Ordering a helmet internationally? [Archive]

Robotree

22nd July 2013, 15:48

Hi Everyone, just signed up to this forum after getting my learners and buying my first bike, now I'm looking to buy a helmet.

Specifically this one:

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/shark-speed-r-helmet-solid?utm_source=youtube.com&utm_medium=description&utm_campaign=Shark_Speed_R_Helmet

I'm considering the white version, as unfortunately in NZ it's only sold in black or with a graphic. I've tried one on in store and it fits great.
I've just got a few questions about how good an idea it is to buy from overseas.

- Is it safe in terms of how helmets are handled? I know if you drop it in a store, it's basically yours, so am wondering if it's ok to trust international shipping and couriers with helmets.
- Will it be just as safe and legal? i.e. I'm assuming it'd be exactly the same helmet, not a 'US version' or anything with different requirements.
- From what I've read online it looks like GST is the only charge I could get as it comes through customs, but are there any other taxes I'd be likely to have to pay for a motorcycle helmet?

Cheers.

Maha

22nd July 2013, 16:03

Only if the helmet itself comes in contact with the ground will you need to concern yourself. Helmets come in a box and packed with polystyrene or similar.
No extra charges will be incurred ...yet.
I bought a helmet from overseas and it was a perfect fit...order now.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145624-FC-Moto?highlight=helmet+maha

HenryDorsetCase

22nd July 2013, 16:18

Ive done it twice. Once i got royally shafted, firt by the NZ distributors of Arai helmets: "Fuck you, we dont import that particular helmet, if you want an 80's icon it has to be Kevin schwantz" Me "But I saw it in Ozzie last week" them" "Fuck you, you can't have Freddie Spencer Arai, you have to have Schwantz" Me: "Fuck YOU" "Hello, Peter Stevens? yeah: Arai Freddie Spcencer, size M, in a box and in the mail, here's my creit card number".

The second shafting was I got dinged the GST in Straya and paid full retail (ouch) then I got dinged the GST and biosecurity levy and handling fee and all that fucking crap at this end. And no way to claim back the tax I paid in Straya.

Fuck it, got the helmet I wanted in the scheme I wanted. Yes its the most expensive Arai in the universe, no I dont care.

I also took a punt and ordered another helmet online out of the states. http://www.alienhelmets.com/Alien-XXR-Helmet-Race.htm

Zero problem, great to deal with, speedy service. Would trade again.

I was going to start a sideline business importing them but got a full on case of the cbf's.

ckai

22nd July 2013, 16:24

- From what I've read online it looks like GST is the only charge I could get as it comes through customs, but are there any other taxes I'd be likely to have to pay for a motorcycle helmet?

Cheers.

Flat duty fee or whatever they call it is something you may have to pay if you're unlucky as well as GST. It think it's $48 or it's going up to that and it's around $40 currently. Basically this is to cover the costs of processing the GST. If your gonna be charged GST you will be charged the flat duty tax as well.

Bringing safety gear into the country is a mixed bag. From experience you won't get stung for anything but if you bank on being charged, it's a bonus if you don't. I know a few people that have gotten off the fees they've been charged because the product couldn't be brought in NZ. Dunno what the specifics were unfortunately.

mossy1200

22nd July 2013, 17:04

Buy a helmet locally.:cool:

jellywrestler

22nd July 2013, 17:05

how you gonna know what size to get? and if it's wrong when you get it it's gonna be expensive to return...

onearmedbandit

22nd July 2013, 17:25

Bought my last Arai out of England, saved a few hundred but that wasn't the purpose, Arai didn't import the scheme I wanted into NZ. No complaints whatsoever.

And the local Arai agent know it is an import yet still service it for free.

yod

22nd July 2013, 17:29

Akzle

22nd July 2013, 17:35

bro. just get some black gaffer tape and secure styrofoam to your head with it. at speed, noone will even be able to tell.

AllanB

22nd July 2013, 19:39

Got my HJC ex USA. Again NZ did not stock the graphics I wanted - plus it was on super USA sale and a third of the NZ price ........

nzspokes

23rd July 2013, 06:36

Waits for a suspension guru to come along and tell us were the cause of all the starving kids in the country.....:jerry:

SS90

23rd July 2013, 07:04

Waits for a suspension guru to come along and tell us were the cause of all the starving kids in the country.....:jerry:

Short sighted attitudes tend to bite you in the bum, it would be different if you fed yourself from the motorcycle industry.

nzspokes

23rd July 2013, 07:53

Short sighted attitudes tend to bite you in the bum, it would be different if you fed yourself from the motorcycle industry.

Then offer some service.:facepalm:

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 07:53

how you gonna know what size to get? and if it's wrong when you get it it's gonna be expensive to return...

Because he has already made a convenience of a shop by trying one on. With no intention to support local business that employs local people and recirculates its eaernings back into local communities

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 07:55

Waits for a suspension guru to come along and tell us were the cause of all the starving kids in the country.....:jerry:

Not for your benefit

nzspokes

23rd July 2013, 07:56

Because he has already made a convenience of a shop by trying one on. With no intention to support local business that employs local people and recirculates its eaernings back into local communities

No because they only bring in one or two colours. He would have bought if the right colour was available.

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 08:03

Short sighted attitudes tend to bite you in the bum, it would be different if you fed yourself from the motorcycle industry.

Most retail industries are of course afflicted by this shift in purchasing and a total ambivalence to the negative by-products. Notably Australia and the UK who are also afflicted with this issue are also looking at levelling the playing field so that private purchasers pay the same importation costs and taxes as legitimate businesses. You effectively pay those anyway if you purchase from a NZ store, so why should it be any different if you purchase offshore. The Government is losing a lot of gst revenue that it would otherwise have accrued, so why shouldnt it look at taxing private imports to redress the balance? In reality its not a new tax

My own main helmet is an Arai, purchased locally. And the distributor reciprocated by purchasing bespoke suspension units.

White trash

23rd July 2013, 08:54

T.W.R

23rd July 2013, 09:07

:facepalm: geeez modern motorcycling the new fashion parade :oi-grr: image makes you a better motorcyclist aye :wacko:

HenryDorsetCase

23rd July 2013, 10:28

As an Arai wearer I would be surprised if the local importer wasn't interested in indent ordering the colour scheme I wanted if it wasn't one of their normal stock lines. I've always found them particularly helpful, even sourcing obsolete visor side plate colours from dead dealer stock.

Huh, so it is diametrically the opposite experience of 98% of users.

swbarnett

23rd July 2013, 12:02

I have recently purchased a new helmet from overseas. I had no problem with sizing as it was an exact replacement on insurance. Even if I had been stung with GST and import charges I still would've saved $80 on what is $600 from an NZ retailer.

My wife recently purchased boots from the same site because boots that will accommodate her large calves simply are not available in this country.

We very much prefer to buy anything that requires precise sizing from an NZ retailer. The problem is that either the price is OTT or something that fits properly is simply not available.

The Government is losing a lot of gst revenue that it would otherwise have accrued,
The way I heard it we're not charged GST on small value imports because it costs more in administration. If this is true how is the Government going to gain revenue?

onearmedbandit

23rd July 2013, 12:18

As an Arai wearer I would be surprised if the local importer wasn't interested in indent ordering the colour scheme I wanted if it wasn't one of their normal stock lines. I've always found them particularly helpful, even sourcing obsolete visor side plate colours from dead dealer stock.

Also as an Arai wear who had bought his two previous Arais from the same retailer I was told there was no chance of them importing my model. And yes they did enquire for me.

onearmedbandit

23rd July 2013, 12:21

:facepalm: geeez modern motorcycling the new fashion parade :oi-grr: image makes you a better motorcyclist aye :wacko:

Get over yourself, motorcycling has always had an element of image or fashion. Mods and rockers or whatever they called themselves in the day from what I've seen were extremely image conscious.

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 13:27

I have recently purchased a new helmet from overseas. I had no problem with sizing as it was an exact replacement on insurance. Even if I had been stung with GST and import charges I still would've saved $80 on what is $600 from an NZ retailer.

My wife recently purchased boots from the same site because boots that will accommodate her large calves simply are not available in this country.

We very much prefer to buy anything that requires precise sizing from an NZ retailer. The problem is that either the price is OTT or something that fits properly is simply not available.

The way I heard it we're not charged GST on small value imports because it costs more in administration. If this is true how is the Government going to gain revenue?

Because they may legislate the banks to do so with an administration fee. There are difficulties but they are not insurmountable and many just dont buy that it need cost more in administration.

Why does everyone use the term ( or similiar ) ''stung with gst''. Isnt it more akin to ''avoiding gst ( and border charges )'' by purchasing low value items offshore?

onearmedbandit

23rd July 2013, 13:47

Why does everyone use the term ( or similiar ) ''stung with gst''. Isnt it more akin to ''avoiding gst ( and border charges )'' by purchasing low value items offshore?

I think while as a nation we've accepted GST there is still a resentment towards it.

swbarnett

23rd July 2013, 13:48

Why does everyone use the term ( or similiar ) ''stung with gst''.
The term applies to all purchases. Even when purchasing locally.

IMO this whole argument would be solved in a flash if GST was abolished. Just increase income tax slightly to take up the shortfall and save us all a fortune in administration costs.

White trash

23rd July 2013, 13:52

Also as an Arai wear who had bought his two previous Arais from the same retailer I was told there was no chance of them importing my model. And yes they did enquire for me.

Well if they're not prepared to indent shit for customers, I can see why you'd buy over seas. I quite fancied the Fast Freddy replica myself.

HenryDorsetCase

23rd July 2013, 16:12

Well if they're not prepared to indent shit for customers, I can see why you'd buy over seas. I quite fancied the Fast Freddy replica myself.

Mate, I tried to buy it here. I went to the local dealer, pointed to a picture, and said: get that for me, I dont care how much it costs, thats what I want.. Sure thing he says. The picture was in a Two Wheels magazine. The dealer was great and ran it up the food chain. And the answer was "fuck you". So (see my post above) I said "no, fuck YOU", and bought it anyway. It wound up costing me just over $1400. dont care.

here is where it gets murky and stupid. it appears that whoever distributes Arai in NZ get range A and B. The Schwantz rep is in range B (from memory its a Chaser or a Corsair I cant remember which). The Strayan distro is different, and distributes ranges A and C (or C and D) and the Spencer rep is in range C. Hence the "Fuck you" from local Arai peeps.

The sheer stupidity of this is mind boggling to me. Its like the guy with the broken Aprilia: I am a consumer. All I want is more big macs and lollies and as long as I have money you should be feeding me: and the great great thing now is: I have a choice. I can and do import my lollies if you dont want to sell to me. Your retarded supply agreements, your murky deals with your stupid suppliers? I dont care. I want what I want.

I would pay MORE (generally) for internet shopping because I can do it in my boxer shorts or naked at home nursing a beer and entering credit card numbers. I dont WANT to go to a shop to have to deal with some fucking 12 year old with a bad attitude who last week was slinging big macs and this week is selling accessories at the LBS. I hate those people. The fact that it is cheaper and way less hassle? bonus.

T.W.R

23rd July 2013, 16:54

Get over yourself, motorcycling has always had an element of image or fashion. Mods and rockers or whatever they called themselves in the day from what I've seen were extremely image conscious.

Pull your head in Fraser, and don't use mod & rockers as an example :facepalm: they were trying to standout from the pack, not by being a travelling collage of colours....black with chrome studs & patches isn't a chunder of graphics. And motorcycling once was the domain of the rich then became the transport of the common man and black, brown or harris tweed was the colour of choice:yes:
All the extremes now are fuelled by racer image & the advertising from sponsors and it's just transgressed over to the road with riders wanting to portray their track heros...shame most try but can't.
Safety~wise the travelling kaleidoscopes these days blend in more than they standout from their surroundings, old joe bloggs in his tin-top..."what was that?, I think I saw something, think it was!...oh shit a f@#ken bike!"

I know you've got your Lucky Strike replica thing going on with your bike & matching leathers but at least you can follow up the image by being able to ride well. And the power rangers nowadays looking worse than harley riders that look like they've been through a leather shredder :facepalm:

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 18:14

I think while as a nation we've accepted GST there is still a resentment towards it.

Of course, there is a resentment to any form of taxation. But equally there is resentment towards Government when they ''wont fund this and wont fund that''. We forget where the money comes from in the first place. The Greens agitate the most. They want cradle to the grave welfare and funding for all and sundry, whilst at the same time trying to close everything down that creates revenue.

But I do accept what many people say about choice limitations, but without the emotive over dramatisation painting distributors as the bad guys with an attitude problem.

Certainly yes there needs in some instances to be a greater level of help and interest on the part of local sellers. But, not everyone is hopeless as a number of people here intimate

Dogboy900

23rd July 2013, 18:45

Pull your head in Fraser, and don't use mod & rockers as an example :facepalm: they were trying to standout from the pack, not by being a travelling collage of colours....black with chrome studs & patches isn't a chunder of graphics. And motorcycling once was the domain of the rich then became the transport of the common man and black, brown or harris tweed was the colour of choice:yes:
All the extremes now are fuelled by racer image & the advertising from sponsors and it's just transgressed over to the road with riders wanting to portray their track heros...shame most try but can't.
Safety~wise the travelling kaleidoscopes these days blend in more than they standout from their surroundings, old joe bloggs in his tin-top..."what was that?, I think I saw something, think it was!...oh shit a f@#ken bike!"

I know you've got your Lucky Strike replica thing going on with your bike & matching leathers but at least you can follow up the image by being able to ride well. And the power rangers nowadays looking worse than harley riders that look like they've been through a leather shredder :facepalm:

From what I read there you are pretty much agreeing with him. Its just your sense of fashion is offended by race replica gear and leans more towards the black leather look. The plain black leathers and matt black helmet is also a fashion choice.

I agree with OAB. Bikes are and always will be a statment of sorts, fashion or otherwise. If someone wants a helmet that is different from whats on offer where is the problem with that?

Erelyes

23rd July 2013, 18:50

Because he has already made a convenience of a shop by trying one on. With no intention to support local business that employs local people and recirculates its eaernings back into local communities

How do you know he hasn't already spent $xxx's on gear with the same shop? How do you know he didn't buy his bike there?

They can't do the design he was after... seems pretty simple to me.

swbarnett

23rd July 2013, 20:36

Of course, there is a resentment to any form of taxation.
I have no problem with tax. What I object to is the over complitation of the tax system. Remove all taxes except imcome tax and just wait for the administration costs to go through the floor.

Robert Taylor

23rd July 2013, 21:00

How do you know he hasn't already spent $xxx's on gear with the same shop? How do you know he didn't buy his bike there?

They can't do the design he was after... seems pretty simple to me.

Im articulating the very real thing that happens where people go into clothing stores etc ( not just motorcycle shops ) with the express intention of establishing size only and no intention whatsoever of purchasing locally. This guy may be more sincere than that but this immoral practice is commonplace

And Ive already responded about limited choices.

As for tax it should be on EVERYTHING irrespective of value and where purchased. From time to time I personally purchase the odd thing offshore ( when I cannot get it locally ) Id be more than happy to pay clearances and gst on every purchase.

onearmedbandit

23rd July 2013, 21:19

Pull your head in Fraser, and don't use mod & rockers as an example :facepalm:
I know you've got your Lucky Strike replica thing going on with your bike & matching leathers but at least you can follow up the image by being able to ride well. And the power rangers nowadays looking worse than harley riders that look like they've been through a leather shredder :facepalm:

Yeah bit out of line, had a shit night. And maybe my comparison wasn't right, I wasn't around then, I can only go by what I've seen. And it appeared to me that image has always been a part of motorcycling, it's own fashion as such. Funny I hadn't actually thought about myself regarding the fashion thing, I just wear what I like and don't really give two fucks what anyone thinks.

boman

23rd July 2013, 21:19

AllanB

23rd July 2013, 21:34

Bikes have always had a visual appeal to me. Shit you could build the best bike in the world and if it was not visually appealing to me I'd not own it ...........

swbarnett

23rd July 2013, 22:00

As for tax it should be on EVERYTHING irrespective of value and where purchased. From time to time I personally purchase the odd thing offshore ( when I cannot get it locally ) Id be more than happy to pay clearances and gst on every purchase.
Agreed. The other, also perfectly fair, option is to have no tax on purchases at all.

T.W.R

23rd July 2013, 22:29

From what I read there you are pretty much agreeing with him. Its just your sense of fashion is offended by race replica gear and leans more towards the black leather look. The plain black leathers and matt black helmet is also a fashion choice.

I agree with OAB. Bikes are and always will be a statment of sorts, fashion or otherwise. If someone wants a helmet that is different from whats on offer where is the problem with that?

Not really agreeing as such as Mods & Rockers were essentially the 1st forms of pommy motorcycle gangs but their bling & patches were just affiliation displays to which areas they came from and it was all based on Black :msn-wink:.
Black is the fashion colour that never goes out of fashion, and yeah thats what I wear and always have :facepalm: helmet colours have changed over the years but not dramatically.
Race replica gear doesn't offend me just amuses me because as I said most can't follow up their image with their abilities on a bike; There's a time & place for everything and if you want to race go to the track <_<

Helmets with a collage of colour blend in to their backgrounds especially in urban & city street environments mixing well with shop displays, the multitude of colours of anything along the streets etc & quite often the only part 1st seen by other road users is the bikers helmet appearing through a glimpse through other vehicles parked & moving.
Safest colours are plain & solid, yellow being the highest visually.

Yeah bit out of line, had a shit night. And maybe my comparison wasn't right, I wasn't around then, I can only go by what I've seen. And it appeared to me that image has always been a part of motorcycling, it's own fashion as such. Funny I hadn't actually thought about myself regarding the fashion thing, I just wear what I like and don't really give two fucks what anyone thinks.

No offence taken :bleh:
Motorcycling isn't really a fashion image it's what the non-motorcycling public view us as, we're different riding big high powered dual gyroscopes they can't get their heads around...were dangerous, or the bikes are dangerous & we enjoy them...leaves old Joe P scratchin :scratch: . Film & media depiction hasn't helped either.

Marketing has made motorcycling image concious, once upon a time we were humble and happy to wear black or other basic plain colours, but just like magpies we're drawn to bright shiny things...so marketing comes along & pitches make it flash and it'll sell and 'vanity thy sole is man' we thrive on looking good towards others.

Your image hasn't changed for a few years and that's what makes you you & got the goods to back it up. There's plenty of johnny come latelys that try similar but make a piss poor attempt.

Gremlin

24th July 2013, 01:56

Robert Taylor

24th July 2013, 20:48

Well, my recent experience (ie, finished it today) was wanting a fluro yellow Nolan N104. Aside from the fact that very few places actually have the fluro yellow, and it's not a line item in NZ, I got my dealer to run it up to the importer. Apparently, he has to order 6 of a unit, ie, 6x small, 6x medium etc. He doesn't think he can sell that, so won't bring it in. Fair enough, I understand his position.

On the other hand, I could order a single unit from overseas of what I want, and if I didn't know the whole story, complain the NZ distributor is a lazy bugger. Sure, he's missing out on a sale, but what is he supposed to do with the other 5?

Absolutely correct. As we very much do not have ''economy of scale'' in such a small country such problems as this for a distributor are magnified. I dont expect many to understand or want to understand these and other issues, and frankly the emotive bagging of distributors displays a total lack of understanding of the realities of this part of business.

swbarnett

24th July 2013, 22:38

Absolutely correct. As we very much do not have ''economy of scale'' in such a small country such problems as this for a distributor are magnified.
The most important thing to any business is the good will of the customer. I would think that a lot of good will would be gained if, instead of throwing up their hands in frustration, an importer were to order one of the required item from said web site and pas it on to the customer. Even if there's no financial gain for the importer or retailer it will quite likely keep the customer coming back.

Robert Taylor

25th July 2013, 07:48

The most important thing to any business is the good will of the customer. I would think that a lot of good will would be gained if, instead of throwing up their hands in frustration, an importer were to order one of the required item from said web site and pas it on to the customer. Even if there's no financial gain for the importer or retailer it will quite likely keep the customer coming back.

All good businesses exercise goodwill with their best customers anyway without recourse to having to prostitute themselves. The need to make a fair and reasonable profit ( and Im not getting into an argument about preceived massive margins ) is paramount just to recover overheads alone.

swbarnett

25th July 2013, 08:08

All good businesses exercise goodwill with their best customers anyway without recourse to having to prostitute themselves. The need to make a fair and reasonable profit ( and Im not getting into an argument about preceived massive margins ) is paramount just to recover overheads alone.
If it's no skin of your nose and it keeps a customer happy then why not? Even if it's just saying to them that "no, we can't import it but you can get one from xyz web site instead". It's just the same as a retailer directing the customer to a competitor for a product they don't stock. If you've ever seen "Mirical on 34th Street" you'll know what I mean.

The profit will be made on other things the happy customer is more inclined to buy from you because you went the extra mile for them.

SS90

25th July 2013, 19:18

Im articulating the very real thing that happens where people go into clothing stores etc ( not just motorcycle shops ) with the express intention of establishing size only and no intention whatsoever of purchasing locally. This guy may be more sincere than that but this immoral practice is commonplace

And Ive already responded about limited choices.

As for tax it should be on EVERYTHING irrespective of value and where purchased. From time to time I personally purchase the odd thing offshore ( when I cannot get it locally ) Id be more than happy to pay clearances and gst on every purchase.

I am noticing this happening less and less nowadays (although still too often to be acceptable).

Accesories sales people have (by necessity) become more savvy in dealings with customers.

While sales isn't my immediate area, time to time I answer the phone where a customer actually ask if they can come in, try a helmet, so they can order the correct size online.... And seem genuinely put out and surprised when I give definate no.

There has become a sense of right to use a bike shops resources for free, as, well, the internet is free isn't it?

I have seen even in the last 5 years attitudes becoming more realistic( in regards to expectations )...... Simply because (worldwide) bike shops have closed down (and continue to do so) and (logical thinking reasonable people) have deduced the reason for this.

The internet is here to stay, but the opportunistic fly by night "businesses" that populate it aren't.

Yex

28th July 2013, 13:56

I recently purchased my new helmet from the US.

After looking around on the net and figuring out what I wanted, I went into my local bike shop to buy.
They didn't have the graphics I wanted in stock and explained to me why: HJC helmets are made in Korea, the two biggest markets, obviously, are Europe and the US, then you've got Asia, Aust, a bunch of other places, then the 4million people in NZ. Basically we are the bottom of the heap, we get to choose from what the manufacturer has left to send us rather than what we might want. So there was no hope of the version I wanted being shipped here.

I tried on a different one for size, bought a nice RST jacket and went home and ordered what I wanted from the states.

As for customs, anything with a value over (or even close to if you are unlucky) NZ$400 you will get charged 15% GST. You will also get charged an admin fee of approx. $38.

What is supposed to happen when your item arrives in NZ is customs check it out, decide they are going to charge you, send you a letter with an entry number and amount to pay. You pay, they send you your stuff.

In my experience what actually happens is your item arrives in NZ and customs throws it in a corner somewhere and forgets about it.
What you need to do is keep an eye on the tracking information that you get sent when your order ships from overseas. As soon as it shows as "Arrived in NZ, Customs Clearance" ring NZ Post's 0800 number and ask about it. They will give you the customs entry number and the amount to pay, then you ring customs pay them the money and they generally ship it out to you the next day.

slowpoke

31st July 2013, 00:39

Not really agreeing as such as Mods & Rockers were essentially the 1st forms of pommy motorcycle gangs but their bling & patches were just affiliation displays to which areas they came from and it was all based on Black :msn-wink:.
Black is the fashion colour that never goes out of fashion, and yeah thats what I wear and always have :facepalm: helmet colours have changed over the years but not dramatically.
Race replica gear doesn't offend me just amuses me because as I said most can't follow up their image with their abilities on a bike; There's a time & place for everything and if you want to race go to the track <_<

No offence taken :bleh:
Motorcycling isn't really a fashion image it's what the non-motorcycling public view us as, we're different riding big high powered dual gyroscopes they can't get their heads around...were dangerous, or the bikes are dangerous & we enjoy them...leaves old Joe P scratchin :scratch: . Film & media depiction hasn't helped either.

Marketing has made motorcycling image concious, once upon a time we were humble and happy to wear black or other basic plain colours, but just like magpies we're drawn to bright shiny things...so marketing comes along & pitches make it flash and it'll sell and 'vanity thy sole is man' we thrive on looking good towards others.

Your image hasn't changed for a few years and that's what makes you you & got the goods to back it up. There's plenty of johnny come latelys that try similar but make a piss poor attempt.

Mate, unless you pick your gear in the dark we're all just trying to become the image we hold in our heads. Black is no different. Your derision of race rep gear makes it plain you hold image just as dear, if not more so tha the rest of us. Most folks don't give a toss what other folks wear whereas you obviously do. So those who wear black are just opting for a different hero/image, be it Marlon Brando, Geoff Duke or that "tough cunt" gang affiliate up the road. Can they ride like Mr Duke? Do they have the charisma of Brando? Do they enjoy beating up school boys half their age/size? I doubt it, but I'm not gonna judge them for it.

I've seen some truly horrendous "outfits" worn by the nicest people you'd ever wish to meet, so I fail to see why the hell it matters what someone chooses to buy/wear, but it obviously does to some. Go figure......

bosslady

31st July 2013, 07:59

We should just all ride naked. Problem solved. No fashion issues, except who has what piercing or tattoo where.. oh wait it starts all over again...

haydes55

31st July 2013, 08:09

If you want race rep gear then go for it. Race rep gear helps sponsor racing. Companies make gear that looks the same as racers, charge more and sponsor the rider. If they sell heaps of replica gear they will be more inclined to continue sponsorship. I think it's not just a fashion issue. I think it's supporting your favourite riders and racing series.

T.W.R

31st July 2013, 08:53

Mate, unless you pick your gear in the dark we're all just trying to become the image we hold in our heads. Black is no different. Your derision of race rep gear makes it plain you hold image just as dear, if not more so tha the rest of us. Most folks don't give a toss what other folks wear whereas you obviously do. So those who wear black are just opting for a different hero/image, be it Marlon Brando, Geoff Duke or that "tough cunt" gang affiliate up the road. Can they ride like Mr Duke? Do they have the charisma of Brando? Do they enjoy beating up school boys half their age/size? I doubt it, but I'm not gonna judge them for it.

I've seen some truly horrendous "outfits" worn by the nicest people you'd ever wish to meet, so I fail to see why the hell it matters what someone chooses to buy/wear, but it obviously does to some. Go figure......

:yawn: you've been watching too many hollywood movies

And nothing looks as gayer than some twat prancing around looking like a licorice allsort with friggin knee sliders, back hump etc at a rally or gathering....:nya:they get plenty of looks for sure, mainly followed by comments of what a wanker or what a fuckin hero :oi-grr: truth is half the dicks couldn't ride a hot knife into butter!

Gremlin

31st July 2013, 10:26

And nothing looks as gayer than some twat prancing around looking like a licorice allsort with friggin knee sliders, back hump etc at a rally or gathering....:nya:they get plenty of looks for sure, mainly followed by comments of what a wanker or what a fuckin hero :oi-grr: truth is half the dicks couldn't ride a hot knife into butter!
The point train... you missed it...

T.W.R

31st July 2013, 10:52

The point train... you missed it...

Someone has feed the trolls, looks pretty much like you got hooked up aswell :yes:

Funny how the whole post was taken and yet picks on the 1st paragraph :pinch:

The 2nd to last sentence in it sums up the whole attitude to motorcycle apparel :facepalm:

The only bug I have with the whole ploy of motorcycle apparel is that if you want to look like you've come from doing a hot lap around the local race track back it up by actually getting out there on the track and do it :yes: the majority wouldn't have the balls yet on the road they try to emulate it :oi-grr: of which half become the figures on ACCs charts that cause the rest of us so much grief with levys.

Robert Taylor

10th August 2013, 19:09

Someone has feed the trolls, looks pretty much like you got hooked up aswell :yes:

Funny how the whole post was taken and yet picks on the 1st paragraph :pinch:

The 2nd to last sentence in it sums up the whole attitude to motorcycle apparel :facepalm:

The only bug I have with the whole ploy of motorcycle apparel is that if you want to look like you've come from doing a hot lap around the local race track back it up by actually getting out there on the track and do it :yes: the majority wouldn't have the balls yet on the road they try to emulate it :oi-grr: of which half become the figures on ACCs charts that cause the rest of us so much grief with levys.

Yes, clearly there are a lot of idiots out there that think they can safely ride as fast as Jorge Lorenzo, on the road. Such people do indeed impact on ACC levies, as do many scooter riders with little or no protective clothing. As do many bikes that are so poorly adjusted and with wear issues, making them dangerous.

As far as race replica clothing, each to their own. Personally I prefer to wear bright colours that are highly visible. Certainly when I drive a car ( most of the time ) I find it arguably a lot easier to become aware of riders making every effort to be visible. As for black motorcycle clothing I guess you could say that also is race replica clothing, predominantly from the 50s and 60s.................

That there is so much mild scorn for those who choose to wear brighter colours ( and in fairness maybe thats not always an intention in itself ) is kind of indicative of some of our channelled / polarised mindsets

One thing is clear, if you can afford it prioritise going for the higher end motorcycle protective gear. A lot of the cheaper leathers on the market may as well be just textile. Myself I owe my life to Dainese leathers and a Bell helmet, coming up 30 years ago . Current attire is Alpinestars and Arai. And thats for my occupation that includes road testing.

Berries

10th August 2013, 21:55

Yes, clearly there are a lot of idiots out there that think they can safely ride as fast as Jorge Lorenzo, on the road. Such people do indeed impact on ACC levies, as do many scooter riders with little or no protective clothing.
No they don't. They only impact on ACC levies if they crash and make a claim. Whilst what you wear may indeed reduce the severity of your injuries in the event of a crash, or so you hope, the fact that you are geared up with the latest stingray hide helmet, kangaroo skin neckbrace, and hi-viz airbags does not necessarily mean you are less likely to crash, make a claim and thus impact on ACC levies.

Just to throw it out there, if I was riding in jandals and bare hands I would be a damn site more careful than I would if I had my boots and gloves on. Perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is all the ATGATT aficionados who think they are safe who are crashing and impacting on ACC levies?

nzspokes

11th August 2013, 07:46

No they don't. They only impact on ACC levies if they crash and make a claim. Whilst what you wear may indeed reduce the severity of your injuries in the event of a crash, or so you hope, the fact that you are geared up with the latest stingray hide helmet, kangaroo skin neckbrace, and hi-viz airbags does not necessarily mean you are less likely to crash, make a claim and thus impact on ACC levies.

Just to throw it out there, if I was riding in jandals and bare hands I would be a damn site more careful than I would if I had my boots and gloves on. Perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is all the ATGATT aficionados who think they are safe who are crashing and impacting on ACC levies?

After my recent extensive study into the workings of hospitals, motorcycle related crashes, ACC etc I have come to the conclusion that except for your helmet and boots the rest of your gear is to keep skin on ya body. And the wards that look after skin grafts are the most expensive wards to be in long term. I think I heard a figure of $1200 a night.

Robert Taylor

11th August 2013, 19:29

No they don't. They only impact on ACC levies if they crash and make a claim. Whilst what you wear may indeed reduce the severity of your injuries in the event of a crash, or so you hope, the fact that you are geared up with the latest stingray hide helmet, kangaroo skin neckbrace, and hi-viz airbags does not necessarily mean you are less likely to crash, make a claim and thus impact on ACC levies.

Just to throw it out there, if I was riding in jandals and bare hands I would be a damn site more careful than I would if I had my boots and gloves on. Perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is all the ATGATT aficionados who think they are safe who are crashing and impacting on ACC levies?

Yes, but would other road users be more careful for YOUR safety if you were silly enough to ride in shorts and jandals?

I will personally carry on using common sense, as much protective gear as possible and taking nothing for granted, with respect for other road users.

Robert Taylor

11th August 2013, 19:36

After my recent extensive study into the workings of hospitals, motorcycle related crashes, ACC etc I have come to the conclusion that except for your helmet and boots the rest of your gear is to keep skin on ya body. And the wards that look after skin grafts are the most expensive wards to be in long term. I think I heard a figure of $1200 a night.

Yes, that's a horrible figure and all road users should be doing their bit to reduce the frequency of visits to such wards.

mossy1200

11th August 2013, 19:37

I look a lot better in all my gear and full face helmet. Jandals and man thong not so much so.

swbarnett

11th August 2013, 22:19

Yes, but would other road users be more careful for YOUR safety if you were silly enough to ride in shorts and jandals?
Quite frankly, who cares? What other drivers think or see of me is irrelevant to my safety as long as I've got my head screwed on. I had a minor accident recently where I was hit from behind. If I'd known they were there it would never have happened. Lesson learned.

Whether or not an individual is ATGATT says nothing about their contribution to the ACC bill apart from the fact that IF they come off it will likely be higher.

Robert Taylor

12th August 2013, 08:03

Quite frankly, who cares? What other drivers think or see of me is irrelevant to my safety as long as I've got my head screwed on. I had a minor accident recently where I was hit from behind. If I'd known they were there it would never have happened. Lesson learned.

Whether or not an individual is ATGATT says nothing about their contribution to the ACC bill apart from the fact that IF they come off it will likely be higher.

Well you've certainly confirmed a few suspicions about attitudes.............

swbarnett

12th August 2013, 10:55

Well you've certainly confirmed a few suspicions about attitudes.............
Do tell...

My view on ACC is that it exists primarily as a no-fault system to protect our personal freedoms. What m/c gear we choose to wear is one of those freedoms (helmet included but that's another story). There are plenty of riders in "full" gear that are at a greater risk of becoming a cost to ACC than those with no gear. Better to be riding naked with your head screwed on than covered in cotton-wool without a clue.

BTW: I am ATGATT with the exception that I don't wear back or chest protector, air-bag jacket or Hi-Viz. And I don't always wear armoured trousers.

Robert Taylor

12th August 2013, 18:06

Do tell...

My view on ACC is that it exists primarily as a no-fault system to protect our personal freedoms. What m/c gear we choose to wear is one of those freedoms (helmet included but that's another story). There are plenty of riders in "full" gear that are at a greater risk of becoming a cost to ACC than those with no gear. Better to be riding naked with your head screwed on than covered in cotton-wool without a clue.

BTW: I am ATGATT with the exception that I don't wear back or chest protector, air-bag jacket or Hi-Viz. And I don't always wear armoured trousers.

Certainly yes there will be an element of " I have all the gear on and Im bulletproof ''. But it personally makes me cringe when ( for example) I see schoolkids riding around on scooters in short sleeves, sandals, shorts and bare hands. And as I stated previously you may well be riding around near naked and be aware of yourself observing a need for a big safety margin, BUT that is not enough when you have a huge percentage of car drivers that give motorcycles little quarter. Or, you may have say a sudden front tyre deflation and you falloff. So accidents that happen in such ways impact on EVERYONES ACC levies, and a failure to observe a sensible level of protective gear usage impacts even further on a cost to ACC.
That in itself is an encroachment on what you term as freedom. I.e I and many others would like to be relatively free of the level of ACC levies we pay because we are subsidising needless higher levels of injury because of a lack of regard for personal safety. Moreover its very much a ''she'll be right attitude'' fed by this ''no fault'' system. Someones ''free lunch'' on the system is being paid for by others.
The Bell helmets ad in the 70s was so perceptive ''If youve got a $10 head wear a $10 helmet''.

mossy1200

12th August 2013, 18:25

swbarnett

12th August 2013, 19:21

Certainly yes there will be an element of " I have all the gear on and Im bulletproof ''. But it personally makes me cringe when ( for example) I see schoolkids riding around on scooters in short sleeves, sandals, shorts and bare hands. And as I stated previously you may well be riding around near naked and be aware of yourself observing a need for a big safety margin, BUT that is not enough when you have a huge percentage of car drivers that give motorcycles little quarter. Or, you may have say a sudden front tyre deflation and you falloff. So accidents that happen in such ways impact on EVERYONES ACC levies, and a failure to observe a sensible level of protective gear usage impacts even further on a cost to ACC.
That in itself is an encroachment on what you term as freedom. I.e I and many others would like to be relatively free of the level of ACC levies we pay because we are subsidising needless higher levels of injury because of a lack of regard for personal safety. Moreover its very much a ''she'll be right attitude'' fed by this ''no fault'' system. Someones ''free lunch'' on the system is being paid for by others.
The Bell helmets ad in the 70s was so perceptive ''If youve got a $10 head wear a $10 helmet''.
This is all very sensible on the surface and, in an ideal world, we would all be ATGATT1. However, in the real world we are not all the same. One person's idea of a "sensible level of protective gear" is not the same as another's (even among those in the know). What worries me is that, in the name of reducing cost2, our freedom to be individuals is being irrevocably eroded. It's not too much of a stretch to see a time in the not too distant future when motorcycles are out-lawed for the same reasons you put above.

1How boring that would be.

2Of course the real reason our levies are so high has nothing to do with the real m/cycle ACC cost

Robert Taylor

12th August 2013, 19:56

This is all very sensible on the surface and, in an ideal world, we would all be ATGATT1. However, in the real world we are not all the same. One person's idea of a "sensible level of protective gear" is not the same as another's (even among those in the know). What worries me is that, in the name of reducing cost2, our freedom to be individuals is being irrevocably eroded. It's not too much of a stretch to see a time in the not too distant future when motorcycles are out-lawed for the same reasons you put above.

1How boring that would be.

2Of course the real reason our levies are so high has nothing to do with the real m/cycle ACC cost

Yes that's possible, especially if we don't self regulate. Its a conundrum, that much is clear.

Berries

12th August 2013, 20:46

Yes, but would other road users be more careful for YOUR safety if you were silly enough to ride in shorts and jandals?
I doubt that what I am wearing is a factor in the thoughts of any other road user, apart from other bike riders who think I look a fool either because I am wearing more protective gear than they think is necessary or a fool for wearing less than they think necessary.

I will personally carry on using common sense, as much protective gear as possible and taking nothing for granted, with respect for other road users.
Wholeheartedly agree but with one small change. I will personally carry on using common sense, as much protective gear as I feel happy with and taking nothing for granted, with respect for other road users. It is all down to a personal risk assessment, you've done yours, I've done mine, and the school kid has done his. As long as they don't become a statistic why should we be concerned? We should be more concerned with those who do become statistic, the level of clothing is a secondary factor.

T.W.R

13th August 2013, 00:02

It really boils down to decency & respect for ones self and others, If a rider can afford a bike worth thousands of dollars then surely they have the brain capacity to include protection to be able to continue enjoying what the bike offers; Bikes offer no form of protection by themselves & the chumps that dice with possible injury or maiming aren't doing themselves any favours & obviously haven't endured the pain involved when things go wrong (and inevitably they always will somewhere along the line).
What was it the Hurt report (US) & Maids report (UK) 75% of accident involve other vehicles & 4times more likely to be fatal by comparison to other vehicles. And funnily enough 2/3 of accident involving other vehicles (ie cars etc) no form of avoidance was done by the other vehicle.. so doesn't matter whether your in fluro etc or plain black they just don't see you...but in saying that bikes with white frontal area were more involved & black clad riders were a small percentage. And good old plain Leather is the best abrasive resistant material.

swbarnett

13th August 2013, 10:52

Yes that's possible, especially if we don't self regulate. Its a conundrum, that much is clear.
Self-regulation is good but only applicable to a point. We have to be careful to not over do it. If we go too far we end up doing the anti-bike zealot's job for them. Even more people will be deterred from riding because it's seen as too dangerous.

swbarnett

13th August 2013, 11:00

Bikes offer no form of protection by themselves
On the contrary. To a skilled rider bikes offer the same level of protection as a car (and often more). It's called the ability to avoid having an accident in the first place.

& obviously haven't endured the pain involved when things go wrong (and inevitably they always will somewhere along the line).
That attitude is just asking for it. No accident is inevitable.

haydes55

13th August 2013, 11:16

Just to throw it out there, if I was riding in jandals and bare hands I would be a damn site more careful than I would if I had my boots and gloves on. Perhaps the opposite is true, perhaps it is all the ATGATT aficionados who think they are safe who are crashing and impacting on ACC levies?

If I was riding in jandals, shirtless and shorts. I would ride exactly the same as when I wear all my gear. Only a future statistic will ever ride less safe than the safest they can. No matter what you wear a crash can kill you. A crash naked could result in less injuries than a crash in full gear.

It's not safety gear OR safe riding. It's both. All the time.

T.W.R

13th August 2013, 12:15

On the contrary. To a skilled rider bikes offer the same level of protection as a car (and often more). It's called the ability to avoid having an accident in the first place.

So you know more than the people that compiled the report then huh? and BTW you're quoting the riders ability, that has nothing to do with the bike :niceone:

That attitude is just asking for it. No accident is inevitable.

Yet again the figures compiled say otherwise :niceone:

swbarnett

13th August 2013, 13:33

So you know more than the people that compiled the report then huh? and BTW you're quoting the riders ability, that has nothing to do with the bike :niceone:
Yet the rider's skill would be useless without the inate qualities of the machine that make accident avoidance possible. It's a combination of the two.

Yet again the figures compiled say otherwise :niceone:
No, they don't. It is impossible for statistics to show that it is inevitable that a given rider will have an accident. That would take a crystal ball and is beyond the realm of statistics.

T.W.R

13th August 2013, 15:58

Yet the rider's skill would be useless without the inate qualities of the machine that make accident avoidance possible. It's a combination of the two.

:clap: make your mind up what you're saying, and clearly read what you're quoting in the 1st place :oi-grr:
An inate object is exactly what a motorcycle is without a rider at the controls, thats why the quote was "Bikes offer no form of protection by themselves"
You could have an experienced rider on a neglected bike & an inexperienced rider on a brand new perfectly set up bike put them in exactly the same scenario and the results would speak for them selves...I know which I'd be backing

No, they don't. It is impossible for statistics to show that it is inevitable that a given rider will have an accident. That would take a crystal ball and is beyond the realm of statistics.

And instead of saying "say" I should have put "suggest" because not matter where you go or what reports of gathered data statistically the numbers are always against us; in reality some of us are fully aware & prepared for this, some have already been there & done that; and there's some who live in the twilight zone who don't believe it'll ever happen to them. Doesn't matter if you've attended training schools or consumed as much safety related material and adhere doggedly to it, statistically somewhere along our motorcycling journeys we'll come to grief whether it be involving another vehicle, self induced, mechanical failure, or conditions; It's far better to be aware of the fact rather than in denial. If you want to live in denial of the possibility that's your choice but don't go crying when something does happen, there's a minority out there that happily prance around saying they've never had an accident...truth of the fact is they're more than likely to be outright liars or their clock is ticking.

Robert Taylor

13th August 2013, 21:44

:clap: make your mind up what you're saying, and clearly read what you're quoting in the 1st place :oi-grr:
An inate object is exactly what a motorcycle is without a rider at the controls, thats why the quote was "Bikes offer no form of protection by themselves"
You could have an experienced rider on a neglected bike & an inexperienced rider on a brand new perfectly set up bike put them in exactly the same scenario and the results would speak for them selves...I know which I'd be backing

And instead of saying "say" I should have put "suggest" because not matter where you go or what reports of gathered data statistically the numbers are always against us; in reality some of us are fully aware & prepared for this, some have already been there & done that; and there's some who live in the twilight zone who don't believe it'll ever happen to them. Doesn't matter if you've attended training schools or consumed as much safety related material and adhere doggedly to it, statistically somewhere along our motorcycling journeys we'll come to grief whether it be involving another vehicle, self induced, mechanical failure, or conditions; It's far better to be aware of the fact rather than in denial. If you want to live in denial of the possibility that's your choice but don't go crying when something does happen, there's a minority out there that happily prance around saying they've never had an accident...truth of the fact is they're more than likely to be outright liars or their clock is ticking.

Exactly. My big road accident many years ago. Ripped the tandem axles out of a trailer, comprehensively shortening and writing off my RZ500. 50% fault of the guy towing the trailer as he didn't see me. Higher visibility leathers weren't so readily available back in 85', and you would have had the same derisory comments from ''leathers should only be black ''people about wearing bright race replica gear. Im not saying higher visibility gear would have avoided this accident, but I see it as another insurance policy to help every chance of accident avoidance
50% my fault as I was young and stupid and travelling at 140km / hour plus. Clear line of sight ahead excepting for the car and trailer pulling out of a side gate. So not enough road to pull up and avoid. Had I been travelling at the legal limit I may have avoided impact or at minimum lessened it.
I am forever thankful for the superb abrasion resistance of the Dainese leathers I was wearing and the Bell helmet which was comprehensively damaged.

98tls

13th August 2013, 22:28

On the contrary. To a skilled rider bikes offer the same level of protection as a car (and often more). It's called the ability to avoid having an accident in the first place.

That attitude is just asking for it. No accident is inevitable.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::niceone:At 42 i thought id heard some shit come outta the mouths of motorcyclists then the mrs decided she needed the internet which produced some laughs,at 50 that takes the cake fella.:clap:Over the years ive had my share of offs but hey thats life on 2 wheels,many many moons ago my cousin was heading back to the Air force base up in Blenheim on her bike,for reasons only known to himself an 83 year old decided to cross the centerline on a 3km long straight,no warning no anything he simply swerved and placed his vehicle into hers...didnt even bother braking.Explain to me what you would have done to avoid the inevitability of that...

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 06:57

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 07:03

Exactly. My big road accident many years ago. ...
Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 07:11

,many many moons ago my cousin was heading back to the Air force base up in Blenheim on her bike,for reasons only known to himself an 83 year old decided to cross the centerline on a 3km long straight,no warning no anything he simply swerved and placed his vehicle into hers...didnt even bother braking.Explain to me what you would have done to avoid the inevitability of that...
Been there, done that. Call it luck if you will but I had the ingrained instinct and just enough road to swerve and accellerate past them.

Also, my wife has me a car on her side of the road overtaking on a tight blind right-hander. Again, the ingrained instinct was present and the verge was used resulting in no accident at all.

Sometimes I wonder why you guys that believe an accident to be inevitable ride at all. Do you get off on the adrenalin?

Berries

14th August 2013, 07:26

If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow.
Couldn't agree more. While there is always the possibility that something might happen, and you have to ride and dress appropriately for it, it is not inevitable. If it was bikes would have been banned years ago and my Mum would have been right.

I deal with crashes everyday as part of my job and while the majority of them have some degree of inevitability about them due to the action of one or more parties, the numbers in no way support the position that every rider is going to have a big crash. Come on, if I knew I was going to get badly injured at work at some point I would change jobs, same with my wheels. Shit happens, I lost a close family friend in the exact same scenario that Robert Taylor described, but nothing is inevitable.

Apart from death, taxes and Kiwi nurses so I was always told.

Robert Taylor

14th August 2013, 07:58

Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

Of course, but Im grateful that I had a suitable level of protection that saved a LOT of gravel rash. AND, also it saved the taxpayer from an even bigger ACC payout.

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 09:52

Of course, but Im grateful that I had a suitable level of protection that saved a LOT of gravel rash.
As would I be in similar circumstances.

AND, also it saved the taxpayer from an even bigger ACC payout.
Of this there is no doubt. However, in the current climate it had no affect whatsoever on our levies as they are set for a political agenda, not based on the real cost.

ACC exists to help preserve the many freedoms we hold dear. One of these is our right to decide for ourselves the level of risk that we are willing to accept.

T.W.R

14th August 2013, 10:12

Fair point. Semantics of wording and interpretation. Just trying to say that even a being on a crappy bike is a damn sight safer than being in traffic without a vehicle of any kind (to a point).

:lol: No you weren't

Indeed. Statistics only talk about the "average" rider; they are not a good predictor of the fate of any given individual.

:killingme mmm how do stats & the people gathering the stats decide who is an average rider :rolleyes:

Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

:lol: the statistics were gathered from all types of accidents...nothing to do with major accidents :oi-grr: Far from supporting tin-tops sunshine, just having the ability to face reality;
And for a fact it doesn't have to be a major accident to kill you.
If you're scared of having an off of any kind then bye bye go take up another past time...FFS people die in their own beds for no reason...doesn't mean we'll give up sleeping in fear of it

Couldn't agree more. While there is always the possibility that something might happen, and you have to ride and dress appropriately for it, it is not inevitable. If it was bikes would have been banned years ago and my Mum would have been right.

I deal with crashes everyday as part of my job and while the majority of them have some degree of inevitability about them due to the action of one or more parties, the numbers in no way support the position that every rider is going to have a big crash. Come on, if I knew I was going to get badly injured at work at some point I would change jobs, same with my wheels. Shit happens, I lost a close family friend in the exact same scenario that Robert Taylor described, but nothing is inevitable.

Apart from death, taxes and Kiwi nurses so I was always told.

As above: :nono: there was no part of any of those reports that indicated or pointed towards the gathered data saying "major accidents" period!

Just Accidents thats why they're called accidents..no one can predict them, we can do all we can to minimise the chance of it happening but thats all

Instead of trying to zero in one thing get the whole picture and face reality

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 11:41

:lol: No you weren't
Yeah, I was actually. Obviously I didn't say it too well.

:killingme mmm how do stats & the people gathering the stats decide who is an average rider :rolleyes:
They don't. All they can do is produce results based on what was sampled. Hence the "average" rider.

:lol: the statistics were gathered from all types of accidents...nothing to do with major accidents :oi-grr: Far from supporting tin-tops sunshine, just having the ability to face reality;
It seemed to me that Robert and others were trying to say that all motorcyclists can expect to have a major accident in their riding career at some point. I may have subconsciously inserted the "major" part. My apologies if I did.

The reality is somewhat different. While it is true that most motorcyclist will have some sort of accident at some point (my wife and I certainly fall into this category), it is not true to say that it is inevitable for every rider. There are riders out there that have been riding for decades without having one accident.

And for a fact it doesn't have to be a major accident to kill you.
Doesn't that make it a major accident?

If you're scared of having an off of any kind then bye bye go take up another past time...FFS people die in their own beds for no reason...doesn't mean we'll give up sleeping in fear of it
I quite agree.

While "having an off" is something I certainly try to avoid, I don't live in fear of it. You and I are of like mind when it comes to living in spite of the risks involved.

Robert Taylor

14th August 2013, 12:47

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 13:12

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !
That would be pushing it a bit far and assume a knowledge of another's circumstances and principles that none of us posess. I would, however, say that the decision as to whether or not they are "needed" on any given ride should be left up to the individual rider.

T.W.R

14th August 2013, 13:26

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !

Hey Robert, this is direct from the conclusions section of the report item

Risk Valorization.[21] This is the acceptance that risk is unavoidable but can be embraced by making certain choices, whereby motorcyclists, "reappropriate risk and motorcycling as something which can't be measured only according to utility and efficiency... This discourse doesn't eschew safety in absolute terms, but neither does it maintain the validity of safety as the be-all and end-all for riding."[15] Motorcycling advocate and writer Wendy Moon said that one of the reasons she relaxed her insistence on always wearing a helmet while riding was that she no longer considered it worth "the mental effort required to maintain that protective attitude. I am not free to live in the now because I’m enslaved to the future 'what if.' ...So we gradually distance ourselves from experiencing a full and free life and we don’t even know it. As a society, we’re like kids so bundled up against the snow we cannot move at all.... Embracing that risk rejuvenates the soul and empowers one to live the rest of her life as she wants."[2

But there's this too

Helmet — A full-face helmet provides the most protection. Thirty-five percent of all crashes show major impact on the chin-bar area.[32] However, 3/4- and 1/2-helmets also are available. Some motorcycle training sites[which?] have banned the use of half-helmets because of avoidable injuries sustained by riders wearing them.

Robert Taylor

14th August 2013, 13:28

That would be pushing it a bit far and assume a knowledge of another's circumstances and principles that none of us posess. I would, however, say that the decision as to whether or not they are "needed" on any given ride should be left up to the individual rider.

It was a feeble attempt on my part at sarcasm.

T.W.R

14th August 2013, 13:48

They don't. All they can do is produce results based on what was sampled. Hence the "average" rider.

In statistics the average is the median figure :msn-wink:

The reality is somewhat different. While it is true that most motorcyclist will have some sort of accident at some point (my wife and I certainly fall into this category), it is not true to say that it is inevitable for every rider. There are riders out there that have been riding for decades without having one accident.

Some riders are lucky enough to get away without ever being in the situation where they'll have an accident, doesn't mean to say that their a good or skilled rider because until the put in the situation they don't know how they'll react...basic psychology fight or flight reaction; even very well trained & experienced riders can't say how an event is going unfold until they're in the situation...doing all the right things doesn't always mean the result is going to be what you want.

Myself I've had two good prangs which could have resulted in a fatality, one through my own stupidity of 10ft tall bullet proof teenage enthusiasm and the second where I did all I could to avoid the impact yet still came away with a munted arm that'll be a constant reminder for me for as long as I'm alive

Doesn't that make it a major accident?

Nah that makes it a Fatal accident, falling over & landing wrongly & breaking your neck is a fatal accident but not a major accident, falling 30m of the side of a hill & breaking your pelvis & back is a major accident etc :msn-wink:

I quite agree.

While "having an off" is something I certainly try to avoid, I don't live in fear of it. You and I are of like mind when it comes to living in spite of the risks involved.

Ditto, I ride for the enjoyment of the experience it gives, never fearing it but I'm well aware of the risk, take the steps to minimise that risk and respect what the possible consequences are of every action I take.

swbarnett

14th August 2013, 14:16

In statistics the average is the median figure :msn-wink:
Although they often work out to be the same number they are quite different concepts.

Some riders are lucky enough to get away without ever being in the situation where they'll have an accident, doesn't mean to say that their a good or skilled rider because until the put in the situation they don't know how they'll react...basic psychology fight or flight reaction; even very well trained & experienced riders can't say how an event is going unfold until they're in the situation...
True. One can't really determine if a given individual is a gifted rider or just "lucky".

doing all the right things doesn't always mean the result is going to be what you want.
If the result isn't what you want then you didn't do the right things. Often what works in a given situation is contrary to what is normally considered "right" under the circumstances. For that matter, the very concept of "right" depends very much on the individual's intended outcome.

Nah that makes it a Fatal accident, falling over & landing wrongly & breaking your neck is a fatal accident but not a major accident, falling 30m of the side of a hill & breaking your pelvis & back is a major accident etc :msn-wink:
Tomato/Tomato (said with a strong British and American accent respectively). I see what you mean though. Minor accident, major consequence.

Ditto, I ride for the enjoyment of the experience it gives, never fearing it but I'm well aware of the risk, take the steps to minimise that risk and respect what the possible consequences are of every action I take.[/QUOTE]

yod

14th August 2013, 15:43

so what was the conclusion?

should we be buying helmets internationally or not?

:bleh:

Robert Taylor

14th August 2013, 18:06

so what was the conclusion?

should we be buying helmets internationally or not?

:bleh:

Absolutely ( and this is also sarcasm ) Buy EVERYTHING internationally including milk and foodstuffs. That way no-one will have a job in NZ

Morcs

14th August 2013, 18:50

Buying helmets internationally doesnt mean you get the same helmet.

Arai for instance have 3 shapes they manufacture for different markets - namely Japan, Europe and America.
We tend to get european helmets here, as our heads tend to be shaped like europeans.
American helmets might not differ much but they are usually heavier to comply with DOT.

I would love to see regulation such as they have in australia where you have to have a specific australian sticker on the helmet, and its the first thing cops check - you cant even buy a helmet in NZ and use it in australia.

Warranty also probably goes out the window. Warranty claims most of the time are at the importers expense - its built into the pricing that the purchase the helmets from, they wouldnt send back faulty helmets to japan or wherever to get a credit, therefore if its not purchased in NZ, you might not find anyone too helpful should you have a problem (though helmets seldom do)

I dont have many qualms if its something that doesnt get brought into NZ. Stuff can be indented depending on the brand/supplier, but you usually have to wait weeks for it (which if its something you really want and no-one else is likely to be seen with one in nz then its usually worth the wait) - I sell Arai and my partner has just imported one as the importer here could not obtain one due to it being discontinued.

NZ isnt too bad price wise. Probably the best all round road helmet on the market is the Shoei GT Air at current, and a plain black one of these can be had for as little as 699 rrp.

nzspokes

14th August 2013, 18:54

so what was the conclusion?

should we be buying helmets internationally or not?

:bleh:

Yes cause they dont bring in the cool colours.

Erelyes

14th August 2013, 19:29

Absolutely ( and this is also sarcasm ) Buy EVERYTHING internationally including milk and foodstuffs. That way no-one will have a job in NZ

I know.

Noone is allowed to import anything. We must make EVERYTHING locally.

I'm going to buy up on colanders (made locally ofc) and that EPS foam shit that's inefficent to recycle (produced locally ofc). NZ helmet manufacture returns!

Robert Taylor

14th August 2013, 19:54

I know.

Noone is allowed to import anything. We must make EVERYTHING locally.

I'm going to buy up on colanders (made locally ofc) and that EPS foam shit that's inefficent to recycle (produced locally ofc). NZ helmet manufacture returns!

No not that far, NZ helmets were quite terrible. There just has to be a balance somewhere, without inviting further scathing comment about how evil and useless NZ businesses are

Digitdion

15th August 2013, 21:43

Warranty also probably goes out the window. Warranty claims most of the time are at the importers expense - its built into the pricing that the purchase the helmets from, they wouldnt send back faulty helmets to japan or wherever to get a credit, therefore if its not purchased in NZ, you might not find anyone too helpful should you have a problem (though helmets seldom do)
.

A lot of people talk about the fact that if you buy overseas that no warranty will apply. Lets set the facts straight. Yes, if you buys goods from off shore and you have a warranty issue you can not expect the local wholesaler to help you out. Gotta take the good with the bad.

But the good far out ways the bad.

By the way if you buy goods from overseas there is still a warranty. You just have too stump up and ship the item back offshore whe it came from. Yes it's a hassle but even if you have bad luck and have to send stuff back you are still way better off. In my experience here in New Zealand the dealers run you around in circles trying to find any excuse to not honor a warranty claim. The yanks for example will give you the benefit of the doubt and look after you.

haydes55

15th August 2013, 22:05

I'm in aussie at the moment. A local mag here is advertising a beginner pack. $499 gets you gloves ($80 at least in nz), a helmet ($299 at least in nz) a $200 textile jacket boots ($150ish in NZ) and kevlar jeans (mine cost close to $300).

It would be cheaper for a new rider in NZ to fly to aussie, buy new gear then fly back.... what sort of stupid mark up are NZ dealers making?

Gremlin

15th August 2013, 23:14

.... what sort of stupid mark up are NZ dealers making?
Actually, I doubt the dealers are making much at all.

To reverse the trend, I've landed a Nolan N104 from Europe earlier this week. RRP is $599 here I believe, some models at 'Treads (handy for online comparison) are around $550. My cost was $515.35. If it had been picked up for GST, that alone would have equalled the price here, and customs also charges processing fees, so would have been more expensive by a decent margin.

I would have preferred to purchase my helmet here, as I've done with all my others, however, the colour wasn't available here, and I had a dealer speak to the distributor to double check, and no, it wasn't going to be brought in.

Berries

15th August 2013, 23:19

I would have preferred to purchase my helmet here, as I've done with all my others, however, the colour wasn't available here, and I had a dealer speak to the distributor to double check, and no, it wasn't going to be brought in.
Yes, there is not much call for matt pink.

Gremlin

15th August 2013, 23:24

Yes, there is not much call for matt pink.
:lol: Most would put fluro yellow in the same category, but I wanted it... (it is fricken bright in gloomy light)

haydes55

15th August 2013, 23:42

Robert Taylor

16th August 2013, 08:10

I cant get a helmet in NZ for $499 let alone helmet, boots, gloves, kevlar jeans and jacket. Next time I buy gear I'm getting a free holiday to aussie for cheaper. NZ is screwing its self out of sales. My helmet was over $600 alone. I can buy the exact helmet ex usa for $170 landed ... in my opinion fuck the NZ importers. I'm not made of money. I can't afford your salary on top of my living expenses.

Thanks for the generalised comment. Im one of those importers and I can assure you my prices are mostly competitive and we back the product up to the hilt. Incidentally Im not becoming wealthy out of it either. A couple of ordinary everyday kiwis ( just like you ) depend on the ongoing viability of my business so that they can put food on their tables. And the money that I do make gets recirculated back into the local economy, where it will do the most good.

When the US dollar strengthens somewhat in the future ( and remember not everything is purchased in greenbacks ) you may like to spread your vile at them.

haydes55

16th August 2013, 08:34

Thanks for the generalised comment. Im one of those importers and I can assure you my prices are mostly competitive and we back the product up to the hilt. Incidentally Im not becoming wealthy out of it either. A couple of ordinary everyday kiwis ( just like you ) depend on the ongoing viability of my business so that they can put food on their tables. And the money that I do make gets recirculated back into the local economy, where it will do the most good.

When the US dollar strengthens somewhat in the future ( and remember not everything is purchased in greenbacks ) you may like to spread your vile at them.

Why don't our importers fly over to aussie, buy gear there and fly back with the gear as carry on luggage? They could sell it for the same prices they are now and get a free trip to aussie. My kevlar jeans and boots cost me over $499 (would be about 400aussie$) alone.

Robert Taylor

16th August 2013, 09:11

pritch

16th August 2013, 10:21

Absolutely ( and this is also sarcasm ) Buy EVERYTHING internationally including milk and foodstuffs. That way no-one will have a job in NZ

Seems to be the way. The Huntly power station buys coal from China so staff at the Huntly mine are being laid off.

Geeen

16th August 2013, 11:18

Why don't our importers fly over to aussie, buy gear there and fly back with the gear as carry on luggage? They could sell it for the same prices they are now and get a free trip to aussie. My kevlar jeans and boots cost me over $499 (would be about 400aussie$) alone.

Because if they did that and the Manufacturer found out about it the would most likely loose their right to distribute that product. Much the same reason there are companies like Nordorst cables that will pull their product from a retailer who "poaches" customers from other countries local retailers.
The best way I have heard the NZ market described is the TOTAL sales for iPads in NZ for a YEAR is equivalent to ONE DAYS sales in New York. That doesn't give NZ distributors the same clout as US distributors for example.

Morcs

16th August 2013, 11:35

what sort of stupid mark up are NZ dealers making?

Not a lot tbh. By the time a customer screws you for a good price there is actually bugger all, even in a $1000+ helmet.

If you knew the margins of, say Repco, had on all their shit, you would cut the motorcycle industry some slack.

Morcs

16th August 2013, 11:40

Because if they did that and the Manufacturer found out about it the would most likely loose their right to distribute that product. Much the same reason there are companies like Nordorst cables that will pull their product from a retailer who "poaches" customers from other countries local retailers.
The best way I have heard the NZ market described is the TOTAL sales for iPads in NZ for a YEAR is equivalent to ONE DAYS sales in New York. That doesn't give NZ distributors the same clout as US distributors for example.

Exactly. In the grand scheme of things for the massive companies, little old new zealand really isnt very important to them at all. Because we will buy lesser bulk quantities, probably dont get the best price breaks either. They wouldnt notice if we disappeared, and all these kiwis need to realise that they live in this little country with a small economy.

98tls

16th August 2013, 19:13

Been there, done that. Call it luck if you will but I had the ingrained instinct and just enough road to swerve and accellerate past them.

Also, my wife has me a car on her side of the road overtaking on a tight blind right-hander. Again, the ingrained instinct was present and the verge was used resulting in no accident at all.

Sometimes I wonder why you guys that believe an accident to be inevitable ride at all. Do you get off on the adrenalin?

Bullshit you have,she was riding along on her little GN250 and the guy swerved straight into her,you/me/her or anyone else couldnt have avoided the guy,the serious crash unit concluded she had no time at all to react.Thankfully she was left brain dead and didnt suffer.Who said i believe an accident is inevitable?Ive had a few in my time some my own fault and a couple there was fuck all i could do about but i got lucky, dont be spouting tripe about all accidents being avoidable :laugh:Sometimes shit happens and ingrained instinct blah blah wont help.

nzspokes

16th August 2013, 19:38

Bullshit you have,she was riding along on her little GN250 and the guy swerved straight into her,you/me/her or anyone else couldnt have avoided the guy,the serious crash unit concluded she had no time at all to react.Thankfully she was left brain dead and didnt suffer.Who said i believe an accident is inevitable?Ive had a few in my time some my own fault and a couple there was fuck all i could do about but i got lucky, dont be spouting tripe about all accidents being avoidable :laugh:Sometimes shit happens and ingrained instinct blah blah wont help.

Agreed. Having had a recent issue myself sometimes its all to fast. And you can end up with nowhere to go.

And good luck with SCU.....

swbarnett

16th August 2013, 22:46

Bullshit you have,she was riding along on her little GN250 and the guy swerved straight into her,you/me/her or anyone else couldnt have avoided the guy,the serious crash unit concluded she had no time at all to react.
No, I can't say that my incident was exactly the same. Perhaps the difference is that I had a larger capacity bike and was better able to power away.

Who said i believe an accident is inevitable?
I stand corrected. I can't remember exactly what it was but something you said seemed to imply this. This is the peoblem with the written word. Too open to interpretatiion.

Sometimes shit happens and ingrained instinct blah blah wont help.
Agreed. Unlike katman I don't believe that EVERY accident is avoidable given the circumstances at the time. I was just trying to say (and perhaps not being very clear about it) that it is not inevitable that every rider will suffer a major accident in their riding career.

pete-blen

17th August 2013, 10:33

The best way I have heard the NZ market described is the TOTAL sales for iPads in NZ for a YEAR is equivalent to ONE DAYS sales in New York. That doesn't give NZ distributors the same clout as US distributors for example.

I was talking with a BOC gasses rep... He said BOC NZ asked Kobie wire in Japan for a better prise on mig wire as we buy
X tonnage a year... There reply was.. You don't even use a days production from one of our plants....
We are small.. very small..

Ocean1

17th August 2013, 10:40

I was talking with a BOC gasses rep... He said BOC NZ asked Kobie wire in Japan for a better prise on mig wire as we buy
X tonnage a year... There reply was.. You don't even use a days production from one of our plants....
We are small.. very small..

This from one of the largest abusers of a monopolistic position in the country.

There's more to that story, too. But having been reamed by BOC for all of my working life I'm simply pleased that they've finally started to get their comeuppance.

Arseholes.

Robert Taylor

17th August 2013, 19:01

This from one of the largest abusers of a monopolistic position in the country.

There's more to that story, too. But having been reamed by BOC for all of my working life I'm simply pleased that they've finally started to get their comeuppance.

Arseholes.

Indeed, the arrogance of BOC is breathtaking

Katman

18th August 2013, 13:17

Agreed. Unlike katman I don't believe that EVERY accident is avoidable given the circumstances at the time.

Care to point out where I've ever said EVERY accident is avoidable?

There is a distinct difference between 'the vast majority' and 'every'.

swbarnett

18th August 2013, 14:10

Care to point out where I've ever said EVERY accident is avoidable?
I think you're right. It would be more accurate to say it was implied unintentionally.

mossy1200

18th August 2013, 14:29

original op robo-twigy must have gone overseas to try the helmets on as he has had one post only. His thread lives on though

TLDV8

22nd August 2013, 13:20

Robert Taylor

23rd August 2013, 19:23

I just remembered this thread and the people who continuously whine about about being hard done by those who do not support local businesses.
As said in this thread before I try to support the motorcycle system here as I did in New Zealand when I can but it makes you wonder some times.
Like the DR650SE I brought new in 2008 for the equivalent of around NZ$10000 from the local dealer (NT Cycles)
I needed a replacement clutch shaft bearing for the DR,you got it AU$57 from MR Cycles in the US,over AU$94 from my local NSW Suzuki dealer + freight.
Of course I did the right thing and will buy it locally after I drive 40 kms there and back to pay a deposit for the pleasure of it. :lol:

Yes I still need to buy a replacement for the ($AU$470 to the door from the US in 08) Arai XD3 after I save up some $800 to buy local.
When is a $10 helmet for a $10 head actually a $5 helmet with a major mark up,easy if its not in the USA,every other country.
Even safety can not escape greedy profiteering it seems.

Oh really?

How can it be fair and equitable that private purchases offshore very often attract no clearance and gst charges? When through normal retail / high street chains gst is ALWAYS collected? Local businesses that employ local people and disperse their ''evil'' profits back into the local economy. Unlike your mates in North Mexico. Its little wonder that Governments both sides of the Tasman and in the UK are looking seriously at righting this wrong. And god only knows that after 6 years of on again off again Kevin Ruddiculous the Aussie economy is in such a mess they need the revenue they have been failing to collect fully via gst

We had in our showroom a line of top shelf helmets, recommended retail 15% over dealer cost, and ( inevitably ) that's before you get hit for a deal . Before you make accusations about ''greedy profiteering'' it would be a good idea to be in command of the facts

Id also like you to be amongst the first to complain on this forum when in the future US sourced product soars in price, as their dollar regains strength

swbarnett

24th August 2013, 06:59

How can it be fair and equitable that private purchases offshore very often attract no clearance and gst charges? When through normal retail / high street chains gst is ALWAYS collected?
While I totally agree with this and would not be against it if they do add GST to ALL imports (apart from a general objection to all GST*), the fact remains that even with GST and customs charges often buying from an overseas web site still works out significantly cheaper.

*Any tax over and above income and company tax just increases the administration cost; the only affect is that the true tax level is well hidden.

nzspokes

24th August 2013, 07:18

While I totally agree with this and would not be against it if they do add GST to ALL imports (apart from a general objection to all GST*), the fact remains that even with GST and customs charges often buying from an overseas web site still works out significantly cheaper.

*Any tax over and above income and company tax just increases the administration cost; the only affect is that the true tax level is well hidden.

As IRD have said many times this will cost more to administer than the income return. So pointless. And will cost the average punter.

Guess they will probably do it then..:facepalm:

Digitdion

24th August 2013, 08:59

While I totally agree with this and would not be against it if they do add GST to ALL imports (apart from a general objection to all GST*), the fact remains that even with GST and customs charges often buying from an overseas web site still works out significantly cheaper.

Here hear!

*Any tax over and above income and company tax just increases the administration cost; the only affect is that the true tax level is well hidden.

Totally agree. What's the point of collecting Gst on items under the current threshold and it ending upo costing the govt more. Retailers have to stop moaning about Internet shopping and actually realize its there friend. There are opportunities for the savvy retailer out there.

Ocean1

24th August 2013, 09:22

How can it be fair and equitable that private purchases offshore very often attract no clearance and gst charges?

It's been said before, though Robert, nobody's worried about 15%, or even 30%.

It's the 100% and more differences between local and offshore supply that's killing the locals. And the only explanation that's ever been advanced is the size of our market. I don't buy that as an adequate explanation for the price differences we see, but I must admit I don't have a better one.

Robert Taylor

24th August 2013, 09:47

It's been said before, though Robert, nobody's worried about 15%, or even 30%.

It's the 100% and more differences between local and offshore supply that's killing the locals. And the only explanation that's ever been advanced is the size of our market. I don't buy that as an adequate explanation for the price differences we see, but I must admit I don't have a better one.

Absolutely yes , but it would be one small step. There are many of us that have adjusted to the reality, in any event. But we also have to remember that a weak $US is distorting the whole picture, allied with so many US companies eager to do business from their basket case economy that they are prepared to prostitute themselves to incredibly low nutcase margins. In some case 2-3%, and that I can substaniate. From that standpoint the uninformed amongst us ( and those that don't want to see ) think that everyone here are making huge margins. Largely this is not so.

Robert Taylor

24th August 2013, 09:55

As IRD have said many times this will cost more to administer than the income return. So pointless. And will cost the average punter.

Guess they will probably do it then..:facepalm:

I don't accept that argument, from an empire that like many Government departments wont accept getting out of its comfort zone and finds the most expensive ways of dealing with problems. Its a matter of looking at it from a different angle and finding a low cost streamlined means of collecting it.

The current failure to do so is costing ''the average punter'' their job security and conspiring to keep real wage rates low.

Dodgy

24th August 2013, 10:51

Robert Taylor

24th August 2013, 17:28

Hi Robert.

Of course, weak US dollar (or rather, our strong dollar against the US dollar) should be helping the NZ importer/distributor as well as the private importer.

One challenge we have in the current distribution network is the distributor. If they are rapacious, then that will not be helping the NZ retail scene. If that is the case, then the retailer should really be looking into establishing a relationship with a non NZ or AUS based distributor instead. Or, even look to a collapse of the retail network and become an importer/distributor/retailer and specialise.

How it often works is that say the US distributor of a European made product can get bulk buy discounts because of huge volume, that they will then sell at VERY low margin around the world, aided and abetted by their weak dollar. If the US dollars shifts against the European currency and ours remains much the same then all of a sudden buying out of ''North Mexico'' doesnt look so attractive.
The suspicion that distributors are making huge margins is in fact a very thin argument.

Digitdion

24th August 2013, 18:00

How it often works is that say the US distributor of a European made product can get bulk buy discounts because of huge volume, that they will then sell at VERY low margin around the world, aided and abetted by their weak dollar. If the US dollars shifts against the European currency and ours remains much the same then all of a sudden buying out of ''North Mexico'' doesnt look so attractive.
The suspicion that distributors are making huge margins is in fact a very thin argument.

Robert, at the end of the day whatever the profits that are being made by the distributors or retailers or, who ever, is not the issue for those of us who buy about of stuff from overseas.
We are concerned with the price we are being asked to pay for stuff here! Yes when there is another option to buy cheaper, for the average working class person the most commen choice will be price. That's weather we get charged for Gst or not.so we buy stuff from overseas.
No doubt in a perfect world we would all buy stuff from NZ at the higher price, but we all know the world ain't perfect.
In regard to the currency change. Yes a weaker nz dollar will mean less stuff being bought from oversea's. it would take quite a change to make it more expensive than buying here. Also when (or if) goods were dearer from the U.S than here. That does not necessary people like me would automatically buy those goods here. I suspect a lot of us would just not buy that upgraded part for the bike at all. So the local retailer has no gain either.
You also talk about North Mexico. Yes buying from the states is attractive.
"North Africa" or Europe is also quite attract.
We all realize that it's not all roses for retailers in the bike industry. But it ain't all roses for the average Joe Blow.

Robert Taylor

24th August 2013, 18:50

Robert, at the end of the day whatever the profits that are being made by the distributors or retailers or, who ever, is not the issue for those of us who buy about of stuff from overseas.
We are concerned with the price we are being asked to pay for stuff here! Yes when there is another option to buy cheaper, for the average working class person the most commen choice will be price. That's weather we get charged for Gst or not.so we buy stuff from overseas.
No doubt in a perfect world we would all buy stuff from NZ at the higher price, but we all know the world ain't perfect.
In regard to the currency change. Yes a weaker nz dollar will mean less stuff being bought from oversea's. it would take quite a change to make it more expensive than buying here. Also when (or if) goods were dearer from the U.S than here. That does not necessary people like me would automatically buy those goods here. I suspect a lot of us would just not buy that upgraded part for the bike at all. So the local retailer has no gain either.
You also talk about North Mexico. Yes buying from the states is attractive.
"North Africa" or Europe is also quite attract.
We all realize that it's not all roses for retailers in the bike industry. But it ain't all roses for the average Joe Blow.

Yes and I can totally see that side of the story. The problem is this whole situation just self perpetuates. If distributors / retailers here sell less ( and Im not only talking about the motorcycle industry, this is a HUGE issue ) then there is little ability for them to pay higher wages to the same people that will in turn buy more from overseas.

T.W.R

24th August 2013, 18:55

And when an overseas purchase goes belly up where does the purchaser usually head...off to the local distributor to try and remedy the screw-up :facepalm:

mossy1200

24th August 2013, 19:26

The OP still hasn't got back from his world tour to try on helmets from the four corners yet. His thread continues on without him.

AllanB

24th August 2013, 19:46

Weak, strong US NZ dollar - our dollar is and has been for some time on the international markets, it is what it is. It another life I was dealing with printed product from Hong Kong companies - the dollar was up and down but I tell you hand on heart either way we were doing very well thank you and when the dollar was to our advantage we were absolutely creaming the profit on product we proclaimed to be NZ made (all bar the printing was ....) by a NZ company.

And as soon as the dollar dipped a bit the GM would be wanking on to me to put the NZ wholesale and retail pricing up.

TLDV8

24th August 2013, 22:18

It's been said before, though Robert, nobody's worried about 15%, or even 30%.

The prices I quoted on the previous page were conveniently ignored which is little surprise.

How does it go,denial not just a river in Egypt.
Perhaps someone would like to phone Colemans and get a price on part # 09262-22028 which is a transmission bearing for a Suzuki DR650SE say a 2013 model (even though it should be the same part since 1996)
It should cost little more than NZ$65.

Ocean1

24th August 2013, 23:16

Perhaps someone would like to phone Colemans and get a price on part # 09262-22028 which is a transmission bearing for a Suzuki DR650SE say a 2013 model (even though it should be the same part since 1996)
It should cost little more than NZ$65.

I'd be prepared to bet that it's actually something very close to a 6206C3, which can be had from SKF or Saeco for about $24. I don't know why bike dealers even bother to stock most ex factory bearings, other than weird little end or linkage needle rollers or starter clutches. Even then I'd be checking the local supply...

TLDV8

24th August 2013, 23:27

I'd be prepared to bet that it's actually something very close to a 6206C3, which can be had from SKF or Saeco for about $24. I don't know why bike dealers even bother to stock most ex factory bearings, other than weird little end or linkage needle rollers or starter clutches. Even then I'd be checking the local supply...

This particular ball bearing has a roll pin in the side of it,similar to what might be found in some two stokes to stop it rotating.
That is the added expense but yes could have used a off the shelf (no pin) bearing.
Maybe RT could have got it for me trade cost 40% off.
To late I payed the $94 local price so the dealer can eat steak.

Edit.
I see you have a Buell,I priced a new Lightning in 2008,AU$19500 on the road in Darwin,looking on Trade Me showed the same bike on the road in New Zealand was some AU$3000 less,whats a little mark up,you have to eat.

Kickaha

25th August 2013, 08:33

This particular ball bearing has a roll pin in the side of it,similar to what might be found in some two stokes to stop it rotating.
That is the added expense but yes could have used a off the shelf (no pin) bearing.
We did that for some crank bearings for a GT550 Suzuki a decade or two ago but we paid for a spanky drill bit to drill and fit the pin

Robert Taylor

25th August 2013, 08:36

This particular ball bearing has a roll pin in the side of it,similar to what might be found in some two stokes to stop it rotating.
That is the added expense but yes could have used a off the shelf (no pin) bearing.
Maybe RT could have got it for me trade cost 40% off.
To late I payed the $94 local price so the dealer can eat steak.

Edit.
I see you have a Buell,I priced a new Lightning in 2008,AU$19500 on the road in Darwin,looking on Trade Me showed the same bike on the road in New Zealand was some AU$3000 less,whats a little mark up,you have to eat.

Clearly you should become a motorcycle dealer, you would make millions.

Ocean1

25th August 2013, 10:05

This particular ball bearing has a roll pin in the side of it,similar to what might be found in some two stokes to stop it rotating.

I did say most bearings. In my experience probably 90% of bearings in your average bike can be got from a bearing supplier for less than half of the price of the OE supplied one.

I see you have a Buell,I priced a new Lightning in 2008,AU$19500 on the road in Darwin,looking on Trade Me showed the same bike on the road in New Zealand was some AU$3000 less,whats a little mark up,you have to eat.

Interesting. Wonder hoe much of the difference was tax/compliance and how much was simply pulled out of the distributors hat. From a marketing point I actually think they were underpriced, they were never going to be mainstream, I'd have thought they would have been better making that an exclusive feature and charging accordingly. Instead they priced them actually well under the competition, and the market perception sorta equates that to lower quality.

TLDV8

25th August 2013, 11:52

Clearly you should become a motorcycle dealer, you would make millions.

I had no problem with profits in business through the 80's share market crash (engineering) with the usual ethic based on performance,met deadlines and a fair deal to the customers.
Not one complaint,not one job late with good returns.

I apply that same work ethic here in Australia (oil and gas) that in turn allows me to spend an average of over AU$20000 pa on motorcycle related expenditure.
Over AU$100000 over the last five years alone with perhaps 20% of that spent onshore.
When local services can match those of oversea's venders maybe they will get more of my hard earned money,attitude being a key ingredient.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/07RMZ450Fork/IMG_2043.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_2043.jpg"/></a>

nzspokes

25th August 2013, 11:55

I had no problem with profits in business through the 80's share market crash (engineering) with the usual ethic based on performance,met deadlines and a fair deal to the customers.
Not one complaint,not one job late with good returns.

I apply that same work ethic here in Australia (oil and gas) that in turn allows me to spend an average of over AU$20000 pa on motorcycle related expenditure.
Over AU$100000 over the last five years alone with perhaps 20% of that spent onshore.
When local services can match those of oversea's venders maybe they will get more of my hard earned money,attitude being a key ingredient.

Agreed. I spend most of my money here and only get hard to get or expensive items imported that make me a worth while saving.

My grandma had the same carpet.....

TLDV8

25th August 2013, 12:16

I did say most bearings. In my experience probably 90% of bearings in your average bike can be got from a bearing supplier for less than half of the price of the OE supplied one.

Interesting. Wonder hoe much of the difference was tax/compliance and how much was simply pulled out of the distributors hat. From a marketing point I actually think they were underpriced, they were never going to be mainstream, I'd have thought they would have been better making that an exclusive feature and charging accordingly. Instead they priced them actually well under the competition, and the market perception sorta equates that to lower quality.

Agreed as far as bearings.
I think ADR adds a lot to the price of bikes here,new Norton 961 US$20000,over $30000 here when they arrive.
Harley Davidson Road King Classic $310000 here under 20k in the USA and so on in 2012.
It can not be population sales percentage because even my DR650 was the equivalent of NZ$2000 more here new than in NZ at the time (2008)
When the exchange rate went over equal in the AU favour the RRP remained the same.
It is the same with helmets,the AS sticker adds some $300 to every Arai helmet regardless of the exchange rate (over the last five years)

It was little different with Suzuki parts,the cost of a TL1000 fairing (bare,one side,over $500) in NZ changed by some NZ$20 when the US/NZ exchange rate varied from 41 cents on the dollar to over 70 cents (03 to 07)
The retailers are never going to say 'we make hay while the sun shines are they.
Good rate more profit that in turn leads to selective shopping by the perspective customer,its not rocket science.

I think people are forgetting when both New Zealand and Australia had a lot of restrictions that protected the importers and distributors,a free market and the internet (communication) changed that.

It a nice day on the central coast so out to finish the Hypermotard for its new blue slip tomorrow,oddly I lost (in the shed) one of the flanged head 10 mm foot peg retaining bolts and got another at Frasers on Friday,cost $2 something,US cost (Pandora Ducati) a little over $2,maybe not all retailers are the same.
I will take all future sales to them.

Enjoy you Sunday NZer's :niceone:

Robert Taylor

25th August 2013, 12:52

Agreed as far as bearings.
I think ADR adds a lot to the price of bikes here,new Norton 961 US$20000,over $30000 here when they arrive.
Harley Davidson Road King Classic $310000 here under 20k in the USA and so on in 2012.
It can not be population sales percentage because even my DR650 was the equivalent of NZ$2000 more here new than in NZ at the time (2008)
When the exchange rate went over equal in the AU favour the RRP remained the same.
It is the same with helmets,the AS sticker adds some $300 to every Arai helmet regardless of the exchange rate (over the last five years)

It was little different with Suzuki parts,the cost of a TL1000 fairing (bare,one side,over $500) in NZ changed by some NZ$20 when the US/NZ exchange rate varied from 41 cents on the dollar to over 70 cents (03 to 07)
The retailers are never going to say 'we make hay while the sun shines are they.
Good rate more profit that in turn leads to selective shopping by the perspective customer,its not rocket science.

I think people are forgetting when both New Zealand and Australia had a lot of restrictions that protected the importers and distributors,a free market and the internet (communication) changed that.

It a nice day on the central coast so out to finish the Hypermotard for its new blue slip tomorrow,oddly I lost (in the shed) one of the flanged head 10 mm foot peg retaining bolts and got another at Frasers on Friday,cost $2 something,US cost (Pandora Ducati) a little over $2,maybe not all retailers are the same.
I will take all future sales to them.

Enjoy you Sunday NZer's :niceone:

My point remains, become a motorcycle dealer and show us all how its done! If matching prices to fierce overseas competitors who enjoy massive purchase discounts were simple then it would all be in place.

I wonder aloud what border charges and taxes are in place if you export to North Mexico?

And yes, not all retailers and distributors are the same.

onearmedbandit

25th August 2013, 13:08

And when an overseas purchase goes belly up where does the purchaser usually head...off to the local distributor to try and remedy the screw-up :facepalm:

Really? I've not heard of that before. No doubt it does happen but never in my experience or my friends experience of importing goods would we consider that ok. Heck I told the Arai agent down here not to give my lid a free service because I bought it overseas. They still insisted. Bought some stuff from them that day too.

Robert Taylor

25th August 2013, 13:22

T.W.R

25th August 2013, 13:38

Really? I've not heard of that before. No doubt it does happen but never in my experience or my friends experience of importing goods would we consider that ok. Heck I told the Arai agent down here not to give my lid a free service because I bought it overseas. They still insisted. Bought some stuff from them that day too.

Does happen :yes: seen it 1st hand with different items people had brought from off shore, they'd wonder in to the shop to see if we could help rectify a problem with what they'd got...usually it'd be a screw-up on their own behalf mainly from wrong model identification, they'd have a piece for their bike that was no good to them and they'd still have to purchase the right piece through the proper channels.
Others would come into the shop with apparel they'd brought from off shore that would be the wrong size to see if we'd trade on something we had in store or try and sell on their behalf

Even the ex put me in a position with a visor for her shoei...helmet had been brought on an overseas trip, wanted a dark tint visor for it and it was basically an extended wait whilst it was sourced from overseas, least I got a massive discount via the distributor; but it was still a hassle for all involved, it was an item they didn't stock here and for a helmet that isn't considered for sale here in NZ
Even some years ago my old leather jacket (Mars from Melbourne) needed a repair took it to who I thought was a reputable leather specialist, just to be told oh no we can't replace that you'll have to send it to the manufacturer; Contacted them and yeah sure we can do it you'll just have to post it over :shit: