America's Cup

[oldrider]

That Oracle boat is a "rocketship" ... the American team just did not know how to sail her .... ETNZ showed them how it's done!

ETNZ boat is "agricultural" by comparison and as they always insist the fastest boat will win the cup!

Unless the American team make a mistake or suffer a gear failure ETNZ will probably not win another race! :no:

The ETNZ performance will probably deteriorate and so will morale etc, they will start arguing among themselves and playing the blame game!

Oracle on the other hand will probably go from strength to strength and all the "luck" will go their way ... greatest comeback since sliced bread! etc etc etc! :rolleyes:

Still compelling viewing with the odds set the way they are at this stage! :niceone:

[Maha]

Dave Dobbyn poised in Auckland somewhere ready to play Loyal?... please no, make it stop! :crybaby:

[Road kill]

That Oracle boat is a "rocketship" ... the American team just did not know how to sail her .... ETNZ showed them how it's done!

ETNZ boat is "agricultural" by comparison and as they always insist the fastest boat will win the cup!

Unless the American team make a mistake or suffer a gear failure ETNZ will probably not win another race! :no:

The ETNZ performance will probably deteriorate and so will morale etc, they will start arguing among themselves and playing the blame game!

Oracle on the other hand will probably go from strength to strength and all the "luck" will go their way ... greatest comeback since sliced bread! etc etc etc! :rolleyes:

Still compelling viewing with the odds set the way they are at this stage! :niceone:

Take a pill dude.:pinch:

[oldrider]

Take a pill dude.:pinch:

Pill taken but will it change anything ... I think not! :shifty:

[AllanB]

Mah - another day without racing. I guess another hour or more of lost productivity for NZ tomorrow morning.........

[oldrider]

Every second of delay is in Larry Ellison's favour and he just got another 24 hours given to him to work on his boats! :doh:

[AllanB]

Every second of delay is in Larry Ellison's favour and he just got another 24 hours given to him to work on his boats! :doh:

Agree - I am starting to wonder if the races will be delayed and delayed until the wind favours USA ......

[Bikemad]

Agree - I am starting to wonder if the races will be delayed and delayed until the wind favours USA ......

in a nutshell dude

[jasonu]

in a nutshell dude

Nutcase more like.

[BMWST?]

That Oracle boat is a "rocketship" ... the American team just did not know how to sail her .... ETNZ showed them how it's done!

ETNZ boat is "agricultural" by comparison and as they always insist the fastest boat will win the cup!

Unless the American team make a mistake or suffer a gear failure ETNZ will probably not win another race! :no:

The ETNZ performance will probably deteriorate and so will morale etc, they will start arguing among themselves and playing the blame game!

Oracle on the other hand will probably go from strength to strength and all the "luck" will go their way ... greatest comeback since sliced bread! etc etc etc! :rolleyes:

Still compelling viewing with the odds set the way they are at this stage! :niceone:
Eh?
If anything it is apparent that oracle is set up for specific conditions,this is a sport where things can happen,it's bound to happen to Oracle too

[phill-k]

Until they win this thing they are simply just the best of the rest and so far that's the best they can hope for or "raise the anti" and ...... actually , WIN! :first:

Luck has nothing to do with it! :oi-grr:

Having spent 48 of my 55 yrs sailing am going to disagree with ya, luck does play a part in the end result, and these races have certainly demonstrated that - 44.5 degs instead of laying the ship down, wind shifts going TNZ's way and Oracles as well, however the odds of Oracle being able to take out the next 6 races is stacked against them, TAB are giving odds on TNZ winning of 1.01, and they are just working the odds, not interested in the sailing. However much as I love our team Spithill & Anslie as a team are probably the best in the world, we won the first five whilst Oracle played catch up are we that far behind now that we can't take one win out of the next 6 no I don't think so, but I do love the fact the sponsors are really getting their moneys worth, there is much more support in NZ for this effort than the allblacks had for the world cup, and thats saying something - perhaps the fact that any ordinary kiwi can pronounce all the names of the kiwi crew and know where they come from, where as with the allblacks most of us have no idea where most of the team originate from!! or is this sailing just really edge of the seat stuff?
Luck - Oracle get a halyard tangle that and favourable wind shifts see TNZ out to a 1300 mtr lead luck? Oracle get to race another day we run out of time - luck?

[Road kill]

Having spent 48 of my 55 yrs sailing am going to disagree with ya, luck does play a part in the end result, and these races have certainly demonstrated that - 44.5 degs instead of laying the ship down, wind shifts going TNZ's way and Oracles as well, however the odds of Oracle being able to take out the next 6 races is stacked against them, TAB are giving odds on TNZ winning of 1.01, and they are just working the odds, not interested in the sailing. However much as I love our team Spithill & Anslie as a team are probably the best in the world, we won the first five whilst Oracle played catch up are we that far behind now that we can't take one win out of the next 6 no I don't think so, but I do love the fact the sponsors are really getting their moneys worth, there is much more support in NZ for this effort than the allblacks had for the world cup, and thats saying something - perhaps the fact that any ordinary kiwi can pronounce all the names of the kiwi crew and know where they come from, where as with the allblacks most of us have no idea where most of the team originate from!! or is this sailing just really edge of the seat stuff?


Edge of the seat stuff,,get real who would care if it wasn't a Kiwi team involved ?

So far I've watched exactly one full race and even that was a forgone conclusion by the halfway mark.

Ordinary "white" Kiwi's should get the fuck over themselves.

[phill-k]

Edge of the seat stuff,,get real who would care if it wasn't a Kiwi team involved ?

So far I've watched exactly one full race and even that was a forgone conclusion by the halfway mark.

Ordinary "white" Kiwi's should get the fuck over themselves.

I guess you have to understand what this is all about, if you are patriotic its about NZer's up against the best in the world using both our innovative abilities and the kiwi can do attitude, we see this n many things, rugby, soccer, hokey.
In addition to this both teams go out there every day knowing they are tenths or hundredths of a second from disaster, and possibly causing or being involved in death, these boats are lethal, that is why the wind limits are in place, pitchpole as we have seen already means one minute you are at sea level and within microseconds 50 - 70 ft in the air being tossed at 20 = 40 knots with the real possibility of hulls, wings or what ever coming down on top of you, Barker and Spithill have the lives of their crews in their hands what other sport places that much pressure on its team leader? - What do you do for a living? clean toilets or perhaps write computer programs, thrilling is it?

[MD]

Two Questions for anyone who actually knows jack shit about sailing - that's definitely not me.

We all watch eagerly as the lads grind away cranking those winches around and around and then back the other way.
With traditional sailing boats you can see ROPES being pulled in by the winches, this way and that, attached to the booms and sails or whatever. You can see what they do. BUT WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE WINCHES/PUMPS/HANDLES actually doing? What are they attached too? Are they secretly cranking a propeller? All this talk we can hear of 'more hydraulics'. Hydraulic what? It's not a digger with a bucket on the front is it.

Secondly, call me ignorant, but I can't see any rudder in the water, so just what is the 'steering wheel' turning? Clearly somehow they can turn on a dime but watching there is no obvious swinging sideways of the sails or foils? Just the hydrofoils at the rear and the centre boards that they lift up and down. But these don't seem to rotate sideways like a rudder does. I realise they can vary the angle on these foils for lift but what is steering the bloody boat?

And no bright spark say they counter steer.

[BMWST?]

Two Questions for anyone who actually knows jack shit about sailing - that's definitely not me.

We all watch eagerly as the lads grind away cranking those winches around and around and then back the other way.
With traditional sailing boats you can see ROPES being pulled in by the winches, this way and that, attached to the booms and sails or whatever. You can see what they do. BUT WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE WINCHES/PUMPS/HANDLES actually doing? What are they attached too? Are they secretly cranking a propeller? All this talk we can hear of 'more hydraulics'. Hydraulic what? It's not a digger with a bucket on the front is it.

Secondly, call me ignorant, but I can't see any rudder in the water, so just what is the 'steering wheel' turning? Clearly somehow they can turn on a dime but watching there is no obvious swinging sideways of the sails or foils? Just the hydrofoils at the rear and the centre boards that they lift up and down. But these don't seem to rotate sideways like a rudder does. I realise they can vary the angle on these foils for lift but what is steering the bloody boat?

And no bright spark say they counter steer.


They Counter steer them







The "winches"(at least some of them) are hydraulic pumps.I know they need hydrailic pressure to change the shape of the wing(sail).They need to change the shape of the wing everytime they change direction.If they dont they get pressure from the wrong side and tip the thiing over...I dont know what else is hydraulic.They dont look like rudders but i think the boards near the back are the rudders

[oldrider]

Racing prediction for today: Oracle 2 ... ETNZ 0 Anxieties on full alert for tomorrow! :sweatdrop

[awa355]

Racing prediction for today: Oracle 2 ... ETNZ 0 Anxieties on full alert for tomorrow! :sweatdrop

I hope so, The wife is watching the TV1 build up. Jeezus! talk about childrens television. :baby::baby:

[oldrider]

OK brains trust ... who or what decides port or starboard entry on start up?

I have listened and watched for this to be explained and nobody ever tells us, do they toss or what? :confused:

[george formby]

OK brains trust ... who or what decides port or starboard entry on start up?

I have listened and watched for this to be explained and nobody ever tells us, do they toss or what? :confused:

IIRC the defender chooses where they want to start in the first race & it goes turn about after that.

[wysper]

Looks like the cup is going to Oracle or to court.

[oldrider]

IIRC the defender chooses where they want to start in the first race & it goes turn about after that.

So how do Oracle get two (favourable) port entries on one day? (this will definitely go down to the wire, then ETNZ will pull one out of the hat!)

[george formby]

Ha, i may not have recalled correctly then, not sure where that little nugget came from.:shutup:

[The Reibz]

Chokers. They are going to lose big time. The hate is flowing on all social media channels. Sore loser kiwis, typical as.
My moneys on oracle and a nation of over confident cry babys

[wysper]

I don't think they are choking.
I think US has been able to pour more money into improvements on the boat.
The crew work has really come on in leaps and bounds.
Their technical sailing is much better than at the start.

ETNZ hasn't improved at the same rate so have been caught and now passed by OTUSA.

[oldrider]

Two (favourable?) port entries for ETNZ tomorrow similar conditions as today so if they don't clean it up tomorrow it looks like curtains (fail) for their challenge! :doh:

[The Reibz]

I see how this is going to end. They will choke right up until the last five minutes, Barker will get subed off for Steven Donald and NZ will clinch the victory!

[Maha]

I don't think they are choking.
I think US has been able to pour more money into improvements on the boat.
The crew work has really come on in leaps and bounds.
Their technical sailing is much better than at the start.

ETNZ hasn't improved at the same rate so have been caught and now passed by OTUSA.

An accurate assessment, the concerning stat for ETNZ will be that OTUSA have won 7 races to their 8, granted the scoreboard looks different and ETNZ should still win this, but another two to OTUSA tomorrow and things will look grim.

[ckai]

I don't think they are choking.
I think US has been able to pour more money into improvements on the boat.
The crew work has really come on in leaps and bounds.
Their technical sailing is much better than at the start.

ETNZ hasn't improved at the same rate so have been caught and now passed by OTUSA.

That's exactly way TNZ have said right from the start, and especially when they only had one race left, that's it's never over and to never count the chickens bla bla. They knew Oracle had the most to improve and they also had the resources to drastically change the boat if needed. TNZ knew exactly where they stood and was essentially just waiting for the beast to awake.

I really do hope TNZ don't put their heads in the hole and actually get that win. I love Oracles fighting spirit, and in a way both teams deserve to win, but I think, not just because I'm kiwi, that TNZ deserve the win slightly more. They were heaps more prepared, they had heaps less resources and they're essentially the ones that have pushed the boundaries.

Two (favourable?) port entries for ETNZ tomorrow similar conditions as today so if they don't clean it up tomorrow it looks like curtains (fail) for their challenge! :doh:

Rules were decided back last year that the boat who picks the morning start doesn't pick the morning start the next day. The afternoon start pick goes to whoever didn't pick in the morning.

The crews decided on these rules and it was made when the limits were 5-33 knots so no one thought racing would ever be put off.

When the racing gets put off, those races have to replayed hence how they get double ups on start sides.

The rules were put in place to eliminate any advantage of the morning crew also having one side to start or vice versa, i.e. port might have an advantage in the lighter morning air. It's a good idea in theory. But since Oracle cried about wind limits back in the start (yes it was them that changed things), it's screwed everything up.

[awa355]

Questions, the two points that Oracle were docked for an illegal boat earlier, was that a different boat than this one they are racing with now?

Was it a different series to this finals cup challenge? Did that illegal boat make any difference to having these two boats in this final?

If not, then I reckon they have grounds to appeal.

Seems to me to be a bit like having a motogp team penalised two wins for a illegal moto2 bike from the same team.

[Maha]

Questions, the two points that Oracle were docked for an illegal boat earlier, was that a different boat than this one they are racing with now?

Was it a different series to this finals cup challenge? Did that illegal boat make any difference to having these two boats in this final?

If not, then I reckon they have grounds to appeal.

Seems to me to be a bit like having a motogp team penalised two wins for a illegal moto2 bike from the same team.

Cannot appeal that decision, it has been talked about on the radio this morning and the judging panel (who ever the hell they were) their say is final, no amount of money will see an appeal take place, word was ''it's is just scare tactics''.

[awa355]

Cannot appeal that decision, it has been talked about on the radio this morning and the judging panel (who ever the hell they were) their say is final, no amount of money will see an appeal take place, word was ''it's is just scare tactics''.

Just as well, poor buggar couldn't afford to lodge a challenge anyway. I see he has taken a cut in his salary of $78 million.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=11128567

Maybe we could pass the hat around to help him out? :doh:

[Mental Trousers]

Maybe we could pass the hat around to help him out? :doh:

Yeah nah, already helping that prick out to the tune of $10,000 (approx) per RU

[oldrider]

Tomorrow at the end of racing it will probably be, ETNZ 8 ... OUSA 7 (9) and game over, (one way or t'other) on Wednesday!

Everybody will have saved face by then! (makes you wonder whether it's all been a big conspiracy to make it an exciting successful event! $$$$$$) :corn:

[The Reibz]

Straight up match fixing. Barker getting paid 20mil to take the hit hahaha

[Maha]

Out of the last 9 races, OTUSA have won 6-3. Tomorrow ETNZ have the favoured port side start, what will be the reason/excuse to not race?

News just in, they are re writing the lyrics to Sailing away, new song title is Fading away.

[leathel]

we have only had 1 port advantage in the last 4 races, and that was when they has to change the entry boy because of the wind direction which negated the port advantage, so essentially 1 in 5 starts we have had port, The first to mark one with boats of the same speed almost calls the race with these boats

I have no idea how the starts went that way but that's how they have been

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmbRX6EQ5Tg&list=PL4jyS1DaVhX_4sSOARbcOObnqywOkRz...

Much nicer listening to these announcers as I feel they are more factual and less emotional. :)

http://www.cupinfo.com/cupstats/

[Mental Trousers]

People who have written ETNZ off already need a fucken good hard kick in the crotch. What sort of worthless individuals give up when the opposition still need to win 5 to our 1?? Such a total lack of commitment is typical of spineless wonders who jump from one bandwagon to the next and who can't handle pressure.

When ETNZ do the business those doubting windbags will no doubt claim that they always knew it'd happen, they really did support ETNZ and they were just winding everyone up.

Bullshit.

Pick a team and back them to the end.

[oldrider]

Pick a team and back them to the end.

Why? I don't need to pick a team, frankly I don't give a stuff which one wins, although I do tend to favour ETNZ as the under dog! :corn:

[Mental Trousers]

Why? I don't need to pick a team, frankly I don't give a stuff which one wins, although I do tend to favour ETNZ as the under dog! :corn:

If you're not going to pick a team how about you fark off then.

[oldrider]

So it's compulsory to pick a team now ... more rule changes than the cup it's self!

Well if ETNZ can't win one tomorrow, with favourable port entries, I guess even you will be starting to have doubts! ... It's just entertainment to me! :corn:

[awa355]

Either ETNZ will win, or that Arab owned boat will lose to a yacht owned by Ellison.

[kinger]

My sister in law's boyfriend is some kind of coaching liason for Sailing NZ.
We had them down the weekend.
I could've stabbed the prick in the face today with his nonstop huffing and harrumphing.
Sounded like a thirteen year old who's been told to eat his runner beans.

[skippa1]

People who have written ETNZ off already need a fucken good hard kick in the crotch. What sort of worthless individuals give up when the opposition still need to win 5 to our 1?? Such a total lack of commitment is typical of spineless wonders who jump from one bandwagon to the next and who can't handle pressure.

When ETNZ do the business those doubting windbags will no doubt claim that they always knew it'd happen, they really did support ETNZ and they were just winding everyone up.

Bullshit.

Pick a team and back them to the end.

Im not one to agree with the boss usually but he's right ya know

Right, right, you're bloody well right
You got a bloody right to say
Right, you're bloody well right
You know you got a right to say

Ha ha you're bloody well right
You know you're right to say
Yeah yeah you're bloody well right
You know you're right to say
And me, I don't care anyway ( I do ya know)

[Winston001]

People who have written ETNZ off already need a fucken good hard kick in the crotch. What sort of worthless individuals give up when the opposition still need to win 5 to our 1?? Such a total lack of commitment is typical of spineless wonders who jump from one bandwagon to the next and who can't handle pressure.



Pick a team and back them to the end.

Yeah, understood and there is wisdom in what you say. Determination in the face of bad odds, the little guy winning in spite of almost being crushed. Elite sportspeople have that extra mongrel spirit that allows them to carry on despite the pain etc. We all remember Buck continuing to play with his scrotum ripped open. Faarg...


What bothers me is the TV One commentators don't acknowledge that Oracle are now sailing fine races. They look to have the better boat. Recognising that isn't disloyal to TNZ.

And...its only a very specialised yachting match, not a race to cure cancer.

[Ocean1]

Pick a team and back them to the end.

Depends on who you see as the team.

Both boats are the result of some very clever kiwi design work.

So for a technophile we can't lose, particularly as the American Kiwi boat needed some dramatically succesful tweaking by a bunch of imported kiwi techies in order to foot it with the Kiwi Kiwi boat.

So no matter who wins we need to make sure that the world knows it was a Kiwi boat with a large number of Kiwi crew.

[Berries]

So for a technophile we can't lose, particularly as the American Kiwi boat needed some dramatically succesful tweaking by a bunch of imported kiwi techies in order to foot it with the Kiwi Kiwi boat.
Burn them.

Oh hang on, I am 48 hours early.

[mossy1200]

If it gets to 8/7 and then we win the 9th it will get raced in court appeals over the 2 penalty races and the negative 2 start.
Take years to decide the winner and cost 3 times the price of the boats.
Racing decided by the American Lawyers Cup holder.

[Mental Trousers]

What bothers me is the TV One commentators don't acknowledge that Oracle are now sailing fine races. They look to have the better boat. Recognising that isn't disloyal to TNZ.

Certainly. Oracle definitely have the most improved boat and also their teamwork has come on in leaps and bounds, but that's not what I'm talking about. There's lots of people that are already labelling ETNZ as chokers because Larry Ellison's money, some luck and much improved teamwork has won the last 5 days. Apparently having 3 races that ETNZ were leading cancelled means they can't close the deal. It's those sort of toss pots that piss me off, not people who rightfully point out that Oracle are probably now the better team/boat.

[Mental Trousers]

Depends on who you see as the team.

Either ETNZ or Oracle. That's it.


Both boats are the result of some very clever kiwi design work.

So for a technophile we can't lose, particularly as the American Kiwi boat needed some dramatically succesful tweaking by a bunch of imported kiwi techies in order to foot it with the Kiwi Kiwi boat.

So no matter who wins we need to make sure that the world knows it was a Kiwi boat with a large number of Kiwi crew.

I'm absolutely loving the technical side of this series. Larry Ellison maybe a prize cock but he said he was going to change the America's Cup racing and he has.

[oldrider]

I'm absolutely loving the technical side of this series. Larry Ellison maybe a prize cock but he said he was going to change the America's Cup racing and he has.

Exactly the same enjoyment that I am getting from this cup!

All the talk has been how advantageous "port entry" has been to Oracle ... well today ETNZ has that advantage everything else being equal, will ETNZ capitulate?

Today "should be the day"! Or will they run out of time again? :mellow:

[Mental Trousers]

I'm all for a close series but if it wasn't for the 2 race penalty that Oracle got the score would be ETNZ 8-7 Oracle. That's close enough for me. Time to win the thing.

[oldrider]

On current evidence the "race" has become a "parade" and the cup will be won when Oracle gets to nine wins! :mellow:

Well at least ETNZ set the benchmark but (unfortunately) Oracle have seized the moment, ETNZ can only hope for them to make a mistake or break down!

Reality?

Hopefully higher wind conditions will favour the ETNZ boat after all and might be so tomorrow with a bit of "luck"! :yes:

[leathel]

We NEED TO WIN THE START

Racing is boring with two boats that are pretty much the same pace..... Used to be the trailing boat could block the wind going down it..... But these boats go faster so once you have that lead you leave dirty wind to the second boat...... You have to win the start to get the clean breeze to make a win, unless someone stuffs up and today they didn't

Yesterday when we shot up on them was great until we dropped of the foils, hard to get your head around the fact they had to turn away due to the hole in the wind from the boat in front...they could have gone right but then get blocked in to the boundary

Old school boats could have sail by as the wind comes from behind...head twisting stuff

[The Reibz]

As a supporter of a team which also chokes at the critical moment I feel the pain of ETNZ fans.
Go the Warriors for 2014...

[Oscar]

Any truth to the rumour that the NZ boat has been renamed "Greg Norman"?

[leathel]

As a supporter of a team which also chokes at the critical moment I feel the pain of ETNZ fans.
Go the Warriors for 2014...


I would hardly call it a choke... TNZ did a reasonable defend of the start but the defend cost momentum so Spital did the better job, the light the wind the harder to defend the start...

We had boat speed on them now we don't

[ckai]

Choking is only dreamt up by "supporters" who need an excuse to not support a losing side anymore.

From my point of view, TNZ must win the next race. The score stands 8 races each. The next race is the decider. Ignore the 2 race penalty. If they win the next race, there will be no court action (no grounds for it) and the better team will win.

Personally I just wanna see Spittle cry. I got pissed off hearing him bleat on about how much they've gone through and how much was taken from them. Two sides to every story ya git. TNZ got 2 races TAKEN from them when they would have clearly won. I don't count the one that was cancelled at the start. Kinda bittersweet that race control has now decided that the time limit will be a subjective decision with around a 10 min leeway. No shit!

Moving on. The last race is gonna be a fucken rippa!!:headbang:

[oldrider]

We NEED TO WIN THE START

Perhaps that should read ..... "WE NEED TO WIN THE FINISH"

[Maha]

Perhaps that should read ..... "WE NEED TO WIN THE FINISH"

...and I can't see that happening anytime soon to be honest. ETNZ seem to have lost what ever it was they had two weeks ago. Oracle are in a commanding place (psychologically) right now I hate to say it but, they are the better performing boat on the water.
ETNZ had the ''much favoured'' start position today and still could not out sail Oracle.
I don't really care where the cup goes but it would pretty cool to see ETNZ win it, if only to see the look on Larry Ellison's face.

[oldrider]

Then again without Larry Ellison this fantastic technical aquatic spectacle would never have even happened! :first:

[Mental Trousers]

Choking is only dreamt up by "supporters" who need an excuse to not support a losing side anymore.

From my point of view, TNZ must win the next race. The score stands 8 races each. The next race is the decider. Ignore the 2 race penalty. If they win the next race, there will be no court action (no grounds for it) and the better team will win.

Personally I just wanna see Spittle cry. I got pissed off hearing him bleat on about how much they've gone through and how much was taken from them. Two sides to every story ya git. TNZ got 2 races TAKEN from them when they would have clearly won. I don't count the one that was cancelled at the start. Kinda bittersweet that race control has now decided that the time limit will be a subjective decision with around a 10 min leeway. No shit!

Moving on. The last race is gonna be a fucken rippa!!:headbang:

You're onto it.

[Mental Trousers]

...and I can't see that happening anytime soon to be honest. ETNZ seem to have lost what ever it was they had two weeks ago. Oracle are in a commanding place (psychologically) right now I hate to say it but, they are the better performing boat on the water.
ETNZ had the ''much favoured'' start position today and still could not out sail Oracle.
I don't really care where the cup goes but it would pretty cool to see ETNZ win it, if only to see the look on Larry Ellison's face.

Oracle threw lots of money, personal and resources to catch up to ETNZ and they're now a much better outfit with a faster boat. ETNZ could do the same if someone had a few hundred million dollars to make things happen overnight.

[98tls]

Dunno about chokers but NZ seems to have turned into a nation of whingers (little England i guess) and doubters,have a little faith eh its not over till its over.At least its exciting.:first:

[unstuck]

Im not hearing any fat bitches singing.:Punk::Punk:

[oldrider]

So OK I will get jumped on for saying this but that start this morning was so pathetic, in fighting terms it looked as if they took a dive!

The great accolades of advantage that has been given to Oracle from the port entry was even more so from their starboard entry this morning!

It was like Oh excuse me, you go first Oracle we will be along shortly! (something is not right here!) :shifty:

[Mental Trousers]

That start wasn't flash. They dropped too much speed, Oracle had a couple of knots more and when you're a little slower it takes much, much longer to get up to speed.

The key to the start is staying fast, don't drop speed.

[Brian d marge]

Im not hearing any fat bitches singing.:Punk::Punk:

you tube , Liz shaw

Stephen

[oldrider]

Just listened to a news item re Dean Barker on this mornings race where he claimed that ETNZ is still confidence of winning! :rolleyes:

Spithill on the other hand is talking the walk about no mercy, they are working their ring pieces out and improving all the time!

The worry for ETNZ is what planet they are on, all the evidence has been in Spithill and Oracles court for days now! .... Hello Dean, hello! :wacko:

Unless they are aware of something that we are not privy to, what can he possibly be basing his supreme cool confidence on? :facepalm:

(especially if ETNZ win the cup in the last gasp minutes of the very last race, which should/could be tomorrow)

[nerrrd]

It's just so goddamn disappointing, after all that effort and now it looks like they'll come up short, and not just because of the quality of the opposition, seems circumstances have conspired against them as well.

Still, the boats are an impressive achievement regardless of who's sailing them.

[phill-k]

The worry for ETNZ is what planet they are on, all the evidence has been in Spithill and Oracles court for days now! .... Hello Dean, hello! :wacko:

Hello what planet are you on do you really think that ETNZ, the management, the skipper and each and every member of that team is not 100% aware of where they are at? Dean Barkers style is much the same as many NZ top sportsman rightly or wrongly they show no / very little emotion, are you not listening to the knowledgeable commentators such as Chris Dickson, and our two in San Fran, who actually understand what is happening. Or tune in on youtube and listern to the American commentators, they are all saying the same things.

We are up against a team and a boat that entered this regatta behind the 8ball (for some reason) it is quite probable that their boat always had the potential to be the better boat, their team has now certainly matched our own, and that has now become very obvious in the results from the last 6 races. We did not lose the start today rather Spithill won it with skill and perhaps a margin of luck, both boats were at the line .5 of a second after the gun, Oracles boat was quicker on the foils, due to faster speed when turning for the line and perhaps a point of difference in the two boats abilities , both teams from that point made zero mistakes, if we had managed to lead at the first mark the cup would now be ours, that is how close the two boats performance is.

As in any match racing it is 99% boat and skill and 1% lady luck and the wind gods, she has been toying with ETNZ, tomorrow for the Team really is just another day at the office, there is nothing more they can do, that they are not already doing, the effort all the team are putting in is supreme, how about giving Dean and the team some credit they are totally focused on this, you obviously have little understanding of the intricacies of what they are doing and are up against

[Edbear]

It's just so goddamn disappointing, after all that effort and now it looks like they'll come up short, and not just because of the quality of the opposition, seems circumstances have conspired against them as well.

Still, the boats are an impressive achievement regardless of who's sailing them.

I agree, were it not for the rules about wind speed and time, we would have won the cup several races back. What has conspired has allowed Oracle the time they needed to get their boat and boat handling sorted.

[oldrider]

you obviously have little understanding of the intricacies of what they are doing and are up against

That is simply your opinion but you are allowed to express it if you wish, just as I am allowed to express mine.

The Americas cup is a very big business and for a very large group a lifestyle that as stakeholders they will not let it fail or their rice bowl will be gone! $$$$$$

Question.

If Oracle retain the cup, are they actually guaranteed to be able to defend it again in San Francisco or will they be required to find another venue?

[Brian d marge]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/7XIIO-fyUEw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NZ needs to get a bit cut throat and stop being so nice

Stephen

[300weatherby]

So OK I will get jumped on for saying this but that start this morning was so pathetic, in fighting terms it looked as if they took a dive!

The great accolades of advantage that has been given to Oracle from the port entry was even more so from their starboard entry this morning!

It was like Oh excuse me, you go first Oracle we will be along shortly! (something is not right here!) :shifty:

Yeah, I don't get why Barker didn't tack over the Spitboy before or at the line, same as he was on the end of, the previous couple of starts, they could have still got to turn one first despite the extra speed of the other boat by forcing him to take the long way there, could have forced him clean out to the boundry and turned it into match racing starting with advantage.

[onearmedbandit]

Just listened to a news item re Dean Barker on this mornings race where he claimed that ETNZ is still confidence of winning! :rolleyes:

Spithill on the other hand is talking the walk about no mercy, they are working their ring pieces out and improving all the time!

The worry for ETNZ is what planet they are on, all the evidence has been in Spithill and Oracles court for days now! .... Hello Dean, hello! :wacko:

Unless they are aware of something that we are not privy to, what can he possibly be basing his supreme cool confidence on? :facepalm:

(especially if ETNZ win the cup in the last gasp minutes of the very last race, which should/could be tomorrow)

Shit, what are you doing here?? What at the very least you should be contacting ETNZ to inform them of their situation, or be on the first plane to San Fran. and let the boys know personally. And make sure you tell Dean as well to look more glum about things and say how they really do suck.

[oldrider]

Well even you would have to admit it's bordering on sensational and fascicle at the same time a complete paradox even! :sweatdrop

So what will today bring then? :shifty:

[unstuck]

So OK I will get jumped on for saying this but that start this morning was so pathetic, in fighting terms it looked as if they took a dive!

The great accolades of advantage that has been given to Oracle from the port entry was even more so from their starboard entry this morning!

It was like Oh excuse me, you go first Oracle we will be along shortly! (something is not right here!) :shifty:

I was out at a farm yesterday where they were tailing lambs and the tailing gang had stopped for smoko, not being one to miss out on a good cuppa, I joined them. The talk was of the americas cup race, and the whole gang thought that the kiwis are throwing the race deliberately. To me it just sounded like they were looking for excuses because they cannot stand the thought of losing, and basically making shit up.:facepalm:

[oldrider]

Remember the nose dive ETNZ did while practising/racing out here ... well Oracle haven't experienced one of those yet and stiffer conditions could produce that!

If they do ETNZ will surely be the benefactor ... been there done all that stuff! (Oracle might just be a little too cocky now)

[pzkpfw]

I get that there are rules and all, and the "windward boat must give way" thing must have a reason, but it seemed as much to me that Oracle steered into us as anything. Two penalties seems a bit "harsh" for that. Given the winner of the start seems to mostly win the race - it seems any down-wind boat could just "push" the upwind boat out of that start box, and guarantee the race.

Add that to the wind too high too low stuff killing 3 (or was it 4?) races we'd have won - I'm getting over it.

Sigh.


Disclaimer: I know nothing.

[Katman]

It's looking more and more like the America's Cup will be decided in court.

[pzkpfw]

It's looking more and more like the America's Cup will be decided in court.

Eh?

If Oracle win on the water, do you think the Kiwis will take it to court over something?

(I get how if it's the other way Oracle might try to fight their penalty races.)

[oldrider]

At least they tried today, to try and fail is better than never to try at all ... I'm happy with that race, the boat can still compete! :yes:

[Katman]

Eh?

If Oracle win on the water, do you think the Kiwis will take it to court over something?

(I get how if it's the other way Oracle might try to fight their penalty races.)

No, obviously if Oracle win then that's a done deal.

If NZ win either of the next two races though Oracle will no doubt head straight for court.

[Mental Trousers]

I get that there are rules and all, and the "windward boat must give way" thing must have a reason, but it seemed as much to me that Oracle steered into us as anything. Two penalties seems a bit "harsh" for that. Given the winner of the start seems to mostly win the race - it seems any down-wind boat could just "push" the upwind boat out of that start box, and guarantee the race.

Add that to the wind too high too low stuff killing 3 (or was it 4?) races we'd have won - I'm getting over it.

Sigh.


Disclaimer: I know nothing.

That's the rules of sailing. The when they're overlapped on a reach like in the start box the leeward boat has all the rights. Oracle turned and ETNZ had no choice but to get out of there. Unfortunately, they had no speed to complete a turn and Oracle got the penalty.

I must say 18 days of this is really starting to wear me out. But what a spectacle.

[oldrider]

This time .... :first: Edit: Damn it No, totally blitzed ... in every frigging department but the start!

[Trade_nancy]

Oh fuck...

[Edbear]

Unless ETNZ have been sandbagging and deliberately losing, Oracle have the better team and will win tomorrow. They have simply been outsailing NZ. NZ are capable of winning, but Oracle are not making any mistakes and are damn fast!

[Paul in NZ]

And full credit where its due - BOTH teams have turned on a stunning spectacle... Oracle have come from behind and turned on a blinding performance that will be discussed for years... Whoever wins tomorrow will certainly be worthy holders...

[Edbear]

And full credit where its due - BOTH teams have turned on a stunning spectacle... Oracle have come from behind and turned on a blinding performance that will be discussed for years... Whoever wins tomorrow will certainly be worthy holders...

I agree, whoever wins will deserve it. But I am still of the opinion we were robbed by the rules on wind speeds and timing and would have had it a long time ago. Oracle were granted a reprieve to bring their team and boat up to match, and credit to them, they've done it.

The other point I make is that it's not really and American team is it? For all his bluster, Spittal, an Aussi, is a very good match racer and were it not for NZ input, Oracle would be nowhere near where they are now. Is there in fact an American on their boat at all?

[oldrider]

Well any other form of Americas cup racing other than these big fast out there on the edge boats will be pretty tame to watch from now on!

ETNZ can hold their heads high for their low budget effort but the Oracle team are clearly supreme now!

I still can't help hanging in there for a miracle last ditch finish tomorrow but .... fact is, it's not very likely on evidence so far! :facepalm:

[Gremlin]

Jumping the gun slightly, but as it stands, Oracle will likely win the final match required (if not they'd probably head to court).

The sad part about it, for me, is I think it doubtful that ETNZ would contest another cup, because the money required has got so ridiculous almost no-one can stomach it. Hell, Ellison is paying for almost the entire cup I'd imagine (paying for TV etc). Since no other team is really competitive either, it would either be someone buying the NZ setup, or another cup not taking place...

[jellywrestler]

Unless ETNZ have been sandbagging and deliberately losing, you really have lost the plot; utterly and completely Ed!!!!

[Edbear]

you really have lost the plot; utterly and completely Ed!!!!

LOL!!! Maybe, that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but reality is they are not going to win on their current form.

[Paul in NZ]

LOL!!! Maybe, that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but reality is they are not going to win on their current form.

They probably need one of your flash batteries Ed....

[Edbear]

They probably need one of your flash batteries Ed....

Yeah, they certainly need some kind of a charge up! I'd actually be interested in knowing what battereis they are using. I doubt they'd use lead acid, for sure.

[ellipsis]

...i still want the fast boat with no sails to win...that really would be most spectacular for the whole of mankind...well,for those that know what a yacht is...or what the America's Cup is or what real food looks like or those who may be influenced one way or another to give a fuck...Dean may go out there and slay the opposition tomorrow...then we can get on with the nationals and the elections and christmas and...and...and....being a little country with some extremely clever people who mostly spend their time and money over in other countries...GO!, Team Emulate New Zealand...thats the fast one with no sails, I think?...

[onearmedbandit]

What's more embarrassing than losing the cup from a 8-1 advantage?

Listening to all the Kiwi's who at 8-1 were calling the cup ours already and immortalising Dean Barker who are now rubbishing the team, calling them chokers and calling for Barkers head.

The way I see it, good on ETNZ. They dominated in the lead-up to the cup to make it to the finals. The dominated Oracle in the first 10 races, forcing Oracle to make changes just to keep in the game. There is no reason for any NZ'er to hold their head low if we lose tomorrow. Oh unless you are the quintessential 'Kiwi' whose self-belief rides in the ability of others to make you feel significant.

[phill-k]

What's more embarrassing than losing the cup from a 8-1 advantage?

Listening to all the Kiwi's who at 8-1 were calling the cup ours already and immortalising Dean Barker who are now rubbishing the team, calling them chokers and calling for Barkers head.

The way I see it, good on ETNZ. They dominated in the lead-up to the cup to make it to the finals. The dominated Oracle in the first 10 races, forcing Oracle to make changes just to keep in the game. There is no reason for any NZ'er to hold their head low if we lose tomorrow. Oh unless you are the quintessential 'Kiwi' whose self-belief rides in the ability of others to make you feel significant.

Good post oab, ETNZ are now up against a team who have reached their potential, team and boat wise, they were very slow to the start but have developed at an incredible pace, and now the cup is theirs for the taking, Spithill has done a brilliant job turning his team around. Dean Barker has also, he has extracted 100% from his team and his boat at the end of the day this was also about new designs and technology, we have reached our teams zenith Oracle may still be a notch away from theirs, WE HAVE NOT CHOKED simply it is now coming down to the best package.

[ac3_snow]

help for Oracle arrived from New Zealand via experts and equipment from Core Builders Composites in Warkworth.

The company is a 100 per cent-owned subsidiary of Oracle, producing the wingsails, foils and appendages for the AC72s. It also built the smaller AC45s that were at the centre of Oracle's cheating scandal.

This is an interesting article about the kiwis who helped Oracle improve their boat
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/9203760/Kiwi-expertise-behind-Oracles-Cup-resurgence

Also read somewhere else that Oracle have had the 'measurement team' examine their boat for re-certification 15 times, NZ have not been idle though going through the same 8 times. Information about the actual changes made is not publicly available.

Still holding out hope that we can bring it home tomorrow!

[MisterD]

What's more embarrassing than losing the cup from a 8-1 advantage?

Getting emotionally involved with one Auckland-built boat because it's got a picture of a Buzzy Bee on it, versus another Auckland-built boat which doesn't?

I reckon this is a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for Ellison. Win the cup and kill the comp because nobody wants to match budgets with you.

[rickstv]

Name and shame the 14 bastards who flew up to San Fran to make the yank boat go fast.

These buggers are the ones who may spoil the opportunity of lots of boat refits and sales to overseas clients for the next 5 years.

May even be their own jobs that suffer, good job.

And don't forget all the revamping of the waterfront East of Westhaven that may not now go ahead.

Rick.

[Paul in NZ]

What's more embarrassing than losing the cup from a 8-1 advantage?

Listening to all the Kiwi's who at 8-1 were calling the cup ours already and immortalising Dean Barker who are now rubbishing the team, calling them chokers and calling for Barkers head.

The way I see it, good on ETNZ. They dominated in the lead-up to the cup to make it to the finals. The dominated Oracle in the first 10 races, forcing Oracle to make changes just to keep in the game. There is no reason for any NZ'er to hold their head low if we lose tomorrow. Oh unless you are the quintessential 'Kiwi' whose self-belief rides in the ability of others to make you feel significant.

Yup - quite right.

The whole thing has gone from yawn to must watch... Drama all right... Has to be the most interesting yachting tussle of all time so no shame in coming second... Having said that I really feel for the NZ guys... Must be wondering what else they can do?

[Paul in NZ]

Name and shame the 14 bastards who flew up to San Fran to make the yank boat go fast.

These buggers are the ones who may spoil the opportunity of lots of boat refits and sales to overseas clients for the next 5 years.

May even be their own jobs that suffer, good job.

And don't forget all the revamping of the waterfront East of Westhaven that may not now go ahead.

Rick.


Oh come off it... There will be shed loads of work for people who want fast high tech boats. As for revamping a bit of Auckland waterfront... Seriously???

[oldrider]

Oracle has always looked as if it should be fast but now that it is, how would it cope with one of these? http://www.radiosport.co.nz/video/video-team-new-zealand-race-one-august18-2013

Could make all the difference in that last crucial race and determine the overall result ... it's never over till it's over! :shifty:

[Edbear]

Name and shame the 14 bastards who flew up to San Fran to make the yank boat go fast.

These buggers are the ones who may spoil the opportunity of lots of boat refits and sales to overseas clients for the next 5 years.

May even be their own jobs that suffer, good job.

And don't forget all the revamping of the waterfront East of Westhaven that may not now go ahead.

Rick.


Yup - quite right.

The whole thing has gone from yawn to must watch... Drama all right... Has to be the most interesting yachting tussle of all time so no shame in coming second... Having said that I really feel for the NZ guys... Must be wondering what else they can do?

More proof that NZ leads the world in yachting, both in design/build and in matching the best of the best as sailors. Larry Ellison knows that and he's invested a lot of USD in setting up the Warkworth factory to the benefit of local talent and jobs. If he's a fair man, he will give credit where credit is due.

[phill-k]

Oracle has always looked as if it should be fast but now that it is, how would it cope with one of these? http://www.radiosport.co.nz/video/video-team-new-zealand-race-one-august18-2013

Could make all the difference in that last crucial race and determine the overall result ... it's never over till it's over! :shifty:

Thats exactly what is being said they have emulated team NZ and in lots of ways found last minute tweaks to improve including adding more buoyancy to their bows, whether it is enough to prevent a nose dive one doesn't know but if you watch them around the top mark they do back off / depower the wing a little they also did the same nosedive but in their case pitchpoled. The reason for adding buoyancy in their bows though was to assist upwind performance not to prevent pitchpoling.

[Mental Trousers]

What's more embarrassing than losing the cup from a 8-1 advantage?

Listening to all the Kiwi's who at 8-1 were calling the cup ours already and immortalising Dean Barker who are now rubbishing the team, calling them chokers and calling for Barkers head.


Too right.

[oldrider]

Thats exactly what is being said they have emulated team NZ and in lots of ways found last minute tweaks to improve including adding more buoyancy to their bows, whether it is enough to prevent a nose dive one doesn't know but if you watch them around the top mark they do back off / depower the wing a little they also did the same nosedive but in their case pitchpoled. The reason for adding buoyancy in their bows though was to assist upwind performance not to prevent pitchpoling.

Interesting stuff, no doubt about it, every delay (and there were lots of them) was certainly maximised by the total Oracle team!

Credit to their improvement for their (on board) team work during that time they certainly have improved remarkably there!

Still every improvement they find also raises the risk element while they are sailing so I guess ETNZ's best chance now is to maintain pressure and hope for some failure!

Negative I know but when all else fails and your $$$$'s and time run out, what else is there?

Extreme conditions would probably best favour ETNZ for that last race so that there is pressure from all directions ... it's a long shot but! :wait:

[Maha]

The 14 (or however many) people that went up to San Francisco from here, are employees of Team Oracle, it's their job. This time tomorrow, they will still have a job.

ETNZ no longer deserve to win, I still hold out hope that they do, but Oracle have beaten them 10 races to 8 on the water...if it were not for the penalties the regatta would be over by now.

Oracle clearly have the better team and marginally better boat.

[awa355]

Name and shame the 14 bastards who flew up to San Fran to make the yank boat go fast.

These buggers are the ones who may spoil the opportunity of lots of boat refits and sales to overseas clients for the next 5 years.

May even be their own jobs that suffer, good job.

And don't forget all the revamping of the waterfront East of Westhaven that may not now go ahead.

Rick.

You could get your own TVshow with a dumbass atitude like that.

Professional sports people and technicians are entitled to go and work anywhere. NZ would never win a bloody thing if it wasn't for the knowledge and experience gained ( and bought home ) by kiwis working with international teams in all kinds of sports.

I still believe in the NZ teams ability to win tomorrow. :Playnice:

[ckai]

One thing I can say is that Oracle boat is ASTONISHING!

I'd say, maybe the kiwis - TNZ that is ;) - are a very slightly better crew but they've made mistakes lately, be it on the start or, like the second race today, tacking in bloody no mans land. This has cost them dearly.

In the 2nd race, that Oracle boat just keep extending! Nuts. The first race, the kiwi's caught up. I don't fucken get it.

It looked to me that when TNZ made that tack Spittle seemed a bit shocked. He was given the race. Pretty basic error really.

Tomorrow is gonna be a bloody doozy. I can feel it....


and if it's not I'll be bloody disappointed in the lack of Kiwi fighting spirit.

[Road kill]

One thing I can say is that Oracle boat is ASTONISHING!

I'd say, maybe the kiwis - TNZ that is ;) - are a very slightly better crew but they've made mistakes lately, be it on the start or, like the second race today, tacking in bloody no mans land. This has cost them dearly.

In the 2nd race, that Oracle boat just keep extending! Nuts. The first race, the kiwi's caught up. I don't fucken get it.

It looked to me that when TNZ made that tack Spittle seemed a bit shocked. He was given the race. Pretty basic error really.

Tomorrow is gonna be a bloody doozy. I can feel it....


and if it's not I'll be bloody disappointed in the lack of Kiwi fighting spirit.

Bloody aye bro !

Must be those extended nuts I reckon.

[Mental Trousers]

One thing I can say is that Oracle boat is ASTONISHING!

I'd say, maybe the kiwis - TNZ that is ;) - are a very slightly better crew but they've made mistakes lately, be it on the start or, like the second race today, tacking in bloody no mans land. This has cost them dearly.

In the 2nd race, that Oracle boat just keep extending! Nuts. The first race, the kiwi's caught up. I don't fucken get it.

It looked to me that when TNZ made that tack Spittle seemed a bit shocked. He was given the race. Pretty basic error really.

Tomorrow is gonna be a bloody doozy. I can feel it....


and if it's not I'll be bloody disappointed in the lack of Kiwi fighting spirit.

The reason for tacking today was to keep in sync so that Oracle couldn't wriggle past. If you're getting the same air they are they can't find extra speed. Unfortunately, ETNZ didn't have enough of a lead to pull it off and Oracle had found a sweet mode.

But that and the race yesterday where they pulled back a big lead and were seconds away from over taking Oracle then they tacked was because they were tacking back to where the wind that gave them the burst was. But it wasn't there anymore. It should've been the safe bet. Oracle were in a bit of a dead zone and ETNZ were in pressure, but when they tacked there was nothing.

I think I might be calling in sick tomorrow no matter what.

[ckai]

The reason for tacking today was to keep in sync so that Oracle couldn't wriggle past. If you're getting the same air they are they can't find extra speed. Unfortunately, ETNZ didn't have enough of a lead to pull it off and Oracle had found a sweet mode.

Yeah I know why they were tacking in that 2nd race. When they did it though I thought they went slightly too early to do it in front of their faces (like they have done in the past). Looking at it from the chopper view, they definitely did it too early. The crazy thing is it just needed to be 5 seconds later at the absolute max to either force Oracle to starboard or try and dip (which would have been dumb). Oracle didn't even make a correction to dip them. Those buggers are going so fast that, when it's that close, decisions out by seconds make a massive difference.

Davies knew it as soon as they were half way through the tack as well.

Oh well, what's done is done. Makes it the closest Cup every. Great to be a part of that...and win the bugger :)

[Mental Trousers]

Exactly. I thought if they were going to do it at least be on the mark-side of Oracle before tacking. Basic defensive tactics from most sports - stay between the man and the goal.

[oldrider]

Expect the unexpected ETNZ have placed themselves in irons of expectation and seem to be afraid to do anything at all. Poor bastards!

It's all been said a thousand times, they know how to sail their boat just get out there and enjoy themselves, they have nothing to lose now and everything to gain!

They don't have to worry about the safety of their boat because after the next race it is obsolete and redundant ... just go for it and enjoy the moment! :niceone:

I'm still enjoying it, win or lose it's still bloody exciting sailing, whatever!

[Madness]

http://sandysviews.com/2013/09/24/an-open-letter-to-emirates-team-new-zealand-from-team-new-zealand/

[awa355]

The first 30seconds of ' Campbell Live ', Blaa blaa.... Americas cup....., tonight we are going to talk to a head shrink' Switch off time.

[scumdog]

Oh unless you are the quintessential 'Kiwi' whose self-belief rides in the ability of others to make you feel significant.

Too true F.!

We seem to have an overdose of that sort of person - and they seem too vocal about it as well.

[Road kill]

I know squat about sailing and reading about it from the experts has taught me nuffin.

But those other fuckers can still hit a whale an sink,wouldn't that look groovy on Sky at 50mph ?:devil2:.

Go Black.:headbang:

[Ocean1]

Getting emotionally involved with one Auckland-built boat because it's got a picture of a Buzzy Bee on it, versus another Auckland-built boat which doesn't?

I reckon this is a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for Ellison. Win the cup and kill the comp because nobody wants to match budgets with you.

You got it.

I don't think most kiwis know how much of the technology involved in every competing boat from day one has been NZ born and bred.

Which makes the all the rah-rah from the States a little ironic, donchathink.

[MD]

Relax folks. Oracle will be resting under water tomorrow morning. I just emailed the French government that Oracle is a keen supporter of Green Peace, Oracle means 'Rainbow Warrior in Mongolian, they are anti nuke testing and their crew rejected the offer of a fleet of Peugeots calling them puke machines. One thing the French are good at is sinking boats.

[Ocean1]

One thing I can say is that Oracle boat is ASTONISHING!

The difference between the two boats is way less than 1%, it's just that now it's Oracle that's 1% up. It's a sport where a 1% advantage can often be leveraged into a lot more, especially from a leading position.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody's yet asked if all of the recent improvements have been... completely legal.

[oldrider]

The difference between the two boats is way less than 1%, it's just that now it's Oracle that's 1% up. It's a sport where a 1% advantage can often be leveraged into a lot more, especially from a leading position.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody's yet asked if all of the recent improvements have been... completely legal.

I read or heard on TV (or somewhere) that the boat has been altered quite a bit but scrutineers are continually remeasuring and checking the boats all the time!

[Edbear]

I read or heard on TV (or somewhere) that the boat has been altered quite a bit but scrutineers are continually remeasuring and checking the boats all the time!

Yup. Oracle has resubmitted 12 times and TNZ 8 times.

[300weatherby]

Something "funny"going on here....... Not sure everything is as it appears, Orical suddenly found speed ,ETNZ suddenly "lost" it, and from good sound desicion making in the first half, to muppet stuff even I would not have done in the second, somewhat cynical all of a sudden.

[Ocean1]

I read or heard on TV (or somewhere) that the boat has been altered quite a bit but scrutineers are continually remeasuring and checking the boats all the time!

Aye. As was their AC45. The one with all the lead in the bowsprit.

See, half a million bucks and a couple of points docked isn't the real cost of having cheated. The true cost is that people with memories longer than a month look at all of your achievements and say: Oh, really?

[Mental Trousers]

Measuring the boat doesn't detect people hiding a bag of sand when nobody is looking.

[Berries]

I'm surprised, though, that nobody's yet asked if all of the recent improvements have been... completely legal.
Knowing that New Zealand is a nation of such good sports who are gracious in defeat I imagine the question will be asked at about 9am tomorrow, if they lose the only important one. They will win though, call me cynical but the whole thing was done for the ratings, and I don't mean in the nautical sense.

Very interesting re-reading this thread now things are tied. Who'd have thunk it?

[Road kill]

The difference between the two boats is way less than 1%, it's just that now it's Oracle that's 1% up. It's a sport where a 1% advantage can often be leveraged into a lot more, especially from a leading position.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody's yet asked if all of the recent improvements have been... completely legal.

1%ers involved huh,,should'a bloody known it.

At lest if their into it I guess it will be a good after ball party anyway.

Until the cops arrive an start beating up on 14 year olds that is.

[oldrider]

Something "funny"going on here....... Not sure everything is as it appears, Orical suddenly found speed ,ETNZ suddenly "lost" it, and from good sound desicion making in the first half, to muppet stuff even I would not have done in the second, somewhat cynical all of a sudden.

There really is something shifty underlying this whole event especially when considering ETNZ's apparent capitulation and Dean Barkers discomfort in the media!

Never mind at this point all is still equal and "anything" can still happen, so that plus the technology at least keeps it interesting!

It is Larry's event and it is mostly Larry's money and Larry is not the kind of guy who likes to lose!

ETNZ have no money left, but hey they have at least now got Dennis Connor on their side now! (suddenly come out of the woodwork)

At the start I didn't have a favourite boat or crew and was just enjoying the event but as things have progressed I am hoping for ETNZ to pull off a last gasp win today!

That would make it an event with everything!

[Robert Taylor]

The very best to our sailing crew. Like many I have issues with the Americans having so much of their way around the world and it would be great to pip them at the post. They are just so flipping ''loud'' as people with accents that really grate and I find that ''numming''

Just another thought, imagine where we might be as a country if we put as much passion into our work and business enterprise as we do into sport?

[ckai]

I read or heard on TV (or somewhere) that the boat has been altered quite a bit but scrutineers are continually remeasuring and checking the boats all the time!

Their boat also has been catscanned. The scrutineers are going over everything with a fine tooth comb

[Naki Rat]

Cubic dollars wins :(

[oneofsix]

just because the racing is over doesn't mean the cup is finished :wait: could be the lawyers turn yet. :nya:

[Road kill]

Congrat's team USA.

It was always going to be the team with the most money and the best tech that won,and at that level it should be.

Now let the game begin:laugh:

[mashman]

Oracle sorted the boat out and learned how to pilot the thing going upwind. Job done, technology or not.

[ellipsis]

...I take it that the fast black boat with no sails, with much kiwi design and crewing and fettling beat the other fast black one with no sails that is also mainly kiwi crewed and designed and fettled...yay...that saves us a buck or two over the next four years, polishing up more of the dorkland waterfront so plebs can become experts and piss everywhere...in the wind...

[MisterD]

I'm surprised, though, that nobody's yet asked if all of the recent improvements have been... completely legal.

At first hearing, this stuff about automatic control stuff that's Boeing technology doesn't sound like proper sailing, legal or not.

[Banditbandit]

Oracle have now won 11 races ... THREE more than we did - they deserve the cup ..


Do I now go home and change into black or are we all going out the back to commit suicide ???

Fuck me - it's just a sport - I enjoy watching sports - but they are unimportant frivolities ...

[Banditbandit]

Their boat also has been catscanned.

Huh ??? Did they run a cat over it ??? Looking for mice where they??? Oh wait .. it is a cat ...


http://www.damncat.com/images/cat_scan_gone_wrong.jpg

[nodrog]

America,




FUCK YEAH!

[ckai]

Oh wait .. it is a cat ...



Exactly ;)

[nerrrd]

Oracle have won, good for them they deserved it, but I don't think they've done the America's cup as a competition any favours with the way they've won (if the cost of these boats wasn't enough).

The fact that they were able to modify their boat so successfully while the racing was actually underway will put any future challengers off even more - oops we've started with the wrong boat, never mind we'll just modify it until it's the right boat. Oh, you guys can't afford to do that? Too bad for you.

They should have a 'parc ferme' rule like in Formula 1, sure you can make a some changes to sails / rigging / ballast? etc but that's about it.

My uninformed 2c.

[Trade_nancy]

How about Deano asks Jimbo if he wants to have a best of 4 "funsy regatta" - turn off your Boeing computer controlling your systems - and race us the way mother sport intended...see who has the best boat/crew - not the best computer system.
Manual controls vs automated - a mismatch. Watching the final race - I could not see any evidence of a speed benefit to Oracle except when coming in/out of turns. Commentators rightly pointed to this being cos of automated howze-your-fathers.... Not an even set of technology. Stupid waste of a fabulous sporting spectacle. Needed to see sailors contesting this - not naughts and ones.

[Paul in NZ]

How about Deano asks Jimbo if he wants to have a best of 4 "funsy regatta" - turn off your Boeing computer controlling your systems - and race us the way mother sport intended...see who has the best boat/crew - not the best computer system.
Manual controls vs automated - a mismatch. Watching the final race - I could not see any evidence of a speed benefit to Oracle except when coming in/out of turns. Commentators rightly pointed to this being cos of automated howze-your-fathers.... Not an even set of technology. Stupid waste of a fabulous sporting spectacle. Needed to see sailors contesting this - not naughts and ones.

I kinda agree. Even accepting that the Americas cup IS all about pushing the boundaries it should also be about sailing. Otherwise why not just send out remote controlled boats...

[Jase H]

I kinda agree. Even accepting that the Americas cup IS all about pushing the boundaries it should also be about sailing. Otherwise why not just send out remote controlled boats...

Remote controlled boats, eh? Run by Oracle software, no doubt. I smell a conspiracy here...

[jasonu]

I hope they think carefully where they display the Auld Mug in case some disgruntled Indian (or other indigenous individual who thinks the world owes him) tries to smash it with a hammer...

[awa355]

I enjoyed watching this racing It would have been neat to see the team win it from a purely sporting view but have to wonder, if NZ had won it, they'd need govt money to fund the next boat again. Dont know how the public ( apart from the hospitality and marine industries ) would feel about that.

[Swoop]

Well done Kiwis!

As for team 'Orrible USA. Hope the phonecall to the New York Yacht club was worth it.

[5150]

Any cheap used catamarans on trade me as yet? ;)

[ckai]

Manual controls vs automated - a mismatch. Watching the final race - I could not see any evidence of a speed benefit to Oracle except when coming in/out of turns. Commentators rightly pointed to this being cos of automated howze-your-fathers.... Not an even set of technology. Stupid waste of a fabulous sporting spectacle. Needed to see sailors contesting this - not naughts and ones.

Up wind was a massive tell-tale sign. Oracles boat did bob up and down when on the foils. Solid as a rock. They were also able to get up on the foils faster and more constantly and not drop of them so easily.

The other tell-tale sign was on the very first leg (I think - the very start of the race anyway). Our dude that was in charge of the foils had so much concentration on them it wasn't funny. He looked like it was the hardest he was working during the whole cup. TNZ knew that was the one thing that was going to win or lose the cup. Turns out mere mortals can not compute variations as fast as Skynet.

I really wanna know the system. I'm intrigued how it works everything out and how it runs - power wise and programming wise. It can't be simple and I always thought you weren't allowed stored power on the Cup boats. If it's something like solar power, that's crazy efficiency in the computer power. I also didn't think you were allowed computer power either. So if wasn't that, that's some crazy hydraulics, engineering.

It has to be remembered, those boats weren't intended to foil but TNZ found a way to make it happen within the rules. Oracle took the foiling one step further when they were behind the 8-ball. Clever. It must be bloody close to breaking the rules though.


Any cheap used catamarans on trade me as yet? ;)

:2thumbsup wanna go halfsies?

Did anyone see the next Challenger envelope get handed to the winners??? I didn't ;)

[Winston001]

Either ETNZ will win, or that Arab owned boat will lose to a yacht owned by Ellison.

Yeah mate very prescient, the Arab boat got owned by some Yank.


But a heap of Kiwi designers and sailors are coming home with the dosh.

[Robert Taylor]

How about Deano asks Jimbo if he wants to have a best of 4 "funsy regatta" - turn off your Boeing computer controlling your systems - and race us the way mother sport intended...see who has the best boat/crew - not the best computer system.
Manual controls vs automated - a mismatch. Watching the final race - I could not see any evidence of a speed benefit to Oracle except when coming in/out of turns. Commentators rightly pointed to this being cos of automated howze-your-fathers.... Not an even set of technology. Stupid waste of a fabulous sporting spectacle. Needed to see sailors contesting this - not naughts and ones.

Thats why there are lower formula. There should always be a place for relatively unimpeded technology. I didnt want the Americans to win because I intensely dislike their loud demeanour, but hats off to the technology.

[merv]

Thats why there are lower formula. There should always be a place for relatively unimpeded technology. I didnt want the Americans to win because I intensely dislike their loud demeanour, but hats off to the technology.


No worries Robert your boy won it - says here it was Ben Ainslie's USA so must have been a Pommy team http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/sailing/24274103

The Aussie news had it as an Aussie win too of course.

So sure it was a New Zealand win if our boys built the boat and sailed on it.

Everyone won then.

[oldrider]

It was always about the "Americas Cup" which is not always and never has been about the obvious or fair play, it is always "win at all cost"!

Team Oracle won at all cost by somewhere around about 42 seconds from a team that was racing to a set of slightly different self imposed fair-play rules ... game over!

If one stays clear of the inappropriate fever of nationalism generated by and in NZ then it was a very entertaining event to watch! :corn:

ETNZ punched well above their weight and earned a huge amount of respect but the objective was to "win the cup" at all cost! :kick:

[Berries]

Oh well, worse things happen at sea.






Doh.

[Katman]

In the end, it came down to a battle of watch brands for me.

At least I can still wear my Tag with my head held high.

[Winston001]

At least I can still wear my Tag with my head held high.

Mate - mate do I have a deal for you. A genuine Rolex purchased in the back streets of Kuala Lumpur, only worn by a little old man to church on Sundays. Bargain Bargain!!!!!! and !!!!!!




Ok. So its been sitting in my drawer for 5 years. But I did go to church and am no longer young. And ok the battery is flat. Bloody Swiss. Still, it could be yours with an deposit and twelve easy payments. Whaddya say?

[Winston001]

I really wanna know the system. I'm intrigued how it works everything out and how it runs - power wise and programming wise. It can't be simple and I always thought you weren't allowed stored power on the Cup boats. If it's something like solar power, that's crazy efficiency in the computer power. I also didn't think you were allowed computer power either. So if wasn't that, that's some crazy hydraulics, engineering.

It has to be remembered, those boats weren't intended to foil but TNZ found a way to make it happen within the rules. Oracle took the foiling one step further when they were behind the 8-ball. Clever. It must be bloody close to breaking the rules though.





Good post, didn't know that so will be interested in what comes out.

Tim Smyth boat builder and general manager of Core Builders Composite which built Oracle here in NZ was interviewed on National Radio today. He said the Boeing system was in the boat before the competition. TNZ objected but the jury said too late and no problem.

He also said the story about a planeload of NZ designers being specially flown up was rubbish because they had guys going to San Francisco all the time, and some of them are still there. It was part of the contract plus the boat builders got drawn into the energy of the competition.

Tim Smyths explanation was that Oracle tried radical maneuvers out of desperation and found an extra gear they didn't know was there. Foiling is SciFi stuff and TNZ were the innovators.

Bloody fascinating and NZ was the only other country in the world to be in this final. And least we forget, NZ has competed (and won) in the Americas Cup since 1987.

[neels]

that saves us a buck or two over the next four years, polishing up more of the dorkland waterfront so plebs can become experts and piss everywhere
Couldn't agree more.

To me it looked like a F1 grand prix run over 10 laps to fit a tv schedule, talking to a couple of sailing mates has kind of confirmed this opinion that the short course with fast boats doesn't allow for any serious tactics to come into play. Didn't stop the american(ish) boat shafting the kiwis(ish) boat in the last few races though.

Team New Zealand(ish) just need to get Mr Red Bull on board next time, he seems to be quite good at throwing whatever resources are required at his team of choice to get them at the top of the tree.

Playing millions vs billions you're always going to lose, the only thing I can't figure out is how Oracle have so much money to play with from making such utter, utter, utter crap software.

[Brian d marge]

It was always about the "Americas Cup" which is not always and never has been about the obvious or fair play, it is always "win at all cost"!

Team Oracle won at all cost by somewhere around about 42 seconds from a team that was racing to a set of slightly different self imposed fair-play rules ... game over!

If one stays clear of the inappropriate fever of nationalism generated by and in NZ then it was a very entertaining event to watch! :corn:

ETNZ punched well above their weight and earned a huge amount of respect but the objective was to "win the cup" at all cost! :kick:

agreed. Winning is , erm, winning . coming first not second . You do that by doing everything you can to , erm ,,,,win

As you may be aware , I work at HRC . you should see the amount of money , people , MONEY thrown at project

they are not in the game to come second PERIOD

This is why I dont like , how do we say it ,..... the current mentality of sport , Winners and LOSERS! ... no , sport is there to challenge yourself and to be enjoyed . ....

Valentino Rossi ...I got tenth but we did our best ,,,,,, gold medal right there !


imho

Stephen

[Ocean1]

Tim Smyths explanation was that Oracle tried radical maneuvers out of desperation and found an extra gear they didn't know was there. Foiling is SciFi stuff and TNZ were the innovators.

The one thing that was obvious and that explains the extra speed Oracle gained through the series had nothing to do with tactics, they simply found more lift from their foils.

Looking at the early races in the borderline foiling range upwind where the Kiwis were juuuust up on the foil Oracle was still well down in the water. That's a massive 30% more drag, along with all of the negative effects of lower apparent wind angles and sail efficiencies. Oracle arseholed their bowsprit and changed their jib rig, they learned from the Kiwis tacking and gybing routines and that all helped, but they were still in a slower boat. The most noticable change came after that "maintenance day", in spite of the fact that NZ seemed to have improved throughout those early races Oracle were now foiling at the same speeds, and with much improved stability through tacks.

I'm picking that on day one they saw NZ foiling at slightly lower hullspeeds than they could, and knew that unless they matched them it was all over. They would have immediately called their hydrodynamics consultants, analysed what they could from the race data and made some new foils. That takes about a week, and they got it at least a step in the right direction because a week later they're just about matching the Kiwis foiling abilities. They would have processed the data from that improved set and immediately laid up another set, which explains the extra gear they had in the last few races. In that last race their tactics were notably more conservative, they knew damned well they had the wheels on NZ and once they were clear it showed, they were sitting much higher on their foils, the flash control mechanism finally came into play and it looked solid there.

In hindsight I can imagine them watching the first video of the Kiwi boat foiling a year ago. Like everyone else their jaws would've dropped, and the race started right there.

A lesson in what it takes to win a technology race: Copy whatever works and make it work better, fast.

[oldrider]

In the end was it worth it?

I think so! :niceone:

NZ got a lot of world publicity, not only for being good sailors but also for being good techno-inovators!

As for playing the part of "the mouse that roared" it shouldn't be too hard for another challenge to find well healed backers to finance it.

Should the government be so financially involved next time? ... probably not! :no:

[Jase H]

Couldn't agree more.

To me it looked like a F1 grand prix run over 10 laps to fit a tv schedule, talking to a couple of sailing mates has kind of confirmed this opinion that the short course with fast boats doesn't allow for any serious tactics to come into play. Didn't stop the american(ish) boat shafting the kiwis(ish) boat in the last few races though.

Team New Zealand(ish) just need to get Mr Red Bull on board next time, he seems to be quite good at throwing whatever resources are required at his team of choice to get them at the top of the tree.

Playing millions vs billions you're always going to lose, the only thing I can't figure out is how Oracle have so much money to play with from making such utter, utter, utter crap software.

What are the chances of getting Kim Dotcom to sponsor a boat for his adopted country, d'ya reckon? Mega Team New Zealand does have a good sound to it.

[MisterD]

What are the chances of getting Kim Dotcom to sponsor a boat for his adopted country, d'ya reckon? Mega Team New Zealand does have a good sound to it.

Sounds like a great idea, as long as he goes to the US to support the effort <_<

[Swoop]

What are the chances of getting Kim Dotcom to sponsor a boat for his adopted country, d'ya reckon? Mega Team New Zealand does have a good sound to it.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11131034

[Maha]

Well he is built like a tug and always wears black :corn:

[avgas]

Team New Zealand(ish) just need to get Mr Red Bull on board next time, he seems to be quite good at throwing whatever resources are required at his team of choice to get them at the top of the tree.
They are Oracles.....

But still could do "V" aka Frucor aka Suntory (http://www.suntory.com/)
Who could bank roll the team with Emirates.

Then there is Coke with "Mother". Or Monster Energy.

[Oscar]

Well he is built like a tug and always wears black :corn:

If he went anywhere near the water the Japs would harpoon him.

[Maha]

If he went anywhere near the water the Japs would harpoon him.

Surely Nippon wont enter and challenge for next regatta? :sweatdrop

[Edbear]

Surely Nippon wont enter and challenge for next regatta? :sweatdrop

That would be cool! :yes:

[Maha]

That would be cool! :yes:

Calling Chris Dixon!!...oh no most have forgotten about him jumping ship (well boat) after 87' :corn:

[nerrrd]

What are the chances of getting Kim Dotcom to sponsor a boat for his adopted country, d'ya reckon? Mega Team New Zealand does have a good sound to it.

And he can launder some more of his money at the same time :niceone:, fresh water would be better though.

[scumdog]

If I was King it would be a ten race series.

After the first five races the teams swap boats....THEN we would see who was the better bunch of yachtsmen.

[Maha]

If I was King it would be a ten race series.

After the first five races the teams swap boats....THEN we would see who was the better bunch of yachtsmen.

They could do that with paper/scissors/rock.

[Ocean1]

If I was King it would be a ten race series.

After the first five races the teams swap boats....THEN we would see who was the better bunch of yachtsmen.

It's never been about who's the best yachtsmen, it's about who's got the fastest boat.

There's enough competitions that're all about the best yachtsmen, driver, rider etc etc, it's all the media focusing on, the fucking pilots. They're all good, you could have swapped the crews on those boats and you'd have had exactly the same result. You could do the same for most motorsports disciplines, where the equipment actually matters more than the crew.

This one's for who's the best builders. And there orta be more open-class competitions like it.

[Oakie]

I came to the conclusion a few days ago that I had been watching too much Americas Cup. I was toodling down a piece of two-lane on the way to work and needing to change lanes, my mind told me "I need to tack". I had a wee chuckle to myself.

[Mo NZ]

They are cheating Huas. That's been proved and they were punished.

Then the retro fit something from an aircraft system. Stored power yadeya.

The piss arsed lily livered judges ( who most probable got an all expense holiday or such like, not proven, but suspected, should have grown some nuts and said no.

Ropes ,pullies and hand pumps baby.

cheating huas in my book

stick it up yr arse.

[Ocean1]

What do we think of this, then?: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/americas-cup-what-went-wrong/9213990/Americas-Cup-Data-shows-we-were-faster

[paturoa]

What do we think of this, then?: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/americas-cup-what-went-wrong/9213990/Americas-Cup-Data-shows-we-were-faster

But not VMG faster, which is what the merkins did.

[Ocean1]

But not VMG faster, which is what the merkins did.

Thank's, I was beginning to wonder if I was really really stupid or whether the press really do continuously print utter rubbish.

[paturoa]

It's never been about who's the best yachtsmen, it's about who's got the fastest boat.

This one's for who's the best builders. And there orta be more open-class competitions like it.

Half right,

Yes for builders, and no for yachtsmen. The best yachties are the ones who tune the best designs to get the best speed.

In hindsight the merkin boat always had a faster potential. But I don't think their crew were the best yachties as the zilluns had maxed the potential of their boat way earlier.

[ckai]

It's never been about who's the best yachtsmen, it's about who's got the fastest boat.

There's enough competitions that're all about the best yachtsmen, driver, rider etc etc, it's all the media focusing on, the fucking pilots. They're all good, you could have swapped the crews on those boats and you'd have had exactly the same result. You could do the same for most motorsports disciplines, where the equipment actually matters more than the crew.

This one's for who's the best builders. And there orta be more open-class competitions like it.

This is why I'm getting annoyed with the media lately comparing tnz with comeback loses like the ab's and the silver ferns. That's not comparing apples with apples. Those teams don't have equipment that matters a shit load. It purely comes down to mental ability of the team that's behind to want to win more badly.

You can't tell me tnz weren't fighting their asses off. They got past by a faster boat. Hell, when boat speed didn't matter, and tactics and crew work come into it, they were ahead by over 1.5kms! Then in got taken.

Bloody media.

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 4

[pete376403]

Excellent back story from Wired.com how Ellison took the AmCup
http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/08/ff_americascup_ellison/all/?mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRonuaXOZKXonjHpfsX67OUtT%252 Frn28M3109ad%252BrmPBy%252B2YIBWp8na%252BqWCgseOrQ 8kF0LV86jSs0Uqq0%253D

[pete376403]

It's never been about who's the best yachtsmen, it's about who's got the fastest boat.

Which in turn comes down to who's got the most money.

[Ocean1]

Which in turn comes down to who's got the most money.

Often. NZ came very very close with a lot less money than Oracle spent, though.

So like most other things it's not all about the price, it's about value for money.

[pete376403]

Very very close doesn't count. In 1851, after the very first race, Queen Victoria asked one of her attendants to tell her who was in second place.”Your Majesty, there is no second,” came the reply.
And so it has been ever since.

[Katman]

You can't tell me tnz weren't fighting their asses off.

Speaking of which......

Which of the grinders had that annoying little 'crying like a little bitch' noise?

[McFatty1000]

What do we think of this, then?: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/americas-cup-what-went-wrong/9213990/Americas-Cup-Data-shows-we-were-faster

The data seems to show much of a muchness in speed? Apart from the speeds through the tacks/gybes in which Oracle seem to have the slightly faster speed - shows to me at least that they had their foils all sorted by this point and were just not losing as much speed through the turns.

From what I saw, I'd put the differences down to the development of the boats rather than the teams - by the second week it looked like they were both even in that regard and it was just the equipment making the difference

[nerrrd]

Speaking of which......

Which of the grinders had that annoying little 'crying like a little bitch' noise?

Yeah I noticed that too. Actually wondered at one stage if either boat could have eavesdropped on the other using the broadcast feed, and whether that'd be useful or not. But yeah that was worse than a tennis player, at least they put a bit of effort into their shrieking/grunting.

[ckai]

Speaking of which......

Which of the grinders had that annoying little 'crying like a little bitch' noise?

Probably Ray :-) You could only hear it every so often and let's face it, he's not a strapping lad. Haha.

To be honest my guess would be the big unit that came off the boat with Rob. It wouldn't be Rob because he didn't make any noise rowing (first hand experience).

Tell ya what though, those guys would be fucken machines now. Those boats were harder to wind up and you had to do it faster and more often than any others. Then add in the up hill sprinting...

Like Rob said, he's never done anything so physically demanding. It'll certainly be a new definition of pain.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Katman]

Probably Ray :-) You could only hear it every so often and let's face it, he's not a strapping lad. Haha.

To be honest my guess would be the big unit that came off the boat with Rob. It wouldn't be Rob because he didn't make any noise rowing (first hand experience).



Whoever it was.....

....someone should have given them a stick to bite on.

[BMWST?]

Probably Ray :-) You could only hear it every so often and let's face it, he's not a strapping lad. Haha.

To be honest my guess would be the big unit that came off the boat with Rob. It wouldn't be Rob because he didn't make any noise rowing (first hand experience).

Tell ya what though, those guys would be fucken machines now. Those boats were harder to wind up and you had to do it faster and more often than any others. Then add in the up hill sprinting...

Like Rob said, he's never done anything so physically demanding. It'll certainly be a new definition of pain.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


i wonder why they didnt have a couple of recumbent cycle type "winches"<legs will beat arms any day

[JimO]

[QUOTE=BMWST?;1130617787]i wonder why they didnt have a couple of recumbent cycle type "winches"<legs will="" beat="" arms="" any="" day[="" quote]


not enough room , to hard to get into fast??</legs>

[Berries]

i wonder why they didnt have a couple of recumbent cycle type "winches"<legs will beat arms any day
And seeing as how electrical trickery and motors are now allowed why not power it? If electricity is so critical to these things that they stop if the batteries malfunction as NZ did you might as well make them radio control and race them from the shore.

[Ocean1]

The data seems to show much of a muchness in speed? Apart from the speeds through the tacks/gybes in which Oracle seem to have the slightly faster speed - shows to me at least that they had their foils all sorted by this point and were just not losing as much speed through the turns.

From what I saw, I'd put the differences down to the development of the boats rather than the teams - by the second week it looked like they were both even in that regard and it was just the equipment making the difference

Oh they definitely copied the Kiwis gybing routine, and the tactic of bearing away after a tack to pick up speed and get on the foil before pointing it up again. You could see them trying to get both aspects right as early as the third race, and I'm amazed they never picked up the advantages of either from watching the Loui Vuitton.

But I see here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/9221677/Oracle-deny-computer-aided-alterations-made that Coutts says their advances came from


shape changes to their wingsail and foils and loading more on to their rudders.

And again, it's difficult to believe they didn't have data showing the Kiwis relative speed, angles and foil attitude well before their noses were rubbed in the fact that they had their mode well wrong.

[Swoop]

Very very close doesn't count. In 1851, after the very first race, Queen Victoria asked one of her attendants to tell her who was in second place.”Your Majesty, there is no second,” came the reply.
And so it has been ever since.

Most people don't appreciate the fact that during the first ever race, the American boat went the wrong way around one of the marks. The British were good sportsmen and awarded them the cup...

It has been that way ever since. Either by outright stuff or by simply changing the rules. The New York Yacht club are the masters of this approach.

[Naki Rat]

I found this email recently received interesting, and seems to explain a lot ....


RE ORACLE'S REMARKABLE PERFORMANCE TURNAROUND EXPLAINED .............

It is well recognised that Oracle was having serious foiling stability difficulties at the outset of the regatta and that their performance could not match that of ETNZ. (Emirates Team New Zealand)

Half way through the series it was acknowledged that Oracle had fitted an automatic control to their hydrofoil trim, and that this modification was approved by the measurement authorities.Since this modification Oracle's performance has almost unbelievably improved. This has been “explained” by skipper Jimmy Spithill as being due to the superhuman efforts of the crew to improve their handling skills. However, in view of the intensive training Oracle were able to do, prior to the regatta, with their highly skilled team partner, it seems unlikely that only now have they discovered the “magic bullet” they they clearly have.

It is much more likely to be the result of the modifications, possibly enabled by their surprising decision to use their lay day card and the subsequent lucky postponements.

It must be remembered that this is the first time that this contest has been sailed by yachts “flying “ on hydrofoils and it is probable that new and different criteria should have been applied.

In the aeronautical world it has long been known that the stability of swept wing aircraft can rapidly be lost by uncontrolled yaw leading to a dangerous situation known as “Dutch Roll”.

A device known as “Little Herbie” was developed during the commissioning of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets over 40 years ago, to over come this tendency. Little Herbies, or “Stability Augmentation Systems” (SAS) as these are now designated, are equipped with sensors such as Accelerometers and Gyros which can detect and instigate corrections to stability with a speed and accuracy which exceeds the ability of even experienced airline pilots. They are therefore now installed in virtually all swept-wing aircraft.

The “legality” of this device has been justified and accepted on the basis that it does not actually “drive” the trim of the foils.....this is still performed by the muscle power of the crew, via hydraulic linkages. That may be so, but the device, using it's sensing and directives, has been described as “automatic”. This implies that the trim of the foils is determined by what can only be described as “superhuman” technology.

If this technology has ben used to overcome the foiling stability difficulties of Oracle it will have enabled the use of higher speed/lower drag foils which the crew would otherwise be unable to manage. This would give a significant speed advantage during foiling. This has been clearly in evidence since the modification. Improvement in stability and speed has been staggering.

The high speed/low drag foils do have a downside in light conditions where, due to their lesser lifting characteristic, foiling is difficult or impossible. This was also clearly seen in the abandoned Race #13 when ETNZ were only 4 minutes from the finish, with a lead of over 1000metres..

ETNZ appears to have worked within the constraints of accepted yacht racing rules and the special America's Cup 2013 racing Rules to achieve foiling with these craft. This has been at the cost of using foil characteristics and controls which can be successfully managed by a skilled crew while having to make some concession to pure speed.

Although there is risk of being derided for being a “poor loser”, or a “bad sport” it can not go un-noticed that Team Oracle have already been penalised for cheating, that previous Defenders have been noted for sailing very close to the wind of rule compliance. The recent outpouring of bluff and arrogance from Jimmy Spithill may well be part of a plan to trail red herrings and to draw the attention off the real technological reason for their quite literally astounding comeback.

The question is whether the use of a device which can enhance performance in excess of that achievable by human endeavour should be allowed in a sporting contest?

Is this grounds for protest? At least we should all be aware that this is how desperate sporting entertainment has become.

[BMWST?]

I found this email recently received interesting, and seems to explain a lot ....


at last..an expalantion.I just could not get my head around how much their boat changed.My question is why didnt we do the same?

[oldrider]

I found this email recently received interesting, and seems to explain a lot ....

The event was the "Americas Cup" this sort of shit is part and parcel of it and that is the difference!

New Zealand still thinks it's about a "sporting event" FFS, it's a rich man's play thing like a game of poker or chess with their own rules for challenging with their dollars!

New Zealanders just keep on trying to play the rich man's game while still trying to apply boy scout interpretations of what it's all about! ... How bazaar! :argh:

[Naki Rat]

at last..an expalantion.I just could not get my head around how much their boat changed.My question is why didnt we do the same?


The event was the "Americas Cup" this sort of shit is part and parcel of it and that is the difference!

New Zealand still thinks it's about a "sporting event" FFS, it's a rich man's play thing like a game of poker or chess with their own rules for challenging with their dollars!

New Zealanders just keep on trying to play the rich man's game while still trying to apply boy scout interpretations of what it's all about! ... How bazaar! :argh:Obviously we got beaten by a bigger bank account. It's just interesting to learn the actual mechanics of the situation.

[BMWST?]

The event was the "Americas Cup" this sort of shit is part and parcel of it and that is the difference!

New Zealand still thinks it's about a "sporting event" FFS, it's a rich man's play thing like a game of poker or chess with their own rules for challenging with their dollars!

New Zealanders just keep on trying to play the rich man's game while still trying to apply boy scout interpretations of what it's all about! ... How bazaar! :argh:

i didnt say they were cheating,i was truly baffled as to how they got such a speed change out of the boat...and ffs learn to spell

[Naki Rat]

i didnt say they were cheating,i was truly baffled as to how they got such a speed change out of the boat...and ffs learn to spell
Maybe it was intended as a pun inferring that last week's technology is now available to the highest bidder ;)

[BMWST?]

Maybe it was intended as a pun inferring that last week's technology is now available to the highest bidder ;)

if so it was lost on this halfwit

[oldrider]

if so it was lost on this halfwit

Sorry, no pun, just bad spelling! (I actually agree with you)

Listening to Talk back radio while waiting for family in town, very few NZ's have got the slightest inkling about what this cup is about!

I agree about the "interesting" technology and some of the tricks they are able to incorporate to gain an advantage with but it's never really been about fair play and all that, just $$$$$!

If they (NZr's) want fair play etc they should just concentrate on the Olympics!

Personally I thought the whole event was fantastic and even though Oracle had that technical advantage, they only just managed to learn how to use it to their advantage in the nick of time!

ETNZ took a gamble and lost, simple as that, I don't think taxpayers money should have been involved but bet we got more than our money's worth of publicity out of it!

I have to respect their challenge but at the end of the day they failed to achieve their objective ... to win the cup!

Personally, I don't like Mallard but have to accept that he got away with using taxpayers money to gamble with this time but it shouldn't be accepted as standard custom and practice! IMHO.

[jasonu]

Whoever it was.....

....someone should have given them a stick to bite on.

Maybe he picked that noise up from a couple of late nights in the Castro District... which in turn could also have contributed to the loss.

[Ocean1]

Personally, I don't like Mallard but have to accept that he got away with using taxpayers money to gamble with this time but it shouldn't be accepted as standard custom and practice! IMHO.

Wasn't much of a long shot, every public dollar invested in an Americas cup so far has returned a profit, so why wouldn't you do it again?

I recommend that you ignore the idiots who can't count hollering about how unfair it all is and how the money would be better spent on social welfare.

[BMWST?]

Sorry, no pun, just bad spelling! (I actually agree with you)

Listening to Talk back radio while waiting for family in town, very few NZ's have got the slightest inkling about what this cup is about!

I agree about the "interesting" technology and some of the tricks they are able to incorporate to gain an advantage with but it's never really been about fair play and all that, just $$$$$!

If they (NZr's) want fair play etc they should just concentrate on the Olympics!

Personally I thought the whole event was fantastic and even though Oracle had that technical advantage, they only just managed to learn how to use it to their advantage in the nick of time!

ETNZ took a gamble and lost, simple as that, I don't think taxpayers money should have been involved but bet we got more than our money's worth of publicity out of it!

I have to respect their challenge but at the end of the day they failed to achieve their objective ... to win the cup!

Personally, I don't like Mallard but have to accept that he got away with using taxpayers money to gamble with this time but it shouldn't be accepted as standard custom and practice! IMHO.

i think etnz were the better prepared team.I guess i have been influenced too much from what i have seen in the past..Boat speed is ussually a constant once you get to race three or four.When oracle changed so much i figured teamnz could also make similar tweaks.I was disapointed.

[oldrider]

Knowing all that we know now about the Americas Cup 2013 and Trevor Mallard came to me and said that I had the authority to decide about the government gambling the money on ETNZ, what would I do?

I have to say it would be ... way go Trev, way to go! :niceone: Well done Trevor Mallard! :corn:

[Winston001]

Knowing all that we know now about the Americas Cup 2013 and Trevor Mallard came to me and said that I had the authority to decide about the government gambling the money on ETNZ, what would I do?

I have to say it would be ... way go Trev, way to go! :niceone: Well done Trevor Mallard! :corn:

As best I can recall John, the NZ government has made grants of $20-30 million for every Americas Cup campaign.

In the past I've been opposed to that because the spending has looked like a sop for Auckland's benefit, plus this is a game for wealthy players. Most of the world including Americans don't know anything about the Americas Cup.

However...this time I think the governments support was well worth it. You have to give Larry Ellison credit, he has raised yacht racing to the level of Formula 1. And Formula 1 racing is only for wealthy teams but hundreds of thousands of people love it - both bikes and cars.

So if these SciFi catamarans are the way of the future then bring it on. The main change should be to reduce the cost - the boats are only 20%.

[Berries]

You have to give Larry Ellison credit, he has raised yacht racing to the level of Formula 1.
I have no facts and figures to back this up but the big yawn that is F1 is watched in how many countries? How many people do you think actually watched the Americas Cup, besides a few yanks and little old NZ? Comparing it to F1 seems a bit of stretch to me.

[McFatty1000]

I have no facts and figures to back this up but the big yawn that is F1 is watched in how many countries? How many people do you think actually watched the Americas Cup, besides a few yanks and little old NZ? Comparing it to F1 seems a bit of stretch to me.

Yeah, this is a good point, however, he has made significant headway in bringing it closer to the F1 of sailing though, so credit where credit is due

[BMWST?]

Yeah, this is a good point, however, he has made significant headway in bringing it closer to the F1 of sailing though, so credit where credit is due

exciting to watch for sure..watching them fly round a mark up on the foils of only one hull at 20 knots or whatever sure beats a monohull at 7 or 8

[pete376403]

With friends like this, who needs enemies...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9220499/Air-NZ-snubbed-TNZ-sailors-but-helped-Oracle

In each case both teams wanted to pay to use Air NZs equipment. ETNZ was refused, but Oracle was allowed.

[Berries]

With friends like this, who needs enemies...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9220499/Air-NZ-snubbed-TNZ-sailors-but-helped-Oracle

In each case both teams wanted to pay to use Air NZs equipment. ETNZ was refused, but Oracle was allowed.
I guess that's what happens when you take the offshore money and become Emirates Team New Zealand.

[BMWST?]

I guess that's what happens when you take the offshore money and become Emirates Team New Zealand.
oracles NZ boat builders were refused at first too but tthey were allowed to after they offered full commercial rates

[pete376403]

oracles NZ boat builders were refused at first too but tthey were allowed to after they offered full commercial rates

ETNZ also offered to pay. Oracles money better or just some Air NZ managers packing a hissy fit because Emirates name was on the boat?

However what goes around comes around. There won't be a whole lot of people flying Air NZ (or any other airline) to come to NZ to watch the next regatta.

[jasonu]

With friends like this, who needs enemies...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9220499/Air-NZ-snubbed-TNZ-sailors-but-helped-Oracle

In each case both teams wanted to pay to use Air NZs equipment. ETNZ was refused, but Oracle was allowed.

Looks like sound business decisions to me.

[ckai]

I found this email recently received interesting, and seems to explain a lot

Excellent. Thanks for that. Makes perfect sense when you connect all the dots.

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 4

[oldrider]

Celebrating "failure" ... the New Zealand way! :shifty: http://www.3news.co.nz/Auckland-set-to-welcome-home-Team-NZ/tabid/415/articleID/315672/Default.aspx

[jasonu]

Celebrating "failure" ... the New Zealand way! :shifty: http://www.3news.co.nz/Auckland-set-to-welcome-home-Team-NZ/tabid/415/articleID/315672/Default.aspx

Couldn't they find someone a bit more current than that little twat Dave Dobbin to do the entertaining???

[wysper]

at last..an expalantion.I just could not get my head around how much their boat changed.My question is why didnt we do the same?

My guess would be ETNZ couldn't afford to. My understanding is the 4 foils cost about 1.6 million. Not to mention the gyro system. No idea what that would cost.
So even if ETNZ wanted to, the probably didn't have the funds to do so.

[jasonu]

My guess would be ETNZ couldn't afford to. My understanding is the 4 foils cost about 1.6 million. Not to mention the gyro system. No idea what that would cost.
So even if ETNZ wanted to, the probably didn't have the connections to do so.

Fixed it for ya

[scumdog]

Celebrating "failure" ... the New Zealand way! :shifty: http://www.3news.co.nz/Auckland-set-to-welcome-home-Team-NZ/tabid/415/articleID/315672/Default.aspx

Meh, with a playing field that wasn't level I reckon that's a harsh comment John!

[Maha]

Meh, with a playing field that wasn't level I reckon that's a harsh comment John!

To be fair, It only became ''non level'' once ETNZ looked like not winning...wasn't mentioned at all when the score was 8-1 to ETNZ.

[Ocean1]

To be fair, It only became ''non level'' once ETNZ looked like not winning...wasn't mentioned at all when the score was 8-1 to ETNZ.

Bullshit, it was always non-level, it's just not the Kiwi way to bitch about it.

The godamn yanks were the ones mostly pointing out the disparity of resources.

[oldrider]

Meh, with a playing field that wasn't level I reckon that's a harsh comment John!

Time for a reality check!

They failed to win the cup ... that was the intention ... the playing field was not an unknown and had to be inclusive in the reckoning!

They are asking for more money for another crack, so it will simply be ground hog day all over again unless they do something different!

The reaction to their effort is emotionally driven their loss and failure to win is simply "fact" so how much money will they need to win next time?

Like I said time for a reality check!

[JimO]

its only a few mill, we spend more than that a day keeping the maori population locked up in the can

[scumdog]

its only a few mill, we spend more than that a day keeping the population locked up in the can

With less return...

[oldrider]

The missing ingredient has always been Sir Russell Coutts ... now that man really knows how to win Americas Cups! :eek5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Coutts

[Ocean1]

The missing ingredient has always been Sir Russell Coutts ... now that man really knows how to win Americas Cups! :eek5:

He's a very very smart cookie. You don't lose so much in translation when your chief sailor is also your chief engineer.

[unstuck]

The missing ingredient has always been Sir Russell Coutts ... now that man really knows how to win Americas Cups! :eek5:

Good bugger to work for too.:niceone:

[Maha]

Bullshit, it was always non-level, it's just not the Kiwi way to bitch about it.

The godamn yanks were the ones mostly pointing out the disparity of resources.

...I said, it wasn't mentioned at all when the score was 8-1 to ETNZ, which is correct.

[Ocean1]

...I said, it wasn't mentioned at all when the score was 8-1 to ETNZ, which is correct.

Perhaps you didn't hear it before that. The relative funding of both teams had been mentioned by the US press since the Loui Vuitton.

Your comment sounded like criticism of the NZ contingent for making excuses when things started to go tits up, which I certainly didn't hear at any time.

[oldrider]

Of course some people have closed minds but : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11132657

Ill directed emotional inaccuracies could be the downfall of NZ supporters. :kick:

[nerrrd]

Celebrating "failure" ... the New Zealand way! :shifty: http://www.3news.co.nz/Auckland-set-to-welcome-home-Team-NZ/tabid/415/articleID/315672/Default.aspx

Jeez don't they deserve a pat on the back for coming so close? That's not "celebrating failure" in my book.

And they'd be mad not to grab Coutts if he makes himself available, the guy has shown he's got what it takes time and time again.

[jasonu]

it's just not the Kiwi way to bitch about it.

.

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme
That's a good one.

[Maha]

Perhaps you didn't hear it before that. The relative funding of both teams had been mentioned by the US press since the Loui Vuitton.

Your comment sounded like criticism of the NZ contingent for making excuses when things started to go tits up, which I certainly didn't hear at any time.

I was just stating a fact, no criticism of the team at all. ETMZ didn't say anything about the state of fairness to my knowledge, it was the reporters, they seemed to be looking for a reason as to why Oracle were the suddenly the better team at the regatta.

[Ocean1]

That's a good one.

Well you do get the odd import that bleats like fuck, but the traditional Kiwi is fairly stoical.

We do, unfortunately have a tendency to kick the shit out of our very best at the slightest excuse, but even that is a fairly recent trend.

[BMWST?]

I was just a stating fact, no criticism of the team at all. ETMZ didn't say anything about the state of fairness to my knowledge, it was the reporters, they seemed to be looking for a reason as to why Oracle were the suddenly the better team at the regatta.

and thats understandable imho.In the past its been pretty well predictable outcomes that if a boat has superior speed thats ussually the writing on the wall.And Oracle did find a lot of boat speed no matter what Coutts and Spittle say.We have never seen that before AFAIK.Wether thats purely down to better sailing is a long stretch in my book,what were they doing for 2 years?

[oldrider]

Jeez don't they deserve a pat on the back for coming so close? That's not "celebrating failure" in my book.

And they'd be mad not to grab Coutts if he makes himself available, the guy has shown he's got what it takes time and time again.

That is an entirely different issue, they (ETNZ) did not campaign and raise funds to see how well they could do!

They campaigned to "win the Americas cup" ... on that issue they failed!

Why did they fail ... they were beaten by a better resourced and better performed Oracle team USA!

Now New Zealand is embarking on a repeat performance, will they be campaigning on "winning the Americas cup"?

Or will they be campaigning to performing well and remaining the best of the rest ... I.E. winning the Louis Vuitton Cup and representing New Zealand well overseas?

If it is the latter, that is what they should be celebrating because that is what they triumphed at!

Reality check is matching expectations with achievable results I.E. Winning the "Louis Vuitton Cup" and maybe, just maybe getting lucky with the Americas Cup?

Perhaps getting Russell Coutts back (the real hero of the "Americas cup") might be the magic missing ingredient, now that would be worth celebrating! :yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Vuitton_Cup

[nerrrd]

Why did they fail ... they were beaten by a better resourced and better performed Oracle team USA!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Vuitton_Cup

Not going to pretend I have a clue how much effort actually has to go in to mounting a credible challenge let alone winning 8 races in the finals, but that boat and the way they sailed it looked like a magnificent achievement to me - and one worth celebrating.

I doubt anyone involved went into it without every intention of winning; as far as I'm concerned (and i think even Coutts alluded to this) if it weren't for the weather delays Oracle wouldn't have had time to get their shit together, and would have lost, so if not luck, then at least 'circumstance' played a role in their win. Even billionaires can't control the weather...yet?

[BMWST?]

Not going to pretend I have a clue how much effort actually has to go in to mounting a credible challenge let alone winning 8 races in the finals, but that boat and the way they sailed it looked like a magnificent achievement to me - and one worth celebrating.

I doubt anyone involved went into it without every intention of winning; as far as I'm concerned (and i think even Coutts alluded to this) if it weren't for the weather delays Oracle wouldn't have had time to get their shit together, and would have lost, so if not luck, then at least 'circumstance' played a role in their win. Even billionaires can't control the weather...yet?


agreed,if things had been only marginally different ,slightly more wind in the race we ran out of time in...we WOULD of won it

[jasonu]

Well you do get the odd import that bleats like fuck, but the traditional Kiwi is fairly stoical.

Fair enough then.

We do, unfortunately have a tendency to kick the shit out of our very best at the slightest excuse, but even that is a fairly recent trend.

That is another good one. For as long as I can remember we kiwis have always taken great pleasure in slagging our top folks. Tall poppy syndrome and all that.

[Ocean1]

That is another good one. For as long as I can remember we kiwis have always taken great pleasure in slagging our top folks. Tall poppy syndrome and all that.

By recent I mean this generation. The spectator generation.

I never heard a discouraging word uttered among my parents and their contemporaries.

[oldrider]

agreed,if things had been only marginally different ,slightly more wind in the race we ran out of time in...we WOULD of won it

Very true ... but how many dollars will it take to make that difference next time so that our expectations are kept realistic? :confused:

[BMWST?]

Very true ... but how many dollars will it take to make that difference next time so that our expectations are kept realistic? :confused:

I think our expectations have been reset

[Swoop]

By recent I mean this generation. The spectator generation.

Commonly known as "the attention span generation".

Or lack thereof.

[scumdog]

That is another good one. For as long as I can remember we kiwis have always taken great pleasure in slagging our top folks. Tall poppy syndrome and all that.

Just this weekend I was talking to somebody who had bought a flash classic car.

Part of the reason the previous owner sold it was that he constantly got serious comments of "You must be earning way too much" "How did you managed to afford a car like that" and similar snide remarks. (yeah, I know he needed to harden up!)

But common theme - you own something flash worth a bit of coin and the green eyes come out straight away...