Buckets fuel rule

[kel]

This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations - actually this one is incorrect and should read; This stuff can be bought at North Island petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.



Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right. :devil2:

[crazy man]

This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.



Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right. :devil2:looks like rich has now won the gp lmao:eek:

[Yow Ling]

Avgas is a pump gas, available at the local Challenge and also at the track, but you seem a bit down on it.
Is this really just a crusade against Avgas or trying to include Ethanol blend fuels , with just a little dislike of Avgas ?

[kel]

Avgas is a pump gas, available at the local Challenge and also at the track, but you seem a bit down on it.
Is this really just a crusade against Avgas or trying to include Ethanol blend fuels , with just a little dislike of Avgas ?

I've done my dash with Avgas. After breathing in way too much exhaust fumes during dyno time plus with the amount I spill on myself, I think my lead levels are just about right. Plus Im tight. I want access to a cheaper, safer fuels that can still deliver reasonable power.

[Kickaha]

I've done my dash with Avgas. After breathing in way too much exhaust fumes during dyno time plus with the amount I spill on myself, I think my lead levels are just about right. Plus Im tight. I want access to a cheaper, safer fuels that can still deliver reasonable power.

As far as safe goes avgas doesnt even rate a mention when you're talking bike racing as there's a lot more things likely to fuck you up, for the amount used it's not that expensive and is readily available (at least in the South)

By all means get E85 approved but dont give avgas the arse while you're doing it

[Grumph]

E10 and E15 when it comes on stream. Yes.
E85 No.....

If you're going to legalise E85 you may as well go the whole hog and legalise Methanol.

Billy on the other thread remarked that there are a lot of things available at the pump which shouldn't be race fuels. Quite true.

So IMO specify that any pump fuel on which road tax is paid at the pump is usable PLUS Avgas....as while it is available at the pump down here, I understand it's nominally for marine use and road tax is not usually charged.

[TZ350]

I think the fuel rule in 24.2.5 should be deleted so we have the same fuel choices, like the real road racers do and I would welcome something cheaper than Av Gas.

[Yow Ling]

I think the fuel rule in 24.2.5 should be deleted so we have the same fuel choices, like the other road racers do and I would welcome something cheaper than Av Gas.

Sorry TZ, dont undersell Buckets

[TZ350]

Thanks ..... saved :sweatdrop I hope nobody else notices.

[Flettner]

I'm in , don't believe a word of it, E85 is good stuff. This will help air cooled engines no end ( twostrokes ). Although it's not cheaper as you you will burn it at approx twice the rate. Should be cheaper! I'm not sure of the cost of Gull pump E85? I mix my own at E90 with BP 98 octane petrol. My fuel costs approx 3 dollars a litre ( then burn at twice the rate ) yes a bit expensive! 350 single with cast iron sleeve, 16 to one comp, heavy squish and a tiroidal combustion chamber. No detonation even on a hard 40K open fast ride. Nice punch out of corners. It does seem to need about 5% extra fuel after 70 degrees engine temp, not sure why? The way the fuel vaporizes perhaps? I did run it in a carburetor engine for a while but this 5% problem made it hard to control ( with my setup ). Some plastics and rubbers don't like it, all common knowledge now and fiberglass ( tanks and reeds ) most certainly are out. Carbon reeds appear to be no problem. EFI systems, no problems, I had a pump split once, rattling around loose under the bike so I took it apart. Two years soaked in ethanol, It looked brand new. Bosch injectors are made for it.
Not saying no to Av Gas, just allow ethanol as well. Might be good for supercharged fourstrokes perhaps :shifty:
By the way since running ethanol I have had no piston problems, no melt downs, zero damage, the underside of the piston gets pretty dark! Same rod kit as I started with, I don't clean the engine with running petrol after ethanol, just turn it off and leave it in the corner of the shed until it's dragged out for it's next thrashing.

[husaberg]

E10 E15 sure.
Def a no to E85 though it would mean an unfair advantage to the air-cooled 2t 125's and far too many big block four strokes blow ups sorry.
The Lead free is a red hering as far as i am concerned

[ac3_snow]

Could someone please explain what E10 and E85 actually are? My petrol knowledge is limited to the fact that I can get 91 or 95/98 from the gas station or 'av' gas from Onehunga.

[CHOPPA]

Cant see MNZ sending samples away for testing for buckets

[Buddha#81]

I sorta missread the thread. I'm all for ex pump for cost and ease to obtain. We are lucky in chch to have challenge waimak, gaden city heli (with race licence) & ruapuna selling av gas. I just run BP 98.

[CHOPPA]

Pump gas in the NI is much better. Mobil 98 is E10 in wellington

[kel]

Could someone please explain what E10 and E85 actually are?
No. Don't let us tell you, look it up, research it, come to your own conclusion.

[F5 Dave]

As far as safe goes avgas doesnt even rate a mention when you're talking bike racing as there's a lot more things likely to fuck you up, for the amount used it's not that expensive and is readily available (at least in the South)

By all means get E85 approved but dont give avgas the arse while you're doing it
I'm with him on that

[husaberg]

This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.



Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right. :devil2:

Kel your poll is extremely biased. and is a misdirection of facts.
You are not correctly stating what people are voting for..........
You say pump fuels are cheaper........ but E85 much dearer than Avgas.
E85 is not available as you allude freely all over the country.
The toxicity of E85 is the same or likely worse than Avgas.
Biofuel does not mean it is more earth friendly. In fact quite the opposite
the FIM fuels you allude to are not bucket legal.

E85 offers an substantial performance enhancement to air-cooled two strokes.......over all other non alcohol fuels esp Avgas.
Due to the cooling effect, which is the reason they are allowed to run extra cc over an liquid cooled engine.

Four stroke will be able to run an substantially higher comp ratio than on Avgas the running costs will go up as the big ends and rods will not last long.
Then the track will be littered with there bowels... oil will be everywhere.......

its a Trojan horse..... a clever air cooled one at that. I expect it will allow an extra 4-5 hp at the same level of reliability the air cooled 125's enjoy now.
Substantially less reliability levels for the rest of the class legal bikes.

[kel]

Kel your poll is extremely biased. and is a misdirection of facts.
You are not correctly saying what people are voting for..........
You say pump fuels are cheaper........ but isn't E85 much dearer than Avgas.
E85 is not available all over the country.
The toxicity of E85 is the same or likely worse than Avgas.
Biofuel does not mean it is more earth friendly.
the FIM fuels you allude to are not bucket legal.


Husa. Your facts are lacking
Please explain how the poll title or reply/voting choices could be incorrect
according to Gull E10 is $2.29 and E85 $2.03ltr. Last time I bought Avgas it was over $4.20ltr
what do you base your toxicity on? E85 is less toxic than Avgas. If you can prove otherwise please do.
I don't remember mentioning earth friend. Its my health Im interested in. If I wanted to save the planet I wouldn't be spending my time racing buckets
FIM unleaded certainly is bucket legal. Go and read 10.17
I seem to remember my FXR was air/oil cooled, so why would any benefit only be for 2 strokes
By all means have your say but please stick to the facts

[speedpro]

There is a bit more to this and it requires some thought. Husa is onto something with the benefit it may afford to one engine type. I'm not too worried for any pump gas to be used. It's too late for me. I've already watercooled my next engine. I don't want to see 100 octane avgas ruled out though as it's my fuel of choice though I'm sure Wobbly could come up with something that would take advantage of the characteristics of an ethanol blend.

[husaberg]

Husa. Your facts are lacking
according to Gull E10 is $2.29 and E85 $2.03ltr. Last time I bought Avgas it was over $4.20ltr
what do you base your toxicity on? E85 is less toxic than Avgas. If you can prove otherwise please do.
I don't remember mentioning earth friend. Its my health Im interested in. If I wanted to save the planet I wouldn't be spending my time racing buckets
the FIM fuels definitely are legal. Go and read 10.17

Read the rules..............equivalent to Unleaded FIM Fuel Apendex E look up the characteristics.
its pump super unleaded... FIM leaded fuels were jungle juice about EQ to E85....

There is a huge difference between FIM fuel and Unleaded EQ FIM fuel.


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Re the heath benefits No i don't. You need to prove how much safer E85 is than Avgas......Because that is what you are trying to sell as a selling point of a rule change.
Gull claims no Health benefits don't you think that they would if there were any?
There claim all sort's of other stuff about how it good for the environment being made from Brazilian sugercane.
Brazilian i wonder what they chop down, or where they move there farming and arable crops to grow it)and all and dairy lactose. That could be used for other things.

Avgas is far more readily available here cheaper too.
Last time i looked not everyone lives in Auckland.

Factor in that you burn at least twice as much as well..........
factor in the shipping e85 to the south Island.....
Yes thats right show me the Gull stations in the south island
Your horse still neighs........giddy up:laugh:
ps i think your price for E85 is incorrect as well...


I'm in , don't believe a word of it, E85 is good stuff. This will help air cooled engines no end ( twostrokes ). Although it's not cheaper as you you will burn it at approx twice the rate. Should be cheaper! I'm not sure of the cost of Gull pump E85? I mix my own at E90 with BP 98 octane petrol. My fuel costs approx 3 dollars a litre ( then burn at twice the rate ) yes a bit expensive! 350 single with cast iron sleeve, 16 to one comp, heavy squish and a tiroidal combustion chamber. No detonation even on a hard 40K open fast ride. Nice punch out of corners. It does seem to need about 5% extra fuel after 70 degrees engine temp, not sure why? The way the fuel vaporizes perhaps? I did run it in a carburetor engine for a while but this 5% problem made it hard to control ( with my setup ). Some plastics and rubbers don't like it, all common knowledge now and fiberglass ( tanks and reeds ) most certainly are out. Carbon reeds appear to be no problem. EFI systems, no problems, I had a pump split once, rattling around loose under the bike so I took it apart. Two years soaked in ethanol, It looked brand new. Bosch injectors are made for it.
Not saying no to Av Gas, just allow ethanol as well. Might be good for supercharged fourstrokes perhaps :shifty:
By the way since running ethanol I have had no piston problems, no melt downs, zero damage, the underside of the piston gets pretty dark! Same rod kit as I started with, I don't clean the engine with running petrol after ethanol, just turn it off and leave it in the corner of the shed until it's dragged out for it's next thrashing.

[kel]

There is a huge difference between FIM fuel and Unleaded EQ FIM fuel.

Re the heath benefits No i don't. You need to prove how much safer E85 is than Avgas......Because that is what you are trying to sell as a selling point of a rule change.


Factor in that you burn at least twice as much as well..........

ps i think your price for E85 is incorrect as well...


So if you say FIM unleaded that's different to equivalent to FIM unleaded? Equivalent = Equal, as in value, force, or meaning
Tetraethyllead nasty poison in avgas that's not present in biofuel blends
According to net research you burn a third more fuel if you use E85 no more if you use E10, do the maths on cost.
Price is according to Gull.
Facts

[husaberg]

So if you say FIM unleaded that's different to equivalent to FIM unleaded? Equivalent = Equal, as in value, force, or meaning
Tetraethyllead nasty poison in avgas that's not present in biofuel blends
According to net research you burn a third more fuel if you use E85 no more if you use E10, do the maths on cost.
Price is according to Gull.
Facts

Read the rules..............equivalent to Unleaded FIM Fuel Apendex E look up the characteristics.
its pump super unleaded... FIM leaded fuels were jungle juice about EQ to E85....

There is a huge difference between FIM fuel and Unleaded EQ FIM fuel.



Re the heath benefits No i don't. You need to prove how much safer E85 is than Avgas......Because that is what you are trying to sell as a selling point of a rule change.
Gull claims no Health benefits don't you think that they would if there were any?
There claim all sort's of other stuff about how it good for the environment being made from Brazilian sugercane.
Brazilian i wonder what they chop down, or where they move there farming and arable crops to grow it)and all and dairy lactose. That could be used for other things.FACT

Avgas is far more readily available here cheaper too.
Last time i looked not everyone lives in Auckland.



Read it again. E85 is closer approx eq to the banned FIM Leaded.
But far better in cooling effects.
FIM Unleaded is a RON of 95-102 According to Gull E85 is greater than RON 110 FACT.

The rules allow an FIM EQ unleaded which (also quite toxic)FACT

Show me the price in the whole of NZ Kel? seeing as its so freely available.
Oh that's right gull 85 is not available in the south island. Avgas is......silly me......(You keep avoiding that one why it is in your spiel as a Fact)

Ethanol is also toxic poison so is the petrol making up the remainder. FACT

Your net research based on racing air cooled two strokes Kel?
Dig out your Bell Book and have a look...........

If you want a new fuel rule great. but don't try and sell it on stuff its not.........
Don't ban Avgas. Don't try and sell as rule change that advantages only Aucklanders running air cooled 125's...........
To the detriment of others.

[CHOPPA]

Check out the new fuel specs for the Superbike class, this is what you are looking for Kel......

Good luck policing it though

[FastFred]

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. -

Drop Buckets supplementary rule 24-2-5 so anyone can buy their fuel from the local petrol station.


Don't ban Avgas.....

Where exactly is Kel trying to ban Av Gas?


Don't try and sell a rule change that advantages only Aucklanders. To the detriment of others.

How does increased choice for all disadvantage others?

[Billy]

Check out the new fuel specs for the Superbike class, this is what you are looking for Kel......

Good luck policing it though

Yip,

Policing any fuel rule under our current system is expensive and time consuming,Kartsport just do from the digitron reading,No argument,Your disqualified right there and then...Now just got to find a steward with the balls to do it that knows how to fill out an infringement notice properly

[Flettner]

Yes all the above fuels are toxic but you can drink ethanol and after a nasty hangover you will live another day. Methanol is a different story, you WILL go blind and die and I imagine something similar will happen if you drink petrol.The emissions from burning ethanol are way less bad for "your" environment than either petrol or methanol. Ethanol is available everywhere in NZ by the 200 L drum, just blend your own brew from that! You could even brew your own if you like, I'm sure there would be one or two stills down the west coast. Minimal cost and imagine that not having to pay the big petrol companies so you can go racing!
All I'm saying is I have experience using this fuel and like it, don't believe the bad rap everyone seems to give it.

[husaberg]

Yes all the above fuels are toxic but you can drink ethanol and after a nasty hangover you will live another day. Methanol is a different story, you WILL go blind and die and I imagine something similar will happen if you drink petrol.The emissions from burning ethanol are way less bad for "your" environment than either petrol or methanol. Ethanol is available everywhere in NZ by the 200 L drum, just blend your own brew from that! You could even brew your own if you like, I'm sure there would be one or two stills down the west coast. Minimal cost and imagine that not having to pay the big petrol companies so you can go racing!
All I'm saying is I have experience using this fuel and like it, don't believe the bad rap everyone seems to give it.

Neil the emission from burning ethanol are not the only emissions the production of ethanol creates greater net environmental loss.
Same for all the biofuels and electric cars. If you brewed your own it would not be a commercially available pump fuel.
The relative toxicity is not in doubt i just object to Kel attempting to demonise Avgas's lead content in order to advance is cause.
As a whole unleaded petrol is as bad as leaded petrol . It was pushed away more for catalytic converters than any other reason.
the move to low lead and unleaded is one of the reasons also that fuel is more expensive to refine and the yields from crude are lower.

I am not all that worried either way about the environment (with the contribution buckets make)
i object to the justification and the pushing that it is available all around the country (which it is not)
plus the obvious inconsistencies of the performance in the different engines as i mentioned below.
The same reason you run it in your two stroke and see it as a potential benefit to a forced induction design is why i am against it use.


Drop Buckets supplementary rule 24-2-5 so anyone can buy their fuel from the local petrol station.

Anyone can't buy E85 its only available near Auckland.........


Where exactly is Kel trying to ban Av Gas?
What do you think will happen...why do you think the regs were altered to allow for Avgas in the first place.
originally it was pump fuel super max, (with alcohol allowed for NA 100cc 4 strokes f4)



How does increased choice for all disadvantage others?
You know the answer to that one your self as does Kel and Rob.
The 125 2 strokes when they were added to the rules had 2 restrictions.
The 24mm carb and the Air cooling.
(remember they were not there originally The rules were 125 four strokes 100cc 2 strokes.)

The idea being that they needed to be handicapped.The 25cc advantage was balanced by the thermal deficiencies and the restricted carb size.
E85's ethanol neatly nullifies one of those restrictions.
That's in essence the elephant in the room dressed as a trojan horse.
I am not against ethanol but i don't like seeing fuzzy quazzy scientific justifications to back it in order for some to gain an advantage.

Sure you can say the other's may benefit from E85, but nowhere as much as the Air cooled 125 will.

Avgas is a great leveler. No real advantage in any particular bike 2 or 4 air cooled or liquid cooled.
Its available all around the country is ultra consistent. It was added to the rules after the initial troubles with the removal of leaded super.
Id be happy for any fuel as long as it is fair.
The unavailability and discrepancies in performance advantages for some bikes of E85 rules that out.

Ask Neil the major reason he runs an ethanol blend...............in his air cooled two stroke.....


I would like to think the MNZ would thoroughly consider the discrepancies in the performance advantages before considering a fuel rule change.


Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.

It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.

[TALLIS]

After reading through this, i get lost in some where of motogp / superbikes... im not sure we are talking about bucket racing here?
from my experence two strokes are a dying breed in any type of motorsport let alone buckets, if the two stokes get an advantage out of e85 or and different pump gas, good on them, maybe its a pay off for all the time fucing around they do for there five minutes of reliability. And as the rules state no additives... witch 2 stroke oil is... hmmm.. maybe thats more of a concern. I dont know why the environment or health and safey even come in to it, 2 stroke engines are environmental nightmares and we all race these bikes to the limit witch is more likely to kill us that afew fuel fumes on a sunday morning. As for the north and south availability debate, i dont think it will be long before the rest of the country get similar blends of fuel available. Buckets are very diverse, some of us spend alot of time and money developing bikes and engines more to the point that are not suppose to make 2 times the power from standard, fuel and fuel quality are some of the key factors to hold them together at there limit. How about outlawing 2 strokes all together, everyone else has, problem solved... No, nothing like an annoying bubble bee chasing you! :yes:

just stand back and think about the sport and how its changing! Just my to cents

[kel]

Nice post Tallis.

I spoke to the Elf importer this morning. They currently have no stock of their equivilent FIM unleaded race fuel which is perfectly legal for our racing. They expect to bring in another batch in about 3months. Its currently around $8ltr when buying direct i.e. you have to have an account. Feel free to look up the specs on the Elf MITS FIM unleaded oxygenated fuels

283168

[F5 Dave]

Neil the emission from burning ethanol are not the only emissions the production of ethanol creates greater net environmental loss.
Same for all the biofuels and electric cars. If you brewed your own it would not be a commercially available pump fuel.
The relative toxicity is not in doubt i just object to Kel attempting to demonise Avgas's lead content in order to advance is cause.
As a whole unleaded petrol is as bad as leaded petrol . It was pushed away more for catalytic converters than any other reason.
the move to low lead and unleaded is one of the reasons also that fuel is more expensive to refine and the yields from crude are lower.

I am not all that worried either way about the environment (with the contribution buckets make)
i object to the justification and the pushing that it is available all around the country (which it is not)
plus the obvious inconsistencies of the performance in the different engines as i mentioned below.
The same reason you run it in your two stroke and see it as a potential benefit to a forced induction design is why i am against it use.


Anyone can't buy E85 its only available near Auckland.........


What do you think will happen...why do you think the regs were altered to allow for Avgas in the first place.
originally it was pump fuel super max, (with alcohol allowed for NA 100cc 4 strokes f4)



You know the answer to that one your self as does Kel and Rob.
The 125 2 strokes when they were added to the rules had 2 restrictions.
The 24mm carb and the Air cooling.
(remember they were not there originally The rules were 125 four strokes 100cc 2 strokes.)

The idea being that they needed to be handicapped.The 25cc advantage was balanced by the thermal deficiencies and the restricted carb size.
E85's ethanol neatly nullifies one of those restrictions.
That's in essence the elephant in the room dressed as a trojan horse.
I am not against ethanol but i don't like seeing fuzzy quazzy scientific justifications to back it in order for some to gain an advantage.

Sure you can say the other's may benefit from E85, but nowhere as much as the Air cooled 125 will.

Avgas is a great leveler. No real advantage in any particular bike 2 or 4 air cooled or liquid cooled.
Its available all around the country is ultra consistent. It was added to the rules after the initial troubles with the removal of leaded super.
Id be happy for any fuel as long as it is fair.
The unavailability and discrepancies in performance advantages for some bikes of E85 rules that out.

Ask Neil the major reason he runs an ethanol blend...............in his air cooled two stroke.....


I would like to think the MNZ would thoroughly consider the discrepancies in the performance advantages before considering a fuel rule change.


Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.

It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.

And this is a well written & telling post. I think Husi has nailed it here, I certainly had missed the aircooled point.

Btw Av costs about $3 locally & you don't need to buy much of it.

I have no expereince of E85, never seen it here. I'd like to recind my vote as I guess many others would bearing the full impact of it. It was worded to seem to say that you wouldn't be banned from rolling up to the local petrol station & buying some 95/98 or popping down to the local aero club & filling a tin.

[Flettner]

Opps, what have I started? :facepalm:

[FastFred]

Don't ban Avgas.....
Where exactly is Kel trying to ban Av Gas? What do you think will happen.....

I think we will have a wider choice of fuel, and I don't think that means Av Gas will be banned nor do I think it was Kels intention. I think that was just an attempt at a bit of scare mongering and ms-information on your part.

[FastFred]

For those that can't buy E10 locally and feel they are missing out, put 9 liters of whatever petrol you like in a tin and add 1 liter of methylated spirits and that is pretty much what E10 is. E85 ... well you do the math.

[husaberg]

If we have a wider choice of fuel, I don't think that means Av Gas will be banned nor do I think it was Kels intention. I think that was just an attempt at a bit of scare mongering and ms-information on your part.

It is not scare mongering. It is quite obvious to anyone that actually understands how the rules were devised plus why they are what they are and what limitations are on each engine class design.
Those that chose to under play the ramifacations and use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is planily do so to suit there own adgenda.

Read Daves Post ask your self how often do Dave and i agree.
Put a post on the ESE site asking Frits what the benefits for a Air cooled 2 stroke with a 25cc advantage vs a liquid cooled 100 2 stroke.

[crazy man]

It is not scare mongering. It is quite obvious to anyone that actually understands how the rules were devised plus why they are what they are and what limitations are on each engine class design.
Those that chose to under play the ramifacations and use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is planily do so to suit there own adgenda.

Read Daves Post ask your self how often do Dave and i agree.
Put a post on the ESE site asking Frits what the benefits for a Air cooled 2 stroke with a 25cc advantage vs a liquid cooled 100 2 stroke.thanks for the wright up l'm still learning

[FastFred]

For those that can't buy E10 locally and feel they are missing out, put 9 liters of whatever petrol you like in a tin and add 1 liter of methylated spirits and that is pretty much what E10 is. E85 ... well you do the math.


... use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is plainly (not).

You can't buy meths down your way????

[kel]

Wouldn't hurt to read this http://news.motorsport.org.nz/search-for-avgas-replacement-continues/
and this one http://news.motorsport.org.nz/e85-fuel-approved/ Im not sure how current these articles actually are.

Now I've been trying to find some decent on line info for E85 and air cooled 2 strokes but the infos not there (at least not with my key word searching), just a bunch of hicks talking about oil not mixing, corroded fuel lines etc.
I did find this. Now its a turbo 4 stroke application so the gains are BIG but its a good article for real E85 info http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/7/3/the-truth-about-e85-fuel.html. The power gains for a 125 normally aspirated 2 stroke are minimal. I could get more with the Elf FIM unleaded but it doesn't suit my need no matter what Husaberg may think

[jasonu]

Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.

It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.

I can explain that one.
In the mid 90's the Auckland Bucket entry levels were low enough that the meetings were costing the AMCC money to put on the events and the future of Auckland Buckets was in grave doubt. We even ditched the ambulance in favor of the cheaper option of an onsite medic to save some cash. Myself, Chris Pickett (RMSeng) and later Mike Green (Speedpro) penned a rule change that Mike submitted to the (I think) AMCC to be forwarded to the MNZ. It proposed 125 aircooled 2 strokes(we knew eventually someone would pry good power from them so included the 24mm carb restriction) to allow for the likes of the TF125 and TS/ER125's and up to 145 4 strokes to allow for GL145 bikes. The idea was to encourage new riders that didn't really want to do more to their bikes than plug the bars and pegs and wire the sump plug to have a go without busting the bank on a 'fancy' bike. The rule was later amended to allow 150 4 strokes ie FXR150's. I think it was a total fucking success. It is the class that attracts the most entries, it has engine and frame builders of all levels, there are home built frames, GP frames, 30+hp motors and a thread on KB that has attracted some of the best small engine tuners in the world.

[TZ350]

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating. So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.

283179

I voted yes I agree 24.2.5 should be updated and I will tell you why, its not to do away with Av Gas, I think that's an OK fuel too but its so we will be able to use un leaded as defined in the proposed rule change that Billy's looking at and that will probably come into effect. Personally I don't see much cooling advantage in E10 or 10% Ethanol as a cooling agent in air cooled 2-Strokes but I would like to be able to use a 100-108 octane unleaded fuel.

I was asked to vote, and say why, that's my 2 cents worth.

[speedpro]

Wouldn't hurt to read this . . . . . Now its a turbo 4 stroke application so the gains are BIG but its a good article for real E85 info http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/7/3/the-truth-about-e85-fuel.html.

The article mentions that E85 burns slower so you can run more boost etc and evidently it burns cooler as well. I wouldn't be taking too much that article says as evidence for anything.

[Grumph]

283179


I voted yes to doing away with 24.2.5 without it we could use un leaded as defined in the proposed rule change that Billy's looking at and will probably come into effect. Personally I don't see much cooling advantage in E10 or 10% Ethanol as a cooling agent in air cooled 2-Strokes.

Correct - E10 has no significant effect. The calorific value is actually down a tad on 98 I understand too.

Don't bring in E85 as you WILL change the balance of the class and obsolete existing machinery.

Someone said they thought it wouldn't be long before the SI got E10....Historically the SI's fuel comes from a different source than the North. The trans tasman tankers come to the SI as far as I know. Until it's economically necessary for the SI to get E10 I suspect it won't be here.

[TZ350]

Until it's economically necessary for the SI to get E10 I suspect it won't be here.

283181
The rule change does not specify that you have to buy commercial E10, it only outlines a specification that E10 fits into or was made for, the spec, its something that you can buy ready made or make for yourself.

Maybe we are lucky up here as we can buy it ready made, saves a bit of time, fast food fuel if you like, but as far as I can see, availability is not an issue because if you're interested then you can blend your own easily enough.

[F5 Dave]

I can explain that one.
In the mid 90's the Auckland Bucket entry levels were low enough that the meetings were costing the AMCC money to put on the events and the future of Auckland Buckets was in grave doubt. We even ditched the ambulance in favor of the cheaper option of an onsite medic to save some cash. Myself, Chris Pickett (RMSeng) and later Mike Green (Speedpro) penned a rule change that Mike submitted to the (I think) AMCC to be forwarded to the MNZ. It proposed 125 aircooled 2 strokes(we knew eventually someone would pry good power from them so included the 24mm carb restriction) to allow for the likes of the TF125 and TS/ER125's and up to 145 4 strokes to allow for GL145 bikes. The idea was to encourage new riders that didn't really want to do more to their bikes than plug the bars and pegs and wire the sump plug to have a go without busting the bank on a 'fancy' bike. The rule was later amended to allow 150 4 strokes ie FXR150's. I think it was a total fucking success. It is the class that attracts the most entries, it has engine and frame builders of all levels, there are home built frames, GP frames, 30+hp motors and a thread on KB that has attracted some of the best small engine tuners in the world. yes it bore out to be a good update

[crazy man]

Opps, what have I started? :facepalm:a oldy foy you he he/ l like old threads http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/20357-Jim-Steadman-bikes

[richban]

Voted. No.

Why. Its simple. Yes I can use it. But the 2 stoke bikes will gain more of advantage than the 4 strokes. Simple as that.

[Flettner]

Out of interest, what mostly wins these days two or fourstrokes? Do water cooled bikes feature still ?

[husaberg]

yes it bore out to be a good update

Yes it was, but but as i keep saying changing the fuel rules to allow the removal of a key restriction that keeps the planing field relativity level.
Then trying to justify it saying it is because of availability or toxicity is untrue.
Attempting to feign ignorance of the performance enhancing effect on a Air cooled 2 stroke 125 is wrong.
This would also be an advantage to a forced induction bike.
Yes the octane may be similar to a fuel that is legal yet one one uses may be true.
But the octane is not the Major advantage or either is the calorific value otherwise no one would ever use Methanol would they.
The caloric value This is mitigated by the fact high percentage Alcohol fuels run a vastly richer fuel mixture.


Some one mentions mixing your own how can that be a option if the proposed rule change is restricted to Commercially available pump fuel.

Any rule change to the fuel rules that allows for E85 advantages some to a huge extent as it removes the restriction that was placed on the Air cooled 125cc 2 strokes.

I can remember when CNG was being pushed and everyone said...... oh it will be available everywhere in the South Island soon still waiting.



Wouldn't hurt to read this http://news.motorsport.org.nz/search-for-avgas-replacement-continues/
and this one http://news.motorsport.org.nz/e85-fuel-approved/ Im not sure how current these articles actually are.

Now I've been trying to find some decent on line info for E85 and air cooled 2 strokes but the infos not there (at least not with my key word searching), just a bunch of hicks talking about oil not mixing, corroded fuel lines etc.
I did find this. Now its a turbo 4 stroke application so the gains are BIG but its a good article for real E85 info http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/7/3/the-truth-about-e85-fuel.html. The power gains for a 125 normally aspirated 2 stroke are minimal. I could get more with the Elf FIM unleaded but it doesn't suit my need no matter what Husaberg may think

Yes FIM unleaded would not suit you need Yet more smoke less mirrors

Thermal loading and the ability to shed heat Kel......
You mean to insinuate that you are unaware that it is the major restrictions on any air cooled two stroke
Then that You are also unaware of the advantage of a high Alcohol content fuel to an air cooled 2 stroke.
You also seem to avoid the availability issue that was one of your initial soap box points....... why?

[crazy man]

Voted. No.

Why. Its simple. Yes I can use it. But the 2 stoke bikes will gain more of advantage than the 4 strokes. Simple as that.agree there was at least five 2 strokes at the gp that had more power and lighter the the best four strokes..

[crazy man]

Out of interest, what mostly wins these days two or fourstrokes? Do water cooled bikes feature still ?reliablity is it seems what counts

[richban]

reliablity is it seems what counts

I thought is was being skinny! True that though. to finish first blah blah first you must not eat all the pies.

[TZ350]

Good one ......... :laugh:

[crazy man]

I thought is was being skinny! True that though. to finish first blah blah first you must not eat all the pies.thats ok then cause l only like KFC:facepalm:

[richban]

thats ok then cause l only like KFC:facepalm:

Well I have just dropped 3 kg with a stomach bug. If you hurry round for a little kiss I am sure you could 2.:sick:

[Flettner]

If anyone can remember back far enough, fourstroke 100cc was open including fueling. Methanol / Ethanol and in fact nitro was allowed. I've always wanted to revisit those days with another attempt at supercharged 100 fourstroke ( ban nitro though it's just an engine wrecker !! ). It would need E85 to be viable, when E85's day comes, I'M IN.
Really no one should take any notice of what I say anyway as I'm not a bucket racer and probably shouldn't voice my opinions here I don't want to cause any problems, I'll butt out, move along nothing to see here;)

[husaberg]

If anyone can remember back far enough, fourstroke 100cc was open including fueling. Methanol / Ethanol and in fact nitro was allowed. I've always wanted to revisit those days with another attempt at supercharged 100 fourstroke ( ban nitro though it's just an engine wrecker !! ). It would need E85 to be viable, when E85's day comes, I'M IN.
Really no one should take any notice of what I say anyway as I'm not a bucket racer and probably shouldn't voice my opinions here I don't want to cause any problems, I'll butt out, move along nothing to see here;)

Come on Neil, you don't get off that easy, why is it E85 would be a game changer for you? on a forced induction 100cc bike what changes?;)
Why is it you chose to run an Alcohol mix on the Big air cooled Kawa?;)

I too remember the old regs but i remember them as ether Alcohol fuel 100cc four stroke or forced induction 100cc but its been a while.

[kel]

I guess a fuel spec sheet should have been included from the start.

283208

And rule 10.17.1
10-17-1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not
exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross,
Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country, ATV, Stockbike,
Solo, All Road Race except those classes listed in 10-17-2 and 10-17-3. All Mini and
Junior classes.

And of course appendix E (which if I understand right is about to be updated to include E10)
283209

[crazy man]

Well I have just dropped 3 kg with a stomach bug. If you hurry round for a little kiss I am sure you could 2.:sick: its amazing with 666 devil2: on your post can make you say these things lol..looks like all are posts are stuck

[husaberg]

I guess a fuel spec sheet should have been included from the start.

283208

And rule 10.17.1
10-17-1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not
exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross,
Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country, ATV, Stockbike,
Solo, All Road Race except those classes listed in 10-17-2 and 10-17-3. All Mini and
Junior classes.

And of course appendix E (which if I understand right is about to be updated to include E10)
283209


This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations - actually this one is incorrect and should read; This stuff can be bought at North Island petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.
Last edited by kel; Yesterday 24th May at 09:42. Reason: B. Availability, needed correcting


Kel that was not what you were proposing though was it.............
Why not start a pole that reflects that proposed change.
You are proposing a National rule Change yet it includes a fuel that benefits most a few Air cooled 2 stroke 125's and forced induction 100 four strokes)that are only in the North Island.

[Bert]

I Vote Yes.


I've done my dash with Avgas. After breathing in way too much exhaust fumes during dyno time plus with the amount I spill on myself, I think my lead levels are just about right. Plus Im tight. I want access to a cheaper, safer fuels that can still deliver reasonable power.

As far as safe goes avgas doesnt even rate a mention when you're talking bike racing as there's a lot more things likely to fuck you up, for the amount used it's not that expensive and is readily available (at least in the South)
By all means get E85 approved but dont give avgas the arse while you're doing it

Safety or not; it is good to have a choice at the top end on the RON rating.
Its a little bit of a surprise that they don't colour E85..


I think the fuel rule in 24.2.5 should be deleted so we have the same fuel choices.

That's the cleanest way of resolving this.


I guess a fuel spec sheet should have been included from the start.

283208

And rule 10.17.1
10-17-1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not
exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross,
Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country, ATV, Stockbike,
Solo, All Road Race except those classes listed in 10-17-2 and 10-17-3. All Mini and
Junior classes.


Fuel spec sheet really does need cleaning up in MOMs. Te side by side is far better.

[husaberg]

Bert the cleanest way to resolve this is retain the status quo.........

[twotempi]

First : I am not a current bucket-racer but am involved from time to time with TZ350's projects so tell me to butt out if you think appropriate.

A couple of things to consider

1) Why do you race buckets at all ?? - Answer - Because it's FUN and you enjoy the company of like-minded guys ( and girls ) . SO KEEP IT FUN !!! Don't let your quest for more power spoil the enjoyment of others, although this benevolent attitude tends to disappear when someone drops a green flag

2) E85 ( 85% Ethanol and 15% Petrol ) will give any thermally-challenged engine a bigger advantage than an already well-cooled engine. When Ethanol burns the main byproduct is water with very few nasties. In fact it is the petrol content produces the nasty stuff. However does this fuel give an unfair advantage to a 125 aircooled two-stroke ?? There are ways other than fuel to cool an engine. This fuel is also used in the Toyota TRS single-seat class.

Hint - you don't see Cessna engines just hung out in the breeze to be cooled!! - They are properly cowled to ensure cooling air flow to all the bits that need it.

3) Methanol alcohol and its burnt by-products are accummlative poisons . This alcohol CH2OH is NOT the same a ethanol CH3CH2OH and comparisons are misleading. The caloric valve ( in other works "the energy content" of ethanol is significantly lower than Methanol so the advantage is not so much compared to petrol.

4) The New Zealand supply of Ethanol is provided as a by-product of milk wey, but expect that to change as our milk industry gets sold to overseas investors who want to sell the product to the highest bidder. Just look how the price of milk has increased in NZ !!. Elsewhere in the world it is offered as a "green" fuel which is B....t as much good agricultural land is used so a few can drive cars while others starve.

5) The fuel economy of 'straight" petrol used in a bucket bike is a red-herring. How much petrol does it take to put in your van to drive to a meeting in Wellington compared to how much the bucket will use.

6) In fact in your endurance races maybe a bike on petrol would have an advantage by requiring less pit-stops for re-fuelling ??

7) Any eligible fuel has to be commercially available in BOTH the North and South islands, assuming that there is no bucket racing on Stewart Island.


I think that E10 or E15 is a good viable alternative but E85 is a step too far.
The use of Avgas is OK, but interesting I use a 50%/50% blend of 91 and Avgas in my 250cc air-cooled race bikes for the best performance. Straight Avgas, or using 98 has no advantage over this blend. Also 98 has detergents for cleaning injectors and other stuff in it.

My pennies worth - BUT most inportant remember to ENJOY the racing.

[husaberg]

First : I am not a current bucket-racer but am involved from time to time with TZ350's projects so tell me to butt out if you think appropriate.

A couple of things to consider

1) Why do you race buckets at all ?? - Answer - Because it's FUN and you enjoy the company of like-minded guys ( and girls ) . SO KEEP IT FUN !!! Don't let your quest for more power spoil the enjoyment of others, although this benevolent attitude tends to disappear when someone drops a green flag

2) E85 ( 85% Ethanol and 15% Petrol ) will give any thermally-challenged engine a bigger advantage than an already well-cooled engine. When Ethanol burns the main byproduct is water with very few nasties. In fact it is the petrol content produces the nasty stuff. However does this fuel give an unfair advantage to a 125 aircooled two-stroke ?? There are ways other than fuel to cool an engine. This fuel is also used in the Toyota TRS single-seat class.

Hint - you don't see Cessna engines just hung out in the breeze to be cooled!! - They are properly cowled to ensure cooling air flow to all the bits that need it.

3) Methanol alcohol and its burnt by-products are accummlative poisons . This alcohol CH2OH is NOT the same a ethanol CH3CH2OH and comparisons are misleading. The caloric valve ( in other works "the energy content" of ethanol is significantly lower than Methanol so the advantage is not so much compared to petrol.

4) The New Zealand supply of Ethanol is provided as a by-product of milk wey, but expect that to change as our milk industry gets sold to overseas investors who want to sell the product to the highest bidder. Just look how the price of milk has increased in NZ !!. Elsewhere in the world it is offered as a "green" fuel which is B....t as much good agricultural land is used so a few can drive cars while others starve.

5) The fuel economy of 'straight" petrol used in a bucket bike is a red-herring. How much petrol does it take to put in your van to drive to a meeting in Wellington compared to how much the bucket will use.

6) In fact in your endurance races maybe a bike on petrol would have an advantage by requiring less pit-stops for re-fuelling ??

7) Any eligible fuel has to be commercially available in BOTH the North and South islands, assuming that there is no bucket racing on Stewart Island.


I think that E10 or E15 is a good viable alternative but E85 is a step too far.
The use of Avgas is OK, but interesting I use a 50%/50% blend of 91 and Avgas in my 250cc air-cooled race bikes for the best performance. Straight Avgas, or using 98 has no advantage over this blend. Also 98 has detergents for cleaning injectors and other stuff in it.

My pennies worth - BUT most inportant remember to ENJOY the racing.

I agree with pretty much all of that of then the advantage bit.
As i keep banging on at. The restrictions placed on the 125ac are the carb and the air cooling
an alcohol based fuel benefits this class a huge degree. AS none of them are thermally efficient in race trim.

I asked Frits Overmas to check my Maths he found no fault in it (it was based on Bells book)


I base this on the 85% ethanol mix (using my maths) to have a assumed latent heat of evaporation of around 368 BTU/pound (ethanol is assumed to be 410 BTU/Pound.
Petrol being around 135 BTU/pound.
The may not seem significant, but the correct E85 mixture will end up burning 1.53 times as much fuel.(based on the relative mixtures correct for both in proportion) (this is for Max Power forget lean burn cars)

So merely the vaporisation of the fuel will be removing the EQ of 4.17 times as much heat as petrol.

Yet only adding from its burning 8.5% more heat than petrol.

This same thermal advantage would also be exploitable by a forced induction engine.(you could really crank up the boost)

These same advantages will be to anywhere near the same level with a liquid cooled engine 2 stroke or with a four stroke.

It is a game changer..........The ultimate level playing field un-leveler presented as a gift Horse


Another issue as i see it is once ethanol fuels are legal it makes it harder to simply test for their presence.
Something either billy or chopper alluded to.

Its perverse to change the rules afvantage on class in a level competition when they already are producing class leading HP.
It is also perverse to change national F4 and F5 to a fuel that is only available in the North island
If its availability for Kel with no lead you want what is wrong with simple pump unleaded.
But watch out for the Benzine and the MTBE they may get you quicker than lead will.

IF the rules where changed say to raise the cc limit of the F4 100cc bikes to 111cc or so (From 103.5? or similar)
So they could run 52-53mm strike pistons. without closlty one of custom destroked pins.
That would be a rule change that could save significant amounts of money. But i bet the other classes would cry foul:yes:

[kel]

Now in case anyone was wondering its super easy to test fuel for presence of Ethanol :rolleyes: , you can look up the procedure on the net or you could just buy test kits ready to go from Alcotane http://www.alcotane.co.nz/fuel-testing/ Only $2.50 per test and it can be done track side. I guess that might just make make it the easiest fuel in racing to police.

[husaberg]

Now in case anyone was wondering its super easy to test fuel for presence of Ethanol :rolleyes: , you can look up the procedure on the net or you could just buy test kits ready to go from Alcotane http://www.alcotane.co.nz/fuel-testing/ Only $2.50 per test and it can be done track side. I guess that might just make make it the easiest fuel in racing to police.

If the base Fuel contains no alcohol (which is the present rules for 25-30 years)
there is even cheaper easier tests.....
Water plus fuel and a graduated test tube...........

But why would they want to cheat.
as you say, there is no advantage of using a high ethanol fuel in a air-cooled 2 stroke aye Kel;)

[twotempi]

testing for Ethanol is easy. Does it taste better with lime & soda water or not.