The 50

[cotswold]

There seems to be a resurgence in the 50cc ranks so I thought I would post up how I am going about mine ( Johns ).

John Steer got hold of the ugliest Honda MTX50 you would ever wish to see, it was a rescued beach toy and was very neglected. John put an FXR front end in and also modified the original swinging arm to accept an FXR rear wheel.
The first trip to the track we found it was restricted in 5th and 6th gears, the culprit was traced to an electrical jobbie that was rotated by the gear change inside the case. It was a simple job to remove it and plug the hole. We just had to rotate the unit until it would rev out in all gears.
The next time at the track I entered F5 and finished a nice solid last as it is very slow, I did have race long battles with a Honda 100 foul stroke to keep me interested.
I have a mb100 on my shelf that is donating it's reed block and it's carb ( a nice 28mm pwk ) and I have gotten hold of a couple of MX pipes to try and cobble up a less restrictive exhaust.
I have just lucked across a spare engine and the cylinder looks to be ok ( it is 1mm over though ) but the crank needs a rebuild as the big end is shot.
I have plans to try make a Scitsu type frame ( lego bike for you Dave ) and have a contact in UK who is hopefully going to give me a bit of help with the dimensions.
Like all my plans it will probably never happen and I'll be the new Ivan, but you never know.

[cotswold]

This is the starting point

[F5 Dave]

I would have loved to have that when I was racing my MB50. It's all about the piston though. The MB had 1.5 mm rings that used the clean tips off if you revved them much past 11. What are these? I ran RD pistons but it wasn't a simple conversion.

[speedpro]

I ran RD pistons but it wasn't a simple conversion.

You ran "LONG" brand rods for a bit as well didn't you Dave???:whistle:

[F5 Dave]

Yeah they became 2 shorter ones

[cotswold]

Been around to the local 2 stroke tuning specialist this morning. I took my new cylinder as I thought it looked like it had been attacked with a porting tool already. lucky I did as the exhaust port is as wide as you would want to go, the transfers do need a little work as does the inlet. Gives me something to do. I am thinking of putting it on with some of the mods for next weekend as it is bound to be better than the standard one.
Is a 28mm pwk too big?

[mr bucketracer]

let the dyno wars begin (-: 28mm is the biggist you would want to go , my gt50 runs a 28mm carb and my old rd50 had a 25mm

[F5 Dave]

Actually I'm thinking of trying bigger one day. 28 should be ok, smaller might be better on slower revving engine

[speedpro]

Rob is making 30+hp with essentially a 24mm carb. I've just had a motor simulated at 29hp with a 28mm carb. Do it right and you probably will be fine with a smaller carb. The simulation for 29hp was tested with a 32mm carb and made no more power.

[cotswold]

The 28mm will have to stay as it's all I have . I may swap it out if it is a dud on the bike.

[F5 Dave]

I have a nice almost new flatslide 24mm Mikuni I'm going to list on TM one day when I get my act together. $50 would buy it.

[Gigglebutton]

Im using a 24 on my RG. Only 10hp but not peeky at all

[mr bucketracer]

Im using a 24 on my RG. Only 10hp but not peeky at allwhats the hp with nitro:devil2:

[cotswold]

Im using a 24 on my RG. Only 10hp but not peeky at all

I can only dream of 10hp

[cotswold]

The job for today was to measure where my ports are timing wise. The target was 80* ATDC for the exhaust and 118* ATDC for the transfers.
The cylinder had to be lifted to get 86 and 116, I used penny washers under the cylinder to achieve this.
The exhaust port needs raising and the cylinder needs a bit skimming off to get where I have been told I want to be.

[F5 Dave]

Ah, glad to see you have some conduit holding barrel down, first pic got me worried. I only run 196 ex on the 50 so don't get too carried away too soon.

[cotswold]

I would have loved to have that when I was racing my MB50. It's all about the piston though. The MB had 1.5 mm rings that used the clean tips off if you revved them much past 11. What are these? I ran RD pistons but it wasn't a simple conversion.

Ahhh, Hate it when people prophesy doom. Took the rings off the piston to do my port timings and I just went to put them back on to use this weekend and........:shit:

[Gigglebutton]

whats the hp with nitro:devil2:

13hp and heaps of torque at 9k on the Nos but would not rev higher. Now I have the Ignitech I can retard it and hopefully rev to 13. Fuck yeh :)

[Gigglebutton]

The job for today was to measure where my ports are timing wise. The target was 80* ATDC for the exhaust and 118* ATDC for the transfers.
The cylinder had to be lifted to get 86 and 116, I used penny washers under the cylinder to achieve this.
The exhaust port needs raising and the cylinder needs a bit skimming off to get where I have been told I want to be.

How thick are the washers. I may have some ali sheet around the sane thickness

[F5 Dave]

Ahhh, Hate it when people prophesy doom. Took the rings off the piston to do my port timings and I just went to put them back on to use this weekend and........:shit:
Yeah I played that game way too many times. They're a bit shit like that. Power would drop off ESP as I ran one ring. Research a piston to run.

[cotswold]

Yeah I played that game way too many times. They're a bit shit like that. Power would drop off ESP as I ran one ring. Research a piston to run.

I am at 1mm over on this one 40mm, the AM6 pistons start at 40.3, they have a 12mm pin, do you know if the Honda can take another over bore?
There seems to be plenty of bore left and the AM6 pistons are readily available, Prox do one. Athena do a 40mm and 12mm pin but you have to give a blood sample to get on their customer list. ( who asks for your IRD number? )

[F5 Dave]

not sure about wc 50 Honda, the air cooled one had heaps of meat. Prox should be good.

[speedpro]

The Honda 100 will lose ring tips as well but over 14,000rpm. The power would get peaky but more or less same peak power on the dyno.

[cotswold]

Job for today was to make up a spacer for the reed block as it was too long to fit, I spotted a bolt on one from Japan and copied it as best I could with hand tools, it all seems to fit ok in the modified cylinder but not in the standard one....so I will have to take it apart and open it out a bit. Was hoping to avoid that for now.

[cotswold]

Quick rant, I rocked up to mxspares as they sell prox pistons, I ask them if they can get me a piston for an aprilia, I had the correct part number, is that an MX bike? No why, because we only sell MX pistons, but it's a prox part number and you sell prox pistons, only for MX bikes. I left angry.

[Bert]

Try a Yamaha jog 50, minarelli 50 (read Yamaha & aprilia) share the same piston as the AM6 engine..
Come in 10 or 12mm pin.

[F5 Dave]

Quick rant, I rocked up to mxspares as they sell prox pistons, I ask them if they can get me a piston for an aprilia, I had the correct part number, is that an MX bike? No why, because we only sell MX pistons, but it's a prox part number and you sell prox pistons, only for MX bikes. I left angry.

Maybe its part of thier distributorship agreement that they can take the MX side of the sales. Maybe.

[cotswold]

Maybe its part of thier distributorship agreement that they can take the MX side of the sales. Maybe.

the voice of reason, you could well be right but I worked in a bike shop and we always tried to get whatever the customer wanted or at least offered an alternative. Pissed me off so much I bought one off shore and it will be cheaper even with postage.

[cotswold]

I spent a little time unbolting bits that were not required. Next will be to take a grinder to the bits that are not bolted on.
I have fitted the 28mm carb but need to buy in some smaller jets as it seems to be running very rich, the smallest I had was a 97.5. I had to use the original reed block which was a pain, the original cylinder requires a decent amount of porting to get the big block to fit. Those PWK's are a bit different to work with, not sure I like it.

[F5 Dave]

Well there will be a Mikuni on deck in a couple of days. Think I'm running a 145 in my PWK, but its all relative to the engine & doesn't mean too much, heck I was on 280s on my old Mikuni non PJ flatslide.

Often you run similar or larger jetting than the bike it came off as there is less suction.

Often it is easier to tack weld on the threaded part of a bigger cage or some 12mm plate to extend a tiny 1/2 reedblock (like the MBs had) to fit a 4 petal reed then just devcon the gaps [edit seen spacer above]

[cotswold]

Well there will be a Mikuni on deck in a couple of days. Think I'm running a 145 in my PWK, but its all relative to the engine & doesn't mean too much, heck I was on 280s on my old Mikuni non PJ flatslide.

Often you run similar or larger jetting than the bike it came off as there is less suction.

Often it is easier to tack weld on the threaded part of a bigger cage or some 12mm plate to extend a tiny 1/2 reedblock (like the MBs had) to fit a 4 petal reed then just devcon the gaps [edit seen spacer above]

I have that spare cylinder that I have opened up to take the bigger block and I had planned on fitting the whole lot but as mentioned earlier one of the rings were munted.
The original carb had an 80 main, thought I'd start around there.

I have a piston on it's way from blighty that may or may not be of any use to me but if I can make it work it will relieve a whole heap of issues.

[cotswold]

I bought a cheapish Aprilia RS50 piston to see if I could make it fit the Honda, I have quite a difference in piston height 2mm.

The Aprilia small end bearing is 15mm diameter and 16mm long whilst the Honda one is 17mm diameter and 14mm long. Measuring the inside of the piston where these sit they are as near as damn it the same and I reckon I can use the Honda small end in the Aprilia piston.

2 Questions

1: Will I be able to make the piston fit ?
2: Is there any reason I cannot use the Honda small end

[F5 Dave]

So the Apr piston is the one on the left & is taller? Pity. Peg positions should avoid boost port. Vivid them & push down bore if that close you need to check.

Are the rings similar thickness? Should be able to get more racy Aprilia pistons.

Confused by your measurements. Same pin OD? Doesn't make sense.

[cotswold]

So the Apr piston is the one on the left & is taller? Pity. Peg positions should avoid boost port. Vivid them & push down bore if that close you need to check.

Are the rings similar thickness? Should be able to get more racy Aprilia pistons.

Confused by your measurements. Same pin OD? Doesn't make sense.

The Wrist pin is the same size 12mm, but the Honda small end is much fatter at 17mm verses the Aprilia's 15mm which means the Aprilia one is too small for the rod.

The pins on the piston look pretty good for spacing just inverted if you see what I mean, I can't push it down the bore as it is .3 bigger meaning a re-bore will be required


I only bought this cheaper one as I am a tight ass and did not want to blow heaps on something I could not use.

[TZ350]

I bought a cheapish Aprilia RS50 piston to see if I could make it fit the Honda, I have quite a difference in piston height 2mm.

The Aprilia small end bearing is 15mm diameter and 16mm long whilst the Honda one is 17mm diameter and 14mm long. Measuring the inside of the piston where these sit they are as near as damn it the same and I reckon I can use the Honda small end in the Aprilia piston.

2 Questions

1: Will I be able to make the piston fit ?
2: Is there any reason I cannot use the Honda small end

I think:-

1: That there are no problems here, you just raise the cylinder another 2mm so the top (timing) edge of the Aprilia piston is in the same place as the Honda would have been. You may have to adjust the inlet timing edge on the Aprila piston but that is easy to do.

2: If the Honde L/E brg fits the rod and the Aprilia piston pin fits the Honda brg when its in the rod and the side clearance of the Honda L/E brg inside the Aprilia piston is only a mm or two or three, then I would expect that to work OK too.

[F5 Dave]

Just be aware that the Honda pistons angle at the small end in so clearance is more at the bottom than at the top. How much clearance is there total on ap piston?

[cotswold]

Ideally I need a wrist pin (or small end) bearing 12x17x16 I have found 12x17x15 and that will have to do

[F5 Dave]

Yeah washers in the piston are a drama, but found out the hard way that I needed them using RD piston as there was room for the bearing to climb the rollers to the edge of the rod. If you can't expose any rollers you will be sweet.

[cotswold]

http://www.barikit.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=257&Itemid=8&lang=en


May be useful to some of you. Found what I
wanted here.

[cotswold]

just made a spacer from donated metal ( thanks Daz ) to lift the cylinder up 1.2mm. This will get the port timing closer to what I am told I need. Should have it ready for next weekend.

[F5 Dave]

300 on the ex and 104 on the transfers else it won't be peaky enough:crazy:

[cotswold]

300 on the ex and 104 on the transfers else it won't be peaky enough:crazy:

:rolleyes: I was thinking more like 118 and 80 but if you think I should go for 300 :eek5:

[F5 Dave]

I always talk open periods, but yes a joke. Don't go too far. My 13k peak RG is 196 ex 129. I have run up to 202but it was a dead end.

[cotswold]

cant oval bore but matched this up to my port and the pipe I'm going to cobble up to it for the weekend

[cotswold]

thanks to the 2 boys down the line who sent me up some exhausts and Rob for another one that sacrificed its silencer and Mr Steer for welding up the bits I handed him (over a 5 hour period) the 50 now has a much lighter pipe, not sure how it will go but it sounds better if nothing else.

[F5 Dave]

Sounds better, lighter, -Heck if it looks better, to ask for more would be just greedy.

[cotswold]

pipe of frankenstein

[Yow Ling]

Its only 45cc and 4 stroke , would get some attention though


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGXo5HwIHk

[cotswold]

I have just got back from a top secret 2 stroke engine tuners in town. We fitted my spacer and as you would expect the deck height was in the negative. The head was machined to take the head inside the cylinder to the piston, we then set the squish to 0.54. Head gasket no longer wanted as we machined an "O" ring groove while we were at it, 47mm by 2mm viton. It's hopefully going on the Dyno in a week or so to see how we are going.

[cotswold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s4PA8VFpUlc

[cotswold]

Now I have a (hopefully) more powerfull engine I thought it had better look like a race bike, so I stole the bits off my F4 bike and dressed the 50 up a bit. The motor is now in one piece so will put it back together as
soon as I get time.

[TZ350]

Looking Good .....

[Buddha#81]

50's dont feature too much down here, but motorcycling canterbury run a training class at their meeting for anyone starting out but as a 10year old its a way of keeping off the streets :) Its a rs50 with a carb Yow Ling fitted and is pumping out a massive 6.5 hp.

[cotswold]

50's dont feature too much down here, but motorcycling canterbury run a training class at their meeting for anyone starting out but as a 10year old its a way of keeping off the streets :) Its a rs50 with a carb Yow Ling fitted and is pumping out a massive 6.5 hp.

That is a very good idea, other clubs should look at doing something similar.

My F4 is sat in one of those frames.

[cotswold]

I got the engine back in the frame and connected all the bits that make it go, put it in gear and off she went. Very pleased, it certainly has more compression than before. Maybe a trip to the dyno is in order to see how she stacks up against some of the competition.

[F5 Dave]

or more to find a decent ignition point & nearest jet. Be off here & you can decimate power esp on a fiddy.

[cotswold]

Gave our local 2t guru a hand with the beast tonight and as a treat at the end we threw the 50 up onto the Dyno, sparked her up and gave her a couple of runs and behold the magnificence of the Dyno chart.

A Dutch friend pointed out

"I think it is plenty of things to do whith this engine.
But first of all the pipe is not right"

"Yes it shows that what you have is not right.
If the pipe is all right it starts to pull at 9000 and go ballistic to 14000 revs."

Ballistic sounds good

[cotswold]

After the dyno run (thanks Rob) it was pointed out by many that my pipe is not working as it should ( no suprise there ).
I put up a post on a different forum and Frits Overmars came to my rescue with a formulae that should help improve things, he even corrected a mistake I made re the speed of sound, it's greater when hot gas is involved.
Here is the result.
I have a nice new ignition on it's way as well so hopefully I will see some improvement.

[F5 Dave]

so. . . why so little ex duration? (if that 183 is).


First thing one should do is estimate the revs you are safe to turn and if you are likely to get the performance you require, else change components till you can turn the revs you need. So its all about the piston & then what crank you run as a result.

183* will suit a trials bike or a learners roadbike. So what sort of revs do you want peak power to be at?

[cotswold]

so. . . why so little ex duration? (if that 183 is).


First thing one should do is estimate the revs you are safe to turn and if you are likely to get the performance you require, else change components till you can turn the revs you need. So its all about the piston & then what crank you run as a result.

183* will suit a trials bike or a learners roadbike. So what sort of revs do you want peak power to be at?

see thats why I put my stuff ups up, so they can be pointed out before it costs me any money, 183 is port timing not duration, i'll correct that over the weekend when my brain is working.

[husaberg]

this was posted a while back
http://www.underdogsracing.com/fospipe/
frits has also posted a pic of his 50pipe that has won the last 5 euro championships or something i have it somewhere.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=276973&d=1358853762

Tim, right now you may be more interested in ' All that you wanted to know about the Aprilia RS50'. Here are some numbers to play around with. Exhaust pipes don't come any simpler than this, but don't let that fool you; this pipe was good for eight championships. Just don't show it to the Poms; year after year they keep trying to beat those Dutch 50 cc bikes :D.
About the step in the exhaust duct: if there is a step and you remove it, you lose power. I think the main reason is that in removing the step you increase the duct volume. The Malossi cylinder I experimented with has no step at all, but as you can see in the pipe drawing, the exhaust duct is quite narrow. That works.

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, you mean 83 ATDC not 183 as that would give you -6* of exhaust duration. Frits's example above has a scant 31deg of blowdown which must mean they are doing some pretty extreme aux port sizes. On conventional single ex you would be crazy to talk those numbers. Unless perhaps these guys know something I don't. . .what's the chance of that though:laugh:

[cotswold]

Ahh, you mean 83 ATDC not 183 as that would give you -6* of exhaust duration. Frits's example above has a scant 31deg of blowdown which must mean they are doing some pretty extreme aux port sizes. On conventional single ex you would be crazy to talk those numbers. Unless perhaps these guys know something I don't. . .what's the chance of that though:laugh:

are you moolses daddy

[cotswold]

are you moolses daddy

86atdc so 188 duration? sounds about right, but I've been wrong all week and I think blowdown is 30 at the moment

[F5 Dave]

No if Max was my kid Cyps would have been involved as he's a cheeky little git when he was down here. Nah I like im but Hope my kids don't sass me like that.

[husaberg]

I see kids as a mirror to our own personality Dave, we can see the worst in the as wells as the best. did you sas your parents Dave?
did your parents ever say wait to you have kids............

[F5 Dave]

Certainly not. But there's two parents for every child. . . My 3yr old is running around like a lunatic with some ear defenders. That'll be her mothers side I bet:confused:

[husaberg]

http://obscureinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/Funny-Church-Signs-16.jpghttp://i42.tinypic.com/fk2q0z.jpg

[Henk]

No if Max was my kid Cyps would have been involved as he's a cheeky little git when he was down here. Nah I like im but Hope my kids don't sass me like that.

Still a cheeky little git.

[cotswold]

Well my ignition has turned up at last and I ripped open the packing with no small amount of excitement, then I saw the rotor and that feeling of happiness dislolved like a fiat in an English winter. To make things worse the backing plate is also incorrect.
A question to the wise and clever ones out there, is it possible to taper bore the 8mm hole out to fit the MTX crank and make a backing plate addaptor or do I have to send what I have back and wait for the correct bits.

[190mech]

Yes it is possible with careful machine work on both accounts!:niceone:

[F5 Dave]

Dear oh dear that is a cock up. Yes it is possible with caveats. I've done RM80 to fit Honda (or rather entrusted it to someone better than me on a lathe) as you can make the hole too big/deep real quick.


But (and its a big butt . . .see what I did there?) there should be a steel insert & that has to be big enough to take the new taper.

Backing plate should be simple enough but you will need a locating outside or inside step on the plate so you can locate the stator (a dodge is wrap a thin bit of card around the flywheel to get clearance every time you move the timing.

[mr bucketracer]

easy done but get the taper right but machineing a dummy bit of material . you can also put the keyway in useing the lath

[cotswold]

I sent the supplier an Email but just silence from their end. If this is what I have to work with, anyone want to make some xmas dollars by fixing this for me as I know my limitations on a lathe and this is way beyond them. I can send out my spare bottom end anywhere across the NI.

[Farmaken]

If no one closer to home can help you , I am happy to do the job.

[cotswold]

If no one closer to home can help you , I am happy to do the job.

I may take you up on that, thanks Ken

[cotswold]

Had the 50 at the track on the weekend and the first run was all good, heaps more go than before, I gave it to a lad to ride and it made 50 meters before popping and banging to a halt, I stuck in a new plug and off he went. When it came to race the same happened again. I stripped out the carb and it all looks clean and I checked the reed, so any idea's. I am thinking electrical but why would it run on a fresh plug?

[Henk]

Check the earth for your coil.
Mate had an RM250 years ago that would run when cold, then start banging and poping so much it would shred the Kevlar reeds with backfires. Turns out the earthing lug that was bolted up behind the iron bit of the coil that mounts to the frame was corroded, replaced that and it was all good. Took him moths to find and was only a problem when it got hot.

[koba]

Could be something else too, coincidence.

Try another Plug cap, could be that when replacing the plug you put it on just right for it to work but if slightly disturbed, such as by a running engine it stops working.

[TZ350]

Had the 50 at the track on the weekend and the first run was all good, heaps more go than before, I gave it to a lad to ride and it made 50 meters before popping and banging to a halt, I stuck in a new plug and off he went. When it came to race the same happened again. I stripped out the carb and it all looks clean and I checked the reed, so any idea's. I am thinking electrical but why would it run on a fresh plug?

Weak Spark. The voltage rise time my be compromised by any of the problems listed above and/or damaged capacitors by trying to spark with the plug cap off.

The back emf from the coil punches holes through the capacitors internal insulation and that reduces the energy that can be stored in them by reducing the voltage they can be charged up to before it bridges the little gaps in the insulation.

With a fresh plug there is not so much to bleed the electrical charge away and the gap ionizes but a used plug is sufficiently compromised for it to drag down a weak ignition.

Possibly?? :scratch:%$*&T*&(^%*(^ electrics.

[cotswold]

Here's a clip of how my shed should look


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upQ2YAaSzJM

[cotswold]

The shock on the 50 was all spring and no damping and being the cheapskate that I am looked under my bench and found this TZR250 one attatched to a swinging arm I had been given, it is the correct length but the top eye was too wide, under advise I attacked it with a disc cutter, trimmed the spacer back in the lathe and presto............it still wont fit due to the oil res fitting, so I will attack the frame and make it fit, even if it kills the frame, it will give me the nudge I need to start making one. PS merry Crimble one and all

[cotswold]

Took to the frame with the trusty dremmel and made that sucker fit. I wont know what to do with myself now I have adjustment on the spring and the damping, having the rear tyre on the tarseal will be a feeling I am keen to get used to.

[cotswold]

I think these photo's will show why my spark was a bit weak, the other question would be how did it ever run? :rolleyes:

I think the moral of this tale is if you make a "race" bike out of a beach toy you should 1st remove all the sand.

[koba]

I think these photo's will show why my spark was a bit weak, the other question would be how did it ever run? :rolleyes:

I think the moral of this tale is if you make a "race" bike out of a beach toy you should 1st remove all the sand.

Al least there are worse places to have sand lodged.

[F5 Dave]

What's the matter Stan. . .

[cotswold]

A big thanks to Ken for not only cutting my taper for the Pvl but also making up a base plate and setting the timing, when I got to the track all I had to do was re jet and she now picks up like a mad thing. Very pleased.
Once again thanks.

[cotswold]

Ken at work.............

[F5 Dave]

Great to see the 50 in action. Sounded great and went well from what I could see. Anyway let's talk numbers later on and we'll get it really spinning.

[Henk]

So why didn't you race on Sunday?

[cotswold]

So why didn't you race on Sunday?

Do you mean me or Dave ?

I had no wets so parked it in the van, then I saw Malcolms exploits in the big boys race and had 2nd thoughts, then I went home.

[koba]

Do you mean me or Dave ?

I had no wets so parked it in the van, then I saw Malcolms exploits in the big boys race and had 2nd thoughts, then I went home.

Shoulda stayed, it wasn't scary at all... :shifty:

[cotswold]

The frame is borrowed but I have a warped idea of building one like this so I can use the same set up on both bikes?
I was thinking of using either modified mx front end or importing Aprilia one and modifiing that?

[koba]

Don't do it!

That swing-arm must weigh more than twice what the frame does!

There must be better options, I'd rather race on a basic cantilever swing-arm created from old chair legs....

[F5 Dave]

I was thinking ohh frame looks great but what Honda had crappy sw on frame like that? Dawned on me I can't recognise an NF4 with a light disguise of early RS50 parts. Yeah I'd go for the chair legs too. Actually build a sw might not be that hard.

[cotswold]

This series is a full on developement class 2t. I have had a little help here and there from a couple of the guys as they are generaly open with what they are doing. They have just opened a web site

http://freetech50.com/index.php?t=en&p=home

At the moment information is available on Facebook but it may be worth keeping an eye on the new site.


Here are the regulations,

Technical rules:

Engine:
All types of naturally aspirated engines with a cylinder 50cc are allowed.
Fuel:
Gasoline sold only to the public roads !
Aspen Plus , E85 is permitted.
To the lubricating oil may be added to gasoline only .

Intake System:
Open
Inlet size:
Open
Fuel injection:
Allowed

Chassis:
All materials and shapes allowed
Wheel size 16 " , 17 " or 18 "





Limited Class:

Cylinders:
Max 1 cylinder.
Transmission:
Minimum 3 and maximum 6 gears.
Tires:
Only tires approved for road use are allowed.
Rain tires are not allowed!
Electronics:
Traction control is not allowed!
Suspension:
Active suspension is not allowed!
Numberplates:
Yellow background with black numbers!
+ A yellow field, at least 80x30mm on the back of the seat

Unlimited Class:

Everything is open.

NumberPlates:
Red background with white numbers !
+ A red field of at least 80x30mm on the back of the seat

[quallman1234]

Don't do it!

That swing-arm must weigh more than twice what the frame does!

There must be better options, I'd rather race on a basic cantilever swing-arm created from old chair legs....

Thats my old aprilla swingarm! haha!

[cotswold]

Just out of interest with what I have in the garage,

NF4 bare frame..................................... 7.2kg
RS50 Frame with triple trees......................12.5 (Quallmans)

RS50 Sw/arm, disc, caliper, sprocket...........9.5
TZR S/arm bare.......................................6.0 once carrier, sprocket, and brake added what would that come to


FXR frnt wheel, disc ...............................5.3
FXR rear wheel bare................................4.2

RS50 frnt wheel, disc................................6.5
RS50 rear wheel ......................................3.7


NSR50 motor a suprisingly fat ..........................15.0

[cotswold]

Raced today at Mt Wellington and I have plenty of work to do to make the 50 competitive. The mods I have done have shaved 1 second off my lap times so at least heading in the right direction. I noticed today that the new reeds I fitted ( Boysen power reeds ) have given a big boost to the mid range but seems to have strangled the top ( although it may just be that the mid range has improved so much that it seems to not rev so hard ) I need to do something with the foot pegs as they are grounding too easily. On the plus side where I was being lapped by the 2 fast 50's in a ten lap race this time I finished on the same lap in a 12 lapper. I had a DNS in the pre-lim race but tracked that down to a faulty kill switch and finished a distant 3rd in the other 2 races. All in all not too bad.
The f4 boys put on a show in A grade with the top 5 riders running in the magical 29s bracket

[cotswold]

Bloody bugger, my new ignition, reeds and carb rebuild have resulted in less HP, now it has 7 or 8, feeling a bit sad, still coming to GP but may just wave a flag.

[Henk]

Race you fag. I have less than eight HP and a bet for a beer with you.

[cotswold]

Race you fag. I have less than eight HP and a bet for a beer with you.

Me and you fighting it out for last should be quite a spectacle, consider it brung.

[andrew a]

I'm planning to join the fight for last place in F5. Bring it along. I don't know what power any of my bikes have and that's OK I do enjoy riding them. The 50 tends to lie down on the track more than I would like! The newly installed crappy FXR shock may help. Probably wont.
See you there all going well.

[rodg]

after a nightmare at mt wgtn on Sunday with the newly acquired old style aprilia 50 i've used my mechanical genious to identify and repair the latest problem - partial block in fuel line. Dumb ass. It'll be at Tokoroa, hopefully no further problems to discovery. Ironically still have no idea how it goes after two times at the track with different issues each time.

[cotswold]

Mine will not be there, as it has developed a terminal disease. I took it back to the place of power and it became obvious that something is not well inside the engine.

[Farmaken]

Well that sucks big time :facepalm:

[F5 Dave]

indeed a shame, bad luck bud.

[Dutchee]

indeed a shame, bad luck bud.

talking to Cully before we headed home, he's keen to ride again, and when I pointed out I am two points behind him! I think we're riding in the next meet. will have to see if Craig can join us, and the four of us can battle it out for last place :)

[cotswold]

talking to Cully before we headed home, he's keen to ride again, and when I pointed out I am two points behind him! I think we're riding in the next meet. will have to see if Craig can join us, and the four of us can battle it out for last place :)

You will struggle to stay with him now the pumper is working almost properly, blame Rick :laugh:

[Dutchee]

You will struggle to stay with him now the pumper is working almost properly, blame Rick :laugh:

tis okay, can just throw my toys, blame my mechanic and head back into retirement.

[cotswold]

I just stripped out my 50 and have found a couple of issues.

The piston has been clipping the head, the rings have shed their tips and not sure what has happened on the piston. The big end feels fine but the main on the ignition side has movement

[F5 Dave]

ohh dear. yeah seen that more than once. Or twice. or whenever my MB50 revved to 12,000. Cured by running a piston with 1.2mm rings rather than 1.5. I think I said somewhere 'its all built around the piston you use. I ended up running RD50 pistons, but you can't just slam them in & besides they superseded with another RD & they had 1.5mm so its mute.


Head is only loosley positioned. Head needs to be doweled. On the 100 I just bored two diagonal holes larger & ran some bigger tube. Then you can say the head is in the same place every time. Then you measure squish.

[cotswold]

am6 rod dimensions
MODEL ROD S.E.EYE ROD CRANKPIN
LENGTH G.P. DIA WIDTH DIA LENGTH

85.00 12/15 12.00 16.00 40.00
APRILIA RS50 & OTHERS

These are the Honda NSR50 rod dimensions
ØA - 22 mm
ØB - 17 mm
C - 80 mm
D - 13,5 mm
E - 13,5 mm
F - 40 mm
ØG - 16 mm
ØH - 28,5 mm
ØI - 16,1 mm
J - 0,8 mm

The crank pin is the same size the aprilia rod is 5mm longer but the deck height is longer on the aprilia piston, should I take a punt and buy an Aprilia rod in ?

[RMS eng]

ohh dear. yeah seen that more than once. Or twice. or whenever my MB50 revved to 12,000. Cured by running a piston with 1.2mm rings rather than 1.5. I think I said somewhere 'its all built around the piston you use. I ended up running RD50 pistons, but you can't just slam them in & besides they superseded with another RD & they had 1.5mm so its mute.


Head is only loosley positioned. Head needs to be doweled. On the 100 I just bored two diagonal holes larger & ran some bigger tube. Then you can say the head is in the same place every time. Then you measure squish.

Jason did some work on your RS frame at last,made some motor mounts for my RG50.tried to put up a new post but it went missing so i put it on here,

[koba]

Jason did some work on your RS frame at last,made some motor mounts for my RG50.tried to put up a new post but it went missing so i put it on here,

That is really pretty.

What is with this shit, Mr mystery never-race man and some NZ based buckets?

[jasonu]

That is really pretty.

What is with this shit, Mr mystery never-race man and some NZ based buckets?

It is as close to Buckets as I can get from here...
Keeps me amused.

[F5 Dave]

Well if they finished the 50, spanked a few more hp out of it & put the broken old man building it on top of it, I suspect he might frighten most of the field.

[jasonu]

Well if they finished the 50, spanked a few more hp out of it & put the broken old man building it on top of it, I suspect he might frighten most of the field.

and himself.....

[mr bucketracer]

jasons bike is like the never ending story lol . better just to get a play station bucket gp game and go on line;)

[husaberg]

am6 rod dimensions
MODEL ROD S.E.EYE ROD CRANKPIN
LENGTH G.P. DIA WIDTH DIA LENGTH

85.00 12/15 12.00 16.00 40.00
APRILIA RS50 & OTHERS

These are the Honda NSR50 rod dimensions
ØA - 22 mm
ØB - 17 mm
C - 80 mm
D - 13,5 mm
E - 13,5 mm
F - 40 mm
ØG - 16 mm
ØH - 28,5 mm
ØI - 16,1 mm
J - 0,8 mm

The crank pin is the same size the aprilia rod is 5mm longer but the deck height is longer on the aprilia piston, should I take a punt and buy an Aprilia rod in ?

Had a look through here at the pistons and rods?
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html

[koba]

It is as close to Buckets as I can get from here...
Keeps me amused.

Yeah, I totally get that buzz actually.

I'm happy to crash any of them anytime too. ;)

[Farmaken]

Tim, have you had a look at KTM50sx pistons ??
12mm pin .8 ring 39.5mm std bore

[RMS eng]

Well if they finished the 50, spanked a few more hp out of it & put the broken old man building it on top of it, I suspect he might frighten most of the field.

thanks for the plug Dave,but not sure i have the plums to frighten anyone but my self,i know i can make a fast bike but the riding of it will be a wait and see if i ever make it to the track,hope to some time.

[cotswold]

Tim, have you had a look at KTM50sx pistons ??
12mm pin .8 ring 39.5mm std bore

They are on my list for the spare cylinder and seem to fit the bill but I was hoping to salvage the one that is at 40mm, the over size KTM is 41.5 and I think would make the bike over size....
any one work that out for me 40 stroke 41.5 bore but I think is about 54cc

[TZ350]

the over size KTM is 41.5 and I think would make the bike over size.... any one work that out for me 40 stroke 41.5 bore but I think is about 54cc

Yes 54cc ...... (its a bit pointless but 54.11 if you want to be exact)

295123

[cotswold]

The issue I am having is that every piston that looks any good size wise has a ring pin opposite the ex port, this means the ring tips will be passing over the port seen in the picture just above the inlet port. If I just said sod it and bought one would it just be a time bomb waiting to throw me up the track?

[F5 Dave]

Ideal. Directly opposite the ex is great. It can travel over the boost port no problem as long as there's no twist, ie the port is symetrical. Run this way on the MB with KT piston

[cotswold]

Ideal. Directly opposite the ex is great. It can travel over the boost port no problem as long as there's no twist, ie the port is symetrical. Run this way on the MB with KT piston

Cheers Dave,

[TZ350]

It can travel over the boost port no problem

Ran TZ pistons for ages in the RD's, the TZ's had a central ring peg and the ring gap passed over the boost port no problem.

[F5 Dave]

Rotax 256 kart/GP engine was first I saw to do this.

[mr bucketracer]

i had to on my rd50 drill and put the ring pin in the right place , if i could do that at 17 i'm shore you will not have a promblem

[cotswold]

i had to on my rd50 drill and put the ring pin in the right place , if i could do that at 17 i'm shore you will not have a promblem

Ask KEL WHAT HE THINKS OF THAT IDEA :killingme

[TZ350]

i had to on my rd50 drill and put the ring pin in the right place , if i could do that at 17 i'm shore you will not have a promblem
Ask KEL WHAT HE THINKS OF THAT IDEA :killingme


295143


shifting the ring peg, :Oops: that didn't go so well for us.

[F5 Dave]

Pete Sales did my RD50 piston peg relocations. Always worked fine. They died for other dumb reasons of my doing.

[TZ350]

Pete Sales did my RD50 piston peg relocation's.

I think our problem was the type of wire I used for the pin. I used SS welding wire and I think it fractured, it probably would have worked if I had of used piano wire instead.

[TZ350]

Kel called around today with his arm in a cast, broken bone in his hand and elbow, 6-8 weeks before the cast comes off, so just in time for the start of the North Island Series.... :D ..... well hopefully.

The engines symptoms looked the same as Taupo and Kaitoki where the ignition was wrong and I felt very depressed thinking I still hadn't got a handle on this TPS and 3D ignition mapping thing.

There were suggestions (not from Kel) that I should de tune it a bit to make it more reliable and I was tempted until I thought about it and realized that 100% of F4 2-Strokes that have failed when racing all made less than 31hp.

In fact the last blowup reported the other week in another thread was a 14rwhp 125, so the idea of de tuning for reliability is dumb. The right thing to do is develop the reliability of this engine and at 9 bar clearly this engine is not all that stressed, and I should be able to push that up to 10 or possibly 11.

268503 268504

Took the head off and it turns out that the modification I had done to the piston so the ring gap ran in the boost port for improved reliability was the problem. The pin had come out and jammed the ring and piston.

268500 268501 268502

So shot ourselves in the foot again but in a different and more imaginative way this time, sorry Kel.

Now does anyone know what the realistic upper BMEP number is for an air cooled 2-stroke because I would like to go there?

295146

I had tried to copy the Yamaha TZ style of ring peg where the pin came down from the top and the tip was bent into a small hole below the ring land. It all looked good on my piston but I think the vibration of the piston slapping about at 14K broke the tip off of the SS welding wire pin, piano wire next time.

[mr bucketracer]

I think our problem was the type of wire I used for the pin. I used SS welding wire and I think it fractured, it probably would have worked if I had of used piano wire instead.i just cut the pins out the old pistons think they have a taper to long ago to remember . anyway i thought kel always has it sideways lol

[RMS eng]

i just cut the pins out the old pistons think they have a taper to long ago to remember . anyway i thought kel always has it sideways lol

we used pins from a needle roller bearing,heat the piston and press fit in ,as the are hard,bearing shops sell them .

chris

[jasonu]

we used pins from a needle roller bearing,heat the piston and press fit in ,as the are hard,bearing shops sell them .

chris

or use the drill bit...

[mr bucketracer]

or use the drill bit...don't think a big ass wood drill will work lol maybe a parallel shank drill will

[cotswold]

I have found these over in Sweden, they look pretty good but just means I will have to develop my spare cylinder as my ported one is too big for these at 40mm.
Honda Racing 39 mm PE-80

A special flask designed by BARIKIT for racingendamål Fits Honda MB / MT engine family who want to run 50cc.

The pistons are in several tolerances starting 38.95,96,97, 98.
Super nice piston complete with all parts.
Overall Height 51.40 mm.
Height to the piston edge 50.20 mm
Chromring 1 mm height.
Piston pin 12 x 31.40 mm.
Piston Ring Locking straight back 180 degrees.
Center bolt to the piston top edge 26.10 mm.
Center bolt to the lower piston edge 24.10 mm.

Order Number PE-80 + size

The Rod kit looks beautiful but have been informed would be outside the rules so bought an aftermarket one :( ( though I cannot see race part written on the box anywhere ? )

[husaberg]

I have found these over in Sweden, they look pretty good but just means I will have to develop my spare cylinder as my ported one is too big for these at 40mm.
Honda Racing 39 mm PE-80

A special flask designed by BARIKIT for racingendamål Fits Honda MB / MT engine family who want to run 50cc.

The pistons are in several tolerances starting 38.95,96,97, 98.
Super nice piston complete with all parts.
Overall Height 51.40 mm.
Height to the piston edge 50.20 mm
Chromring 1 mm height.
Piston pin 12 x 31.40 mm.
Piston Ring Locking straight back 180 degrees.
Center bolt to the piston top edge 26.10 mm.
Center bolt to the lower piston edge 24.10 mm.

Order Number PE-80 + size

The Rod kit looks beautiful but have been informed would be outside the rules so bought an aftermarket one :( ( though I cannot see race part written on the box anywhere ? )


Did you see his Derbi cylinder and off the shelf rotary valve conversion plate?

[cotswold]

Did you see his Derbi cylinder and off the shelf rotary valve conversion plate?

I have spent a decent amount of time going through his web site and these boys are too clever by half.

Do you have an opinion on the legality of that rod kit? It's about triple the cost of the Japanese one that turned up today.

[husaberg]

I have spent a decent amount of time going through his web site and these boys are too clever by half.

Do you have an opinion on the legality of that rod kit? It's about triple the cost of the Japanese one that turned up today.
I Have learnt to have no opinions on Rods what so ever..........

[F5 Dave]

Ha, yeah I think we did the rod thing to death & I've kinda lost interest in thinking about it. I do know std Yam stuff is pretty damm fine. pity they use 16mm pin in their bigger stuff.

Center bolt to the piston top edge 26.10 mm is the only average thing I see there, actually maybe it isn't that bad. Looks like a good setup ring wise & that's most of the battle.


What I have learnt is Long brand rod kits used to have crap bearings in them. I'd buy genuine MB50 bearings (if they are the same for yours) as I seem to remember they got superceeded by the CR part, but that now listed as MB part is super legal.

[mr bucketracer]

where do i get a rod kit for a tf 100 ?

[F5 Dave]

Phil Turnbulls; but you'll have to get in a time machine,:laugh:

[husaberg]

Ha, yeah I think we did the rod thing to death & I've kinda lost interest in thinking about it. I do know std Yam stuff is pretty damm fine. pity they use 16mm pin in their bigger stuff.

Center bolt to the piston top edge 26.10 mm is the only average thing I see there, actually maybe it isn't that bad. Looks like a good setup ring wise & that's most of the battle.


What I have learnt is Long brand rod kits used to have crap bearings in them. I'd buy genuine MB50 bearings (if they are the same for yours) as I seem to remember they got superceeded by the CR part, but that now listed as MB part is super legal.

I see also the CR80 big end (aircooled i think) part number is the same as a NH125 lead too(maybe always was). Maybe Honda is indeed the Devil.
What actually was Mikes "Wraparound avatar rod" cause it sure was mallable.
50mm pistons are a pain its a shame Ken Seeber can't whip up some.......
I think the crankpin in the CR80 Air cooled was the same as the MB50 but had an odd maybe 13mm pin

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1130698982]Ha, yeah I think we did the rod thing to death & I've kinda lost interest in thinking about it.



I missed that, where was this discussed and how does one know what is illegal and what is after market ?

[Bert]

Phil Turnbulls; but you'll have to get in a time machine,:laugh:

Incorrect Dave.
Phil has re opened and secured the Suzuki franchise.

:msn-wink:

No time machine needed.

[mr bucketracer]

Phil Turnbulls; but you'll have to get in a time machine,:laugh:i don't want to buy the shop just a rod kit or 2 (-; the guys voice drives me crazy on the radio !

[F5 Dave]

An enquiry to MXparts.co.nz might turn something up perhaps? Seems to have a bunch of stuff aimed at MX but may have other bikes covered & he is cheap. I've used him for dirtbike parts & was well good.

[cotswold]

I have been attacking the cases and also the spare cylinders intake and was wondering how I was to get at the ports, by chance mr. photo Chris mentioned that he had a dentist drill and burrs but was unable to use the angled bit due to the bigger burrs not fitting. We decided I should attempt to modify one of the not so desirable burrs and see if I could retro fit it. Used my lathe a grinding disc from the dremell and a small file and it worked, took ages on the 1st one but have a week off so will do some of the others and get stuck into the porting

[chrisc]

Did you let your dog chew the end of it until it fit the right angle head? :lol:

Nice one mate, put it to some good use

[F5 Dave]

Ahh yes, I recognise those dentist heads. just apply gently & let the speed do the work as the gears inside aren't super strong. Drop of oil on them is good & do the head up tight or it will vibrate loose.

[cotswold]

Tim, have you had a look at KTM50sx pistons ??
12mm pin .8 ring 39.5mm std bore

I bought one of the KTM 39mm pistons and it looks very nice. I have decided to junk the 40mm cylinder and work up the standard one.

Tee Zee spotted something odd with my 2 cylinders today, the MTX50 one has no transfer holes to take coolant to the gallery on the underside of the exhaust port whereas the NSR50 cylinder does, will have to get the drill out and remedy Mr. Honda's mistake.

PS. dont tell Chris but I snapped one of his Burrs trying to modify it. Shhhh

[F5 Dave]

just with the piston, turn it upside down & check clearance to the small end. The hondog piston slants in at the top restricting bearing axial movement but the sm bearing is quite narrow.

[cotswold]

just with the piston, turn it upside down & check clearance to the small end. The hondog piston slants in at the top restricting bearing axial movement but the sm bearing is quite narrow.

I did check that, in the photo I have used the Honda pin and small end bearing and can see no noticeable difference. ( with side movement ) It fits nicely on the rod and covers all the holes in the cylinder so am hoping I have a winner. Bonus being I bought it next door to work.

[cotswold]

My pipe turned up today from a country far far away. A big thanks to the person who facilitated the purchase.

[cotswold]

I have been trying to find a legal Rod kit with a decent bearing for the 50 but not much available. I ended up buying a prox Kit and having a bearing made to suit the MTX50R, not the cheapest exercise but as I have one crank with a stuffed big end and the 2nd showing signs of defeat it will probably work out in the long run.

[husaberg]

I have been trying to find a legal Rod kit with a decent bearing for the 50 but not much available. I ended up buying a prox Kit and having a bearing made to suit the MTX50R, not the cheapest exercise but as I have one crank with a stuffed big end and the 2nd showing signs of defeat it will probably work out in the long run.

Lead 125 or maybe 80 has a CR80 big end (same exact part number) i remember they are an odd size.
I can check i part a parts book at home?

18mm what is the MTX50r.

[cotswold]

http://freetech50.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/20740954175/

[TZ350]

Some great looking 50's, love em.

[cotswold]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Balance-Of-Power/249827285189711

A page about suspension set up

[cotswold]

A parcel arrived today, The brakes look a little farked but maybe rebuildable. Who knows what number RS steering bearings are and can I get them from a non Honda source?

[F5 Dave]

erm, yeah. . .I sourced some through TSS here in wgtn but didn't write down the numbers, or what supplier they came through. It was someone who knew RS parts, dunno if it was Race supplies, but Kevin(?) should know. Wasn't Whites or Darbi. Might have been eurobike, nah can't have been. Think they were similar to CBR400 maybe(don't quote me, could be C50 step through with my memory), but ohh yeah I remember; the difference was the bottom race was like 6mm thick and I got it surfaced down to 1/2 that.

Go take some measurements & go see a decent shop.

[husaberg]

erm, yeah. . .I sourced some through TSS here in wgtn but didn't write down the numbers, or what supplier they came through. It was someone who knew RS parts, dunno if it was Race supplies, but Kevin(?) should know. Wasn't Whites or Darbi. Might have been eurobike, nah can't have been. Think they were similar to CBR400 maybe(don't quote me, could be C50 step through with my memory), but ohh yeah I remember; the difference was the bottom race was like 6mm thick and I got it surfaced down to 1/2 that.

Go take some measurements & go see a decent shop.

They are an oddball unknown in the universe i think i posted the size on the Help NF4 page Scott knows anyway.

Oh well its not there but we discussed it somewhere i think the od has to be changed on a common one.......
Googlle,,,says.......

http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/nf4-steering-head-bearings-t6176.html

here's he parts list the bearing sizes for pretty much anything are on the Sudco site.
I have posted and made a sheadsheet somewhere........



I will add this here as a few people don't know how to access this information.
Upper: 22.5 x 41 x 12.5
Lower: 24 x 41 x 12.5
Honda MB-5-50 (82)
Honda MR-50/K1 (74-75)
Honda MT50Z, MTX50
Honda NSF50F (90)
Honda Z50A/K3-K5/RH/RJ, Z50A (71-76)
Honda Z50R (79-87), Z50RD (86)
Honda CR60R (83)
Honda ATC70/K1 (73-74), ATC70 (78-85)
Honda CL70/K1-K3 (69-73)
Honda CT70/K1-K4 (69-76), CT70H/HK1 (70-73), CT70 (76-82)
Honda SL70/K1 (71-73)
Honda XL70 (74-76)
Honda XL75 (77-79)
Honda XR75 (73-7Cool
Honda MB80, MBX80RFD/RSD
Honda MTX80/C
Honda XL80S (80-85)
Honda XR80 (79-84), XR80RF-R (86-9Cool
Honda ATC90 (75-85)
Honda CS90
Honda CT90 (68-79)
Honda SL90 (69)
Honda ST90K1-K4
Honda CB/CL100/K1-K3 (76-7Cool
Honda SL100/K1-K3 (70-73)
Honda XL100/K1 (74-75), XL100/S (76-85)
Honda XR100RP-R (85-9Cool
Honda ATC110 (79-85)
Honda CT110 (80-86)
Honda XL110/S (76-85)
Honda ATC125M (84-87)
Honda CB125/S (76-85), CB125T/J (78-81), CB125TT (90)
Honda CG125
Honda CM125T/J (82-85)
Honda CR125M/M1 (74-7Cool
Honda CT125 (77), CT125H/J/K (87-89)
Honda MBX125
Honda MT125 (74-76), MT125R/RII (77-7Cool
Honda SL125/K1/K2
Honda TL125/K1/K2/S (73-76)
Honda XL125K-3 (78-79), XL125S (79-85)
Honda MR175K (75-77)
Honda ATC185/S (80-83)
Honda CM185C (7Cool, CM185T (78-79)
Honda XL185S (79-83), XL185SH/SJ/SK
Honda XR185 (79)
Honda ATC200 (79-83), ATC200E Big Red (82-84), ATC200S (84-85)
Honda CM200T (80-82)
Honda XR200 (80-83)
Honda CB250N (Late Models)
Honda CBX250F (85)
Honda CM250C (82-86), CM250T (80-82), CMX250C/CD (85-87)

Upper:30 x 55 x 17
Lower: 30 x 55 x 17
Suzuki GSXR600 (97-00)
Suzuki GSXR750 (96-03)
Suzuki TL1000R (98-00)
Suzuki TL1000S (97-01)
Suzuki GSXR1300R (99-00)
Yamaha YZFR6 (99-01)
Yamaha YZF-R1 (99-00)

Upper: 25 x 47 x 15
Lower: 30 x 55 x 17
Honda CB750KZ/FZ
Honda CB900FZ
Honda CBX/Z
Honda GL1000 (77-79), GL1000K3/Z
Kawasaki KX125 (82-91)
Kawasaki KDX200 (83-9Cool
Kawasaki KX250A5-A7(79-81), KX250B1/C1/C2/D1/D2/E1/F1/G1/H1/H2 (82-91)
Kawasaki KXT250A1/A2/B1/B2 (84-87)
Kawasaki KDX420B1 (81)
Kawasaki KX420A1/A2 (80-81)
Kawasaki KDX450A1 (82)
Kawasaki EX500B1-B4 (88-91)
Kawasaki KX500A1/A2 (83-86) B1/B2 (85-86), C1/D1 (87-8Cool, E1-E3/E4/E5 (89-93)
Kawasaki ZG1200B1-B12 Voyager (87-9Cool
Suzuki DR125SER/SES/SET/SEV (94-97)
Suzuki RM125J
Suzuki PE/RS175T-E (80-84)
Suzuki DR200SET/SEV/ SEW (96-9Cool
Suzuki DR250 (90-91), DR250S L/M/N/P/R /SES (90-95)
Suzuki GN250Z/D/F (82-85), GN250Z-ER (81-95)
Suzuki GSX250F M/N/P/R (91-94)
Suzuki PE250T/X (80-81)
Suzuki RG250G/FG (85)
Suzuki RGV250K (88-89), RGV250M/N/P/R (91-94)
Suzuki RM250J (8Cool
Suzuki RS250T/X (80-81)
Suzuki DR350 (90-9Cool
Suzuki DR350S L-HR (90-94)
Suzuki DR350SL/SM/SN/ SP/SER/SES/SET/SEV/SEW (90-9Cool
Suzuki DR400T (80) DR400ST
Suzuki GN400 (80), GN400T/TX/TZ (80-82)
Suzuki GSF400M (91-93), GS400 Bandit (91-93)
Suzuki GSX400EE/SE/EF/SF (85), GSX400ET/ST/EX/ SX/X
Suzuki GSXR400F
Suzuki PE400T/X (80-81)
Suzuki GS450E T/X/Z/D (80-83)
Suzuki GS450G Z/D/F(82-85), GS450L (80-8Cool
Suzuki GS450TX/TXZ/TXD/TZ (81-83)
Suzuki DR500X/Z/D (81-83)
Suzuki DR/PE500T/X (80-81)
Suzuki GS500E/EK/EV (89-00), GS500L (80-83)
Suzuki RG500G
Suzuki SP500X/Z (81-82)
Suzuki GS550E (83), GS550EF (85), GS550ESE/ESF (84-86), GS550ESG (86)
Suzuki GS550ET (80), GS550L (80-83), GS550LF/LG (85-86), GS550MZ (82), GS550TX (81)
Suzuki GSF600 (1996-00)
Suzuki GSX600FJ-FW (88-01)
Suzuki GSXR600WN/WP (92-93)
Suzuki RF600R (P/R) (93-94), RF600RR/RS /RT (94-96)
Suzuki DR650RE R/UR (94)
Suzuki DR650SN/SP (92-93)
Suzuki GS650D/XD (83), GS650EX/EZ (81-82), GS650GL (81-83), GS650 GX/GZ/ GD (81-83), GS650 MD (83)
Suzuki LS650F/P/G/J/K, LS650PS/PT/PV/PW Savage (95-01)
Suzuki NX85D (83)
Suzuki SV650 (99-00)
Suzuki GS700EF/ESF (85)
Suzuki GV700GLF (85)
Suzuki VS700 (86-87)
Suzuki DR750S/SU/J/K
Suzuki GS750ED/ESD (83), GS750ET/EX/EZ (80-82),GS750LT/LX (80-81), GS750SD (83), GS750TZ/TD (82-83)
Suzuki GSX750EF/F (85), GSX750ES D/E (83-84), GSX750F(89-92), GSX750FK-FT (89-96), GSX750S S/D (83)
Suzuki GSXR750 (86-95), GSXR750W N/P/R
Suzuki 750T/X (81-82)
Suzuki VS750G (88-91)
Suzuki VS800GLN-GLT Intruder (92-01)
Suzuki VX800L/M/N/P (90-94)
Suzuki VZ800V/W Marauder (97-01)
Suzuki GS850G/GL (79-83)
Suzuki RF900RR/RS/RT/ RV (94-97)
Suzuki GS1000C/EC/HC/N (78-79), GS1000ET (80), GS1000G/GL (80-81), GS1000L N (79)
Suzuki GS1000LN/SN/ST (79-80), GS1000SZ (82), GS1000T/HT/ ET (80)
Suzuki GS1100E (80-83), GS1100G/GL(82-83), GS1100GK (82-84), GS1100LT (80), GS1100SD (83)
Suzuki GSX1100E/ES/EF, GSX1100E T/X (80-81)
Suzuki GSX1100EE/ESF/EFF/EF/ESF/EFF (84), GSX1100F (90-93)
Suzuki GSX1100FJ-FP (88-93), GSX1100G M/N/P/R (91-94)
Suzuki GSX1100LT/ST (80), GSX1100 LN/SN (79), GSX1100S Z/D (82-83)
Suzuki GSXR1100 (90-93), GSXR1100F (88-92), GSXR1100G-M (86-91), GSXR1100WP/WR/ WS/WT/WV (93-9Cool
Suzuki GS1150EF/EG (85-86), GS1150ES3/ESE/ ESF (83-85)
Suzuki GSX1150E (83-86)
Suzuki GSF1200SV/SAV (97-01)
Suzuki GV1200GLF/GLG (85-86)
Suzuki GV1400G (86-89)
Suzuki VS1400 (87-01)
Suzuki VS1400GL H/R (87-01)
Suzuki VL1500 (98-01)
Yamaha BW80S/T/U/A (86-90)
Yamaha YZ100J/K (82-83)
Yamaha YZ125D-S (77-86)
Yamaha IT175D-K (77-83)
Yamaha IT200L/N/S (84-86)
Yamaha IT250D/E/F/G/H/J/K (77-83)
Yamaha TZ250F/G/H/J (79-82)
Yamaha TZR250R
Yamaha XT250L/LC (84)
Yamaha YZ250D-T (77-87)
Yamaha TT350S/T (86-87)
Yamaha XT350N/NC-K/KC (85-9Cool
Yamaha IT400D/E/F (77-79),
Yamaha FZR400 (88-90)
Yamaha YZ400D/E/F (77-79)
Yamaha IT425G (80)
Yamaha IT465H/J (81-82), YZ465G/H (80-81)
Yamaha IT490K/L (83-84), YZ490J-A (82-90)
Yamaha RZ500N (85)
Yamaha XT550J/K (82-83)
Yamaha FZR600 (89-99)
Yamaha TT600L/N/S/T/U (83-8Cool
Yamaha XT600L/LC-G/GC (84-95)
Yamaha YZF600 (95-00)
Yamaha XV650 (98-01)
Yamaha FZ700T/TC (87), FZX700S/T/TC (86-87)
Yamaha XJ700N/NC/S/SC/XN/XS/XSC (85-86)
Yamaha XV700 Virago (84-87)
Yamaha FZ750N/S/SC (85-86), FZ750U/UC (8Cool
Yamaha FZR750RT/RU (87-8Cool, FZR750R (90), FZX750 (87-89)
Yamaha XS750 ALL (77-79)
Yamaha XTZ750 (93)
Yamaha XV750 Virago (88-97)
Yamaha YZF750 (94-9Cool
Yamaha XS850 ALL (80-81)
Yamaha TDM850 (92-93)
Yamaha XJ900RK (83), XJ900FN (85)
Yamaha FZR1000 (87-91), FZR1000 EXUP (83-95)
Yamaha XV1000 Virago (84-85)
Yamaha FJ1100 (84-85)
Yamaha XJ1100J (82)
Yamaha XS1100ALL (78-81)
Yamaha XV1100 Virago (86-97)
Yamaha FJ1200 (86-91)
Yamaha VMX1200 V-Max (85-97)
Yamaha XVZ1200 Venture (83-85)
Yamaha XVZ1300 Venture (86-93)
Yamaha XVZ13 Royal Star

Upper: 25 x 48 x 16
Lower: 27 x 48 x 14
Suzuki RM125A/B/C (75-7Cool
Suzuki PE175C/N (78-79)
Suzuki GS250FW (85)
Suzuki GSX250T/ET (80)
Suzuki GT250A/B (76-77)
Suzuki PE250C/N (78-79)
Suzuki RM250A/B/C/C2
Suzuki TM250K/L/M (73-75)
Suzuki TS250 (70-79)
Suzuki GS300LF/LZ/LD (82-85)
Suzuki RM370A/B/C (76-77)
Suzuki SP370 (78-79)
Suzuki GT380K-B (73-77)
Suzuki GS400B/C/EC (77-7Cool
Suzuki RM400C (7Cool
Suzuki SP400T (80)
Suzuki TM/TS400 (73-77)
Suzuki GS425N/EN (79)
Suzuki GT500A/B (76-77)
Suzuki RE-Rotary (75-76)
Suzuki GS550B/C/EC (77-79)
Suzuki GT550J-B (72-75)
Suzuki GS750B/C/EC/N (77-79), GS750D C/N (78-79), GS750EN/ LN/LT (79-80)
Suzuki GT750 (72-77)

Upper: 25 x 48 x 13
Lower: 30 x 48 x 13
Suzuki RM100N/T/X (79-81)
Suzuki RM125N/T (79-80)
Suzuki RM250N/T (79-80)
Suzuki RM400N/T (79-80)
Yamaha L5T/L5TA-100 (69-70)
Yamaha RD125B/C (75-76)
Yamaha RD125LC
Yamaha TA125 (Roadrace)
Yamaha TD2/TD2B125 (70-71)
Yamaha TR2/TR2B125 (70-71)
Yamaha TZ125G (Roadrace) (80)
Yamaha YB125E/F
Yamaha RD200A/B/C (74-76)
Yamaha YTM200N/ERN (84)
Yamaha YTM225DRN/DRS (85-86)
Yamaha YTM225DXL/DXN (84-85)
Yamaha FZR250
Yamaha RD250 /LC (73-82)
Yamaha RD250YPVS (83-84)
Yamaha SR250G/H/J/TH (80-82)
Yamaha SRX250N (85), SRX250T/TC (87)
Yamaha TD3/TR3-250 (Roadrace) (72)
Yamaha TZ250 (73), TZ250C/D/E (76-7Cool
Yamaha TZR250 (87-91)
Yamaha XS250
Yamaha XV250U-W (88-89), XV250A/AC (90), XV250G/GC/H/HC/J/JC (95-99)
Yamaha R5/B/C (70-72),RD350 (73-79), RD350LC (80-82)
Yamaha RD350YPVS (83-84), RZ350L/N/NC (84-85)
Yamaha TZ350C/D/E (74-7Cool
Yamaha XS360C/D/2D (76-77)
Yamaha RD400A/B/C/D (76-79)
Yamaha XJ400 (80-85)
Yamaha XS400E/F/2E/2F (77-79), XS400G/H/J/K (80-83), XS400RJ/RK (82-83), XS400SG/SH (80-82)
Yamaha XV500 (83) XV535 (87-99)
Yamaha XV535 (91-94), XV535H/N (89-90), XV535SE (8Cool, XV535T/TC/U/A/ AC/EC/F/FC/G/GC/ SFC/SG/SGC/SH/SHC/SJ/SJC (87-97)
Yamaha XJ550H/J/K/RH/RJ/RK (81-83)
Yamaha FJ600L/LC/N/NC (84-85)
Yamaha XJ600 (92-9Cool
Yamaha YX600 (86-90)

Upper: 25 x 43 x 11
Lower: 30 x 48 x 12
Yamaha DT50B, DT50MX, DT50U/W/A (88-90)
Yamaha RD50MX (82), RX50K/L/MK (83-84)
Yamaha YSR50T-E (87-93)
Yamaha YZ50G (80)
Yamaha JT1/JT2/JT2MX (71-72)
Yamaha RD60/A/B (73-75)
Yamaha YZ60H/J/KM (81-83)
Yamaha DT80LC H/J/K (81-83), DT80MX
Yamaha GT80A-G (74-80), GT1/GTMX80 (73), GTMXA/MXB/MXC 80 (77-79), MX80G/H/J (80-82)
Yamaha RD80LC/MX(82)
Yamaha TY80A/B Trials (74-75)
Yamaha YZ80A-K (74-83)
Yamaha HT1/HT1B/HT1BM90 (70-71)
Yamaha AG100B
Yamaha DT100A-K (74-83)
Yamaha LT2/LT2M/LT2MX/LT3100 (72-73)
Yamaha MX100A/B (74-75)
Yamaha MX100F/H/J/K (79-83)
Yamaha RS100B/C (75-76)
Yamaha RT100A (90)
Yamaha YZ100C/D/E/F/G/H (76-81)
Yamaha AT1/AT1B/AT1C/ AT1E/AT1M/AT1MBAT1MX/AT2/AT2M/AT2MX/AT3/ 125 All (69-73)
Yamaha DT125 All (74-81), DT125LC (82)
Yamaha IT125G/H (80-81)
Yamaha MX125A/B/C (74-76)
Yamaha XT125J/K/KC (82-83)
Yamaha YT125N (85)
Yamaha YZ125A/B/C/X (74-76)
Yamaha AG175B
Yamaha CT1/CT2/CT3 175 All (69-73)
Yamaha DT175A-H (74-81)
Yamaha MX175A/B (74-75)
Yamaha MX175G/H/J (79-81)
Yamaha TY175B/C (75-76)
Yamaha YT175J/K Atv(82-83)
Yamaha YZ175C (76)
Yamaha SR185H/J (81-82)
Yamaha AG200
Yamaha BW200N/S/ES/ET/ EU (85-8Cool
Yamaha TW200 (87-92)
Yamaha TYM200EX/EL (83-84)
Yamaha XT200J/K/KC (82-83)
Yamaha YTM200K/EK (83), YTM200K/L (83-84)
Yamaha YTM225DXK (83)
Yamaha DT1/DT1B/DT1CMX/DT1MX/DT1S/ DT1C/DT1E/DT2/ DT2MX/DT250A-F/DT3 250 (68-79)
Yamaha MX250A/B (73-75)
Yamaha TT/XT250G/H/J (80-82)
Yamaha TY250A/C/D (74-77)
Yamaha XT250G/H/J/K/KC (80-83)
Yamaha XT250W (89)
Yamaha YZ250A/B/C (74-87)
Yamaha DT360A/B (74-75),
Yamaha MX360/A (73-74)
Yamaha RT1/RT1B/RTM/RT1MX360 (70-71)
Yamaha RT2/RT3/RT2MX360 (72-73)
Yamaha YZ360A/B (74-75)
Yamaha DT400B/C/D/E (75-7Cool
Yamaha IT400C (76)
Yamaha MX400B/C (75-76)
Yamaha YZ400B/C (75-76)
Yamaha SC500/A (73-74)
Yamaha SR500E/F/G/H (78-81)
Yamaha TT/XT500C-H (76-81)

Upper: 25 x 47 x 15
Lower: 28 x 52 x 16.5
Kawasaki KL250D2-D8 (85-91), KLR250 (-9Cool
Kawasaki ZX400K1/K2/K3
Kawasaki EN450A1-A7 (85-91), EN450N
Kawasaki EN500A1-A6 (90-96), EN500C1/C2 Vulcan Ltd (96-97)
Kawasaki GPZ550H1
Kawasaki KZ550F1/F2/M1 (83-84), KZ550H1/H2 (82-83)
Kawasaki Z550G6, Z550M1 Ltd (83)
Kawasaki ZR550B1-B5 (90-94)
Kawasaki ZX550A1/A2 (84-85)
Kawasaki GPX600R
Kawasaki KL600A1/B1/B3 (84-86)
Kawasaki ZX600 Ninja (85-97)
Kawasaki KLR650/B2 Tengai (89)
Kawasaki KL650A1-A11/B2/ KLR (87-97)
Kawasaki KZ700A1 (84)
Kawasaki ZN700A1/A2 (84-85)
Kawasaki GP750R, GPZ750R/R1
Kawasaki KZ750F1, KZ750L3 (83)
Kawasaki KZ750N1/N2 (82-83), KZ750R1 (82)
Kawasaki VN750A2 (86)
Kawasaki ZR750C1-C4 (91-94), ZR750 Zephyr
Kawasaki ZX750A1-A3/E1/E2/ F1-F4/H1/H2
Kawasaki GPZ900R
Kawasaki ZL900A1/A2 (85-86)
Kawasaki ZX900A1-A3 (84-86)
Kawasaki KZ1000J1-J3/K1/K2/ M1/M2 (81-82), KZ1000P1-P17 (82-9Cool, KZ1000R1/R2 (82-83)
Kawasaki Z1000K1 LTD (82)
Kawasaki ZG1000A1-A9 (86-94)
Kawasaki ZL1000A1 (87)
Kawasaki ZX1000A1/A2 (86-87), ZX1000B1-B3 (88-90)
Kawasaki GPZ1100A/S, B/S (81-82)
Kawasaki KZ1100A1-A3 (81-83), KZ1100B1/B2 (81-82), KZ1100D1/D2 (82-83), KZ1100L1 (83)
Kawasaki Z1100J/J2/Z
Kawasaki ZN1100B1/B2 (84-85)
Kawasaki ZR1100A1/A2 (92-93)
Kawasaki ZX1100A1-A2 (83-84)
Kawasaki VN15SE
Kawasaki VN1500A1-A9 (87-95)
Kawasaki VN1500B1-B5 (87-91)
Kawasaki VN1500A10/A11/C3/C4/D1/D2 (96-97)

Upper: 26 x 48.5 x 15.2
Lower: 30 x 50 x 14.4
Honda C250N (79)
Honda CB250 (Early Models)
Honda CB250RS (80-84)
Honda CBX250RS
Honda CM250T Rebel (82-84)
Honda GB250F/F2
Honda MVX250 (83-84)
Honda VT250F (83-86), VTR250 (8Cool
Honda CB350F/F1 (73-74), CB350G (73), CB350/ K2-K4 (69-72)
Honda SL350 /K2/K3 (69-73)
Honda CB360 (74-76), CB360GT (76), CB360T (74-77)
Honda CJ360T (76-77), CL360 (74-75)
Honda CB400A (74-75), CB400F (75-77), CB400TI/TII (78-79), CB400T (80-81)
Honda CBX400F
Honda CM400A/C/E/T (79-81)
Honda GB400
Honda CB450/K1-K7 (65-74), CB450T (82), CB450SC (82-86)
Honda CL450 /K2-K6 (68-74)
Honda CM450A/C/E (82-83)
Honda CB500/K1/K2 (71-73), CB500T (75-76)
Honda CX500 C/D (78-81)
Honda FT500 Ascot (82-83)
Honda GB500F/F2
Honda GL500/I (81-82)
Honda VT500 Ascot (83-84), VT500ED, VT500C/FT (83-84)
Honda CB550K/K1 (74-7Cool, CB550F (75-77), CB550SC (83)
Honda CBX550F (82-83)
Honda CB650 (79-82), CB650C (80-81), CB650SC (82-85), CBX650ED/SCD
Honda CX650C (83), CX650ED
Honda GL650/I (83)
Honda VT700C (84-85)
Honda CB750K (69-7Cool, CB750A (76-7Cool, CB750F (75-7Cool
Honda VFR750C (83)
Honda VT750C (83)
Honda GL1000 (75-76)
Honda GL1000L (76)

Upper: 30 x 48 x 14
Lower: 30 x 48 x 14
Kawasaki KH250A5 (76)
Kawasaki KZ250A
Kawasaki EX350B1 (83)
Kawasaki KZ350A1/A2/B1 (81-82), KZ350B2/B3 (87-8Cool
Kawasaki KH400A3-A5 (76-7Cool
Kawasaki KZ400A1/A2 (77-7Cool, KZ400B1/B2/C1 (78-79)
Kawasaki KZ400D/D3/D4 (74-77), KZ400H1 (79), KZ400S/S2/S3 (75-77)
Kawasaki ZX400D1-D5 (80-83)
Kawasaki KZ440A1-A4/D1-D5 (80-83), KZ440B1/B2 (80-81)
Kawasaki H1 500 C/D/E/F (69-75), KH 500A8 (76)
Kawasaki KZ500 (69-73)
Kawasaki H2 750 A/B/C (72-75)

Upper: 30 x 48 x 14
Lower: 30 x 52 x 17
Kawasaki EL250B2/B3 (88-89), EL250E1/E2 (91-92), EL250D4/D5 (93-94)
Kawasaki EX250E/E2/F2-F4 (86-90), EX250 F6/F7/F8/F9,F10/ F11 Ninja250R (92-97), EX250 H1-H5 (90-94)
Kawasaki ZX400H1/H2, ZXR400R
Kawasaki EX500A1-A7 (87-93), EX500D1-D4 (94-97)
Kawasaki KZ550A1-A4/C1-C4 (80-83), KZ550D1 (81)
Kawasaki KZ650B1-B3/C1-C4/D1/D2/E1/F1/H/ H1-H3
Kawasaki KZ750B1-B4 (76-79), KZ750E1-E3 (80-82)
Kawasaki KZ750G1 (80), KZ750H1-H4(80-83), KZ750K1/K2 (83-84), KZ750M1 (82), KZ750T
Kawasaki KZ900A4/B1 (76)
Kawasaki Z1 900A/B (73-75)
Kawasaki Z1R Series (78-80)
Kawasaki KZ1000A1-A4/B1-B4 (77-80), KZ1000D1 (7Cool, KZ1000D3/G1 (80)

Upper: 25 x 48 x 15.2
Lower: 30 x 48 x 15
Yamaha FZR400R
Yamaha SXR400
Yamaha SX500B/C/D/E (75-7Cool, TX500/A (73-74)
Yamaha XS550RK/RJ (82-83), XZ550RK/RJ (82-83)
Yamaha FZ600 (86-8Cool
Yamaha SRX600S/SC (86), SRX600T
Yamaha TX650/A (73-74)
Yamaha XJ650G/H//J/K (80-83), XJ650LH (81), XJ650LJ/LK/RJ (82-83)
Yamaha XS6501/1B/XS2 (70-72), XS650B-H/2F (75-81), XS650SE-SH (78-81), XS650SJ/SK (82-83)
Yamaha TX750 (73-74)
Yamaha XJ750J/K/MK/RH/RJ/RK (81-83)
Yamaha XV750H/J/K/MK (81-83), XV750SE (82)
Yamaha XV920J/K/MK (82-83), XV920RH/RJ (81-83)
Yamaha XV1000K/L Virago (83-84)

Upper: 26 x 47 x 15
Lower: 30 x 55 x 17
Honda NSR250R/F
Honda VTR250 (89-91)
Honda CBR400R (87)
Honda CBR400 R/R
Honda NS400RF/RG (85-86)
Honda VFR400ZG/RG
Honda CMX450C (86-87)
Honda CX500TC (82)
Honda VF500C (84-85), VF500F (84-86), VF500FE/FIIE/FF
Honda VT500C (85-86)
Honda CBR600 (89-90)
Honda CBR600F (87-90), CBR600 FM-FR (91-97), CBR600H
Honda VT600CJ (87), VT600C N-R (92-94)
Honda VT600C/CD Shadow VLX (88-97
Honda CX650T (83)
Honda NT650 (88-89)
Honda NT650J Revere
Honda CB700SC (84-86)
Honda VF700C (84-87)
Honda VF700F/S (84-85)
Honda VFR700F/F2
Honda CB750C/F/K (80-82)
Honda CB750F N-S (92-95)
Honda CB750FA/FB/FC/ F2C
Honda CB750SC (84-85)
Honda CBX750FE/F2F (84-86)
Honda VF750C (82-83)(8Cool
Honda VF750CC/CD/CE/SC/SD
Honda VF750F (83-84)
Honda VF750 F D/E/F (83-85)
Honda VF750FD
Honda VF750S (82-83)
Honda VFR750 (90-93)
Honda VFR750F/F2 (82-87), VFR750F L-S (90-95)
Honda VFR750FG/FH/FJ/FK/ FL
Honda VT800 (88-89)
Honda VT800C Shadow(8Cool
Honda PC800 Pacific Coast (89-9Cool
Honda CB900C (80-82), CB900F A/B/2B/C/2C (80-82), CB900FS(94)
Honda CBR900RR (93-9Cool
Honda CB1000C (83), CB1000F S (95)
Honda CBR1000 (87-93)
Honda CBR1000F (87-8Cool(90-96)
Honda CBX B/C (81-82)
Honda VF1000F (84-85), VF1000FE/FF/F2F, VF1000R (85-86)
Honda GL1100 (80-83), GL1100C/AC/DC/IC, GL1100D2D/AD/A/IA/DA, GL1100RB/RC/D/ID/DD
Honda VF1100C (83-86), VF1100S (84-85)
Honda VT1100C (85-89), VT1100C R-S (94-95)
Honda GL1200 (84-87)
Honda GL1500 (88-91)
Honda GL1500 AP-AR (93-94)
Honda VTX1800C (02)

Upper: 26 x 47 x 15
Lower: 26 x 47 x 15
Honda CR80RL-RR (90-94 )
Honda CR125R (82-89)
Honda NX125 (88-90)
Honda XL200R (83-84)
Honda XR200R (81-87), XR200RE/RF/RG/RH/RJ
Honda ATC250R (83-86)
Honda CR250R (82-89), CR250RE/RF/RG/RH/RJ/RK
Honda XL250R (82-87), XL250R E/F (84-85), XL250R J/K/L (88-90)
Honda XR250RE/RF/RG/RH/RJ/RK, XR250R N-R (92-94)
Honda XL/XR350R (83-85)
Honda XR350RD/RE/RF/RG/RH/RJ/RK
Honda XR400R (97-9Cool
Honda CR450R (81)
Honda CR480R (82-83)
Honda CR500R (84-89)
Honda XL500R (82)
Honda XR500R (81-84)
Honda XL600R (83-87), XL600RC/RF (85)
Honda XL600RD/LD/RE/RF/RG/V-VH(Transalp)
Honda XR600R (85-89), XR600RH/RJ/RK
Honda CB750F/K/L (79)
Honda CBX1000 (79)

Click on the arrow after Husaberg below and it will take you to the sheadsheets




Dredging is what coaster's do best. We would coal mine but ............


www.sudco.com/steering.html

I will put a Word version here if it fits as a lot of times web pages disappear.

done a bit of a sheadsheet i might fix it up a bit latter.

[F5 Dave]

Ohh eck, think its (distributor) something like 'K2'

[koba]

Ohh eck, think its (distributor) something like 'K2'

R2 I Think.

Or D2?

:laugh:

I'll be getting some soon, will post how I get on.

[chrisc]

Here's a valuable link:

Parts diagrams and numbers (http://www.battle.co.jp/partslist/index.htm)

Parts listings and diagrams for the following:

-----HONDA--HRC-----
Data Logger
Detonation Counter
DREAM50
NSR50
NSRmini
MH80
NSF100
RS125R
NSF250R
RS250R
CBR250R
NSR250
CRF250/X
CRF450
CB400SF
RVF400R
CBR600F/F4i
CBR600RR
CBR954RR
CBR1000RR

-----YAMAHA----SUGO KIT-----

TZ125
TZ250
YZF R-6
YZF R-1

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, R2 sounds better. OK 80% likely it was them.

[kel]

Who knows what number RS steering bearings are and can I get them from a non Honda source?

The bearing was made specifically for the RS125 and they are no longer available. You will have to either modify the closest bearing set you can find or change to tapers which means a new/longer stearing stem.

[F5 Dave]

I've done both the 50 & 100 now, worked fine with whatever roadbike bits but just with one race faced down (its crazy tall for some reason).

[kel]

I've done both the 50 & 100 now, worked fine with whatever roadbike bits but just with one race faced down (its crazy tall for some reason).

CBR900. CBR bearings have the same ID and OD but are thicker, but will pay to check as I could be wrong.

[cotswold]

Been over at the house of speed today with my crank. It did not go smoothly but some good progress was made. It still needs to be trued and balanced. Thanks Guys.


http://honda80ccracing.weebly.com/build-your-own-racer.html

I might turn the spare 50 into an F4?

[cotswold]

Just thought I'd put up this photo from last weekend in Holland, a bunch of Brits were there and all together 52 50's signed on...............awesome

[chrisc]

That's so awesome. I wonder what the average age of the riders was. I would have loved to race within that swarm

[Henk]

And a street race no less by the looks of it. Very jealous.

[F5 Dave]

Guy with the fairing moulds must be able to put his kids through uni on the proceeds

[cotswold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qD5Nc19Uow&feature=youtu.be
Tim Coopey


I asked the boys on freetech if any footage was available and Arno Geunes put this up for me. Worth a watch.

[cotswold]

I popped the KTM piston on today and measured the port timing of the worked up cylinder to see where they are at. With the spacer removed I still have a negative deck height but not too bad. The exhaust port is at 196* and the transfer is at 140* ATDC.
This is my scrap cylinder but had planned on copying the porting on my new one. not sure now.

[F5 Dave]

Sorry you've confused the crap out of me mixing open durations & ATDC measurement.

or have you got 140 deg transfer duration. Because that is crazy. probably required for 20,000rpm.

[cotswold]

Sorry you've confused the crap out of me mixing open durations & ATDC measurement.

or have you got 140 deg transfer duration. Because that is crazy. probably required for 20,000rpm.

I live in a confused state most of the time, with the piston at TDC the ex opens at 83* and the Trans Opens at 107*

Does this mean my transfers are too high.

20k is about 2k more than I want :D

[F5 Dave]

Which means 24* blowdown. No where near enough. Too high.

[cotswold]

Just a quick progression report.
As I cant just bolt an MX85 into my RS chassis I thought I'd do some more work to the 50, this one is too big to be legal but may as well make 2 motors and use this one in B grade. I'll get one of the oversize KTM 50 pistons so I can interchange bottom ends with out issue.

Thanks to Malcolm and F5 Dave I have these head bearings for the RS chassis.

[cotswold]

I had an hour to myself today and a bit of scrap ally on my garage floor so made up a bell mouth for the 28mm PWK off the 50. Is there any need for one and would there be a size I should have been aiming for?

[kel]

Is there any need for one and would there be a size I should have been aiming for?
Absolutely but you want to keep the carb length short as possible
297536

have a read of this

[cotswold]

I would like to try triple porting my NSR cylinder but on inspection mr. Honda has not left me any metal either side of the exhaust port exit to allow this. Question can I have the water gallery built up so I can put 2 extra ports in or is it in the too hard basket.

[Farmaken]

Cast Iron arc welding electrodes should do the job - maybe some devcon over the top to make sure it's water tight.
Extremely good chance of the bore distorting to some degree unfortunately

Thanks again for the help on the weekend, spent another half hour getting that tyre to seal and inflate :mad:

[Henk]

Cast Iron arc welding electrodes should do the job - maybe some devcon over the top to make sure it's water tight.
Extremely good chance of the bore distorting to some degree unfortunately

Thanks again for the help on the weekend, spent another half hour getting that tyre to seal and inflate :mad:

Do you ever have any GOOD luck?
Was bloody good to see you again, shame you had so many issues when you got here.

[mr bucketracer]

Do you ever have any GOOD luck?
Was bloody good to see you again, shame you had so many issues when you got here.time for a 4 stroker for ken i think (-; , missing having some good racing with him

[F5 Dave]

My RG was the same. Too hard for me.

[cotswold]

Help ! I just dropped off my NSR 50 cylinder and the KTM 50 piston and they want to know what clearance I require, does anyone have an idea?

[husaberg]

Help ! I just dropped off my NSR 50 cylinder and the KTM 50 piston and they want to know what clearance I require, does anyone have an idea?
Fits posted a rule of thumb on ese re clearances so much per mm bore but how it applies with a cylinder with a sleeve vs a piston for a coated cylinder i have no idea.............

[F5 Dave]

One & half thou inch should be fine and what I've run

[cotswold]

Has any one got a workshop manual I could buy/borrow from them for the NSR50 or MTX50R as I have a pile of bits I would like to put back together. My Dutch friend has suggested 6/100ths for my piston clearance so have gone with that.

[cotswold]

Popped over to the Auckland home of 2T improvement on Thursday. Took the old bottom end and the freshly rebored cylinder so I could mark up where I need to cut the ports to. I have started at 198 for the exhaust and the inlets were ok as they are but will be widened when I get the burrs modified. I also opened up the boyesen ports I put in before.

[cotswold]

This just shows what can be done if you are clever. NSR50 converted to disc valve and looks like a Kreidler ? cylinder.

[husaberg]

That will be a rolfe special...........the mad swede......
He did one with a Derbi earlier it was on the web site I linked with all the pistons and peg locations etc.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=249743


Er... the cases could look a lot like a Honda mb100 because they are a Honda MB50:yes: well they could be mbx or NS50,nsr50 but pretty sure mb5

Did you follow the link to the Roffe follow picture of man with tools on the navigation home site man witit looks like he offers it as a kit for the mb5. The building of this particular motor is in another thread i will have a look in my favorites/or bookmarks.
But it was i think in the racing 50's site. here you have to log on to see the pics


Mike he does a lot of MB stuff like a kokusan ignition just like the real racers, lots of inlets carb kits reeds etc electric pumps etc etc ....
So now Frits.
Does that mean i am no longer the thread Goldfish?Oh bugger i can't throw stones from this glasshouse/bowl. Oh well i will go back to the corner of my bowl then
bugger where is the corner. oh well if i keep swimming around it will be here somewhere. Oh what were we talking about again?

[cotswold]

A bit of advice required, a Dutch friend suggested I use this bearing on one side of the crank. After getting it I noticed it has a plastic/nylon ? cage, it is supposed to be able to spin up to 15000 without issue but I am a little scared as the last thing I want is my new motor going off like a grenade the 1st time out.


( amendment ) After talking to another Euro friend I have put the bearing on my nice to look at shelf and will stick to standard ones.

[F5 Dave]

I use resin cage bearings all the time. The roller type I have not used. As per Wobs advice I am now polishing the shaft so there is a sliding fit to the ID these days. I tape up the rod & mount it in the lathe & fine emery it for an age with test fitting every little while.

[FastFred]

I think the cranks can be made reliable with original Suzuki RGV rod kits and decent main brgs, the same could be done with TF/TS's and then they should be good for 13,000 + too.

300613

TeeZee uses plastic caged brgs.

[cotswold]

All the parts are now laid out on the garage floor ready to be re-assembled but I have been procrastinating. If any one out there has a workshop manual for an NSR or MTX50R I could do with a loan of it as I am not over confident of a successful outcome if I do it without one.

[F5 Dave]

I've only got the MB50 one but won't help as your gearbox shafts are together. PM me your email if you want it. All looks like MB50/100 sort of stuff, I never bothered with a manual.

[cotswold]

saw this 250 and looks like mine will be it's little rough as brother

[koba]

saw this 250 and looks like mine will be it's little rough as brother

So,

Honda NF4 Rs125 Frame? (and forks?)
Aprilia RS50 swinging arm?
FXR front rim?

I might have to start this 50 build...

[cotswold]

So,

Honda NF4 Rs125 Frame? (and forks?)
Aprilia RS50 swinging arm?
FXR front rim?

I might have to start this 50 build...

that fxr front rim is tempory I have Rs wheel x2 for the front

[F5 Dave]

ahh so that's where Husi's frame ended up:msn-wink:

[kel]

I never bothered with a manual.

Thats right, neither do I.
Got the KE right on only the third attempt, and that was the second motor :laugh:

[cotswold]

ahh so that's where Husi's frame ended up:msn-wink:

Ha ha I think you will find it came through my garage on it's way to your place, you not building another are you :devil2:

[F5 Dave]

Never made it to my place I just dropped it in a field in chch.

[husaberg]

ahh so that's where Husi's frame ended up:msn-wink:

Fair enough its not as if he would ever do anything with it:innocent:
Scott says rather than give a dozen beers to you and Malcolm, I should just shout the Griffith clan the beers and they will shout you you guys later. I must say they put up a convincing arguement.....

[F5 Dave]

My fee is: Don't ask any questions on a TM add I place & don't send me any erroneous PMs.


but what a muppet. "Can someone do me a favour and take my frame to the BOB?" And then do nothing to organise getting it.

So what was I supposed to do then huh? Hunt around asking someone to do me a favour and work out how to get it to you, or store it for several months?

I had better things to do that day. Just inconsiderate.

Sorry Cots, off thread

[husaberg]

My fee is: Don't ask any questions on a TM add I place & don't send me any erroneous PMs.


but what a muppet. "Can someone do me a favour and take my frame to the BOB?" And then do nothing to organise getting it.

So what was I supposed to do then huh? Hunt around asking someone to do me a favour and work out how to get it to you, or store it for several months?

I had better things to do that day. Just inconsiderate.

Sorry Cots, off thread

Thanks Dave and Malcolm
found this too bit late

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVJU1zWcDyw

[cotswold]

We're getting there.
My chosen piston had a negative deck height so I thought I would have the cylinder skimmed but the Auckland branch of 2T tuners incorporated decided the head would be machined into the gap, this was done and the squish set to 0. something very close and the head O ringed.
Many thanks to the man on the lathe as he shows real patience in the face of ineptitude.

I just need a 415 front sprocket or 2 ( NSR 50 fit ) , a water pump thought I'd try one of these http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=844950898
fit the PVL, bolt the motor in and cross my fingers.
Lots of work has been done by myself and 3rd parties so it would be nice if this works out

[cotswold]

Been a bit busy over the weekend, made up a bracket and some spacers so I could mount the radiator. I also mounted the water pump and ran the hoses but need to sort out a reducer for the hoses as the pump is 12mm and the bike is 10mm outlets.
I have yet to make up a battery box but have a place allocated.
Exhaust is fitted just need to strap the silencer.
To do list includes fitting the PVL and getting my sprockets ground down to 415.
This better work.
Hope I get it ready for Toke

I did have some photos but they are all coming out sideways or upside down ?

[cotswold]

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
This is pissing me off, why are my photos all every which way, I even retook a couple making sure the camera was the correct way up and.............ass still buggered ( metaphorically )

[husaberg]

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
This is pissing me off, why are my photos all every which way, I even retook a couple making sure the camera was the correct way up and.............ass still buggered ( metaphorically )

Just copy them into Word or Publisher or what ever and then save them as a jpeg or gif or whatever.
or when you open the photo's on your pc rotate them then save.
309307

[cotswold]

I have had better luck finding front sprockets to fit the Honda spline than I did with the Suzuki and have now got 12 - 15 fronts and at the moment just 49 & 47 rears in 415 pitch.
The fronts were machined down from 420 and the rears are stock Aprilia.

I also whipped the cylinder back off and did the mod that Wobbly has been telling us to do plus Tee Zee noticed my ex port was not symmetrical so I have sorted that out as well. ( as best as i could any how )

GVR is giving me a bit of a hand with my ignition timing tomorrow. That just leaves putting the lump back into the frame, Wiring and plumbing up the water pump, fitting a battery and reconnecting all the cables.
Oh my that list is getting shorter all the time, I could have it ready for Toke.

I have these nylon pipe fittings ( originally for chemical waste ) and they are a perfect size to connect my 2 different hose sizes, is this a bad idea ? should I just make some up from some Ally I bought?

[F5 Dave]

So what is the carving at the front and back of the skirt bottom supposed to do? Rod non std?

[cotswold]

So what is the carving at the front and back of the skirt bottom supposed to do? Rod non std?

Rod is not standard, carvings are special :rolleyes:

[F5 Dave]

Just concerned about strength of inlet skirt esp as that port is big enough for a 40mm carb.

[cotswold]

Just concerned about strength of inlet skirt esp as that port is big enough for a 40mm carb.

Cheers Dave that 2nd one is my Dutch mates , I chickened out well before my hole became over enlarged 😁

[husaberg]

That pic actually looks a lot what a Air cooled Cr80 is like, Not saying its right, but that's how they are.........
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo206/perra74/MT5%20projekt/Picture009.jpg
this is moded judging crankcase reed port they are normally two little holes.
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo206/perra74/MT5%20projekt/Picture008.jpg
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo206/perra74/MT5%20projekt/Picture004.jpg
http://s376.photobucket.com/user/perra74/media/MT5%20projekt/Picture006.jpg.html
can't remember the bore but they are about 48 or 49mm...

[husaberg]

std pics as I find them

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130840756]That pic actually looks a lot what a Air cooled Cr80 is like, Not saying its right, but that's how they are.........


My friend Jenne shared these with me, 17bhp on the dyno ( I have a picture and a video of the bike and it's impressive )

[cotswold]

50 back together, still have one hose to connect and a battery to buy and fit, it's proper buckety plus the shock is shot and I have to buy one before the GP

[TZ350]

Love the wasp paint scheme.

[F5 Dave]

Top stuff. See you at Tok.

[cotswold]

Well it started fairly easily although I had to put it in 4th to get the thing turning.
It ran well enough until the thing starved out, I'll have to take the carb back off and check out why. :(

[cotswold]

I arrived at the house of pain with hope in my heart and a shit load of work done to the bike. On the dyno it went and we did 3 or 4 pulls with the jetting I'd guessed at.
OOh nearly 14 at the wheel (13.8 I think) , it felt a bit fluffy so jetted up and it was rubbish so jetted down and it was rubbish, put it back to where we started and it was rubbish. Tee Zee sent me home to see if the piston had smeared or the ring had snagged.
Went home a bit angry as been working like a sand boy for weeks and I'd blown it up first go. ( tho not unhappy with the BHP )

Stripped it down the second I got home and ....................... nothing wrong with the internals at all, everything looks as good as when it was assembled ?
did a bit more digging around and found the HT lead was just hanging on to the cap, fixed that and also made sure the earths were all paint free, reassembled the bar steward put it in gear, span the wheel and off she went. Sounds fine so buggered if I know, we'll see what happens at Toke, glad I have an F4 to ride in toke cup as hate not racing due to issues with the bike.

[mr bucketracer]

i liked it better when it was making 19.5 hp:cool:

[cotswold]

i liked it better when it was making 19.5 hp:cool:

me too but the works Kreidler I borrowed the dyno chart from lives in the UK with it's owner

[Henk]

Climb on a sidecar as well on Saturday, collect the whole set.

[cotswold]

Climb on a sidecar as well on Saturday, collect the whole set.

I'll drive but my swinging days are over

[mr bucketracer]

me too but the works Kreidler I borrowed the dyno chart from lives in the UK with it's ownerlol around 14hp is a very good start . well done

[F5 Dave]

Do you know how many years it took me to get to 14hp? And to stay there was hard I had a tickle less last year. You've done well.

[TZ350]

I arrived at the house of pain with hope in my heart and a shit load of work done to the bike. On the dyno it went and we did 3 or 4 pulls with the jetting I'd guessed at.
OOh nearly 14 at the wheel (13.8 I think) , it felt a bit fluffy so jetted up and it was rubbish so jetted down and it was rubbish, put it back to where we started and it was rubbish. Tee Zee sent me home to see if the piston had smeared or the ring had snagged.Went home a bit angry as been working like a sand boy for weeks and I'd blown it up first go. ( tho not unhappy with the BHP )

Stripped it down the second I got home and ....................... nothing wrong with the internals at all, everything looks as good as when it was assembled ?
did a bit more digging around and found the HT lead was just hanging on to the cap, fixed that and also made sure the earths were all paint free, reassembled the bar steward put it in gear, span the wheel and off she went. Sounds fine so buggered if I know, we'll see what happens at Toke, glad I have an F4 to ride in toke cup as hate not racing due to issues with the bike.

310160

There you go ....

310161

Some other 50's that have been on the dyno recently, the NSR is the red line.

[cotswold]

310160

There you go ....

310161

Some other 50's that have been on the dyno recently, the NSR is the red line.

Thanks very much Robert, just have to hope the cap was the issue

[cotswold]

This turned up in the mail today ( thanks Roger ) :niceone:

[cotswold]

Honda NF4 bare frame
I have decided I am not going to use my NF4 frame as I'm too old for it to make much difference. So I have a bare NF4 frame for sale, PM me if you are interested.
It's cheaper than this one
http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m80460617

[cotswold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJj7D2Cp2E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zh3pX1t_6w

fark its quick

[chrisc]

He definitely knows how to get a stink wheel off the line!

[koba]

Woah! Very fast!

[F5 Dave]

Who let that 250 in?

[cotswold]

Mr. Steer and I took a cutting tool and grinder to my Aprilia chassis and surgically removed the top shock mount and creating another one in a position where I can now fit a proper shock. I now have damping and pre-load. :woohoo:

[TZ350]

Good One ..... :Punk: ... its all on for the 50's next season.

[cotswold]

I am going to put this in my rs chassis ready for the gp, will be water cooling the head though

[F5 Dave]

Are they going to run another open gp? Last one was 2008 at Ruapuna

[Grumph]

Are they going to run another open gp? Last one was 2008 at Ruapuna

NZ titles incl GP are supposed to be allocated at the AGM - if they've been asked for....

If no one asks, they're not allocated supposedly.