Motorbike shop punished for sluggish repair [Archive]

Drew

16th July 2013, 18:26

'his specialist Italian-made bike'

Is there not a clue there that it won't be an in one day, out the next deal ... especially if they are repairing a seized engine. But yeah ... three months is a fair chunk of time I guess.I'm thinking it can only have been an RS125. So a slug and barrel shouldn't take six weeks...

bit long alright, i wonder why the aprillia parts dept takes so long when we can get bits from europe or us
in 7 to 14 days
But it is quite common for factory bits to take a lot longer to get here for dealers. Crasherfromwayback once explained why, I remember thinking it made sense, and promptly forgot the details knowing all was right in the world.

Madness

16th July 2013, 18:27

"Specialist Italian Made Bike" my arse. For $8.5k new it has to be a scroter, surely?

Crasherfromwayback

16th July 2013, 18:30

. Crasherfromwayback once explained why, I remember thinking it made sense, and promptly forgot the details knowing all was right in the world.

As dealers we're tied in by the NZ distributor to get ALL of our genuine parts through them. If it was a used bike (so the warranty was on us anyway)...we could get one of the staff to sort the bits quicker via an over seas dealer etc to keep the customer happy. But as a brand new bike under factory warranty...if we didn't source the parts through the distributor, we'd obviously not get paid for the job. They should take Aprilia NZ to task over their shit supply service.

Drew

16th July 2013, 18:32

There ya go see?

Right with the world:clap:

fridayflash

16th July 2013, 18:33

Crasherfromwayback

16th July 2013, 18:34

aha, i see....

Yeah can suck at times because your hands are tied to a certain extent. But I can obviously see it from the poor old customers side too. They don't (and shouldn't) give a shit who's fault it is...they just (rightfully so) want their fucking bike back!

fridayflash

16th July 2013, 18:41

should the importer/distributor be expected to hold an amount of model specific spares in the country?
i know they cant prepare for every possibility, but say a two stroke 125 is gunna need a rebuild sooner or later
altho they might be good for 30,000kms for all i know

Gremlin

16th July 2013, 18:43

Who's the distributor for Aprilia?

Me thinks it's more about the supply chain... and that particular supply chain is rather well known.

As for time? 2 months off the road for my BMW, start to finish, insurance repair job of $18k, lot of parts required, assessment, parts order, fitting of parts etc.

98tls

16th July 2013, 18:45

As dealers we're tied in by the NZ distributor to get ALL of our genuine parts through them. If it was a used bike (so the warranty was on us anyway)...we could get one of the staff to sort the bits quicker via an over seas dealer etc to keep the customer happy. But as a brand new bike under factory warranty...if we didn't source the parts through the distributor, we'd obviously not get paid for the job. They should take Aprilia NZ to task over their shit supply service.

Mate this off topic but...a Suzuki dealer orders a brand new tank from Suzuki,all good until it turns up and he finds:no:hes made a bluey and ordered the wrong colour tank,he orders another the right colour bur cant return the tank to Suzuki:weird:Hes a great bloke and i felt sorry for him to be honest and never actually asked him why he couldnt send it back,its still there for sure and a brand new tank for a TL1000 is not something a dealer in a small town needs to have in stock for sure.So why cant it go back?

Crasherfromwayback

16th July 2013, 18:52

Mate this off topic but...a Suzuki dealer orders a brand new tank from Suzuki,all good until it turns up and he finds:no:hes made a bluey and ordered the wrong colour tank,he orders another the right colour bur cant return the tank to Suzuki:weird:Hes a great bloke and i felt sorry for him to be honest and never actually asked him why he couldnt send it back,its still there for sure and a brand new tank for a TL1000 is not something a dealer in a small town needs to have in stock for sure.So why cant it go back?

The distributor will take it back if returned (normally) within 7 days IF it came from their stock. If it's an air frieght item...you own it. And I must say...if they dealer has fucked up...fair enough too. Else the poor old Distributor would have millions of dollars worth of dead stock sent back to them by numpties. I was the spares and acc manager for Brisbane Yamaha years ago...and we did an insurance job and an FJ1200. We needed a full decal kit...and I asked the parts boy to TRIPLE check that we didn't have it in stock (as we had a few) before ordering it. It was $500.00 odd worth of decals some 20 years ago...so not cheap. Yamaha Aust didn't have it...so we back ordered it. Turns up 2 weeks later...soon as I saw it I knew I'd seen one like it in stock. Couldn't return it...and fair enough. I wasn't a happy camper though. $500.00 dollars worth of dead stock I could've done with shifting!

98tls

16th July 2013, 18:56

The distributor will take it back if returned (normally) within 7 days IF it came from their stock. If it's an air frieght item...you own it. And I must say...if they dealer has fucked up...fair enough too. Else the poor old Distributor would have millions of dollars worth of dead stock sent back to them by numpties. I was the spares and acc manager for Brisbane Yamaha years ago...and we did an insurance job and an FJ1200. We needed a full decal kit...and I asked the parts boy to TRIPLE check that we didn't have it in stock (as we had a few) before ordering it. It was $500.00 odd worth of decals some 20 years ago...so not cheap. Yamaha Aust didn't have it...so we back ordered it. Turns up 2 weeks later...soon as I saw it I knew I'd seen one like it in stock. Couldn't return it...and fair enough. I wasn't a happy camper though. $500.00 dollars worth of dead stock I could've done with shifting!

Fair enough,from memory the tank came direct from Japan.

Crasherfromwayback

16th July 2013, 18:59

Fair enough,from memory the tank came direct from Japan.

Yeah if you ored it through Suzuki NZ incorrectly and they haveit in stock...no issues, just send it back. But if they get it in special from Japan for you...you own it. The very reason I stopped road racing was by being unfairly burnt by KNZ whilst racing Kawasakis regarding the return of goods...but I won't bore you to tears with that one again. Cost me thousands of dollars they did.

jellywrestler

16th July 2013, 20:15

I'm thinking it can only have been an RS125. So a slug and barrel shouldn't take six weeks...

clearly you've never dealt with Italians, I used to service dishwashers including the one in the hutt valley prison, main board naffed, couldn't even order one from italy for over a month as they were on their summer holidays, not even an on call parts guy and the dishwasher was $150 k's worth, no matter that the whole prison system would no longer use that brand if they couldn't get service it still didn't seem to sway the Eyties.
fact is too they may have had a run and simply not producing any more till the next batch, and then they have to ship it etc. Has anyone told the dude on here whose bikes not going that there's no need to hurry with it's repair???

jellywrestler

16th July 2013, 20:16

The very reason I stopped road racing was I thought it was the kerb on the overhead bridge at Wanganui??

Crasherfromwayback

16th July 2013, 20:20

I thought it was the kerb on the overhead bridge at Wanganui??

lol. That certainly brought me to an abrupt stop for sure mate! But I never took RR seriously after my time at Boyles. Never did the Nats ever again. Only dabbled from time to time to piss some of the others off and have a few laffs/beers with the peeps that still raced who I liked sharing beer and stories with.

AllanB

16th July 2013, 20:55

I know where you could get a cheap NOS TL gas tank ..........

tri boy

16th July 2013, 21:10

scracha

16th July 2013, 21:56

At work, dealing with Italian compressors and parts etc, the lead time for orders/shipping/arrival is 3months.(container loads).
It sucks, but thats reality. Isn't Triumph NZ tied into prillia somehow. Theyre burglars.MHO
I'm in love with the RSV4 but the price for trumpys and prillys over here is bonkers. $17K US, 34K NZ...go figure.

I believe Beckhaus are official disti for the lot....and that's why I wouldn't touch an NEW Trumpy/Prilly/Husky/MV in NZ

cynna

17th July 2013, 04:12

took around 5 months to fix my seized triumph due to delays in getting parts ...... would not have been so bad if it was over winter but it wasnt :angry2:

nzspokes

17th July 2013, 06:28

I'm in love with the RSV4 but the price for trumpys and prillys over here is bonkers. $17K US, 34K NZ...go figure.

I believe Beckhaus are official disti for the lot....and that's why I wouldn't touch an NEW Trumpy/Prilly/Husky/MV in NZ

I had been lusting after a Tuono, but not if parts are that bad to get.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 08:24

How long it too long for a bike repair?

Motorbike shop punished for sluggish repair:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10898888 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10898888)

A motorbike shop in Auckland has been told to refund a customer for the full cost of his specialist Italian-made bike after it took three months to complete a repair...

great find, thanks for that. I have downloaded a copy of the MVDT decision for research purposes.

unstuck

17th July 2013, 08:42

Suckers, should all just buy Hondas and you wouldn't need to worry about anything breaking down, and we could all live Gheyly and happily ever after, with flowers in our helmets.:bleh:

windboy

17th July 2013, 08:52

The sort of thing that puts you off....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10898888

White trash

17th July 2013, 09:01

The sort of thing that puts you off....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10898888

Sure is. I'd never buy an Italian motorcycle after reading that piece.

White trash

17th July 2013, 09:10

breakaway

17th July 2013, 09:29

The fact that the dealer is getting all the bad press in this instance is quite simply shithouse.

They are in the best position to go back to the supplier and tell them that their underhanded tactics are damaging their brands reputation and putting off potential buyers.

Crasherfromwayback

17th July 2013, 09:41

They are in the best position to go back to the supplier and tell them that their underhanded tactics are damaging their brands reputation and putting off potential buyers.

It's one of the many reasons we stopped doing Triumph years ago.

White trash

17th July 2013, 09:42

AllanB

17th July 2013, 09:55

Katman

17th July 2013, 10:27

The fact that the dealer is getting all the bad press in this instance is quite simply shithouse.

And for every story like this one there's probably 10 stories about customers who expect to be allowed to pay off a $2000 bill at $20 a week.

White trash

17th July 2013, 10:44

So we have one of the most popular brands of m-bike (Triumph) and one of the desirable Italian brands being let down in aftersales servicing by the NZ importer?

Heads should roll!

I do feel for the bike shops - as noted above WTF can they do? Changing brands won't help them if they have a product that is popular, they will only reduce their sales. Farking importers need to wake up.

Yeah but in fairness, it's not ALL the local importer either. The fact is, Italian manufacturers do things when they're good and god damned ready and by Christ you better not rush them if you ever want your parts.

I spent a good few years handling the freight forwarding requirements of various big Oil & Gas companies. On occasion, there are parts or systems that need to moved from Italy. As soon as the purchase order came through, if I saw an Italian address I started shitting bricks. It meant dealing with not only an Italian supplier but also and Italian forwarder at point of origin and you just KNOW shit aint gonna get done any time soon.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 11:19

The issue here is that any franchise dealership is bound by their contract with the distributor of whatever line they're selling. It's the manufacturer that's covering the warranty on any new product and it's the manufacturer causing delays with replacement parts. Aprilia parts are well documented to be abysmal in terms of supply and backup within New Zealand, ask Hitcher how long he waited for warranty parts for his Shiver.

The fact that the dealer is getting all the bad press in this instance is quite simply shithouse.

No, it isn't. The only point of contact the punter has, and his contract (particularly in this MVDT arena) is with the dealer from whom he purchased the vehicle. If I am the punter, I bought the bike from YOU, I expect YOU to fix it. Your shitty service you get from YOUR suppliers is simply not my problem. I care not (and neither do the Courts) about your problems, you sold it, you fix it.

Is there an argument that the multiple layers of manufacturer-distributor-retailer-customer model is rooted in the 19th century, not the 21st, and that even if it was ever relevant it is relevant no longer? sure there is. But in this arena it does not matter.

It always amuses me when I see threads like this and peoplbe going "Waaaa" importer waaaaa. I can get vintage Honda parts (pretty much anything you can think of) from David Silver Spares in the UK within a week if I really have to.

Cheaper, friendlier and online.... the service is twenty times better than any Honda franchise dealer I have ever been to in NZ, except Ashburton Honda who arent even a roadbike dealer.. maybe thats the trick.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 11:20

And for every story like this one there's probably 10 stories about customers who expect to be allowed to pay off a $2000 bill at $20 a week.

a canny business man would say, absolutely, and take security, would draft an appropriate credit contract, and would make that $2000 liability into a $3600 asset. Everybody's happy.

Katman

17th July 2013, 11:24

a canny business man would say, absolutely, and take security, would draft an appropriate credit contract, and would make that $2000 liability into a $3600 asset. Everybody's happy.

That's why you're a lawyer and I'm a mechanic.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 11:31

That's why you're a lawyer and I'm a mechanic.

you could possibly build it into your terms of trade: a heading along the lines of Credit terms, make it really unfriendly, allow you to front end load a crapload of costs to it and a credit card style interest rate. You could end up owning a bunch of bikes and being able to on-sell them. The trick would be not being second charge on a bike on drip, and repossessing the thing if they default. But you could also make it cover "All present and after acquired personal property" so you can take all the rest of their shit as well when the bailiffs show up.

Hitcher

17th July 2013, 13:04

Only three months? Luxury!

This is an example of Aprilia New Zealand (Triumph NZ) at its almost finest. I had to wait over 9 months for an $80 part to arrive for my Shiver. And the job was only ever completed because I let them know that if my bike was unwarrantable (which it would have been in the absence of the part in question), then they were going to repay me in full. They tried to divert me back to the dealer who sold me the bike, but I had read the law and advised them that it was their problem to fix. Things moved a bit more quickly from that point, although they still did their utmost to fuck me around. There is still a warranty claim outstanding on that Shiver which Aprilia/Triumph New Zealand never resolved.

Based on that experience, when I needed parts outside of the warranty provisions, I dealt directly with AF1 in Texas. What a joy those guys are. Parts delivered to specification within 5 working days. I presume that Aprilia dealers in New Zealand are not allowed to enter into such arrangements.

Would I own another Aprilia? I am seriously lusting after the new Caponord. However any purchase of a new machine would be on the basis that the dealer contracted out of the two-year "manufacturer's warranty" for a discount of at least $2,500. The way Aprilias are marketed in New Zealand, that warranty is worthless, because the distributor will sit you out if you make a claim.

Paul in NZ

17th July 2013, 13:08

WTF is the world coming to....

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 13:21

.... However any purchase of a new machine would be on the basis that the dealer contracted out of the two-year "manufacturer's warranty" for a discount of at least $2,500. The way Aprilias are marketed in New Zealand, that warranty is worthless, because the distributor will sit you out if you make a claim.

I havent researched it but I am not sure that they can: if you are a "Consumer" then they can't contract out: certainly that is the case under the fair trading act because it prevents the fine print in the contract including an all purpose contracting out provision.

edit: to clarify: you are referring to the Consumer Guarantees Act , whereas the OP has listed a case resolved under the Motor Vehicle Disputes Tribunal. Both (along with the Fair Trading Act) are very powerful and fairly user friendly pieces of consumer protection legislation. The MVDT costs bugger all for an applicant so thats why they probably used that track, vs Court proceedings for the other. Having said that it is in the Disputes Tribunal arena too: they go up to $15k now I believe. /edit

Not that I am giving any excuses but part of the problem is that we are a wee boat containing 4.5M people, sailing off the edge of the world: no one in Italy or Hinckley or the US or Japan gives two shits about this market. 82 bikes a year? they're hardly making money out of that are they?

pritch

17th July 2013, 14:41

Drew

17th July 2013, 14:45

I did hear that the same importer may be adding BMW to his stable. There was concern about that importer being able to offer a sufficiently rapid level of service. (His reputation preceded him?) Apparently he assured BMW that the new agency would be different. Yeah right!

Hopefully, for those of you riding Deutchland's finest, this did not come to fruition.Oh, well that'll see those out of our Nationals superbike grid.

Wouldn't be worth the potential fuck around for a racer.

Crasherfromwayback

17th July 2013, 14:47

I did hear that the same importer may be adding BMW to his stable. There was concern about that importer being able to offer a sufficiently rapid level of service. (His reputation preceded him?) Apparently he assured BMW that the new agency would be different. Yeah right!

Hopefully, for those of you riding Deutchland's finest, this did not come to fruition.

It's a done deal mate. They're already doing it now.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 15:09

VeBYqL8nuSw

relevant........

scott411

17th July 2013, 15:32

I havent researched it but I am not sure that they can: if you are a "Consumer" then they can't contract out: certainly that is the case under the fair trading act because it prevents the fine print in the contract including an all purpose contracting out provision.

edit: to clarify: you are referring to the Consumer Guarantees Act , whereas the OP has listed a case resolved under the Motor Vehicle Disputes Tribunal. Both (along with the Fair Trading Act) are very powerful and fairly user friendly pieces of consumer protection legislation. The MVDT costs bugger all for an applicant so thats why they probably used that track, vs Court proceedings for the other. Having said that it is in the Disputes Tribunal arena too: they go up to $15k now I believe. /edit

Not that I am giving any excuses but part of the problem is that we are a wee boat containing 4.5M people, sailing off the edge of the world: no one in Italy or Hinckley or the US or Japan gives two shits about this market. 82 bikes a year? they're hardly making money out of that are they?

you are correct, you can not contract out of the law,

Edbear

17th July 2013, 15:44

you are correct, you can not contract out of the law,

Was he perhaps meaning the Manufacturer's Warranty, in order to be able to source parts from other sources?

Gremlin

17th July 2013, 16:03

I did hear that the same importer may be adding BMW to his stable. There was concern about that importer being able to offer a sufficiently rapid level of service. (His reputation preceded him?) Apparently he assured BMW that the new agency would be different. Yeah right!
I mentioned these concerns to my dealer (I've uh... extensively... tested their parts delivery) and I was told it's partial, with them handling bikes, but parts still coming from the fatherland...

I will not be impressed or put up with that importers shit, when I know how it is (was)...

scott411

17th July 2013, 16:28

Was he perhaps meaning the Manufacturer's Warranty, in order to be able to source parts from other sources?

it does not really change the issue, the manufactures warranty is just part of the back up a dealer provides by law, the CGA states that things must last as long as a reasonable person paying the price must last, most MX bikes do not come with any manufactures warranty, but they are still covered by the CGA and must be fit for purpose, and have to be backed up by the dealer, the CGA also mentions the distributor or agent, so they are not totally out of the picture either,

the dealer can not contract out of the CGA, so any deal you come to about not honoring the warranty is not worth the paper it is written on for the dealer, because the motor vehicle disputes tribunal will ignore it,

the dealers source the parts though the distributor because that is who pays for them on warranty jobs,

Edbear

17th July 2013, 16:33

it does not really change the issue, the manufactures warranty is just part of the back up a dealer provides by law, the CGA states that things must last as long as a reasonable person paying the price must last, most MX bikes do not come with any manufactures warranty, but they are still covered by the CGA and must be fit for purpose, and have to be backed up by the dealer, the CGA also mentions the distributor or agent, so they are not totally out of the picture either,

the dealer can not contract out of the CGA, so any deal you come to about not honoring the warranty is not worth the paper it is written on for the dealer, because the motor vehicle disputes tribunal will ignore it,

the dealers source the parts though the distributor because that is who pays for them on warranty jobs,

Certainly true. I was thinking that if the dealer was unable to go elswhere for parts in order to get them in a reasonable timeframe, opting out of the manufacturers warranty would allow them to honour the bike's warranty in a better way. Not sure of that would be okay for other bits and pieces though.

cheshirecat

17th July 2013, 17:02

lol. That certainly brought me to an abrupt stop for sure mate! But I never took RR seriously after my time at Boyles. Never did the Nats ever again. Only dabbled from time to time to piss some of the others off and have a few laffs/beers with the peeps that still raced who I liked sharing beer and stories with.
Boyles - is that where you learnt how to make coffee.

Crasherfromwayback

17th July 2013, 17:19

Boyles - is that where you learnt how to make coffee.

Nope. I did my coffee making PHD at the IHC.

Hitcher

17th July 2013, 17:27

By "contracting out" I'm really endeavouring to draw the retailer's attention to the fact that the warranty they are promoting is worthless. A two-year, unlimited km warranty may sound nice, but in Aprilia's case, that's where it ends. Seriously. The distributor has no intention whatsoever in honouring it, and that should be a point worth making.

It's a pity that there is no way of communicating directly with Aprilia on these matters.

Hitcher

17th July 2013, 17:29

you are correct, you can not contract out of the law,

Indeed. But if a manufacturer's warranty was worth more than the paper on which it was printed, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

cynna

17th July 2013, 18:40

It's a pity that there is no way of communicating directly with Aprilia on these matters.

virtually impossible to talk to anyone at triumph as well. sometimes you need to talk to someone above the dealer to get answers - im my case i had no problem with the dealer just triumph

AllanB

17th July 2013, 19:17

Erelyes

17th July 2013, 19:38

The fact that the dealer is getting all the bad press in this instance is quite simply shithouse.

Not really.

If the dealer has got themselves into a position whereby they are forced to use factory parts from the factory, and there is no service level agreement for getting said parts (nor penalties for breaking that agreement); then they have contracted themselves between a rock and a hard place. Making this the customer's problem is not only bad business but it's unfair. They are dumb for getting in that situation in the first place, especially with Italians.

If Aprilia Italia won't allow NZ dealers to source parts elsewhere, even though we're, what, 82 sales out of however many - then just set up as a non-official dealer. Clearly the advantage to being official is fuckall anyway, and I doubt many sales would be lost due to being unofficial. In fact I'd say more damage is being done through the shitty wait times, than any damage being 'unofficial'...

Would I own another Aprilia? I am seriously lusting after the new Caponord. However any purchase of a new machine would be on the basis that the dealer contracted out of the two-year "manufacturer's warranty" for a discount of at least $2,500. The way Aprilias are marketed in New Zealand, that warranty is worthless, because the distributor will sit you out if you make a claim.

I'd argue that in 90% of cases warranties are worthless for the consumer anyway. In theory they are 'icing' on top of the CGA cake. In most cases they are just an excuse for the vendor to argue they 'don't have to fix it'. Sometimes warranties are realistic (say, 5yr/50thou km for a vehicle) - but a 1 year warranty on a washing machine? Yeah, cos I expect to buy one of those every year....

rocketman1

17th July 2013, 20:26

I was considering an 750 Aprilia as my next bike.
Bit worried now.
He sure go a bum deal there.

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 20:27

Certainly true. I was thinking that if the dealer was unable to go elswhere for parts in order to get them in a reasonable timeframe, opting out of the manufacturers warranty would allow them to honour the bike's warranty in a better way. Not sure of that would be okay for other bits and pieces though.

business to business it doesnt apply (they arent consumers) and so it is straight up contract law. And the contracts say "You must source parts from us" on the one hand and "We contractually have to do fucking nothing for you, but you have to suck it up, princess"

HenryDorsetCase

17th July 2013, 20:29

mashman

17th July 2013, 20:49

This is where a "donor" bike would come in handy... should probably be law. Some lovely chaps in the Hutt once, nay twice, sorted the Prila out with bits off of one of their shop bikes (parts technically still from manufacturer) whilst ordering the replacement parts from Italy. I guess an engine is a PITA, but still, it woulda got the guy back on the road and woulda caused less hassle.

Hitcher

17th July 2013, 20:58

This is where a "donor" bike would come in handy...

Not necessary. Dealers can source a full range of OEM Aprilia parts from AF1 in Texas, just the same as I can. If the largest Aprilia dealer in the USA can get parts, then NZ dealers should be able to source from them. Delivery by UPS within a week. What's wrong with that picture?

mashman

17th July 2013, 21:24

Not necessary. Dealers can source a full range of OEM Aprilia parts from AF1 in Texas, just the same as I can. If the largest Aprilia dealer in the USA can get parts, then NZ dealers should be able to source from them. Delivery by UPS within a week. What's wrong with that picture?

Absolutely agree... I stopped ordering through NZ and went straight to AF1 (as you say the warranty was all but useless) and, bar the customs nonsense, it was door to door in about a week. I guess the distributor needs to get his coin coz the difference between OEM and original parts prices is :eek5:

Wolf_

17th July 2013, 22:17

Absolutely agree... I stopped ordering through NZ and went straight to AF1 (as you say the warranty was all but useless) and, bar the customs nonsense, it was door to door in about a week. I guess the distributor needs to get his coin coz the difference between OEM and original parts prices is :eek5:

I think you guys are missing the point. The whole reason their contracts state stores have to go back to the importer is so they can clip the ticket on every product sold. Getting the product from the USA or otherwise would be parallel importing and would mean the NZ importer would have lower yearly sales etc.

From an importers point of view, why would you want to hold $xxxx.xx in stock for something that may never be bought or could become obsolete? We've just come out of a economic recession so im sure many business would be using a minimal stock strategy. Also need to consider freighting costs. Most likely cheaper if they can bundle the parts with their main shipment which probably would come by boat.

I'm not defending the Aprilia importer and personally would be seriously pissed off being without my bike for three weeks let alone 3 months.

Robert Taylor

17th July 2013, 22:27

Oh, well that'll see those out of our Nationals superbike grid.

Wouldn't be worth the potential fuck around for a racer.

What makes you think any of the BMW Superbike riders ( including Choppa ) get distributor help? Its all pretty much independent

Robert Taylor

17th July 2013, 22:30

hayd3n

17th July 2013, 22:39

+ italian mail is sooooo slow

Drew

18th July 2013, 05:50

What makes you think any of the BMW Superbike riders ( including Choppa ) get distributor help? Its all pretty much independentGood point. I hadn't considered that.

Robert Taylor

18th July 2013, 08:00

If the customer ordered genuine makers parts ex overseas (as I have done with Honda parts) and they come in a genuine 'makers' bag with logo, part number etc printed on it, and the dealer fits them to the bike under warranty, then I fail to see how a warranty could be dishonoured in any manner legally.

Maybe if the previously mentioned dealers started doing this then the importers would get their shit sorted.

Theres a paper trail involved but essentially the warranty parts provided from the distributor are at the distributors landed cost and they will have an agreement in place with the manufacturer to claim reimbursement or will have a set limit per annum. Certainly a distributor / manufacturer is not going to reimburse at a higher cost where the parts have been sourced from another supplier who has made a margin on the parts. And with a freight premium where the costs havent been consolidated with other goods.

There may also be supercessions on the parts and complications in that sense. Im not in any way attempting to justify the long lead times but while all and sundry are having a feeding frenzy on this bear in mind that there is often much much more to this.

Bear in mind that both dealers and distributors do not make money on warranty, they make a loss. Often substanial. So certainly they dont want to incur further losses.

Many years ago I had rectifier / regulator failure on a new XS750. I think that took about 6 weeks at the time because Yamaha were getting a new and improved design of unit made, that takes time. My life didnt depend on it and the sky certainly wasnt going to fall in, so I accepted it.

Edbear

18th July 2013, 08:23

Theres a paper trail involved but essentially the warranty parts provided from the distributor are at the distributors landed cost and they will have an agreement in place with the manufacturer to claim reimbursement or will have a set limit per annum. Certainly a distributor / manufacturer is not going to reimburse at a higher cost where the parts have been sourced from another supplier who has made a margin on the parts. And with a freight premium where the costs havent been consolidated with other goods.

There may also be supercessions on the parts and complications in that sense. Im not in any way attempting to justify the long lead times but while all and sundry are having a feeding frenzy on this bear in mind that there is often much much more to this.

Bear in mind that both dealers and distributors do not make money on warranty, they make a loss. Often substanial. So certainly they dont want to incur further losses.

Many years ago I had rectifier / regulator failure on a new XS750. I think that took about 6 weeks at the time because Yamaha were getting a new and improved design of unit made, that takes time. My life didnt depend on it and the sky certainly wasnt going to fall in, so I accepted it.

I had one of those, the Special model. Lovely bike!

HenryDorsetCase

18th July 2013, 08:26

Same old same old with the feeding frenzy. The dealer is in many ways the biggest victim here.

If anyone thinks they can change the attitude of the Italian nation good luck.

Any one of you guys had the opportunity to pick up ( for example )the BMW distribution recently and show all of us in the trade how its done

I know how to make a small fortune in the "Boys toys" industries (expensive pushbikes, motorbikes, audiophile etc). Its absolutely foolproof. First, start with a large fortune then, let nature take its course....

scracha

18th July 2013, 08:53

Same old same old with the feeding frenzy. The dealer is in many ways the biggest victim here.

If anyone thinks they can change the attitude of the Italian nation good luck.

It's not really about the Italian manufacturer. They do a shitty job with MV Augusta and Triumph. A disti's job is to maintain a reasonable supply chain....perhaps by partnering up with other disti's or obtaining parts from other unofficial sources. Clearly Beckarse can't manage that.

"Not the local bike dealers fault?" - No different from any other industry. As a dealer in another industry, there are many brands I won't sell due to shitty disti/manufacturer aftercare and/or product build quality. A motorcycle dealer has to pick and choose what disti's they partner up with and what brands/models they sell. If the disti/manufacturer partnership is shit, then the local bike shop has to take some responsibility for not doing their homework and selling that brand. If after a few weeks (not 3 bloody months) the disi isn't coming to the party then the local bike shop has to deploy some customer care and either take the hit (refund or offer another bike) or parallel import the parts and face the consequences if the disti finds out. I know for a fact that some of the dealers selling Japanese bikes obtain parallel parts .....I dunno if the official disti turns a blind eye or if these activities happen but it's generally for the reason of parts availabiliity, not price.

I've said it before, I'm amazed local bike shops aren't simply parallel importing these beckarse brands....there's clearly a better margin in it for them and no compelling reason to use to official supply.

Robert Taylor

18th July 2013, 08:59

It's not really about the Italian manufacturer. They do a shitty job with MV Augusta and Triumph. A disti's job is to maintain a reasonable supply chain....perhaps by partnering up with other disti's or obtaining parts from other unofficial sources. Clearly Beckarse can't manage that.

"Not the local bike dealers fault?" - No different from any other industry. As a dealer in another industry, there are many brands I won't sell due to shitty disti/manufacturer aftercare and/or product build quality. A motorcycle dealer has to pick and choose what disti's they partner up with and what brands/models they sell. If the disti/manufacturer partnership is shit, then the local bike shop has to take some responsibility for not doing their homework and selling that brand. If after a few weeks (not 3 bloody months) the disi isn't coming to the party then the local bike shop has to deploy some customer care and either take the hit (refund or offer another bike) or parallel import the parts and face the consequences if the disti finds out.

I've said it before, I'm amazed local bike shops aren't simply parallel importing these beckarse brands....there's clearly a better margin in it for them and no compelling reason to use to official supply.

I respectfully suggest then that you test run your cures to these ills. Im not justifying for a moment the long lead times and as an importer myself I often share such similiar frustrations. But I also steadfastly maintain that the dealer is the biggest victim, they incur the loss and the biggest frustration.
Also was the bike essential transport or was it discretionary transport?

mashman

18th July 2013, 11:12

I think you guys are missing the point. The whole reason their contracts state stores have to go back to the importer is so they can clip the ticket on every product sold. Getting the product from the USA or otherwise would be parallel importing and would mean the NZ importer would have lower yearly sales etc.

From an importers point of view, why would you want to hold $xxxx.xx in stock for something that may never be bought or could become obsolete? We've just come out of a economic recession so im sure many business would be using a minimal stock strategy. Also need to consider freighting costs. Most likely cheaper if they can bundle the parts with their main shipment which probably would come by boat.

I'm not defending the Aprilia importer and personally would be seriously pissed off being without my bike for three weeks let alone 3 months.

For sure there's an entire industro-system that needs to be fed and it's amusing to see these people cut off their noses to spite their faces by tying themselves up in red tape to protect their position. Tis shit and silly for all concerned.

True... that's why I suggested the idea behind the donor bike as buying a little bit of time and keeping all happy.

It's no fun waiting for bits n pieces... fortunately mine have only ever been cosmetic or replacement parts, touch wood (ooooo).

Robert Taylor

18th July 2013, 13:34

For sure there's an entire industro-system that needs to be fed and it's amusing to see these people cut off their noses to spite their faces by tying themselves up in red tape to protect their position. Tis shit and silly for all concerned.

True... that's why I suggested the idea behind the donor bike as buying a little bit of time and keeping all happy.

It's no fun waiting for bits n pieces... fortunately mine have only ever been cosmetic or replacement parts, touch wood (ooooo).

Equally, its no fun for the dealer at the coalface or the distributor.

Red tape is not something that I practice as a distributor, except where neccessary for protecting some from their own stupidity or ignorance. Especially where safety is at stake.

Gianz

18th July 2013, 20:08

+ italian mail is sooooo slow

so we went from a shitty costumer service from a kiwi dealer/importer to blame the italian post...
You know what? Nz wine sucks!:nya:

nzspokes

18th July 2013, 20:35

Also was the bike essential transport or was it discretionary transport?

I dont see that as relevant. Wouldnt matter if it was a TV, toaster or flash blow up doll. He paid $8500 for something that was not fit for use and they took to long to fix it.

I do understand what you mean about the retailer being stuck in the middle. Yes that would suck. But maybe a suitable loan bike would have kept the guy happy.

Robert Taylor

18th July 2013, 21:13

I dont see that as relevant. Wouldnt matter if it was a TV, toaster or flash blow up doll. He paid $8500 for something that was not fit for use and they took to long to fix it.

I do understand what you mean about the retailer being stuck in the middle. Yes that would suck. But maybe a suitable loan bike would have kept the guy happy.

Lets say you had 10 bikes in your workshop, 5 were primary and essential transport and 5 were discretionary weekend fun bikes only. You only had the capacity in time to immediately repair 5 of those bikes before the week ended. Which ones take first priority?

Loan bikes are an interesting subject that often burn retailers. You have them for your good customers, of course. But at dealer level its also very easy to get cynical about them. When I co-owned a motorcycle shop that sold and serviced a lot of farm ATVs we had a fleet of ''loaners'' and the cost of keeping them running was not insignificant.

It would be dropped out to the farmer and we sometimes had the comment "'there wasnt much petrol in it''. If it went out full it came back empty. Bikes would also come back with burnt out clutches because ''you cannot put brains where they are not supposed to be''. Theyd go out clean and come back requiring an hours cleaning. And of course they were already moaning about the size of the bill to reicarnate their own bike.

Yes its a bundle of joy selling and servicing motorcycles.

And a word about warranty. I well remember a few years back an issue we had with a near new YZ250F. It had an intermittent stalling problem and I personally spent nearly two days on it Friday / Saturday after one of my mechanics struggled with it for 3 hours. Eventually I got to the source of the problem and successfully and reliably fixed it. The distributor was no help so I was on my own. Flat rate time reimbursement 1.5 hours at about 60% of our standard charge out rate.
But to make it worse the customer was in my ear constantly and so was a vociferous mate of his who overlooked that I worked over half of my weekend even though I supposedly also had a life and a family. The customer missed a MotoX meeting whilst I bloodymindedly kept working with this intermittent problem. You would have thought that he needed the bike as the only means of getting to a close relative to save their life

Yes it is abundle of joy selling and servicing motorcycles

AllanB

18th July 2013, 21:31

A donor bike is only workable if the offending part is a one off. If it is a part that fails on more than one bike then only the first failure in is sorted - the others have to wait ......and wait ...... and .........

nzspokes

18th July 2013, 21:31

Lets say you had 10 bikes in your workshop, 5 were primary and essential transport and 5 were discretionary weekend fun bikes only. You only had the capacity in time to immediately repair 5 of those bikes before the week ended. Which ones take first priority?

Loan bikes are an interesting subject that often burn retailers. You have them for your good customers, of course. But at dealer level its also very easy to get cynical about them. When I co-owned a motorcycle shop that sold and serviced a lot of farm ATVs we had a fleet of ''loaners'' and the cost of keeping them running was not insignificant.

It would be dropped out to the farmer and we sometimes had the comment "'there wasnt much petrol in it''. If it went out full it came back empty. Bikes would also come back with burnt out clutches because ''you cannot put brains where they are not supposed to be''. Theyd go out clean and come back requiring an hours cleaning. And of course they were already moaning about the size of the bill to reicarnate their own bike.

Yes its a bundle of joy selling and servicing motorcycles.

And a word about warranty. I well remember a few years back an issue we had with a near new YZ250F. It had an intermittent stalling problem and I personally spent nearly two days on it Friday / Saturday after one of my mechanics struggled with it for 3 hours. Eventually I got to the source of the problem and successfully and reliably fixed it. The distributor was no help so I was on my own. Flat rate time reimbursement 1.5 hours at about 60% of our standard charge out rate.
But to make it worse the customer was in my ear constantly and so was a vociferous mate of his who overlooked that I worked over half of my weekend even though I supposedly also had a life and a family. The customer missed a MotoX meeting whilst I bloodymindedly kept working with this intermittent problem. You would have thought that he needed the bike as the only means of getting to a close relative to save their life

Yes it is abundle of joy selling and servicing motorcycles

Well this situation was not they didnt have time to fix it, they didnt have the parts.

For loan bikes, yes I can see the problem but when a customer is without his bike for months sometimes you need to bit the bullet. Warranty in any trade will be full of challenges. Imagine what the warranty guy for the company that brings in blow up dolls goes through. Always somebody worse off than you.

Robert Taylor

18th July 2013, 21:44

Well this situation was not they didnt have time to fix it, they didnt have the parts.

For loan bikes, yes I can see the problem but when a customer is without his bike for months sometimes you need to bit the bullet. Warranty in any trade will be full of challenges. Imagine what the warranty guy for the company that brings in blow up dolls goes through. Always somebody worse off than you.

They didnt have the parts because the distributor didnt have the parts and so on. That the dealer got busted for it is WRONG. If I was the customer Id have that on my conscience. But I have seen this before, the customer feels aggrieved ( and often very justifiably ) but doesnt care exactly where the ''compensation'' comes from, as long as it comes. Thats immoral

We had a situation a few years back where a rear tyre we sold wore out extremely quickly. It was a name brand of tyre totally correct for the bike, we were given the wheel only and hadnt sighted the bike. The customer came in a few weeks later bitching and screaming and I said ''please bring in the bike so we can see what is going on". He had a cheap set of aftermarket shocks on it that were somewhat shorter than original and were also flogged out. He rode constantly two up and lets just say that he was ''well fed''. He carried his dragon on the back constantly as well. so I asked for them both to sit on it and it statically was using 60% of the travel, it was easy to adjudge that it was constantly hitting the bump stops all the time. When that happens the tyre is constantly overstressed.
I articulated all of that to them but they didnt want to know, in their ignorance. They threatened to tell all and sundry and in a small rural town that hurts. They got what they wanted, a replacement tyre foc. But their card is marked and when I meet them ''on the other side'' I will remember............

Katman

18th July 2013, 21:50

Imagine what the warranty guy for the company that brings in blow up dolls goes through.

Sent a few back, have you?

Erelyes

18th July 2013, 22:10

Sent a few back, have you?

'She's too loose'
'Er, none of or other customers have a problem, sir...'

scracha

19th July 2013, 06:30

I respectfully suggest then that you test run your cures to these ills. Im not justifying for a

Respectfully, I'd stress that I do run similar cures to similar ills in my own industry. I have no interest in getting involved in the motorcycle industry for some of the reasons previously stated.

moment the long lead times and as an importer myself I often share such similiar frustrations. But I also steadfastly maintain that the dealer is the biggest victim, they incur the loss and the biggest frustration.

It's just business Robert. If a particular business partnership or even industry gets too difficult, you make changes or get out of it completely.

Also was the bike essential transport or was it discretionary transport?
In this case it matters not. You're confusing non-warranty work (that can be charged at a higher rate if it's urgent) with warranty repairs. If a customer demands my urgent attention, I'll attempt to ascertain how urgent their needs really are (as opposed to "me me me" that I frequently encounter) and if I'm busy advise them that "bumping" them up the queue (or working non sociable hours) will cause delays to my other customers and therefore I'll be charging them more (at that point it's amazing how many "urgent" repairs become "not that important").

Warranty repairs on that other hand are a different matter. Essentially they're a product with a previously agreed service level already bought and paid for. I can't tell a customer their laptop warranty will take longer to process because they only play solitaire on it instead of doing "real" business now can I? If the parts/repair centre in NZ is shit then I get on the blower to the manufactures NZ representative. If they're shit, I normally then phone/email/fax/harass Australia, USA, Korea, etc etc (I really don't give a fuck who I upset if it gets to this stage). If I still get no joy I supply the customer (who incidentally has almost certainly been supplied a loaner at my expense) an alternative product or refund. If the experience I have with that particular disti/manufacturer continues to be shit then I no longer sell their product (can you hear me HP, Brother and Samsung???) or I bypass the official disti(s) and parallel import myself. End of. It's my reputation and what my customers expect. I have to factor this in when I price stuff up and that's why I'm not competing with chain stores in this Western race to the bottom. I can't just fob a customer off and blame the manufacturer. It is MY problem and MY fault for doing business selling that particular (shitty) brand.

In summary, if a dealer chooses to sell shit, they get what they deserve.

nzspokes

19th July 2013, 06:35

Thats immoral

No its not. Simple really. Consumer bought a product from a retailer that was not fit for the job and it failed. Consumer is forced to wait 3 months to have it repaired. Consumer gets upset and takes it to the authorities. Retailer who happily took the consumers money is forced to refund.

What is immoral is the consumer was left with have to go through this.

nzspokes

19th July 2013, 06:37

Respectfully, I'd stress that I do run similar cures to similar ills in my own industry. I have no interest in getting involved in the motorcycle industry for some of the reasons previously stated.

It's just business Robert. If a particular business partnership or even industry gets too difficult, you make changes or get out of it completely.

In this case it matters not. You're confusing non-warranty work (that can be charged at a higher rate if it's urgent) with warranty repairs. If a customer demands my urgent attention, I'll attempt to ascertain how urgent their needs really are (as opposed to "me me me" that I frequently encounter) and if I'm busy advise them that "bumping" them up the queue (or working non sociable hours) will cause delays to my other customers and therefore I'll be charging them more (at that point it's amazing how many "urgent" repairs become "not that important").

Warranty repairs on that other hand are a different matter. Essentially they're a product with a previously agreed service level already bought and paid for. I can't tell a customer their laptop warranty will take longer to process because they only play solitaire on it instead of doing "real" business now can I? If the parts/repair centre in NZ is shit then I get on the blower to the manufactures NZ representative. If they're shit, I normally then phone/email/fax/harass Australia, USA, Korea, etc etc (I really don't give a fuck who I upset if it gets to this stage). If I still get no joy I supply the customer (who incidentally has almost certainly been supplied a loaner at my expense) an alternative product or refund. If the experience I have with that particular manufacturer continues to be shit then I no longer sell their product (can you hear me HP, Brother and Samsung???). End of. It's my reputation and what my customers expect. I have to factor this in when I price stuff up and that's why I'm not competing with chain stores in this Western race to the bottom. I can't just fob a customer off and blame the manufacturer. It is MY problem and MY fault for doing business selling that particular (shitty) brand.

In summary, if a dealer chooses to sell shit, they get what they deserve.

Well said.

Woodman

19th July 2013, 07:10

From time to time I have to procure parts from overseas for customers vehicles and generally their is an option on freight charges and times to your door. The quicker to your door the more you have to pay.

My theory with this Apriila case is that they (distributor or workshop) took the cheap (long) option to save themselves some coin because it was a warranty job and they couldn't pass the freight charges onto the customer, and it has bit them on the ass big time.

TimeOut

19th July 2013, 07:44

Respectfully, I'd stress that I do run similar cures to similar ills in my own industry. I have no interest in getting involved in the motorcycle industry for some of the reasons previously stated.

It's just business Robert. If a particular business partnership or even industry gets too difficult, you make changes or get out of it completely.

In this case it matters not. You're confusing non-warranty work (that can be charged at a higher rate if it's urgent) with warranty repairs. If a customer demands my urgent attention, I'll attempt to ascertain how urgent their needs really are (as opposed to "me me me" that I frequently encounter) and if I'm busy advise them that "bumping" them up the queue (or working non sociable hours) will cause delays to my other customers and therefore I'll be charging them more (at that point it's amazing how many "urgent" repairs become "not that important").

Warranty repairs on that other hand are a different matter. Essentially they're a product with a previously agreed service level already bought and paid for. I can't tell a customer their laptop warranty will take longer to process because they only play solitaire on it instead of doing "real" business now can I? If the parts/repair centre in NZ is shit then I get on the blower to the manufactures NZ representative. If they're shit, I normally then phone/email/fax/harass Australia, USA, Korea, etc etc (I really don't give a fuck who I upset if it gets to this stage). If I still get no joy I supply the customer (who incidentally has almost certainly been supplied a loaner at my expense) an alternative product or refund. If the experience I have with that particular disti/manufacturer continues to be shit then I no longer sell their product (can you hear me HP, Brother and Samsung???) or I bypass the official disti(s) and parallel import myself. End of. It's my reputation and what my customers expect. I have to factor this in when I price stuff up and that's why I'm not competing with chain stores in this Western race to the bottom. I can't just fob a customer off and blame the manufacturer. It is MY problem and MY fault for doing business selling that particular (shitty) brand.

In summary, if a dealer chooses to sell shit, they get what they deserve.

:niceone:Bling sent

Robert Taylor

19th July 2013, 08:13

Respectfully, I'd stress that I do run similar cures to similar ills in my own industry. I have no interest in getting involved in the motorcycle industry for some of the reasons previously stated.

It's just business Robert. If a particular business partnership or even industry gets too difficult, you make changes or get out of it completely.

In this case it matters not. You're confusing non-warranty work (that can be charged at a higher rate if it's urgent) with warranty repairs. If a customer demands my urgent attention, I'll attempt to ascertain how urgent their needs really are (as opposed to "me me me" that I frequently encounter) and if I'm busy advise them that "bumping" them up the queue (or working non sociable hours) will cause delays to my other customers and therefore I'll be charging them more (at that point it's amazing how many "urgent" repairs become "not that important").

Warranty repairs on that other hand are a different matter. Essentially they're a product with a previously agreed service level already bought and paid for. I can't tell a customer their laptop warranty will take longer to process because they only play solitaire on it instead of doing "real" business now can I? If the parts/repair centre in NZ is shit then I get on the blower to the manufactures NZ representative. If they're shit, I normally then phone/email/fax/harass Australia, USA, Korea, etc etc (I really don't give a fuck who I upset if it gets to this stage). If I still get no joy I supply the customer (who incidentally has almost certainly been supplied a loaner at my expense) an alternative product or refund. If the experience I have with that particular disti/manufacturer continues to be shit then I no longer sell their product (can you hear me HP, Brother and Samsung???) or I bypass the official disti(s) and parallel import myself. End of. It's my reputation and what my customers expect. I have to factor this in when I price stuff up and that's why I'm not competing with chain stores in this Western race to the bottom. I can't just fob a customer off and blame the manufacturer. It is MY problem and MY fault for doing business selling that particular (shitty) brand.

In summary, if a dealer chooses to sell shit, they get what they deserve.

No confusion and much of what you have said is fair. Its largely how I operate but I also think fairly that I have illustrated that its not all as black and white as we ALL would hope it to be. I just bet theres another plausible side to the story beyond what the newspaper reported

HenryDorsetCase

19th July 2013, 08:23

They didnt have the parts because the distributor didnt have the parts and so on. That the dealer got busted for it is WRONG. If I was the customer Id have that on my conscience. But I have seen this before, the customer feels aggrieved ( and often very justifiably ) but doesnt care exactly where the ''compensation'' comes from, as long as it comes. Thats immoral

Robert that is flat wrong, sorry to say. the customer has no other avenue of recourse morally OR legally except against the only other party in their relationship, that is, the dealer. They cannot (except in limited circumstances as mandated in the CGA, and Fair Trading Act, and remember that this decision was under the MVDT) approach a third party for recompense. And the distributor is a third party. The dealer is in business to make a profit*, and in this instance they decided to maximise their profit by minimising the time and cost spent on one of their legally imposed obligations. And that, completely correctly in my view, has earned them a sanction. Not to mention bad publicity which I would suggest is actually worse than the (say) $2000 this cockup has cost them.

As a theoretical example, say I bought a brand new Honda CBR1000RR from Casbolts that, it turns out is plagued with faulty reg/rec which is endemic to the model. I just can't go back to Blue Wing and say "fix it": I have to take it back to Casbolts. You can tell thats a theoretical example because I would never ever buy a new Honda from Casbolts. Last time I bought a new Honda I travelled 50 miles out of my way to buy it from another dealer.

Another example, this time of very good warranty service: I own a 2009 Triumph Street Triple R. I am a second owner of it and the warranty has well run out. I got a letter from Triumph NZ last year saying "O Hai, there is apossibility your bike has a dodgy reg/rec: take it to your local dealer and they will replace it free of charge". Cant ask for better than that. I got them to do it next time it was in for a service so they'd make some coin on the job, but like I say, I thought that was excellent service both from the dealer and from Triumph NZ.

*notionally

Robert Taylor

19th July 2013, 08:41

Robert that is flat wrong, sorry to say. the customer has no other avenue of recourse morally OR legally except against the only other party in their relationship, that is, the dealer. They cannot (except in limited circumstances as mandated in the CGA, and Fair Trading Act, and remember that this decision was under the MVDT) approach a third party for recompense. And the distributor is a third party. The dealer is in business to make a profit*, and in this instance they decided to maximise their profit by minimising the time and cost spent on one of their legally imposed obligations. And that, completely correctly in my view, has earned them a sanction. Not to mention bad publicity which I would suggest is actually worse than the (say) $2000 this cockup has cost them.

As a theoretical example, say I bought a brand new Honda CBR1000RR from Casbolts that, it turns out is plagued with faulty reg/rec which is endemic to the model. I just can't go back to Blue Wing and say "fix it": I have to take it back to Casbolts. You can tell thats a theoretical example because I would never ever buy a new Honda from Casbolts. Last time I bought a new Honda I travelled 50 miles out of my way to buy it from another dealer.

Another example, this time of very good warranty service: I own a 2009 Triumph Street Triple R. I am a second owner of it and the warranty has well run out. I got a letter from Triumph NZ last year saying "O Hai, there is apossibility your bike has a dodgy reg/rec: take it to your local dealer and they will replace it free of charge". Cant ask for better than that. I got them to do it next time it was in for a service so they'd make some coin on the job, but like I say, I thought that was excellent service both from the dealer and from Triumph NZ.

*notionally

Yes I hear what you are saying. But go back to my YZ250F example. Who is at fault there? Go back to my tyre example, who is at fault there?

No one denies that the repair on the Aprilia DID take far too long but a dangerous precedent has been set and all consumers pay for this in the end

Id stress that in my own business we act on warranty VERY quickly and even if the claim is a little ''grey'' we act on the positive side

breakaway

19th July 2013, 08:50

Katman

19th July 2013, 08:54

HenryDorsetCase

19th July 2013, 09:59

The only mistake I can see is that the shop chose to wait for the gudgeon pin. If the pin hadn't turn up in time for the bike to be ready when promised to the customer I'd have been reusing the old gudgeon pin.

And you would probably have been OK doing that. Except if it failed again and the punter realised thats what had happened in which case you have given them a pair of shoes to kick you in the arse with. "That is not the Aprilia way, its not how they mandated the job was done, its failed, its your fault": and Aprilia go "Mate, thats not how we say the job is done, you have to use all new parts, you're on your own". So you would end up paying again into infinity.

What it comes down to is that people are bastards. They'll fuck you over if they can and be all self-righteous about it while doing so and saying as they kick you in the teeth "Well, you do realise this is your fault".

Katman

19th July 2013, 10:13

And you would probably have been OK doing that. Except if it failed again and the punter realised thats what had happened in which case you have given them a pair of shoes to kick you in the arse with. "That is not the Aprilia way, its not how they mandated the job was done, its failed, its your fault": and Aprilia go "Mate, thats not how we say the job is done, you have to use all new parts, you're on your own". So you would end up paying again into infinity.

What it comes down to is that people are bastards. They'll fuck you over if they can and be all self-righteous about it while doing so and saying as they kick you in the teeth "Well, you do realise this is your fault".

Exactly, it's the old 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' story.

(And I've thought it over very carefully and I really can't imagine how a cold seizure could have damaged the gudgeon pin).

Robert Taylor

19th July 2013, 10:32

The incidents you've brought up are pretty endemic of just about any industry. Which industry out there doesn't have dickhead customers? Which industry is there where all the work you do is billable? None.

You win some, you lose some.

But if you are blind to the ways of the world, you will lose everything sooner or later.

Nothing even worth mentioning, really.

Yes they indeed are but I guess one of the points that Im trying to articulate is that its so easy everytime to 100% blame the 'big bad shop'' . There is very often more to the story

Drew

19th July 2013, 18:16

(And I've thought it over very carefully and I really can't imagine how a cold seizure could have damaged the gudgeon pin).What have I missed? Where were the specifics of what went wrong with the bike?

I figured there had been a crank issue, because a piston and barrel for an RS125, or Aprilia scooter should be in stock in the country all the time.

Robert Taylor

19th July 2013, 21:00

What have I missed? Where were the specifics of what went wrong with the bike?

I figured there had been a crank issue, because a piston and barrel for an RS125, or Aprilia scooter should be in stock in the country all the time.

Yes, but heres an example of a scenario that happens, there is a plethora of engine seizures in a short time totally and quickly exhausting a reasonable stock holding of the affected parts. ( bear in mind that no distributor has a crystal ball ) The distributor re-orders only to be advised that the key parts are on ''factory backorder''. I.e the factory doesnt have stock and is awaiting key parts from contracted vendors ( factories by no means make all parts in house )
Believe me this happens A LOT. I remember several years back a popular model of a popular brand was delayed for production by a considerable period. The factory couldnt get the cast alloy wheels for this model as there was a severre shortage of the neccessary alloy. China had purchased much of the worlds available alloy at that time.
About 3 years back we couldnt get Ohlins MX steering dampers for at least six months and people were screaming at us. The reason was there was a key part that Ohlins couldnt get anyone to make to the tight clearances and very precise tolerances they desired. So until they achieved the standard they wanted they werent on sale.
Its not always fair to blame the dealer if you are not in full command of the facts. Equally, its probably better to be totally uniformed than only partly informed.
As for our Italian friends I love travelling around that country. But when you look at a map of Italy there is little wonder that it is shaped like a boot. Thats because there is no way you'd get that amount of shit in a shoe!

mashman

19th July 2013, 22:46

Equally, its no fun for the dealer at the coalface or the distributor.

Red tape is not something that I practice as a distributor, except where neccessary for protecting some from their own stupidity or ignorance. Especially where safety is at stake.

I'm under no illusion that there's pain on many fronts... however only 1 person is without both the money and the product.

Fit for purpose is fit for purpose. Red tape doesn't really stop that does it.

A donor bike is only workable if the offending part is a one off. If it is a part that fails on more than one bike then only the first failure in is sorted - the others have to wait ......and wait ...... and .........

Just gotta hope they don't all break down at once... which with Aprilia is highly unlikely given the numbers of them being sold each year. Fuck the rest of ya'll :D

Katman

20th July 2013, 08:50

What have I missed? Where were the specifics of what went wrong with the bike?

Towards the end of the article in the original post is another link that takes you to the Tribunal's ruling.

HenryDorsetCase

20th July 2013, 09:12

Robert Taylor

20th July 2013, 09:44

I'm under no illusion that there's pain on many fronts... however only 1 person is without both the money and the product.

Fit for purpose is fit for purpose. Red tape doesn't really stop that does it.

Just gotta hope they don't all break down at once... which with Aprilia is highly unlikely given the numbers of them being sold each year. Fuck the rest of ya'll :D

No one is under any illusion that all goods should be fit for purpose. But a sensible level of ''red tape'' is not always put in place to hinder people, it is often there to protect people.
That the dealer has incurred a loss on this bike is a reality, they are also the biggest victim of events largely beyond their control. It is no small mercy that the tribunal rejected other claims submitted to them beyond a refund on the motorcycle.
Profit margins are being increasingly squeezed and if penalties for delayed repair times become draconian and commonplace then there will be less incentive to be a dealer. Thats a stark reality, whilst still having sympathy for the customers position.

mashman

20th July 2013, 10:13

speaking of Aprilia I remember a few years ago (2006?) there was major problems with a very critical part of the rear suspension: it led to a bunch of failures and I think one death in Chermany. Early RSV Milles and Tuonos maybe? Dogbones underspecified?

As someone else said I love the RSV4 (and its my size and has electronic gubbins so I dont fire myself into the scenery). Would I buy one? Not so much. Unless I could have a wee Italian man in a chase van behind me every time I rode it.

Yup. There are two guys in NZ that had linkage failure (a few more overseas), or what was attributed to linkage failure on the Gen 2 models (2004+). One alright, the other in a coma for a few weeks I believe (this he was on KB at some point too) The AF1 community got their shit together and made uprated link plates which we fitted ourselves due to Piaggio's reluctance to recognise the issue. There are other issues that they won't address, like the stator issue (due to a rotor issue) and something that being 5+ years out of warranty allows the issue to be ignored by them (even though they did change the rotor in 2007/8). Meh, bike eh.

No one is under any illusion that all goods should be fit for purpose. But a sensible level of ''red tape'' is not always put in place to hinder people, it is often there to protect people.
That the dealer has incurred a loss on this bike is a reality, they are also the biggest victim of events largely beyond their control. It is no small mercy that the tribunal rejected other claims submitted to them beyond a refund on the motorcycle.
Profit margins are being increasingly squeezed and if penalties for delayed repair times become draconian and commonplace then there will be less incentive to be a dealer. Thats a stark reality, whilst still having sympathy for the customers position.

Sure the dealer will feel some pain, but that comes with the territory surely... but I don't see them as the biggest victim at all coz dealing with unhappy customers (they're not unhappy because they broke their nail on the clutch lever are they) is a part of their job, especially when dealing with warranty/fit for purpose issues.
I was told by the guys in the shop one day that repair times and remuneration are based on a mech that's so proficient with the bike that he could likely strip it blindfolded, has every tool for the job at his disposal and it timed when performing a particular fix. So I'm aware that they get it from both ends, but they have options that the customer doesn't.

kiwi cowboy

20th July 2013, 10:22

Exactly, it's the old 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' story.

(And I've thought it over very carefully and I really can't imagine how a cold seizure could have damaged the gudgeon pin).

I haven't read where it says it was cold seized and don't know much about 2 smokes really but if it was cold seized isn't that a problem with how the bike was being warmed up or ridden more than a problem with the bike mechanically in its self.

Katman

20th July 2013, 10:30

I haven't read where it says it was cold seized and don't know much about 2 smokes really but if it was cold seized isn't that a problem with how the bike was being warmed up or ridden more than a problem with the bike mechanically in its self.

See my previous post - the details are in the Tribunal's ruling which can be found linked in the original article.

Yes, it is quite possible that the seizure occurred due to incorrect warming up and that Aprilia were possibly within their rights to deny the warranty claim.

They chose to honour the claim as a sign of good will (and probably due to the fact that no Disputes Tribunal would ever rule in their favour if they did deny the claim).

Disputes Tribunals almost always err on the side of the customer - seemingly regardless of whether it can be shown that the customer was negligent.

scumdog

20th July 2013, 10:35

Yes, it is quite possible that the seizure occurred due to incorrect warming up and that Aprilia were possibly within their rights to deny the warranty claim.

And people have the gall to slag-off Harleys for their 'unreliability'...:rolleyes:

Robert Taylor

21st July 2013, 15:44

Yup. There are two guys in NZ that had linkage failure (a few more overseas), or what was attributed to linkage failure on the Gen 2 models (2004+). One alright, the other in a coma for a few weeks I believe (this he was on KB at some point too) The AF1 community got their shit together and made uprated link plates which we fitted ourselves due to Piaggio's reluctance to recognise the issue. There are other issues that they won't address, like the stator issue (due to a rotor issue) and something that being 5+ years out of warranty allows the issue to be ignored by them (even though they did change the rotor in 2007/8). Meh, bike eh.

Sure the dealer will feel some pain, but that comes with the territory surely... but I don't see them as the biggest victim at all coz dealing with unhappy customers (they're not unhappy because they broke their nail on the clutch lever are they) is a part of their job, especially when dealing with warranty/fit for purpose issues.
I was told by the guys in the shop one day that repair times and remuneration are based on a mech that's so proficient with the bike that he could likely strip it blindfolded, has every tool for the job at his disposal and it timed when performing a particular fix. So I'm aware that they get it from both ends, but they have options that the customer doesn't.

Interesting point about options and so many are quick to blame dealers as ''the bad guys''. There are various layers of protections for customers who purchase machines off registered motor vehicle dealers. Much less protection if you purchase a bike off a private reseller and those who are in all but name and legalities a dealer operating from Trade Me. There are a heck of a lot of private sellers who are pretty dodgy, selling stuff with faults that were they a dealer they would get taken to the cleaners. And then there are also those that trade their bikes in with serious faults that are not immediately obvious. So in my view ( and experience ) the customers in fact have more options than the dealers, and many ''get away with murder''. Time this was all cleaned up I think.

MarkH

21st July 2013, 19:27

They didnt have the parts because the distributor didnt have the parts and so on. That the dealer got busted for it is WRONG.

The customer entered into a contract with the dealer and there was a failure on the dealer's end.
That the dealer got busted for it is RIGHT!

Yes they indeed are but I guess one of the points that Im trying to articulate is that its so easy everytime to 100% blame the 'big bad shop'' . There is very often more to the story

I don't think that it was the dealer's fault, but it definitely was the dealer's responsibility.
I personally think that the dealer should be compensated by the distributor and I think that the distributor should be compensated by Aprilia.
None of that is the customer's problem though - he isn't the one with a business relationship with the distributor.

Personally I would have been similarly very unhappy were I the customer that spent $8.5 thousand on a new bike that failed at less than 1 year old and then took almost 3 months to be repaired.

Mort

21st July 2013, 19:54

I have three such stories:

Accident repair on a 2007 Fireblade. Fairing panels took 11 weeks to deliver because Bluewing Honda dont stock them.
Brake parts for a Gas Gas EC300 - Took 4 months. The dealer I ordered through had no way of saying when the part would arrive. He just placed the order and we had to wait.
Arai helmet parts (side pod and vent parts) ordered from an official Arai dealer. Nine and half months !!!

All the above were official dealer channels where a customer should reasonably expect a prompt and efficient service but the dealer, the importer and the manufacturer have basically put in place the lowest possible cost delivery service regardless of the quality of service to their customers or the outrageous final cost of their parts.

They could, as has been mentioned above put in place better part supply arrangements which can deliver parts faster and cheaper but they choose not to. There is no excuse for this. For instance, last time I needed parts for my GasGas bikes, I bought from the UK. It arrived in less that 4 days. I have no sympathy for any dealers in NZ. If they are going to charge top dollar for products and parts (which they do) they should back that with proper service. But they have no interest in that end of the market it seems. Sell you a new bike - sure. Back that bike with an even a modest parts delivery service from the manufacturer ? That appears beyond any of them.

Katman

21st July 2013, 20:23

They could, as has been mentioned above put in place better part supply arrangements which can deliver parts faster and cheaper but they choose not to.

Dealers sign into a contract with the national distributors.

It is the national distributor that determines the efficiency of the parts supply.

If dealers didn't adhere to their contract they would quickly find themselves without a franchise.

Robert Taylor

21st July 2013, 20:26

Mort

21st July 2013, 20:26

the dealer, the importer and the manufacturer have basically put in place the lowest possible cost delivery service regardless of the quality of service to their customers or the outrageous final cost of their parts.

...as I said Mr K...

Katman

21st July 2013, 20:29

...as I said Mr K...

I have no sympathy for any dealers in NZ.

The dealer has no say in the efficiency of the parts supply - (beyond actually placing the order).

They are just the unlucky pricks that cop it in the neck when the parts supply doesn't meet the customer's expectations.

Mort

21st July 2013, 20:32

So you are saying ALL dealers are useless? I think more than a few would take issue with your criticism.

With respect to providing a proper parts supply (which is what this thread is about), the ones I have seen are piss poor. I understand that NZ cannot support a full parts inventory for all bikes etc but the importers could do much much better than what they do at the moment. It's no wonder people side step the dealer network and personally import what they need.

Mort

21st July 2013, 20:42

They are just the unlucky pricks that cop it in the neck.

So (using examples above), Aprilia, BMW, Honda, Arai and GasGas dealers in this country are just "unlucky" they have the importers they do ? If an individual can get official parts from elsewhere in the world in a few days at reasonable cost why can the importer not have a good arrangement from the manufacturer themselves to get parts in just as quick ? What surpises me is that the manufacturers allow piss poor parts service to affect their bikes sales. Whichever way you cut it, the dealer/importer/manufacturer chain is to blame for lack of customer support and it could be solved but they choose not to..

Ender EnZed

21st July 2013, 20:51

Is there anything to stop a dealer parallel importing new bikes themselves and offering their own non-manufacturers warranty; leaving them free to source parts online like everyone else?

Katman

21st July 2013, 20:56

Whichever way you cut it, the dealer/importer/manufacturer chain is to blame for lack of customer support and it could be solved but they choose not to..

As a totally independent workshop there are many times that I have ordered genuine parts in from overseas sources.

Franchise dealers don't have the same freedom.

st00ji

21st July 2013, 21:01

98tls

21st July 2013, 21:12

Is there anything to stop a dealer parallel importing new bikes themselves and offering their own non-manufacturers warranty; leaving them free to source parts online like everyone else?

Would imagine theres plenty of paperwork to stop them,nothing to stop someone picking a brand and setting up shop as you say.

Katman

21st July 2013, 21:22

Is there anything to stop a dealer parallel importing new bikes themselves and offering their own non-manufacturers warranty; leaving them free to source parts online like everyone else?

Where would they import them from?

Would the customer be happy if the speedo reads in miles per hour not kilometres per hour?

Would the bike be of the same spec as one that was brought in by the official importer?

Mort

21st July 2013, 21:34

Where would they import them from?

Would the customer be happy that the speedo reads in miles per hour not kilometres per hour?

Would the bike be of the same spec as one that was brought in by the official importer?

It happened in the UK. One dealer in particular (DK Motorcycles) parallel imported bikes and sold shit loads (I bought 4) because they under cut the official dealers and matched their warranty. It had a big impact on bike prices nationwide. All the bikes they sold were full spec and parts supply was good. Honda UK eventually found a way to stop them (dont know the details).

Robert Taylor

21st July 2013, 21:36

if they are an official dealer and their distributor finds out, then they will lose their official status.

possibly secondhand stuff, would depend on the agreement.

carrying your own warranty costs is probably pretty prohibitive - the volumes involved mean a couple of expensive claims could really mess you up i'd imagine.

that being said the manufacturer should still honor factory warranty on new things no matter where sold.

i know of at least one car distributor who pays claims on cars that have been privately imported

Yes and thats the rub. If you carry out warranty work on a vehicle that you havent sold its a double whammy. 1) You made a loss on the claim especially if its a labour intensive one. Flat rate times and reimbursement rates are in nearly all cases woefully short of the reality And 2) As you didnt sell the vehicle you had no profit to help buffer against any warranty claims

Katman

21st July 2013, 21:37

Honda UK eventually found a way to stop them (dont know the details).

The big guy's always going to squash the little guy.

Ender EnZed

21st July 2013, 21:40

Where would they import them from?

Wherever they can get them. Just like parallel importers of TVs, phones and everything else that's worth bringing in.

Would the customer be happy that the speedo reads in miles per hour not kilometres per hour?

I'm sure most people would prefer their speedo to read in km/h but I can't imagine it'd be a deal breaker for anyone. There are plenty of vehicles on NZ roads with speedos in MPH.

Would the bike be of the same spec as one that was brought in by the official importer?

Not necessarily but, again, not a deal breaker for most people. My Suzuki was sold new in NZ and it's a Canadian model.

98tls

21st July 2013, 21:47

Theres plenty of Bandits getting around the country with speedos reading in mph bought new from Suzuki stealerships here,whats the problem?

Katman

21st July 2013, 21:48

Wherever they can get them.

And have you actually sat down and worked out the landed cost of them?

98tls

21st July 2013, 21:59

Katman

21st July 2013, 22:04

Fuck trying to buy em new why not import very low k very late model stuff the same as hundreds of car dealers do already,offer your own warranty and source your own parts?Lets face it "NZ new" was a sales pitch from long ago.

Always interesting that those that bitch and moan the loudest never feel game enough to give it a go themselves.

98tls

21st July 2013, 22:18

Always interesting that those that bitch and moan the loudest never feel game enough to give it a go themselves.

:laugh::laugh:That would make sense if indeed i was bitching n moaning at all let alone the most.:weird:I personally have little problem with anyone making a living through the sales/servicing of motorcycles here in NZ as i rarely have need to use there services.Will add your reaction to my post makes the post worthwhile.

pritch

21st July 2013, 22:24

"Specialist Italian Made Bike" my arse. For $8.5k new it has to be a scroter, surely?

No. The $8445 included on road costs. It was almost certainly an RS125 @ $7995 + ORC.

As has been discussed on KB previously, neither the RS125 nor the RS250, which seduce newcomers with their sexy-like appearence, are ideal beginners bikes. The fastidious warm-up procedures, the requirement to use expensive oils, and the relatively frequent need to replace major parts can lead to disappointment for a new motorcyclist - or worse.

Whether the owner did in fact warm the bike up as he claimed we'll never know. The dealer would probably suspect that he didn't and consider that was why it seized.

I feel some sympathy for both parties. Triumph NZ really need to wake the Hell up, but I think that perhaps the purchaser should try golf next time?

Ender EnZed

22nd July 2013, 07:59

And have you actually sat down and worked out the landed cost of them?

Not at all.

I was just wondering if there are any rules around this specific to the motor vehicle industry or anything the official importer could do to stop it.

Robert Taylor

22nd July 2013, 13:34

Not at all.

I was just wondering if there are any rules around this specific to the motor vehicle industry or anything the official importer could do to stop it.

Open slather is not ideal for anyone

Crasherfromwayback

22nd July 2013, 13:53

Wherever they can get them. Just like parallel importers of TVs, phones and everything else that's worth bringing in.

I'm sure most people would prefer their speedo to read in km/h but I can't imagine it'd be a deal breaker for anyone. There are plenty of vehicles on NZ roads with speedos in MPH.

Not necessarily but, again, not a deal breaker for most people. My Suzuki was sold new in NZ and it's a Canadian model.

Can be more of an issue than you may well thing.Headlights dipping the wrong way...wrong flasher lenses etc etc

Mort

22nd July 2013, 14:36

Open slather is not ideal for anyone

Agree but what happens in an isolated country with monopoly brand importers ? The answer is what we see here. Probably the worst parts supply on the planet. Honda, Aprilia, BMW etc could all do better but they simply choose not. I don't know why exactly but they appear not to give a stuff about their customers needs and expectations.

Robert Taylor

22nd July 2013, 17:58

Agree but what happens in an isolated country with monopoly brand importers ? The answer is what we see here. Probably the worst parts supply on the planet. Honda, Aprilia, BMW etc could all do better but they simply choose not. I don't know why exactly but they appear not to give a stuff about their customers needs and expectations.

Yes, something that meets in the middle with less incentive to not buy offshore would be ideal

Erelyes

22nd July 2013, 18:30

The fastidious warm-up procedures, the requirement to use expensive oils, and the relatively frequent need to replace major parts can lead to disappointment for a new motorcyclist - or worse.

Of course they're disappointed; Aprilia say the engine is reliable and then it pops after a few trips round the block.

http://www.aprilia.com/Model/40/RS+125/Overview.aspx

The powerful but reliable, single cylinder, two stroke, Rotax-Aprilia engine needs no introduction.

Drew

22nd July 2013, 18:59

Of course they're disappointed; Aprilia say the engine is reliable and then it pops after a few trips round the block.

http://www.aprilia.com/Model/40/RS+125/Overview.aspxAnyone so intent on a race rep small bike, that doesn't want to do the required maintanence, is welcome to not buy the bikes.

If you nothing about it, and shell out then fuck it, I reckon it's akin to natural selection.

tri boy

22nd July 2013, 19:35

Fuck trying to buy em new why not import very low k very late model stuff the same as hundreds of car dealers do already,

Alan Cushing, (co owner of Big Bikes), and owner of ACimports, (cars) did just that.
Built up a very strong reputation for honesty, workshop, and after sale support.
Unfortunately the downturn made it impossible to keep trading under his business plan, and set overheads also helped to nail him.
Its a tough game, and I'm still waiting to meet a shop owner who drinks champagne for breakfast.

Robert Taylor

22nd July 2013, 21:37

Alan Cushing, (co owner of Big Bikes), and owner of ACimports, (cars) did just that.
Built up a very strong reputation for honesty, workshop, and after sale support.
Unfortunately the downturn made it impossible to keep trading under his business plan, and set overheads also helped to nail him.
Its a tough game, and I'm still waiting to meet a shop owner who drinks champagne for breakfast.

Yes, honesty and strong after sales ethic COSTS. And theres always some ba.t..rd out there who will cut corners to undercut you. I especially dislike confidence thriksters,dishonesty and total bullshit. We advertise our skill base including ''factory trained''. Ive always reasonably understood that to mean you have travelled to the factory ( no matter that they are usually based in the other hemisphere ) and trained at that factory.
Sadly I see ( including very recently ) that ''factory trained'' phrase used in advertising when in fact its a blatant lie. If they tell this lie what others are they telling you?

gammaguy

22nd July 2013, 22:16

Interesting point about options and so many are quick to blame dealers as ''the bad guys''. There are various layers of protections for customers who purchase machines off registered motor vehicle dealers. Much less protection if you purchase a bike off a private reseller and those who are in all but name and legalities a dealer operating from Trade Me. There are a heck of a lot of private sellers who are pretty dodgy, selling stuff with faults that were they a dealer they would get taken to the cleaners. And then there are also those that trade their bikes in with serious faults that are not immediately obvious. So in my view ( and experience ) the customers in fact have more options than the dealers, and many ''get away with murder''. Time this was all cleaned up I think.

When I had a workshop I did some remedial work on a certain four cylinder two stroke for a used bike importer.

Judging by the standard of work done by his allegedly factory trained mechanic,which I had to completely redo,he was trained in a Chinese baby milk powder factory if any factory at all