Semi-pivotless frame

[Delphinus]

I'm looking a getting a bike with a dead motor to convert to electric. Found a relatively cheap VTR1000F on trademe which looks suitable. However wikipedia says it has a "Semi-pivotless frame".

Semi-pivotless frame meant that engine was a stressed member with the swingarm bolted directly to the engine.

If I'm wanting to remove the engine entirely, I'm guessing this would be a bad thing? Ie should I be looking for a bike without a Semi-pivotless frame?

[Drew]

I'm looking a getting a bike with a dead motor to convert to electric. Found a relatively cheap VTR1000F on trademe which looks suitable. However wikipedia says it has a "Semi-pivotless frame".


If I'm wanting to remove the engine entirely, I'm guessing this would be a bad thing? Ie should I be looking for a bike without a Semi-pivotless frame?Unless you wanna faff about altering the frame, before you even try and put a motor in it, yes.

Why would a V-twin be a good start point anyway? Narrow frame means less space to put...everything.

[Delphinus]

Great, thanks for clarifying that.

Why would a V-twin be a good start point anyway? Narrow frame means less space to put...everything.
Good point. Haven't actually looked closely at a V-twin for a while. Guess its quite a difference between that and IL4?

[Drew]

Great, thanks for clarifying that.

Good point. Haven't actually looked closely at a V-twin for a while. Guess its quite a difference between that and IL4?You loose at least 100mm of width, without any substantial weight gains or rigidity.

Just doesn't seem an ideal starting point to me.

There was recently a GSXR750 SRAD rolling frame on Trademe. A much better starting point I should think, with quite a wide frame spar measurement.

[Delphinus]

There was recently a GSXR750 SRAD rolling frame on Trademe. A much better starting point I should think, with quite a wide frame spar measurement.
This one?: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/complete-engines/auction-628267055.htm

[Drew]

This one?: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/complete-engines/auction-628267055.htmI thought there was just a rolling frame, no motor.

Could be wrong, it happens a lot.

You buy that one though, and I'll give you at least a couple hundy for the motor.

[Delphinus]

You buy that one though, and I'll give you at least a couple hundy for the motor.
Works for me. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

[Delphinus]

Unfortunately its gone. Let me know if you stumble across anything else suitable. My trademe-fu seems lacking.

[mossy1200]

Unfortunately its gone. Let me know if you stumble across anything else suitable. My trademe-fu seems lacking.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/other/auction-636647890.htm

[Delphinus]

Thanks Mossy, a potential but ideally I'd like something in a slightly better state of repair...

[mossy1200]

Thanks Mossy, a potential but ideally I'd like something in a slightly better state of repair...

Do consider it as the 17inch wheels alone on that frame make it very cheap chassis to start with. You wont be wanting a lot from a rolling bike that that one doesn't have.

[Delphinus]

Do consider it as the 17inch wheels alone on that frame make it very cheap chassis to start with.
Doesn't that have a 16" front?

You wont be wanting a lot from a rolling bike that that one doesn't have.
As in I don't have a bike yet so shouldn't be so picky?

[Drew]

Doesn't that have a 16" front?

As in I don't have a bike yet so shouldn't be so picky?17s front and rear on the later ones like that.

I think he means, since nearly everything other than the rolling frame will be getting the arse, it suits your needs nicely.

[Drew]

I'm almost certain that front fairing, was off a K1/2 GSXR1000 or K2/3 600/750

Doesn't look like any CBR I've ever seen.

[mossy1200]

As in I don't have a bike yet so shouldn't be so picky?

No I think its a perfect chassis. Hang the battery cradle and motor and build from it.

If it doesn't get purchased ill buy it and make another trailer from it.

1998 was the first year cbr had 17inch front wheel.

[mossy1200]

I'm almost certain that front fairing, was off a K1/2 GSXR1000 or K2/3 600/750

Doesn't look like any CBR I've ever seen.

Im not sure thr front end is cbr either. That's some fat forks.

[Drew]

Im not sure thr front end is cbr either. That's some fat forks.Before it got crashed/chucked a leg out of bed, I think it would have been quite cool...for a Honda.

Paint looks choice, bodywork doesn't seem to have been bodgied on.

[mossy1200]

Before it got crashed/chucked a leg out of bed, I think it would have been quite cool...for a Honda.

Paint looks choice, bodywork doesn't seem to have been bodgied on.

They are cbr forks. Wonder if they are straight though. Looks like K3 fairings and tail conversion.

This model was only 180 dry so it would be a light roller.

[Drew]

They are cbr forks. Wonder if they are straight though. Looks like K3 fairings and tail conversion.

This model was only 180 dry so it would be a light roller.The first phot the forks look a little bent. But it could be completely illusionary.

Front fairing and headlight aren't K3 thou items. Tail looks almost R6 or R1.

Good talking point, till you chuck it into a creek.

[mossy1200]

The first phot the forks look a little bent. But it could be completely illusionary.

Front fairing and headlight aren't K3 thou items. Tail looks almost R6 or R1.

Good talking point, till you chuck it into a creek.

I don't think he should get this one. It really only looks good for trailer parts.

[mossy1200]

I'm almost certain that front fairing, was off a K1/2 GSXR1000 or K2/3 600/750

Doesn't look like any CBR I've ever seen.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unpaint-Raw-Upper-Front-Fairing-fit-K1-01-02-GSXR1000-GSXR-Suzuki-GSX-R-1000-/221003616451

K1

[Delphinus]

You guys have a sharp eye. I gave the guy a call. He said its got a GSXR Front (headlight etc) and an R1 tail. Rekons the rolling chassis is all intact. Wheels are both 17". LED taillight.
What do you rekon? I was hoping for something a bit more intact in regards to lights wiring etc. Mainly because I'm not sure how hard it would be to tidy up that side of things.

[Delphinus]

Mossy & Drew, I see both of you guys are based in Wellington. Would either of you be interested in going to take a look at it for me? Box of beers (or equivalent) in it for you. I'm in Dunedin so its a bit far for me.

[Drew]

You guys have a sharp eye. I gave the guy a call. He said its got a GSXR Front (headlight etc) and an R1 tail. Rekons the rolling chassis is all intact. Wheels are both 17". LED taillight.
What do you rekon? I was hoping for something a bit more intact in regards to lights wiring etc. Mainly because I'm not sure how hard it would be to tidy up that side of things.The headlight seems to be mostly intact. But of course, we can't see the mounting points which often break.

The looks of the bike, suggest to me that the crash wasn't actually that bad. The fact that a conrod has popped out the front of the casings means one of two things to me.

He crashed it, took it home, and did a monster burnout until it shit itself. The rear tyre has loads of tread on the sides, and none in the middle.

Or it chucked the leg out of bed, and then chucked him off.

I expect the lighting circuits to be mostly serviceable. Given that you are going to have to completely strip the loom to get those circuits on their own anyway, whatever damage there is you won't struggle to sort it. Switch blocks on the bars might be damaged, but it's of little consequence, they will be easily sourced from any number of wreckers and won't even need to be model specific for your application.

So the questions left to answer, are all on you. Is the extra room you get from a 'big block' sports bike a requirement? Is the bike fairly priced for what you're getting, in your opinion?

[Drew]

Mossy & Drew, I see both of you guys are based in Wellington. Would either of you be interested in going to take a look at it for me? Box of beers (or equivalent) in it for you. I'm in Dunedin so its a bit far for me.I'm happy to go have a look for you.

Give me a list of what you are concerned most about, and I will do my best to check the structural stuff that I would normally look for.

[Delphinus]

He crashed it, took it home, and did a monster burnout until it shit itself. The rear tyre has loads of tread on the sides, and none in the middle.
Yeah he did say he was doing a few burnouts


I expect the lighting circuits to be mostly serviceable. Given that you are going to have to completely strip the loom to get those circuits on their own anyway, whatever damage there is you won't struggle to sort it. Switch blocks on the bars might be damaged, but it's of little consequence, they will be easily sourced from any number of wreckers and won't even need to be model specific for your application.

So the questions left to answer, are all on you. Is the extra room you get from a 'big block' sports bike a requirement? Is the bike fairly priced for what you're getting, in your opinion?
Good to know about lights/loom etc. I guess my fabricator friend should be able to do whatever needs doing to mount things in the right place.
Yes the "big block" and lightweight aspects are a requirement. I think its worthwhile getting some room and keeping weight down. Batteries are big. And heavy. Yes I do think its well priced. I had allowed up to about $500 for the chassis.


I'm happy to go have a look for you.

Give me a list of what you are concerned most about, and I will do my best to check the structural stuff that I would normally look for.
Thankyou, much appreciated. I'll confirm a list for you soon. I guess my main concerns are like you say, structural stuff, where/how its damaged (ie what damage might not be obvious?).
I have family in Masterton that can pick it up for me so no problems with pickup.

[Delphinus]

The headlight seems to be mostly intact. But of course, we can't see the mounting points which often break.

The looks of the bike, suggest to me that the crash wasn't actually that bad. The fact that a conrod has popped out the front of the casings means one of two things to me.

He crashed it, took it home, and did a monster burnout until it shit itself. The rear tyre has loads of tread on the sides, and none in the middle.

Or it chucked the leg out of bed, and then chucked him off.

Allegedly it just fell over so wasn't actually crashed. I'll leave you to confirm that when you look at it.

[Delphinus]

Dammit, he sold it without waiting for the auction to finish... Back to the drawing board.

[mossy1200]

Dammit, he sold it without waiting for the auction to finish... Back to the drawing board.

That sux. There shouldn't be a withdraw option.

Its the kind of thing your after. The problem you will have is its also the kind of thing people are after just to get the wheels.
Its likely someone called him and offered him $400 cash for the wheels and discs to put on a post classic race bike.
If the shocks were straight they would be worth 500+ to someone that has a wrecked front end etc.

The things you want are strong ally chassis, good wheels, good front end and a rear sub frame that bolts onto the main frame.


http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-637447549.htm Transport is an issue
These would work but being Genesis models they will have 18inch rear wheels.
Conversion to 17inch isn't very hard but I had to order a fzr1000 exup 17inch wheel from usa when I wanted a wet set of wheels because they arnt easy to find.
Maybe that's not as important to you for the road.

If you want to stay budget down you may need to spend more and sell what you don't want.

[Erelyes]

That sux. There shouldn't be a withdraw option.

I'd report, if you know it's been sold when there were bids with reserve met.

[mossy1200]

I'd report, if you know it's been sold when there were bids with reserve met.

They don't care. Its happened to me about 20 times so far. That's why they charge most of the vehicle costs up front and then try charge the success fee also when you withdraw.



http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wheels/auction-637464937.htm
That's the perfect roller but its dearer and in Auckland. Idd start out with something like it.

[vifferman]

I'm looking a getting a bike with a dead motor to convert to electric. Found a relatively cheap VTR1000F on trademe which looks suitable. However wikipedia says it has a "Semi-pivotless frame".


If I'm wanting to remove the engine entirely, I'm guessing this would be a bad thing? Ie should I be looking for a bike without a Semi-pivotless frame?
There are bikes like the VTR1000 and VFR800 where the swingarm pivots are in the back of the engine case (i.e., the engine is a stressed member in lieu of a frame), so when the engine's removed, you'd have to manufacture a new swingarm pivot, plus add something in to replace the engine's various mounting points for ancillary items.
Another bad thing about these two (and similar bikes) are the subframes are alloy. You'd be better off with a conventional steel-tubing frame that you could cut and weld if required.

[Delphinus]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-637447549.htm Transport is an issue
These would work but being Genesis models they will have 18inch rear wheels.
Conversion to 17inch isn't very hard but I had to order a fzr1000 exup 17inch wheel from usa when I wanted a wet set of wheels because they arnt easy to find.
Maybe that's not as important to you for the road.

Yeah what is the main issue with 18" wheels? Just tyre choice and price? I was looking at for example the Metzler Roadtec and the 18" tyres are only $35 more than 17" equivalent.

Transport for above (Hastings) isn't too much of an issue. I have family in Masterton who can store it for a while and other family who can throw it on the back of a truck for me in a couple of months.

You might be right. Is something suitable at $500 unrealistic? I'm in no particular hurry.

[Delphinus]

There are bikes like the VTR1000 and VFR800 where the swingarm pivots are in the back of the engine case (i.e., the engine is a stressed member in lieu of a frame), so when the engine's removed, you'd have to manufacture a new swingarm pivot, plus add something in to replace the engine's various mounting points for ancillary items.
Not to mention makes the re-registering for road use much harder due to the modifications. I'm learning.

Another bad thing about these two (and similar bikes) are the subframes are alloy. You'd be better off with a conventional steel-tubing frame that you could cut and weld if required.
I'd actually prefer the alloy to keep the weight down. I have a friend who is a fabricator and he specialises in welding alloy.

[Drew]

Yeah what is the main issue with 18" wheels? Just tyre choice and price? I was looking at for example the Metzler Roadtec and the 18" tyres are only $35 more than 17" equivalent.

Transport for above (Hastings) isn't too much of an issue. I have family in Masterton who can store it for a while and other family who can throw it on the back of a truck for me in a couple of months.

You might be right. Is something suitable at $500 unrealistic? I'm in no particular hurry.I don't have the time, but I would buy those and make one pre 89 race bike, and sell the rolling frame from the other if I did.

The 18" hoop is a pain to get great rubber for, but if you're not building a race bike it's easy to overcome.

[mossy1200]

Yeah what is the main issue with 18" wheels? Just tyre choice and price? I was looking at for example the Metzler Roadtec and the 18" tyres are only $35 more than 17" equivalent.

Transport for above (Hastings) isn't too much of an issue. I have family in Masterton who can store it for a while and other family who can throw it on the back of a truck for me in a couple of months.

You might be right. Is something suitable at $500 unrealistic? I'm in no particular hurry.

18 not to bad other than tire options but there is still good road options.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wheels/auction-637464937.htm If you could afford it.

If you went for the fzrs you would have about 1-1.3k worth of parts to sell left over.

[nallac]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-637447549.htm


They'd be a cool project, priced well to.... where's all my loose change



http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wheels/auction-637464937.htm
That's the perfect roller but its dearer and in Auckland. Idd start out with something like it.


Thats a bargin for a whats there, perfect for the OP's elecky transplant


Not to mention makes the re-registering for road use much harder due to the modifications. I'm learning.

You are going to get certed for the elecky motor any way so no real added cost involved in that side, just the fab work involved.

Get that Bking.

[mossy1200]

They'd be a cool project, priced well to.... where's all my loose change




Thats a bargin for a whats there, perfect for the OP's elecky transplant



You are going to get certed for the elecky motor any way so no real added cost involved in that side, just the fab work involved.

Get that Bking.

He just put the price up 2 grand to 2980

[Delphinus]

Does this look familiar?? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=642207260

[Drew]

Does this look familiar?? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=642207260Methinks someone didn't realise how hard it would be to get a Blade motor.

[Delphinus]

Found a Kawasaki GPX 750 1987 and its even here in Dunedin! http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=642645063
Its old, its got a heap of kms on it, but could be suitable. Steel frame but still only 205kg dry. Not a huge amount more weight than something in alloy. Would the 20kg or so make much of a difference?
And they have been converted before. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/home-made-electric-kawasaki-gpx-750r-motorcycle-photo-galleryvideo-54086.html

Take it you rekon?

[Drew]

Take it you rekon?I would personally like to work with a twin beam style frame for your application. But then, I'm not doing the job.

The weight of the steel isn't the issue, my RF900 has a beam style steel frame. It actually weights less than an SRAD GSXR750 aluminium of the same year, and is more rigid. It just seems like you have more freedom with them.

That all said, if you get a bike that's been done before you can look at their finished product and change things you can design better.

Nothing wrong with the bikes, they handle like a bathtub half full of water if you try and punt them, but that's not what you're building it for is it?

I'm no help, you're welcome.

[Delphinus]

I would personally like to work with a twin beam style frame for your application. But then, I'm not doing the job.

Nothing wrong with the bikes, they handle like a bathtub half full of water if you try and punt them, but that's not what you're building it for is it?

What exactly is a twin beam style? Like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Buell_Lightning_XB9SX_CityX.jpg/760px-Buell_Lightning_XB9SX_CityX.jpg with everything hanging below the surround? Effectively what most modern bikes are doing? What would make that easier to work with?

While it will primarily be a commuter bike, I would like the optioin of "giving it a punt" later down the track if battery tech gives me a bit more range.... Or I'm bored and feel like checking out the local twisties.

And contrary to popular belief you are actually helpful Drew!

[Drew]

What exactly is a twin beam style? Like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Buell_Lightning_XB9SX_CityX.jpg/760px-Buell_Lightning_XB9SX_CityX.jpg with everything hanging below the surround? Effectively what most modern bikes are doing? What would make that easier to work with?

While it will primarily be a commuter bike, I would like the optioin of "giving it a punt" later down the track if battery tech gives me a bit more range.... Or I'm bored and feel like checking out the local twisties.

And contrary to popular belief you are actually helpful Drew!Space and frame rigidity are at maximum with a beam style frame. It's why the GP bikes use it...except the Ducati, but I doubt anyone should follow their lead.

Here's a good example of the beam. Now remember, the tank sits on top of the two frame spars. So you have all that space above the center line of the rails too.

http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/aprilia-rsv4-review-road-test-video-rsv4r-16.jpg

If I had to guess, I would say that is an Aprilia frame, which is V-twin. An inline four shares similar dimensions in most respects, except width. The head of the motor sits between the rails, just behind the headstock. Even if it does hang lower, the airbox sits there so it still needs to be wide.

I'm no engineer, but I am lazy. If I can make it easier on my self, I will.

If your motor sits right back by the swingarm pivot, you could make your cell packs sit in front of it in a removable cage. I've seen what happens when spanners get dropped trying to work on the packs in place...not pretty.

[Delphinus]

Ok so you're opting for that style of frame more for handling (and space).
I sorta see what you're saying about space, but why does that increase the space so much more than the older style frame? You'd need to build the support structure to hang off the frame anyway.

[Drew]

Ok so you're opting for that style of frame more for handling (and space).
I sorta see what you're saying about space, but why does that increase the space so much more than the older style frame? You'd need to build the support structure to hang off the frame anyway.

There's nothing in the way on a beam. You can make a cradle to support your whole motor and cells, that bolts to the original engine mounting points. It can then go in and out with ease. In afixed cradle, everything has to go in sideways.

There are upside to the cradle too. But the final package is where the beam comes into it's own.

[Delphinus]

You can make a cradle to support your whole motor and cells, that bolts to the original engine mounting points.

Yep I see your way of thinking.
Due to that and the poor handling you rekon on the GPX its off the list.