Ultrabatt lithium batteries

[Pussy]

Looks like these Ultrabatt batteries are just the shizz! Thanks for the tech info, Bogan! And available from Fast Bike Gear too.
I know where I'll be going if I decide to get a lithium battery for the sem fiddy...

[nzspokes]

Looks like these Ultrabatt batteries are just the shizz! Thanks for the tech info, Bogan! And available from Fast Bike Gear too.
I know where I'll be going if I decide to get a lithium battery for the sem fiddy...

What was wrong with kick starts?

[AllanB]

$369 for the battery, $133 for a trickle charger ........... no sir I'll stick with my Motobatt - it has been going strong for 4 years so far.

[Pussy]

To be fair, one of the sem fiddys here still has its OEM Yuasa. The other one needed replacing after a period of inactivity with the radar detector still plugged in. The original OEM one just gets a battery tender on it from time to time, and is still performing well after 6 1/2 years.

[blackdog]

LMAO!

Have you not tried a Shorai?

Read the British Leyland thread for a laugh, seems Scumdog is getting blowjobs from Ed.

[Sable]

MotoBatts offer the best bang (zap?) for buck.

[Grubber]

To be fair, one of the sem fiddys here still has its OEM Yuasa. The other one needed replacing after a period of inactivity with the radar detector still plugged in. The original OEM one just gets a battery tender on it from time to time, and is still performing well after 6 1/2 years.

I'm the same, my Daytona is now nearly 6 years old and i'm still running the original battery and it still starts on a cold winters morning. I don't even put a trickle charge on it.:yes:

[Pussy]

I'm the same, my Daytona is now nearly 6 years old and i'm still running the original battery and it still starts on a cold winters morning. I don't even put a trickle charge on it.:yes:

Yep... I guess the sky doesn't fall down if you don't have a lithium battery! I am a big fan of conventional Yuasa batteries, although I will go for an Ultrabatt if I do want to change.

[bogan]

$369 for the battery, $133 for a trickle charger ........... no sir I'll stick with my Motobatt - it has been going strong for 4 years so far.

Eh? does a 919 need 360CCA, would have though the $289 240CCA would be plenty...

And chances are you don't need a trickle charger if you ride it often, self discharge rates on LiFePO4 are lower than for lead acid so a few months off should be fine. The BMS ensures there is no need to buy/borrow a balance charger every now and then to get its optimal lifetime as with some other brands.

Also, these are the standout choices for racebikes running total loss systems. Lightweight technology with a low voltage cutout to prevent you just being left with an expensive brick if you forget to charge it between races...

Tiny wee things are good for modders too when low space and weird installation angles are desired.

[Pussy]

$289.00 for an Ultrabatt for my sem fiddy. Worthy of consideration...

[nzspokes]

$369 for the battery, $133 for a trickle charger ........... no sir I'll stick with my Motobatt - it has been going strong for 4 years so far.

Fuck that. Stick with mine thanks.

[Pussy]

The feedback for Fast Bike Gear looks pretty good, too!

[george formby]

Batteries? Don't talk to me about bloody batteries. Just returned from bike shop to drop off the motobatt which is to big & pick up the Yuasa recommended by Yamaha NZ. It's to bloody big too. Don't care if it runs on weasel piss & fruit juice, I just want one that fits!!! K'inell.:oi-grr:

[Pussy]

Batteries? Don't talk to me about bloody batteries. Just returned from bike shop to drop off the motobatt which is to big & pick up the Yuasa recommended by Yamaha NZ. It's to bloody big too. Don't care if it runs on weasel piss & fruit juice, I just want one that fits!!! K'inell.:oi-grr:

Get an Ultrabatt! :D

[bogan]

Get an Ultrabatt! :D

It'll fit, and probably even leave space to fit a sammich in there too :eek:

[Drew]

It'll fit, and probably even leave space to fit a sammich in there too :eek:And lets be honest, a sammich stored is ten bucks saved at the coffee shop!

[bogan]

And lets be honest, a sammich stored is ten bucks saved at the coffee shop!

Makes it a really neat lunchbox to impress your classmates with too :2thumbsup

[Madness]

The feedback for Fast Bike Gear looks pretty good, too!

Liam is a stand-up guy & I wouldn't hesitate in recommending him & his company. I too however am more than happy with my Yuasa & have no inclination to change.

[AllanB]

Eh? does a 919 need 360CCA, would have though the $289 240CCA would be plenty...
.

Did what the web linky said - match CCA shit to what a standard is. Plus if the previous KB threads on the new fancy pants batteries is true the worst thing you can do is insert a under rated one as it will not cope. Mottobatts use some fancy pants sealed gel fibre stuff apparently, can be mounted anyway up or down! The are standard battery size though so no extra room for sammies.

[bogan]

Did what the web linky said - match CCA shit to what a standard is. Plus if the previous KB threads on the new fancy pants batteries is true the worst thing you can do is insert a under rated one as it will not cope. Mottobatts use some fancy pants sealed gel fibre stuff apparently, can be mounted anyway up or down! The are standard battery size though so no extra room for sammies.

Yeh, if they need over 240CCA then the big-un is the go, I just thought the 250CCA+ was up there and only for large v-twins or 1400cc+ sizes. Looks like other sites recommend 210CCA batteries for it, so maybe it just has an overrated one in there currently? Maybe even downsize by two metric sammiches with the medium option...

[Drew]

Yeh, if they need over 240CCA then the big-un is the go, I just thought the 250CCA+ was up there and only for large v-twins or 1400cc+ sizes. Looks like other sites recommend 210CCA batteries for it, so maybe it just has an overrated one in there currently? Maybe even downsize by two metric sammiches with the medium option...A metric sammich, and a moosley bar would give the right cranking amps I reckon.

[ducatilover]

Mottobatts use some fancy pants sealed gel fibre stuff apparently, can be mounted anyway up or down! The are standard battery size though so no extra room for sammies.

Nothing fancy, just absorbed glass matt.
My ZX6thing has a Motobatt and a bit smaller than recommended size so I would fit it in funny places (down my pants and stuff), current record is 6 months hooked up on the bike without starteng, still turned over fine at just over 10v and fired up when the fuel got there eventually :niceone:

Best $72 I ever spent, I reckon.

[Drew]

Nothing fancy, just absorbed glass matt.
My ZX6thing has a Motobatt and a bit smaller than recommended size so I would fit it in funny places (down my pants and stuff), current record is 6 months hooked up on the bike without starteng, still turned over fine at just over 10v and fired up when the fuel got there eventually :niceone:

Best $72 I ever spent, I reckon.Yeah. The Motobatt in my ol' RF is a few years old now. Been well and truely neglected, and still turned my tractor over for ten or fifteen minutes before it started. And that thing runs a bigger starter than a Hilman avenger.

Turned the CBR over for about the same amount of time while I fucked around getting it sorted in the tracter too.

Great batteries.

[AllanB]

Nothing fancy, just absorbed glass matt.
.

In my shed that was fancy after decades of mixing water with those wee packets of evil stuff the old lead batteries came with. And that shit made a right mess when spilled.

I also notice a lot of car batteries are sealed now - I'm pretty sure a lot are still old tech as someone told me they rely on condensation within the sealed unit to keep the water levels constant. Could be a load of crap. I've had my XR6 3 years, no idea how old the battery was when I purchased it as the date sticker is gone - still preforms well but that is about the accepted life out of a car battery cranking over a big arse six cylinder engine.

[White trash]

Yeah. The Motobatt in my ol' RF is a few years old now. Been well and truely neglected, and still turned my tractor over for ten or fifteen minutes before it started. And that thing runs a bigger starter than a Hilman avenger.

Turned the CBR over for about the same amount of time while I fucked around getting it sorted in the tracter too.

Great batteries.

Is the RF out of my garage finally! Hellaluja!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FastBikeGear]

Yeh, if they need over 240CCA then the big-un is the go, I just thought the 250CCA+ was up there and only for large v-twins or 1400cc+ sizes. Looks like other sites recommend 210CCA batteries for it, so maybe it just has an overrated one in there currently? Maybe even downsize by two metric sammiches with the medium option...

All you need to do us ensure that your replacement starter battery has the same or higher CCA rating as your OEM battery

We always recommend if in doubt go the next size up. I love overkill especially when it comes to zombies and batteries.

[AllanB]

Re Fastbike Gear - I have purchased bits off them before, got a loud arse horn hooked up from them. Shit I even ordered hand grips off them as the price is good and I did not need to get up from in front of the log burner!!!

Extremely good to deal with, absolutely hassle free. As it should be of course!

[nzspokes]

Re Fastbike Gear - I have purchased bits off them before, got a loud arse horn hooked up from them. Shit I even ordered hand grips off them as the price is good and I did not need to get up from in front of the log burner!!!

Extremely good to deal with, absolutely hassle free. As it should be of course!

So those horns are that loud? I found the perfect place to mount one to, where did you put yours?

I now have a gap where and exhaust used to go.:shifty:

[AllanB]

So those horns are that loud? I found the perfect place to mount one to, where did you put yours?

I now have a gap where and exhaust used to go.:shifty:

Absolutely Fuck Off outta my way loud!!!!!

I've mounted mine stealth - under the bike to one of the mounts designed to take a main stand.

[nzspokes]

Absolutely Fuck Off outta my way loud!!!!!

I've mounted mine stealth - under the bike to one of the mounts designed to take a main stand.

Thats close to where I would put it, just under the swingarm is a mount for the canister that the US bikes have. With the Y pipe gone that would be a good spot right out of the way.

[FastBikeGear]

Mission critical. Ultrabatt Lithium batteries with the built in over voltage protection, short circuit, built in cell load balancing charger and anti-bricking protection they have become the first choice lithium batteries for mission critical applications where failure is not an option! They are used by several Formula 1 teams, in aeroplanes (reauires CAA certification) by many superbike and MotoGP teams, in aeroplanes, marine drones and we have even sold them for use in ride on lawn mowers (some ride on mowers are mission critical!) ....our latest customer is using one in very cool grass track kart. Not sure if this is as mission critical as an aeroplane though. Many thanks for the pic of your very cool kart Steve. (The battery is housed in the aluminum box on the left behind the drivers seat.)

A free set of FastBikeGear stickers to the first person who can identify the Superbike rider in the photo.

[jellywrestler]

A free set of FastBikeGear stickers to the first person who can identify the Superbike rider in the photo. craig sherriffs

[FastBikeGear]

Well we think this FastBikeGear customer's ride on lawn mower might be approaching mission critical classification?

Yep that is a Ducati engine in it!

Oh and it's also fitted with one of our programmable Ignitech ignition systems (Our customer felt it might need a little power boost)

[FastBikeGear]

craig sherriffs

Nope Craig is using our radiator guards but the photo is not Craig.

[jellywrestler]

NopeCraig is using our radiator guards but the photo is not Craig.

ohh and he doesn't ride a kawasaki now i think of it, is it marcus beagley?

[Edbear]

ohh and he doesn't ride a kawasaki now i think of it, is it marcus beagley?

Craig and Marcus use Shorai batteries. Marcus is a dealer for them.

That's Nick Cole in the pic.

[FastBikeGear]

Craig and Marcus use Shorai batteries. Marcus is a dealer for them.

That's Nick Cole in the pic.


Ed Congratulations your set of FastBikeStickers is on their way.

[FastBikeGear]

ohh and he doesn't ride a kawasaki now i think of it, is it marcus beagley?

Sorry not Marcus. Marcus has been one of our Titax lever sponsored riders but he's not the rider in the photo.

[Katman]

Sorry not Marcus. Marcus has been one of our Titax lever sponsored riders but he's not the rider in the photo.

Is it Aaron Crafar?

[FastBikeGear]

Stock notice.

Just to advise guys we have fewer that 30 Ultrabatt 400 and 600 batteries in stock at the moment.

We have deliberately let our stock levels fall as we will shortly be recieving the new 3rd Generation Lithium Batteries and once these are avaliable you will understandably not want to purchase the 2nd generation batteries.

The current 2nd generartion batteries have a four function Battery Management System built into them that provides

Anti-bricking protection (prevents Lithium battery's turning into expensive bricks if they are accidentally fully discharged)
Over voltage protection
Cell balancing
Short cirucit protection.
[/LIST]


We are under the usual non disclosure terms until the formal announcement by Ultrabatt on what the new innovations are with the third generation batteries ...but I can advise that due to much larger production volumes and some new technology the pricing is going to fall dramatically and this is one of the key reasons we wish to give you a heads up so that you can make the choice whether you want to hold off ordering until we can reveal the new technology and pricing.

Depite the pricing on the new models being dramatically less expensive, we won't be discounting our existing stock because the pricing is extremely competitive already with other brands, even with earlier 1st generation lithium batteries that don't have built in BMS systems.

Current models and pricing

Ultrabatt 200's (all sold out)
Ultrabatt 400s, 728 grams, Built-in full four function BMS, 240 CCA, $289 (less than 30 left)
Ultrabatt 600s, 1100 grams, Built-in full four function BMS 360 CCA, $359 (less than 20 left)

We expect this stock will run out in the next few days and there may be a gap of a couple of weeks while we wait for the new ones to arrive.

[Edbear]

Ed Congratulations your set of FastBikeStickers is on their way.

Cool! :2thumbsup

It wasn't difficult. I feel a bit guilty as I know Nick well and when his name is on the pic... :innocent:

[jellywrestler]

Cool! :2thumbsup

It wasn't difficult. I feel a bit guilty as I know Nick well and when his name is on the pic... :innocent:

yeah I knew too, am one of his sponsors, but didn't want a sticker...

[Edbear]

yeah I knew too, am one of his sponsors, but didn't want a sticker...

Now I feel even more guilty...:facepalm:

[FastBikeGear]

Stock notice.

Just to advise guys we have fewer that 30 Ultrabatt 400 and 600 batteries in stock at the moment.

We have deliberately let our stock levels fall as we will shortly be recieving the new 3rd Generation Lithium Batteries and once these are avaliable you will understandably not want to purchase the 2nd generation batteries.

The current 2nd generartion batteries have a four function Battery Management System built into them that provides


Anti-bricking protection (prevents Lithium battery's turning into expensive bricks if they are accidentally fully discharged)
Over voltage protection, to prevent cells being damaged by being over charged.
Cell balancing.
Short cirucit protection.



We are under the usual non disclosure terms until the formal announcement by Ultrabatt on what the new innovations are with the third generation batteries ...but I can advise that due to much larger production volumes and some new technology the pricing is going to fall dramatically and this is one of the key reasons we wish to give you a heads up so that you can make the choice whether you want to hold off ordering until we can reveal the new technology and pricing.

Depite the pricing on the new models being dramatically less expensive, we won't be discounting our existing stock because the pricing is extremely competitive already with other brands, even with earlier 1st generation lithium batteries that don't have built in BMS systems.

Current models and pricing

Ultrabatt 200's (all sold out)
Ultrabatt 400s, 728 grams, Built-in full four function BMS, 240 CCA, $289 (less than 30 left)
Ultrabatt 600s, 1100 grams, Built-in full four function BMS 360 CCA, $359 (less than 20 left)

We expect this stock will run out in the next few days and there may be a gap of a couple of weeks while we wait for the new ones to arrive.

After all the interest generated in this thread and the other thread by the technical discussions over the last two days ....we seem to have got quite surge in orders today.

I can say with a very very high degree of certainty that we are definitely going to run out of stock before the next shipment of the new third generation batteries arrive. All I can do to offer you consolement if you end up waiting is to promise you that you will get the benefit of the very dramatic price drop.

[FastBikeGear]

It's a measure of Lambda!

Ok I will start.
In general:
- Solar Trickle Chargers. In theory if had something outside with a Solar Trickle Charger hooked up to the LiPO and used very little power.........how long could I expect the battery to last? As effectively the battery would be maintainted while sun was up. So V would remain high. Can they tolerate consistent trickle charging?

Electric Motorbike (or any vehicle really):
As A123 hits financial difficulty - its is best to custom build a battery pack or COULD it be financially viable to say bolt a few off the shelf LiPo 12V? Or is that the dumbest idea ever?

What a bloody fantastic question! You have proably asked the smartest question possible.

OK this is going to be a bit of a rapid brain dump that probably needs a bit of re-editing later so don't pick too many holes in it ...but here I go.

I run solar panels on the roof of my bus. In between the solar panels and the batteries I have a fairly sophisticated BMS (well it was sophisticated by the standards of a couple of years ago).
I run two battery banks (House batteries and starter batteries) and the BMS I use controls the charging profile to each battery pack and also manages when it takes input power from the solar panel, alternator or the onboard 230V charger. The BMS monitors the conditions of the battery constantly to determine the best charging profile. It is sophisticated enough that even if the voltage from the solar panels is less than what it determines the batteries need at any instance it can step up the voltage to a higher voltage. When I installed it I advised it what battery chemistry I was using. It takes this into account in manageing the charge and maintenance profile because lead acid batteries, AGM batteries and Lithium batteries all prefer different charging profiles.

The little CTEK smart chargers that we and everyone else sells for lead acid batteries are acutally pretty clever BMS (Battery Managemetn System) units, Hence their popularity and OEM use by Ferrari, BMW and Masserati etc.
They are designed to provide the ideal charge profile for your lead acid battery, The little MX5 units have multiple profiles in them for small motorcycle batteries, larger car batteries, desulphating recovering modes and even cold charging modes. They also have a little comfort LED array on them that indicates at which step the charge profile is at. When I used to use lead acid batteries I had a CTEK smart charger plugged into my bike whenever it wasn't being ridden. CTEK advise to do this to increase the life of a LEAD ACID battery. Remeber that protecting and extending the life of any type of battery is the key function of a BMS. (Note LEAD ACID in the last sentence is in bold letters because this is not also true for Lithium batteries).


It is the job of the BMS to control the charging profile to suit the battery pack technology in use. Lithium batteries like being charged reasonably robustly. A good charging voltage is 14.4 Volts. Once the battery is brought up to full capacity you ideally want to cut the charging until the capacity drops to a prescibed level. The problem with this is that a Lithium batteries voltage remains much more constant as it's capacity is depleted. So determining when to start and cut off the charging is much harder to on a Lithium battery than it is to do on a legacy lead acid battery.

The BMS in my bus deals with this by counting the electrons in and out. (Not literally but it's a good thinking picture). What it does is measure how much power has gone into the battery and how much power has left the battery on an ongoing basis as a running count (A bit like how you count cards in black jack if you are trying to beat the house). It even has a meter that displays this 'running count' battery capacity in real time. This is far more accurate than trying to guess capacity from a voltage reading.

So a BMS in a lead acid battery is ideally a fairly sophisticated microprosser device rather than a simple assortment of zenor diodes, hence the more advanced ones like that used inside the Ultrabatt batteries actually have a sophisticate microprocessor controller on the BMS circuit board.

One interesting point to interject here is that once you hava a battery with a microprocessor powerd BMS inside it you can also use the microprocessor to incorporate data logging capability. So that with the right interface you can interrogate how the battery has be charged and used and how it has performed. ....watch this space Ultrabatt (Who are a divsion of a large instrumentation company) have some interesting stuff in this area that they have already revealed to us. I will see if I can find some photos of tis to put in a following post. Some of the Lithium battery powered tools also have microprocesors in the batteries and the service technicians can see stuff like how many times you have fully flattened the batteries.

Coming back to Lithium batteries. Lithium batteries lose only a small percentage of their storage capacity (rated in amp hours) when they are sitting on a shelf. They lose an even smaller percentage of their starting capacity (rated in CCAs) when they sit on a shelf. So unless you have systems on your bike that draw current when your bike is not in use your really don't need to have your battery constantly being topped up. We can take a battery out of storage after a year of not being used, plug it into a bike and start it up.

Putting a lithium battery on permanent charge is unnecessary and best practice is not to leave mains devices plugged in and turned on unless their is a good reason to (Environment, power bils, electrical safety and all that). However none of these other than safety comes into play with a solar charger. Why did I exclude safety. Well a lithium batery that is not being charged with a load balancing BMS can have a cell go into thermal runaway. Understand that thermal runaway is sub optimal in the the way that crossing the beams in ghost busting terms can lead to the very fabric of the universe becoming unstable.

So back to your original question.

Lithium batteries don't like being constantly trickle charged. A nominal 12V Lithium battery ideally likes being charged at 14.4 volts with a reasonably robust current of 3 amps or more. If you watch the voltage out put on many car battery charges (with a volt meter) you will see the voltage output typically ramp up to much more than this when use on small capacity motorcycle batteries (a whole other discussion). My 'Repco' special car battery will jump up to over 15 volts when I use it to fast charge an Ultrabatt battery and at this point I feel inclined to unplug it. Which is exactly the reason why we recommend you don't use a Repco special battery charger on Ultrabatt batteries.

And even if your have over voltage protection you proabably don't want to continually be testing if your overvoltage protection is still working. I ahve never seen the value in testing a parachute any more than you absolutely have to!

So know unless you are using a sophisticated BMS that you absolutely trust will never fail I wouldn't leave a Lithium battery constantly on charge...why would you take the risk when their is absoultuely no benefit.

Remember with electronics it's not a case of if it will fail but when.

[FastBikeGear]

Bad news and good news.

Bad news:

We only have a handful of the current generation Ultrabatt batteries left in stock. A couple of our non automotive customers decided they couldn't take the risk of us running out of stock and beefed up their stock levels a little today.

Good News:

I spoke to Ultrabatt last night (a bit of a panic really) because yesterday we sold more Ultrabatts than on any other single day in the last few years and FastBikeGear now literally only has a handful of batteries left in stock. I doubled the size of our current order for the new batteries last night and they have advised that they have moved up the shipment and release dates two weeks for the new batteries. It's a worldwide release and they want to manage it so that none of us are caught with large inventories of the existing batteries. It looks like the timing of this has worked out nearly perfectly for us. Although there will be a gap of a few days where we can't supply.

Because the time frame has moved forward I can leak out a little more stuff...

As well as the new Lithium battery technology that we will shortly have in stock which we expect to reduce the cost of ownership of a Lithium battery by approximately a further 25%, Ultrabatt are introducing some GPS technology into Lithium battery status instrumentation. This will only be an option of interest to the guys who are racing I think.

[Drew]

Bad news and good news.

Bad news:

We only have a handful of the current generation Ultrabatt batteries left in stock. A couple of our non automotive customers decided they couldn't take the risk of us running out of stock and beefed up their stock. levels a little.

Good News:

I spoke to Ultrabatt last night (a bit of a panic really) because yesterday we sold more Ultrabatts than on any other single day in the last few years and FastBikeGear now literally only has a handful of batteries left in stock. I doubled the size of our current order for the new batteries last night and they have advised that they have moved up the shipment and release dates two weeks for the new batteries. It's a worldwide release and they want to manage it so that none of us are caught with large inventories of the existing batteries. It looks like the timing of this has worked out nearly perfectly for us. Although there will be a gap of a few days where we can't supply.

Because the time frame has moved forward I can leak out a little more stuff...

As well as the new Lithium battery technology that we will shortly have in stock which we expect to reduce the cost of ownership of a Lithium battery by approximately a further 25%, Ultrabatt are introducing some GPS technology into Lithium battery status instrumentation. This will only be an option of interest to the guys who are racing I think.

We're not allowed data logging when racing. I hope this feature doesn't cause issues in that respect.

[FastBikeGear]

We're not allowed data logging when racing. I hope this feature doesn't cause issues in that respect.

The Ultramonitor is of course optional. If you don't have it on the bike you can't collect or access any motorcyle data performance information.

If you have a modern bike it is probably already performing data logging of electrical faults, etc in the ECU that the service technicians access when you take your bike in for servicing and of course this information does not infringe on the racing rules.

[Drew]

The Ultramonitor is of course optional. If you don't have it on the bike you can't collect or access any motorcyle data performance information.

If you have a modern bike it is probably already performing data logging of electrical faults, etc in the ECU that the service technicians access when you take your bike in for servicing and of course this information does not infringe on the racing rules.When you say "GPS", I assume it tracks it's movement. Not trying to be a dick, (it comes naturally), I am just wondering if it would be legal in racing.

WSB and MotoGP are both banned from using GPS, and our data logging rules would probably cover it too.

[FastBikeGear]

When you say "GPS", I assume it tracks it's movement. Not trying to be a dick, (it comes naturally), I am just wondering if it would be legal in racing.

WSB and MotoGP are both banned from using GPS, and our data logging rules would probably cover it too.

Drew, yes the Pro version of Ultrabatts UltraMonitor definitely tracks the position of the bike, in addition to monitoring the status of the Lithium battery in your bike, etc.

In many race series this and other datalogging is legal.

In MotoGP for example
Suspension travel and loads are monitored (thats what those long potentiometers do that you see attached to the front forks)
Frame and wheel accellerations are monitored and logged with accellerators
All possible engine parameters are logged
Speed and track position are logged
Braking points are logged
In fact if you can think of it they are logging it.

When are rider comes into the pits the data is immediatel down loaded off the bikes via laptops. During practice and qualifying you will see the riders sitting down with their race engineers analysing graphos of this stuff.

In MotoGP they is a restriction that they are not not allowed to send the data between the bike and pits while the bike is on the track.

Many standard road bikes Like Ducati Panigales top end road bikes have data loggers built in to the dashboard.

All we need now is for the cops to know how to access your data logging dashboard.

[Drew]

Drew, yes the Pro version of Ultrabatts UltraMonitor definitely tracks the position of the bike, in addition to monitoring the status of the Lithium battery in your bike, etc.

In many race series this and other datalogging is legal.

In MotoGP for example
Suspension travel and loads are monitored (thats what those long potentiometers do that you see attached to the front forks)
Frame and wheel accellerations are monitored and logged with accellerators
All possible engine parameters are logged
Speed and track position are logged
Braking points are logged
In fact if you can think of it they are logging it.

When are rider comes into the pits the data is immediatel down loaded off the bikes via laptops. During practice and qualifying you will see the riders sitting down with their race engineers analysing graphos of this stuff.

In MotoGP they is a restriction that they are not not allowed to send the data between the bike and pits while the bike is on the track.

Many standard road bikes Like Ducati Panigales top end road bikes have data loggers built in to the dashboard.

All we need now is for the cops to know how to access your data logging dashboard.Yip yip, I know all that.

Data logging is expressly eliminated for racing in our rules though, (or at least it was and I haven't seen a remit to the rule, (which doesn't really mean fuck all. They took out the rule saying a superbike can't be more than 5 years old without telling anyone)).

I was just musing, not trying to cause issues.

[FastBikeGear]

Yip yip, I know all that.

Data logging is expressly eliminated for racing in our rules though, (or at least it was and I haven't seen a remit to the rule, (which doesn't really mean fuck all. They took out the rule saying a superbike can't be more than 5 years old without telling anyone)).

I was just musing, not trying to cause issues.

Hey many thanks for the informations. We currently supply Ultrabatt batteries to a number of Sperbike riders including Nick Cole so I guess we won't be supplying him with Ultrabatts data logging equipment.

In some ways it's a good rule to keep the cost down but it does mean that our riders don't learn how to use the dataloggin information before they try to compete in Europe.

[Drew]

Hey many thanks for the informations. We currently supply Ultrabatt batteries to a number of Sperbike riders including Nick Cole so I guess we won't be supplying him with Ultrabatts data logging equipment.

In some ways it's a good rule to keep the cost down but it does mean that our riders don't learn how to use the dataloggin information before they try to compete in Europe.
Perfectly legit to use the gear at test/practice days. Only not allowed it in competition riding.

[Tony.OK]

Perfectly legit to use the gear at test/practice days. Only not allowed it in competition riding.

Back to playing with your tricycle Andrew.............:bleh:

Taken from MNZ App C Superbikes

Items may be added:
c) Data acquisition, computers, recording equipment (Note: Telemetry
devices are prohibited), provided no interface exists between logging
equipment and management of engine systems with the exception of
traction control systems.

[nzspokes]

So has anybody on here managed to buy one of these things recently due to this discussion?

[Drew]

So has anybody on here managed to buy one of these things recently due to this discussion?I doubt it would effect anyones decision to buy one.

I want one for the weight saving on the sidecar, and one in the RF because it sits dormant for long periods. The RF is primitive, so a Li battery should quite happily remain at full charge for years and start the old bitch whenever I want it to.

[FastBikeGear]

I doubt it would effect anyones decision to buy one.

I want one for the weight saving on the sidecar, and one in the RF because it sits dormant for long periods. The RF is primitive, so a Li battery should quite happily remain at full charge for years and start the old bitch whenever I want it to.

I know have only four of the UB400s left in stock an just 2 of the UB600 s left. Until the new model batteries arrive in about 14 days time. I will do 10% discount pricing on these to Kiwibiker customers on these 6 units but it is strictly first in first served. Please note we have already sold out of UB200s. If you purchase from the web site you will pay full retail. you must call me if you want the discount.

Normal retail pricing and product details are here (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762&zenid=53e0fbb670ef1d4c46152f23ae626d49).

We also have additional discounts if you place our sticker on your race bike.

[Pussy]

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Ultrabatt range when they arrive, Liam!

[FastBikeGear]

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Ultrabatt range when they arrive, Liam!

Send me an email with a promise you won't share and I will email you a pick. When you see the pic you will get a bit of a shock....I know I did!

[Tony.OK]

So the 3rd Gen will be cheaper than current stock for all sizes? What weight is the new equivalent of the UB200 Liam? The Motobatt in the Wr250f is apparently 2.09kg, and if they're cheaper than the $140 on your site now they will be getting close to the Motobatt prices, if a sticker on my bike makes it cheaper still, I'll cover the whole thing hahaa.

ps-thanks for the quick delivery on the Ctek charger


Oops...........just noticed disc is for race bikes hahaa........gotta love a trier eh?

[FastBikeGear]

So the 3rd Gen will be cheaper than current stock for all sizes? What weight is the new equivalent of the UB200 Liam? The Motobatt in the Wr250f is apparently 2.09kg, and if they're cheaper than the $140 on your site now they will be getting close to the Motobatt prices, if a sticker on my bike makes it cheaper still, I'll cover the whole thing hahaa.

ps-thanks for the quick delivery on the Ctek charger

The new replacement for the 200 is only a few grams lighter. The current 200 is 438 grams.

The new technology is extremely innovative.

I am not allowed to give any hints on price but they certainly won't be any more expensive. They should also last 5-10 years so cost per year will be pretty good.

I hope to be able to release pricing very shortly.

[FastBikeGear]

Stock notice.

Just to advise guys we have fewer that 30 Ultrabatt 400 and 600 batteries in stock at the moment.

We have deliberately let our stock levels fall as we will shortly be recieving the new 3rd Generation Lithium Batteries and once these are avaliable you will understandably not want to purchase the 2nd generation batteries.

Current models and pricing

Ultrabatt 200's (all sold out)
Ultrabatt 400s, 728 grams, Built-in full four function BMS, 240 CCA, $289 (less than 30 left)
Ultrabatt 600s, 1100 grams, Built-in full four function BMS 360 CCA, $359 (less than 20 left)

We expect this stock will run out in the next few days and there may be a gap of a couple of weeks while we wait for the new ones to arrive.

Just and update we only have 2 of the Ultrabatt 400s left now and just the 1 Ultrabatt 600.

There is a little bit of stock with one of our industrial customers but I am not sure I can get my hands back on it if I need it. (They would probably charge me a margin!)

[FastBikeGear]

FastBikeGear are the distributor of the Dutch Ultrabatt range of Lithium batteries in New Zealand.

We are one of the largest suppliers of automotive Lithium Battery technology in New Zealand.

The cost of this battery technology is plummeting, but Lithium batteries still cost more than lead acid batteries.

One of the key justifications for paying more for a Lithium battery is that a Lithium battery with an inbuilt BMS in it has a target life of 10 years and customers should expect them to last between five years and 10 years.

But if most people's lead acid batteries are lasting more than 5 years the cost justification is not done and dusted in favour of a lithium battery until the price drops even further.

We want your feed back. All respondents will see the results.

We have posted a poll here. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/160754-How-long-did-your-last-battery-last)

Many thanks for participating.

[Howie]

Hi Liam, I notice you follow this thread.

I have a question for you regarding the Ultrabatt lithium batteries. I have asked a similar question over on the Shorai thread. I am interested in if The BMS in a Ultrabatt would manage this scenario. Theoretical only at this stage as going by my experience so far I am a couple of years away from needing a new battery although the weight loss is tempting on an overweight mid sized adv bike.

As my KLR is based on a fairly old school design the output from the stator is only about 200 watts, so when I am running my lights, heated handle bar grips, GPS etc I am running very close to the maximum output of electrical system.

When a Ultrabatt Battery is charging while installed in a bike does it draw more current than a lead acid battery for charging purposes and does it fully charge or stop in an under charged state if there isn't enough wattage left to provide the current draw it would like?

Thanks

Paul

[FastBikeGear]

Hi Liam, I notice you follow this thread.

I have a question for you regarding the Ultrabatt lithium batteries. I have asked a similar question over on the Shorai thread. I am interested in if The BMS in a Ultrabatt would manage this scenario. Theoretical only at this stage as going by my experience so far I am a couple of years away from needing a new battery although the weight loss is tempting on an overweight mid sized adv bike.

As my KLR is based on a fairly old school design the output from the stator is only about 200 watts, so when I am running my lights, heated handle bar grips, GPS etc I am running very close to the maximum output of electrical system.

When a Ultrabatt Battery is charging while installed in a bike does it draw more current than a lead acid battery for charging purposes and does it fully charge or stop in an under charged state if there isn't enough wattage left to provide the current draw it would like?

Thanks

Paul

Paul can you give me a call tomorrow, so I can talk through that with you.

My numbers are below.

[Howie]

Yep I'll give you a call at some stage, although probably Thursday as I am expecting to have one of those crazy busy days at work tomorrow.

[FastBikeGear]

Announcements on the new batteries begin to be released in the next few days via Ultrabatts facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Ultrabatt

I am currently assisting with writing the new manual for Ultrabatt. (I do some technical writing for several of our manufactures).

I can leak a couple of details from this, but we are keeping the best news until the official release! Everyone loves a surprise.

There has been a lot of talk on another thread about Ultrabatt voiding the warranty on Ultrabatt's 2nd generation Lithium batteries if you use any charger other than the charging system on your bike or Ultrabatt's mains powered charger and this remains the case for the existing batteries as we wish to ensure you get the maximum life from them (5-10 years).

You could actually charge the current batteries with any lead acid charger you liked (as long as it didn't have a desulphation stage like our CTEK smart lead acid battery tenders (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=184&products_id=358) do ). However we wanted to ensure that the charging process never shortened the life of your battery. An incorrect charge in the 1st year of ownership could cause you to only get 8 years life out of a battery that would might otherwise have lasted 10 years, and you would never get any warning of this as the battery would appear to still be working perfectly for a few years.

The new technology Lithium cells and the latest generation inbuilt BMS in the 3rd generation batteries makes it possible for you to use any lead/acid chargers that meeta Ultrabatts guidelines.

The new batteries again have a longer service life (5-10 years )than a Lithium battery without a BMS (1-5 years?).

I can also confirm that the cells in the new battery are again also interconnected with Ultrabatt's unique laser welding process (not screws or soft solder like other brands). This ensures the cells in the new batteries will also never physically disconnect from each other ...as was achieved with the previous batteries....never had a case of this anywhere in the world.

The batteries will again be supplied with Ultrabatt battery straps to assist you in securing the Ultrabatt within your battery box.



1 st generation Lithium batteries (a bunch of cells stuck together with wires and put in a plastic case, no protection circuits and no BMS - Shorai, Ballistic)

2nd generation Lithium batteries (a bunch of cells, some internal protection and a sophisticated Microprocessor controlled BMS to maximise cell life - Ultrabatt and a couple of others)

3rd generation Lithium batteries (Latest generation Lithium cells, some internal protection and Ultrabatt's lastest generation Microprocessor controlled BMS to maximise cell life - Ultrabatt and more to follow)

[jellywrestler]

1 st generation Lithium batteries (a bunch of cells stuck together with wires and put in a plastic case, no protection circuits and no BMS - Shorai, Ballistic)

2nd generation Lithium batteries (a bunch of cells, some internal protection and a sophisticated Microprocessor controlled BMS to maximise cell life - Ultrabatt and a couple of others)

3rd generation Lithium batteries (Latest generation Lithium cells, some internal protection and Ultrabatt's lastest generation Microprocessor controlled BMS to maximise cell life - Ultrabatt and more to follow)
you've gone to the trouble to note particular bands in the first generation section, why haven't you taken the trouble to do the same in the second and third generation????

[FastBikeGear]

you've gone to the trouble to note particular bands in the first generation section, why haven't you taken the trouble to do the same in the second and third generation????

Ultrabatt were the first in the world to release 2nd generation Lithium batteries for motorcycle use. I only know of a couple of other 2nd generation Lithium batteries designed for motorbikes (My understanding is they are good products, made by good companies, but it is not my job to promote them)

There are no other 3rd generation batteries yet made by any other companies (Ultrabatt expects that once we release them that they will again be followed in due course).

[Drew]

(My understanding is they are good products, made by good companies, but it is not my job to promote them)

But it is your job to talk down others?

[bogan]

But it is your job to talk down others?

It's the job of anyone in marketing or sales to point out where their product has better attributes than the competition I would have thought.

[Drew]

It's the job of anyone in marketing or sales to point out where their product has better attributes than the competition I would have thought.I don't disagree. But given the other thread, it looks like a dig to me. I have no doubt Liam will deny that of course, he needn't waste his breath.

[jellywrestler]

But it is your job to talk down others?

that was the point of my post thanks Drewpy

[bogan]

I don't disagree. But given the other thread, it looks like a dig to me. I have no doubt Liam will deny that of course, he needn't waste his breath.

Given the other thread, I for one would prefer this stays about the actual batteries rather than descending into a 'he said, she said' situation where everybody looks like an ass and nobody figures out which battery is best for their sidechair. So that is all I shall say on the matter.

I'm quite keen to hear about the differences between 2nd and 3rd gen batts tbh, I mean there has to be something else interesting coming because with current info the 3rd gen sounds a lot like gen 2.1 :wait:

[Drew]

Given the other thread, I for one would prefer this stays about the actual batteries rather than descending into a 'he said, she said' situation where everybody looks like an ass and nobody figures out which battery is best for their sidechair. So that is all I shall say on the matter.Fair enough. Quite hypocritical on my part.


I'm quite keen to hear about the differences between 2nd and 3rd gen batts tbh, I mean there has to be something else interesting coming because with current info the 3rd gen sounds a lot like gen 2.1 :wait:Some of the hints Liam has offered, are quite intriguing. If I read between the lines correctly, it really is so simple and brilliant that it begs how no one has done it before.

Begs further though to it's logical end, is it necessary?

If I try and explain why, I will have to explain what I think he meant. If I'm right, that's kinda his present to open.

[FastBikeGear]

I don't disagree. But given the other thread, it looks like a dig to me. I have no doubt Liam will deny that of course, he needn't waste his breath.

My job is to educate the market and point out technical differences between products. If another product is lacking features compared to ours we think customers want to know.

It is necessary for customers to understand why a 2nd generation battery might cost more than the earlier 1st gen ones .

They have a right to know what more they are getting for their money.

If I was selling an oven with a built in rotisserie and a competitors doesn't, shouldn't I point this out? or is it unkind or impolite if I do?

And they have every right to say we don't have a inbuilt BMS or rotisserie but of course this is factored into the price or whatever.

It's almost as if you blame me because Shorai doen't have a built in BMS!

Ask Kevin Riley head of Sales/Marketing (sales@shorai.org) at Shorai the question and see why they tell you they don't have a BMS.

For all I know they have a 2nd gen battery about to hit the market. After all only the other day their N.Z. agent said watch this space!

[imdying]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.

[Drew]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

[bogan]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.

Part of an RC's BMS is still in the device with at least an under-voltage cutout being a standard or configurable option.


Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

Could be in phone and in external chargers. Could be half and half with the monitoring bits in batt talking to the charger on the phone side, I think that is how laptop batteries do it.

[imdying]

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.It's basically a question without an answer. Some are in the phone, some in the battery.



Part of an RC's BMS is still in the device with at least an under-voltage cutout being a standard or configurable option.Quite right, that typically being the most basic function of a BMS.

[FastBikeGear]

Hey just some stuff from Wikipedia and elsewhere for battery junkies.

There are only a handful of different core LiFEPo4 cell technologies in the world (currently)and the patents on these are primarily held by just three companies

A123 Systems http://www.a123systems.com/about-us-locations.htm (American company initially, but recently purchased by Chinese company) plants and offices in US, Germany and China
Phostech http://www.phostechlithium.com/ UCanadian head quarters h plants and offices in China, Japan, Europe, Middle East, North America
Aleees http://www.aleees.com/ (Head office Taiwan and China)

Some smaller companies such as
NTT http://www.ntt.co.jp/inlab/kankyo/eng/research/1_lithium-air/index.html
Valence http://www.valence.com/ also hold some of the less important patents (Brammo, Segway, Mercedes, Renault, Ford, Volvo Isuzu and Peugot are or have been technoogy partners of Valence. Valence are very focused on LiFeMgPO4 bttery chemistry....but are going through some difficulty....

Valence August 21, 2013
We are pleased to advise you that today, August 21, 2013, the Company has filed its Plan of Reorganization and Disclosure Statement with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Texas. As you may recall, in July the Company was granted an extension of its exclusivity period to October 7, 2013, for filing a plan of reorganization and disclosure statement. The Plan calls for the implementation of a financing and reorganization proposal from the Company’s secured lender, Berg & Berg Enterprises, LLC. The Plan includes an infusion of $20 million of new capital, which will be provided through a loan from Berg & Berg to fund the payments to creditors under the Plan and to fund the Company’s working capital needs after exiting from Chapter 11. The Plan of Reorganization and Disclosure Statement are public documents and can be viewed on our website.....

At present according to Wikipedia the root patents of the LFP compounds are held by just the first three material companies I mentioned, A123, Phostech and Aleees.

The key feature of Li1-xMFePO4 from A123 is the nano-LFP, which converts the originally less conductive LFP into commercial products by modification of its physical properties and addition of noble metals in the anode material, as well as the use of special graphite as the cathodes.

The main feature of LiFePO4 from Phostech is the increased capacitance and conductivity by appropriate carbon coating; the crucial feature of LiFePO4 •

zM from Aleees is the LFP with a high capacitance and low impedance obtained by the stable control of the ferrites and crystal growth. This improved control is realized by applying strong mechanical stirring forces to the precursors in high oversaturation states, which induces crystallization of the metal oxides and LFP.

They also license their technology and cell raw treated Lithium to companies such as China BAK inc and Tianjin Lishen Battery co Ltd. (http://en.lishen.com.cn/) who are two of the largest LiFEPo4 cell manufacturers in the world. Lishen make both prismatic cells and cylindrical cells. Most of these companies production is in mainland China I suspect because of labour costs.

The patent wars are ongoing with many companies trying to circumvent the patents held by the big three. NTT had to pay the Univeristy of Texas 30 million dollars in 2008 (University of Texas invented the LiMPo4 battery in 1996). NTT also holds some patents on a variation of LiFePO4 chemistry, AyMPO4 has higher capacity than LiFeP04. A is for alkali metal and M for the combination of Co and Fe.

Some of the above companies such have gone through tumultuous financial times, e.g Valence and A123 Systems, the investments made and the risks taken have been massive and the expected growth rate of EVs (Electrical Vehicles) has fallen well behind production capacity, Which means the cost of the raw cells has fluctuated a lot.

The continued R&D effort by all of these companies is massive because of the humungus size of the prize at stake.
Research continues, substituting other metals for the iron or lithium in LiFePO4 has been shown to improve efficiency. Magnesium, titanium, manganese, zirconium and zinc are some of the materials that have been and are being experimented with. There is a lot of research going into the physical structure of the anodes and cathodes and the word nano is cropping up quite a bit.

Most of the battery manufacturers are very secretive who they make their cells for and most Lithium battery manufactures won't reveal where they buy their cells from. Ultrabatt's previous generation cells were made by A123 Systems. Lishen do disclose that they manufacture for, Apple, Samsung, Motorola, LG, Dell, HP, Nokia, TTI, SBDK, Valence, Vodafone and domestic industry leaders, such as Lenovo, Huawei, ZTE, and of course they have many other customers who are not disclosed for commercial sensitivity reasons. Companies like Shorai and Ultrabatt do not invent, design or make their own cells.

This means that each time another small refinement in cell chemistry or technology comes along, they can simply switch to another supplier to take advantages of the features, performance or reliability characteristics they deem most desirable.

The cell technology is evolving as fast the as the Battery Management System technology.
The combined investment in both technologies in this year alone will be close to billion dollars.

It's very likely that the batteries in the bike you buy in 5 to 10 year times won't be used for starting a petrol engine.

[avgas]

Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.
Li-Ion have over-charge protection on the battery. In fact is is very difficult to overcharge one. Chuck some Li-Ion AA's in a battery charger and they won't explode for months.
The rest of the BMS is built into whatever is controller. Also the level of the BMS varies. Android phones actually have some BMS as a part of the OS interfacing with the PMS as a feedback.

FYI watch out for charging chips - I just had one for solar charging. Put smartcharger on it, seemed to only "trickle charge" until battery died. Put smartcharger straight on to the batt - went to full charge. Not only that charging chip showed charge voltage as similar to batt, and I had 6.5V on charge terminals (with nothing connected). So seems that engineer assume charging chip was full works - but actually I have massive transient current going the chip.

[Drew]

FYI watch out for charging chips - I just had one for solar charging. Put smartcharger on it, seemed to only "trickle charge" until battery died. Put smartcharger straight on to the batt - went to full charge. Not only that charging chip showed charge voltage as similar to batt, and I had 6.5V on charge terminals (with nothing connected). So seems that engineer assume charging chip was full works - but actually I have massive transient current going the chip.Yip, that went completely over my head at a million miles an hour.

[avgas]

After all only the other day their N.Z. agent said watch this space!
Three words.

Aprilia New Zealand

Shorai are not likely to change that easily. I may be surprised. But usually I am not.

[avgas]

Yip, that went completely over my head at a million miles an hour.
Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?

[Drew]

Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?Ah, gotcha...

And it's S.R.A.D you fucken heathen, weather it worked or not!

[FastBikeGear]

Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?

Good question and good point not all BMS systems do, or need to do the same thing. Best functionality depends on applications and depend on the cells used.

This is a good time to reiterate the functionality of the BMS in the new batteries will be different and will again be detailed on our web site.


Firstly what our BMS does is described in the product details on our web site. (The IP of how it does this is obviously not).

Consumers have protection under the NZ Consumers Guarantee Act which is one of the best bits of legislation we have in NZ. Whoever wrote that needs a medal!

Does the BMS do what it says it does on the can? (Well again you have the protection of the Consumers Guarantee Act).

But how do we know it is actually working....Well of course you can test it but it's hard to do that before you buy it.

So whats the evidence so far....

Well two blown protection circuits (Two fuses that had to be replaced back at the factory) and one damaged battery ....so far...so what....we have only been selling them for two years!

If you or I had purchased a bunch of cells on line, strapped them together, soldered or screwed some connections between them, threw in an appropriately sized fuse, shrink wrapped them with some heat shrink and attached some battery terminal lugs at each end and sold a few hundred of them we could probably have achieved nearly as good MTBF results within the first 2 years. In fact that is exactly how one of the vendor got into business before they had some really nice plastic cases made up (no it wasn't Shorai).

However the real picture will only begin to emerge after 5 years on the market...and that's why it's a difficult sale to get customers to pay more for a battery with a BMS in it at this stage.

Imagine if you bought a hybrid car from Toyota and Tesla and you had to replace the battery after 3 or 4 years of ownership!
We can be fairly confident a BMS is a good idea because electric car makers have been using them for years and the engineers all say they are a good idea but can we trust these engineers...maybe they are just creating a job for themselves?


The BMS and protection circuitry is all about the extending the life of the battery and minimising customers cost of ownership, if it doesn't do that then the BMS has failed to do it's job. No ifs or buts.

If the microprocessor controlled BMS does extend the life of the battery by several years, and it hasn't cost you too much of a premium, then you come out financially ahead.

If you didn't pay a premium for the BMS then you can't lose.

I just can't make it more complicated than that.




Many thanks for the question and the opportunity to detail this.

[Edbear]

Ah, gotcha...

And it's S.R.A.D you fucken heathen, weather it worked or not!

It's "whether"... ;)

[avgas]

The BMS and protection circuitry is all about the extending the life of the battery and minimising customers cost of ownership, if it doesn't do that then the BMS has failed to do it's job. No ifs or buts.
If the microprocessor controlled BMS does extend the life of the battery by several years, and it hasn't cost you too much of a premium, then you come out financially ahead.
If you didn't pay a premium for the BMS then you can't lose.
I just can't make it more complicated than that.
I can :msn-wink:
But probably just leave it at that. What you have said in the first part is correct. But when it does ONLY that you need to consider how it would react in a system that was never designed for it.

But I have faith that all the manufacturers out there know what they are doing. I just wish we talked about what that is specifically.
The batteries themselves could be made of mud for all I care - I am just concerned that under certain parameters things react differently. All LiPo manufacturers need to understand this. As vehicles are not designed around a LiPo battery - lets hope the battery is designed around the vehicle.

[avgas]

I probably should point out I am not a LiPo salesperson. So its not my job to convince people how great these things are. So lets see others come up with a features list.

Laziness on my part - but I can't be fucked. Sealed Lead Acids working for me currently. See no evidence for me to change yet. Salesman job is to convince me otherwise.

[FastBikeGear]

I probably should point out I am not a LiPo salesperson. So its not my job to convince people how great these things are. So lets see others come up with a features list.

Laziness on my part - but I can't be fucked. Sealed Lead Acids working for me currently. See no evidence for me to change yet. Salesman job is to convince me otherwise.

Nah sales persons job is to present you with the most accurate information and let you choose whether a lead acid battery or a lithium battery is right for you.

A good salesperson is just a consultant to assist you in getting and enjoying the best solution possible.

The conclusion is not clear cut and the answers will be different for different customers

Here's the sort of things I am advising customers to weigh up when they talk to me.



Yes for racers with a good budget the weight savings (Up to 4kg) make ltihium batteries a done deal. How else do you loose 4 kgs for such a small price premium....you can't.
Yes Lithium batteries are more reliable by a factor of several times. (Although it's very early days yet our user poll shows that around 14% of lead batteries fail in the first two years and 25% have failed by the end of the third year. If that was the failure rate of a home appliance somebody would be getting nailed on Campbell Live! or having to answer some very hard questions from the Ministry of Consumer Affairs...perhaps they should be.
Even the worst of lithium batteries have failure rates well under a third of those failure rates, and the best are proving to have failure rates well under 1% for the first two years.
Consider also that because a lithium battery has very low self discharge rate and most commuters don't run total loss systems, and this might be another cost benefit to owning a lithium battery.
Factor in the cost of a smart tender if you are an infrequent rider, (which will cost nearly as much as your lead acid battery) and the annual cost of ownership starts to swing to lithium batteries.
But of course many customers will already have a smart lead acid battery tender. So this is a cost they have already met.
Scan the internet for actual real world incidents (rather than the theoretical ones) and the damage caused to the bike... and the risks of lead acid batteries and Lithium batteries are pretty similar.
You can mitigate the MOST serious of these risks (the one that creates the most dangerous risk - the short circuit) by buying a lithium battery with the correct type and correctly rated fuse built into it.
But you also have to consider that most people change bikes every three years then the very high failure rates (25% within three years) of lead acid batteries becomes more acceptable (because the battery becomes someone else problem) Unless you can swap your lithium battery from one bike to another, you could lose on the deal when the next owner gets your reliable long life lithium battery and you may get a bike with an old lead acid battery.


Sales consultants need to give you the best information so that you can make an informed decision and then sell you the technology you choose.

If we haven't got what you need (maybe a lead acid battery is best for you) then we need to accept and acknowledge that you need to purchase from another supplier.

[FastBikeGear]

...It has begun

...the release of Ultrabatt's new 3rd generation technology batteries.

...While Ultrabatt 2nd gen batteries already acknowledged as the most advancedautomotive lithium batteries

...The new batteries move the goal posts forward again. As you would expect advancements have been made on nearly every aspect,

...Very latest technology LiFepo4 cells (Similar power density but even more robust than superb A123 systems cells used previously)

...new BMS,

...Smarter packaging 'one battery to serve them all!'

...and (whoops have to stop there for the moment)


See the following link for some of the details

http://www.ultrabatt.com



More clever stuff to be announced shortly....yep there is yet more cool stuff to come...but understand I can't discuss any new info here before Ultrabatt announce it on their web site first.

Info Packs for our dealer are being prepared now.

Newsletter to FBG customer base will go out after the dealer pack. If you wish to subscribe to our dealer news letter please send email to julie@fastbikegear.co.nz with the word 'dealer' in the subject line and your name and contact number in the content. And one of our staff will contact you.

Pricing will be posted to the www.fastbikegear.co.nz as soon as stock arrives in our warehouse.

If you wish to subscribe to our customer news letter please send email to julie@fastbikegear.co.nz with the word 'subscribe' in the subject line and your full name and phone number in the content.

I would also like this opportunity to welcome Cameron to our internal systems support team. With well over 3000 motorcycle performance upgrade accessories on www.fastbike.gear.com we need to ensure our systems keep abreast of order processing as we continuing growing our off shore business into Australia, Asia and the US. He's manged to spend half our annual IT budget in one week!

[Tony.OK]

Hmmmm...................so if ya were to get 2 wee 200's then 1 could be used for a small bike, then strap 2 together for the big bike?
Cheaper than buying a little'un and a big'un.

[bogan]

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/Cmd598/emote/BenderNeat.jpg" />

[FastBikeGear]

Hmmmm...................so if ya were to get 2 wee 200's then 1 could be used for a small bike, then strap 2 together for the big bike?
Cheaper than buying a little'un and a big'un.

Yes exactly.

And wee is the word!

The new multiMIGHTY PowerBlade is half...

,,,yes, HALF the size of the old Ultrabatt 200!

has the same cranking power and capacity!!

These things are just insanely tiny

114 Long x 30mm deep x 90mm high (Not a whole lot bigger bigger than a cigarette pack)


Click on this link here to see more info. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=762&products_id=5414)

Or if you buy a bigger bike next time ..or you want to put them in your car, just click three or four together.

or you find you want even more starting power when you visit Gore

Each PowerBlade has it's own BMS of course.

You can charge individual power blades or charge an entire block and still get perfect cell balancing while you are charging.


287259

ONE BATTERY TO SERVE THEM ALL!

[FastBikeGear]

More product news next week....

[imdying]

I think this is of no surprise to those who take an interest in this tech. Some worthy additions it would appear.


But, I absolutely refuse to buy a product that doesn't have a price on it. House, car, bike, battery, no price, no sale.

[avgas]

Yeah - whats the price mister?

[FastBikeGear]

I think this is of no surprise to those who take an interest in this tech. Some worthy additions it would appear.

But, I absolutely refuse to buy a product that doesn't have a price on it. House, car, bike, battery, no price, no sale.

Yes sorry about that...please bear with us.

Prices for the UltraMonitors should be on our web site tomorrow. Just takes a while to load this stuff up.

Most of the multiMIGHTY product info is already on our web site HERE (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)

Prices will be added to that page later this week.

We have to coordinate with Ultrabatt's worldwide release...we don't want to jump the gun ....so please bear with us.

[imdying]

We have to coordinate with Ultrabatt's worldwide release...we don't want to jump the gun ....so please bear with us.

Yeah, fair enough. Just remember, no matter how outlandish the price, it's really easy to hit buy now. Sean from The Tuning Works said he'd never sold a 'Brembo Ultimate Package' for an RGV... I told him he was more likely to than if he didn't have them listed! Quite prepared to put my money where my mouth is too... now my RGV has a lovely little RCS fully adjustable all the bells and whistles master cylinder on it :D

[AndyR1]

More product news next week....

This "Ultrabatt Ultramonitor" also works with other LiIo batteries like my Bikefire BF5000 (http://www.bfakku.de/bf-batterie-carbon/) ??

[FastBikeGear]

This "Ultrabatt Ultramonitor" also works with other LiIo batteries like my Bikefire BF5000 (http://www.bfakku.de/bf-batterie-carbon/) ??

Yes. You should contact Gerard at www.ultrabat.com and see if maybe you can become a dealer for them?

[FastBikeGear]

Pricing and specs for the new modular Ultrabatt Lithium batteries is now on our web site CLICK HERE TO VIEW. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)

These batteries are very different from the previous range of very successful Ultrabatt batteries.

Please note these have not arrived into stock yet but you can reserve them by sending an email to julie@FastBikeGear.co.nz. She will let you know when they have arrived and will send you an invoice when she is ready to dispatch your order. So you don't have to pay until we dispatch them of course!

The cheapest way to buy blades is to purchase a 3 Pack which has a retail price of $390 which works out $130 for a singly multiMIGHTY.

Nothing to stop you clubbing together of course with a couple of mates to do this of course.

[FastBikeGear]

$369 for the battery, $133 for a trickle charger ........... no sir I'll stick with my Motobatt - it has been going strong for 4 years so far.

Allan only one in 20 of our Ultabatt customers purchases a mains charger because unlike lead acid batteries a lithium battery will retain it's cranking ability for many months inbetween rides and they also charge up on your bike many times faster than a lead acid battery.

We do sell a mains charger for race customers who run total loss and don't charge their batteries with their bikes charging circuit. They charge the batteries to 14.6 volts ( as opposed to lead acid battery chargers 14.4V) and then they stop charging. They do not continue to trickle charge like a lead acid batty charger because it's just not necessary or even good for a lithium battery to keep trickle charging it once it is full charged.

A UB400 240 PCA is all you need for a 1000 CC four cylinder bike @$289 including inbuilt on bike BMS charger.

http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=762&products_id=1198

At this price if you budget on getting 4 years out of a lead acid battery ( and it doesn't fail prematurely) then you need a $289 lithium battery to last about 6 years to have a lower cost of ownership than puchasing a lead acid battery and lead acid smart charger for a combined price of $200.

If you buy a lead acid battery without a smart charger and it lasts 4 years, then your lithium battery needs to last about 8 years to work out cheaper.

Lithium batteries with inbuilt BMS systems have target lives of 10 years. But we have only been selling them for 2 years. What we can say with 100% certainty is that Ultrabatts failure rate has proven to be many times less than that Kiwibiker owners of lead acid batteries have experienced. ( see survey (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/160754-How-long-did-your-last-battery-last))

Of course your lithium battery will:


Be install and forget (never needs to be plugged into a trickle charger).
Have much lower MTBF. Our Keywiibiker survey shows approx 25% of lead acid batteries fail in first three years and nearly 50% in first five years!!
Will probably never get a chance to go flat
Weigh less than 1/4 of your existing battery
...and of course you can swap it over to your next bike.

[jellywrestler]

they also charge up on your bike many times faster than a lead acid battery.



exactly how many times?????

[FastBikeGear]

exactly how many times?????

I think I understand your question.

If you are talking about how many discharge charge cycles you can get from a LiFePo4 battery the answer will depend on similar factors that effect a lead acid battery life:


The percentage of discharge before recharge. Smaller cycles give your battery a longer life. The charge discharge cycyles on a motorcycle are typically very small and a motor cycle battery will be typically fully rehcarded within 5 minutes of starting your bike.

The rate of disharge for each cycle (typically the only thing that will significantly discharge a motorcyle lithium battery is cranking amps. High discharge rates will decresase the life of your battery. LiFePO4 otorcycle batteries are designed for high discharge rates.

The rate of charge (Lithiums like to be charged hard and fast relative to lead acid batteries i.e greater than 1 amp and less than 10 amps (which is exactly what a motorcycle charging circuit typically does)

Whether or not your battery is charged back up on every occasion with a BMS. (This is why batteries with internal Battery Management Systems prove much more reliable and have much longer service lifes. (It;'s also why we are beginning to see inbuilt BMS systems in more expensive lead acid batteries used in, Fork lifts, Solar storage and back up power systems. BMS systems save money by greatly extending the life of batteries.

Whether your battery has regularly been under or over discharged.


Lithium battery manufactures typically talk about 400,000 charge cycles.

"Hi David, I worked in a LiFePO4 battery manufacturer in China. The fast charge & discharge performance of LiFePO4 are usually limited by PCM. And 400,000 cycles@80% DOD (Depth of Discharge) is theoretical.

Daniel Sidor
Technical Manager at FESMC Energy Services"

A lithium motorcycle battery [with an inbuilt BMS] is designed to have a service life of 10 years with a very low failure rate. Do the designers know what they are doing? Well you only need to compare the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure rates) and a very clear picture is beginning to form - the life fo a lead acid battery seems to be a bit of a risky lottery in comparison to purchasing a lithium battery (with an inbuilt BMS).

Unfortunately the failure rate for LiFeP04 motorcycle batteries without an inbuilt BMS systems appears to be nowhere near as good. Unfortunately reliable fault statistics for LiFePO4 batteries without BMS systems are not available to us.

But here are some statistics we do have. (Source Kiwibiker survey, FBG records as of 16/09/2013)

The Kiwibiker survey by the nature of the type of people who respond is not ideal for the following reasons. 1. It has been completed by motorcycle enthusiasts who probably care for their battery better than motorcyclists who are not so enthusiastic, 2. It has been completed by people who are particularly interested in the results. 3. There is more chance of someone who has had a particularly good or bad experience completing the survey. 4. There is a relatively small sample group. 5. The group includes customers with both original fitment and aftermarket lead acid batteries and there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that original fitment batteries are higher quality and last longer than cheaper after market lead acid batteries. So as a sample group it is not ideal.

The FBG statistics have a much larger sample group but is again not ideal. The group represents a cross section of all people who have purchased batteries but again this is a group who has taken a stronger than normal interest in their batteries. FBG statistics do not include batteries which have had their protective short circuit fuses replaced - we had two customers blow the fuses in 2012 and none so far in 2013). Protective short circuit fuses used to only be factory replaceable - they are now dealer replaceable).

End of 1st year
Lead Acid - 7.69% failure rate
Lithium with inbuilt BMS less than 1%

End of 2nd year
Lead Acid - 10.25% !
Lithium with inbuilt BMS less that 1%

End of 3rd year
Lead Acid - 25.63% !!
Lithium with inbuilt BMS (no statistics as yet)

End of 4th year
Lead Acid - 33.32% !!
Lithium with inbuilt BMS (no statistics as yet)

End of 5th year
Lead Acid - 48.7% !!
Lithium with inbuilt BMS (no statistics as yet)

I am picking that total accumulated lithium battery failures will remain very low (in the single digits) up to the 5 year market. After 5 years I am picking we will see a slight increase up to about 8 years and then a higher failure rate form 8 years onwards. But who knows?

[avgas]

400,000 cycles@80% DOD (Depth of Discharge) is theoretical.
Have you ever run your battery 80% flat? <_<

[FastBikeGear]

Have you ever run your battery 80% flat? <_<

Yes I think so. The reason I say 'I think so' is that the Ultrabatt UB200, UB400 and UB600 series batteries all have anti-bricking technology in them so they cut off in the same way as your Lithium powered drill does before they go fully flat. We have never been advised of what percentage of discharge they cut off at. But I am guessing it is around the 80% DOD point.

Although they are sold as starting batteries I have used the Ultrabatts for a variety of tasks including to power Stonk Lights in my workshop and as a portable power supply for my iPad when travelling. Today I am currently using one as a bench top power supply to heat soak test an OVP (Over Voltage Protection) circuit I am designing to protect motorcycle ECU's ABS systems etc in the event that a RR on a bike goes rogue.

I have a customer who completely flattened a UB400 to the point where the protection circuitry cut in trying to start a Motor Guzzi (that was never going to start because of faulty ignition coil wiring - which I subsequently fixed for him).

We also have customers who have used them as total loss batteries on race bikes, so I am guessing that on occasion that one or more of these guys has also flattened the battery to the point where they have cut off.

"Very good product! I have an RVF400 race bike running total loss ignition and with the lead acid batteries I would change to a fresh charged battery mid day. With the UB400 I can get a full day of racing and only drop 0.2V, Mike Sullivan"


But I am curious as to why you ask?

Typically in usage as a motorcycle battery (in non total loss systems) I doubt whether most customers ever flatten them more than 10%.

I estimate that about 90% of Ultrabatts sold in New Zealand have been fitted to road bikes just to save money and get rid of hassles.

[jellywrestler]

[QUOTE=jellywrestler;1130612611]exactly how many times?????


I think I understand your question.



dont think you do your answer hasn't backed up your statement, you said they also charge up many times faster, which says to me that they'll charge many more batteries in the same time span as lead acid batteries, so how many is the case?

[Drew]

Fuck me, I'm confused Spyda.

Are you asking how long it takes to charge an Ultrabatt from 80%ish discharge, to fully charged in normal motorcycle running conditions?

[FastBikeGear]

exactly how many times?????

Sorry now I understand your question.

The Ultrabatt UB400 and UB600 series batteries have a maximum recommended charging rate of 20A.

Yes you can charge a lead acid battery at this rate for short periods (although it's less than ideal for it's life span especially on a small motorcycle battery!) ....but just because you are chucking amps at the battery at a high rate doesn't mean to say it is actually charging at a high rate.

Because lithium batteries have very low internal resistance, charging at comparitively high amps does not cause as much heat build up (excessive heatt build up helps shorten the life of all typed of batteries).

The on board BMS in the Ultrabatt Lithium batteries assists in enabling a very fast charge rate while still achieving a perfect balanced cell charge. If you try these kinds of charge rates in a lithium battery without a BMS your results may vary.

Typically within 5 miuntes of using your starter to start your bike you will have a fully charged battery. So you could start with charged battery, start your bike do 3 or 4 laps around Hampton Downs, stop your bike, start your bike and repeat for months on end.

You can fully charge a flat Ultrabatt battery in about 20-30 minutes on a motorbike with a 350 watt or greater alternator.

What does this mean, well if you completely flatten the battery. Then push start your bike and ride it for 20 -30 minutes it will be fully charged to the point where you couldn't charge it any further.

The new series of multiMIGHTY batteries have a recommended maximum sustained charging rate of 10 amps for a single 120 PCA PowerBlade. So they also have a very fast charge rate. I haven't confirmed yet but I would imagine the maximum sustained charging rate for 3 blades (the equivalent of a UB600) would then be close to 30A.

Graeme I hope I have answered your question?

[avgas]

But I am curious as to why you ask?
Bricking mainly. But there was lots of whoo-ha a few years back about Lithium suppliers claiming 1000's of cycles @ X % DOD. Outside of that the statistics were far worse. The workaround was to build cut-off circuits so that the Lithium batts never exceeded DOD. The subsequent off-shoot of that was the fancy tech caused thermal run-away and in Sony's case.....fire.
Usually the electronics these days (its been 5 years) is pretty good. But I have still seen the od' either electronic failure (making 100% DOD - and causing single digit cycles rather than 1000's) or DOD by-pass failure (boom). So I am very suspicious when someone tells me to trust the black box without telling me what it cuts off at.......then telling me figures of superior quality with figures.

e.g. We have 100% successfully safe landing with landing gear.
How often does the landing gear fail?
Dunno - at least 90% of the time.
Do you have unsafe landing when the landing gear fails?
Never thought of that.

A million cycles @ 80% DOD is the same as 1 cycle @ 100% DOD if they BMS doesn't cut out before 80% DOD. In Sony's case they never exceeded 90% DOD - but they had some cool fires when it got close (solution was to shut down equipment @ 80% DOD).

[Drew]

Graham I hope I have answered your question?It's Graeme, I think. In true KB fashion, since you got that one detail wrong, the entirety of the post is wrong.

Sorry, thanks for playing, you are the weakest link, goodby.

[FastBikeGear]

Bricking mainly. But there was lots of whoo-ha a few years back about Lithium suppliers claiming 1000's of cycles @ X % DOD. Outside of that the statistics were far worse. The workaround was to build cut-off circuits so that the Lithium batts never exceeded DOD. The subsequent off-shoot of that was the fancy tech caused thermal run-away and in Sony's case.....fire.

Like you I have a degree of scepticism of MTBF claims, that are calculated or manufacturer only claims. Hence my reason for being more interested in actual field results.


the electronics these days (its been 5 years) is pretty good. But I have still seen the od' either electronic failure (making 100% DOD - and causing single digit cycles rather than 1000's) or DOD by-pass failure (boom). So I am very suspicious when someone tells me to trust the black box without telling me what it cuts off at.......then telling me figures of superior quality with figures.

I think that even if you were given the circuit diagram of the BMS you still wouldn't be able to calculate the MTBF. I think what counts for customer confidence is what customers really experience. For many people only seeing is believing....I think I fall into this category.



A million cycles @ 80% DOD is the same as 1 cycle @ 100% DOD if they BMS doesn't cut out before 80% DOD. In Sony's case they never exceeded 90% DOD - but they had some cool fires when it got close (solution was to shut down equipment @ 80% DOD).

Were Sony using LiPo or LiFeP04?
I don't see why a LiFePO4 battery would be more likely to catch on fire at 90% discharge rather than 80% of discharge...unless you were charging it with an uncontrolled source and that at 90% DOD the recharge current was much higher than at 80% discharge - which again doesn't make sense?

The early LiFePO4 Cells were far more likely to brick at 90% discharge than 80% discharge, but this is an area that cell manufacturers have recently claimed improvements in (Yes I am sceptical). The claim is that their cells can now withstand greater Depth Of Discharge and also a higher number of these high Discharge Cycles. Obviously with a microprocessor controlled BMS with a low voltage discharge disconnect, you could set the level to suit the robustness of the cells that you were using. So you might start at 80% and later decide either you were too conservative and or that cell technology improvements now allowed you to go to 95% discharge or vice versa.

[avgas]

Like you I have a degree of scepticism of MTBF claims, that are calculated or manufacturer only claims. Hence my reason for being more interested in actual field results.

I think that even if you were given the circuit diagram of the BMS you still wouldn't be able to calculate the MTBF. I think what counts for customer confidence is what customers really experience. For many people only seeing is believing....I think I fall into this category.

Were Sony using LiPo or LiFeP04?
I don't see why a LiFePO4 battery would be more likely to catch on fire at 90% discharge rather than 80% of discharge...unless you were charging it with an uncontrolled source and that at 90% DOD the recharge current was much higher than at 80% discharge - which again doesn't make sense?

The early LiFePO4 Cells were far more likely to brick at 90% discharge than 80% discharge, but this is an area that cell manufacturers have recently claimed improvements in (Yes I am sceptical). The claim is that their cells can now withstand greater Depth Of Discharge and also a higher number of these high Discharge Cycles. Obviously with a microprocessor controlled BMS with a low voltage discharge disconnect, you could set the level to suit the robustness of the cells that you were using. So you might start at 80% and later decide either you were too conservative and or that cell technology improvements now allowed you to go to 95% discharge or vice versa.
MTBF - I think you find its calculated off the failure rate of the components. The killer used to be electrolytics - which would leak into PCB within 10 years dragging the MTBF. The only reason why manufacturers do burn in tests is to check pre-calculated MTBF's. I had major issues about 7 years ago when Siemens moved non-leaded solder - but MTBF remained the same. Turned out they (with most electronic manufacturers) don't bother to check components MTBF if the product code is the same.

Nah, I don't think Sony were using LiPo's - but it was the BMS that usually caught fire. LiIons exploded...........generally launching about 4G into the air. This was more a hot-burn-off. So the finger was pointed at what was attached to the cells rather than the cells themselves.

Don't take too many of my posts to heart. I cut my engineering teeth on (german) power system protection (much to the stress of my wife) and was anally retentive ever since. But at the end of the day I am my own biggest hypocrite - sometimes I still wire shit up with a "she'll be right" attitude. As boss once said to me "You'll conduct well here".

But yes I expect stats to equal. So if someone quotes me a million cycles @ 80% DOD I expect them to tell me the BMS would never allow 80% DOD.

[FastBikeGear]

MTBF - I think you find its calculated off the failure rate of the components.

Yes MTBFs are normally a calculated figure for predicting a failure rate. They are only accurate within narrow parameters

But we now have a couple of years of real world comparative reliability statistics ...and these are what we should pay most attention to.



But yes I expect stats to equal. So if someone quotes me a million cycles @ 80% DOD I expect them to tell me the BMS would never allow 80% DOD.

?? Sorry I don't understand what you are saying?

[FastBikeGear]

Deleted duplicate post.

[avgas]

?? Sorry I don't understand what you are saying?
10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, but the BMS allows 95% discharge is the same as saying that you can ride this bike a million times @ 80% throttle, but your technically can ride at 95% throttle before the computer says no.

The result is that the computer doesn't prevent anything, and you don't get a million rides you get this first time you hit 95% throttle.
287565

Likewise if you promise 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, but don't promise that BMS prevents 80+% DOD you are not exactly promising 10,000 cycles are you?
Soon as you hit 81% you could brick and get 1 cycle. (extreme example - I don't expect that at all)

Just saying its probably something like this:
X cycles at some peak point (80% DOD) then exponentially drops on either side of that figure. So if the BMS doesn't look after that (which I assume it does) then the stats don't exactly line up.

Unless there is a clause in the warranty that states its the owners responsibility to ensure 80% DOD to get the same number of cycles in the marketing. But I would expect the BMS to set this limit.

[bogan]

10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, but the BMS allows 95% discharge is the same as saying that you can ride this bike a million times @ 80% throttle, but your technically can ride at 95% throttle before the computer says no.

The result is that the computer doesn't prevent anything, and you don't get a million rides you get this first time you hit 95% throttle.
287565

Likewise if you promise 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, but don't promise that BMS prevents 80+% DOD you are not exactly promising 10,000 cycles are you?
Soon as you hit 81% you could brick and get 1 cycle. (extreme example - I don't expect that at all)

Just saying its probably something like this:
X cycles at some peak point (80% DOD) then exponentially drops on either side of that figure. So if the BMS doesn't look after that (which I assume it does) then the stats don't exactly line up.

Unless there is a clause in the warranty that states its the owners responsibility to ensure 80% DOD to get the same number of cycles in the marketing. But I would expect the BMS to set this limit.

Ahh, but then you run into the problem of established benchmarks and user comparisons. 80% DoD is often quoted as a measure of cycle counts, a BMS that allows it to go to 95% compared to a BMS that doesn't stop overdischarge at all, how do they compare them?

Would you say 5000 for the BMS one and 1 for the non BMS one? Or would you say 80% DoD and 10,000 for both? I know which one the BMSless guys would say, so then the BMS guys really need to give a similar number or look like they are lagging behind.

[avgas]

Would you say 5000 for the BMS one and 1 for the non BMS one? Or would you say 80% DoD and 10,000 for both? I know which one the BMSless guys would say, so then the BMS guys really need to give a similar number or look like they are lagging behind.
If the BMS allows for 95% DOD then quoting both @ 80% DOD is like comparing who is going to win a retard sprint.
The winner will still be a retard.
The BMS will still win, but will never achieve the figure quoted @ 80% DOD as it never cut off at that point.
So it would be wiser to quote how many cycles @ DOD cutoff wouldn't it? I mean that is why you have a BMS, isn't it?

FYI my bike can do 1,000 kmh @ 400% throttle.

[FastBikeGear]

If the BMS allows for 95% DOD then quoting both @ 80% DOD is like comparing who is going to win a retard sprint.
The winner will still be a retard.
The BMS will still win, but will never achieve the figure quoted @ 80% DOD as it never cut off at that point.
So it would be wiser to quote how many cycles @ DOD cutoff wouldn't it? I mean that is why you have a BMS, isn't it?

FYI my bike can do 1,000 kmh @ 400% throttle.

Just to stick my oar in here.

80% and 90% DOD figures and cycles may not be indicative of the life of a lithium starter battery. 5% or 10% DOD figures might be relevant. Testing on my bike fitted with an Ultrabatt Lithium, shows that if it takes me five attempts of 5 seconds duration to start my bike that the battery is fully charged after about 5 minutes riding. I doubt that over a 10 year life that most people would reach 80% DOD more than 50 times (5 times a year).

If we are trying to work out what will last longer, and how much longer we have to look at real world failure rates. Unfortunately LiFePO4 starter batteries with inbuilt BMS systems have only been around for a 2 years and LiFePO4 batteries without BMS systems have probably only been around for 3 to 4 years in any significant numbers. We have good experience of lithium batteries used in Electric Vehicles with BMS systems, but their usage patterns are very different.

It seems that the most common 4 causes of battery failure listed in order (from anecdotal dealer feed back are)


Battery being overcharged by faulty regulator (Voltages between 15V and 20V - A very common cause of failure for lead acid and no good for LiFePO4 batteries either! - many so called battery dealers don't take two minutes to do a free voltage regulation check when they install a new battery and the same thing that prematurely killed the last battery kills the next one.
Batteries being consistently under charged by faulty regulator (Charging voltages between 11V and 14.2V for example - Lithiums don't mind this so much but it is a real killer for lead acid batteries.)
*Batteries being flattened by self discharge due to bike not being ridden often enough (A very common cause of premature failure for lead acid batteries, almost never hear about it with LiFePO4 batteries going flat due to long intervals between bike being used)
*being flattened in total loss race setups. Not good for either lithium or lead acid batteries.
Suspected internal disconnection of plates or cells due to vibration (this seems to be suspected when a battery fails within a very short time of purchase and over voltage charging is not measured)
Internal and External short circuiting (relatively rare for lead acid and lithium batteries).


*According to one of the other distributors even lithium batteries that don't have anti-bricking circuitry that are totally flattened in total loss systems (or due to have interior lights left on) can be resurrected with an external BMS charger. But I don't think any subsequent capacity tests have been done on these recovered batteries? And we have no way of knowing how much this might reduce the life span of the battery?


After two years we know that LiFePO4 batteries with inbuilt BMS systems are less than 1% accrued after two years compared to about 14% for lead acid batteries. We know that about 25% of lead acid batteries fail in the first 3 years and about 33% fail in the 4th year, and about 48% by the end of 5 years! which is much higher than I ever expected when I started our reliability survey. I will be very interested to see what the premature failure rate on Lithium batteries with in-built BMS systems will be after 3, 4 and 5years. I suspect it will be well less than 10%.... after 5 years (or 400% more reliable) but only time will tell.

What we need now is some statistics for a two year period from a LiFePO4 batteries that don't have a BMS in them, for comparison purposes from some of the other distributors and manufacturers. But so far I have seen no failure statistics released on these ....yet.

We have some anecdotal indications from our dealers that they are already experiencing a much higher failure rate on LiFePO4 batteries that don't have BMS systems and this is making them very shy of lithium batteries in general. (This is one of the two key reasons that most motorcycle shops don't promote lithium batteries, once bitten, twice shy). We had one dealer in Newmarket tell us last week that he had two of these fail within a very short time on his own bike and he is now very wary of ALL lithium batteries.

[avgas]

we have no way of knowing how much this might reduce the life span of the battery?
Actually you probably do - have you tried asking?

Most manufacturers will give you DOD chart showing ballparks of numbers of cycles depend on DOD rates. I imagine it is sitting on a labcoats desk somewhere in UltraBatt, and was a the way they calculated cutoff points for the non-bricking circuitry.

That is if they designed/engineered the circuit for the BMS......rather than slap components together according to what the chip manufacturers said.

This comes from the R, in R&D.
Pedantic I know, but this is why the gear I work with is designed in Europe/NZ/Aussie/US etc and made is China, SA, Russia....etc
We tend to do the R&D stuff better - where china they sometimes skip the R part all together.

How do you think they came up with 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD? Magic Die?

[FastBikeGear]

Actually you probably do - have you tried asking?

Most manufacturers will give you DOD chart showing ballparks of numbers of cycles depend on DOD rates. I imagine it is sitting on a labcoats desk somewhere in UltraBatt, and was a the way they calculated cutoff points for the non-bricking circuitry.

That is if they designed/engineered the circuit for the BMS......rather than slap components together according to what the chip manufacturers said.

This comes from the R, in R&D.
Pedantic I know, but this is why the gear I work with is designed in Europe/NZ/Aussie/US etc and made is China, SA, Russia....etc
We tend to do the R&D stuff better - where china they sometimes skip the R part all together.

How do you think they came up with 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD? Magic Die?

They ran test cycles in a controlled lab, theorised and extrapolated, they worked out the MTBF of each component and then calculated the MTBF of the system from the individual component values, Hopefully they also factored in some changing temperature scenarios and they performed artificial ageing experiments, they assumed a level of QA in manufacture and assembly, and they assumed a level of care and abuse by the batteries owners and hopefully they factored in some regular batch testing of random samples taken from the end of the production line....all hopefully done in the time honoured well meaning fashion.

Some really good work being done here by the looks of it http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/16/gm-expands-warren-battery-lab-to-better-test-elr-next-gen-volt/ but again it's on EV stuff not starter batteries, so not only do you need to do all of the above you need to factor in a few thousand high amperage current draws to simulate the effects of being used as a starter motor.

I get all this stuff, I understand engineering processes and I understand research and analysis....and I understand marketing....and I am a sceptic!

At this stage what we will be fed is just calculated figures done by engineers (who don't know what they don't know) and then massaged by marketing people.....which I will take with a grain of salt. We won't have meaningful, real tested and measured 3 and 4 year figures for another couple of years.

But what we do have now that is much better than educated guesses is some real world data for the first two years on the reliability of lead acid batteries Vs Ultrabatts' lithium batteries with inbuilt BMS and it is very compelling so far.

Of course to chuck a spanner in the works we now have the next generation Ultrabatt battery which has a completely new BMS in it and a new generation of LiFePo4 cells and hopefully the engineers who designed these know what they are doing again because so far the results have been much better than anyone could have hoped for!

[avgas]

Can I propose a couple of questions you go back to them with then?

"At what point of DOD does the BMS disconnect? how many cycles do you expect at that level of DOD?"

If they come back with 100,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, BMS disconnects @ 95% I question their design logic or comprehension of the english language.

Good to hear about the real world results however. I expect far superior performance for LiPo........so its good to hear you likely to get it.

[FastBikeGear]

If they come back with 100,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, BMS disconnects @ 95% I question their design logic or comprehension of the english language.

Yeah that would be pretty stupid. They are not stupid.

Also remember as a starter battery we are far more interested in 10% DOD or 20% DOD not 80% DOD. Remember these are optimized for and sold as starter batteries no deep storage batteries so if I ask them how many cycles at 80% or 90% DOD they would think it a meaningless question and they may ask what I have been smoking.

If they were building a deep storage battery they would probably use prismatic cells.

[wysper]

It's Graeme, I think. In true KB fashion, since you got that one detail wrong, the entirety of the post is wrong.

Sorry, thanks for playing, you are the weakest link, goodby.

Hahahaha fell into your own trap Drew, goodb

[avgas]

Yeah that would be pretty stupid. They are not stupid.

Also remember as a starter battery we are far more interested in 10% DOD or 20% DOD not 80% DOD. Remember these are optimized for and sold as starter batteries no deep storage batteries so if I ask them how many cycles at 80% or 90% DOD they would think it a meaningless question and they may ask what I have been smoking.

If they were building a deep storage battery they would probably use prismatic cells.
Yeah but 10% DOD doesn't tell me anything about this fancy anti-bricking technology I keep hearing about. Though I would like to hear what happens over the range, as you say - starting battery is where its at.
287640

[Drew]

Just thinking about the power blades. I think the required for the ZX12 is three blades, how does that compare (size wise) to the old model?

[buggerit]

Has anyone tried the new ultrabatts (blades) yet and can we see them at Hampton Downs this weekend?

[FastBikeGear]

These are currently being advertised on our web site here for $172.

However we are going t make a special offer on them of just $138 for customers who already have Ultrabatt batteries or who purchase them at the same time as an Ultrabatt battery.

Ultrabatt battery monitor, lap timer, stop watch, temperature sensor, & engine hour meter.

289783

Features

Large easily readable backlit display.
Backlight shut-off.
Ruged design, 100% water proof. (Designed with motorcycle use in mind).
battery Status, Current voltage, maximum voltage, minium voltage. (resettable).
Programmable voltage alert.
Remote air temperature sensor. Current temperature, maximum temperature, minium temperater.
Ignition time on - shows duration of active ignition on session.
Engine hour meter Counts total hours of engine run time (resettable).
Stop watch with resume feature.
Lap timer. Shows current last and best lap times. A large arrow sign indicates whether new lap is faster or slower.
Stop watch and lap timer functions activated with remote handle bar switch - (included in purchase price).
Easy installation, only 2 wires (Power & Ground) to connect.

Specifications

Size: 41 X 41 x 12 mm
Operating voltage range: 6B-18V
Voltage meter accuracy +/- 0.1 volts
Temp meter range: -20 to 80 degrees celsius
Temp sensor accuracy: +/- 0.5 degrees ceslsius
Reverse voltage and short circuit protection
Power consumption, backlight off/on: 28mA/48mA @ 12V

[FastBikeGear]

Just thinking about the power blades. I think the required for the ZX12 is three blades, how does that compare (size wise) to the old model?

Very similar in size.

Each PowerBlade is just 114x30x91mm (LxWxH).

A Battery consisting of three power blades is 114, 90 x 91mm (LxWxH).

They are so small compared to lead acid batteries that size is rarely of interest. Most customers focus more on weight. Weight of the old 2nd Generation UB600 was 1100 grams. the weight of the new replacement is 1290 grams.
Extra weight is due to:
1. two extra BMS modules,
2. two extra replaceable fuses
3. packaging.

More info here (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)

First shipment of the Gen 3 Ultrabatt multiMIGHTY batteries has completely sold out (many of these were sold before they even arrived in NZ)

Next shipment should arrive next week. (This shipment will be our largest ever of Lithium batteries into New Zealand).

289784

[imdying]

Post up when the blades are in stock, I'll take one (I only need a single for a two stroke race bike).

[FastBikeGear]

Post up when the blades are in stock, I'll take one (I only need a single for a two stroke race bike).


Will do should be next week when the next batch arrives.

[Drew]

Very similar in size.

Each PowerBlade is just 114x30x91mm (LxWxH).

A Battery consisting of three power blades is 114, 90 x 91mm (LxWxH).

They are so small compared to lead acid batteries that size is rarely of interest. Most customers focus more on weight. I realise most people only worry about the weight. Our sidecar is hand built though. Things get fabricated around what we have or are getting, is why I asked about dimensions.

Moot now though, we've got someone elses product in there...until we get a better offer. Hehehehe.

[FastBikeGear]

Here is a pic of my hand and one of ultrabatt's new 3rd generation modular Lithium starter batteries. This pic gives you an idea of just how tiny these starter batteries are!

One PowerBlade as shown is typically used for bikes up to 600cc for larger bikes and cars you simply snap together two or more of these PowerBlades to get the size battery you need. Typically you would use two of these for a 1000 cc four cylinder or three for a 1000 cc v-twin. Each power blade has it's own in-built microprocessor controlled BMS.

So if you change vehicles and want to swap over your battery or you find you need a bigger battery for what ever reason just snap on another Ultrabatt PowerBlade.



289835

[Drew]

The second smallest Superbee battery, starts the ZX12 after two or three attempts to get the juice levels up. Two blades might do the trick, but three is what I think you said was what was specced. Mind, it doesn't have any lights or anything.

[FastBikeGear]

The second smallest Superbee battery, starts the ZX12 after two or three attempts to get the juice levels up. Two blades might do the trick, but three is what I think you said was what was specced. Mind, it doesn't have any lights or anything.

Yes we recommend three for a ZX12 road bike. for a ZX12 track bike you might get away with 2 PowerBlades. If that wasn't enough you can always add a third one at a later date.

[avgas]

Here is a pic of my hand and one of ultrabatt's new 3rd generation modular Lithium starter batteries. This pic gives you an idea of just how tiny these starter batteries are!
Are they $100 yet?

[FastBikeGear]

Sorry we just got caught out with demand, and our first shipment of the new modular Ultrabatt batteries and the entire order sold out before they had even arrived. One of our dealers placed a fairly large order at late notice which was fantastic, but didn't help with our stock planning.

Anyway we just had another large shipment arrive today so we can now supply ex-stock.

Please don't try and order thru KiwiBiker. Pleaes order via our web site or by emailing Liam or Julie.

Julie@FastBikeGear.co.nz
Liam@FastBikeGear.co.nz

For information and product specifications for these new modular batteries please click here. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)

To order from web site go here. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)

[Pussy]

Good little vid of testing an Ultrabatt...

http://youtu.be/Rus78guH9LU

[FastBikeGear]

Good little vid of testing an Ultrabatt...

http://youtu.be/Rus78guH9LU


Interesting because I kept on mucking up my verbiage and this was the third test run in a row on this battery without recharging it. Will do another test on fresh charged battery and post it later. But for the time being it is what it is!

(Did anyone notice the rather embarrassing profanity that slipped in....I din't notice at the time but my wife nearly pissed her self when she watched it)

[AllanB]

I noticed the hat - I need a new one for summer. Add them to the FBG website......

[FastBikeGear]

I noticed the hat - I need a new one for summer. Add them to the FBG website......

Allan I am sorry that the hats as modeled in the Ultrabatt Lithium battery test (http://youtu.be/Rus78guH9LU) do confer a race winning advantage on the wearer (fake straw is lighter than fiberglass helmets) and as such are only available to FastBikeGear sponsored riders.

[bogan]

Nice empirical test vid there Liam. Will the be a sequel to test a few failure modes?

[FastBikeGear]

Nice empirical test vid there Liam. Will the be a sequel to test a few failure modes?


Yes.

We had a customer test the replaceable fuse feature last week. He allowed two batteries to short together. Happy to save fuse protection worked.

This is also a good time to remind that Lithium batteries are not universally the best solution for everyone in every situation which is why we are keen to consult with all customers on their requirements. Despite having our top sales week the week before last for Lithium batteries we still make good profit selling our CTEK lead acid smart chargers. I had a guy drop by today that I advised not to buy a lithium battery.

[Pussy]

Yes.

We had a customer test the replaceable fuse feature last week. He allowed two batteries to short together. Happy to save fuse protection worked.

This is also a good time to remind that Lithium batteries are not universally the best solution for everyone in every situation which is why we are keen to consult with all customers on their requirements. Despite having our top sales week the week before last for Lithium batteries we still make good profit selling our CTEK lead acid smart chargers. I had a guy drop by today that I advised not to buy a lithium battery.

Good on ya! Our bikes have Yuasa batteries in them, and we have a C-TEK optimiser that gets swapped between bikes evey few weeks when we are not using them. Works well!

[FastBikeGear]

Thought people might be interested in a photo of the inside of a lithium battery. Photo shown is of one of the earlier 2nd generation Ultrabatt 600 batteries.

This battery was taken out of it's case to replace the blown short circuit safety fuse. With the newer 3rd gen Ultrabatt batteries the short circuit safety fuse is excessible for replacement via a small removable cover. The fuse is not shown in the photo below as is sits between the teminal and one of the heavy duty cables attached to the top of the battery pack.

Also not shown in this photo is the protection wrap that goes around the battery pack before it is inserted in the case. (I removed this before taking the photo so that you could see the cells).

The cells in this battery are interconnected by laser welded thin stainless steel plates and the BMS (Battery charge Management System) cicuit board is clearly visible in the photo. There are twelve A123 Cylindrical cells in this battery. These are an earlier generation cell to the ones used in the current generation Ultrabatt PowerBlades but they have proven to be very powerful and robust cells - we have several riders in New Zealand running in the top classes still using the older 2nd gen batteries, simply because they have had them for a couple of years and they are working well and see no reason to upgrade to the newer third generation ultrabatt PowerBlades).

As you can see there are no liquids in this battery (other than the paste contained within each cell)

[bogan]

These are an earlier generation cell to the ones used in the current generation Ultrabatt PowerBlades but they have proven to be very powerful and robust cells

Do the blades use the nanoPhosphate tech? (can't remember if I've asked this already)

[FastBikeGear]

Do the blades use the nanoPhosphate tech? (can't remember if I've asked this already)

Hi guys this is a correction to the answer I gave to the question above that Bogan asked earlier.

I can't identify the cells technology being used in the current 3rd Gen Ultrabatt batteries (other than to say it is a LiFePO4 chemistry) .....but I can confirm that the 2nd generation Ultrabatts did use nanoPhosphate tech.

Interested people can find more info on LiFePO4 nanoPhosphate batteries here.

(Interestingly I priced up some nanoPhosphatte cells for my experimental battery and the price of them was over twice that of a comparable non nanoPhosphate cell....these things are not a lot more expensive than regular LiFePO4 cells!)

There are lots of new and very exciting battery constructions and chemistries on the near term horizon. Some of these are very much in the prototype and early development phase. Various flavours of grapene, sodium, etc. Also some of the hybrid super capacitor stuff is starting to look pretty interesting.

Ultrabatt has been testing a short list of candidates for their next gen batteries for a while now. I believe the next (4th Gen Batteries) will continue to use their patented modular PowerBlade physical architecture (because it has proved to be such a smart design) but the internals will be different (can't say anymore for usual two reasons). However expect to hear more of an evolutionary story rather than a revolutionary one when we are able to announce more details later this year.

[FastBikeGear]

Deleted: Sorry I double posted.

[FastBikeGear]

A while ago I mentioned that Ultrabatt were testing and evaluating some higher performance LiFePO4 for use in their batteries and that we were expecting batteries with these cells to be available before the end of the year.

A couple of weeks ago I was advised that Ultrabatt PowerBlades with the Power+ cells would commence shipping much earlier than previously indicated, so I decided not to place another stocking order until the new batteries were shipping.

I thought that we had enough stock in hand to easily cover us for the next couple of months.

I unfortunately misjudged, we have completely sold out of our entire stock of Ultrabatt PowerBlades. (I even gave the original Ultrabatt battery in my own bike to Nick Cole to use in another of his bikes...he's a big fan of them).

The good news is that we have a very large shipment of the new batteries with the Power+ cells scheduled to arrive in eight weeks time from today (We are pushing hard to get even closer to the front of the que).

The other good news is that the price on the new Power+ PowerBlades will be the same as the standard PowerBlades.

However the key potential advantage of the new Ultrabatt Power+ blades is that on several of the larger bikes we expect customers may need one less PowerBlade than before to achieve the same starting performance, which equates to a very significant purchase cost reduction.

Some of you will have seen the youtube videos I have posted of load tests on Ultrabatts modular PowerBlade batteries. As soon as the new batteries arrive I will perform the identical load tests on the new batteries and publish the comparable results. We expect the tests will confirm a significant further increase in performance.

The Ultrabatt PowerBlade batteries are a third generation of LiFePO4 batteries. Because the new PowerPlus PowerBlades are an evolutionary progression rather than a revolutionalry development they are still considered to be a a third generation LiFePo4 battery.

Gen 1 Bunch of Lithium Cells soldered or screwed together in a plastic case with no (or just passive) cell balancing technology
Gen 2 Bunch of Lithium Cells laser welded together in a plastic case with active microprocessor cell balancing technology adn internal non replaceable short cirucit safety fuses
Gen 3 Bunch of Lithium Cells laser welded together in modular PowerBlade snap togther modules with active microprocessor cell balancing technology and replaceable short cirucit safety fuses
Gen 4 see below.



Fourth Generation Tease.

In addition to the above uprated batteries we are currently working on the next major step in battery technology.

How about a battery technology that is 2/3rds the weight of any current Lithium battery.
with a charge time less then 15 minutes....(A single PowerBlade currently takes 30 minutes to fully charge with a 3 Amp charger)
Even lower internal resistance (which makes much higher Cold Cranking Amps achievable from a much lighter battery)


Seem far fetched?

This technology is already being used by NASA on mission critical deployments, but has yet to be commercially deployed for motorbikes due to prohibitive cost of manufacture.
Recent advances in lowering the manufacturing cost now means that this battery technology is getting to the point where it could be commercially viable for use in motorcycle batteries in the near future.

I hope to commence long term tests on this 4th generation technology in my bike next week.
www.FastBikeGear.co.nz
Top brand Motorcycle accessories: R&G Racing, Titax, CTEK, Ultrabatt lithium Batteries, RockSolid, BikeVis, NGR, Oberon, Stopit, TUTORO, Posi-Lock, etc.
Mobile: 0275 985 266 Office, 09 834 6655

[FastBikeGear]

Ultrabatt Update

The new Power plus Power Blades featuring latest generation cells are expected to be here in two weeks and will officially be called Futura-lll PowerBlades to differentiate them from the existing PowerBlades.


Future 4th generation Power Pack field testing progress

I am currently field testing a future 4 generation Power Pack in my bike in a two week tour of the South Island. The results are very impressive.

The Power Pack weighs little more than a single PowerBlade but delivers over twice the cranking capacity. My starter motor has never spun over so fast (even with three UltraBatt PowerBlades). Unfortunately I can't measure the pulse cranking amps from it because our tester only goes to peak of 500 amps.

When I get home I am going to install it in both my three litre turbo diesel van and also try it in my wife's 3 litre BMW Motosport coupe to see how it copes.

We don't expect to see these in production for another six months but we are going to supply a couple of prototypes to some road riders and one of our sponsored riders to continue the reliability testing.

The prototype is currently housed in a handmade case as will be the ones supplied to the other riders for testing.

So far as expected it shows no adverse effects from being deliberately completely discharged multiple times. And we have seen no issues with balancing. Recharge time from flat is several times faster than a PowerBlade. I am a bit nervous to see just how fast we can charge it.

One unexpected advantage is that my electronic ignition seems to really enjoy the very stable voltage it delivers. We have had reports from one dealer using another brand of lithium battery that he has noticed his race bikes Electronic ignition systems do not like the lithium batteries he has tested. We have a couple of unproven theories on why this might be. We are going to give him one of the prototypes to experiment with and report back to us on.

[FastBikeGear]

Thought it was about time to post some photos and more information on the next generation prototype I have been field testing in the Frankencati.

Please note the prototype unit is in a hand made case. Production units will be a shorter wider format and will again be modular allowing you to click together multiple battery packs to create whatever size battery you need.

No current motorcycle on the market comes close to the cranking performance of this battery.

It is less than half the weight of a current generation LiFePO4 battery with similar Pulse Cranking Amps.

To put this in pespective....

A current Generation ultrabatt with a 10 second PCA weighs 1290 grams
A Shorai battery with just a 5 second PCA weighs a massive 1800 grams
A lead acid battery with an equivalent PCA weighs well over 5000 grams

(Remember that many vendors such as Shorai misleadingly quote their 5 second Pulse Cranking Amps as a CCA figure ref http://shoraipower.com/faq whereas vendors such as Ultrabatt quote both PCA and CCA figures but use a tougher 10 second PCA test)


I have just completed a several thousand kilometer trip around New Zeand with this battery in our Frankencati. Dealers we showed the prototype to were astounded by it's weight and performance. Less than half the wait of any current generation LiFePO$ battery. Vidoes coming soon.

Let me clearly state this here, Like all technology, we are not claiming that this battery pack is all things to all people.

[bogan]

A current Generation ultrabatt with a 10 second PCA weighs 1290 grams

How many PCAs are we talking?

Looking forward to the version that doesn't come wrapped in insulation tape :sunny:

[FastBikeGear]

How many PCAs are we talking?

We don't know as yet, but we do know that it cranks over the Frankecati with more urge than a current generation 360 PCA Ultrabatt battery.

We know that this prototype will stick out well over this. From measuring we know that the Frankencati draws over 350 Peak Cranking Amps when in the first moment it initiates turning the starter motor, and we don't want to overstate anything until we have hard measurements to back them up.

It could be that it can deliver over 500 amps without destroying itself.....but it's the only prototype I have and I am nervous that if I try to find it's upper limit I will destroy it...and besides my load tester maxes out at 500 amps.


Looking forward to the version that doesn't come wrapped in insulation tape :sunny:

Hey what are you inferring! There is high quality 2mm plastic sheet under that insulation tape that someone spent minutes cutting out and gluing together!
The Solid Works stuff has already commenced and I hope we will have a prototype 3D printed case in my hands within about six weeks.
The prototype doesn't even have a user replaceable fuse in it yet (which will be an essential safety item for this just as it is for any high amperage battery)

We don't expect to be able to sell production units for some months. There is a lot more work to be signed off yet and the tests done so far are only a subset of what needs to be done in different configurations. We don't acutally envisage it will be deployed in the manner that we have been testing it so far.

Please note for commercial reasons I can't answer some questions at the moment, so if I don't answer all the questions asked it's not because I am rude.

But I thought people would like an early look at what's coming down the road.

[FastBikeGear]

Here is a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxN72cAzpDI) that gives an inclination of the performance of the new prototype fitted to the Frankencati.

Please note that for these tests this bike was retrofitted with a modern high performance MOSFET regulator. (Not sure that the old regulator would have coped with or show cased the very high charging currents that the prototype can handle).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxN72cAzpDI

[nzspokes]

All is not well?

http://hp2enduro.com/hp2e_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3169.last

[FastBikeGear]

All is not well?

http://hp2enduro.com/hp2e_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3169.last

There was a batch of Ultrabatt MultiMighty batteries made with different cells in them. A123 Systems are the acknowledged technology leaders in LiFEPO4 technology, it's why companies like Ultrabatt were willing to pay more for their cells. Unfortunately A123 Systems went into chapter 11 and there was some uncertainty over whether they would be able to continue to supply cells, so Ultrabatt switched to another brand of cells. Unfortunately a percentage of the cells they switched to had well below par performance.

Ultrabatt recalled our stock of the faulty batch for replacement.

We got some of these in NZ and some of them slipped through to customers before we were aware of the problem and we have swapped these out. We know of four batteries from the suspect batch that are currently in use in NZ and while they are working OK at the moment it is possible that they will be probelmeatic later in their life. It is now just a timing issue to swap these out with those customers.

A123 Systems was subsequently purchased by another company and their financical future again looks solid. While there are a handful of other companies that make LiFeP04 cells that

The current PowerBlades are again using the latest version of the A123 Systems nanophosphate cells.

All Ultrabatt batteries are of course covered by FULL VALUE two year replacement warranty.

[BuzzardNZ]

You didnt get the memo?

It just arrived!

[FastBikeGear]

OK this is just getting ridiculous.

Testing new prototype motorcycle battery unit in 6 cylinder BMW 330 Motorsport Coupe.

http://youtu.be/7LU3z1mDUrg

The original fitment battery in this car a DIN 77L is rated at 720CCA and weighs a staggering 18.5 Kgs!
(Ref http://bestbatteries.co.nz/categorie...tery-alco.html)

Remember the prototype weighs just 500 grams.

We need to be clear and not over hype the performance of the prototype. We can't claim that the prototype has a much cranking capacity as the original BMW battery (because our test doesn't show this. All we can claim is that we have a prototype that can start the same vehicle that the original fitment 720 CCA battery starts.)

We haven't found out what the upper performance limit of this is yet.

Nor do we want to start quoting the life of it until we have a lot more testing under our belts but we we have every expectation from claims made for the cells by the manufacturer and what we are seeing so far in the excellent balance between the cells that we are achieving that is indicating it will out last any lithium battery on the market that doesn't have a BMS in it by a very significant factor. The reliability and lifespan will probably be limited by factors other than the cells.

What vehicle next? Perhaps a diesel will be more challenging. Luckily I have a 3 litre turbo diesel in my van and We also have a bigger diesel in our 7 Metre truck (but I am pretty sure we will need two of these modules for the big truck!

Testing 500 gram prototype in Six Cylinder car.

http://youtu.be/7LU3z1mDUrg

I truly believe that is beginning to look like wee are working with one of the future starter battery technologies.

[avgas]

OK this is just getting ridiculous.
295434

But does it blend?

[FastBikeGear]

Just to give you an idea of how small the PowerBlades are

The other Lithium battery shown in the photos below is supposed to have a A 5 second PCA of 210 Cranking Amps.

The two Ultrabatt's have a 10 second PCA of 240 cranking amps.

As you can see the other brans LFX 144 is about a 1/3 bigger than two Ultrabatt PowerBlades and has less Cranking Amps

Keep in mind that each Ultrabatt PowerBlade also houses a replaceable fuse and BMS.

Photos tell the story best.

4th picutre below shows two Ultrabatt PowerBlades clipped together with the terminal covers on one of the PowerBlades.

295767295768295769295770

Also keep in mind that we are currently testing a Prototype battery pack with 3 x as much cranking power (but with less storage capacity) than a single PowerBlade that is only 70 grams heavier than a single PowerBlade!!

[Dave-]

Hi Liam,

Do Ultrabatt test CCA at -18 degrees Celsius, @ 7.2V for 30 seconds?

Is PCA tested under the same conditions except for 10 seconds (as stated by the website)?

What is the actual (not Pbeq) capacity of an Ultrabatt?

[FastBikeGear]

Hi Liam,

Do Ultrabatt test CCA at -18 degrees Celsius, @ 7.2V for 30 seconds?

Is PCA tested under the same conditions except for 10 seconds (as stated by the website)?

What is the actual (not Pbeq) capacity of an Ultrabatt?

No. The CCA test is a PbEq rating - it's a marketing answer to a technical question. I am not aware of any Lithium battery company that does testing at -18 degrees Celsius. But the good news is that for most (but not all customers i.e. those down at Scott's Base, etc). It is largely of academic interest only.

What would be of more interest in NZ would be -5 degree PCA tests.

PCA testing is done at at a nominated ambient temperature. I believe it is 20 degrees Celsius. Have seriously thought about how we might perform these tests locally in a large freezer.

Lithium batteries as you are no doubt aware do not perform as well as lead acid batteries at cold temperature. Luckily there is a very simple self heating starting process that works very well and both we and Ultrabatt spec the PCA to ensure good cold weather starting. In NZ cold weather starting has never been an issue for any Ultabatt customer we are aware of.

In addition we also have a specific lithium battery cold weather solution that will work in well below freezing conditions in places such as the Antarctic. Please fell free to contact me for more details on that option.

If you let me know your specific requirements, peak breakaway cranking amps of your starter and continuos cranking amps I can advise you accordingly. We can also take these measurements for your vehicle if required. Alternatively can you advise me what vehicle you need to start? If you have concerns about temperature please let me know the coldest temperature you will be starting your vehicle in?


Liam@fastbikegear.co.nz
09 834 6655

[avgas]

In addition we also have a specific lithium battery cold weather solution that will work in well below freezing conditions in places such as the Antarctic. Please fell free to contact me for more details on that option.
I'm interested, and have been since Ed politely told me a few years ago that they are not suitable.
I need something that can handle a continuous trickle drain at sub-zero temps.

So not a starting battery. But just something that has more than 20Ah life to it.
Previous experience with Li based was I ended up with frigid bricks below zero. Usually with 1/2 or less of their juice.

[FastBikeGear]

I'm interested, and have been since Ed politely told me a few years ago that they are not suitable.
I need something that can handle a continuous trickle drain at sub-zero temps.

So not a starting battery. But just something that has more than 20Ah life to it.
Previous experience with Li based was I ended up with frigid bricks below zero. Usually with 1/2 or less of their juice.

Unlike the Shorai batteries our specific cold weather solution means that very high cranking amps in sub zero degrees are no issue for us. However our lithium LiFePO4 battery solutions are all optimised as starter batteries. It sounds like what you need is more akin to deep storage batteries? It seems your key requirement is amp hours not cranking amps?

For dollar, size & weight per CRANKING AMPS it's pretty hard to beat a lithium battery.

But for dollar per Ah a lead acid battery is still pretty hard to beat.

Feel welcome to call to discuss your needs.

[Dave-]

No. The CCA test is a PbEq rating - it's a marketing answer to a technical question. I am not aware of any Lithium battery company that does testing at -18 degrees Celsius. But the good news is that for most (but not all customers i.e. those down at Scott's Base, etc). It is largely of academic interest only.

What would be of more interest in NZ would be -5 degree PCA tests.

PCA testing is done at at a nominated ambient temperature. I believe it is 20 degrees Celsius. Have seriously thought about how we might perform these tests locally in a large freezer.

Lithium batteries as you are no doubt aware do not perform as well as lead acid batteries at cold temperature. Luckily there is a very simple self heating starting process that works very well and both we and Ultrabatt spec the PCA to ensure good cold weather starting. In NZ cold weather starting has never been an issue for any Ultabatt customer we are aware of.

In addition we also have a specific lithium battery cold weather solution that will work in well below freezing conditions in places such as the Antarctic. Please fell free to contact me for more details on that option.

If you let me know your specific requirements, peak breakaway cranking amps of your starter and continuos cranking amps I can advise you accordingly. We can also take these measurements for your vehicle if required. Alternatively can you advise me what vehicle you need to start? If you have concerns about temperature please let me know the coldest temperature you will be starting your vehicle in?


Liam@fastbikegear.co.nz
09 834 6655

I'll flick you an email Liam, thanks.

[avgas]

Unlike the Shorai batteries our specific cold weather solution means that very high cranking amps in sub zero degrees are no issue for us. However our lithium LiFePO4 battery solutions are all optimised as starter batteries. It sounds like what you need is more akin to deep storage batteries? It seems your key requirement is amp hours not cranking amps?

For dollar, size & weight per CRANKING AMPS it's pretty hard to beat a lithium battery.

But for dollar per Ah a lead acid battery is still pretty hard to beat.

Feel welcome to call to discuss your needs.
Actually for the application if we can reduce size its a huge improvement - and Ah are better for size in Lithium.
As you can imagine hauling deep cycle SLAs up into trees, poles and huts is not entertaining.

I ended up sticking the PCB's next to some Li-Ions and sealed them up to tape. Which is fine for sub-zero.......but warmer could cause boom.

If the battery was isolated......it got cold....it got dead. Li-Ion and Li-Po seems to give me the same result (it was really annoying). But the LiPo was not expensive brands.

But as you can imagine, high quality SLA's don't come cheap, least not with 5 year warrenties. And weigh a ton when you think 10+Ah.

[FastBikeGear]

Actually for the application if we can reduce size its a huge improvement - and Ah are better for size in Lithium.
As you can imagine hauling deep cycle SLAs up into trees, poles and huts is not entertaining.

I ended up sticking the PCB's next to some Li-Ions and sealed them up to tape. Which is fine for sub-zero.......but warmer could cause boom.

If the battery was isolated......it got cold....it got dead. Li-Ion and Li-Po seems to give me the same result (it was really annoying). But the LiPo was not expensive brands.

But as you can imagine, high quality SLA's don't come cheap, least not with 5 year warrenties. And weigh a ton when you think 10+Ah.


Call me O275 985 266

[FastBikeGear]

Guys it is not directly related to the subject of LiFeP04 batteries although we have certainly discovered that a good stable voltage supply helps with the performance of Ignition systems!

And I know that many of the same boffins who are following this thread are also interested in the performance of ignition systems.

The Ignitech programmable ignition units have proven very popular in New Zealand so I thought it was about time we had a discussion thread for them.

I have started a new thread on the Ignitech units here. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/166426-Ignitech-programmable-ignition-manual)

I am happy to attempt to answer any technical queries in that thread for any one who has one. My experience is limited to their TCIP4 units for carburetor end vehicles.

We have been importing and distributing the Ignitech TCI-P4 ignition systems in New Zealand for some time and we have gained quite a bit of experience with the unit fited to our Frankencati. The Frankencati set up proved to a really good test bed for learning about the systems as it is also been fitted with our own Dual Spark Plug heads and getting the ignition otimised to work with these proved more of a challenge than expected.

We came to the realisation very early in the pice that the Ignitech supplied manual suffered from English being the writers second language and it also lacked instructions on new featuers that had been added tothe units over the years, etc.
We have been importing and distributing the Ignitech TCI-P4 ignition systems in New Zealand for some time and we have gained quite a bit of experience with the unit fited to our Frankencati. The Frankencati set up proved to a really good test bed for learning about the systems as it is also been fitted with our own Dual Spark Plug heads and getting the ignition otimised to work with these proved more of a challenge than expected.

We came to the realisation very early in the piece that the Ignitech supplied manual suffered from English being the writers second language and it also lacked instructions on new featuers that had been added tothe units over the years, etc.

So I began writing our own manual for the units a couple of years ago and I have been giving this away on request to customers all over the world. Over time and with lots of custmer feed back it's got better and more detailed. I have just finished the biggest rewrite of this that I have done in sometime.

It contains extra detail and clearer explanations than the Ignitech supplied manual which should make understandanding and setting up your unit easier. Sections in navy blue are the sections added/altered by FastBikeGear to the original Ignitech manual.

The manual is focused around setting these units up on Ducati bikes but should be equally valuable to assisting with setting them up on other bikes.

The purpose of creating the FastBikeGear Ignitech manual is to:

1. Improve the readability.
2. Add explanations on how it works (pieced to gather by assumptions, testing, and extra information I have obtained from Ignitech).
3. Add more detail and explanations
4. Document the extra features that the new firmware gives you access to.

I have started a new thread on the Ignitech units here. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/166426-Ignitech-programmable-ignition-manual)

[FastBikeGear]

Interesting article clck on link below. The batteries used in Formula One use exactly the same nano-phosphate battery technology used in the Ultrabatt batteries that we supply today.

The nano-phosphate chemistry in the latest LiFePO4 cells used in Ultrabatt batteries incrementally better cold weather performance and enables faster charging times than the earlier generations of LiFePO4 cells.

Although not covered in the article in the link below, we we have very good reason to suggest that some of the teams are already using the next step in battery technology that we hope to have available for mainstream use and purchase late this year.

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3909/chemical-power

[FastBikeGear]

On Thursday we received our first shipment of the upgraded Ultrabatt 'Futura lll' PowerBlades and will commenced shipping out back orders Friday

The new 'Futura lll' version of the Powerblades use the very latest generation Nano-Phosphate cells available from A123 Systems

I have had a chance to have a quick look over them and run some preliminary tests.

...we are impressed.

We had heard a rumour that while they were the same size they would be even lighter again, so the first thing I did was put them on the digital scales. The new PowerBlades are about 25 grams lighter than the old PowerBlades which is not really a big deal but it just shows that incremental improvements are being made on a regular basis.

Ultrabatt don't claim any higher performance numbers for the batteries ...but they do publish charts showing the new cells in these batteries do have significantly better cold weather performance.

Cold weather performance is really the only remaining achillies heel of Lithium starter batteries, so improved cold weather performance is a worthwhile bonus. Every few degrees increase in ambient temperature makes a suprisingly large improvement in the maximum cranking amps the batteries can deliver and the end voltage of the batteries after the test.

I ran a quick 30 second Cranking Amps test on them at 16 degrees Celsius on our carbon pile load tester at an ambient temperature of 16 degrees, and then compared this with Cranking Amps tests made on the previous version of PowerrBlades and another brand of battery that I have in the workshop for bench marking.

Results at 16 degres Celsius were incrementally higher than the same tests made on the previous version of PowerBlades made at 20 degrees celsius.

We also noted that if we ran the test repetitively without recharging the batteries inbetween, the voltage held up better than on any other Lithium battery we have ever tested.

We will be running some more tests on these batteries at various loads and temperatures so that we can get a fuller picture of their performance....but it is apparrent that the cell technology just keeps on improving incrementally every few months.

[bogan]

Are them new ones the same voltage? (obvioously stil 12V rated, but working voltage etc?) the f1 article mentioned something about a lower voltage for nLFP which I had not heard before...

[FastBikeGear]

Are them new ones the same voltage? (obvioously stil 12V rated, but working voltage etc?) the f1 article mentioned something about a lower voltage for nLFP which I had not heard before...

Yes exactly the same nominal resting voltage (13.2) and same charging voltage (14.4-14.6V) as before, less voltage drop under load though.

The way I am reading that article some of the chemistries used by some teams in formula 1 in the past were not LiFeP04, but Lithium cobalt/managanese, etc and had a higher resting voltage (3.7V) per cell but were slower to charge and not as stable as Lithium Phosphate batteries....one of the key reasons all lithium starter batteries sold commercially are lithium phosphate chemistries.

The lithium batteries using nano technology are much faster to charge. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanobatteries.

[FastBikeGear]

The new cold weather MegaBooster battery packs are now available for sale.

These are a development from an earlier prototype shown many months ago here starting a six cylinder 3 liter BMW.

http://youtu.be/7LU3z1mDUrg

As is the norm now, these have an inbuilt cell balancing system to maximize their life span and can be directly charged with your bikes charging system. They do not require a fancy smart charger, etc. These are a truly plug in and forget units. They will maintain there full cranking capacity in extremely cold conditions (rated for use to -18 degrees Celsius) and they will withstand repeated 100% discharge cycles.

More detailed information on these new battery packs is now on our web site here:

http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=762&products_id=6238

Current price on these is $150

For further information please contact FastBikeGear directly as I rarely get a chance these days to correspond via kiwibiker.

[Dave-]

Check out what showed up in the lab today!

I'm working on the Formula SAE car at Canterbury University. We needed a battery that was physically small, lightweight that still packed the punch we needed to kick over our wee Husky 450. We also have quite a lot of load in the form of data acquisition and a few other secrets (all will be revealed) so we needed a battery that had good capacity too.

I weighed up the Ultrabatt against the Shorai and found the Ultrabatts had the highest capacity and cranking current for their mass and volume. The 2013 team used Shorai, I was a bit disappointed that it has started causing problems after roughly 1 year (detuned 2008 R6 motor, used like a race bike).

So I went with Ultrabatt. When we got these in today I was really impressed with the build quality, everything snaps together really nice and each blade comes with enough bits to fit it to another blade (I have excess as you can imagine!) Liam from fastbikegear helped us get in contact with Ultrabatt and organise sponsorship.

I'll keep you guys updated with any tid-bits, we should be on a rolling chassis by the end of the week. We have a running engine in our dyno rig, but running engine in the car is difficult as there is quite a comprehensive tuning phase to go through (that should be a hint that this is no ordinary husky 450).

299739

(graphs for those who missed them)
299741
299742
299743
299744

[FastBikeGear]

Click on link below for video of an Ultrabatt lithium battery starting a V8 race car.

Once we had done the test the owner drove off with it and a few more goodies for his car.

His old 12 kg lead acid battery was just 480 CCA.

The 2 kg replacement Ultrabatt a battery was 600 PCA...and of course we can easily supply a 5000 PCA battery if anyone wants to start a larger 24 cylinder diesel truck.

http://youtu.be/A8DDbCZMG7A

[FastBikeGear]

Incredible to think that each of these small brown boxes hold 50 Ultrabatt lithium batteries! In the old days of gel batteries we would have needed a fork lift and a couple of hours to move 500 batteries into the store room. Now A little weed like me can easily lift and carry a box of 50 batteries to the store room at a time. But it's been over an hour since I last had a cup of coffee....Julie I have a job for you....

[FastBikeGear]

Original battery 10Kg, replacement lithium battery 1.6Kg. This BMW had a monster 10kg 385 CCA battery in it! After measuring the break away starting amps at 130A and continuous cranking amps at 80A I determined this bike could easily be started by a battery consisting of just three Ultrabatt PowerBlades, but given this particulars bike's intended use (being shipped around the world to do epic intrepid tours in god forsaken lands) and previous history of eating batteries we determined that a bit of overkill might not be a bad thing and opted to add a fourth PowerBlade. Bike was on display in cafe and hadn't been started for many months (still had old fuel in it,) but credit to the character of this bike, it started straight up!

[FastBikeGear]

Video of an Ultrabatt lithium battery starting one of our customers V8 cars.

This battery was less than 1/6th of the weight of the battery it replaced.

http://youtu.be/A8DDbCZMG7A

[BlackSheepLogic]

I'm thinking about a drop in replacement for a Yuasa YT12A-BS (10Ah). I'm mostly interested in Ah & long term discharge rates.

[FastBikeGear]

I'm thinking about a drop in replacement for a Yuasa YT12A-BS (10Ah). I'm mostly interested in Ah & long term discharge rates.

What vehicle is it for. Normally for starter batteries we are more interested in Cranking Amps than capacity?

[BlackSheepLogic]

What vehicle is it for. Normally for starter batteries we are more interested in Cranking amps than capacity?

The bike is a Hayabusa, I bought it for touring.

[FastBikeGear]

The bike is a Hayabusa, I bought it for touring.

Our direct experience with a Haybusa and our Ultrabatt batteries tells us the best solution for a Hayabusa daily rider/tourer is a three PowerBlade Ultrabatt. Yes It's a bit of overkill for the Hayabusa, but it's better to have more battery than less to get a higher confidence of meeting our 10 year lifespan target....and to cope with the eventual ageing of your starter motor. The Ultrabatts have the BMS charging system built into the battery so your bikes charging system will charge the battery perfectly every time, so you won't need a special external BMS charger, etc.

For further info and pricing and ordering click on link below. We have heaps of these in stock and you can either pick them up (in which case we will give your bike's charging system a free quick test and health check) or just courier the battery to you overnight.


http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=762&products_id=1197

[yevjenko]

Nearly 400 bucks yet you claim it's cheaper? That's pushing it a bit. I could almost buy 4 agm batteries for that price

[BlackSheepLogic]

The Yuasa is 175CCA 10AH. I can't pull half that capacity out without severally impacting it's useable life time. The limited storage life is another big neg as well.

175CCA seems well over spec'ed for the bike and the climate here. 120CCA should easily start the stock busa. The wiring on busa is not rated for 380CCA anyway and if the bike was that hard to start if would not stay running. A 24V starter circuit would be what I would use if I needed more but my engine is stock so it's not what I'm looking for in an upgrade.

I'm looking for 20Ah in li-ion that's a drop in. With the lithium it's not only a higher power density but I can extract more out of it without killing it. They also only lose 10% of their charge over a year. Shorai in this category looks to be 1/2 the cost.


our direct experience tells with a Haybusa and our Ultrabatt batteries tells us the best solution for a Hayabusa is a three PowerBlade Ultrabatt. Yes I t's a bit of overkill for the Hayabusa ,but it's better to have more battery than less to get a higher confidence of meeting our 10 year lifespan target. The Ultrabatts have the BMS charging system built into the battery so your bikes charging system will charge the battery perfectly every time, so you won't need a special external BMS charger, etc.

For further info and pricing and ordering click on link below. We have heaps of these in stock and you can either pick them up (in which case we will give your bike's charging system a free quick test and health check) or just courier the battery to you overnight.


http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=762&products_id=1197

[bogan]

The Yuasa is 175CCA 10AH. I can't pull half that capacity out without severally impacting it's useable life time. The limited storage life is another big neg as well.

175CCA seems well over spec'ed for the bike and the climate here. 120CCA should easily start the stock busa. The wiring on busa is not rated for 380CCA anyway and if the bike was that hard to start if would not stay running. A 24V starter circuit would be what I would use if I needed more but my engine is stock so it's not what I'm looking for in an upgrade.

I'm looking for 20Ah in li-ion that's a drop in. With the lithium it's not only a higher power density but I can extract more out of it without killing it. They also only lose 10% of their charge over a year. Shorai in this category looks to be 1/2 the cost.

CCA should be overspeced with respect to normal useage, as you want it to start when really cold too I assume? I've had 155CCA labeled batteries struggle to start my 650 v-twin on cold palmy mornings.

Starter batts aren't designed for large capacity, if you really need that it might be worth going dual storage tech like motor homes (have you considered buying a goldwing?), or else you will just end up with an overkill on the available cranking amps.

[FastBikeGear]

The Yuasa is 175CCA 10AH. I can't pull half that capacity out without severally impacting it's useable life time. The limited storage life is another big neg as well.

Not sure why the amp/hours would have any effects on lifespan? Remember while your engine is running, your bike is running on the output of your regulator not the battery. You should expect a minimum of a five year life from a lithium battery and you should have a target life of 10 years (although no doubt some customers will get longer). If you don't get at least twice the lifespan out of a lithium battery the cost of ownership per annum for a lithium battery would be expensive. Underspeccing starting amperage requirements however will shorten the lifespan of any battery. Because wieght and size is not such a priority in cars, car batteries are more often not underspecced for the cranking amps. It"s one of the reasons I believe that car batteries often last so much longer than bike batteries.



175CCA seems well over spec'ed for the bike and the climate here. 120CCA should easily start the stock busa. The wiring on busa is not rated for 380CCA anyway and if the bike was that hard to start if would not stay running. A 24V starter circuit would be what I would use if I needed more but my engine is stock so it's not what I'm looking for in an upgrade.

I might be guilty of overspeccing your battery. You could certainly try two PowerBlades and simply add another if you have any reservations. Have you measured your instantaneous break away current? Typically motorcycle starter motors draw anywhere from 130 to 300 cranking amps in the first half second to initiate the turning of the starter motor and then you will see the current drop back to figure of less than half the break away current to continue spinning the starter motor for the next couple of seconds it might take to start the bike. We know that you can put a smaller two PowerBlade Ultrabatt battery in your bike and it will start it ....but we don't want to have you need to replace it in a few years time ....which makes it expensive to own. The amount of amps drawn in that first instant to get your starter motor spinning is primarily determined by your starter motor not the particular size of your lithium battery (because all lithium starter batteries have VERY little internal resistance). Your stock wiring will easily handle the instaneous break away current your starter motor draws and if your starter motor jams or your solenoid or starter motor, or wiring develops a dead short the excessive current will blow the $2 replaceable safety fuse in the battery. (Surpising how many of these fuses we supply to customers who have htis happen or inadvertnely put a spanner in the wrong place!)

Todd is running a 2 x PowerBlade, Ultrabatt battery in his Hayabusa drag bike but in talking with him I know that he is probably going to add a a third one shortly. He assures me that even though this is a highly modified turboed 9 sec 1/4 mile bike that it is no harder to start than a normal Haybusa.

We have all previously been conditioned to accept that lead acid batteries are consumables (like tyres) and this understandably shaped our attidudes to batteries, but with modern battery technology expectations are changing. For example a Stonk MegaBooster will in most probably last the life of a vechicle (10-25 years?) an in most cases a lithium battery will typically last for the first few owners of a vehicle or if it is a modular battery they might transfer it to their next bike when they change bikes.


Cranking amps on lithium batteries stay fairly constant above 13 degrees Celsius. Some lithium batteries (usually ones using cylindrical cells) perform better than others below this temperature. But in our Temperature Vs Load testing 13 degrees is about the temperature that we typically see the cranking amps of lithium batteries start to decrease. Cold temperature operation is an area where we have seen remarked improvements in the latest generations of cylindrical cells. A123Systems claim their cells have the best cold weather cranking performance and our limited testinfg of a couple of three brands backs this up. However we still like to factor in some margin for cold weather starting and a 175 lithium battery rated at 175 Cranking Amps has little room for margin on your bike. (Remember no Lithium battery has a true CCA rating because CCA ratings are done at -18 degrees Celcius and no lithium battery on the market today can opeate at this temperature - so unfortunately this is where marketing and engineering diverge.)

We also know from testing that similar size and weight competitive batteries on full load testers, that Ultrabatt's have considerably more a/h capacity than the other brand you mentioned and we also know that our target life (and full value replacemet warranty period) are twice that of the other brand you mentioned. You also won't need to buy a special BMS charger for our battery to get this extended lifesapn because the BMS is built into the battery and manages the charging EVERY SINGLE INSTANT your battery is being charged.

There are any number of cheap lithium batteries without BMS systems and safety fuses on the market. And there are also a lot of high quality long lifespan lithium batteries now on the market with built in BMS systems. This is the market that Ultrabatt competes in, What differentiates Ultrabatt is that they have a modular battery and they have a internal user replaceable safety fuse (cost $2). In any month we replace several fuses. In each instance where a $2 fuse blows, the fuse has probably saved the customer $100's. (by not prematurely shortening the lifespan of the battery or damaging other componentry on the bike).

It's amazing how often an Ultrabatt proves to be the 2nd brand of lithium battery people buy. A few posts up I mentioned a BMW bike that we have just installed an Ultrabatt in. That bike had previously gone through two cheap lithium batteries in a very short space of time and earlier this week we replaced another of the same brand of lithium battery for another customer.

Despite some pretty harsh treatment some of our batteries get....and I know I am tempting fate by saying this..... but to date we know of NO customer (NONE, NADA, ZERO, ZIP) in New Zealand who has had to purchase another battery to replace an Ultrabatt PowerBlade battery.

We know that part of the reason Ultrabatt batteries are surviving so well is because:


of course they have an in built BMS in them,
that they use the very robust A123 Systems nano phosphate cylindrical cells in them,
that they have a user replaceable short circuit fuse in them,
but also part of the reason I suspect is because we are always keen to overspec rather than underspec cranking capacity.


We know we can't win every customer's business, but with lithium batteries it certainly is the case of you get what you pay for.

[FastBikeGear]

Hayabusa recommendations.

A before and after picture of Todd's Hayabusa drag bike with a two PowerBlade Ultrabatt lithium battery in it. Please see notes in the above post about this specific bike....and yes Todd also uses this 9 second 1/4 mile turbo bike as his daily rider!

[Gravelrashgreen]

Thought about putting 2 x Ultrabatt 'blades' in my 2006 Duc S2R 800, they looked like the equivalent of the standard Yuasa YT12B-BS job, similar looking CCA etc but when I talked to the 'expert' at Fast Bikes he said I would need three blades to be able to offer me the five year warranty as two blades do not have the same CCA (they use some very misleading specs on their applications chart) as the YT12B-BS in cold conditions. Even if I had decided to shell out the almost $400 for their ultra batt it would not have fitted in the holder due to its height, there would have been plenty of room around the sides though. Essentially they would not sell me their batteries as they did not want any to fail because of the resulting bad reputation, fair enough I suppose but maybe these are not so good for day to day riding, more for your race types who want to save every ounce of weight. Looks like I will be sticking with am old school lead acid battery and I will invest in a maintenance charger (about $60-).

[FastBikeGear]

Ultrabatt Lithium battery (with 3 x PowerBlades $389NZ RRP) in a Honda ST1300 Pan European.

311217

[FastBikeGear]

Ultrabatt battery (2 x PowerBlades $289 NZ RRP) in Honda Crosstourer

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[Drew]

So, we've found a very real instance that the Shorai is superior.

Quite a major one, in that they are shaped to fit into standard bike holders...and it seems quite a bit cheaper.

[FastBikeGear]

Both here in NZ and in Aus we and our Australian counterparts have been fitting quite a few Ultrabatt PowerPaks into V8s and other cars .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbEXkQjF7jk

[bogan]

So, we've found a very real instance that the Shorai is superior.

Which one?

[Drew]

Which one?

The post was quite clear. They fit, and they're cheaper.

Interesting that the best response the distributor felt he could make, had nothing to do with motorcycles.

[bogan]

The post was quite clear. They fit, and they're cheaper.

Interesting that the best response the distributor felt he could make, had nothing to do with motorcycles.

Whose post? What response?

[nzspokes]

Whose post? What response?

Try reading through this page again.

Here is a Motobatt starting a V6.

[bogan]

Try reading through this page again.

I've read every post made in this thread this year, first one mentioning shorai is drew's.

[Dave-]

I've read every post made in this thread this year, first one mentioning shorai is drew's.

Drew thinks this is a reply from 'ultrabatt' to his post which claims Shorai is better.


Both here in NZ and in Aus we and our Australian counterparts have been fitting quite a few Ultrabatt PowerPaks into V8s and other cars .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbEXkQjF7jk

[FastBikeGear]

Some before and after photos of an Ultrabatt installation in a Panigale. Fits very nicely, saves 1.6Kg and will probably last the life of this bike.

312975312970312971312972312973312974

[bogan]

and will probably last the life of this bike.

Yeh, but its a ducati, an AA would probably do the same :Pokey:

[FastBikeGear]

Some before and after photos of an Ultrabatt installation in a Moto Guzzi Magni....beautiful bike!

This bike came in with a stuffed battery, rough running and an intermittent fault that caused the engine to cut out intermittently with no warning.

I put the bike on the ignition scope and some of the problems were immediately visible and identifiable.

Replaced some of the wiring in the primary ignition loom, fitted two matched Nology coils, some FastBikeGear UltraRace 8mm silicon solid copper core race leads and an Ultrabatt modular PowerBlade Lithium battery. Bike runs sweetly now and sounds epic. A thing of beauty!

Bike was fitted with a 1 year old Motobatt that was stuffed. Battery reconditioner indicated it had sulphated up probably due to the bike not being run often enough. Obviously lithium batteries have no nasty sulphuric acid and don't suffer from sulphation or self discharge if sitting unused. The replacement Lithium battery will hold a starting charge up to one year so it shouldn't be an issue now if this bike is not run often.

Saved 4.5Kgs of weight and increased nominal Cranking amps from 200 to 270 for brisker starting!

As you can see when I tried to weigh the Motobatt it exceeded the maximum weight of my scales so we looked up the weight of the Motobatt (5.5kgs) on the Internet.

[FastBikeGear]

Just a heads up. We are going to be running a special on Ultrabatt lithium batteries next month. We are going to set aside a number of batteries at a VERY special price and it will be first in first served. We haven't confirmed how many we will allocate to the special promotion but thinking probably be just the first 100 batteries sold in August. To get the promotional pricing we will ask that you place the 100mm sticker that we will supply with each battery in the promotion somewhere clearly visible on your bike. These lithium batteries are less than 1/4 of the weight of the battery they replace and approximately half the size. These are the same Dutch built lithium batteries used by some of the top GP teams and they include a cell balancing BMS and an internal replaceable safety fuse (in case you ever short your battery).

[FastBikeGear]

Just in time to compliment our massive Ultrabatt discount promotion next month we have just added a new $50 Lithium battery charger to our product range. It is suitable for use on all brands of second and third generation Lithium batteries (that have inbuilt BMS circuits, it is not suitable for legacy first generation lithium batteries that do not have an inbuilt BMS circuit.)

One of the clever cost savings features of modern lithium batteries like the Ultrabatt lithium batteries is that because they have the BMS cell balancing charging circuit actually built in to the battery they can be charged with a simple and cheap Lithium battery charger....and of course having the BMS cell balancing charging circuit built into the battery also means that when it is being by your bikes charging circuit it is always getting a proper cell balancing charge that lithium batteries need to achieve a 10 year target lifespan.

You can order these new chargers on line here. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=762)



For what you need to know about lithium batteries before buying one click on this link. (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1)

[Pussy]

Any new developments or news about Ultrabatt?

[FastBikeGear]

Any new developments or news about Ultrabatt?


Almost good timing but my lips have to stay sealed fon details.....but I can say that Ultrabatt will be announcing an expanded product range in about 4 weeks time. One of the new products is a bit left field.

[Dave-]

Almost good timing but my lips have to stay sealed fon details.....but I can say that Ultrabatt will be announcing an expanded product range in about 4 weeks time. One of the new products is a bit left field.

*fingers crossed*

flux capacitor, flux capacitor, flux capacitor, flux capacitor......

[Moise]

Any new developments or news about Ultrabatt?
Like they need any encouragement?

Please don't post in the Shorai thread!

[FastBikeGear]

Any new developments or news about Ultrabatt?

Yes two.

Ultrabatt are now shipping a 6V version of the Ultrabatt modular PowerBlade battery system.

Just like the 12 Volt PowerBlades each 6 V PowerBlade has an internal user replaceable safety fuse ....
.....and an integrated Battery Management System that optimises your bikes lead acid battery charging system into one that has the ideal charging characteristics for a lithium battery including providing a balance charge to each cell in each Power Blade.

Again just like the 12 volt PowerBlades you can snap together as many 6 Volt PowerBlades as you like to make whatever capacity battery you need.

Specifications for each PowerBlade:
6V

12Ah PbEv (lead acid equivalent)
180CCA PbEv
240PCA Pulse Cranking Amps (measured extended 10 second starting cycle)

I will post on the other new product in a separate post to avoid confusion.

At this stage we are gauging interest in the market requirement for 6V motorcycle batteries before deciding how many of these we should include in our next order from Ultrabatt.

[FastBikeGear]

As well as providing a well known new Zealand amphibious vehicle manufacturer with Ultrabatt batteries we now pleased to have another well known innovative company in New Zealand (this time in aviation) using Ultrabatt batteries.

Perhaps the new motto should be "land sea and air batteries."

[BuzzardNZ]

As well as providing a well known new Zealand amphibious vehicle manufacturer with Ultrabatt batteries we now pleased to have another well known innovative company in New Zealand (this time in aviation) using Ultrabatt batteries.

Perhaps the new motto should be "land sea and air batteries."

Can you please name them?

[FastBikeGear]

Can you please name them?

Buzzard we are currently requesting permission from the two customers to list them as public reference customers. However in the meantime you are welcome to call or email me and we can tell you one on one. However as far as I know there is only one amphibious vehicle manufacturer in New Zealand and there are only a handful of companies building mission critical things that fly in the sky so a prudent guess will probably be not to far off the mark. Just don't ask us to publically confirm or deny until we have permission from the respective companies. But please feel welcome to call me to confirm your guesses on 0275 985 266.

[Mike.Gayner]

Just bought an ultrabatt for my project bike, which will be kick-start only so I could get away with a single 'blade'. Holy crap this battery is light and small.

Can't put it through its paces until I've done a lot more work to the bike unfortunately.

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