Electric Bucket

[CHOPPA]

I have a guy wants to put an 20hp electric motor in my bucket for a uni project. How do I work out the CC on an electric motor :pinch:

Is a hoover considered a racing engine?

[carburator]

the conversion factor depends on the output of the flux capacitor..

[Henk]

Is it a two stroke or four stroke electric motor?

There is no way it would be eligible under the current rules, my advice would be to talk to the guys running the show down your way, Fish and Skunk I think and ask them if they mind you running it. If it was up here we'd probably let it go as long as it wasn't

a) making everything else look stupidly underpowered
b) so different in it's characteristics that it became a hazard.

[granstar]

Great idea :sherlock: but you are going to be limited by the length of the power cord :corn:

[bogan]

Some womble (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/116916-What-about-an-electric-Bucket?highlight=electric+bucket) has asked about this before, but he got the wrong color flux capacitor so it never got quick enough to take along.

If he want tips/advice or help with component selection or anything else, PM me his email and I'll be happy to help out.

[jasonu]

I have a guy wants to put an 20hp electric motor in my bucket for a uni project. How do I work out the CC on an electric motor :pinch:

Is a hoover considered a racing engine?

If it is faster than my bike (when it is finished anyway) it is too big...

[GSVR]

Theres not enough technical ability in NZ to build a successful electric racebike even a bucket. Almost everything would need to be imported

Its one thing putting a battery and electric motor into an existing frame like people the world over are doing. But a true electric would be puropose built.



A 20 HP electric motor is IMO way to big for a bucket. Theres 5KW motors that will give good range without an excessive and expensive battery pack. One Horsepower is around 0.7457 Kilowatts or 1 Kilowatt is around 1.341 Horsepower

Working out the power is easy you multiply the voltage of the battery by the max amps you are drawing and get the wattage.

Racing against petrol powered bikes would be a waste of time. Electric bikes would need their own class to develop in.

[jasonu]

Theres not enough technical ability in NZ to build a successful electric racebike even a bucket.


Yeah ya bunch of thick Noo Zulland crunts.

[jellywrestler]

Theres not enough technical ability in NZ to build a successful electric racebike even a bucket. Almost everything would need to be imported

Its one thing putting a battery and electric motor into an existing frame like people the world over are doing. But a true electric would be puropose built.



A 20 HP electric motor is IMO way to big for a bucket. Theres 5KW motors that will give good range without an excessive and expensive battery pack. One Horsepower is around 0.7457 Kilowatts or 1 Kilowatt is around 1.341 Horsepower

Working out the power is easy you multiply the voltage of the battery by the max amps you are drawing and get the wattage.

Racing against petrol powered bikes would be a waste of time. Electric bikes would need their own class to develop in.
get your head out of your arse and go and tell Bill Buckley that, I could here him laughing from here.

[GSVR]

get your head out of your arse and go and tell Bill Buckley that, I could here him laughing from here.

Like the BSL? That bike was a laugh and a huge waste.

[bogan]

Theres not enough technical ability in NZ to build a successful electric racebike even a bucket. Almost everything would need to be imported

Its one thing putting a battery and electric motor into an existing frame like people the world over are doing. But a true electric would be puropose built.



A 20 HP electric motor is IMO way to big for a bucket. Theres 5KW motors that will give good range without an excessive and expensive battery pack. One Horsepower is around 0.7457 Kilowatts or 1 Kilowatt is around 1.341 Horsepower

Working out the power is easy you multiply the voltage of the battery by the max amps you are drawing and get the wattage.

Racing against petrol powered bikes would be a waste of time. Electric bikes would need their own class to develop in.

Don't buckets make like 20-30hp? Good luck keeping up with only 7. By your metric that is what my electric had, and no way was it anywhere near fast enough. Very likely an electric will be heavier, so to keep up you'd need to be at least in the same ballpark hp-wise, and possibly a gearbox. No huge benefit in a custom frame over a retrofit, everything would just be easier to fit.

[Drew]

and possibly a gearbox. Fuck that, two words. Variable belt!

[GSVR]

Don't buckets make like 20-30hp? Good luck keeping up with only 7. By your metric that is what my electric had, and no way was it anywhere near fast enough. Very likely an electric will be heavier, so to keep up you'd need to be at least in the same ballpark hp-wise, and possibly a gearbox. No huge benefit in a custom frame over a retrofit, everything would just be easier to fit.

Read my post again. No intention to "keep up". My thoughts are in the introduction of a practical race class at bucket level.

You can race anything whatever the power. 5KW would be dam fun I reacon will heaps of rider skill required to maintain momentum and conserve power. And the battery required would be about one third the cost of one for a 15KW bike.

5KW bikes would be more like the bicycle frames of the first petrol race motorcycles

[Drew]

5KW bikes would be more like the bicycle frames of the first petrol race motorcyclesQue the home built frame resurrection!

[GSVR]

Fuck that, two words. Variable belt!

Dont actually need gears or mechanical control you just control the amount of current and voltage you feed the motor.

The 100 mph TTX bike doesn't have gears!

[GSVR]

Que the home built frame resurrection!

Im thinking Fibreglass Monocoque .

[Drew]

Dont actually need gears or mechanical control you just control the amount of current and voltage you feed the motor.

The 100 mph TTX bike doesn't have gears!

I was thinking more about conserving energy. Manually control the ratio, and peg the gearing back for lower revs through the twisty bits.

I think it'd be very advantageous for the likes of coming down the hill at Kaitoke for instance.

Since electric motors are meant to make 100% of their torque all the way to their rev ceiling like, I figure it's more economical.

I'm not well smart like some though, so there's more than a strong likely-hood I haven't thought it all the way to it's conclusion.

[Drew]

Im thinking Fibreglass Monocoque .Glass is heavy though.

On a similar note. The Swedish fellow who designed and builds LCR sidecar monocoque, took a look at someones carbon fibre copy of his aluminium, and was heard to say. "It's pretty, but not necessary".

[bogan]

Dont actually need gears or mechanical control you just control the amount of current and voltage you feed the motor.

The 100 mph TTX bike doesn't have gears!

Bet it has more than 5kW though... its only once you get to a certain torque, or narrow operating speed range gears are no longer of much use. 5kW would still be a laugh, but it's more suited to joining the pocket bike racing than the bucket racing.


Fuck that, two words. Variable belt!

May be overkill for a motor with such a linear smooth torque curve. Did some concepts up for a 3 speed auto a while ago, just use centripetal and sprag clutches.


I was thinking more about conserving energy. Manually control the ratio, and peg the gearing back for lower revs through the twisty bits.

I think it'd be very advantageous for the likes of coming down the hill at Kaitoke for instance.

Since electric motors are meant to make 100% of their torque all the way to their rev ceiling like, I figure it's more economical.

I'm not well smart like some though, so there's more than a strong likely-hood I haven't thought it all the way to it's conclusion.

No compression losses and bugger all friction losses in an electric motor, so any efficiency gains may well be canceled out by the decreased efficiency of a CVT belt drive

[Drew]

Bet it has more than 5kW though... its only once you get to a certain torque, or narrow operating speed range gears are no longer of much use. 5kW would still be a laugh, but it's more suited to joining the pocket bike racing than the bucket racing.



May be overkill for a motor with such a linear smooth torque curve. Did some concepts up for a 3 speed auto a while ago, just use centripetal and sprag clutches.



No compression losses and bugger all friction losses in an electric motor, so any efficiency gains may well be canceled out by the decreased efficiency of a CVT belt drive

See, didn't think it through. Story of my life!

[bogan]

See, didn't think it through. Story of my life!

Just don't try spannering on an electric without some forethought, one of the electric racebike mechanics dropped a spanner across some battery terminals, slagged it. I bricked a multimeter cos I had it plugged into the the current port and went to measure voltage :facepalm:

[F5 Dave]

I blew the fuse on the 400mA range of my multimeter & I'm too lazy to fix it. Does that count?

[Drew]

Just don't try spannering on an electricDon't worry, I won't be.:no:

[GSVR]

On a different angle.
How would the bucket fraternity react if someone was to turn up with a KERRS device or a Hybrid that used both electric and petrol simultaineously?

[bogan]

I blew the fuse on the 400mA range of my multimeter & I'm too lazy to fix it. Does that count?

Well if you want help with counting, a calculator is probably better than a multimeter anyway, and surely better than one with a blown fuse :bleh:

[Drew]

On a different angle.
How would the bucket fraternity react if someone was to turn up with a KERRS device or a Hybrid that used both electric and petrol simultaineously?

There's a rule that says you can only have one motor I think. Someone referenced it at the prospect of using a chainsaw motor to power a supercharger that fed a drive motor.

[GSVR]

Glass is heavy though.

On a similar note. The Swedish fellow who designed and builds LCR sidecar monocoque, took a look at someones carbon fibre copy of his aluminium, and was heard to say. "It's pretty, but not necessary".

Dennis Connor may not agree. His Alloy boat was the last Americias Cup one I think. Youd only use plastic if you wanted to cheat.

Saying Fibreglass when I should really had said composites.

Like Lance Amstrongs "Trek Madone Carbon Bike"

[Fergus]

Glass is heavy though.


It's half the density of titanium and three times as strong :yes:

[jellywrestler]

Like the BSL? That bike was a laugh and a huge waste.

really, if you actually followed it closely in the time frame they did it in and the improvements they made I dont think so.
the thing that stopped it progressing is they couldn't test in on NZ tracks due to our noise restrictions and no point in muffling it and changing it's characteristics to test it here in different conditions.Seriously take a look at the BSL web siet and see that they make everything from cancer machines to other incredible stuff, don't write off new zeland talent and abilitites in one foul swoop

[jellywrestler]

Im thinking Fibreglass Monocoque .

ha fucking ha, it'd last two minutes if that

[GSVR]

really, if you actually followed it closely in the time frame they did it in and the improvements they made I dont think so.
the thing that stopped it progressing is they couldn't test in on NZ tracks due to our noise restrictions and no point in muffling it and changing it's characteristics to test it here in different conditions.Seriously take a look at the BSL web siet and see that they make everything from cancer machines to other incredible stuff, don't write off new zeland talent and abilitites in one foul swoop

Thanks for the heads up. And here was me thinking it was becuase the class it raced in ceased to be.

Excuses are what you use when failure is imminent.




ha fucking ha, it'd last two minutes if that

Nice to have a NZer with sound technical knowlege to be able to make informed decisions. Which two minutes are you talking about? The batteries would be flat in one minute right?

[Shorty_925]

Here's electric motcross : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCyyNxHmDqg

Think on a muddy day it would suck the juice out of the batteries.

Think it would help with any noise issues.

[sinfull]

On a different angle.
How would the bucket fraternity react if someone was to turn up with a KERRS device or a Hybrid that used both electric and petrol simultaineously?

You'd have no idea !

[Moooools]

20hp dreams are far too small.

https://www.facebook.com/amzracing?ref=ts&fref=ts

190hp. 130kg and 4WD. That is less than a CBR150 I think.
I would say the batteries they use would be a challenge to package on a bike. And also will only last about 3 runs of 20 minutes before they need replacing.

[GSVR]

You'd have no idea !

Buckets is all about tinkering to my mind. But recovering kinetic energy may be considered crossing the line.

Even using an electric motor to drive a supercharger instead of driving it off the primary power source may be considered illegal.

As posted earlier in the thread people don't mind what you do as long as you aren't in front of them.

Choppa is considering building an electric bike which is awesome. But it would be sad if he went to all that trouble and then couldn't race it because it was too fast or powerful. LOL

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/cyclespeedway

[F5 Dave]

There's no such thing as an Electric bucket. Its not catered for in our class, - just as it isn't in any other current MNZ class. Whether we would mind if someone showed up in a temporary 'can I try this out' situation is a side issue.

Currently in wgtn there is not room for another class as we are beholden to other people's race events.



Wonder what the hazard of a crashed improvised battery pack is?

[CHOPPA]

Hmm I wasnt actually expecting any constructive comments but this is great!

The young guy that wants to do it has already made an electric road going car. He has showed me all the pictures and reckons it has a range of 200ks. He wanted to do a road bike but I suggested a bucket race bike would be a far better R&D project!

Batterys are very expensive though, id be happy if it could do 10-15mins if it could charge between motos

[Drew]

Given the current state of how the batteries are manufactured, and the enormous cost to the environment, I struggle to see the relevance of making any electric vehicle to be honest.

The bucket racing class is not the ideal test facility for something like this I don't think. The class is so spread out in terms of development and engineering, there is not a solid enough base line for comparison.

The 250 development class would be a good one to go head to head with. If you can define fair criteria that is.