David Bain vs The Crown - game over

[Erelyes]

My work colleagues are irrelevant to this discussion although if one of them screws up there's a chance someone ends up either dead or extremely sore. We're yet to kill anyone as far as I'm aware so we must be doing okay.

The point is the 10 minute period is a legal requirement. 10 minutes is equal to 600 seconds. It would have taken all of about three or four seconds of the popo's time to note the exact start & finish time so is it a case of laziness or more of a systematic problem originating from HQ? Who has been held accountable for this fuck-up?

I could understand the frustration (and maybe even Ed's baseless attack on the presiding Judge) if the issue was one of nano-seconds. As road-users we're all asked to remember the "three-second rule" so it's hardly rocket science is it?

:facepalm:

A cop makes the COMMON SENSE assumption that 10 seconds is fucking immaterial, some scumbag lawyer uses it as a technicality to let a guilty drink-driver walk and you hate the COPS rather than lawyers.

:facepalm:

[Madness]

assumption

Thank you for pointing that out. When dealing with the freedom of a citizen, assumptions should never come into it. How dare you call the lawyer a scumbag! All they did was identify a short-coming in the prosecution case under NZ law. I see you're also making the same "Guilty" statement as Ed based on absolutely no knowledge whatsoever. The person in question was quite obviously not guilty, otherwise a conviction would have been recorded.

:facepalm:

Plenty of assumptions were made in the Bain investigation too and look where that got 'em. You'd think they would have learned a thing or two, but no.

[Katman]

We know you can put the effort in when you want to...



Hey, hot-rods don't grow on trees, you know?

[Erelyes]

All they did was identify a short-coming in the prosecution case under NZ law

Without reading the case, I think that sentance should continue '... and then claim that justifies a not guilty verdict'. At best it's a factor to take into account in sentencing.

Going back to:


I could understand the frustration (and maybe even Ed's baseless attack on the presiding Judge) if the issue was one of nano-seconds.

How's it different?

Do either actually make any material difference to the driver's BAC?

Do you think the lawyer would have fucked around arguing about a few seconds if the driver's BAC was 400mcg/L and the lawyer could argue "could have been 399.5 your honor"?

I stand by my statement of scumbag. All the lawyer did was ignore the intent of the law and decide to get his client off, by arguing that his client getting 1.7% less time than he should have to work out whether he likes needles or not, somehow makes a difference to the fact that he was endangering other people.

It strikes me that we're both arguing the same case (that the legislative system is flawed) in different ways.

PS actually, assumptions will always be made, to varying degrees. We assume that when the BAC meter is calibrated that it stays accurate for X amount of time, no?

[unstuck]

No criminals hiding out in Gorrrre.:shifty::no:

[Katman]

Was that Ed's twin on 3rd Degree tonight?

He came across as equally clueless.

[Madness]

Without reading the case, I think that sentance should continue '... and then claim that justifies a not guilty verdict'. At best it's a factor to take into account in sentencing.

So without reading the case you're convinced the defendant is guilty and their lawyer is a scumbag (I know deep down they all are really). You're a piece of work aren't you?. If it was merely a factor to be taken into account at sentencing then why wasn't a conviction recorded? Because of this thing called "due process" which clearly wasn't met, resulting in all probability that the case was dismissed. The fact that this may have been the first case where a charge was thrown out on this basis means just one thing to me; how many others have been wrongfully convicted under similar circumstances? Scummy himself stated earlier that the law is there for both sides to follow, or break at their peril.


How's it different?

Technically it's not. I said I could understand the frustration if it were nano-seconds, it wouldn't however alter my opinion on the topic. Ten minutes is ten minutes is ten minutes. How is this such a difficult concept to grasp?


Do either actually make any material difference to the driver's BAC?

Do you think the lawyer would have fucked around arguing about a few seconds if the driver's BAC was 400mcg/L and the lawyer could argue "could have been 399.5 your honor"?

Irrelevant. The ten minute period is what lost the popo the case, not the breath alcohol content. The popo fucked up, simple.


I stand by my statement of scumbag. All the lawyer did was ignore the intent of the law and decide to get his client off, by arguing that his client getting 1.7% less time than he should have to work out whether he likes needles or not, somehow makes a difference to the fact that he was endangering other people.

The lawyer paid full attention to the intent of the laws that require due process and accuracy of facts. The popo fucked up, simple. Are you a Jehovas Witness by chance?


It strikes me that we're both arguing the same case (that the legislative system is flawed) in different ways.

Nothing wrong with the law in this case, just the numpties enforcing them.


PS actually, assumptions will always be made, to varying degrees. We assume that when the BAC meter is calibrated that it stays accurate for X amount of time, no?

Breathalysers are calibrated to a standard, no doubt drawn up as a result of scientific research. No assumptions there. Convictions aren't dished out on assumptions, even in Dunedin.

[Mushu]

Without reading the case, I think that sentance should continue '... and then claim that justifies a not guilty verdict'. At best it's a factor to take into account in sentencing.

Going back to:



How's it different?

Do either actually make any material difference to the driver's BAC?

Do you think the lawyer would have fucked around arguing about a few seconds if the driver's BAC was 400mcg/L and the lawyer could argue "could have been 399.5 your honor"?

I stand by my statement of scumbag. All the lawyer did was ignore the intent of the law and decide to get his client off, by arguing that his client getting 1.7% less time than he should have to work out whether he likes needles or not, somehow makes a difference to the fact that he was endangering other people.

It strikes me that we're both arguing the same case (that the legislative system is flawed) in different ways.

PS actually, assumptions will always be made, to varying degrees. We assume that when the BAC meter is calibrated that it stays accurate for X amount of time, no?

You're concentrating on the supposed 10 seconds which was never confirmed. If the cop noted 11:20 - 11:30 it could have possibly been 11:20.59 to 11:30.00 (loosing 10% of time available to make his decision) or even less depending on the accuracy of the clock used, does it display in seconds or even individual minutes (the origin of the computer timing debate of the bain case) police work should require every officer to be able to record time to the second and keep his watch within a certain degree of accuracy to a central clock, alot can happen in 1 minute in the real world. (not a huge request really, what does a cheap digital watch cost these days? $10?)

Police should face heavier punishments for any given offense, if you as the cop who enforces the law can't be expected to stay within it why should I live within the law. They should also be held accountable for things like mishandled evidence.

[Hinny]

You're concentrating on the supposed 10 seconds which was never confirmed. If the cop noted 11:20 - 11:30 it could have possibly been 11:20.59 to 11:30.00 (loosing 10% of time available to make his decision) or even less depending on the accuracy of the clock used, does it display in seconds or even individual minutes (the origin of the computer timing debate of the bain case) police work should require every officer to be able to record time to the second and keep his watch within a certain degree of accuracy to a central clock, alot can happen in 1 minute in the real world. (not a huge request really, what does a cheap digital watch cost these days? $10?).Equally the 10 minutes recorded could have been 10 m 59 sec. Timing accuracies can get a little pedantic as you point out in the Bain case.In that case the defense tried to argue David could not have turned on the computor as he was seen outside the gate at around the time the computor was turned on. (2 mins before ?)To me that puts him on the scene and capable of turning it on. It is not as though he was seen 25 minutes away from home when it was turned on. That would have been a defence.As an experiment to justify this theory I have on several occasions asked a group of people to compare the time on their watches. Twice, with different groups, the time difference has been 20 minutes.I have noticed that a lot of people I have had working for me over the years appear to have timepieces which lose time in the morning and gain time in the afternoon.

[Hinny]

... the pathologist was known to be pedantic ...

His evidence was countered by the defense pathologist they shipped in from Britain.
He gave his evidence and then had to rush back home before he could be cross examined.
He was apparently going to given his evidence by video link (Skype?) but they couldn't establish a connection.
How wrong was that?

Anybody else had a problem connecting to anyone else around the world by Skype?
Suppose it is Britain, which appears to have gone backwards at an alarming degree for the last twenty/thirty years.

[Hinny]

Here's the pic.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1044861_10151486748657001_208762638_n.jpg



Has anybody noticed the marks continue on to his index finger.
As somebody else pointed out the marks do not correspond to the inner edges of the mag which is where any residue would have had to come from to make such sharp edges.

More clutching at straws.

Human bladder capacity now determined to be three to four litres (according to Joe Karam) is still the one that cracks me up the most.
Imagine going to have a leak at the pub with a full bladder.
You would probably still be there by the time some guys came back to have a second slash. lol

[Banditbandit]

Has anybody noticed the marks continue on to his index finger.

The forefinger or the thumb can be used to load the magazine in the way that is suggested - both would leave marks on whichever was used .. if both methods we used in a close time frame then with the hand in a relaxed position they might appear to line up, as is the case in this picture.


As somebody else pointed out the marks do not correspond to the inner edges of the mag which is where any residue would have had to come from to make such sharp edges.

More clutching at straws.

I reproduced such marks on my finger using one of my magazines and loading it in the way suggested - and I had not fired the gun immediately prior to doing that - nor do I have a semi automatic - so there is less chance of flash poweder residue being left on my magazine ...

In the case of a semi automatic weapon I would expect the flash resudue to be mainly concentrated around the front edge of the magazine - close to the bullet - where the flash powder hits as the slide is pushed backwards.

When loading the magaizine it is only necessary to push the shell such that your thumb or forefinger only pass over the front of the magazine ... you do not have to run your finger over the whole magazine ... so the folded over part of the mag top would not necessarily come in contact with the finger or thumb. ANd if you look at the magazine in the picture, the base of the shell protudes above the magazine, which may wel stop the finger (or thumb) coming in contact with the folder over part of the mag ...


Human bladder capacity now determined to be three to four litres (according to Joe Karam)

Yes - while there is a range of authorataticve bladder capacity limits from half a litre to one litre (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielShaw.shtml) Karam's range is still over that amount ...


is still the one that cracks me up the most.
Imagine going to have a leak at the pub with a full bladder.
You would probably still be there by the time some guys came back to have a second slash. lol

Yes .. but what is even more surprising to me is that he had a full bladder ... it is more usual for the muscles to relax at death - and for dead bodies to have urine flowing out of them ... even for dead bodies to excrete faeces ... I would expect Robin to have been liying in a pool of his own urine - the fact that his ballder was full and he was not lying in urine is more surprising than that he killed his family with a ful bladder ...

But hey - life never follows a perfect pattern. This set of murders has quite a few what we might call anomolies and mysteries that may never be resolved ... the mysteries remain whichever person is held to be the killer ...

[Maha]

The left mark on the thumb is curved inwards, thus not matching the straight edges on the magazine...

But anyway...
It a given that David Bain wasn’t the smartest sperm to ever leave the safe confines of his father’s ball bags. There is money to be made in his story. How much could he command in a ‘’Tell All’’ interview? Trouble with that is, he couldn’t conduct such an interview without his ‘other’ voice being present. He is more in kin with a ventriloquist puppet. :wait:

[Katman]

He is more in kin with a ventriloquist puppet. :wait:

Have you got Ed's hand up your arse?

[Maha]

Have you got Ed's hand up your arse?

:weird: I knew as soon as I posted you would be straight in there, you're so transparent, that I really shouldn't take advantage of it as often as I do...:killingme

Did you not notice the waiting icon at the end, all for you Steve. Now if Madness will just chime in, I will get the quinella...:niceone:

[Banditbandit]

The left mark on the thumb is curved inwards, thus not matching the straight edges on the magazine...



The thumb is not a flat surface - nor is it a hard surface - it is not too hard to imagine that pressure on the skin distorted the surface so that a mark made by a hard straight surface would not be a straight line when the skin returned to normal ...

(Or maybe it is too hard for kbers to imagine ...)

[Maha]

The thumb is not a flat surface - nor is it a hard surface - it is not too hard to imagine that pressure on the skin distorted the surface so that a mark made by a hard straight surface would not be a straight line when the skin returned to normal ...

(Or maybe it is too hard for kbers to imagine ...)

Gun expert opinion stated that, the lines are parallel, which clearly they are not.
Grab a small row of paper staples and press it into your thumb for 10 seconds...then post a photo of it, who knows, it may bolster your theory.

[Katman]

:weird: I knew as soon as I posted you would be straight in there, you're so transparent, that I really shouldn't take advantage of it as often as I do...:killingme

Damn, thwarted by superior intellect again.

[unstuck]

Damn, thwarted by superior intellect again.

At least you can admit it.:innocent::whistle:

[Katman]

At least you can admit it.:innocent::whistle:

Hey, if I didn't say it Maha would have.

[unstuck]

Hey, if I didn't say it Maha would have.

:laugh::laugh::2thumbsup

[scumdog]

.



Technically it's not. I said I could understand the frustration if it were nano-seconds, it wouldn't however alter my opinion on the topic. Ten minutes is ten minutes is ten minutes. How is this such a difficult concept to grasp?



Irrelevant. The ten minute period is what lost the popo the case, not the breath alcohol content. The popo fucked up, simple.



The lawyer paid full attention to the intent of the laws that require due process and accuracy of facts. The popo fucked up, simple. Are you a Jehovas Witness by chance?



Nothing wrong with the law in this case, just the numpties enforcing them.
.

Ah well, I admit defeat :weep:- it's time we had infallible cops that never misjudge or make mistakes

Hey, tell ya what Madness, you and your mistake free perfect workmates should join the Police and show us how it's done properly, the job's a doddle (apparently...) so it won't take too long for you and your mates to pick it up and do it perfectly!:2thumbsup.

Or if your not game feel free to point out where we can source similar perfect people - obviously the recruiting officers are making too many mistakes in selecting new cops so no use using THEM...:no:

A shame these perfect cops weren't around at the time of the Bain shoot-'em-up eh?

[Mushu]

Ah well, I admit defeat :weep:- it's time we had infallible cops that never misjudge or make mistakes

Hey, tell ya what Madness, you and your mistake free perfect workmates should join the Police and show us how it's done properly, the job's a doddle (apparently...) so it won't take too long for you and your mates to pick it up and do it perfectly!:2thumbsup.

Or if your not game feel free to point out where we can source similar perfect people - obviously the recruiting officers are making too many mistakes in selecting new cops so no use using THEM...:no:

A shame these perfect cops weren't around at the time of the Bain shoot-'em-up eh?

There's plenty of professions where mistakes are not tolerated, how would you react if you were having an operation and the surgeon hadn't bothered to do part of his job?
I've spent most of my life as a forklift driver, often a slight mistake would have cost me my job.
What about pilots or electricians or truck drivers, if any of these people take their jobs as lightly as or police seem to people die.

Mistakes can happen but the NZ police have a culture of half assing it and not giving a fuck about the consequences, as plainly evident in your own attitude.

You want a suggestion on how to fix this? How about some kind of penalties to the cops that don't do things properly.

[scumdog]

There's plenty of professions where mistakes are not tolerated, how would you react if you were having an operation and the surgeon hadn't bothered to do part of his job?
I've spent most of my life as a forklift driver, often a slight mistake would have cost me my job.
What about pilots or electricians or truck drivers, if any of these people take their jobs as lightly as or police seem to people die.

Mistakes can happen but the NZ police have a culture of half assing it and not giving a fuck about the consequences, as plainly evident in your own attitude.

Who gives a fuck...

[Mushu]

Who gives a fuck...

my point exactly... YOU should give a fuck

[Banditbandit]

Who gives a fuck...

I'll bet you say that to all the speeders you stop ...

[oneofsix]

There's plenty of professions where mistakes are not tolerated, how would you react if you were having an operation and the surgeon hadn't bothered to do part of his job?
I've spent most of my life as a forklift driver, often a slight mistake would have cost me my job.
What about pilots or electricians or truck drivers, if any of these people take their jobs as lightly as or police seem to people die.

Mistakes can happen but the NZ police have a culture of half assing it and not giving a fuck about the consequences, as plainly evident in your own attitude.

+1 and the scary thing about the police is they don't seem to realise or care that they can be ruining innocent peoples lives just as surely as that surgeon or pilot can end their lives.

[scumdog]

I'll bet you say that to all the speeders you stop ...

True - it makes the experience pleasant for both involved and smooths the way...

[Edbear]

True - it makes the experience pleasant for both involved and smooths the way...

Are you telling us you actually stop speeding drivers..? :eek: How could you! Doncha know everyone drives at a speed they know to be safe and therefore should be left alone..? :rolleyes:

[oneofsix]

Are you telling us you actually stop speeding drivers..? :

Well that's his story and his mates will back him up, he also has the radar and lasers to prove it - isn't there something about how us surfs aren't allowed to know how that stuff works? Obey the authoritar

[Clockwork]

The left mark on the thumb is curved inwards, thus not matching the straight edges on the magazine...


I agree but I think the curve matches the edge of the magazine where it rises over the base of the top bullet.

[Edbear]

Madness and Katman must be having their monthly, red galore! :violin:

And yes, I am having a great day, thank you! :niceone:

[scumdog]

Well that's his story and his mates will back him up, he also has the radar and lasers to prove it - isn't there something about how us surfs aren't allowed to know how that stuff works? Obey the authoritar
'Surf' instead of serf - is that a new KB word like crusier and garagre??:confused:

[Smifffy]

'Surf' instead of serf - is that a new KB word like crusier and garagre??:confused:

Or maybe 'boredome'?

[Madness]

Ah well, I admit defeat :weep:- it's time we had infallible cops that never misjudge or make mistakes

Hey, tell ya what Madness, you and your mistake free perfect workmates should join the Police and show us how it's done properly, the job's a doddle (apparently...) so it won't take too long for you and your mates to pick it up and do it perfectly!:2thumbsup.

Or if your not game feel free to point out where we can source similar perfect people - obviously the recruiting officers are making too many mistakes in selecting new cops so no use using THEM...:no:

A shame these perfect cops weren't around at the time of the Bain shoot-'em-up eh?

O.M.Fucking.Gee.

The way you carry on about perfection you'd have thunk we were discussing a popo's inability to split an atom or summat. We're discussing one's ability to tell the time for fucks sake, something I mastered from the age of (from memory) around 6. It's hardly rocket science, yet you come in here carrying on like a kid who's had his ice-cream stolen by the local bully. Tell me Scummy, what's the name of the defence lawyer in question here 'coz I reckon they're pretty fucking onto it and if ever I get wrongfully charged again I don't want to have to fuck about like last time before the pigs finally drop the stack-of-steaming-dog-shit charges.

You're right, it's a shame there weren't any popo with an IQ higher than 30 in Dunedin at the time of the Bain murders. Crime of the fucking century.

Not that you give a fuck, of course ;)

Oh, Maha; - Fuck off.

[Katman]

Madness and Katman must be having their monthly, red galore! :violin:

And yes, I am having a great day, thank you! :niceone:

Is it Maha's turn to have his hand up your arse?

[Katman]

The way you carry on about perfection you'd have thunk we were discussing a popo's inability to split an atom or summat.

Dude, half the time they can't hit who they're aiming for.

They're hardly likely to be able to bisect an atom.

[scissorhands]

you boys need to apologise and shake hands
lifes too short

I too have been treated very poorly at times by the state and popo...

See it for what it is.... and move on.
Bleating on KB will change little
Group think sheeple are in the majority....
Its an evolutionary strength nowadays
Intelligence is not favoured.....
The emperor has no clothes anyone??

nearly ALL COUNTRIES are fascist states

[Drew]

Which is why David Bain has yet to be paid out (compensated) it's increasingly likely that, that wont ever happen. You can keep on arguing your thoughts and voicing an opinion, fact is, four years after Bain was released from prison, he is still an out of work paper boy with an over anxious besty that wants recompense. A good story line for Shortland Street.He has a job actually. He was reported to have called in sick the day after that bulshit aired on TV.


"Technicality" is just another way of saying "popo not doing their job properly", innit?


So this situation obviously isn't exclusive to the particular case you're reffering to, is it? Pretty fucking simple I would have thought, either write down the exact time (including seconds) or allow 11 minutes.

Sheesh, it's a wonder anyone gets convicted in this country.Allowing 11 minutes might also have been cause for the case to be thrown out. What with the cop not taking the law 100% at it's written meaning, which might alter the results of the breath test, outside the required perameters. So instantly, we know that for all your fuckin bulshit mouthing off, you are in no position to question a God damned thing the cops do. But lets carry on anyway, it's been a while since I told a knob gobbling fuckwit what I thought of him.


Discussing incompetence & lack of intelligence amongst our serving popo is hardly off topic I would have thought.

So the concept of minutes and seconds is beyond the cognitive skills of some of your colleagues then? Is this what you're saying by not saying it?The issue was the writing of the procedure, not the actions of the cop.


It's entirely plausible that neither Robin nor David did the killings.No, it's possible but not likely.




I could understand the frustration (and maybe even Ed's baseless attack on the presiding Judge) if the issue was one of nano-seconds. As road-users we're all asked to remember the "three-second rule" so it's hardly rocket science is it?

:facepalm:What's the difference? Legally speaking, there isn't one. A time limit is a time limit, it's adherence is mandatory to protect everyone involved.



Based on what I know about the case Scummy has shared with us (as much as you do) he wasn't "let off in a stupid technicality" at all. The case was thrown out because the popo had failed (once again) to meet the requirements of THE LAW. If my loved ones were killed and the defendant walked under the circumstances Scummy has described I'd be angry as fuck - with the NZ Police.You need to get tested man, I think you might have what is these days called 'a learning disability'. That's polite speak for, 'you're as thick as two short fucking planks cunt'.

The defendant walked, not because the cop failed, but because the cop might have failed to meet the requirements and could not say for certain either way. As a result, a procedure got rewritten.


Oh, cry me a fucking river why don't you!

The job of the popo is to uphold the law by working within the law. If you pillocks can't do that effectively it's either because the law needs re-writing to make it simpler for you cunts to understand or you chumps just aren't up to the task.

I hope the driver in question didn't injure anyone, it would suck if that were the case.

Sharpen up, NZ Police.I just quoted this, so everyone gets another chance to point and laugh at the special kid.


There's plenty of professions where mistakes are not tolerated, how would you react if you were having an operation and the surgeon hadn't bothered to do part of his job?
I've spent most of my life as a forklift driver, often a slight mistake would have cost me my job.
What about pilots or electricians or truck drivers, if any of these people take their jobs as lightly as or police seem to people die.

Mistakes can happen but the NZ police have a culture of half assing it and not giving a fuck about the consequences, as plainly evident in your own attitude.

You want a suggestion on how to fix this? How about some kind of penalties to the cops that don't do things properly.Oh good, another special kid for the fucktard to be friends with. I do so hate to see people lonely.

You might wanna look into the number of medical fuck ups that our country has. It is a very poor record compared to many other countries. Ya know, like wrong limbs being amputated and worse.

Truck drivers? Are you bloody kidding? They don't come fuckin close to following the letter of the law most of the time. As a fork hoist driver, I bet you know it better than most too.

I bet a higher percentage of cops take their job seriously, than those in your profession.


+1 and the scary thing about the police is they don't seem to realise or care that they can be ruining innocent peoples lives just as surely as that surgeon or pilot can end their lives.This sand box is getting full. Three's a crowd though, two of you retards will soon gang up on the third. Best get recruiting.


O.M.Fucking.Gee.

The way you carry on about perfection you'd have thunk we were discussing a popo's inability to split an atom or summat. We're discussing one's ability to tell the time for fucks sake, something I mastered from the age of (from memory) around 6. It's hardly rocket science, yet you come in here carrying on like a kid who's had his ice-cream stolen by the local bully. Tell me Scummy, what's the name of the defence lawyer in question here 'coz I reckon they're pretty fucking onto it and if ever I get wrongfully charged again I don't want to have to fuck about like last time before the pigs finally drop the stack-of-steaming-dog-shit charges.

You're right, it's a shame there weren't any popo with an IQ higher than 30 in Dunedin at the time of the Bain murders. Crime of the fucking century.

Not that you give a fuck, of course ;)

Oh, Maha; - Fuck off.


Dude, half the time they can't hit who they're aiming for.

They're hardly likely to be able to bisect an atom.

If you two want to see an atom split, you are welcome to come to Wellington and I shall demonstrate using nothing more than current items in my kitchen. It's a fuckin shit load easier than dealing with the scum of our country on a daily basis, I'm sure of that much.

[Drew]

I too have been treated very poorly at times by the state and popo...

Did they judge you, before they knew you?

[Katman]

If you two want to see an atom split, you are welcome to come to Wellington and I shall demonstrate using nothing more than current items in my kitchen. It's a fuckin shit load easier than dealing with the scum of our country on a daily basis, I'm sure of that much.

Drew Rutherford - you're amazing.

:love:

[Drew]

Drew Rutherford - you're amazing.Did you pay attention during science, at school? They had schools way back when you were a lad didn't they ol' fella?

Most attention grabbing atom splitting I can think of, is dropping sodium in water. But nearly any violent chemical reaction is caused by the splitting of atoms.

It is neither hard, or uncommon.

[Katman]

Did you pay attention during science, at school? They had schools way back when you were a lad didn't they ol' fella?

Most attention grabbing atom splitting I can think of, is dropping sodium in water. But nearly any violent chemical reaction is caused by the splitting of atoms.

It is neither hard, or uncommon.

That's splitting a molecule Drew - not an atom.

[Drew]

That's splitting a molecule Drew - not an atom.I have overstated. It is not "most" violent chemical reactions.

It is however possible to split atoms by simply combining chemicals.

To split a hydrogen atom, introduce an equal number of them to helium atoms. Electrons like to be balanced by neutrons. Hydrogen has an uneven electron/neutron bias, so when you introduce it to helium the electron fucks off (splits from the atom) to find a negative mate.

This can be mimicked using chemicals found in home cleaners.

[Katman]

I have overstated. It is not "most" violent chemical reactions.

It is however possible to split atoms by simply combining chemicals.

To split a hydrogen atom, introduce an equal number of them to helium atoms. Electrons like to be balanced by neutrons. Hydrogen has an uneven electron/neutron bias, so when you introduce it to helium the electron fucks off (splits from the atom) to find a negative mate.

This can be mimicked using chemicals found in home cleaners.

You sound confused Drew.

[scumdog]

I have overstated. It is not "most" violent chemical reactions.

It is however possible to split atoms by simply combining chemicals.

To split a hydrogen atom, introduce an equal number of them to helium atoms. Electrons like to be balanced by neutrons. Hydrogen has an uneven electron/neutron bias, so when you introduce it to helium the electron fucks off (splits from the atom) to find a negative mate.

This can be mimicked using chemicals found in home cleaners.

Wow, about the most off-topic topic I have read for a long time, well done!:2thumbsup:2thumbsup

I envy your skills my man, a credit to you!

[Smifffy]

Whatever happened to the harsher sentences that the govt were promising for most violent chemical reactions?


I have overstated. It is not "most" violent chemical reactions.

It is however possible to split atoms by simply combining chemicals.

To split a hydrogen atom, introduce an equal number of them to helium atoms. Electrons like to be balanced by neutrons. Hydrogen has an uneven electron/neutron bias, so when you introduce it to helium the electron fucks off (splits from the atom) to find a negative mate.

This can be mimicked using chemicals found in home cleaners.

[Drew]

You sound confused Drew.Not at all. I just went and quickly did a bit of a refresher on what chemicals can be made to react at an atomic level. Been a while since I did school C science too ya know.

[scumdog]

Not at all. I just went and quickly did a bit of a refresher on what chemicals can be made to react at an atomic level. Been a while since I did school C science too ya know.

School C?
SHeesh, you're older than I thought - but so immature, what's your secret??:blink:

[Drew]

Wow, about the most off-topic topic I have read for a long time, well done!:2thumbsup:2thumbsup

I envy your skills my man, a credit to you!Sometimes it's just fun, to run with the first thing that might be of interest, in a boring thread for about ten bloody pages.

[Katman]

Not at all. I just went and quickly did a bit of a refresher on what chemicals can be made to react at an atomic level. Been a while since I did school C science too ya know.

Yes Drew, they can be made to react.

You're not actually splitting them.

[Drew]

School C?
SHeesh, you're older than I thought - but so immature, what's your secret??:blink:Why do you give a fuck?

[scumdog]

Why do you give a fuck?

I give a fuck? Moi?:eek5:

[Drew]

Yes Drew, they can be made to react.

You're not actually splitting them.

Careful dude, it's possible that I am not talking through a hole in my arse for once. P'raps you should go and do some research.

[Drew]

I give a fuck? Moi?:eek5:We all know you do. You secretly cry yourself to sleep every night, at the ramblings of us on here.

[Katman]

Careful dude, it's possible that I am not talking through a hole in my arse for once.

Possible - but not very likely.

:bleh:

[scissorhands]

You need to get tested man, I think you might have what is these days called 'a learning disability'. That's polite speak for, 'you're as thick as two short fucking planks cunt'.

I just quoted this, so everyone gets another chance to point and laugh at the special kid.

Oh good, another special kid for the fucktard to be friends with. I do so hate to see people lonely.

You might wanna look into the number of medical fuck ups that our country has. It is a very poor record compared to many other countries. Ya know, like wrong limbs being amputated and worse.


This sand box is getting full. Three's a crowd though, two of you retards will soon gang up on the third. Best get recruiting.



stop being a cunt dickface
you want to represent bikers? stop denigrating others in such an abhorrent manner
many peeps with a 'learning disorder' are way smarter than you


Did they judge you, before they knew you?

I was bullied by cops for my autistic difference, in the same manner as you

If a judge got involved, and I had video evidence, I know who would come out looking like an asshole.
Asshole

[Madness]

Allowing 11 minutes might also have been cause for the case to be thrown out. What with the cop not taking the law 100% at it's written meaning, which might alter the results of the breath test, outside the required perameters. So instantly, we know that for all your fuckin bulshit mouthing off, you are in no position to question a God damned thing the cops do. But lets carry on anyway, it's been a while since I told a knob gobbling fuckwit what I thought of him.

I'm perfectly entitled to question what the popo does, as is every other taxpayer. Scummy posted up the little gem of a story, no doubt expecting discussion but probably surprised at how many posters think it's unacceptable performance on the part of our "professional police force". Oh, fuck your mother.


The issue was the writing of the procedure, not the actions of the cop.

Who do you think wrote the procedure Drew? A fucking police officer, that'll be who. Even if procedures are clearly established, it's up to police management to ensure procedures are being maintained and procedures followed. Big fucking fail.


What's the difference? Legally speaking, there isn't one. A time limit is a time limit, it's adherence is mandatory to protect everyone involved.

I'm glad we agree on something. Have you taken your Ritalin today?


You need to get tested man, I think you might have what is these days called 'a learning disability'. That's polite speak for, 'you're as thick as two short fucking planks cunt'.

You married a trannie. ;)


The defendant walked, not because the cop failed, but because the cop might have failed to meet the requirements and could not say for certain either way. As a result, a procedure got rewritten.

Systematic failure at every level. Unacceptable. Nice to think it's be sorted out though, I hate pissed drivers.


I just quoted this, so everyone gets another chance to point and laugh at the special kid.

You've ridden a bucket.


It's a fuckin shit load easier than dealing with the scum of our country on a daily basis, I'm sure of that much.

When are you signing up?

[scissorhands]

He has a job actually. He was reported to have called in sick the day after that bulshit aired on TV.



Allowing 11 minutes might also have been cause for the case to be thrown out. What with the cop not taking the law 100% at it's written meaning, which might alter the results of the breath test, outside the required perameters. So instantly, we know that for all your fuckin bulshit mouthing off, you are in no position to question a God damned thing the cops do. But lets carry on anyway, it's been a while since I told a knob gobbling fuckwit what I thought of him.

The issue was the writing of the procedure, not the actions of the cop.

No, it's possible but not likely.

What's the difference? Legally speaking, there isn't one. A time limit is a time limit, it's adherence is mandatory to protect everyone involved.

You need to get tested man, I think you might have what is these days called 'a learning disability'. That's polite speak for, 'you're as thick as two short fucking planks cunt'.

The defendant walked, not because the cop failed, but because the cop might have failed to meet the requirements and could not say for certain either way. As a result, a procedure got rewritten.

I just quoted this, so everyone gets another chance to point and laugh at the special kid.

Oh good, another special kid for the fucktard to be friends with. I do so hate to see people lonely.

You might wanna look into the number of medical fuck ups that our country has. It is a very poor record compared to many other countries. Ya know, like wrong limbs being amputated and worse.

Truck drivers? Are you bloody kidding? They don't come fuckin close to following the letter of the law most of the time. As a fork hoist driver, I bet you know it better than most too.

I bet a higher percentage of cops take their job seriously, than those in your profession.

This sand box is getting full. Three's a crowd though, two of you retards will soon gang up on the third. Best get recruiting.





If you two want to see an atom split, you are welcome to come to Wellington and I shall demonstrate using nothing more than current items in my kitchen. It's a fuckin shit load easier than dealing with the scum of our country on a daily basis, I'm sure of that much.

Dealing with you on a daily basis sounds a real fucken chore
Stop telling yourself your not as retarded
as you appear to others with more brains than you

[Drew]

stop being a cunt dickface
you want to represent bikers? stop denigrating others in such an abhorrent manner
many peeps with a 'learning disorder' are way smarter than you



I was bullied by cops for my autistic difference, in the same manner as you

If a judge got involved, and I had video evidence, I know who would come out looking like an asshole.
AssholeThe last comment of mine that you quoted, was meant as a tongue in cheek joke. I don't think I was bullying you, since you yourself have made "retard" jokes in a thread I was posting in. The earlier was all meant to piss this other fuckwit off, and had nout to do with you.

So don't play the fuckin martyr with me, 'less you wanna try and be consistent about it bitch!

I'm sure I can imagine you have had trouble with all manner of people due to your social differences, singling cops out is hypocritical at fucken BEST.


I'm perfectly entitled to question what the popo does, as is every other taxpayer. Scummy posted up the little gem of a story, no doubt expecting discussion but probably surprised at how many posters think it's unacceptable performance on the part of our "professional police force". Oh, fuck your mother.The implication being, that there are professions out there in which humans can perform flawlessly. There are not!




Who do you think wrote the procedure Drew? A fucking police officer, that'll be who. Even if procedures are clearly established, it's up to police management to ensure procedures are being maintained and procedures followed. Big fucking fail.A cop at a much higher level than the poor bastard who went to the trouble of getting the drunk driver off the road, who was made to walk out of the courtroom behind a proper cunt on cloud nine for getting away with something he knew he did wrong.




I'm glad we agree on something. Have you taken your Ritalin today?I fucken wish, used to love stealing my younger brothers!




You married a trannie. ;)Let's leave mine and your mothers relationship out of this!




Systematic failure at every level. Unacceptable. Nice to think it's be sorted out though, I hate pissed drivers.You small minded prick. Most flawed systems in every industry, don't get changed until there is issue with them. In what fuckin world is everything spot on from the get go?




You've ridden a bucket.But at the time of starting, I thought of a real bike.




When are you signing up?The cops wouldn't have the likes of me, I wouldn't get medical/physical clearance, and I'd shoot too many cunts for it to be covered up by blaming Al-Qaeda!

[Madness]

The implication being, that there are professions out there in which humans can perform flawlessly. There are not!

Come on Drew, even you can tell the fucking time & write it down on a piece of paper.


A cop at a much higher level than the poor bastard who went to the trouble of getting the drunk driver off the road, who was made to walk out of the courtroom behind a proper cunt on cloud nine for getting away with something he knew he did wrong.

None of my comments have been directed at an individual member of te popo. Hate the game, not the player.


Let's leave mine and your mothers relationship out of this!

Another one who likes 'em dead eh?


You small minded prick. Most flawed systems in every industry, don't get changed until there is issue with them. In what fuckin world is everything spot on from the get go?

You small minded prick, like drink driving laws came in last week or summat. There's a whole building in Thorndon full of popo white-collar types, has been for decades. With all the bureaucratic paper-shuffling, reviews and committees, you'd think they would have had this little time-keeping issue sorted by the 1940's.


But at the time of starting, I thought of a real bike.

Only because you had yet to discover lawnmowers. You sick bastard.

[scissorhands]

So don't play the fuckin martyr with me, 'less you wanna try and be consistent about it bitch!


Fair call, I got you started eh?
I'll take the rap for that

[Drew]

Only because you had yet to discover lawnmowers. You sick bastard.Woah woah woah, let's not get nasty here!

[Mushu]

Did you pay attention during science, at school? They had schools way back when you were a lad didn't they ol' fella?

Most attention grabbing atom splitting I can think of, is dropping sodium in water. But nearly any violent chemical reaction is caused by the splitting of atoms.

It is neither hard, or uncommon.

That is a chemical reaction which involves an exchange of electrons. This is not splitting an atom.
Splitting atoms is nuclear fission which involves splitting the nucleus I suggest you do some further 'refresher' research. But I welcome you to try it in your kitchen, the radiation will be good for you :)

As far as your earlier comments, doctors etc that fuck up at work have to answer for their mistakes, this doesn't seem to be true of the police at all. And you have obviously never worked anywhere in the transport industry, truck drivers are responsible for any mistakes they make, responsible to the law for their driving, responsible to the customer to deliver undamaged goods (or they must replace the goods themselves) on time (often the time responsibility is the most important, it can be the only way to get a decent pay for the day).

Police who don't take their jobs seriously have no one to answer to, and for some reason the general public seem to be fine with that.

[Drew]

That is a chemical reaction which involves an exchange of electrons. This is not splitting an atom.
Splitting atoms is nuclear fission which involves splitting the nucleus I suggest you do some further 'refresher' research. But I welcome you to try it in your kitchen, the radiation will be good for you :)

As far as your earlier comments, doctors etc that fuck up at work have to answer for their mistakes, this doesn't seem to be true of the police at all. And you have obviously never worked anywhere in the transport industry, truck drivers are responsible for any mistakes they make, responsible to the law for their driving, responsible to the customer to deliver undamaged goods (or they must replace the goods themselves) on time (often the time responsibility is the most important, it can be the only way to get a decent pay for the day).

Police who don't take their jobs seriously have no one to answer to, and for some reason the general public seem to be fine with that.Splitting molecules is splitting atoms=nuclear fission. Tell me, why didn't Rutherford die of radiation poisoning?

You don't think cops answer for their mistakes? :killingme

They get bloody crucified by the media, inquiries are opened, and the public certainly don't seem to be fine with it from where I sit.
There are nearly 9,000 sworn police officers in New Zealand as of last year. The media get hold of the worst fuck ups and spin that to the greatest sensation they can. With a large number like that, it doesn't happen that often.

Stands to reason that the minor fuck ups are dealt with by the higher ups to avoid this happening as much as possible.

We see very little of the good work the five oh do, on the news or in the papers really. I recall seeing that in Wellington last week they have closed down a number of serious car conversion workshops. That's AWESOME.

Also, I might know of people that take recreational "A" class drugs from time to time. Poor buggers can't get a decent gram of speed/tab of E, to save themselves for a while now. Who's doing is that, if the cops are getting it wrong all the time?

[Drew]

Fair call, I got you started eh?
I'll take the rap for thatFigured you could accept it with humor, yes. I was raised in a family with a disabled brother, I certainly don't have any prejudice toward the disabled at any level.

[Madness]

Splitting molecules is splitting atoms=nuclear fission. Tell me, why didn't Rutherford die of radiation poisoning?

You don't think cops answer for their mistakes? :killingme

They get bloody crucified by the media, inquiries are opened, and the public certainly don't seem to be fine with it from where I sit.
There are nearly 9,000 sworn police officers in New Zealand as of last year. The media get hold of the worst fuck ups and spin that to the greatest sensation they can. With a large number like that, it doesn't happen that often.

Stands to reason that the minor fuck ups are dealt with by the higher ups to avoid this happening as much as possible.

We see very little of the good work the five oh do, on the news or in the papers really. I recall seeing that in Wellington last week they have closed down a number of serious car conversion workshops. That's AWESOME.

Also, I might know of people that take recreational "A" class drugs from time to time. Poor buggers can't get a decent gram of speed/tab of E, to save themselves for a while now. Who's doing is that, if the cops are getting it wrong all the time?

If the media beat the popo senseless every time the popo fuck up then why is this the first time most of us have read about the alleged pissed driver getting off charges due to telling time-101?

[Drew]

If the media beat the popo senseless every time the popo fuck up then why is this the first time most of us have read about the alleged pissed driver getting off charges due to telling time-101?

Don't be a fuckin pedant.

[Paul in NZ]

This thread is getting enough to make someone want to commit mass murder.....

[Drew]

This thread is getting enough to make someone want to commit mass murder.....

We each do what we must.

[scissorhands]

Figured you could accept it with humor, yes. I was raised in a family with a disabled brother, I certainly don't have any prejudice toward the disabled at any level.


No worries bro.
I figured all that, but got stuck into you anyhows as you now being a higher-up yourself...

cannot afford to be misconstrued by others:Oops:

If your going to stand on a podium for others, you need to watch your p's and q's

I'm a nobody, and use the R word in a slightly different context to you, and [try to] self imply in the same post [as you now] to ameliorate the impact of the derogatory term

But yeah I may be [appear] offensive too and encourage others so thanks for the heads up

Its a slippery slope anyone in a authoritarian position cannot afford to stand on

have you got an agent?

[scissorhands]

If the media beat the popo senseless every time the popo fuck up then why is this the first time most of us have read about the alleged pissed driver getting off charges due to telling time-101?

Just spray and walk away
Ok, you went through shit so did I
Let it go, it serves nothing

maybe we should bag the krauts and the nips?
move on

Dumbasses are fucking everywhere
Dont let them spoil your day!

[unstuck]

Dumbasses are fucking everywhere
Dont let them spoil your day!

Very good advice.:Punk::Punk:

[scumdog]

[QUOTE=Mushu;1130574077]And you have obviously never worked anywhere in the transport industry, truck drivers are responsible for any mistakes they make, responsible to the law for their driving, responsible to the customer to deliver undamaged goods (or they must replace the goods themselves) on time (often the time responsibility is the most important, it can be the only way to get a decent pay for the day).

[/with QUOTE]

Only in freakin' la-la land...

[Madness]

Don't be a fuckin pedant.

So where's the accountability then Drew? There is none, end of story.

[Maha]

Several of you dropkicks should submit your personal findings to the defence council of this case, there maybe a book deal it for ya, fictional and it wont be best seller, but a book deal non the less.




:wait:

[scissorhands]

Several of you arselicks should submit your personal findings to the prosecution of this case, there maybe a book deal it for ya, fictional and it wont be best seller, but a book deal non the less.




:wait:

fixed that for you:bleh:

[Maha]

fixed that for you:bleh:

Either way, fact is, the status quo will remain because, it seems that's how the former accused likes it, in a non vocal sort of way, if you know what I mean. :msn-wink:

PS: end of this thread for me now:baby:
:sleep:

[Crasherfromwayback]

PS: end of this thread for me now:baby:
:sleep:

Miss you!!! :bleh:

[Mushu]

Splitting molecules is splitting atoms=nuclear fission. Tell me, why didn't Rutherford die of radiation poisoning?

You don't think cops answer for their mistakes? :killingme

They get bloody crucified by the media, inquiries are opened, and the public certainly don't seem to be fine with it from where I sit.
There are nearly 9,000 sworn police officers in New Zealand as of last year. The media get hold of the worst fuck ups and spin that to the greatest sensation they can. With a large number like that, it doesn't happen that often.

Stands to reason that the minor fuck ups are dealt with by the higher ups to avoid this happening as much as possible.

We see very little of the good work the five oh do, on the news or in the papers really. I recall seeing that in Wellington last week they have closed down a number of serious car conversion workshops. That's AWESOME.

Also, I might know of people that take recreational "A" class drugs from time to time. Poor buggers can't get a decent gram of speed/tab of E, to save themselves for a while now. Who's doing is that, if the cops are getting it wrong all the time?

Are you suggesting that if I put baking soda and vinegar together I will get a nuclear reaction? You are an idiot.
Chemical reactions create new compounds, nuclear fission creates new elements, there is a huge difference.

Tell me, if mistakes made by the cops are so heavily scrutinized why is it scumdogs example (which I assume is relatively recent) is about timekeeping issues which is also a major factor in the bain case almost 20 years ago. It seems pretty easy to have every cop carry an accurate watch and to record seconds where it makes a difference as in both those examples. My watch (a basic g shock) picks up about 1 minute a year meaning I would only have to adjust it once every 2 months to keep it within 10 seconds accuracy (which I think would be quite acceptable)

[scumdog]

Tell me, if mistakes made by the cops are so heavily scrutinized why is it scumdogs example (which I assume is relatively recent) is about timekeeping issues which is also a major factor in the bain case almost 20 years ago. It seems pretty easy to have every cop carry an accurate watch and to record seconds where it makes a difference as in both those examples.

Not recent.
15+ years ago

No, not me

And next thing we'd need to carry certified watches, checked for accuracy for +- a milli-second.

[Madness]

Did you cunts hear something? A faint, muffled noise of little significance...


PS: end of this thread for me now :baby:

[scumdog]

[QUOTE=Madness;1130574361]Did you cunts hear something? A faint, muffled noise of little significance...[/QUOTE[LIST=1]

Your brain farted???:blink::whistle:

[Katman]

Several of you dropkicks should submit your personal findings to the defence council of this case, there maybe a book deal it for ya, fictional and it wont be best seller, but a book deal non the less.


Anne could read you a chapter each night before she tucks you into bed.

[scissorhands]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YACQDbvOURI

[Mushu]

Not recent.
15+ years ago

No, not me

And next thing we'd need to carry certified watches, checked for accuracy for +- a milli-second.

I'll make a further assumption based on this post that there has been no change in procedure regarding timekeeping

And yes I believe cops should carry half decent watches, there should be some degree of accuracy required and a central clock they can use to check their watches (according to the bain literature, the detective manual current in 1994 required each station to maintain a clock set to telecom time)

[scissorhands]

and for the third time in this thread I ask:

why was the computer keyboard not dusted for prints???

[Katman]

and for the third time in this thread I ask:

why was the computer keyboard not dusted for prints???

Maybe it was and it didn't fit the prosecution's case.

:shutup:

[Mushu]

and for the third time in this thread I ask:

why was the computer keyboard not dusted for prints???

Probably being that it was the family computer and would likely have had the prints of both David and Robin on it anyway

[scissorhands]

Maybe it was and it didn't fit the prosecution's case.

:shutup:

thats what I thought too....

[scissorhands]

Probably being that it was the family computer and would likely have had the prints of both David and Robin on it anyway

A key being a small area of surface, I would imagine that the last print would be more obvious, being all on top of each other

I may be wrong, but I would hazard keyboard fingerprint evidence to be strong evidence...

[Banditbandit]

Probably being that it was the family computer and would likely have had the prints of both David and Robin on it anyway

And maybe because computer keyboards are no good for fingerprints?

First of all, put one of your fingrs on the key and see which part of the surface area actually touches the keys .. for me it is the tips of my fingers .. whoch would not give any sort of print that is acceptable for evidence ..

And second, many keys are not flat surfaces - making it even less likely that you get evidential prints from a keyboard ...

[scissorhands]

the sides and top of a mouse yield complete prints...

[Drew]

Are you suggesting that if I put baking soda and vinegar together I will get a nuclear reaction? You are an idiot.
Chemical reactions create new compounds, nuclear fission creates new elements, there is a huge difference.

Tell me, if mistakes made by the cops are so heavily scrutinized why is it scumdogs example (which I assume is relatively recent) is about timekeeping issues which is also a major factor in the bain case almost 20 years ago. It seems pretty easy to have every cop carry an accurate watch and to record seconds where it makes a difference as in both those examples. My watch (a basic g shock) picks up about 1 minute a year meaning I would only have to adjust it once every 2 months to keep it within 10 seconds accuracy (which I think would be quite acceptable)I did amend my post stating that all violent chemical reactions were atoms splitting. Yes, I am an idiot.

I understood Scumdog's example to be quite historical.

The cop's watches aren't in any way relevant to the Bain case. Witnesses were the ones giving times, not the five oh.

The accuracy of the fucking watch, was never the issue in the drink driving case either. A lawyer managed to convince a judge, that the time was not RECORDED accurately enough, as per the regulations. It was only a possibility that the correct amount of time was not adhered, by up to a maximum of 1m58s by my reckoning.

In this perfect world you want the cops to live, (which would make them all redundant I might bloody add), how do they all synchronise their watches? Would it need to be law that anyone giving evidence in a case must have their watch synchronised also?

I'm happy that you are happy with your watch, good buying on your part.:clap:

[Katman]

I just picked up a book today at the local Book Fair called 'Bain and Beyond' by Joe Karam.

Here's what it says on the back.....

Like most New Zealanders Joe Karam believed that all citizens would be treated fairly and equally under the law, and that the system was essentially just and fair. What he discovered in fact was a labyrinth of politics, personal egos and a court system almost designed to thwart justice.

I shall keep you informed.

[Drew]

I hadn't realised there was a whole extra page when I wrote my last post. It had all been said already.
Maybe it was and it didn't fit the prosecution's case.

:shutup:Furthering the need for conspiracy, (are you getting a hardon yet?), since the legal system we have requires full disclosure from both prosecutors, and defence lawyers prior to anything being allowed in court.


thats what I thought too....If I didn't know the world was full of morons without any cerebral impairment, I'd be making more jokes right now.

[Edbear]

I did amend my post stating that all violent chemical reactions were atoms splitting. Yes, I am an idiot.

I understood Scumdog's example to be quite historical.

The cop's watches aren't in any way relevant to the Bain case. Witnesses were the ones giving times, not the five oh.

The accuracy of the fucking watch, was never the issue in the drink driving case either. A lawyer managed to convince a judge, that the time was not RECORDED accurately enough, as per the regulations. It was only a possibility that the correct amount of time was not adhered, by up to a maximum of 1m58s by my reckoning.

In this perfect world you want the cops to live, (which would make them all redundant I might bloody add), how do they all synchronise their watches? Would it need to be law that anyone giving evidence in a case must have their watch synchronised also?

I'm happy that you are happy with your watch, good buying on your part.:clap:

The cop was asked an impossible question. How can anyone be 100% certain his timing was perfectly accurate? What is 10sec in reality? The judge should have reprimanded the defense lawyer for being an idiot...

[Drew]

I shall keep you informed.Please don't...Seriously.

Some of us have read it already, and even you are going to have to admit it's piss poorly written, with a very fucken clear bias.

The other book, 'The Mask Of Sanity' by James McNeish, is much better written, edited, and less biased if not unbiased. I have only skimmed a couple of chapters though to tell the truth, but it'd need to change fairly drastically in tone to make my assessment wrong.

[Drew]

The judge should have reprimanded the defense lawyer for being an idiot...Here, we are at odds.

If a lawyer of mine thought of the same argument, and did not try it or at least talk to me about it, I would be fucken wild.

Zealous Representation

Another of the three most significant ethical obligations of a defense attorney to his client is zealous representation. Zealous representation means that a lawyer has a professional and ethical obligation to use all legal means available to protect the rights and advance the interests of his client.




Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6142049_three-ethical-obligations-defense-attorney.html#ixzz2Y8Y9RLFP


He must do what he legally can, in my defense. The Lawyer nor the judge had any choice. The writers of the procedure are the only ones at fault...And the cunt driving pissed.

[Mushu]

I did amend my post stating that all violent chemical reactions were atoms splitting. Yes, I am an idiot.

I understood Scumdog's example to be quite historical.

The cop's watches aren't in any way relevant to the Bain case. Witnesses were the ones giving times, not the five oh.

The accuracy of the fucking watch, was never the issue in the drink driving case either. A lawyer managed to convince a judge, that the time was not RECORDED accurately enough, as per the regulations. It was only a possibility that the correct amount of time was not adhered, by up to a maximum of 1m58s by my reckoning.

In this perfect world you want the cops to live, (which would make them all redundant I might bloody add), how do they all synchronise their watches? Would it need to be law that anyone giving evidence in a case must have their watch synchronised also?

I'm happy that you are happy with your watch, good buying on your part.:clap:

Still an idiot, atoms exchange electrons all the time, they are not splitting when they do so.

The cops watches are major factors in the bain case, given witnesses had their clocks checked for accuracy by the cops watches and the computer was also checked in relation to a cops watch (both different watches, the computer was tested with a watch without a second hand and with markings in 5 minute increments)

Both cases show the need for cops to be able to accurately measure time, to the nearest 5 minutes is not nearly close enough.

In my 'perfect world' the police would maintain a clock set to telecom time in every station and the cops would be required to check their watches against this at a pre-determined interval (which would be based on the accuracy of the watch)

The police check witnesses clocks for accuracy when it is relevant to their testimony.

I am happy with my watch, but I pointed it out to illustrate that even a relatively cheap watch can be sufficiently accurate.

[Crasherfromwayback]

How can anyone be 100% certain his timing was perfectly accurate? .

Easy obviously. Same way you can say it's a *fact* that Robin Bain didn't do it. Just lie.

[Banditbandit]

Robin Bain may have killed Scott Guy !!!!


http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/new-evidence-implicates-robin-bain-in-murder-of-scott-guy/

[Mushu]

the sides and top of a mouse yield complete prints...

There is no guarantee the person who wrote the message used the mouse at all, a mouse is in most cases unnecessary with a computer, they mostly exist for convenience. Especially back in 94 when computers were more basic than they are now.

[Banditbandit]

The cop was asked an impossible question. How can anyone be 100% certain his timing was perfectly accurate? What is 10sec in reality? The judge should have reprimanded the defense lawyer for being an idiot...

Fuck .. if judges did that we would have no defence lawyers in this country ...

[Madness]

Robin Bain may have killed Scott Guy !!!!


http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/new-evidence-implicates-robin-bain-in-murder-of-scott-guy/

Congratulations, you're the third to post that in this thread (at least).

[scumdog]

Here, we are at odds.

If a lawyer of mine thought of the same argument, and did not try it or at least talk to me about it, I would be fucken wild.

Zealous Representation
[LIST]
Another of the three most significant ethical obligations of a defense attorney to his client is zealous representation. Zealous representation means that a lawyer has a professional and ethical obligation to use all legal means available to protect the rights and advance the interests of his client.



Like slagging off a dead victim (Sophie Elliot) to boost their clients image (Clayton the Egotistical Killer)

[Banditbandit]

Congratulations, you're the third to post that in this thread (at least).

Oh .. sorry .. I haven't been completely following this thread .. I gave up on it many days ago .. just drop in now and then for a laff ...

[Madness]

Oh .. sorry .. I haven't been completely following this thread .. I gave up on it many days ago .. just drop in now and then for a laff ...

No need to apologise at all. I didn't follow if between pages (approximately) 10 and 25 as it was all a bit boring. I've been participating more recently as the practice of winding up drongos has proved to be highly entertaining, thanks Scummy & Drew.

[Edbear]

Here, we are at odds.

If a lawyer of mine thought of the same argument, and did not try it or at least talk to me about it, I would be fucken wild.

[He must do what he legally can, in my defense. The Lawyer nor the judge had any choice. The writers of the procedure are the only ones at fault...And the cunt driving pissed.

I understand that, but where is the justice if such minute can be used successfully to get an offender off such a serious charge? If someone is proven guilty, then the defense should be to argue mitigating circumstances in an effort to reduce the punishment or something. This offender got away scott free with an act that could have, and often does, kill and maim innocent people.


Easy obviously. Same way you can say it's a *fact* that Robin Bain didn't do it. Just lie.

Pfft! The incontrovertible evidence proves Robin could not be the killer. That dictionary defined evidence as proof of fact. If Robin didn't do it is a fact. Get off your high horse for a minute. Accusing me of lying is stupid.

[Mushu]

Pfft! The incontrovertible evidence proves Robin could not be the killer. That dictionary defined evidence as proof of fact. If Robin didn't do it is a fact. Get off your high horse for a minute. Accusing me of lying is stupid.

There us no incontrovertible evidence that Robin is innocent, if there were David would still be in prison, the privy council would have never even recommended a retrial if that were the case.

[Edbear]

There us no incontrovertible evidence that Robin is innocent, if there were David would still be in prison, the privy council would have never even recommended a retrial if that were the case.

Not even the judges or juries who heard all of the evidence ever considered Robin a likely suspect. And as has been brought out, the jurors who found the not guilty verdict, did not consider David innocent.

David would not still be in prison, having served his sentnce. All this is in retrospect.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Get off your high horse for a minute. Accusing me of lying is stupid.

You struggled with the word *fact*. Lets see how you go with the word *hypocrisy*.

[Edbear]

You struggled with the word *fact*. Lets see how you go with the word *hypocrisy*.

Whatever, Pete...

[Madness]

I understand that, but where is the justice if such minute can be used successfully to get an offender off such a serious charge? If someone is proven guilty, then the defense should be to argue mitigating circumstances in an effort to reduce the punishment or something. This offender got away scott free with an act that could have, and often does, kill and maim innocent people.

For someone who regularly professes to know an awful lot about an awful lot you're sure making yourself look like even more of an idiot than you normally do Ed. To be proven guilty of a crime the prosecution must demonstrate if required that due process has been followed. It had not in the case being discussed, which means all the evidence in the world amounted to jack shit.

Sharpen up.

[Edbear]

For someone who regularly professes to know an awful lot about an awful lot you're sure making yourself look like even more of an idiot than you normally do Ed. To be proven guilty of a crime the prosecution must demonstrate if required that due process has been followed. It had not in the case being discussed, which means all the evidence in the world amounted to jack shit.

Sharpen up.

Yeah, whatever... :yawn:

[Crasherfromwayback]

. That dictionary defined evidence as proof of fact. *If* Robin didn't do it is a fact..

Therin lies your probleem Ed. *IF* Robin didn't do it. We have no *Proof* whatsoever to *Prove* he didn't. Hence...it's not a *fact* he didn't. Get it now?

[Katman]

If Robin didn't do it is a fact.

Ed, that sentence doesn't even make any sense.

Was that Maha's hand up your arse?

[Drew]

I have done all I can, to turn this thread into something entertaining for everyone. But it seems to have been in vane, I am a failure:wait:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I have done all I can, to turn this thread into something entertaining for everyone. But it seems to have been in vane, I am a failure:wait:

Vain Old Boy.

[Drew]

Vain Old Boy.Dammit:o...

[Madness]

I am a failure.

Actually I thought the bit about splitting atoms in your kitchen with household chemicals was mildly amusing, if not ridiculously stupid.

[Edbear]

Therin lies your probleem Ed. *IF* Robin didn't do it. We have no *Proof* whatsoever to *Prove* he didn't. Hence...it's not a *fact* he didn't. Get it now?

The evidence that is conclusive is that no blood from any of the victims was on Robin or his clothing. Not possible in the circumstances if he was the killer. No gunpowder residue was on him, also not possible were he the killer. No evidence of any kind to allow him to have been in any of the victims rooms. Not possible were he the killer. His prints were not on the rifle. If he was the last person to have used it, the number of shots fired and the variety of angles and holds would have left clear prints in several areas of the weapon and the magazines. These are facts that specifically clear Robin Bain and prove his innocence, ergo, it is a fact that Robin did not do it.

No other evidence is even required and there is no evidence of any kind pointing to him. The above automatically negates any speculation and conjecture, which is all the defence had anyway.


I have done all I can, to turn this thread into something entertaining for everyone. But it seems to have been in vane, I am a failure:wait:

:msn-wink:I think you mean vain...

[Mushu]

Not even the judges or juries who heard all of the evidence ever considered Robin a likely suspect. And as has been brought out, the jurors who found the not guilty verdict, did not consider David innocent.

David would not still be in prison, having served his sentnce. All this is in retrospect.

What was this incontrovertible evidence and how did I, Justice Binnie, the privy council and David Bains defence all miss it? How is it retrospect, did this evidence of yours come to light after the trial? I must have missed that episode of 3rd degree

Also the sentence quoted above by katman and crasher makes no sense, it's not fact until it is proven.

[Katman]

His prints were not on the rifle.

There were many prints on the rifle that were unidentifiable.

That does not mean that none were Robin's.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Blah blah blah blah. Wank wank wank wank. And I still don't know what the words *fact* or *Hypocrisy* mean. Wank wank wank Blah blah blah

That's better.


it's not fact until it is proven.

You may note, I have in *fact*, been doing my best to explain this to Ed, but it would appear he perhaps has 'one wheel in the sand' and perhaps even his head up his arse.

[Madness]

No gunpowder residue was on him, also not possible were he the killer.

The Luminol tests performed on Robin Bain were ruled inadmissible due to the popo not following established crime scene procedure of covering the hands in plastic. There could well have been gunpowder residue present but due to the popo incompetence we'll never know.

Fail.

[Mushu]

The evidence that is conclusive is that no blood from any of the victims was on Robin or his clothing. Not possible in the circumstances if he was the killer. No gunpowder residue was on him, also not possible were he the killer. No evidence of any kind to allow him to have been in any of the victims rooms. Not possible were he the killer. His prints were not on the rifle. If he was the last person to have used it, the number of shots fired and the variety of angles and holds would have left clear prints in several areas of the weapon and the magazines. These are facts that specifically clear Robin Bain and prove his innocence, ergo, it is a fact that Robin did not do it.

No other evidence is even required and there is no evidence of any kind pointing to him. The above automatically negates any speculation and conjecture, which is all the defence had anyway.



:msn-wink:I think you mean vain...

The clothes worn during the murders were in the wash. Which poses the question if it were David why would he have blood on him later and why did he not clean up the blood in the laundry

GSR tests were not done at the scene and residue was not found on David either

There were fingerprints on the rifle not up to the standard to be tested, and we can be pretty sure Robin had had his hands on that gun at some stage whether he did it or not (20 rounds in his caravan). Also bloody gloves in Stephens room suggest that whoever did it wore gloves until that point.

Hardly incontrovertible proof there Ed.

[Mushu]

You may note, I have in *fact*, been doing my best to explain this to Ed, but it would appear he perhaps has 'one wheel in the sand' and perhaps even his head up his arse.

Agreed, but you have to admit without Ed KB wouldn't be anywhere near as fun.

[Madness]

I wonder if Ed's been double-dipping on the Tramadol lately?

[Crasherfromwayback]

you have to admit without Ed KB wouldn't be anywhere near as fun.

In my opinion...that is also a *fact*.

[scumdog]

The Luminol tests performed on Robin Bain were ruled inadmissible due to the popo not following established crime scene procedure of covering the hands in plastic. There could well have been gunpowder residue present but due to the popo incompetence we'll never know.

Fail.

Away getting more donuts at the time they were..,

It's all about priorities - and donuts won:niceone:

[Katman]

Away getting more donuts at the time they were..,

It's all about priorities - and donuts won:niceone:

That would possibly be funny.....


.....if we thought you were joking.

[Katman]

It's also a strong indictment against the police that two of them chose to sue Joe Karam for defamation for his portrayal of their incompetence and both lost their cases entirely.

[scumdog]

That would possibly be funny.....


.....if we thought you were joking.

I don't joke about donuts!

[unstuck]

You need these scummy.:devil2:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFMEdGSkl1KwOnXTarIIJaG4as6nyqk hrHfaqyIR58EqsLaqvs

[Mushu]

I don't joke about donuts!

Of course not, its your job that's the joke to you guys.

[scumdog]

Of course not, its your job that's the joke to you guys.

True.

Lucky there's enough idiots out there doing dumb shit to keep us laughing.

[oneofsix]

True.

Lucky there's enough idiots out there doing dumb shit to keep us laughing.

:laugh: Glad to help, pity about idiots sharing your donuts.

[scumdog]

:laugh: Glad to help, pity about idiots sharing your donuts.

There's idiots sneaking in and stealing our donuts?

No wonder our salary doesn't go as far as it should...

[Erelyes]

Who do you think wrote the procedure Drew? A fucking police officer, that'll be who. Even if procedures are clearly established, it's up to police management to ensure procedures are being maintained and procedures followed. Big fucking fail.

Really? A big fucking fail to assume
1) That 'ten minutes' actually means 'no less than ten minutes' (who knows, perhaps it says this in legislation)
2) That rounding '9 minutes 50 seconds' to '10 minutes' will make any consequential difference to a persons BAC, attitude towards needles, which test they think they have the best chance of passing, etc
3) That the judge would rather let a drink-driver walk cos of 10 missed seconds.

Cops are taught all the time to use 'common sense' and 'fair judgement'. Hence the guy I know that was riding a 750cc cruiser on his R's with one week til he was gonna sit his full and got nothing but a warning.

And from my public sector experience I wouldn't 'assume' it was a cop that wrote the procedures anyhoo.


Come on Drew, even you can tell the fucking time & write it down on a piece of paper.

I think it's more a matter of interpretation, rather than counting to 10... Here's a thought. It was a digital clock mayhaps. Y'know, it said 10.20, then it said 10.30. That's fucking arithmetic, that is. But not good enough for le judge of the day, who felt like following not only the letter of the law but the font too.

[Madness]

Really? A big fucking fail to assume
1) That 'ten minutes' actually means 'no less than ten minutes' (who knows, perhaps it says this in legislation)

Ten minutes does mean exactly that you pillock. It doesn't mean half a fucking hour now, does it? Time is a standardized concept all over the world that transcends race, religion, language and location. The law would not need to be any clearer at all if it stated "ten minutes" because every English-language speaking person over the mental age of 6 would understand. It's a pity the popo and people like yourself just can't grasp such a simplistic concept.


2) That rounding '9 minutes 50 seconds' to '10 minutes' will make any consequential difference to a persons BAC, attitude towards needles, which test they think they have the best chance of passing, etc

It matters not one iota what difference the ten seconds you refer to makes to any of the issues you speak of. It's written in law with the intent to provide a person rights when being dealt with by popo. To think it has anything at all to do with these issues is in fact a fail on your part.


3) That the judge would rather let a drink-driver walk cos of 10 missed seconds.

I'm sorry, did I state such a thing? I think not. The Judges personal preferences do not come into it at all. They are doing a job which is clearly set out for them in law. Once the popo failed to confirm that the statuory 10 minute period had been observed it was a black & white case... of fail.


Cops are taught all the time to use 'common sense' and 'fair judgement'. Hence the guy I know that was riding a 750cc cruiser on his R's with one week til he was gonna sit his full and got nothing but a warning.

Yay, that's really cool. Did you guys hug afterwards?


And from my public sector experience I wouldn't 'assume' it was a cop that wrote the procedures anyhoo.

You're right, I seem to recall reading that all Police internal operating procedures are written & maintained by officials form the Ministry of Foreign Affairs & Trade, or was it the Ministry of Education? :facepalm:

If it wasn't a sworn popo it will have still been an employee of the Minister of Police, more than likely a task-force with extremely high overheads.


I think it's more a matter of interpretation, rather than counting to 10... Here's a thought. It was a digital clock mayhaps. Y'know, it said 10.20, then it said 10.30. That's fucking arithmetic, that is. But not good enough for le judge of the day, who felt like following not only the letter of the law but the font too.

Your "public sector experience" had fuck all to do with our criminal justice system, did it?

You also never answered my earlier question. Are you a Joho?

[Pex Adams]

Fact - Drew did not split the atom in his Kitchen
Fact - Scumdog did not read learn how to read a watch at Popo school
Fact - You're all a bunch of failures for not solving the reason why Robin kill Scott Guy - the surely was no motive?!:whocares:

[Madness]

Fact - You're all a bunch of failures for not solving the reason why Robin kill Scott Guy - the surely was no motive?!:whocares:

Old news. Robin was apparently fucking the Labrador & the missing pups were his love-children.

Sharpen up.

[Erelyes]

Ten minutes does mean exactly that you pillock. It doesn't mean half a fucking hour now, does it? Time is a standardized concept all over the world that transcends race, religion, language and location. The law would not need to be any clearer at all if it stated "ten minutes" because every English-language speaking person over the mental age of 6 would understand. It's a pity the popo and people like yourself just can't grasp such a simplistic concept.

X: 'what time do you make it?'
Y: 'ten to'
X: 'odd. my watch says nine and a half to'

You seem to have difficulty understanding that "ten minutes" could mean 'no less than ten minutes' or it could mean 'between 9.5 and 10.5 minutes'. :facepalm:


I'm sorry, did I state such a thing? I think not. The Judges personal preferences do not come into it at all. They are doing a job which is clearly set out for them in law. Once the popo failed to confirm that the statuory 10 minute period hadn't been observed it was a black & white case.. of fail.

So each and every judge would rule the same in such a case? You seem to think that only infallible humans become judges. We need more Judge Judys in NZ, I know what she'd have said to this shit... what every other common sense law abiding citizen would've.


If it wasn't a sworn popo it will have still been an employee of the Minister of Police, more than likely a task-force with extremely high overheads.

'Blah blah blah' you have zero fucking idea, don't you?


Your "public sector experience" had fuck all to do with our criminal justice system, did it?

Of course it had fuckall to do with it, according to your standards if I was a cop or a lawyer I would be too busy being infallible to worry about posting in here.


You also never answered my earlier question. Are you a Joho?

Wow. You actually bothered asking again. :zzzz:

[Madness]

X: 'what time do you make it?'
Y: 'ten to'
X: 'odd. my watch says nine and a half to'

You seem to have difficulty understanding that "ten minutes" could mean 'no less than ten minutes' or it could mean 'between 9.5 and 10.5 minutes'. :facepalm:

You are a fuckwit.


So each and every judge would rule the same in such a case? You seem to think that only infallible humans become judges. We need more Judge Judys in NZ, I know what she'd have said to this shit... what every other common sense law abiding citizen would've.

You watch too much Judge Judy. And you're a fuckwit.


'Blah blah blah' you have zero fucking idea, don't you?

I've formed a few ideas about you. You're a fuckwit.


Of course it had fuckall to do with it, according to your standards if I was a cop or a lawyer I would be too busy being infallible to worry about posting in here.

So your public service experience has as much relevance to this thread as the experience of say, a toilet cleaner. You're a fuckwit.


Wow. You actually bothered asking again. :zzzz:

And still you haven't answered. I'm going to go with guilty by association as there's only one other KB member who's as much of a fuckwit as you & he's a Joho too.

[Erelyes]

And still you haven't answered. I'm going to go with guilty by association as there's only one other KB member who's as much of a fuckwit as you & he's a Joho too.

Sorry, was I obliged to?

You have me bested, sir. I will tell my children of the day that I was defeated in an e-argument by such stunning critical thought.

And no, I don't want your book, thank you.

[Madness]

Sorry, was I obliged to?

You have me bested, sir. I will tell my children of the day that I was defeated in an e-argument by such stunning critical thought.

And no, I don't want your book, thank you.

Come on, there's always a chance that you could come up with something at least half intelligent to say, even if by accident.

[Mushu]

Really? A big fucking fail to assume
1) That 'ten minutes' actually means 'no less than....
Blah blah blah.....

You should join the police, you fit the bill. Stubborn and dumb as a post.

The police have rules that must be followed to protect the rights of Joe public and if it says he gets 10 minutes to decide it doesn't matter whether they give him 5 minutes or 9.59 if it's not ten minutes his rights have been violated.
I will guarantee the judge involved didn't want to let the guy off but he had a decent lawyer (obviously not a public defender) who did his job and the guy got of.
If he then went out and got drunk, crashed his car and hurt someone it would be as much the fault of the cop as the fault of the driver.

[Katman]

And let's not forget that 'technicalities' have nothing to do with the Bain case.

The police suppressed and withheld vital information that could have altered the opinion of the jury in first trial.

David deserves compensation for that fact alone.

[Murray]

You are a fuckwit.
You watch too much Judge Judy. And you're a fuckwit.
I've formed a few ideas about you. You're a fuckwit.
So your public service experience has as much relevance to this thread as the experience of say, a toilet cleaner. You're a fuckwit.
And still you haven't answered. I'm going to go with guilty by association as there's only one other KB member who's as much of a fuckwit as you & he's a Joho too.


Oh and the irony of this post!!!!


Come on, there's always a chance that you could come up with something at least half intelligent to say, even if by accident.

[scissorhands]

Ed's driven many to drink. And his ilk

[Erelyes]

You should join the police, you fit the bill. Stubborn and dumb as a post.

Actually I thought Police are supposed to use their common sense and judgement? It's a pity that we want them to think like this, then come down on them like a ton of bricks when they make a minor error. I sure wouldn't want Police robots that follow every law to the very last letter, regardless of which was it swings.

It's also a pity that a minor, unintentional error like this, has such weight against the grevious, deliberate error to get behind the wheel of a car whilst intoxicated... And not only that but according to you, this minor error would then make the cop liable for all subsequent errors of judgement from the defendant!!!!

I'd be a shit cop. I'm a non-confrontational pussy. And typically too pedantic to think on my feet.


I will guarantee the judge involved didn't want to let the guy off but he had a decent lawyer (obviously not a public defender) who did his job and the guy got of.

Mmm, fair point. Something tells me that if this was a truly bad cop though, he'd have just said in court "nah exactly ten minutes, I'm sure" whether he felt that or not.

[Katman]

Mmm, fair point. Something tells me that if this was a truly bad cop though, he'd have just said in court "nah exactly ten minutes, I'm sure" whether he felt that or not.

Have you ever had a police officer stand up in court and blatantly lie under oath in order to obtain a conviction against you?

I have.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Have you ever had a police officer stand up in court and blatantly lie under oath in order to obtain a conviction against you?

I have.

So have I. Twice.

[Drew]

Have you ever had a police officer stand up in court and blatantly lie under oath in order to obtain a conviction against you?

I have.


So have I. Twice.
So what?

I certainly can't condone it, but I can understand the pressures the cops get from superiors.

I wonder if there is a proper journalist left in this country? Might open a few eyes
if the public got to see how much of a cunt the job is, at more levels than just traffic work.

[Madness]

Oh and the irony of this post!!!!

Murray you come from Hamilton and your name is Murray. You're hardly qualified to comment on intelligence now, are you?

[Murray]

Murray you come from Hamilton and your name is Murray. You're hardly qualified to comment on intelligence now, are you?

But its so easy when there are people like you around!!!!

[Katman]

So what?


For a minute there I mistakenly thought that post came from scumdog.

You should do better than "not condone it" Drew - you should vehemently denounce it.

I hope for your sake you don't find yourself in a similar position one day.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So what?

.

Even from you Drew....that is THE most retarded statement I've ever seen.

[Laava]

So, getting back to the thread title, it would seem that it is not "game over" in fact not even close. It was a big nothing. I have exactly the same marks in both my thumbs that Robin had and I know I didn't do it.
Time for PD.

[Murray]

Come on, there's always a chance that you could come up with something at least half intelligent to say, even if by accident.

Heres red bling back at you - and I am not a cocksmoking gay bar loiterer

Practise what you preach dickhead

[Drew]

For a minute there I mistakenly thought that post came from scumdog.

You should do better than "not condone it" Drew - you should vehemently denounce it.

I hope for your sake you don't find yourself in a similar position one day.


Even from you Drew....that is THE most retarded statement I've ever seen.Not the scathing replies I'd hoped for to be honest. Some people are harder to wind up than my feeble mind can handle.

On a serious note though, a family member was once targeted and bullied by police for something (very bloody serious) on next to no grounds. His mother who works for the courts was appalled, and frightened by what they were put through. I was angry, very fuckin angry. I made a couple little stirs for the cops in the ways I could with the only tool at my disposal being a gixxer thou.

But I also know how many cops have personal lives in ruins, because the job demands so much. It is not hard for me to understand the pressures being put on them. They are understaffed, underpaid (in my opinion), and generally hated by the general public. Parents teach their kids to fear cops, rather than respect them and the uniform.

There is cultural fuck up on both sides of the thin blue line! I have no idea how or what could be done to fix it, but I know damn well it can't be just one sided.

[unstuck]

There is cultural fuck up on both sides of the thin blue line! I have no idea how or what could be done to fix it, but I know damn well it can't be just one sided.

:niceone: Well put that man.:Punk::Punk:

[oldrider]

All this compensation money that some people want to pay David Bain is coming out of our own pockets!

Not some bottomless money bag that they think the government secretly owns! FFS!

Currently on evidence, He (David) does not deserve to be either "locked up or compensated"!

I say absolutely "no" to any compensation! :oi-grr:

Anyone who wants to pay him compensation is free to do so out of their own pockets any time it suits them, just do it! :yes:

[Drew]

Anyone who wants to pay him compensation is free to do so out of their own pockets any time it suits them, just do it! :yes:Haven't there been a few 'whip arounds' for him already?

He's doing alright for himself I think. Got a job on his celebrity alone, a house to live in and furnished as soon as he got out.

Fuck him, I think it's more likely he did it than anyone else. I know his defense managed reasonable doubt, so he shouldn't be in jail though, so all is kinda right in the world.

[Katman]

Time for PD.

Always amuses me when people call for a thread to be PDed simply because their argument has worn so thin they have no straws left to clutch at.

[Drew]

Always amuses me when people call for a thread to be PDed simply because their argument has worn so thin they have no straws left to clutch at.

Always amuses me, when someone thinks they are winning an argument, on sheer volume of posts.

[Katman]

Always amuses me, when someone thinks they are winning an argument, on sheer volume of posts.

It has nothing to do with volume of posts Drew, it's to do with the content of posts.

Maybe you just don't read too good.

[Drew]

It has nothing to do with volume of posts Drew, it's to do with the content of posts.

Maybe you just don't read too good.

You're whole argument is "what if". And that's fair enough for establishing doubt. But you've done fuck all to convince ANYONE who didn't already, to believe that Robin was the killer. Simply because you (like the cops/defence lawyers and everyone else) simply have no proof.

So there is no winning or losing the argument, only one guy knows the truth. So unless you wanna go hang out with that fucken wierdo and try get it out of him, fuck up already!

[unstuck]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1D5Sa2Yq-2g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

[scumdog]

Have you ever had a police officer stand up in court and blatantly lie under oath in order to obtain a conviction against you?

I have.

Certainly wasn't me.
If somebody walks as a result of me sticking to the truth - well, good luck to them, nothing's worth telling a lie for.
If they're a career fuckwit/idiot they'll come again - and they do...;)

[Katman]

You're whole argument is "what if". And that's fair enough for establishing doubt. But you've done fuck all to convince ANYONE who didn't already, to believe that Robin was the killer. Simply because you (like the cops/defence lawyers and everyone else) simply have no proof.

So there is no winning or losing the argument, only one guy knows the truth. So unless you wanna go hang out with that fucken wierdo and try get it out of him, fuck up already!

There has been plenty of evidence provided to suggest that the Not Guilty verdict is the only verdict that should ever have been given.

As to the question of innocence, I'm aware of the fact that factual innocence is required for a compensation payout, however I'm more of the opinion that David Bain deserves compensation simply due to the fact that the police set about ensuring he didn't get a fair first trial.

[Katman]

And further to the question of David's fingerprints imprinted in blood on the rifle, it turns out that the only fingerprints identified as David's were found on the forestock and they were in a reversed position - that is, in a position that has the barrel pointing backwards.

And bear in mind that tests performed on the blood taken from these fingerprints of David's returned a negative result for human DNA.

The police chose not to reveal this information at the first trial even though they made the presence of David's fingerprints on the rifle one of the principle points in their case against David.

[Drew]

This thread is no fun at the moment.

Someone say something stupider than I do!

[Murray]

This thread is no fun at the moment.

Someone say something stupider than I do!

Mark Lundy is innocent and was stitched up by the police

[Katman]

At the first trial the police produced a photo of what they claimed was the lens from Margaret's glasses showing exactly where the lens was found.

It has since been proven that this photo doesn't show a lens at all - it shows a reflection coming off a piece of plastic.

The lens was in fact found under a boot which was under a pile of folded clothing. It could not have 'fallen' there during any struggle with Stephen.

[Katman]

Further examination of photos presented at the first trial have since shown evidence of shoe sole prints in the carpet in David's room by the chest of drawers where the trigger lock key was kept.

Those shoe prints match those on the shoes that Robin Bain was wearing on the day of the murders.

[Drew]

Oh good, a book review.

[Katman]

Oh good, a book review.

It's probably the closest you've ever come to reading a book Drew.

[Mushu]

This thread it's going on in true KB style.

David Bain should be compensated because the only reason guilt or innocence can't be proven is because the cops didn't do their jobs properly and also the cops withheld evidence causing him to be found guilty and spend 12 years in prison.

[Katman]

It should be remembered too that ammunition, both used and unused, was found inside Robin's caravan. Clearly, this evidence was found by the police within the first few days of investigation.

It was also not revealed to the first jury.

[Drew]

It should be remembered too that ammunition, both used and unused, was found inside Robin's caravan. Clearly, this evidence was found by the police within the first few days of investigation.

It was also not revealed to the first jury.

What part of it, are you struggling with Steve? You are reading a book, written for the sole purpose to sway peoples view toward Davids innocence. Can you please stop posting fuckin dribble, until such time as you have read both sides of the story?

You give everyone shit for single mindedness and ignoring what you say, the irony is so thick we're all fuckin chocking on it man.

[Katman]

What part of it, are you struggling with Steve? You are reading a book, written for the sole purpose to sway peoples view toward Davids innocence. Can you please stop posting fuckin dribble, until such time as you have read both sides of the story?

You give everyone shit for single mindedness and ignoring what you say, the irony is so thick we're all fuckin chocking on it man.

These are facts on file Drew.

Facts that are now not disputed by the police.

[Laava]

Always amuses me when people call for a thread to be PDed simply because their argument has worn so thin they have no straws left to clutch at.

No, you missed the point like I knew you would.
Many people have offered their opinions, the whole subject died in the arse in the media, clearly it is not the conclusive proof that you think it is.
You are just arguing for any reason you possibly can because that is how you operate and you have made the thread all about you and your impossibly correct opinions...again.
So yeah, it really is time for PD.

[Drew]

These are facts on file Drew.

Facts that are now not disputed by the police.Saw this, thought of you.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1004775_601867109857835_232192085_n.jpg

[Swoop]

He's doing alright for himself I think. Got a job on his celebrity alone, a house to live in and furnished as soon as he got out.
You may remember (?) that he resided with Joe Karam for quite a while once he was released. It is a little bit challenging to save for a house when [wrongly imprisoned] in jail.

And further to the question of David's fingerprints imprinted in blood on the rifle, it turns out that the only fingerprints identified as David's were found on the forestock and they were in a reversed position - that is, in a position that has the barrel pointing backwards.

For the mentally retarded on KB, that would indicate the rifle is being cleaned. You have to hold the rifle from the muzzle end (the dangerous "Bang - bullet comes out, end") when you shove a cleaning rod down the barrel to clean it.

[Drew]

You may remember (?) that he resided with Joe Karam for quite a while once he was released. It is a little bit challenging to save for a house when [wrongly imprisoned] in jail."Wrongly imprisoned" is a reletive term in my book.



For the mentally retarded on KB, that would indicate the rifle is being cleaned. You have to hold the rifle from the muzzle end (the dangerous "Bang - bullet comes out, end") when you shove a cleaning rod down the barrel to clean it.So where were all the other finger prints on the gun? Had it been wiped down by the father, who didn't try to hide his guilt when he typed a letter out on the computer.

I am not in the slightest bit concerned that he is not in prison. He was not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and I respect the process.

[Mushu]

"Wrongly imprisoned" is a reletive term in my book.


So where were all the other finger prints on the gun? Had it been wiped down by the father, who didn't try to hide his guilt when he typed a letter out on the computer.

I am not in the slightest bit concerned that he is not in prison. He was not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and I respect the process.

Don't know what makes you think 'wrongly imprisoned' is a relative term, the first trial was bullshit and since then it has been reviewed, he has been retried, found not guilty and the evidence reviewed again therefore he shouldn't have been locked up to begin with, hence wrongfully imprisoned.

The gun wasn't wiped down at all, Stephens prints, Davids prints, some unidentifiable prints and some animal blood were all found on the rifle and there were bloody gloves at the scene (making it plausible that Robin never intended to need to wipe the gun anyway). Also there is no way to know at what point Robin decided to commit suicide.

Was it Davids fault the cops didn't do their jobs?

Doesn't the law state innocent until proven guilty, therefore David Bain is innocent and having spent years in prison he should be compensated.

[oldrider]

Don't know what makes you think 'wrongly imprisoned' is a relative term, the first trial was bullshit and since then it has been reviewed, he has been retried, found not guilty and the evidence reviewed again therefore he shouldn't have been locked up to begin with, hence wrongfully imprisoned.

The gun wasn't wiped down at all, Stephens prints, Davids prints, some unidentifiable prints and some animal blood were all found on the rifle and there were bloody gloves at the scene (making it plausible that Robin never intended to need to wipe the gun anyway). Also there is no way to know at what point Robin decided to commit suicide.

Was it Davids fault the cops didn't do their jobs?

Doesn't the law state innocent until proven guilty, therefore David Bain is innocent and having spent years in prison he should be compensated.

Well, what's stopping you? ... Just go ahead and compensate him ... with your "own money"! FFS! :doh:

[oneofsix]

Well, what's stopping you? ... Just go ahead and compensate him ... with your "own money"! FFS! :doh:

How would that teach our law enforcement and "justice" departments to be more care how they do their job? Nah, it has to come out of their budget and make their master sweet over balancing their budgets. they are the ones that stuffed up, Bain didn't so should be compensated for the 12 years they forced him to pay, Mushu didn't so he shouldn't have to pay.

[Katman]

Well, what's stopping you? ... Just go ahead and compensate him ... with your "own money"! FFS! :doh:

Thing is though John, we're talking here about someone who the evidence points towards being wrongly imprisoned.

How many millions has the government squandered on frivolous activities? The Americas Cup and an inflatable rugby ball spring to mind. What about the countless millions that are handed out to people who see benefit collecting as a profession? Are you convinced of the validity of every dollar the government hands out in Treaty settlements?

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that the government should compensate people for wrongful imprisonment.

[Drew]

Don't know what makes you think 'wrongly imprisoned' is a relative term, the first trial was bullshit and since then it has been reviewed, he has been retried, found not guilty and the evidence reviewed again therefore he shouldn't have been locked up to begin with, hence wrongfully imprisoned.

The gun wasn't wiped down at all, Stephens prints, Davids prints, some unidentifiable prints and some animal blood were all found on the rifle and there were bloody gloves at the scene (making it plausible that Robin never intended to need to wipe the gun anyway). Also there is no way to know at what point Robin decided to commit suicide.

Was it Davids fault the cops didn't do their jobs?

Doesn't the law state innocent until proven guilty, therefore David Bain is innocent and having spent years in prison he should be compensated.How come no one points the finger at hospital defense lawyer. Clown was clearly incompetent at the first trial. Why isn't he compensating the killer?

[scissorhands]

Goes back to the crown's responsibilities if the lawyer was at fault, as with the faults of the police

Poor boy didnt have a chance due to ineptness and possible malicious [in]actions of the state.

As well as putting forward false claims in evidence, or omitting important facts such as shoe size, gun prints, computer prints, and the reading glasses evidence. Then the non bagging of hands, and the burning of the house. Plus plenty more

Peeps [cops] hating on special needs suspects, comes into this too.

It fucking still like the dark ages out there

[Drew]

It fucking still like the dark ages out there

Cheer up. You're not locked away in Cherry farm, or whatever that place just out of Levin was called. Which is a chunk of realestate I'd bloody love to own.

[scissorhands]

Cheer up.....

bullied to death link below



http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bullied+to+death&oq=bullied+to+death&gs_l=youtube.1.0.35i39j0l9.170.3064.0.6647.14.9.0. 0.0.0.1115.7431.5-3j3j3.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.JoldNflK1bI

[Katman]

Does anyone remember the Janine Law case?

Her body was found by police face down on her bed, naked from the waist down, with semen around her rectal/vaginal area and a tea-towel stuffed in her mouth.

The police concluded that she died of an asthma attack and closed the case.

It took an individual dissatisfied police officer four years to convince the police to reopen the case and the offender was found with a few months.

[Katman]

Anyone remember David Doherty?

[scissorhands]

It appears they are trying to change

http://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsroom/publications/featured-articles/child-protection-teams-today

Child Protection Teams today
Vol 46, No.4 | NZPA | Wed May 1st, 2013

‘We can’t drop the ball on child abuse files again’

In 2007, Police were caught in the glare of a media spotlight over a nationwide backlog of child abuse files after the Police Association drew attention to several hundred neglected cases. The Independent Police Conduct Authority got involved and produced a damning report on the problem, which came down to an absence of accountability and a lack of staff. Things have improved enormously since then, but one lesson that Police are doomed to study again is the need for perpetual vigilance in this crucial area of policing. Ellen Brook reports.....

[Katman]

Anyone remember this one?

In 2000, a man, whose name is suppressed, was exonerated of allegations of indecent assault on his two sons, both then aged under 12 years. He was convicted in 1995 and spent 14 months in prison before the Court of Appeal quashed the conviction after both sons retracted their allegations. The allegations were withdrawn by the children within 48 hours of being made, but police failed to make those facts available to defense counsel and continued with the prosecution. Over half a million New Zealand Dollars was paid in compensation.

[scissorhands]

Anyone remember David Doherty?

its fucking endless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dougherty
David Brian Dougherty is a New Zealander who was convicted in 1993 on charges of abduction and the rape of an 11-year-old girl.[1] In 1997, when new DNA evidence ruled him out of the charge, Dougherty was acquitted after serving over 3 years in prison.[2][3] He received a public apology in 2001 along with $868,728 in compensation.[4][5] In 2003, the real offender, Nicholas Reekie, was found guilty and convicted of the crime.[6] Dougherty's case was the subject of the 2008 New Zealand telemovie Until Proven Innocent which documents the miscarriage of justice that had Dougherty imprisoned......

[Erelyes]

It fucking still like the dark ages out there


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTdDN_MRe64

[scissorhands]

Does anyone remember the Janine Law case?.......

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10726969

Watching the detectives: Bryan Rowe remembered
By Geoff Cumming
5:30 AM Saturday May 21, 2011



The case for the prosecution: Former top-ranking policeman Bryan John Rowe is accused of being a traitor. Miffed by a Police Complaints Authority verdict which tainted his stellar career, he took revenge as a private investigator, exposing flaws in police cases and undermining loyal cops.

The defence case - backed by an overwhelming line-up of witnesses- is that Rowe in both careers was motivated only by the truth. He would pursue justice fearlessly and fairly. His one minor blemish was a certain obstinacy: once he settled on a theory, he was very hard to shake from his conviction.

Rowe, who died suddenly last weekend aged 70, was the country's highest-ranking criminal investigator from 1988 to 1996 as superintendent of the Auckland CIB. In a 33-year police career, without DNA testing and other technology advances, he used a methodical, evidence-gathering approach to resolve many cases.

The highest-profile success was the mistaken-identity shooting of Margaret Bell outside the Mainstreet nightclub in 1979. His biggest regret: the failure to nail the killer of publican Chris Bush after the Red Fox Tavern shooting in 1987.

He knew who did it, though. A roll-call of top investigators, including police commissioner Peter Marshall, found him a supportive mentor.

Ironically, Rowe will be best remembered for his work after taking early retirement, helping those he believed were wrongly accused or convicted to beat the police.

For this, he was branded traitor by some. He ruined a few careers. But at his funeral on Thursday, plenty of tall men with crewcuts and dated suits rubbed shoulders with those who had cause to resent the police, along with family, friends, lawyers and fellow ex-police now on "the other side".

Mourners heard of a passionate man who liked nothing better than a family gathering with a few beers and a whisky to watch sport on TV - horse racing or his beloved Warriors.

His wife Judy says it did hurt that some in the police thought him a turncoat. But he had no difficulty reconciling the apparently opposing careers. "He always said he was doing exactly the same as when he was a policeman - he was searching for the truth."

His early death (he was with five family members at the local gym when his heart stopped) leaves unfinished business. Though he retired last year, he was still helping Christchurch lawyer Jonathan Eaton's bid to get compensation for Rex Haig, the Invercargill tuna fisherman wrongly convicted of the 1994 murder of crewmate Mark Roderique.

In Paparua Prison in 1997, Haig and two fellow inmates took prison guards hostage to draw attention to their cases. Rowe was flown down from Auckland with Kevin Ryan QC to defuse the drama. Haig's acquittal in 2006 had much to do with Rowe's tenacious investigation.

"Once he decided something was awry he showed absolute commitment to see it through," says Eaton. "He wasn't afraid to put noses out of joint. But he wouldn't make a finding unless he had dug very deep."

Haig couldn't be at the funeral. His daughter Karen flew from Dunedin to speak on his behalf and told of the hundreds of hours Rowe worked on the case. Her father looked on Rowe as a brother.

The Vini family were there too. Tania Vini was one of three teenage girls convicted in 2001 of the aggravated robbery of a 16-year-old at the Three Kings mall. Tania, aged 14 at the time of the offence, Teangarua "Lucy" Akatere, 15, and Cushla Fuataha, 14, spent seven months in prison.

Tania's distraught father Vini Kavi approached lawyer Gary Gotlieb who brought in Rowe, who blew the police case apart. He walked the route police said the trio had walked to establish they could not have done so within the timeframes. He interviewed the victim who said she knew Lucy and had told police she was not one of her attackers. The policeman said to keep the information to herself.

Tania named her son, now 5, after him (with Gary as the middle name in Gotlieb's honour). "He was like a second dad, protecting us from everything. And he never wanted any money from us," she says.

Gotlieb first met Rowe in 1973, and after he launched the Double 8 detective agency, used him frequently. "He did the hard yards and thought outside the box," says Gotlieb. "He would chase up every avenue."

Breakthroughs often came on Rowe's nightly long walks. "He would come home, ring me up and away he'd go ... When he thought the cops had got it wrong he got really angry, especially if they were covering it up or withholding information."

He was, of course, not infallible himself (though he might have trouble admitting it). In the late-80s, he faced a drink-driving charge which was eventually dismissed. In 1995, he was criticised by the Police Complaints Authority over the Janine Law case. Law was raped and murdered in her Grey Lynn house in April 1988, a teatowel stuffed down her throat. Somehow, police concluded she died of an asthma attack. When Rowe reviewed the file, he supported the investigating officer's findings.

In his second career, he became a "go to" man for crime reporters seeking insight into police procedure or misdoings. Commenting on the PCA's low prosecution rate in 1997, he said: "I think there is a feeling with any member of the police that if he or she is stupid enough to do something wrong he would expect to get support from his colleagues about his version of events."

He further polarised ex-colleagues in 2002 by giving evidence in the private prosecution of Keith Abbott, the constable who shot dead a softball bat-wielding Steven Wallace in Waitara in April 2000. Rowe maintained that, with three officers present, alternative means could have been used. In cross-examination, the Law case came up and he was accused of being "anti-police". He subsequently won a $270,000 defamation award over a story and column critical of him and other officers who testified against Abbott.

Rowe was not, says Gotlieb, motivated by money. There were no flash cars, he and Judy lived in the same Glenfield house for 35 years. But he put his earnings to good use, shouting the extended family to fortnight-long holidays in Queensland four times in recent years.

The summing-up is left to Eaton: "He leaves a huge hole in the justice system. There would be people wrongly behind bars but for Bryan Rowe."

And the verdict? It's hard to fault the judgment of Judy, who this week received many messages of sympathy from strangers. "He was a good man. I'm just beginning to realise how many people he has helped."

also Bryan Rowes death article
]http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10726077

[Edbear]

Don't know what makes you think 'wrongly imprisoned' is a relative term, the first trial was bullshit and since then it has been reviewed, he has been retried, found not guilty and the evidence reviewed again therefore he shouldn't have been locked up to begin with, hence wrongfully imprisoned.

The gun wasn't wiped down at all, Stephens prints, Davids prints, some unidentifiable prints and some animal blood were all found on the rifle and there were bloody gloves at the scene (making it plausible that Robin never intended to need to wipe the gun anyway). Also there is no way to know at what point Robin decided to commit suicide.

Was it Davids fault the cops didn't do their jobs?

Doesn't the law state innocent until proven guilty, therefore David Bain is innocent and having spent years in prison he should be compensated.

The gun had been wiped down, leaving David's fingerprints the only clear prints on the gun and in a position consistent with the wiping down.

Try to get your facts right first.

[Katman]

The gun had been wiped down, leaving David's fingerprints the only clear prints on the gun and in a position consistent with the wiping down.

Try to get your facts right first.

What a load of bollocks Ed.

Stop making shit up.

[Edbear]

What a load of bollocks Ed.

Stop making shit up.

You have already proven you are incapable of reading the evidence in the case. Go and try it sometime...

[Katman]

You have already proven you are incapable of reading the evidence in the case. Go and try it sometime...

Believe me Ed, I've been reading a shitload about the case over the last couple of weeks.

[Edbear]

Believe me Ed, I've been reading a shitload about the case over the last couple of weeks.

Try the court documents, interviews with Police officers, etc. you know, the real stuff, not conjecture.

I don't need to make stuff up, I even post reference to prove it, not that you read it very thoroughly.

[Katman]

Try the court documents, interviews with Police officers, etc. you know, the real stuff, not conjecture.

I don't need to make stuff up, I even post reference to prove it, not that you read it very thoroughly.

It has been repeatedly proven that the police will say and do just about anything to get a conviction Ed.

What the police say is not necessarily fact.

[Winston001]

its fucking endless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dougherty
David Brian Dougherty is a New Zealander who was convicted in 1993 on charges of abduction and the rape of an 11-year-old girl.[1] In 1997, when new DNA evidence ruled him out of the charge, Dougherty was acquitted after serving over 3 years in prison.[2][3] He received a public apology in 2001 along with $868,728 in compensation.

With respect, it is not endless. Nothing like it.

Since 1998 there have been seven people from four trials who have been paid compensation for wrongful conviction. Four trials in 14 years. Over that time there would have been 30,000 jury trials (2,700/year).

[Katman]

Since 1998 there have been seven people from four trials who have been paid compensation for wrongful conviction.

How many have there been who haven't been paid compensation?

[Edbear]

It has been repeatedly proven that the police will say and do just about anything to get a conviction Ed.

What the police say is not necessarily fact.

Not even when the defence agrees? Like I said, do your research better.

[Katman]

Not even when the defence agrees? Like I said, do your research better.

Got a reference for that?

[Edbear]

Got a reference for that?

Again? How many times do I have to post it?

[Katman]

Again? How many times do I have to post it?

I'm well aware of the link you posted earlier Ed.

Show me where in it the defense agree that the rifle was wiped down and David's fingerprints are consistent with this wiping down.

[Winston001]

Thing is though John, we're talking here about someone who the evidence points towards being wrongly imprisoned.

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that the government should compensate people for wrongful imprisonment.

Agree absolutely.

Where we differ is that there is a big difference between innocence and prima facie guilt which cannot quite be proven. Some juries struggle for days before reaching a verdict or simply give up.

Guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Jurisprudential scholars use algebra for this stuff but generally it means a 75% certainty in the jurors minds. Not 100%. Not 51%.

FYI the balance of probabilities is considered to be 66%.

[Winston001]

Anyway I'm satisfied David Bain has been acquitted even if that goes against the grain.

I do not believe he should be compensated. The weight of evidence still points at him.

[Edbear]

I'm well aware of the link you posted earlier Ed.

Show me where in it the defense agree that the rifle was wiped down and David's fingerprints are consistent with this wiping down.

Start with that Privy Council report and scroll to pages 35-37.

[Mushu]

The gun had been wiped down, leaving David's fingerprints the only clear prints on the gun and in a position consistent with the wiping down.

Try to get your facts right first.

Stevens prints were also on the gun, is it not possible that the gun was handled wearing gloves giving the impression it was wiped down.
And even if it was wiped down, why would David have gone to the trouble of wiping it down and leave clear bloody finger prints on it, and what else did he kill to get the animal blood?

[Katman]

Start with that Privy Council report and scroll to pages 35-37.

That is what the Crown submitted to the Court of Appeal.

Nowhere does it say that the Defense agreed with it.

[Mushu]

Agree absolutely.

Where we differ is that there is a big difference between innocence and prima facie guilt which cannot quite be proven. Some juries struggle for days before reaching a verdict or simply give up.

Guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Jurisprudential scholars use algebra for this stuff but generally it means a 75% certainty in the jurors minds. Not 100%. Not 51%.

FYI the balance of probabilities is considered to be 66%.

In this case it shouldn't be necessary to prove his innocence, he can prove that the information is unavailable because of the police, David had no input as to what evidence was collected, and was probably pressured by the police to agree to the burning down of the house. Thus not his fault.

[Edbear]

Stevens prints were also on the gun, is it not possible that the gun was handled wearing gloves giving the impression it was wiped down.
And even if it was wiped down, why would David have gone to the trouble of wiping it down and leave clear bloody finger prints on it, and what else did he kill to get the animal blood?

Stephen's prints were on the silencer. The attempt at wiping down the gun was not particularly thorough. Doesn't alter the fact as per the reference in the Privy Council report.


In this case it shouldn't be necessary to prove his innocence, he can prove that the information is unavailable because of the police, David had no input as to what evidence was collected, and was probably pressured by the police to agree to the burning down of the house. Thus not his fault.

Pure conjecture and obvious bias.

[Winston001]

In this case it shouldn't be necessary to prove his innocence, he can prove that the information is unavailable because of the police, David had no input as to what evidence was collected...

Yes that is a reasonable argument which his lawyer will no doubt make. The test for compensation is "innocent on the balance of probabilities" so they also have to address the evidence pointing at David.


How many have there been who haven't been paid compensation?

Cabinet receives one or two claims a year so over fourteen years that is about 28 claims. Of those, 7 have been accepted and paid.

[Katman]

Stephen's prints were on the silencer. The attempt at wiping down the gun was not particularly thorough. Doesn't alter the fact as per the reference in the Privy Council report.


As I've said Ed, that "fact as per the reference in the Privy Council report" is simply what the Crown alleged to the Court of Appeal.

[Mushu]

Stephen's prints were on the silencer. The attempt at wiping down the gun was not particularly thorough. Doesn't alter the fact as per the reference in the Privy Council report.



Pure conjecture and obvious bias.

You said the bloody prints were a result of the way he held the gun to wipe it down, how do you hold a gun to wipe it?
And again I'll ask, where did the animal blood come from?
How can you tell the difference if something was wiped poorly or just handled with gloves?

There is conjecture on both sides of this debate, again, because the evidence is unavailable, tell me, who's fault is that?
Of course I'm biased, imagine David is innocent for a second and put yourself in his position, his life has been destroyed. This case should be quite simple to prove if the cops had done their job.

[scissorhands]

Which included presenting misleading evidence, and not presenting important evidence at all

David was a sitting duck with his crown solicitor and his mental handicaps, and a general dislike for him based on

'HIS FACE AND DEMEANOUR'

PURSUING A GUILTY CONVICTION IN THIS MANNER
ON WHAT AN AUTISTIC LIKE PAPERBOY
SAID IN INTERVIEWS
AND WHOS MUM DRESSED HIM FUNNY

IS PLAIN BAD POLICING

[Edbear]

That is what the Crown submitted to the Court of Appeal.

Nowhere does it say that the Defense agreed with it.


As I've said Ed, that "fact as per the reference in the Privy Council report" is simply what the Crown alleged to the Court of Appeal.

I recall reading it in one of the papers I looked up but I will have to do a bit more digging to find it. What tells, though, is what the defense raised and what they did not raise. The only alternative the defense did raise was that the blood was old and animal. They did not argue the prints' owner or position.

Here is another source of info...
http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/davids-fingerprints-in-blood-were-found-on-the-murder-rifle


You said the bloody prints were a result of the way he held the gun to wipe it down, how do you hold a gun to wipe it?
And again I'll ask, where did the animal blood come from?
How can you tell the difference if something was wiped poorly or just handled with gloves?

There is conjecture on both sides of this debate, again, because the evidence is unavailable, tell me, who's fault is that?
Of course I'm biased, imagine David is innocent for a second and put yourself in his position, his life has been destroyed. This case should be quite simple to prove if the cops had done their job.

See the link above. You too, stop making blind conjecture and go by official records. What was the defense case? Not your own spin on it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I recall reading it in one of the papers I looked up but I will have to do a bit more digging to find it.

I recall flying to the moon once.

[Katman]

They did not argue the prints' owner or position.


Why on earth would the defence argue about who the fingerprints belonged to or their position?

[Kickaha]

ON WHAT AN AUTISTIC LIKE PAPERBOY
SAID IN INTERVIEWS
According to you fucking near everyone is autistic

[Drew]

According to you fucking near everyone is autisticI wanna be autistic!

I suck at playing guitar at the moment.

[Katman]

Here is another source of info...
http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/davids-fingerprints-in-blood-were-found-on-the-murder-rifle


There is so much logic fail in that article.

[unstuck]

According to you fucking near everyone is autistic

It,s the autism.:lol::lol:

[Edbear]

There is so much logic fail in that article.

Do us the favour of your interpreting skills and show it. You like to say such things but do not like to back yourself up.

[Mushu]

I recall reading it in one of the papers I looked up but I will have to do a bit more digging to find it. What tells, though, is what the defense raised and what they did not raise. The only alternative the defense did raise was that the blood was old and animal. They did not argue the prints' owner or position.

Here is another source of info...
http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/davids-fingerprints-in-blood-were-found-on-the-murder-rifle



See the link above. You too, stop making blind conjecture and go by official records. What was the defense case? Not your own spin on it.

I refer you to justice Binnies report, chapter viii, section 3.

Some bullshit website is hardly court documents.

[Katman]

Do us the favour of your interpreting skills and show it. You like to say such things but do not like to back yourself up.

"The Defence produced expert witnesses who state that often fingerprints are not left on murder weapons after they have been used, but in the David Bain case there were fingerprints on the murder weapon, so this situation simply does not apply here".

Can you not see the stupidity in this statement?

The fingerprints present on the gun do not indicate the sum total of the gun's handling.

The killer clearly wore gloves for a period of time during the killings.

Evidence was provided that even in suicide cases guns can often return no fingerprints.

[Katman]

"In addition to David's fingerprints on the butt there were prints on the silencer belonging to Stephen that are consistent with him trying to fend off an attack. Were these left from a previous hunting trip too?"

David's fingerprints were never found on the butt of the rifle and the stupidity of the question at the end of the quote should be clear for even you to see Ed.

[Edbear]

How about we simply consider the basis for the defence case. The defence assert that Robin Bain was the killer, not David, right? That is their sole argument, right? Nobody ever questions that it was either Robin or David, right?

[Katman]

How about we simply consider the basis for the defence case. The defence assert that Robin Bain was the killer, not David, right? That is their sole argument, right? Nobody ever questions that it was either Robin or David, right?

Well actually, there's the little matter of Nicholas Greet.

[Edbear]

Well actually, there's the little matter of Nicholas Greet.

So establishing that, if it wasn't Robin it was David, right? Not even Joe Karam has ever disputed that.

[Katman]

So establishing that, if it wasn't Robin it was David, right? Not even Joe Karam has ever disputed that.

You quoted my post but did you even read it?

[Mushu]

You quoted my post but did you even read it?

He probably read it, but by now you must have noticed Ed has a bit of a comprehension problem.

[Edbear]

You quoted my post but did you even read it?


He probably read it, but by now you must have noticed Ed has a bit of a comprehension problem.

I not only read it I was looking him up and reading his part in all this. Let's just stick to facts, eh? THE DEFENSE ONLY ARGUED IT WAS ROBIN, how hard is that for you two to comprehend? Nicolas Greet was never considered a suspect by either camp.

You are deliberately trying to skew the argument away from fact to fantasy as you are wont to do.

The FACT is that if Robin was not the killer, David was. End of story!

I know this is far too simple for you to understand...

[Katman]

The FACT is that if Robin was not the killer, David was. End of story!


So what proof do you have that Robin wasn't the killer?

[Edbear]

So what proof do you have that Robin wasn't the killer?

You really take the cake don't you? How many times have I and others, posted irrefutable evidence? Of course you simply I ignore it.

Robin could not have been the killer and it only needs one absolute fact of evidence to prove it. Choose from at least three or four among those that have been posted several times.

[Katman]

You really take the cake don't you? How many times have I and others, posted irrefutable evidence? Of course you simply I ignore it.

Robin could not have been the killer and it only needs one absolute fact of evidence to prove it. Choose from at least three or four among those that have been posted several times.

I haven't seen any irrefutable evidence posted that proves Robin wasn't the killer.

All I've seen is speculation.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The FACT is that if Robin was not the killer, David was.

I know this is far too simple for you to understand...


Robin could not have been the killer and it only needs one absolute fact of evidence to prove it. .

The only *fact* here...is that you're a *twat*

[Edbear]

I haven't seen any irrefutable evidence posted that proves Robin wasn't the killer.

All I've seen is speculation.

Sounds like you alright. Speculation is all you are capable of seeing.

Anybody else want to repost the evidence? If I do he will only ignore it.

[Mushu]

I not only read it I was looking him up and reading his part in all this. Let's just stick to facts, eh? THE DEFENSE ONLY ARGUED IT WAS ROBIN, how hard is that for you two to comprehend? Nicolas Greet was never considered a suspect by either camp.

You are deliberately trying to skew the argument away from fact to fantasy as you are wont to do.

The FACT is that if Robin was not the killer, David was. End of story!

I know this is far too simple for you to understand...

Whether or not it was bought up at the trial doesn't eliminate it as a possibility. Do you have evidence he wasn't there? Was he even investigated at all or just swept under the rug like the subject of incest?

[Edbear]

The only *fact* here...is that you're a *twat*

And you're boring. Who cares about your opinion of me? :doh:

[Edbear]

Whether or not it was bought up at the trial doesn't eliminate it as a possibility. Do you have evidence he wasn't there? Was he even investigated at all or just swept under the rug like the subject of incest?

That's a good boy, you just keep ignoring reality and concentrate on blind speculation... Saves face that way... :sleep: