Brick walls, apexing, lane position, gear selection etc

[Mom]

A discussion on cornering.

Some recent, non anal musings from "me old china" Mr Formby got me thinking about cornering. I was out and about on Millie yesterday and spent most of the 300+ kms playing with various situations on corners in an attempt to see what works, and how it works. I managed to avoid crossing the centre line which is where the brick wall perspective comes in.

I have a really bad habit of straightening out corners and have had to really work on not hanging my head over the centre line (banging it on the brick wall) on right handers.

So what makes for a smooth and successful cornering technique? Is it your starting point for taking the turn? Is it the gear you select to take the corner? Is it when you apply the power on exit? Is it entry speed? Is it trailing the rear brake? Is it counter steering? Is it weighting the pegs? Is it something else?

Or is it some combination of the above?

What techniques do you use when cornering?

The one that I really needed at times yesterday was simply the lean angle, compensating for the wrong gear/speed in the corner. Learned heaps about my cornering ability.

[bluninja]

Your entry position to the corner sets everything else in place. Placing yourself on the best grippy bit of road and then adjusting your speed to match your forward visibility through the bend.

The old adage "slow in, fast out" always seems to work for me. On roads your positioning, speed setting and gear selection should all be complete before you enter the corner. All that leaves then is to turn into the corner and roll the throttle on. Reduce the number of things to think about and you have more brain power to deal with anything that happens as you go round the bend.

On a right hander I stay as far as I can to the left for better visibility and so that it's impossible on normal roads for my head to cross the centre line. As I pass the apex and the line straightens I exit upright about 1m inside the centre line. On Left handers I am at the centre line for visibility knowing that I will lean into my own side of the road.

[Maha]

I am the same Simon, re road position.
Gear selection/road position = maintainable corner speed, for me anyway.
My cornering set up starts upon exiting the previous corner. Exiting a corner in the right position, puts you in/on a good line for the next.

[DEATH_INC.]

What techniques do you use when cornering?
I find leaning the bike works best :msn-wink:

[Subike]

Hard on the brakes going into the bend, toss the fucker on its side, hang the tail out if it wants to drift, pin the throttle when halfway round, drag ya knee on the chip seal, call the ambulance.... oh dang, did it wrong again...

[Mom]

I find leaning the bike works best :msn-wink:

What about those really slow ones where you have to steer? Contrary eh?


drag ya knee on the chip seal, call the ambulance.... oh dang, did it wrong again...

You are definitely doing it wrong if getting your knee down results in an ambo call :lol:

[granstar]

Steer in a corner?

Position to right of lane nearing centre line for lefts leaning bike to inside of arc, to left of road for rights leaning into centre allows clearer visual of vanishing point and any unsuspecting cows on the road, counter steer, both cases looking to where i'm heading ahead and road condition coming up allowing reaction time to brake. Judge entry speed before entering corner, engine brake ...(slow down) a little to judged entry speed before entering corner manouver, open throttle out, smooth!
Braking in a corner will tip you off, if you mis-judge lean more, you do know how far your bike will lean don't you?.

[Drew]

I find leaning the bike works best :msn-wink:


What about those really slow ones where you have to steer? Contrary eh?
Huh? If my feet are on the pegs, or at least not touching the ground, I'm leaning the bike to corner.

I find not thinking about all this shit makes it much much easier to ride. Too much going on at any one time on a bike, for my feeble mind to keep up with.

[bluninja]

Steer in a corner?

Position to right of centre line for lefts leaning bike to inside of arc, to left of road for rights leaning into centre allows clearer visual of vanishing point , counter steer, both cases looking to where i'm heading ahead and road condition coming up. Judge entry speed before entering corner, engine brake in, open throttle out, smooth!
Braking in a corner will tip you off, if you mis-judge lean more, you do know how far your bike will lean don't you?.

Engine brake in, open throttle out?

So you have the bike wheel driving the engine causing the rear wheel to extend out, lowering ground clearance and increasing the wheelbase?

Then you open the throttle so you get transmission lash on the chain which may cause the back wheel to break traction on roads with poor grip?

If you brake with the brakes before the corner, match gears to your speed before you enter and then use the throttle on the way in you end up with better stability, traction, ground clearance and less load on the front tyre.

[Mom]

Huh? If my feet are on the pegs, or at least not touching the ground, I'm leaning the bike to corner.

I find not thinking about all this shit makes it much much easier to ride. Too much going on at any one time on a bike, for my feeble mind to keep up with.

Funny you should say that. I ride instinctively, I got my bike license in 1976, and learned to ride off road. I have managed to get myself out of some interesting situations on pure adrenaline before today, and have had to sit back and think about what happened after I came through in one piece. I don't normally play about like this while riding but I really wanted to see what happens when you do "this or that". The weighting of the pegs was interesting. I think we all do it without realising.

I joke about clenching my individual butt cheeks in traffic to end the boredom of the motorway commute in light traffic. You can actually almost change lanes if you have buns of steel :lol:

Counter steering "really" helps if you are in too high a gear though a corner and are about to go over the centre line. See, that is what I mean by how do you corner. Some of these instinctive things are worthy of a mention.

I also agree that not breaking down everything you do while out riding is the way to fly. However, I am also of the opinion that you should have a clue about what actions you can take, and how that gets you around corners.

[Badgermat]

Try this ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVWNinsmkAw

[Maha]

Steer in a corner?



Oh it can happen :( I almost had to indicate going around a 25km corner some years ago...didn't see the marker, Fuck! there it was, hard on the brakes, front wheel just over the white line but got around..:brick:

A brick wall moment.

[granstar]

So you have the bike wheel driving the engine causing the rear wheel to extend out, lowering ground clearance and increasing the wheelbase?

Then you open the throttle so you get transmission lash on the chain which may cause the back wheel to break traction on roads with poor grip?

If you brake with the brakes before the corner, match gears to your speed before you enter and then use the throttle on the way in you end up with better stability, traction, ground clearance and less load on the front tyre.

altered to clarify

Yup break before entering corner ( that's before you get there). I use engine brake as it works best with my bike ( British twin and don't get chain lash on a straight line, nor on my shaft drive XJ either :facepalm:) Agree use throttle- brakes-gears to reduce otherwise. Do not brake in corner with engine or otherwise, did mention that.

[russd7]

altered to clarify

Yup break before entering corner ( that's before you get there). I use engine brake as it works best with my bike ( British twin and don't get chain lash on a straight line, nor on my shaft drive XJ either :facepalm:) Agree use throttle- brakes-gears to reduce otherwise. Do not brake in corner with engine or otherwise, did mention that.
yup and when confronted with a real journey one must brake really hard :clap:

[Katman]

Do not brake in corner with engine or otherwise, did mention that.

Why not?

If you're cornering with the appropriate degree of safety margin, there's no reason why you can't brake in a corner.

[bluninja]

altered to clarify

Yup break before entering corner ( that's before you get there). I use engine brake as it works best with my bike ( British twin and don't get chain lash on a straight line, nor on my shaft drive XJ either :facepalm:) Agree use throttle- brakes-gears to reduce otherwise. Do not brake in corner with engine or otherwise, did mention that.

Ah you have a british twin...that's why you break before a corner ...most reliable bikes brake before a corner :Punk:

As for the transmission lash you get it on every bike whether chain or shaft, upright or bent over. It's just that breaking traction when upright and straight is not normally going to see you kissing tarmac. If you are happy with engine braking then good for you. I just think brake pads are cheaper than engines.

But thanks for the clarification, would you mind clearing this query up?

You say for lefties you go to the right of the centre line...apart from if you are already "offsiding" and arrive in that position why would you compromise your grip going into the corner for the extra visibility? From the right of the centre you will be leaning and turning against the camber, on the wrong side of the road and having to cross a white line, possibly with cats eyes to bump you on the way in.

[Drew]

Oh it can happen :( I almost had to indicate going around a 25km corner some years ago...didn't see the marker, Fuck! there it was, hard on the brakes, front wheel just over the white line but got around..:brick:

A brick wall moment.

Heading south, coming onto the desert road by chance?

Only time I ever scraped the fairing and pegs on my K2 thou was that fuckin 25k right hander. Dunno what the hell I was thinking, but went whoring around the left hander with the 25k corner sign, (I was fuckin flying by my standards). Fist full of front brake, back down as many gears as I could, and no choice but to let the brake go and chuck it in on faith.

[Drew]

Why not?

If you're cornering with the appropriate degree of safety margin, there's no reason why you can't brake in a corner.

Also, from a racer point of view, braking while turning is paramount to going fast. The braking force just has to be eased off to allow for the bike being leaned over.

[ducatilover]

This should be an excellent thread full of useful information

[Gremlin]

If you're cornering with the appropriate degree of safety margin, there's no reason why you can't brake in a corner.
If you set up for the corner correctly, then you shouldn't be braking mid corner.

I'll take a leaf out of the IAM book, for cornering.
I = Information
P = Position
S = Speed
G = Gear
A = Acceleration

Information is throughout all the steps, as you are constantly receiving it, evaluating it and using it. The other steps all follow each other. From information, you decide your position on the road. The gives you a suitable speed for the conditions, and subsequently, the correct gear to choose. Once the vanishing point increases you can apply acceleration out of the corner.

Once you get all that down pat, you can expect smoothness and flow to come from it

[Maha]

Heading south, coming onto the desert road by chance?

Only time I ever scraped the fairing and pegs on my K2 thou was that fuckin 25k right hander. Dunno what the hell I was thinking, but went whoring around the left hander with the 25k corner sign, (I was fuckin flying by my standards). Fist full of front brake, back down as many gears as I could, and no choice but to let the brake go and chuck it in on faith.

Between Waihi and Whangamata I think Drew, I was 2-up on the Triumph Sprint at the time.

[Laava]

altered to clarify

Yup break before entering corner ( that's before you get there). I use engine brake as it works best with my bike ( British twin and don't get chain lash on a straight line, nor on my shaft drive XJ either :facepalm:) Agree use throttle- brakes-gears to reduce otherwise. Do not brake in corner with engine or otherwise, did mention that.

So by the same token you will have to wait until the corner is finished before accelerating?
Doing all your braking before a corner is a beginners guide to, AFAIK.

[granstar]

Re braking...As Gremlin said.


set up for the corner correctly, then you shouldn't be braking mid corner....... decide your position on the road. The gives you a suitable speed for the conditions, and subsequently, the correct gear to choose. Once the vanishing point increases you can apply acceleration out of the corner..... expect smoothness and flow to come from it

Bluninja maybe I didn't say that well, you don't obviously extremely cross the line, position bike to the right.

Watched that "twist wrist II" youtube, explains it all a lot better.



when confronted with a real journey one must brake really hard

Reference of two riders in a well controlled braking judged stopping distance situation to avoid rear ending two real journey buses on Milford Road that panic braked head on at a narrow bridge, yes, near crapped ourselves.

[Katman]

If you set up for the corner correctly, then you shouldn't be braking mid corner.



So if you're going around a blind corner and an obstacle/hazard appears in your sight, you're just going to plow into it, are you?

Good luck with that.

[Banditbandit]

Steer in a corner?

Position to right of centre line for lefts leaning bike

What ?? - Hang about ... that puts you on the WRONG side of the centreline ..


I find not thinking about all this shit makes it much much easier to ride. Too much going on at any one time on a bike, for my feeble mind to keep up with.

Yeah .. me too .. I do tend to focus on the throttle as the smaller Bandit balances nicely in the corners on the throttle - and steers really well that way too ..


Why not?

If you're cornering with the appropriate degree of safety margin, there's no reason why you can't brake in a corner.

That depends on the bike .. many I have ridden stand up straight as soon as you touch the brake ... others corner quite well with gentle pressure or just tapping the front brake ..


So if you're going around a blind corner and an obstacle/hazard appears in your sight, you're just going to plow into it, are you?

Good luck with that.

Hit the brakes hard and stand the bike up then ...

[Katman]

That depends on the bike .. many I have ridden stand up straight as soon as you touch the brake ... others corner quite well with gentle pressure or just tapping the front brake ..



Hit the brakes hard and stand the bike up then ...

Yes, there is a tendency for a bike to want to stand up straight under braking but it will only do so if you let it.

[unstuck]

This should be an excellent thread full of useful information

Should be.<_<

[Grubber]

This should be an excellent thread full of useful information

Starting out just swimmingly so far it seems. Tui!

[Grubber]

Your entry position to the corner sets everything else in place. Placing yourself on the best grippy bit of road and then adjusting your speed to match your forward visibility through the bend.

The old adage "slow in, fast out" always seems to work for me. On roads your positioning, speed setting and gear selection should all be complete before you enter the corner. All that leaves then is to turn into the corner and roll the throttle on. Reduce the number of things to think about and you have more brain power to deal with anything that happens as you go round the bend.

On a right hander I stay as far as I can to the left for better visibility and so that it's impossible on normal roads for my head to cross the centre line. As I pass the apex and the line straightens I exit upright about 1m inside the centre line. On Left handers I am at the centre line for visibility knowing that I will lean into my own side of the road.

This should work fine, cause you appear to have some idea!


Engine brake in, open throttle out?

So you have the bike wheel driving the engine causing the rear wheel to extend out, lowering ground clearance and increasing the wheelbase?

Then you open the throttle so you get transmission lash on the chain which may cause the back wheel to break traction on roads with poor grip?

If you brake with the brakes before the corner, match gears to your speed before you enter and then use the throttle on the way in you end up with better stability, traction, ground clearance and less load on the front tyre.

This.......well i would perhaps refer to previous quote!
You always accelerate out of corner to create grip! Just sayin!

[Mom]

Forget the emergency cow in middle of road sceario, what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...

[ducatilover]

Forget the emergency cow in middle of road sceario, what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...

Trailing the rear tends to settle the bike and should be done in lower speed corners


In response to something mentioned before, rolling on the gas does not make the arse of most bikes drop, it raises and the most stable way to be is on a cracked open throttle in a corner and slowly transferring wieght to the rear.

Braking in corners can be done, but 99% of us will lowside in a panic in a corner like that. Or stand it up and hit a Yak or some shit.


But I dunno, I haven't been for a ride all year I think (not even sure about that one either!)

[Gremlin]

So if you're going around a blind corner and an obstacle/hazard appears in your sight, you're just going to plow into it, are you?
Shouldn't isn't the same as 100%. Mom is asking about general riding not emergency scenarios.


...what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...
Comfort braking, and a bad habit to get into. Why do you feel the need to brake? Can be a lot of factors, such as thinking you're coming the corner too hot (ie, didn't brake before the corner enough - possibly misread the corner), or you didn't setup for the corner correctly, and so on.

[george formby]

Forget the emergency cow in middle of road sceario, what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...

I do that a lot now. A consequence of practicing gymkhana techniques. Only on corners I'm not 100% sure of. Throttle open, speed controlled by rear brake, release to accelerate. It also means I can brake with front more confidently leaned over mid corner should I have to. I also use the front brake to initiate my turn in if I'm, er, ahem, being enthusiastic.

I take the line of maximum visibility into a corner, the vanishing point & conditions dictate my speed. I'm quite happy being over the white line into, not through, a left hander but do not make a habit of it. Tends to happen on the same sort of ride when I turn with the front brake.

I also ride some roads with no brakes, just on & off the throttle for the sheer hell of it. I like leaning.

To me it's just as important being disciplined in avoiding bad habits as it is developing good ones hence the brick wall syndrome. Stops me being lazy & getting caught out one day when I'm away with the fairies.

Oh, my bike only needs one gear. It's very thumpy.

[Katman]

Shouldn't isn't the same as 100%. Mom is asking about general riding not emergency scenarios.


You seem to be of the opinion that you shouldn't brake mid-corner.

I'm just saying that your speed should be such that, if you need to brake mid-corner, you can.

[george formby]

You seem to be of the opinion that you shouldn't brake mid-corner.

I'm just saying that your speed should be such that, if you need to brake mid-corner, you can.


Yesum, the geezer who pointed out that you can cross the centre line to increase visibility also battered into me that "You must ALWAYS be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear". He chased criminals for a living.

[bluninja]

This.......well i would perhaps refer to previous quote!
You always accelerate out of corner to create grip! Just sayin!

Hmmm.. so the fact you are constantly changing direction at a speed means you can't help but accelerate through a bend has escaped you. Or that I said I "use the throttle on the way in".

Acccelerating does not create grip......the only times a bike slides is when acceleration forces overcome traction.

Having the throttle open and rolling on causes the back wheel to squat raising ride height and shortening wheelbase and can balance the bike across both front and rear contact patch. I think you need to read th TOTW books and that cheesy video for TOTW2 again.

[sugilite]

Copied a post I made from a thread I started years back found at http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/117616-Ride-smoother-and-safer-%28and-get-paid-to-do-it!

As my racing became almost non existent, I'm pleased to report that my road riding km's have gone up. While it has not been a easy transition to the road I've found myself now riding in a fashion I thought I'd share for anyone interested.

It's all about Smooooooth. One of the key factors to this is the brakes, or more lack of. When approaching a corner, aim to arrive at the perfect speed for said corner without using your brakes. Then gently roll on the throttle going into, through and out the corner. (always stay on your side of the centre line)
That alone will bring the following benefits.
1. Will automatically give you a plan B should the unexpected happen....You can use your brakes and have time to change/alter your cornering line. Having a plan C is also a good idea (for instance both braking and altering your cornering line)

2. Gently accelerating in and through the corner takes the weight off the front wheel (read- much safer), settles the bikes suspension and throttle use can be used to change your cornering radius (more on this later)

3. The nature of this riding style dictates you look well ahead. Riders that do not look far ahead find their motorcycling experience to be a scary world where everything happens quickly and somewhat unpredictably.

4. The smoothness brings on the flow, and once the flow is achieved and maintained.

5. Your tyres, brake pads and fuel will all go a lot further saving you $$$$ which you can sink straight back into the bike

6. It's such a relaxing way to ride, you save on physical energy, especially over a long trip. Now understand this is physically easier on your body, but you still cannot afford to phone it in with your thought processes. BE EVER VIGILANT AT ALL TIMES.

7. Believe it or not, getting it right is FUN and rewarding.

Exercises I've used to speed up the learning process:
1. Since the key of the process is arriving at the corner at a perfect speed, I made up a game for myself, consisting of when approaching an object be it a corner, or catching up to traffic in front...what ever..I would roll off the throttle early, if I had to brake when approaching a corner or a line of traffic, I'd "lose points". Now for goodness sake set a large safety margin!!! I'm not suggesting for a moment, that should you need to brake, that you leave it late. You would be a total Dork or Dorkett if you rear ended a car while trying to "win" your game now wouldn't you?

2. In order to reduce velocity, down changing gears is a permitted activity. Though not to the detriment of your clutch!!! An over revving motor does not a smooth rider make! Also, while not necessarily aiding "smooth", one can try sitting upright and sticking elbows in the breeze (you may be suprised how well this can work at reducing speed).

Whats this using the throttle to tighten or widen your corner line?
Hell, I'm glad I asked that question
Simply put, you choose your intended line (or be at least attempting to!) and commit to it, sometimes you realize you need to be on a tighter or wider line than what you are. Using the above style, you are accelerating gently through the entire corner. If you reduce the throttle, your bike will tighten it's line, and if you apply more throttle the bike will widen it's line, all with no bodily input, let the bike do more of the work while also upping the smooooth and fun factor!

Finding a quiet section of road you know well to practise on can be very helpful, especially when trying out this style for the first few times. Up hill is better as it makes things easier, as you naturally decelerate faster for corners.

Anyway, practicing the above quickly allows you to master your approach speeds perfectly and you too can start riding the flow.

[Grubber]

Hmmm.. so the fact you are constantly changing direction at a speed means you can't help but accelerate through a bend has escaped you. Or that I said I "use the throttle on the way in".

Acccelerating does not create grip......the only times a bike slides is when acceleration forces overcome traction.

Having the throttle open and rolling on causes the back wheel to squat raising ride height and shortening wheelbase and can balance the bike across both front and rear contact patch. I think you need to read th TOTW books and that cheesy video for TOTW2 again.

Been there done that along time ago.
Acceleration through and out of the bend forces the back down and widens the tread to gain more grip, in other words it forces it into the ground.
Why are you constantly changing direction for??? How does it mean you cant help but accelerate???
If the back wheel squats, how does this raise your ride height???
Use the throttle on the way in?????
I thought you had read the TOTW????

Love to hear you explain all this.

[bluninja]

Been there done that along time ago.
Acceleration through and out of the bend forces the back down and widens the tread to gain more grip, in other words it forces it into the ground.
Why are you constantly changing direction for??? How does it mean you cant help but accelerate???
If the back wheel squats, how does this raise your ride height???
Use the throttle on the way in?????
I thought you had read the TOTW????

Love to hear you explain all this.

I'm assuming this is a troll cos you can't be that lacking in english skills and basic physics right?

So what forces the back wheel into the ground? Try this link (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
What is the definaition of acceleration? work it out and you'll answer the question yourself.
You've already stated that "Acceleration through and out of the bend forces the back down" I've made the assumption (silly I know) that you are referring to the back wheel, so seems strange about asking about the back wheel squatting. Refer to the article in the link and you will see that the back wheel (but not the rear of the bike) squats and pushes into the ground. Just stick your front wheel against a solid wall, rev your bike and let the clutch bite. Your back wheel squats, the rear (and your ride height) rises.
Use throttle on the way in? Of course if you aren't rolling on the throttle then you have engine braking into the corner and all that entails.
Yes I've read it, and absorbed the information that I want and can use into a form I understand. I don't feel the need to parrot the book.

[ducatilover]

I thought you had read the TOTW????



You obviously haven't. :laugh:

[Madness]

Motorcycles. Just ride the cunts.

[BigAl]

I find sticking your left foot out like Valentino helps to settle the bike whilst braking for the corners.:Punk:

[george formby]

Summat else to think about with corners.. We only really have control of the bike when we are accelerating, whether it be a little or a lot. With a closed throttle or on the brakes we rely on friction & gravity/inertia in one form or another, neither of which we control. The throttle is your friend. Like King Kenny points out in his book, which is the most controllable way to steer? With the front wheel on the brakes or with the rear wheel on the gas?

[Drew]

I find sticking your left foot out like Valentino helps to settle the bike whilst braking for the corners.:Punk:
Ever tried it?

Summat else to think about with corners.. We only really have control of the bike when we are accelerating, whether it be a little or a lot. With a closed throttle or on the brakes we rely on friction & gravity/inertia in one form or another, neither of which we control. The throttle is your friend. Like King Kenny points out in his book, which is the most controllable way to steer? With the front wheel on the brakes or with the rear wheel on the gas?
Yeah, gravity and friction have fuck all to do with it once the throttle is open.

Can anyone remember the last bike they saw Kenny Roberts on? My mental image shows him on a bike older than I am! Why the fuck would you take that advice, (meant for race tracks I might add), and try to apply it to modern road riding?






Anyone know the saying. "Youth is wasted on the young"?

How about this instead? "Freedom of thought is wasted, on nearly FUCKING EVERYONE"!

[Laava]

Anyone know the saying. "Youth is wasted on the young"?

How about this instead? "Freedom of thought is wasted, on nearly FUCKING EVERYONE"!

How about, "i'm not young. Let's get wasted!"

[Drew]

How about, "i'm not young. Let's get wasted!"I like it!

[unstuck]

How about, "i'm not young. Let's get wasted!"

Sounds good.:2thumbsup

[george formby]

Can anyone remember the last bike they saw Kenny Roberts on? My mental image shows him on a bike older than I am! Why the fuck would you take that advice, (meant for race tracks I might add), and try to apply it to modern road riding?




!

It had two wheels with rubber round em, same as Stoners. Point is moot. Can you save a front end slide better than a rear step out? It happens on public roads if the road surface catches you unawares. On a dodgy off camber corner I am happiest getting off the brakes early & on the gas early, even if it's just a whiff of throttle the front will not let go.

Any hoo, my point was that is more controllable to put the bike where you want it with the throttle than it is with the brakes. Yup, the theory is for track riding but for getting round any corner you need to see where you can start to accelerate from not where your braking finishes.

On roads we are familiar with it's habitual to ride neutrally, not a lot of throttle nor a lot of brakes but on new roads I use the brakes to maximise my visibility & the throttle to control the bike from the apex when I find it, the point of maximum lean. Not a lot in my case.

I'm not a racer, fast rider, trainer or anything particularly special but I have learned that if I fuck up a corner I need, desperately, to look where I want to go, lean more & use the throttle to achieve that.

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?

[russd7]

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?
sorry dude, cant take your advice, pretty much already ride like that anyway, personally to damned old hang feet off or slide off the side of the bike so learnt that even goldwings can scrape pegs succesfully by using the throttle in corners and the zzr hates you if you dont use the throttle, as far as riding neutrally, not normally somethin i do but i must say i had a gentle 500km pootle yesterday in the sun and was probably riding neutrally, no pics so no proof :yawn:

[Mooch]

get and read this http://www.amazon.com/Soft-Science-Roadracing-Motorcycles-Procedures/dp/096504503X

While not exactly about road riding it nicely breaks down the processes of riding. Read though end to end and start with the basics and work on one area at time. One of the best books I've read on explaining the thought process behind braking , cornering , acceleration etc.

[Grubber]

I'm assuming this is a troll cos you can't be that lacking in english skills and basic physics right?

So what forces the back wheel into the ground? Try this link (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
What is the definaition of acceleration? work it out and you'll answer the question yourself.
You've already stated that "Acceleration through and out of the bend forces the back down" I've made the assumption (silly I know) that you are referring to the back wheel, so seems strange about asking about the back wheel squatting. Refer to the article in the link and you will see that the back wheel (but not the rear of the bike) squats and pushes into the ground. Just stick your front wheel against a solid wall, rev your bike and let the clutch bite. Your back wheel squats, the rear (and your ride height) rises.
Use throttle on the way in? Of course if you aren't rolling on the throttle then you have engine braking into the corner and all that entails.
Yes I've read it, and absorbed the information that I want and can use into a form I understand. I don't feel the need to parrot the book.

So in actual fact, you are saying use throttle (not accelerate) to allow bike to even out through corner maybe so it has maximum length on axis.
That sounds better.
We still need to accelerate out in order to make rear wheel obtain grip, which is what it does. All this should be done whilst straightening bike upright so as to get maximum grip area on the ground.
The link you gave made the statements pertaining to weight onto rear wheel under acceleration. Converted 400lb weight to 100lb on back wheel under the gas. Which is what i have been saying.
I'm pretty sure we all know what acceleration is without trying to give it some major definition.
Just as an aside, you should do some of the California Superbike School. Think it may appeal to you.
If your definition is similar then i do apologize.

[Drew]

It had two wheels with rubber round em, same as Stoners. Point is moot. Can you save a front end slide better than a rear step out? It happens on public roads if the road surface catches you unawares. On a dodgy off camber corner I am happiest getting off the brakes early & on the gas early, even if it's just a whiff of throttle the front will not let go.

Any hoo, my point was that is more controllable to put the bike where you want it with the throttle than it is with the brakes. Yup, the theory is for track riding but for getting round any corner you need to see where you can start to accelerate from not where your braking finishes.

On roads we are familiar with it's habitual to ride neutrally, not a lot of throttle nor a lot of brakes but on new roads I use the brakes to maximise my visibility & the throttle to control the bike from the apex when I find it, the point of maximum lean. Not a lot in my case.

I'm not a racer, fast rider, trainer or anything particularly special but I have learned that if I fuck up a corner I need, desperately, to look where I want to go, lean more & use the throttle to achieve that.

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

[Grubber]

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

Pretty much what i would have said. Gas on as you go through with more roll on as you go out.
You need to gas on just to take up the slack of the smaller circumference of the tyre on the lean anyway.
All about balance for sure.

[george formby]

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

What I was thinkin & what was tapping out last night aren't quite the same thing, shouldn,t post under the influence. + I am just an average joe rider so offer opinions rather than facts.

The bold bit is how I ride & what is advocated, far less brake & throttle on the road I should imagine, though.
The scenarios I had in mind last night, lost in translation, featured a n00b rider coming into a tar seal corner warily due to dodgy road surface, camber, tightening radius, damp & shaded etc or just the fact it's a gravel road. Getting slower & slower & further off line when counter intuitively using the throttle holds the bike stable & on line with no dramas if the speed is appropriate. Spent the last year trying to teach this. The rider "gets" it now & the difference is like night & day in their riding regardless of conditions. Still a bit squiffy on steep downhills, though. Understandably, that's probably the hardest mental challenge.

We must all say "Hail" to the engineers & designers who make this wizardry happen for us, modern bikes & tires are amazing. Did a couple of 100k's yesterday on just about every kind of road surface available up here, mostly crap & it was brilliant. Not so much as a fraction of a moment even with knobblies on damp, shaded, muddy corners kindly supplied by the local tractor drivers.

[buggerit]

Forget the emergency cow in middle of road sceario, what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...

My lines are similar to Bluninjas,90% of my riding is with a pillion and use a cornering style where I set entry speed by engine braking and
smooth downshifting and am on throttle to some degree through all the corner and in a gear that will give good throttle response.
If I find entry speed to high I trailbrake with maybe a sniff of front brake and more countersteer.
The smooth in ,smooth out makes for a happier pillion as they are not constantly trying to stop themselves sliding forward and you can
achieve good corner speed without them being overly aware:innocent:

[Maha]

I have the rear brake covered most of the time. A little tap here and there before (and sometime during) a corner if needed, does occur. Whatever works for you really.
Slight pressure on the rear brake (just till you feel it grab) is a habitual for me while cornering downhill.

[skinman]

on the C50 I did trail the rear brake on corners but not on the BMW, completely different beasts in most ways, rear braking corners is common with cruiser riders from what I have observed. the beamer is much happier cornering with neutral or slight throttle on, does not like to slow late in a corner (gets hard to turn) with having a lot more lean angle available I have less concerns with cornering faster anway. Also has a huge amount of engine braking available if required (and if a bit careless with the throttle).
I guess it comes down to what works for you & the bike you ride, different machines require slightly different inputs to achieve what you want.

[Banditbandit]

What I was thinking .. and Drew said earlier .. If I think about it I fuck it up .. there's too much to think about ...

Slow in fast out, use the throttle to control the bike ... what else do you need?

(I rarely touch the brakes ... except in emergencies, or maybe just a tap or two on the front if I think I'm going in too hot ...)

The bikes are so responsive that a small twist of the throttle either way changes the direction of the bike .. counter steering is good too ... but I don't think about that - I focus on the throttle ...

[Banditbandit]

on the C50 I did trail the rear brake on corners but not on the BMW, completely different beasts in most ways, rear braking corners is common with cruiser riders from what I have observed. the beamer is much happier cornering with neutral or slight throttle on, does not like to slow late in a corner (gets hard to turn) with having a lot more lean angle available I have less concerns with cornering faster anway. Also has a huge amount of engine braking available if required (and if a bit careless with the throttle).
I guess it comes down to what works for you & the bike you ride, different machines require slightly different inputs to achieve what you want.

Yeah ... My R100GS PD was like that ... throttle on through the corners ... bugger to ride behind someone - especially if they hold a steady speed in the corners .. suddenly you're in danger of running into them ...

[george formby]

Yeah ... My R100GS PD was like that ... throttle on through the corners ... bugger to ride behind someone - especially if they hold a steady speed in the corners .. suddenly you're in danger of running into them ...

This has happened to me a few times over the years, good, safe following distance, get into some corners, watch the road not the rider ahead & whoa! Whaddya know? Your staring up their baffles.

Just summit else to factor in really, expect the unexpected.

And just to confirm Drew's take on things, the wee DT's rear wheel decided it wanted to have closer look at some flowers in the grass verge today on a dirty, uphill right hand corner. More yee hah than oh feck, though. Cheeky little bike. So yeah, na, yeah, i'm just adding grist to the mill really.:laugh:

[russd7]

get into some corners, watch the road not the rider ahead & whoa! Whaddya know? Your staring up their baffles

yeah, have a friend that i ride with often and we genrally ride similar lines, problem is when he fucks up so do i :confused:
target fixation lol

[granstar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1013015_567951293247980_146770302_n.jpg

[russd7]

pic

yeah but when have you seen me hang off the whisperjet like that :eek:

[Mushu]

After reading the whole thread I'll ring in with my 2c

Firstly the physics of the bike.
I always open the throttle as early as possible in a corner and continue to open it smoothly through the corner, more pressure on the rear wheel equals more grip, and more ground clearance. The front does fuck all in a corner, if it slips its because you aren't using enough throttle at your speed and lean angle (it is possible to make it through a corner with the front wheel in the air) For those that haven't read TOTW2 it's the opposing pressure from the drive chain/driveshaft that pulls the back wheel inwards and causes throttle to raise the rear end of the bike.

I never back off during a corner (except in an emergency) either stop opening the throttle or use the rear brake to tighten your line.

I don't really think of all that too much though, the most important thing to me when approaching a corner is my line.
I aim to exit the corner in the inside because it is far easier to run wider if you need to than it is to tighten your line giving me a safety margin plus it tends to work out since the majority of the time a corner is followed by one going the opposite way so exiting on the inside sets me up to enter the next one on the outside.

[SPP]

Mushu, for the most part yeah but you can lose the front when on throttle if you try to tighten the turn at the same time... so I’m told.

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

Lines; Choosing a line that places you to the inside is fine so long as you remember that there’s an opposite lane with traffic heading toward you.

You know that you go where you look, so looking through a right hand corner where you can seen across the opposite lane can lead to you cutting to close or crossing the centre line... I think that’s the “brick wall” thing Mom was talking about. A mate who had done popo pursuit training said to imagine a tunnel around right hand bends and choose a line that puts you in the middle of your own lane at exit.

[Drew]

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

More of a guidline than a rule. You can be accelerating out of a tight turn, and leaning into a fast turn with the throttle wide open.

Do it all the time at Manfield coming out of 'splash'.

[Mushu]

Mushu, for the most part yeah but you can lose the front when on throttle if you try to tighten the turn at the same time... so I’m told.

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

Lines; Choosing a line that places you to the inside is fine so long as you remember that there’s an opposite lane with traffic heading toward you.

You know that you go where you look, so looking through a right hand corner where you can seen across the opposite lane can lead to you cutting to close or crossing the centre line... I think that’s the “brick wall” thing Mom was talking about. A mate who had done popo pursuit training said to imagine a tunnel around right hand bends and choose a line that puts you in the middle of your own lane at exit.

Well we are talking about on the road so you keep your speed down enough that you can change your line

If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center) grip is the limit at which you can do that, and as I said, keep a large safety margin on the road.

While aiming to exit a corner on the inside you turn into a corner very late so visibility is really good especially on roads where corners are close together

I will admit that on tight right handers my head does cross the centerline but not as much as you might think since as I start to get close to the center I also bring the bike upright but it's easy to run wide when I need to so it's never been a problem.

[Drew]

If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center) If you're on a neutral throttle, maybe. But if the bike is pulling as you lean over, it sorta works itself out.

[Mushu]

If you're on a neutral throttle, maybe. But if the bike is pulling as you lean over, it sorta works itself out.

Yea, I was meaning for any given constant speed you must increase the throttle, if you're already accelerating the engine speeds up on it's own.

[SPP]

More of a guidline than a rule. You can be accelerating out of a tight turn, and leaning into a fast turn with the throttle wide open.

Do it all the time at Manfield coming out of 'splash'.

You�re probably right. The guys who�ve said that were trying to keep us upright.




If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center) grip is the limit at which you can do that, and as I said, keep a large safety margin on the road.
.

I understand the tyre circumference thing but truthfully, I can't remember ever having to adjust my riding to compensate. Maybe on long arcing bends I'm not going fast enough to notice much change.

Throttle; I was explicitely told by an instructor to delay my throttle roll because I had a habit of rolling on too early thinking it would stabilise the bike (rolling on before finished setting lean angle). Funnily enough I picked up the habit reading twist of the wrist and was corrected by a Cali School Instructor.

True though, on the road I'm usually slow enough to get away with almost anything.

[Mushu]

Throttle; I was explicitely told by an instructor to delay my throttle roll because I had a habit of rolling on too early thinking it would stabilise the bike (rolling on before finished setting lean angle). Funnily enough I picked up the habit reading twist of the wrist and was corrected by a Cali School Instructor.

True though, on the road I'm usually slow enough to get away with almost anything.

Without copying the whole TOTW, after he states that the throttle should be opened as early as possible he goes on in the next sentence to say you should complete steering before you get on the throttle because steering can effect your ability to smoothly apply the throttle.

[SPP]

Mom, a sure fire way to enjoy a twisty road is to slow down on the straight bits (like really slow down).

Mushu, I read your posts, took them as blanket comments and thought what a bunch of horseshit. The truth of it is, I absolutely agree with them for some parts of a corner but not at all for other parts of a corner.



Without copying the whole TOTW, after he states that the throttle should be opened as early as possible he goes on in the next sentence to say you should complete steering before you get on the throttle because steering can effect your ability to smoothly apply the throttle.

Yeah that bit. Thinking about it, if I'm still increasing lean I haven't completed steering... Enough of this, time to ride.

[Mushu]

Mushu, I read your posts, took them as blanket comments and thought what a bunch of horseshit. The truth of it is, I absolutely agree with them for some parts of a corner but not at all for other parts of a corner.

Yeah that bit. Thinking about it, if I'm still increasing lean I haven't completed steering... Enough of this, time to ride.

What part of what I say is horseshit, and during what part of a corner?

Like I said, I don't want to copy the book over here, but it also says that steering should be completed as quickly as possible for the conditions and only once per corner.

[george formby]

What part of what I say is horseshit, and during what part of a corner?

Like I said, I don't want to copy the book over here, but it also says that steering should be completed as quickly as possible for the conditions and only once per corner.

I've read & watched TOTW I & II & numerous other educational books & vids. The basics seem to be pretty constant & from each I have gleaned a bit more knowledge. In all fairness it's impossible to cover all scenarios on the road, even something as blatant as riding around a corner.

Close to home I have 2 double apex corners & a triple apex corner, they all have undulations & variations in camber, the triple apex has a suspension battering compression just as you line up for the exit if your pressing on. If your following a campervan it just makes your suspension wallow & throws you off line if your caught by surprise.

Never come across the technique for corners like this in "how to" vids & books. What I've learned from them has helped me understand the dynamics & draw my own conclusions.

So I guess I'm saying use what you learn to become wiser not dogmatic. Or perhaps never stop learning is a better way to put it.

[Katman]

I've read & watched TOTW I & II & numerous other educational books & vids. The basics seem to be pretty constant & from each I have gleaned a bit more knowledge. In all fairness it's impossible to cover all scenarios on the road, even something as blatant as riding around a corner.

Close to home I have 2 double apex corners & a triple apex corner, they all have undulations & variations in camber, the triple apex has a suspension battering compression just as you line up for the exit if your pressing on. If your following a campervan it just makes your suspension wallow & throws you off line if your caught by surprise.

Never come across the technique for corners like this in "how to" vids & books. What I've learned from them has helped me understand the dynamics & draw my own conclusions.

So I guess I'm saying use what you learn to become wiser not dogmatic. Or perhaps never stop learning is a better way to put it.

That is a perfect example of the limited value of books like A Twist of the Wrist.

[Mushu]

I've read & watched TOTW I & II & numerous other educational books & vids. The basics seem to be pretty constant & from each I have gleaned a bit more knowledge. In all fairness it's impossible to cover all scenarios on the road, even something as blatant as riding around a corner.

Close to home I have 2 double apex corners & a triple apex corner, they all have undulations & variations in camber, the triple apex has a suspension battering compression just as you line up for the exit if your pressing on. If your following a campervan it just makes your suspension wallow & throws you off line if your caught by surprise.

Never come across the technique for corners like this in "how to" vids & books. What I've learned from them has helped me understand the dynamics & draw my own conclusions.

So I guess I'm saying use what you learn to become wiser not dogmatic. Or perhaps never stop learning is a better way to put it.



As far as the bad road surface goes it's as simple as slow down to a speed where you can manage it. (I say you because it all depends on your level of skill).

As far as multiple apexs goes, read the books again, they are covered in there.

Twist and other books like it are based on how to ride near the limit of grip at a track, you have to slow down to account for the crappy surface and moving obstacles we all need to deal with on the road, the techniques applied without the speed is safe on the road though.