we take given the circumstances presented and there is no guarantee that we will react in a prescribed way, hence someone doing something out of character. So I'm calling bullshit in regards to human nature. Of the people I have offered the alternative to so far, the majority have said that they would accept that alternative. yes it takes a little convincing, primarily as people don't know what they don't know. You offer the alternative, they make a "reasoned" choice. In that respect your "human nature" hasn't been tested yet. Once upon a time the majority of human beings embraced slavery, deplored homosexuality, worked to a gold standard, discovered electricity, created a social welfare system etc... human nature? or making a decision based on the need for something to change?



I'm reminded of an interview I saw about 15 years ago of two Russian businessmen who were born after the October Revolution and grew up in Soviet Russia. They had bought state industries during the privatisation period ...

Both were asked about their workforce and both said that their work force was a lazy bunch of useless "people" (they used a very impolite word) .. one of them said "You have to beat the workers to get them to do anything".

I was shocked at the time .. that two people who had NOT grown up under a Capitalists system, with all it's inherent hegemonic processes, had that attitude towards the workforce ... 70 years of a Soviet state and the worst employer attitude resurfaces in an instant !!!

So .. I do like your ideas ... but I think that humans carry a very strong self-preservation gene (as do all life forms) which includes a competative element ... (watch a pack of animals competing wth other packs for territory) and with some intelligence aded, self-preservation and competativeness very very easily becomes self-interest ...

BUT I am not really as cynical as my communications make out (and yes, I do express cynical views outside this forum) .. I do have faith in the future - I have always actively tried to change the world .. firstly it was an active involvement in radical politics (Doh .. that's a very slow change process and very frustrating) and now work in education .. because every year I get new students whose lives I can directly impact on ... hopefully they will go out and create a better future ...

But hey .. I'm amused by the cynical old cunt stance I've adopted/become ... so that's unlikely to change

[scumdog]

Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. .

What he said!:niceone:

And not just on KB.

[mashman]

I'm reminded of an interview I saw about 15 years ago of two Russian businessmen who were born after the October Revolution and grew up in Soviet Russia. They had bought state industries during the privatisation period ...

Both were asked about their workforce and both said that their work force was a lazy bunch of useless "people" (they used a very impolite word) .. one of them said "You have to beat the workers to get them to do anything".

I was shocked at the time .. that two people who had NOT grown up under a Capitalists system, with all it's inherent hegemonic processes, had that attitude towards the workforce ... 70 years of a Soviet state and the worst employer attitude resurfaces in an instant !!!

So .. I do like your ideas ... but I think that humans carry a very strong self-preservation gene (as do all life forms) which includes a competative element ... (watch a pack of animals competing wth other packs for territory) and with some intelligence aded, self-preservation and competativeness very very easily becomes self-interest ...

BUT I am not really as cynical as my communications make out (and yes, I do express cynical views outside this forum) .. I do have faith in the future - I have always actively tried to change the world .. firstly it was an active involvement in radical politics (Doh .. that's a very slow change process and very frustrating) and now work in education .. because every year I get new students whose lives I can directly impact on ... hopefully they will go out and create a better future ...

But hey .. I'm amused by the cynical old cunt stance I've adopted/become ... so that's unlikely to change

Socialism, capitalism, communism etc... are essentially all the same to me. Yes that sounds silly, but in regards to the function they were supposed to fulfil i.e. look after them pesky hoomans, they all used money as an incentive for an "easier" way to survive. Sure the political model may have been different, but essentially that doesn't really matter. Irrespective of governance structure, the each country has encountered the same economic issues. They all basically work in the same way.

You have a constant (money) in amongst a raft of societal, governmental, economic variables that have changed in the last several thousand years and yet they have all collapsed in on themselves in one way or another. Tis quite amusing that we're still defending the very thing that leads to the collapse of country's and their society's. No money = economic and societal turmoil.

So in the case of your rusky chums, I'd say that they were living in a capitalistic society, after all, they bought to own their factory. Following that and given that people will do anything for money, I'm not surprised that that behaviour reared its ugly head. However I reckon the story would have been extremely different in a financial less RBE. After all, if your employer was beating you and you could get shit for free, would you work for them? Yes I realise that that is a double edged sword... currently plenty of people don't work for that reason, but by far a majority do along with suffering shit employers. I know I do sometimes and I'm pretty sure you enjoy teaching. Competition will still exist... although instead of being competitive in the marketplace, goods/service/products etc... will go head to head using minimal resources and the winner (coz it's the best) will go into production. And just to make sure the competition stays fresh, ever piece of research, every single finding, every single breakthrough will be periodically shared amongst the competitors. Why the fuck would anyone want 10 similar items to choose from when 1 will do the job of all of them? These are just ideas. Not set in stone. And not truly mine, as I stand on the shoulders of giants and get to see a little further than they do, then someone gets to stand on my shoulders etc... preferably not shitting on me at any point in time whilst they're there. Eminently doable. All it takes is a quick conversation and a decision. Then leave the rest to those who will design each of the components for presentation to the people for a vote. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Nothing wrong with being cynical as it helps to stop people from swallowing any old shit.

[SPman]

They can't even get the science right so what chance is there that they can get the political and financial aspects right?

They claim that the CO2 concentration has topped 400 ppm for the first time ever, so they obviously read the initial press release but ignored the follow up. http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-carbon-dioxide-400-20130513,0,7196126.story
399.89 - close but no cigar. The overall reading is still around 398.35 - not expected to get to 400 until a bit later.....

[oldrider]

But hey .. I'm amused by the cynical old cunt stance I've adopted/become ... so that's unlikely to change

True, it is so hard to avoid probably because we know something is wrong and we feel we can see the right answer but there is just so much shit to sort through! :confused:

Same sort of behaviour as a drunk defending their bottle, they need it least but will lay down their life to protect their right to have it! :brick:

Maybe cynicism grows proportionately with age and experience. :violin: