Rider ticketed for riding a 250 not on the LAMs list?

[White trash]

Here's a queer one.

Had a young fella in work today enquiring why we were advertising at Hyosung GT250R as learner legal when they're not on the LAMs list. Turns out the poor bastard got ticketed in November for riding on his learners, on a non LAMs approved motorcycle while riding his GT250R. $200 fine, 20 demerits. He paid it and advertised his bike for sale thinking he wasn't allowed to ride it.

So how does he go about rectifying the problem?

[bogan]

The gears of bureaucracy move slowly and rarely go in reverse, good luck with that shit.

My guess would be to just ask some cops about it though.

[st00ji]

did he even try and contest it? im pretty sure LAMS says any bike 250cc and under is legal apart from some listed exceptions (2 strokes)

[White trash]

did he even try and contest it? im pretty sure LAMS says any bike 250cc and under is legal apart from some listed exceptions (2 strokes)

Correct. No he didn't, the poor bastard assumed the cop knew what he was talking about, seeing as how he was a cop and all......

[chasio]

did he even try and contest it? im pretty sure LAMS says any bike 250cc and under is legal apart from some listed exceptions (2 strokes)

Exactly. Here is the list. (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html) And a quote.




LAMS-approved motorcycles include:

- All motorcycles with engine capacities of 250cc and under, except for those on the LAMS-prohibited list above.

LAMS-prohibited motorcycle list (250cc or under)

Make Model CC
Aprilia RS250 (all models and variants) 250
Honda NSR250 (all models and variants) 250
Kawasaki KR1 (all models and variants including KR250) 250
Suzuki RGV250 (all models and variants) 250
Yamaha TZR250 (all models and variants) 250

[jellywrestler]

The gears of bureaucracy move slowly and rarely go in reverse, good luck with that shit.

My guess would be to just ask some cops about it though.

it did for David Bain so there's hope here

[fridayflash]

shit thats a bit of a bum rap, im guessin its too late to research the ticket and contest it after the fact?

[Smifffy]

I guess the cop just figured his bike looked the horn and was beyond the cop's own skill to handle.

Not having seen the ticket, i would hope that given the alleged offence, the cop will have to have written make/model info down. 1st step would be to contact them and challenge the ticket.
http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/driving-and-road-safety/infringement-notices-and-fees/contact

Or else write them back and ask to have it heard in court. Any luck the Judge will laugh the copper out of the building and award costs.

It should all be explained on the back of the ticket - NZ is kinda good like that - one of the last vestiges of democracy we haven't sold out.

[st00ji]

Correct. No he didn't, the poor bastard assumed the cop knew what he was talking about, seeing as how he was a cop and all......

well it wasnt a total waste then - he learned a valuable lesson

[White trash]

I guess the cop just figured his bike looked the horn and was beyond the cop's own skill to handle.

Not having seen the ticket, i would hope that given the alleged offence, the cop will have to have written make/model info down. 1st step would be to contact them and challenge the ticket.
http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/driving-and-road-safety/infringement-notices-and-fees/contact

Or else write them back and ask to have it heard in court. Any luck the Judge will laugh the copper out of the building and award costs.

It should all be explained on the back of the ticket - NZ is kinda good like that - one of the last vestiges of democracy we haven't sold out.

It transpires the young fella's still got the original ticket, clever boy :)

This'll be interesting indeed. I'll keep y'all posted as to how he gets on.

[Coldrider]

So the GCSB isn't spying on the SIS, which is the police.

[Laava]

Good luck to the young un. Should be a piece of piss.

[Coldrider]

So has this fella been charged and admitted guilt to the charge?

[yod]

are you sure he wasn't just ticketed for riding a Hyobag PoS??

sorry...sorry...sorry...couldn't resist

[Gremlin]

I would presume by now he's paid the ticket etc.

In that situation, he's admitted fault, and I'm not sure if you can then turn around and say, well, actually, I want to fight it?

[Akzle]

paying the donut fund, based on an infringement notice, is an admission of guilt. (mens rea).
Fven if he didnt do anything wrong. He admitted he did.
Yay! Justice!

[Str8 Jacket]

I would presume by now he's paid the ticket etc.

In that situation, he's admitted fault, and I'm not sure if you can then turn around and say, well, actually, I want to fight it?

Yep, I spent quite a few years working for MoJ fines dept and once you've paid the fine, you've admitted guilt. Not sire if this is still the case but a complaint to the Police may get the message across to the cop that fined him..... (maybe)

[awayatc]

so he admitted riding a legal bike............

where is the part where he admiited being guilty....?

guilty of what......?

[Str8 Jacket]

so he admitted riding a legal bike............

where is the part where he admiited being guilty....?

guilty of what......?

Good point, very good point. However when one gets a ticket I am pretty sure it says something along the lines of by paying this fine you admit guilt (but in fancy english) so he admitted a non-crime. I would complain via the appropriate police complaints process and see what happens....

[White trash]

I would presume by now he's paid the ticket etc.

In that situation, he's admitted fault, and I'm not sure if you can then turn around and say, well, actually, I want to fight it?

Yeah but surely he could argue somewhere that he paid the ticket as he assumed the cop knew the law, only to find with later advice that no law had been broken?

[st00ji]

Good point, very good point. However when one gets a ticket I am pretty sure it says something along the lines of by paying this fine you admit guilt (but in fancy english) so he admitted a non-crime. I would complain via the appropriate police complaints process and see what happens....

trouble is the crime he will have admitted to (ie what he was actually fined for) will be 'breaching licence conditions' or similar. not 'rode a 250 hyosung on learners'

its definitely worth a try though, if only (as mentioned above) to try and educate the knob end thats handing out bogus tickets.

[Akzle]

trouble is the crime he will have admitted to (ie what he was actually fined for) will be 'breaching licence conditions' or similar. not 'rode a 250 hyosung on learners'

its definitely worth a try though, if only (as mentioned above) to try and educate the knob end thats handing out bogus tickets.

haha! Theyre mostly knobends, and all their notices are bogus...
Unless you voluntarily accept/CONsent...
Bwahahaha.

[Akzle]

Yeah but surely he could argue somewhere that he paid the ticket as he assumed the cop knew the law, only to find with later advice that no law had been broken?

you illegally spied on who?
They mark out the pitch, they move the goalposts as they see fit. And the referee is always right.
Welcome to dictatormocracy.

[Mo NZ]

I would love to actually hear from this bloke. This is all hearsay and may be total crap.
If the bike has been modified in any " performance " way it is not a LAMS anymore, as most performance mods put it over the power to weight ratio.
"It is your responsibility to make sure that you only ride an approved motorcycle as produced by the manufacturer without any modifications to increase its power-to-weight ratio." A higher performance exhaust system for instance.

If it is legit he should go to his local CLAW and show then the ticket and paperwork concerning the bike and the receipt for payment if the fine.
They can assist him ( without payment ) on having a hearing and for the matter to be struck out and any payments refunded.

[Road kill]

Yeah but surely he could argue somewhere that he paid the ticket as he assumed the cop knew the law, only to find with later advice that no law had been broken?

That's exactly what he should do,but he would need to get a lawyer to write a nice letter for him.

It will of course cost him for the lawyers service but at lest he will not have the ticket on his record.

It's been done many times before.

[Rhys]

I had a ticket refunded , a very nice phone call and a letter apologizing for their error, took about 8 months 9 letters (including our MP) countless phone calls a trip to the courts to arrange a hearing and a phone call from the media, only took two days from the news papers call to get resolved :motu:

The bustards will try to avoid doing anything, give you department after department to ring /write to.
Don't piss around request a court hearing, the police will probably not even turn up !

Good luck

[Glowerss]

I would love to actually hear from this bloke. This is all hearsay and may be total crap.
If the bike has been modified in any " performance " way it is not a LAMS anymore, as most performance mods put it over the power to weight ratio.
"It is your responsibility to make sure that you only ride an approved motorcycle as produced by the manufacturer without any modifications to increase its power-to-weight ratio." A higher performance exhaust system for instance.

If it is legit he should go to his local CLAW and show then the ticket and paperwork concerning the bike and the receipt for payment if the fine.
They can assist him ( without payment ) on having a hearing and for the matter to be struck out and any payments refunded.

You're wrong on quite a few levels.

Firstly no exhaust system on a hyodung 250 is going to put it anywhere near the 150kw/tonne mark. They work out to be 81 kw/tonne, which is fully half of the allowed amount.

Furthermore, you'd have to prove that the aftermarket exhaust actually improved the power to weight ratio (assuming the coppa can even spot an aftermarket exhaust. Given that he thought the hyodung wasn't LAMS approved, doubtful.

Also, if you'll check here http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html

It specificially says "The following list of motorcycles with engine capacities between 251cc and 660cc - these motorcycles must be in standard form as produced by the manufacturer. They cannot be modified in any way to increase the power-to-weight ratio."

It does NOT say anything about, say, an exhaust on a POS 250.

So basically, if the poor bastard got ticketed for riding outside his license conditions on a 250 hyobag, he has full rights to complain.

[jafar]

Take it to your local MP, amazing how fast they move when the MP & his people get involved.

Once a ticket has been paid it is a closed case as far as the courts are concerned, getting it reopened is going to take the MP & some time.

[neckford]

let them do all the work .That is the sort of thing they live for.

[Eyegasm]

let them do all the work .That is the sort of thing they live for.

+1 for this idea

[iranana]

The LAMs list is ridiculous and it's even more ridiculous a cop ticketed him on a Hyosung 250. Either the cop didn't know jack shit about bikes, or he was just trying to rack up his quota and trick a poor learner. The whole 250 two stroke thing is pretty stupid too. Sure, they're quick, but there's some questionable bikes on the list. A Yamaha RD400 can be a pretty scary bike when in stock form, and when combined with 70s handling would make a highly dangerous learner machine. They're not particularly common though.

[neels]

Give the police complaints people a call, they can be surprisingly helpful, particularly if you approach it from the point of view of correcting an error rather than wanting someones head on a plate.

Make sure you record date, time and the name of who you talk to so if you don't hear anything back you can follow it up.

If that doesn't get results then you've got a reason and some background to get your media of choice involved to accelerate the process of sorting it.

[The Pastor]

I would presume by now he's paid the ticket etc.

In that situation, he's admitted fault, and I'm not sure if you can then turn around and say, well, actually, I want to fight it?

Of course you can you muppet.

Even if you've paid, if they have ticketed you for a non offecnce you can ask for your money back! You can't be guilty if there has been no crime/offense!

[imdying]

Shit you might not know: http://www.police.govt.nz/faq/questions-by-category/ticketsinfringements

[Akzle]

Of course you can you muppet.

Even if you've paid, if they have ticketed you for a non offecnce you can ask for your money back! You can't be guilty if there has been no crime/offense!

err. actually. you can. infact so many people get ticketed for non-crime it isn't funny. but the dumb cunts keep paying, so, you see, the jews get paid, and the system goes on.

[Erelyes]

paying the donut fund, based on an infringement notice, is an admission of guilt. (mens rea).

Let me get this straight, as soon as he's shown 'mens rea' he's shafted? Sounds kinky

[Akzle]

Let me get this straight, as soon as he's shown 'mens rea' he's shafted? Sounds kinky

it is.

and yes. that's pretty much how it works.

you can stab a cunt to death, if you dont have a guilty mind, (don't plea, don't say sorry, have some kind of claim of right) you're not guilty of a crime.

neat system huh?

[MarkH]

Here's a queer one.

Had a young fella in work today enquiring why we were advertising at Hyosung GT250R as learner legal when they're not on the LAMs list. Turns out the poor bastard got ticketed in November for riding on his learners, on a non LAMs approved motorcycle while riding his GT250R. $200 fine, 20 demerits. He paid it and advertised his bike for sale thinking he wasn't allowed to ride it.

So how does he go about rectifying the problem?

Not trying to be mean to this ripped-off lad but this immediately comes to mind:
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid"

Step 1.
If you like to ride motorcycles then take the trouble to understand the laws concerning riding motorcycles.
In this case it would have helped immensely if he understood the LAMS regulations better than the officer.

Step 2.
When a officer is ticketing you for riding a non-LAMS bike then question why he thinks it isn't LAMS approved.

Step 3.
If you get the ticket anyway then write in a nice letter challenging the allegation rather than paying it.
Challenge it in court if necessary - don't roll over and take BS like that!


So now the lad has gone and screwed up all 3 steps, I'd go with the advice to contact Fair Go - that 1 stupid cop is making the non-retarded cops look bad!

[Akzle]

the non-retarded cops look bad!

where do they hide them??

[MarkH]

where do they hide them??

I've come across cops that are decent blokes & fairly intelligent and others who aren't.
In any group you will get quite a variety, with police you may think that you wouldn't find any that are too thick to understand the law - but you would be wrong there.

Maybe we could ask Scumdog if he has noticed that some of his work mates are fuckin' idiots?

[Akzle]

with police you may think that you wouldn't find any that are too thick to understand the law - but you would be wrong there.


are you new here or what?

I expect the average cop to have the average iq and emotional ability of the bullied 10 year old girl they probably were.

And not to know a damn thing about 'law' asides from which infringement pad to write on. Rightly or not. Usually not.

[Mushu]

Any news on what the guy concerned is doing about this? I'd like to know who he does choose to contact and what he actually has to do to get his money back and points restored (if he can at all).


The whole thing is his own fault though, a cop tried to do me for the same offense while riding my DR650 claiming that his ignorance of the list was grounds to fine me, but I pushed him to ask other cops to confirm it wasn't on the LAMS list because I knew for a fact it was and eventually he let it go, jokes on him though, with my exhaust it's technically not LAMS compliant.

[scumdog]

are you new here or what?

I expect the average cop to have the average iq and emotional ability of the bullied 10 year old girl they probably were.

And not to know a damn thing about 'law' asides from which infringement pad to write on. Rightly or not. Usually not.


He was on KB when you were still shitting yellow in three-cornered pants sonny...<_<

[scumdog]

are you new here or what?

I expect the average cop to have the average iq and emotional ability of the bullied 10 year old girl they probably were.

And not to know a damn thing about 'law' asides from which infringement pad to write on. Rightly or not. Usually not.

Expecting a bit much - considering the people they have to deal with...:rolleyes:

[scumdog]

it is.

and yes. that's pretty much how it works.

you can stab a cunt to death, if you dont have a guilty mind, (don't plea, don't say sorry, have some kind of claim of right) you're not guilty of a crime.

neat system huh?

Give it a go hot-shot..

[swbarnett]

I expect the average cop to have the average iq and emotional ability of the bullied 10 year old girl they probably were.

And not to know a damn thing about 'law' asides from which infringement pad to write on. Rightly or not. Usually not.
That's the average cop (which I may or may not agree with). That still means that there'll be some below and above average.

[Akzle]

Any news on what the guy concerned is doing about this? I'd like to know who he does choose to contact and what he actually has to do to get his money back and points restored (if he can at all).


The whole thing is his own fault though, a cop tried to do me for the same offense while riding my DR650 claiming that his ignorance of the list was grounds to fine me, but I pushed him to ask other cops to confirm it wasn't on the LAMS list because I knew for a fact it was and eventually he let it go, jokes on him though, with my exhaust it's technically not LAMS compliant.

surely you didnt provide false oath to a crown policy enforcement officer?

:tsktsk:

[Akzle]

That's the average cop (which I may or may not agree with). That still means that there'll be some below and above average.

yes...
.

[Akzle]

Give it a go hot-shot..

you need to learn the art of multi quote.


Theres a stack of hookers under my caravan you niggers havent done anything about...

[scumdog]

you need to learn the art of multi quote.


Theres a stack of hookers under my caravan you niggers havent done anything about...

Not MY hookers - so why should I worry???

[Mushu]

surely you didnt provide false oath to a crown policy enforcement officer?

:tsktsk:

Of course I did and given he was trying to fine me based on ignorance of the law, if I were called out on it I would claim ignorance and see if that gets me off (doubt it, but worth a try) I'm also planning on claiming ignorance if I ever get pulled up on the R6 - "sorry officer, I thought it was anything up 660cc, I'll go straight home, put it on trademe and buy something legal."

[Smifffy]

Theres a stack of hookers under my caravan you niggers havent done anything about...

You can only claim half the stack. The other half were planted by the man, man.

[Jsrich]

Of course I did and given he was trying to fine me based on ignorance of the law, if I were called out on it I would claim ignorance and see if that gets me off (doubt it, but worth a try) I'm also planning on claiming ignorance if I ever get pulled up on the R6 - "sorry officer, I thought it was anything up 660cc, I'll go straight home, put it on trademe and buy something legal."

You actually think this would work? :blink:

[MarkH]

You actually think this would work? :blink:

What I think would really work well would be to upgrade to a full license and ride whatever bike he likes.

[neels]

I did my time on a 250.

This is what's wrong with the younger generation, no patience and no understanding of the benefits of following due process, instead always looking for a shortcut.

[Mushu]

You actually think this would work? :blink:

Nope but I have given stupid excuses and gotten away with shit in the past, I was once busted racing an enduro bike in my RA65 and got off it by telling the cop I couldn't have been racing cos my clutch is fucked and proved it by showing him the clutch kit I had in the car. (Aftermarket, uprated clutch cos it was better for burnouts)


I did my time on a 250.

This is what's wrong with the younger generation, no patience and no understanding of the benefits of following due process, instead always looking for a shortcut.

I would have been happy with a 250 2 stroke under the old rules but since I'm not allowed it anyway I just bought the bike I wanted, seeing as I have owned it a year and ridden it daily for most of that and I'm still alive never damaged the bike or even been pulled up, I bought it when I decided I had the skill to ride it rather than an arbitrary piece of plastic that says I'm skilled enough to operate any bike which ends badly often, this thread is a prime example progression of a total motorcycle noob (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=132965)

[frisken]

God forbid the laws exist for your own safety? :)

[arcane12]

I did my time on a 250.

This is what's wrong with the younger generation, no patience and no understanding of the benefits of following due process, instead always looking for a shortcut.

And how long did you spend on that 250?

[neels]

I did my time on a 250.

This is what's wrong with the younger generation, no patience and no understanding of the benefits of following due process, instead always looking for a shortcut.

And how long did you spend on that 250?
In calendar terms, around 17 years :killingme Otherwise, the usual couple of years, riding an old 100 2 stroke and a 250.

[Mushu]

God forbid the laws exist for your own safety? :)

The laws exist to manage the safety of people too stupid to do it for themselves, I can decide for myself how to manage the risk and am happy to live with the consequences. (whether that be a crash or the legal consequences) also atleast half the people I know who ride either don't have a license at all or ride large capacity bikes on their learners.