Why the Buells went...

[scumdog]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/bikes/8777768/Stripped-down-Harley-rebounds-from-recession.

A long read but worth it imho.

[nallac]

But Buell wasn't losing money.. Harley as a brand was.

[Edbear]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/bikes/8777768/Stripped-down-Harley-rebounds-from-recession.

A long read but worth it imho.

A good read, though. Very interesting. :yes:

[Voltaire]

Ah...brotherhood and lifestyle.....that's why no one waves at me on my 24 year old BMW then :weep:

[oneofsix]

But Buell wasn't losing money.. Harley as a brand was.

Might be so but like the article said they only had a limited R&D budget and at the time 3 brands demanding it. As a not a HD fan I have to admit some of their latest offering are looking reasonable. So IMHO he has done right for HD, and that was the senior brand and lynch-pin to the company. Pity someone else couldn't have kept Buell going as per MV Augusta.

[Crasherfromwayback]

A long read but worth it imho.

Unfortunately XR1200's and the V-Rod family are next to go.

[jasonu]

Unfortunately XR1200's and the V-Rod family are next to go.

What is unfortunate about that? V-Rods are about the ugliest HD ever.

[Crasherfromwayback]

What is unfortunate about that? V-Rods are about the ugliest HD ever.

Well that's your opinion.

[Paul in NZ]

What is unfortunate about that? V-Rods are about the ugliest HD ever.

And their first stab at a 'modern' engine.... Possible to put younger guys on V rods I guess but BB's? Dunno....

IMHO this is a mistake and almost exactly what the british did. Concentrate only on bike 'exclusive' bikes in a narrowing segment and happy to let the others capacity classes die off because they were not as profitable.

They lost manufacturing capacity, market savvy and design innovation...

[ktm84mxc]

I'm not a Harley fan , but the Buell's were different and edgy a cafe racer for sure. more the pity some one like Victory couldn't pick them up as they were profitable and in demand.

[Big Dave]

and in demand.

In NZ where they were particularly well suited.
Overall they accounted for 3% of H-D sales.

[avgas]

I'm not a Harley fan , but the Buell's were different and edgy a cafe racer for sure. more the pity some one like Victory couldn't pick them up as they were profitable and in demand.
Victory don't even have the production budget to produce their own motorbikes (Kore anyone?) let alone buy another production facility.

[avgas]

In NZ where they were particularly well suited.
Overall they accounted for 3% of H-D sales.
Motorbike sales? Or $ sales?
60% of Harleys coin doesn't come from bikes.

[Big Dave]

Motorbike sales? Or $ sales?
60% of Harleys coin doesn't come from bikes.

Numer of units.

[Jjgres]

The Big V-twin market is huge over here. 1/2 of all sales last I heard. H-D, Polaris-Victory and now Polaris-Indian all want the same buyer. Add in the Japanese big twins for good measure.

Besides, the Europeans and Japan do sport bikes so well why bother?

[gammaguy]

Marketing and sentimentality are often mutually exclusive

I personally loved the Buells,but the marketing disaster they ultimately were for Harleys bottom line is hard to defend.

They had to go and I can see why they will keep paring back the range in the future if it means survival.

The future for our industry is a challenging one,and throw in the Chinese and Taiwanese to the mix and we have interesting times ahead,the old way is not going to cut it any more.

[leeroy996]

EBR is Eric Buell. Pretty hard to find a better off the shelf race bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetWxMAHVqU

[Drew]

EBR is Eric Buell. Pretty hard to find a better off the shelf race bike.What shelf? For what class?

You want a superbike off the shelf, the BMW S1000R is the unbeatable option.

[scumdog]

What shelf? For what class?

You want a superbike off the shelf, the BMW S1000R is the unbeatable option.

Now? or years ago?

[leeroy996]

Now? or years ago?

Eric made 100 last year, he plans to build a more affordable street version in the future.
The 1190RS is 40kUSD but its completely setup to race.

[Drew]

The 1190RS is 40kUSD but its completely setup to race.What class, and where though.

And nothing is completely set up to race, unless they build one off bikes for each customer to tune suspension and engine mapping to each ones riding style. In which case, it's the cheapest custom bike on the planet.

Currently, for the same money, a punter could simply not go past the BMW S1000RR. In order to be as competitive as they possibly could.

[Drew]

Now? or years ago?I don't understand the question sorry. I thought the conversation was about current bikes...Even though it's a tad off topic to the original post.

[imdying]

I'm simply not interested in any racing that lets people cheat on engine size because they chopse to use an inferior engine configuration... WSBK et all can suck my balls.

[westie]

Of all my bikes I miss the buell the most. Such a good ride.

[Big Dave]

Of all my bikes I miss the buell the most. Such a good ride.

Agree much.

[James Deuce]

I wouldn't know I didn't get to ride my Buell long enough to bond with it. I do know though that the only bike to give me the same wobbly-tummy-feelings of late is the new Ducati Hyperstrada.

There was nothing disastrous about Buell. HD didn't invest in the brand enough so the return never eventuated. By the time it started to go right for Buell in terms of engineering and product, the world's money, real and otherwise, was swirling down a virtual plughole.

Personally I think motorcycles are changing faster than HD will ever be able to keep up with and they are liable to be left high and dry despite a recent return to profitability. The best Harley I've ridden was a Street Rod. Don't get me wrong, they're all fun. But if they don't start developing ABS, TCS, and start working on extending fuel range they are liable to be legislated out of existence by default, not malice.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. But if they don't start developing ABS, TCS, and start working on extending fuel range they are liable to be legislated out of existence by default, not malice.

Ummmmm...cept every single Big Block and the complete V-Rod family already have a very good ABS system.

[James Deuce]

Ummmmm...cept every single Big Block and the complete V-Rod family already have a very good ABS system.

You could be less patronising, but that would defeat the purpose of winding me up, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't know. I haven't really been bothering to keep up with developments in potato-potato-land, because most of the owners are wankers, and the concept seems dated, irrelevant, and massively overindulgent.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You could be less patronising, but that would defeat the purpose of winding me up, wouldn't it?

.

You're not worth winding up Jim.

[scumdog]

because most of the owners are wankers, and the concept seems dated, irrelevant, and massively overindulgent.

Wow, thanks for the ego boost citizen!:pinch:

[Big Dave]

If a sarcasm falls in a forum and nobody hears it, is it an irony?

[Laava]

I read the stripped back Harley article and sadly it seems to me that Buells are very unlikely to be a mainstream bike in the near future. For a start Erik has had the Buell brand taken by Harley and prob will never get it back. Secondly he has been planning on bringing three new models to the general public but has been only able to front up with a very special street race bike. It will be a miracle if he can stay in business. I for one would absolutely love to see him succeed, but look at the number of new bike manufacturers that we see produce a road going prototype but then drop from view. Ie that american v four sport bike.

[Berries]

I must say, I thought the HD branded linked advertising was quite clever.

[leeroy996]

It will be a miracle if he can stay in business. I for one would absolutely love to see him succeed, but look at the number of new bike manufacturers that we see produce a road going prototype but then drop from view. Ie that american v four sport bike.

Agree, margins are tight for street bikes. I think EBR will exist for a long time but end up a niche player like Bimota; it will never reach the levels of the HD backed Buell.

[Grizzo]

Interesting read, cheers for posting.

[motogpwerks Chris]

The article was penned from another on motorcycle dealer news .
I know Eric really well as im the only dealer for EBR here in L.A and i help with all the fuel injection (motec)on the race bikes for Ama.
Buell wasn't losing money,they made money.
All off H.D R&D costs all went on buell books ,including lemons like the V-Rod (125million) this is why buell was averaging 45-65 million loss each year.This was to make the H.D books look average during there restucture.
What also they won't say is there is a wharehouse owned by H.D finance dept in long beach with approx 25,000 units that have been repo during the past 4 years off the recession from the west coast off America and won't be released due to flooding a market thats barely hanging on.
The market is flooded with H.D's most people who brought them lost them through the recession including there houses very little are buying new bikes.Alot off dealers are now selling overseas without H.D wishes mostly to thailand and malaysia as there import laws recently changed.
H.d is the No.1 selling motorcycle in The U.S closely followed by polaris & honda.
There is some mega dealers like Chaparral & Berts who are still selling 950-1100 units per month with over 200 staff at the dealership but most single line dealerships have folded and this with 20million people and perfect riding 362 days a year.
H.D is also the only motorcycle brand not once but twice getting a hand out to get through the recession unlike the other brands that didn't from the Govt.
When it comes to owning a EBR ,maybe 3 years ago when it was new to the industry but not now.The bike is outdated ,yes they made 100 off them but i know off 30 that haven't sold and 15 or so were turned to race bikes.The motor was used from excess stock from the HD years (1125r) and then pulled apart (bigger jugs,cams, forged pistons) and reassembled.The chassis is pretty close to the old 1125r .The worst part is the wheels they are maganesuim and are sand casted and are very rough also if you look carefull the wheels don't match from the front to the back.
They did get a cash influx from hero brand a india motorcycle company that EBR works for to pay the wages.The company also got a 20million cheque for development through the local govt but think that there is a average joe buell coming is still up in the air as funding has caught up as well as other companys have surpassed them in design and the track.

[leeroy996]

Interesting; so EBR are probably going to drop out of AMA?

[Str8 Jacket]

If a sarcasm falls in a forum and nobody hears it, is it an irony?

Well irony is the opposite to wrinkly, right? I thought only wrinklies rode Harleys?!?! ;)

[motogpwerks Chris]

I doult if EBr will leave AMA,This year they had the funding by Hero to race a season off WSB but due to the bike having really no electronic package this was just a dream.My friend was running cosworth (torrance,now closed and cosworth i up for sale for 125milloin when the owner paid 1 million for it off ford) and he was helping them since cosworth owns P.I which is what alot off wsb/motogp/F1 use for electronics nowdays but again you still need someone to drive the electronics and most techs have left the ama paddock and moved on overseas or just sick off it like myself.
The only reason he EBr had success is that AMA pulled back the spending on superbike by factory teams to futher gain more bikes on the grid but that didn't happen as the factory teams left.When i was at yoshimura it cost just as much to build a superbike than a supersport over the 3-4 year model run,the supersport needed serious man hours to extract Hp through engine development as well suspension development/tuning.Where a wsb superbike is just bolt up and go,most off the parts are already proven from the factory.Usually most parts can be used throughtout that model run off 3-4 years to keep costs down.

[Drew]

I doult if EBr will leave AMA,This year they had the funding by Hero to race a season off WSB but due to the bike having really no electronic package this was just a dream.My friend was running cosworth (torrance,now closed and cosworth i up for sale for 125milloin when the owner paid 1 million for it off ford) and he was helping them since cosworth owns P.I which is what alot off wsb/motogp/F1 use for electronics nowdays but again you still need someone to drive the electronics and most techs have left the ama paddock and moved on overseas or just sick off it like myself.
The only reason he EBr had success is that AMA pulled back the spending on superbike by factory teams to futher gain more bikes on the grid but that didn't happen as the factory teams left.When i was at yoshimura it cost just as much to build a superbike than a supersport over the 3-4 year model run,the supersport needed serious man hours to extract Hp through engine development as well suspension development/tuning.Where a wsb superbike is just bolt up and go,most off the parts are already proven from the factory.Usually most parts can be used throughtout that model run off 3-4 years to keep costs down.

I don't like this guy, he seems to know what he's on about.

Love the SRAD behind the Buell by the way.

[Geeen]

I don't like this guy, he seems to know what he's on about.

Love the SRAD behind the Buell by the way.

Hahahahahahaha!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Drew again.

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=James Deuce;1130561804

I wouldn't know. I haven't really been bothering to keep up with developments in potato-potato-land, because most of the owners are wankers, and the concept seems dated, irrelevant, and massively overindulgent.[/QUOTE]

You don't see that attitude much over here. Pretty much all bikers, no matter what the ride, all wave to each other on the road.

[Drew]

You don't see that attitude much over here. Pretty much all bikers, no matter what the ride, all wave to each other on the road.That must be a turn around. I remember the cartoons in 'Live to ride' mags being quite condescending toward Jap bikes.

[Big Dave]

In 'straylia nobody waves.

[Kelz]

Long live EBR, cause when you warp the disc on your old XB, and thats a common occurence, they've got the best deal on a new one :)

[Big Dave]

Is it that common? I've read about a few - but it wasn't a meltdown on the Buell groups like some of the other issues were. Or maybe I just missed it.

I stuffed the steering head bearing on my XB12X (mainly from doing stoppies) but the disc was sweet as for the 5 I owned it.

[Drew]

Is it that common? I've read about a few - but it wasn't a meltdown on the Buell groups like some of the other issues were. Or maybe I just missed it.

I stuffed the steering head bearing on my XB12X (mainly from doing stoppies) but the disc was sweet as for the 5 I owned it.All three of the Buells that came through our group of riders, ended up with a fucked front rotor.

They hotspot on the trailing edge of the vent holes, and material gets dragged back round the disk.

Think it comes down to how deep a rider chases the front into a corner. People who ride smooth and sweepy probably don't have an issue.

Purely conjecture of course. I haven't looked into it proper or nuthin.

[Kelz]

Is it that common? I've read about a few - but it wasn't a meltdown on the Buell groups like some of the other issues were. Or maybe I just missed it.

I stuffed the steering head bearing on my XB12X (mainly from doing stoppies) but the disc was sweet as for the 5 I owned it.

From what I've been told and read I think it's not uncommon. My new EBR disc is slotted where the original was cross drilled. The new mounting kit is also different to the original setup with no springs in it. I can only guess the changes are made to try to make a better setup.

[Ocean1]

All three of the Buells that came through our group of riders, ended up with a fucked front rotor.

They hotspot on the trailing edge of the vent holes, and material gets dragged back round the disk.

Think it comes down to how deep a rider chases the front into a corner. People who ride smooth and sweepy probably don't have an issue.

Purely conjecture of course. I haven't looked into it proper or nuthin.

I've ridden all my Buells pretty much the same way. Touch glacial probably. The XB12R was fine on SSB pads, brilliant brakes. The first XB12X gave trouble on one std and one H2 pad. I fixed it ten different ways, eventually cup ground the rotor both sides, perfectly flat. And I mean perfect. New std pads and the problem was back inside 10k. A new rotor worked fine.

The 1125 front brake got a slightly harder time on both std and SSB pads and never gave trouble. Same with the new XB12X. So it's not riding style, it's across at least 3 different types of pad and it's far more common on '06-'07 machines, although the design didn't change. A pound gets you a pinch of shit it was related to a particular batch of rotor material.

I loved my 1125CR, but like most of it's class it was too small for me. I sold it because of that and the lack of ongoing support long term. The engine was an absolute peach, nothing I've ridden has anywhere near the torque spread and the power to weight was as good as anything. If there was a 2013 1125CR with the minor improvements you'd typically expect to see in a second gen bike, and if it was even 5% larger I'd own one today at twice the asking price.

[buellbabe]

Well this has to one of the most interesting Buell threads on the entire forum (at last!!!!).
Great read, cheers!

My Buells are still going strong and if the EBR street model becomes a viable line then I will be adding 1 to the stable.

HELL YEAH!

[hospitalfood]

Slightly of topic, I get my licence back on the first of august and I then have to get the green sticker removed from my 07 XB12R at VTNZ. The green sticker was attached due to the factory race muffler fitted. Anyone had any luck with the good old steel wool in the pipes trick to get the volume down ?

[Ocean1]

Slightly of topic, I get my licence back on the first of august and I then have to get the green sticker removed from my 07 XB12R at VTNZ. The green sticker was attached due to the factory race muffler fitted. Anyone had any luck with the good old steel wool in the pipes trick to get the volume down ?

I'd say the problem was that "not for highway use" on the zorst. I've got two standard one here if you want to swap.

[Big Dave]

Where the Buell went - on my front page!

http://www.bigdavesplace.com

[nallac]

Where the Buell went - on my front page!

http://www.bigdavesplace.com

Thats an uber sexy X1 BD...