The Vote, 22 May, TV3, 8.30-9.30pm

[scissorhands]

Should soft drugs be legalised? Pretty good panel of ex-spurts, Duncan Garner might roll-up again...



http://cdn.3news.co.nz/3news/AM/2013/5/15/297905/vote_v1.jpg?width=620

This Month's Debate: Should soft drugs be decriminalised?

Drug use has become a hot topic in recent weeks as communities from Timaru to Manurewa have picketed sellers of legal highs, synthetic products have been banned by government and select committee hearings into a new drugs law have been taking place. Police and medics have warned in recent days that harm caused by synthetics is demanding more of their attention. But around the world the trend is to more liberal drug laws, treating drugs as a health issue rather than a criminal one. This month Colorado and Vermont have become the latest US states to liberalise their drug laws.

So which way should New Zealand go?

This month on The Vote we debate whether New Zealand should decriminalise soft drugs. And by “soft drugs” we mean cannabis and synthetic cannabis. Meet the teams below, then watch the arguments for an against on Wednesday May 22. You vote, you decide....

http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/TheVote/Home.aspx

[Hitcher]

In reality there's a discussion that needs to be had before this one. That discussion is about what behaviours generally need to be legislated for -- where the lines in the sand are drawn, and whose role it is to enforce those.

Mind-altering drugs and whether they should be available is only one issue in play here. More importantly is our society that expects others to take care of its issues. That society is doomed unless citizens step up and determine what behaviours in society are acceptable and those that aren't, and then which ones they should take control of and which ones should be left to appointed enforcement agents.

[scissorhands]

Legality of populist substances and legislation of behaviours.
I dont quite get your point?

Alcohol [can] creates poor public/private behaviours.... I'm confused as to what your driving at

[Akzle]

vote for whatever the fuck you like. i'll be too busy taking drugs.

[Akzle]

PS.
that cone is fucking full of seeds. that shit would be like trying to smoke popcorn.

[imdying]

PS.
that cone is fucking full of seeds. that shit would be like trying to smoke popcorn.

Totally man... the only thing they should ban is poor quality dope like that.

Really they should be looking at banning booze... but too many MPs and people that have MPs in their pocket also have shares in booze making operations (hotels/pubs, breweries, wineries) so that will never happen. Given that, sure, legalize that shit... might as well tax the crap out of it, it's being sold regardless.

[scumdog]

Really they should be looking at banning booze...

I'm with you on that one!

[Hitcher]

Legality of populist substances and legislation of behaviours.
I dont quite get your point?

Alcohol [can] creates poor public/private behaviours.... I'm confused as to what your driving at

Acceptable behaviours and the management of those surely need to be resolved first? Once the community has come to terms with that, then it's better equipped to have a discussion about practices that may affect what they have have already agreed to be acceptable. That's not just the use of mind-altering substances and the costs associated with that, its also management and regulation of the supply chain and the cost associated with that.

[imdying]

I'm with you on that one!It would be like guns though... abusers will still get hold of them; black market price will go up of course.

[scumdog]

It would be like guns though... abusers will still get hold of them; black market price will go up of course.

Sorta like recreational drugs at the moment??

[mashman]

In reality there's a discussion that needs to be had before this one. That discussion is about what behaviours generally need to be legislated for -- where the lines in the sand are drawn, and whose role it is to enforce those.

Mind-altering drugs and whether they should be available is only one issue in play here. More importantly is our society that expects others to take care of its issues. That society is doomed unless citizens step up and determine what behaviours in society are acceptable and those that aren't, and then which ones they should take control of and which ones should be left to appointed enforcement agents.

All behaviours are acceptable where they do not cause physical or mental harm to another person. Having said that, legislation being so open to interpretation then becomes an issue when defining physical or mental harm. It matters not what we ask for, as what can be proven in a court of law is all that matters. And who are society to say, we disapprove of smoking and fatty foods and we are the majority, so you should do as we tell you?

Essentially much better to have a free for all and let the courts do their thing if/when someone is caught?

[imdying]

Sorta like recreational drugs at the moment??AFAIK the black market price for drugs hasn't moved in 20 years. Recession proof as it were.

[scumdog]

AFAIK the black market price for drugs hasn't moved in 20 years. Recession proof as it were.

Hmm, maybe K2 and similar shit is muscling in on the cannabis demand/prices??

[imdying]

Hmm, maybe K2 and similar shit is muscling in on the cannabis demand/prices??AFAIK no synthetic products, including synthetic cannabaonids, the abundance of meth, and E or speed before that, or acid before that, has made absolutely no difference to the price of black market cannabis in New Zealand. I'm not a drug dealer, so I couldn't offer an opinion on demand... having said that, AFAIK the vast majority aren't interested in making vast sums of money and only supply their personal network, who aren't 12, and aren't interested in man made chemicals.

I expect your interaction with the market is vastly different though... young adults, unfortunately, do not have access to such suppliers and are thus forced into purchasing poor quality/size product from places like gangs who run tinny houses with no other expectation than to make vast sums of money. As always things like prohibition always hit the most vulnerable areas of society first.

Maybe young adults shouldn't be getting high, but they most definitely will, so why hand them to gangs on a plate?

[scumdog]

.

Maybe young adults shouldn't be getting high, but they most definitely will, so why hand them to gangs on a plate?

Young ones here love K2 etc "cos it's legal and you can buy it anywhere and the cops don't hassle you for having it".

(And they also find it easier to get than booze when underaged)

And it has dropped their consumption of cannabis...

[Katman]

Acceptable behaviours and the management of those surely need to be resolved first? Once the community has come to terms with that, then it's better equipped to have a discussion about practices that may affect what they have have already agreed to be acceptable.

I don't think Cannabis is responsible for very much anti-social behaviour at all. (Synthetic cannabis may well be a different story).

There is far more anti-social behaviour linked to alcohol, cars, motorcycles, inept parenting etc.

I still believe though that if Cannabis was legalised then the market for the currently legal alternatives would virtually dry up overnight.

[imdying]

Young ones here love K2 etc "cos it's legal and you can buy it anywhere and the cops don't hassle you for having it".

(And they also find it easier to get than booze when underaged)

And it has dropped their consumption of cannabis...Which is a bit of a worry... cannabis might not be flavour of the month, but like booze we do have thousands of years (sorry Christians, I meant hundreds) of experience with it.

[willytheekid]

Cracks me up how they lump Weed and that man made chemical crap together :laugh:

Its like comparing spring water to coca cola and saying that the additives are killing you! :weird:...typical Govt/media bullshit! (a vote!...pffft, just like a vote for Gov't!...dosn't matter which way ya lean, they just wanna screw and control you all in the end!)

Want to make a REAL differnce to the country?...Ban the fake shit and crack down on Booze!! (Spent 14yrs running bars all over NZ...and I have NEVER!! seen a violent or dangerous dope head!(But they do tend to nod off if not stimulated:laugh:)....where as piss heads!, party pill poppers! and users of this fake shit!...:crazy: rolled around on the floor with FAR! to many of those angry fuckers! <_<)

And JUST like when they lowered the drinking age...why would they actually listen to reason, common sence? or the people of NZ??...when they know best!
We are just morons who should pay there taxes, shut the fuck up!, and let these geniuses make yet another call that will see them profit and us pay for it!

...a vote!!...pffft :tugger: what ever! (You really need to wake the fuck up NZ)

[scumdog]

Cracks me up how they lump Weed and that man made chemical crap together :laugh:

Its like comparing spring water to coca cola and saying that the additives are killing you! :weird:...typical Govt/media bullshit! (a vote!...pffft, just like a vote for Gov't!...dosn't matter which way ya lean, they just wanna screw and control you all in the end!)



I think it's the media pushing the name 'synthetic cannabis Willy - but I do agree with you sentiment in the comparison - there's nothing 'cannabis' about this K2 (and similar) crap.

[MIXONE]

I think it's the media pushing the name 'synthetic cannabis Willy - but I do agree with you sentiment in the comparison - there's nothing 'cannabis' about this K2 (and similar) crap.

I,too, hate the name "synthetic cannabis".Should be "synthetic shit"!

[imdying]

...a vote!!...pffft :tugger: what ever! (You really need to wake the fuck up NZ)Just need to burn down the Reichstag and not fuck it up this time.

[scissorhands]

Its all very close at hand me thinks. Under 3 years?
Maybe the Nats will rush legalisation legislation thru before the election to garner votes??

What about a KB competition to see who will predict the year and month drug laws in NZ will change?

[gwigs]

Just need to burn down the Reichstag and not fuck it up this time.

It was the Communists.....

[Road kill]

Shall mull up an watch,,not expecting much though.

Apart for getting smashed that is :laugh:

[scissorhands]

I think it's the media pushing the name 'synthetic cannabis Willy - but I do agree with you sentiment in the comparison - there's nothing 'cannabis' about this K2 (and similar) crap.

actually I went thru a bit of that crap last year
the effects are very similar to cannabis while using
daily use and the after effects of heavy use are the real problem

occasional/minimal use of synthetic weed is not an issue from my experience:niceone:

chips and dip and a glass of red wine for me tonight...

[scissorhands]

Garner and his team seemed quite overweight apart from Janie who was an emotional hysterical sensationalist?

Ban it! ban it! Ban it!!!

[mashman]

Garner and his team seemed quite overweight apart from Janie who was an emotional hysterical sensationalist?

Ban it! ban it! Ban it!!!

The "industry expert" opinion was amusing. Is natural cannabis safer than synthetic cannabis. Yes.

[Katman]

The "industry expert" opinion was amusing. Is natural cannabis safer than synthetic cannabis. Yes.

Duncan Garner's attempt to get the guy out of it showed Duncan Garner up for the twat he is.

Imagining that tonights debate should be reduced to a giggling session of "oh wow man" was a ludicrous move.

[mashman]

Duncan Garner's attempt to get the guy out of it showed Duncan Garner up for the twat he is.

Imagining that tonights debate should be reduced to a giggling session of "oh wow man" was a ludicrous move.

I've no opinion of the guy.

Not likely. Good on the industry guy for turning him down, just a shame he never got to get his point across that he should be allowed to choose time and place for his consumption.

[scissorhands]

Duncan Garner's attempt to get the guy out of it showed Duncan Garner up for the twat he is.



Many times it seemed the no team were asking loaded questions, offering incorrect sensationalism, being legalistic like courtroom lawyers, especially Garner. I didnt have an opinion of the guy either till tonight. Twat

Agree with Wayne getting the plate prize though, seemed a solid good guy

[ducatilover]

I,too, hate the name "synthetic cannabis".Should be "synthetic shit"! You're dead right there. But, synthetic cannabis is the marketing term, it just happens to make cannabis sound worse to the people with no minds. And the media love that kind of word play


Many times it seemed the no team were asking loaded questions, offering incorrect sensationalism, being legalistic like courtroom lawyers, especially Garner. I didnt have an opinion of the guy either till tonight. Twat

Agree with Wayne getting the plate prize though, seemed a solid good guy

I don't think either of the sides could be taken too seriously, it seemed to be more about good TV than a rational argument, both sides launched in to immature rants. This is a common thing that happens on KB, this is due to somebody not knowing enough about what they're supporting, or why they support it (take Holden V Ford fans for example), this leads to the rapid rambling and confrontational/stand-over styles they'll use.
Then you'll get somebody avoiding questions with a snide, smug look on their face (general public don't seem to notice these people, annoyingly) who is in the same boat as the previously mentioned twits, but has a different way of achieving dominance, exerting arrogance.

So, I think some very interesting questions and some great information was on the show, but the show is too entertainment based and dumbed down.

When I debated (I debate all the time...) in College and Uni there was no childish twattery and arguing like such politicians and fucktards, you'd get kicked out for being such a diddle. No decorum, chaps.

[Berries]

Have been baling water all night so missed that and would have watched it. Always good to see people with no experience of something trying to offer up their opinion. The solution, I would have thought, is very simple.

Anyway, these K2 twats. Judging by all the ones I have seen they would have fucked themselves up on glue or gas anyway. No great loss. Just a shame they keep calling it synthetic cannabis when it is nothing of the sort.

[scissorhands]

The effects when smoking are very similar, syn does actually contain canabinoids

Someone who is going for a drug test and has to quit the real stuff, the syn does feel very similar

I did a few packets last year so direct personal experience.

The problem is syn should never ever Trevor be used daily or heavily.

That is when the psychosis and kidney damage happens

However, its mostly reversible from all accounts of hospitalised users.

Most recovering alcoholics, junkies and crack heads do recover in body and mind....98% anyhows

'public awareness of syn needs to be focused on excessive use'

the problem is real cannabis users are not aware of syn long term or heavy usage problems, as real cannabis is very safe even in ridiculously large amounts

[scissorhands]

Have been baling water all night so missed that and would have watched it. Always good to see people with no experience of something trying to offer up their opinion.

uuumm yeah, hate that
heres the run down of last night for ya according to
http://whoar.co.nz/

comment:..for fuck sake..!..the drug-debate on tv3..
Posted on 22/5/2013 by admin

ed:..first question/fuck-up of this show..

..why not just talk about marijuana..?..why mix legals up with it..?

..next question:..the ex-drug-cop sabin tells a pile of gigantic lies..why the fuck didb’t espiner call him on that..?..but no..guyon had his prepared question..eh guyon..?..unable to think on yr feet..eh..?..(literally)..

..first lie from sabin:..that marijuana is now 30 times more strong than it was 30 yrs ago..

..now..this is a pile of stinking/lying bullshit..(and is designed to panic parents of today who may have puffed back then..)..and what is the proof of that lie..?

..court records…that’s right..fucken court records..’cos y’see..each drug trial has tests of the potency of the evidence..and both here and in america..those court records show minimal changes in potency from then to now..

..(and anecdotaly i will back that up..the good pot now is no stronger than the good pot then..)

..big lie 2:..the ex-drug-cop then claims that cannabis is more dangerous than alcohol..(and i’m not even going to bother to argue that..anyone with half a brain knows that alcohol is our big killer..)

..big lie 3..ex-drug-cop claims that decriminalisation in portugal has led to a massive increase in drug-use..this is another absolute fucken lie..

..then a sth island small-town mayor gets all hysterical..and when called on her wild-claims..admits she has no evidence..

..a pyschiatrist notes that in six yrs..he has had one patient present with cannabis issues..

..the spokesman for the legal pot industry mounts a fierce/potent argument for the legalisation of pot..

..noting that not one person..ever..anywhere..has died from pot..

..some councillor from somewhere claims that cannabis is a gateway-drug..and spouts even more hysterical bullshit that the small-town mayor..

..which brings us to duncan garner..who is a total one trick pony..who only focuses on the legal highs..and who endlessly harangues/bullies the pro-team..and is a fucken country-mile away from being any sort of anything..really..just a loud/irrational bully..that is his one-trick..

..at the halfway mark..all we have had is hysteria about legal highs (80%)..and outright big-lies from the ex-drug-cop..and irrational hysteria from the small-town mayor and councillor..

..garner then goes for a prop-stunt..pulling out a legal high joint..and demanding the spokeperson for the industry smoke it there and then..

..garner then harangues/bullies..with his prop..and gets demolished by his victim..who points out to garner that if that is the best he has got..that he has lost the argument..

..the ex-cop/mp(who knew?) tells another bunch of hysterical-lies..

..garner then further muddles the two separate issues by asking a super-loaded question of the studio audience..namely:..would they want their 18 yr old daughter using cannabis and the legal highs..(it’s two different fucken questions..!..duncan..! ..and my answer would be ok for cannabis..but a warning to stay away from the legals..mainly because we don’t know what’s in them..)

..and as an aside..tho’ i think the legals are total crap..and should be all banned..(at the same time i want to see the legalisation/regulation/taxation of cannabis..)..i am puzzled by the likes of this small-town mayor..and the councillor..who are ranting and raving about the legal highs..and who i bet don’t say boo! about the booze-pushers in their community..doing far far more harm than all other drugs added together..their hypocrisies/double-standards are eye-watering..

..and funny/ironic story about garner being so anti-cannabis..just the other day i carried a news-report about cannabis being shown to help prevent diabetes..(something to do with insulin-levels..info in whoar-searchengine..)

..and given garners diet/body-shape/drug-choice/age..that anti-pot stance should be reconsidered by him..if only on those grounds..

..”put down that beer..!..duncan..!..here..!..have a joint instead..!..”

(we are next promised that matt bowden..and peter dunne..together..and when you think about it..they are remarkably similar in so many ways..eh..?

..starting with the (affected)-hair..and moving on down..their waffle/bullshit is almost indistinguishable)..in some ways..both leaving you uncomfortable..knowing you’ve been bullshitted..a verbal-version of checking yr fingers/rings after shaking hands..

..the final vote was 72% in favour of decriminalisation..28% for prohibition..

..which is a resounding result..

..dunne then peddles furiously against the 72% result..and says the govt has no intention of decriminalising cannabis..

..dunne then finishes with a big-lie..claiming there has always been that level of support for decriminalising cannabis..

..you absolute/utter fucken liar..!..dunne..!

..so this whole exercise started with big lies from the ex-drug-cop-nat mp..

..and finished with a whopper from dunne..

..and tho’ a dogs-breakfast of an affair..i am cheered by that final result..

..that calling for some sanity in our drug laws..

..and i’ll tell you one thing..dunnes protestations/furious spinning to one side..politicians from all parties will now be very aware of the will of the people on this issue..

..and they are rat-cunning enough to know that they will ignore/argue against that imperative at their peril..

..and that is very very good news..

..so..an ups to tv3…for dragging the issue from the shadows..

update:..and the (surprise) star of the event..was the spokesperson for the legal-high industry..not for what he said about them..but for the potency/logic of his arguments for ending prohibition on cannabis..and pointing out that if cannabis were legal..that we would have no legal-highs issue..citing those states in america that have decriminalised..and noting that they have no issue/problems with legal-highs..

..i have looked askance at that person ’till now..but his honesty on the lack of safety with the legals..and his arguments for ending cannabis-prohibition..have tempered that attitude somewhat..

[scumdog]

I noticed the K2 man rabbitted on about how nobody had died from using his shit and he had 'checked' with A&E on this.

But he quietly did not mention how many kids had fucked themselves up with his crap.

Or check with holding cells to see how many had to be held there due to their violenct/irrational behaviour, I was surprised nobody 'called' him on that...

[Banditbandit]

I missed almost al of the programme .. could not be bothered wasting my time listening to all that shit ...

I caught the last few minutes and I was blown away by the results of the poll ... sure it was not especially accurate ... but I expected a law change to possibly be ahead by a small margin ... not the whooping big margin it came in by ...

Thats hard to ignore .. and indicates that the majority of people in Godzone want a law change ..

[scissorhands]

TV polls have been around 70/30 and 80/20 for quite a few years now.

Just got back from breaky downtown orks, overheard 4 conversations about the show last night
'.....Politicians ignore at their own peril....'

[scissorhands]

I noticed the K2 man rabbitted on about how nobody had died from using his shit and he had 'checked' with A&E on this.

But he quietly did not mention how many kids had fucked themselves up with his crap.

Or check with holding cells to see how many had to be held there due to their violenct/irrational behaviour, I was surprised nobody 'called' him on that...

Totally agree.

A lot of hyperventilating aggression last night [thanks to Garner] meant that the truth was hard to find, as usual

I like Ross Bell but after Garner confounded him with courtroom aggression tactics in the first 5mins, Ross withdrew from combative argument.

he got the aspie sensibilities and thoughtfulness.

Its crazy that after all this National discussion....
the real time dangers of excessive use [of synthetics] are still not clearly highlighted for the wider NZ public

Same old, same old scaremongering and no real education:no:

operation moderation

[Edbear]

I missed almost al of the programme .. could not be bothered wasting my time listening to all that shit ...

I augfht the last few minutes and I was blown away by the results of the poll ... sure it was not especially accurate ... but I expected a law change to possibly be ahead by a small margin ... not the whooping big margin it came in by ...

Thats hard to ignore .. and indicates that the majority of people in Godzone want a law change ..

I didn't bother watching it either, I've seen enough of these shows to know it was pretty much going to be as described above.

All those egos vying for sound bites, you knew in advance nothing rational would come out of it. :sleep:

[scissorhands]

All those egos vying for sound bites, you knew in advance nothing rational would come out of it. :sleep:

classic:laugh: gotta laugh eh

[Katman]

I didn't bother watching it either, I've seen enough of these shows to know it was pretty much going to be as described above.

All those egos vying for sound bites, you knew in advance nothing rational would come out of it. :sleep:

So you're speaking from a position of total ignorance then, are you Ed?

[White trash]

Fucken pot smoking hippies........

[scumdog]

Fucken pot smoking hippies........

Welcome back - could you please be a bit more forthright James?:shifty:

[Edbear]

So you're speaking from a position of total ignorance then, are you Ed?

I'm happy to accept scissorhands, scumdog's and bandit's reviews on it. They match what I expected.

[scissorhands]

were you playing hide the sausage?

[bogan]

I'm happy to accept scissorhands, scumdog's and bandit's reviews on it. They match what I expected.

:lol: And as usual Ed will accept anything that matches what he expects, and nothing that doesn't.

The mayor was fucking useless and did more harm than good to their cause, the rest all seemed to make decent points. But the decriminalisation side seemed to make a lot more points that made sense, and not have to try as hard to find them either.

[White trash]

Fucken pot smoking hippies, I fucken hate 'em.

[Edbear]

:lol: And as usual Ed will accept anything that matches what he expects, and nothing that doesn't.

The mayor was fucking useless and did more harm than good to their cause, the rest all seemed to make decent points. But the decriminalisation side seemed to make a lot more points that made sense, and not have to try as hard to find them either.

You lot are so predictable you're no fun at all. :sleep:

Trouble is you think you're so clever at it... :weird:

[bogan]

You lot are so predictable you're no fun at all. :sleep:

Trouble is you think you're so clever at it... :weird:

I know right, anytime you see 'us lot' posting, you can predict there will be substance behind our posts, really makes it less fun for uninformed trolls like yourself eh Ed.

[Katman]

All those egos vying for sound bites, you knew in advance nothing rational would come out of it.

I think getting the point across that Cannabis and synthetic Cannabis are two totally different products was an extremely important fact to bring to the debate.

I also think that getting across the point that it is the prohibition of Cannabis that has created a market for synthetic Cannabis was extremely important.

To suggest that nothing rational came from the programme is simply displaying your blind prejudice.

[imdying]

To suggest that nothing rational came from the programme is simply displaying your blind prejudice.He has abdicated thinking away to an imaginary friend, just what were you expecting from him? Insight? Intelligence? Some sort of critical thinking? Really!?!? FFS he believes in a mystery god, blind doesn't even begin to describe how fucked in the head he is.

[Madness]

So you're speaking from a position of total ignorance then, are you Ed?

He's researched the subject extensively so, yes, you're correct.

[Swoop]

Legalised gay marriage. If they then legalise weed, then what point will there be in the "legalise marijuana party" and the lunatic fringe party (greens) staying in politics?

Hmmm... A shrewd political move by an incumbent gubbinment to get rid of some competition?

[ducatilover]

I know right, anytime you see 'us lot' posting, you can predict there will be substance behind our posts, really makes it less fun for uninformed trolls like yourself eh Ed.

Don't be ridiculous, this is KB, we come here to throw poo.


How much is the synthetic crap compared to MaoriJewana? I've never looked at the stuff myself I'm high on life, Jesus, fruit and shit.

[scissorhands]

Legalised gay marriage. If they then legalise weed, then what point will there be in the "legalise marijuana party" and the lunatic fringe party (greens) staying in politics?

Hmmm... A shrewd political move by an incumbent gubbinment to get rid of some competition?

Its prolly the only way they will get another term

[scissorhands]

How much is the synthetic crap compared to MaoriJewana?

About half price now. The effects are stronger, but they wear off quicker, and you need to top up more, so about the same for smaller amounts

If you buy real weed by the ounce, real weed works out cheaper

[Swoop]

Its prolly the only way they will get another term
Not too sure of that.
There certainly isn't a viable opposition/alternative at the moment.

[scumdog]

About half price now. The effects are stronger, but they wear off quicker, and you need to top up more, so about the same for smaller amounts


Good for business eh...<_<

[scissorhands]

Good for business eh...<_<


I think its works like: the body isnt fussed about rejecting or metabolising real cannabis, due its non toxic nature. Thats why it stays in the system so long, the bodies defences dont panic and let it be

Same with opiates, as both drugs mimic naturally occuring substances in the human body

could be very wrong though

[MisterD]

To suggest that nothing rational came from the programme is simply displaying your blind prejudice.

Oh I dunno, that someone thought it worthwhile quoting Phil Ure from Whoar, suggests that rationality is over the hill and moving quickly into the distance...

[scissorhands]

Oh I dunno, that someone thought it worthwhile quoting Phil Ure from Whoar, suggests that rationality is over the hill and moving quickly into the distance...

Is he a homo like 98% of engine reconditioners who dont make engines faster?:msn-wink: