Misrepresentation

[Robert Taylor]

A thread that all round deviant Drew started on another topic ( selling bikes ) and how people will tell big lies to make the sale reminded me how we are also afflicted in the suspension industry. Private sellers and those peddling stuff on Trade me but misrepresenting are all too common and its disturbing and despicable. Here are a few examples

1) The guy who was passing off a Sachs shock on Trade me as Ohlins. When we asked a few questions and pointed out that it wasnt Ohlins it was promptly withdrawn from sale. How many people have been conned in this way?

2 ) ''Im sending my forks to you for service and setup, the guy who sold me the bike said they have Ohlins ( or Race Tech ) pistons and springs in them.'' We pull them apart to find they are stock or have had a terrible bodge in them. Its surprising and disturbing how often this happens..........

3 ) The guy who bought a large capacity road bike to us recently with an Ohlins shock that wasnt working. He had purchased it like that from a dealer. When the bike showed up we were horrified. The shock was for a totally different model, wrong length, wrong stroke, wrong valving, there were clearance issues. It also had a 1368 lb spring fitted which should have been a 969 lb spring. The bike was DANGEROUS and should not have been sold in that condition. The guy who traded it knew the shock was WRONG, the guy who accepted the trade should have known it was WRONG, the guy selling the bike should have known it was WRONG. it was VERY WRONG that it cost the customer a not insubstatnial sum to put it right so that the bike was in a safe and rideable condition

4) People removing Race Tech emulators out of their forks before they onsell the bike. Emulators are matched to work with the stock damper rods that have had their original damping holes oversized so there is no flow restriction in the rods themselves. The emulators take over that duty and do a much better job of it. If you remove the emulators ( so you can make a few more DISHONEST pennies ) you end up with a set of forks with virtually NO DAMPING. That is a very despicable thing to do, selling a bike that you have KNOWINGLY made unsafe

A few prosecutions wouldnt go amiss here and there to send a message THIS IS NOT ALRIGHT. We hear stories all the time about dealers doing the odd dodgy thing and there are protections in place to seek recourse for such misdemeanours. But the number of private resellers doing such dodgy things is very much in evidence, and that INCLUDES trading in bikes with defects that might not be readily apparent and not being sincere enough to tell the dealer

Thankfully, most New Zealanders have a keen sense of fairplay.

With respect to suspension and in particular Ohlins we offer a complimentary service verifying if such goods advertised on Trademe, E-Bay etc are exactly what they are represented as. Every Ohlins shock made in Sweden has a specification coding stamped into its cylinder head and its vital to get that off the reseller. On receipt of that info and an e-mailed link etc we can verify exactly what it is. This helps to avert often costly mistakes. We are on the side of the purchaser, we wouldnt after all sell an unsuitable suspension unit ourselves. Caveat emptor.

Contrary to very popular misconception shocks are not ''one size fits all'' They are model specific.

[bogan]

Some pretty shocking behavior there.

Nice work on the serial number verification thing :niceone: It would be good to see someone's false advertising rebound back and bite them in the ass.

I tried to think of more puns, but my creativity has bottomed out...

[Mom]

I tried to think of more puns, but my creativity has bottomed out...

Your poor bottom. Apparently I need to spread myself around a bit before I can spring a bit more bling on you.

*pathetic I agree, but I tried :D

All Round Deviant? I cant wait to see what that means.

[nzspokes]

On number 1, could it have been the guy didnt know it wasnt ohlinns? And he removed it when he was told it wasnt?

[AllanB]

With respect to suspension and in particular Ohlins we offer a complimentary service verifying if such goods advertised on Trademe, E-Bay etc are exactly what they are represented as. Every Ohlins shock made in Sweden has a specification coding stamped into its cylinder head and its vital to get that off the reseller. On receipt of that info and an e-mailed link etc we can verify exactly what it is.


Good shit RT.

[Robert Taylor]

On number 1, could it have been the guy didnt know it wasnt ohlinns? And he removed it when he was told it wasnt?

Could be but he didnt try very hard and made an assumption if that were the case. But when was ignorance ever a credible excuse? No sympathy for him.

[Robert Taylor]

Another scenario, we have done two jobs recently where the customers paid not insubstanial amounts of money elsewhere for a revalve when in fact the number one issue was the springing was incorrect for the rider weight. One of these riders being very light and the other heavy. It doesnt matter how much you revalve it, if the springing isnt fundamentally matched to the rider stats the shock just aint going to work. The light rider spent the entire Junior Motox champs crashing his brains out because the spring rate was 4 rates too heavy for him....

Even if the shocks were ''hydraulically tired'' youd still get a way better result by first and foremost fitting correct spring rates. It severely peeves me off that people take money when its not actually the correct and most important fix that they are doing. And some of these guys have got the temerity to call themselves experts.

[Gremlin]

Your industry certainly isn't alone in having plenty of people who think they know what they're doing, when they really don't.

The only big difference is that suspension keeps you upright. In IT, it just means the business might be dead in the water for a while...

[Jantar]

I do make many changes to my bikes, but things like suspension upgrades I leave to the experts. I do have one question though. If I were to upgrade either front or rear suspension on my GSX1250FA would you recommend I do first?

[bluninja]

Food for thought. Not that I'm looking to move my bike along any time soon, but if I left the front as is (sprung for my weight) and with emulators in, but replaced the ohlins with the original shock and spring would I be selling a suspension deathtrap ?


Also, if I lost 12% bodyweight since I had the suspension done, at what point should I be looking to change spring rates? Would it be cheaper to eat chocolate, cake and drink malt whiskey to recover my weight than "tune" my suspension?

[Drew]

All Round Deviant? I cant wait to see what that means.That's the spirit!


I do make many changes to my bikes, but things like suspension upgrades I leave to the experts. I do have one question though. If I were to upgrade either front or rear suspension on my GSX1250FA would you recommend I do first?

Ummm, spring rates. I thought Robert had made that pretty clear.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Could be but he didnt try very hard and made an assumption if that were the case. But when was ignorance ever a credible excuse? No sympathy for him.

But they both had yellow springs! ergo, both Ohlins......

I just want to chime in and say thanks for the "let us check that out for you" thing.

I'll be in touch when I need my Scrambler shocks recalibrated for whatever I end up buying.....

[HenryDorsetCase]

Food for thought. Not that I'm looking to move my bike along any time soon, but if I left the front as is (sprung for my weight) and with emulators in, but replaced the ohlins with the original shock and spring would I be selling a suspension deathtrap ?



I did a swapsie deal with cash my way: sold the guy my (beautifully upgraded) stock forks with emulators and springs, bought the stock forks from him, sold the ohlins rear and reinstalled the stock. Badaboom badabing, recouped some investment.

[Robert Taylor]

I do make many changes to my bikes, but things like suspension upgrades I leave to the experts. I do have one question though. If I were to upgrade either front or rear suspension on my GSX1250FA would you recommend I do first?

I guess the quick answer is whichever end is giving you the most grief.

The front end blows through its stroke too readily under brakes, also it wont absorb the abrupt bumps on the road. If thats driving you nuts do that first. The springs need changing to linear wind in a rate appropriate to you ( and dont implicitly trust spring rate calculators on the net ) We strengthen up the midvalve for more initial hold and revalve the standard rebound piston. If its got big port compression pistons we simply revalve them. If they are small port pistons ( and only if they have small ports ) we replace with big port pistons that have ample flow area over abrupt bumps

We did a set of CBR600 forks today and they had big port pistons, the customer had budgeted to replace them , but he didnt need them

End result more control but also much more compliance

If the load on the rear is substantial and its riding low in its stroke than that may be the number 1 issue to address. The stock shock is pretty basic and lacks size and oil capacity, so deleting the first part of a typical statement you cannot turn it into strawberry jam. Bear in mind that Ohlins now have a ''streetline'' range of highly affordable shocks for such bikes.

[Coldrider]

Hi Robert, have you had any experience (comments) of the Showa suspension on the 2012 CBR1000RR units yet, the big piston fronts and balance free rears.

[Robert Taylor]

Food for thought. Not that I'm looking to move my bike along any time soon, but if I left the front as is (sprung for my weight) and with emulators in, but replaced the ohlins with the original shock and spring would I be selling a suspension deathtrap ?


Also, if I lost 12% bodyweight since I had the suspension done, at what point should I be looking to change spring rates? Would it be cheaper to eat chocolate, cake and drink malt whiskey to recover my weight than "tune" my suspension?

Absolutely not. If say we take the opposite extreme ( a very light and short rider ) you dont ''spring down'' the front end as much as you would think. There still regardless has to be a minimum ''threshold'' of front fork spring rate to support the weight of the bike itself and the weight that pitches forward under braking. That is one of the laughable anomolies with online spring rate calculators, they dont always allow for that and other real world factors.

A spring rate change you may be verging on, but frankly chocolate and malt whiskey sounds great!

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Robert, have you had any experience (comments) of the Showa suspension on the 2012 CBR1000RR units yet, the big piston fronts and balance free rears.

BPF forks yes aka "bad performing forks''. Harsh on bumps. A classis case of finding a design that is appreciably cheaper to make and then getting the marketing guys to say wonderful things.
Rear end no but Im keen to have a look at one and dyno it. Aka ''Showlins''. Much like what K-Tech have done its a blatant rip off with a couple of different interpretations.

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Robert, have you had any experience (comments) of the Showa suspension on the 2012 CBR1000RR units yet, the big piston fronts and balance free rears.

I should post a photo of the dozens of BPF assemblies we have removed, sitting in boxes...........

Compared to conventional 20mm cartridges they push 10 times more fluid for any given length of shaft displacement, and are trying to flow that through a series of tiny ports that choke off in flow rate over abrupt bumps. The ''cross talking'' that also occurs when you adjust rebound is also sizable. If you slow down the rebound you also get more compression damping, even if you dont want it. This is clearly visible on our suspension dyno.

A lower cost and quite reasonable cure is to fit big port Race Tech pistons, but we do find it neccessary to dyno them to optimise the force curves as the ''self instal'' setting bank reccommendations are appreciably ''off'', especially on rebound. Other than that, complete cartridge replacement at of course a lot more dollars.

[skippa1]

I should post a photo of the dozens of BPF assemblies we have removed, sitting in boxes...........

Compared to conventional 20mm cartridges they push 10 times more fluid for any given length of shaft displacement, and are trying to flow that through a series of tiny ports that choke off in flow rate over abrupt bumps. The ''cross talking'' that also occurs when you adjust rebound is also sizable. If you slow down the rebound you also get more compression damping, even if you dont want it. This is clearly visible on our suspension dyno.

A lower cost and quite reasonable cure is to fit big port Race Tech pistons, but we do find it neccessary to dyno them to optimise the force curves as the ''self instal'' setting bank reccommendations are appreciably ''off'', especially on rebound. Other than that, complete cartridge replacement at of course a lot more dollars.


Ok, I'm in your neighbourhood and I'm wondering about a v rod muscle. I know she's a power cruiser but I am wanting the best performance I can get from the bike. Any recommendations?

[Coldrider]

I should post a photo of the dozens of BPF assemblies we have removed, sitting in boxes...........

Compared to conventional 20mm cartridges they push 10 times more fluid for any given length of shaft displacement, and are trying to flow that through a series of tiny ports that choke off in flow rate over abrupt bumps. The ''cross talking'' that also occurs when you adjust rebound is also sizable. If you slow down the rebound you also get more compression damping, even if you dont want it. This is clearly visible on our suspension dyno.

A lower cost and quite reasonable cure is to fit big port Race Tech pistons, but we do find it neccessary to dyno them to optimise the force curves as the ''self instal'' setting bank reccommendations are appreciably ''off'', especially on rebound. Other than that, complete cartridge replacement at of course a lot more dollars.That's interesting, even though i find it a million times better than I had from my previous bike, I find the standard setup better with 19Kg of load (while touring), than with just me. I am 95kg myself, and i find that situation odd.
I have not adjusted the suspension at all as I am aware the BPF forks need adjusting back to front as in rebound before compression (unless i am misinformed).

[Jantar]

..... The stock shock is pretty basic and lacks size and oil capacity, so deleting the first part of a typical statement you cannot turn it into strawberry jam. Bear in mind that Ohlins now have a ''streetline'' range of highly affordable shocks for such bikes.

Many thanks for that Robert. I will be making an appointment to see you on my next North Island trip later this year.

[Drew]

I have not adjusted the suspension at all as I am aware the BPF forks need adjusting back to front as in rebound before compression (unless i am misinformed).
Hmmm, that is interesting.

I piss around with several racers bikes at the track, and I always set rebound first. Is this not correct Robert? Dunno why I do it that way, and I'm only adjusting clickers so it might not make as big a difference.

[Robert Taylor]

That's interesting, even though i find it a million times better than I had from my previous bike, I find the standard setup better with 19Kg of load (while touring), than with just me. I am 95kg myself, and i find that situation odd.
I have not adjusted the suspension at all as I am aware the BPF forks need adjusting back to front as in rebound before compression (unless i am misinformed).

( Brutally or even a tad sarcastically ) its one of those situations where a lot of people will be happy ( or think they are happy) with what they have got. Hey thats okay, everyone makes their own choices and have their own levels of acceptance. But if you ride with a set of forks that do a really stellar job of absorbing abrupt bumps but with also providing excellent chassis pitch control then you realise what is possible.
Frankly there are a lot of bikes on the market ( and its getting worse with the Chinese made stuff ) where the suspension is frankly quite shocking. That manufacturers are finding cheaper and cheaper ways to make suspension is brutally obvious to those who have their eyes wide open and pay no credence to the marketing spin that is preached. But gullibility is also very rife.

Its always a good etiquette with any construction of forks to ALWAYS adjust rebound first. Not all forks have damping circuits that are either checkvalved to preclude cross talking or are totally seperate system ( compression totally in one leg and rebound totally in the other ) In a conventional set of cartridges that share both rebound and compression duties the rebound bypass flow path is a needle into an orifice. It flows both ways and will therefore also affect compression damping. On the other hand the compression damping adjuster is only reactive to shaft displacement and its adjustment has no discernible affect on rebound damping .

So with BPF type forks because they push so much fluid the effect of rebound adjustment cross talking has a really noticable affect on compression damping. Although we havent spent a lot of time on our ( frankly ) wonderful suspension dyno with this we have sort of approximated how you compensate. If for example you go inwards on rebound by half a turn ( i.e slow it down ) you may have to come outwards on compression by between one quarter to half a turn to bring back the compression force curve to about where it was before you made the rebound adjustment. This effect wont hold true for the amount of compensatory adjustment through the full range of the rebound needle because a straight mono tapered needle is not linear in response from one extremity of the range to the other.

Hope this helps!

[Robert Taylor]

Ok, I'm in your neighbourhood and I'm wondering about a v rod muscle. I know she's a power cruiser but I am wanting the best performance I can get from the bike. Any recommendations?

We have done a lot of work with V-Rods and their variations. On the Muscle model the front forks have a cartridge in one leg only. If you refer to my immediate previous post I ( scathingly ) mentioned that manufacturers are finding cheaper ways of making suspension. This is but one way, halve the cartridges and one fork just becomes a slave fork. The control in that stock cartridge is not so good. We have in stock upgrade piston kits for these and have fitted a few with excellent results.

Rear end, we have built more than a few Ohlins shocks for this model starting with a lower cost version but also excellent in performance i.e ride height control and compliance. Certainly way way better than the budget brands being peddled on the market, which actually are pretty similiar in price anyway. We also have accumulated a pile of parts to build a set of demo shocks for one of these in a slightly higher spec and these are going to be otherwise set aside for dealer tryouts. But you are welcome to try this set with no obligation to buy.

Call in and see us at some stage and we will show you what is possible

[Robert Taylor]

Hmmm, that is interesting.

I piss around with several racers bikes at the track, and I always set rebound first. Is this not correct Robert? Dunno why I do it that way, and I'm only adjusting clickers so it might not make as big a difference.

Drew youve correctly figured it but you're still a deviant

[Drew]

You're still a deviantNo one disputes it mate.:banana: