America's Cup

[awa355]

Up untill the start of the racing I had been quite dismissive of this ' sport ' . The politics, and lack of teams reinforced my impression of a rich mans sport ( and it is ).

But having watched the four races to date, I'm loving it. These 'Cats' are fantastic to watch compared to the monohulls of the past.

They are sailing right on the edge. The manouvering is amazing considering it is only wind power pushing them.

Grant Dalton had talked of going back to monohulls if NZ wins. I hope they dont. :2thumbsup:2thumbsup

[Paul in NZ]

If they keep the AC72's (whatever) then no one else will be able to afford to race..

How about a fleet race demo derby on a figure 8 course?

Nah - they are bloody exciting things but very expensive...

[Maha]

I doubt they will go back to mono hulls now, it's a bit like the evolvement of cricket when ODI's were introduced...now the more popular aspect of the sport, thought the purists would disagree.

What gives me a giggle is the talk of the next Cup being held in NZ already, and how Auckland needs to start acting on it. Dubai seems the logical place where the next America's Cup will be held IF Emirates team New Zealand win it (Note the main sponor?)

[Gremlin]

I love watching footage of the AC72's foiling, and I don't follow yatching at all. What amazes me is in the pre-start, going slow, right, race is on, boats pop out of the water and accelerate away... Uh? Accelerate? Wind speed is wind speed, but apparently not.

Nearly reaching triple the wind speed at times, don't ask me what Newton thinks of that :wacko:

[awa355]

I love watching footage of the AC72's foiling, and I don't follow yatching at all. What amazes me is in the pre-start, going slow, right, race is on, boats pop out of the water and accelerate away... Uh? Accelerate? Wind speed is wind speed, but apparently not.

Nearly reaching triple the wind speed at times, don't ask me what Newton thinks of that :wacko:

Thats what I find amazing to watch, the skimming across the water and the tight turns. I keep looking for the prop wake out the back of the hulls.

Unfortunately, after the actual racing stops, ( and if TNZ win ), all the bullshit will start again. We will hear about all the millions of dollars that are going to flood into NZ. How ' ALL' of NZ will benefit. It will be 95/96 and 2011 all over again.

Meantime, I'll just enjoy the action on the water.

[Paul in NZ]

I love watching footage of the AC72's foiling, and I don't follow yatching at all. What amazes me is in the pre-start, going slow, right, race is on, boats pop out of the water and accelerate away... Uh? Accelerate? Wind speed is wind speed, but apparently not.

Nearly reaching triple the wind speed at times, don't ask me what Newton thinks of that :wacko:

Even a crappy old Hobie 16 generates an awesome amount of power in the right conditions. The feeling when it suddenly goes 'twang' and accelerates is something to behold. Gawd knows what it must feel like on those monsters....

[98tls]

Whens the next race?

[Banditbandit]

Yeah .. they are fast .. and looks fucking fun as well ... it's a rich man's sport but the cats are definitely a good spectator sport as well ....

[MisterD]

Nearly reaching triple the wind speed at times, don't ask me what Newton thinks of that :wacko:

He thinks a = F/m

HTH

[onearmedbandit]

Whens the next race?


Tomorrow morning I think.

[wysper]

I love watching footage of the AC72's foiling, and I don't follow yatching at all. What amazes me is in the pre-start, going slow, right, race is on, boats pop out of the water and accelerate away... Uh? Accelerate? Wind speed is wind speed, but apparently not.

Nearly reaching triple the wind speed at times, don't ask me what Newton thinks of that :wacko:

I believe once they are up on the foils, drag from the two hulls is now gone hence the acceleration.

[Brian d marge]

Yes , once on foils drag is gone , lots of it, they don't ARF scoot along
Personally I don't think it's sailing, you need albatrosses and bare feet and Roger the cabin boy ,,,now that's sailing

Stephen

PS , if ever there is something to show that NZ can punch above its weight ,,,the cup is it , not only is it expensive ,,,but right up there tech wise

[awa355]

Yes , once on foils drag is gone , lots of it, they don't ARF scoot along
Personally I don't think it's sailing, you need albatrosses and bare feet and Roger the cabin boy ,,,now that's sailing

Stephen

PS , if ever there is something to show that NZ can punch above its weight ,,,the cup is it , not only is it expensive ,,,but right up there tech wise

I bet Roger the cabin boy is pleased that sailing has moved on. :buggerd:

[Gremlin]

I believe once they are up on the foils, drag from the two hulls is now gone hence the acceleration.
Correct, even ferries rely on this for speed etc.

Now explain how on earth you make the boat pop out of the water at will :yes:

[300weatherby]

Up untill the start of the racing I had been quite dismissive of this ' sport ' . The politics, and lack of teams reinforced my impression of a rich mans sport ( and it is ).

But having watched the four races to date, I'm loving it. These 'Cats' are fantastic to watch compared to the monohulls of the past.

They are sailing right on the edge. The manouvering is amazing considering it is only wind power pushing them.

Grant Dalton had talked of going back to monohulls if NZ wins. I hope they dont. :2thumbsup:2thumbsup

Couldn't care less about stupid Americas cup, long and drawn out, takes forever and then you get to sailing, even slower, long and drawn out.

And then came the big cats and their nutty as foiling tricks, races that don't take all day and boats that keep you watching in case you miss something!

Boats that actually drag race, do wheelies, pull silly fast turns with just a couple of bits of carbon fibre in the water, boats that threaten to do something dramatic any second- Now I am watching the "stupid" Americas cup, cause it rocks in this format :woohoo:, if they go back to how it was, I'll stop watching weather it's in NZ or not:cause it will be zzzz:

[Swoop]

The racing has been a surprise. I was expecting a far less exciting spectacle, but race three proved that the first beat was as good as any monohull race!
Sadly, the costs involved are ruining the international participation of the event and we will see a return to monohulls to appease the "average" IQ viewer of this event...
Team NZ 2 have come back to win race 4. Sadly a gear breakage will mean that a race will be lost by the smallest of margins. Having 2 races on the same day will also create problems, especially when we see that the challenger has been wearing out their boat and the defender comes in in a better position equipment-wise.

Cat's are an interesting problem. Stupid-fast and pitch-pole like a bastard. Fucking stupid choice of yacht really...


Hopefully NZ do well. Coutts can suck my dick if his faggots lose.

[Edbear]

I'm just gobsmacked at the speed and especially the acceleration! :wacko:TNZ hit 44 knots in race two yesterday! :eek5:

[awa355]

Re Swoop's post. I dont know why people get hung up on Coutts. Him and Butterworth are professional sailors who like rugby/league players are entittled to go wherever they find a new challenge. NZ would probably never have had the cup to start with without them.

One man doesn't make a team. The current sailors are proving that.

[Bassmatt]

Yes , once on foils drag is gone , lots of it, they don't ARF scoot along
Personally I don't think it's sailing, you need albatrosses and bare feet and to roger the cabin boy ,,,now that's sailing

Stephen

PS , if ever there is something to show that NZ can punch above its weight ,,,the cup is it , not only is it expensive ,,,but right up there tech wise

Fixed that for you, Cap'n

[onearmedbandit]

Short piece (in the middle of a longer video) on the foils. Clicking on the link will take you right to the piece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mNM7DSd4P2o#t=3228

[Berries]

What amazes me is in the pre-start, going slow, right, race is on, boats pop out of the water and accelerate away... Uh? Accelerate? Wind speed is wind speed, but apparently not.
Don't quote me, but I think it is something to do with the batteries. You know, the ones where they fail and the boat can't go anywhere. On a sailing boat. Apparently.

[Drew]

If the boats are going directly with the wind, their terminal speed is dictated by the wind speed.

By cutting across the wind at an angle, you can be traveling faster than it. Same principle as being able to sail into the wind by tacking left and right.

How they hold them back, so as to accelerate like that is a mystery. I imagine the foils are just angled down to try and pull the boat into the water.

[Mental Trousers]

The America's Cup has always been great racing when they actually got out on the water in the same type of boats.

Going back to monohulls isn't a bad thing if they're foiling monohulls. Have a look at on youtube for things like bladerider, r class foilers and trifoiler. Scale those fuckers up to 5+ton and step back.

[caseye]

Now MT, that'd be a sight wouldn't it! 10 ton Ocean going racing yacht on a single blade at warp factor 9, look out whale, op's theres 2 now.

[Drew]

Now MT, that'd be a sight wouldn't it! 10 ton Ocean going racing yacht on a single blade at warp factor 9, look out whale, op's theres 2 now.There ya go then. Helps with increasing the falling whale numbers too!

[Ocean1]

If the boats are going directly with the wind, their terminal speed is dictated by the wind speed.

By cutting across the wind at an angle, you can be traveling faster than it. Same principle as being able to sail into the wind by tacking left and right.

Aye. And with most monohulls the best angle to get to the mark is about 45 degrees, don't know what these things are sailing at but it's more, more distance traded off for much more speed.


How they hold them back, so as to accelerate like that is a mystery. I imagine the foils are just angled down to try and pull the boat into the water.

Nope, the foil's not articulated, it's a fixed part of the centreboard, what you're seeing with the abrupt leap out of the water is pure acceleration caused by sheeting in the windsail. The load on the whole system must be fucking unbelievable.

[ckai]

Re Swoop's post. I dont know why people get hung up on Coutts. Him and Butterworth are professional sailors who like rugby/league players are entittled to go wherever they find a new challenge. NZ would probably never have had the cup to start with without them.

One man doesn't make a team. The current sailors are proving that.

I have this discussion with the old man every time the Cup got mentioned. It's like arguing with a 2 year old. I think I finally got through to him when I brought up Gatlin, Henry and Deans. "oh, but that's different".

How's so? Because they didn't beat nz? Build a bridge. Yeah he's a dick but it's also his living. People are telling me they would pass up a 500% pay rise because it was against their own country? Fuck off.

On another note, foiling is here to stay. In some way at least. The cats will either be scaled down (45% chance) or monos will be brought back with the tech (46% chance). The other 9 is for the chance of usa winning it again and racing the 45s, which would be gay because the crew is too small.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Winston001]

I don't think Sir Russell Coutts is a dick. He was the toast of NZ a decade ago. Good for him being the best he can be. We should celebrate that.

Anyway as a rule I've been pretty cynical about the Americas Cup over the past 25 years. Yes its enjoyable to see New Zealanders competing at the top but its a very narrow and exclusive group of people which are largely unknown by the rest of the world.

Even in the United States, the Americas Cup gets brief coverage despite what TVNZ has breathlessly assured us over the last 25 years. I have a kiwi mate living in the USA who is into small yachting and follows the Cup but he acknowledges it's at the back of the sports pages over there. Not much TV coverage unless they are winning.

But this time...

[Winston001]

...gotta say the first time I saw shots of the NZ yacht hydrofoiling on Auckland harbour my jaw dropped. Damn and Damn again. This is science fiction. A boat which flies! :not:

So yeah I'm entranced and it doesn't matter who wins. The sheer pleasure of watching such extreme high tech being pushed beyond rational limits is plenty reward. Its like high risk skiiing or motorcycle racing - absolutely on the edge.

[oldrider]

Americas Cup technology is ..... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit hot! There will be some carnage before it's over, IMHO! Great stuff! :first:

[Road kill]

Americas Cup technology is ..... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit hot! There will be some carnage before it's over, IMHO! Great stuff! :first:

Not gonn'a happen mate.

The Aussies aren't in it.:laugh:

[Kiwi Graham]

I'm loving the spectical of these boats but hugley disappointed by the fact they are so expensive there was no challenge in the lead up to the finals.

Scale the whole thing back, make it more affordable so we can see some racing leading into the finals.

I'd be happy to see mono hulls, technology has moved on in the last 10 yrs so they would be immpressive and more cost effective for more countrys to contend the regatta.

[ckai]

I don't think Sir Russell Coutts is a dick. He was the toast of NZ a decade ago. Good for him being the best he can be. We should celebrate that.

Anyway as a rule I've been pretty cynical about the Americas Cup over the past 25 years. Yes its enjoyable to see New Zealanders competing at the top but its a very narrow and exclusive group of people which are largely unknown by the rest of the world.

Even in the United States, the Americas Cup gets brief coverage despite what TVNZ has breathlessly assured us over the last 25 years. I have a kiwi mate living in the USA who is into small yachting and follows the Cup but he acknowledges it's at the back of the sports pages over there. Not much TV coverage unless they are winning.

But this time...

I mean Coutts is a dick personality wise. Not for what he did. I think what he did was fine.

There's a few yanks complaining about the lack of coverage. I was with tvnz as well to start but at least they're showing the finals and not just online.
I'm quite surprised at how many yanks are anti-nz. Saying we're cocky etc. Kinda annoying really as it couldn't be further from the truth. Thank god is a minority. I've been told the majority of people watching are going for nz. Even the Americans.


...gotta say the first time I saw shots of the NZ yacht hydrofoiling on Auckland harbour my jaw dropped. Damn and Damn again. This is science fiction. A boat which flies! :not:

So yeah I'm entranced and it doesn't matter who wins. The sheer pleasure of watching such extreme high tech being pushed beyond rational limits is plenty reward. Its like high risk skiiing or motorcycle racing - absolutely on the edge.

I used the motor racing analogy as soon as they announced the foils on the boats. I knew it was gonna be nuts.

The father in law was over there recently and picked up a race. He said when they get close you think, yeah they're going pretty fast. Then you see and hear the chase boats struggling to keep up. He said it was just crazy. And he's a motor racer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[MisterD]

Nope, the foil's not articulated, it's a fixed part of the centreboard,

If you watch, there's definitely an ability to change the angle of the foil, not just raise and lower it, so I think they must be able to switch it from a neutral to a lifting angle of attack.




I'd be happy to see mono hulls, technology has moved on in the last 10 yrs so they would be immpressive and more cost effective for more countrys to contend the regatta.

Is it the multihull or that wing sail that adds the cost? Can't see them wanting to go back to flappy bits of material, but then batteries and hydraulics seem plain wrong on a sailing boat.

[Mental Trousers]

Aye. And with most monohulls the best angle to get to the mark is about 45 degrees, don't know what these things are sailing at but it's more, more distance traded off for much more speed.

They're not too different, it looks like the AC72's are at about 42-43 degrees.


Nope, the foil's not articulated, it's a fixed part of the centreboard, what you're seeing with the abrupt leap out of the water is pure acceleration caused by sheeting in the windsail. The load on the whole system must be fucking unbelievable.

Simulations while designing put the highest load on the curve in the daggerboard where it goes from almost vertical to horizontal and was about 15ton


Even in the United States, the Americas Cup gets brief coverage despite what TVNZ has breathlessly assured us over the last 25 years. I have a kiwi mate living in the USA who is into small yachting and follows the Cup but he acknowledges it's at the back of the sports pages over there. Not much TV coverage unless they are winning.

It's not NASCAR so nobody watches by the sound of things.


Americas Cup technology is ..... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit hot! There will be some carnage before it's over, IMHO! Great stuff! :first:

The technology really is amazing stuff. I'm loving it. The America's Cup has always been about cutting edge technology from the day the American's first took the cup off the British using the America, which was so advanced it beat 15 yachts from the Royal Yacht Squadron by 8 minutes.


I'm loving the spectical of these boats but hugley disappointed by the fact they are so expensive there was no challenge in the lead up to the finals.

Scale the whole thing back, make it more affordable so we can see some racing leading into the finals.

I'd be happy to see mono hulls, technology has moved on in the last 10 yrs so they would be immpressive and more cost effective for more countrys to contend the regatta.

There's already been talk about how to scale back the cost. Soft rigs provide about 96-98% of the drive that the wing foils do but cost a fraction of the price. There's other possibilities as well.


The father in law was over there recently and picked up a race. He said when they get close you think, yeah they're going pretty fast. Then you see and hear the chase boats struggling to keep up. He said it was just crazy. And he's a motor racer.


It's crazy shit. Those chase boats are 1200hp built to military specs and when those AC72's come around mark 4 and turn for the finish line they accelerate faster than the chase boats can. Insane.



Nope, the foil's not articulated, it's a fixed part of the centreboard,

If you watch, there's definitely an ability to change the angle of the foil, not just raise and lower it, so I think they must be able to switch it from a neutral to a lifting angle of attack.

The entire daggerboard (the entire curve centreboard/wing) is solid as they're not allowed to have any moving parts or change shape. What they can do, however, is change the angle the daggerboard is mounted. So they can move the entire daggerboard in a few degrees forward or backward to alter the angle of the foil. This gives the control to be stable up on the foils.




I'd be happy to see mono hulls, technology has moved on in the last 10 yrs so they would be immpressive and more cost effective for more countrys to contend the regatta.

Is it the multihull or that wing sail that adds the cost? Can't see them wanting to go back to flappy bits of material, but then batteries and hydraulics seem plain wrong on a sailing boat.

A huge part of the cost has been in the wing. Going back to soft rigs would cut the number of people needed to design and build one of these things in half as the guys who design the wing are completely separate to the guys that design the boat.

There's been a lot of cost in other areas as well though because nobody has seriously match raced big cats like the AC72's. For instance the chase boats have to keep so 400hp is now out to 1200hp and they're finding it difficult to keep up at times. Further down the chain, have you seen the gear the guys are wearing?? It's all needed for safety reasons but it's definitely not a $20 Warehouse wetsuit.

[ckai]

There's been a lot of cost in other areas as well though because nobody has seriously match raced big cats like the AC72's. For instance the chase boats have to keep so 400hp is now out to 1200hp and they're finding it difficult to keep up at times. Further down the chain, have you seen the gear the guys are wearing?? It's all needed for safety reasons but it's definitely not a $20 Warehouse wetsuit.

To put it in perspective, one foil alone is around $400,000. So to put it in context, an F1 steering wheel costs the same. Compare that to the total cost of the entire car and it's similar money for an important, but small in comparison, piece of equipment.

To be honest, I would have thought the complexities of a fabric 'wing' and getting it to work like the fixed wing would be reason enough not to go that way. Yeah there's some massive costs in them but shit, that's some crazy workings to get a fabric to perform the same.

The biggest thing is getting a fabric sail to work with the foils in the same way as the fixed versions do. I just can't see how you would get the fine tuning needed. They'd be even more temperamental bitches. :)

[kevfromcoro]

are the ozzys biffed out?
not getting any coverage here

[ellipsis]

...P Class, America's Cup regatta down in Foveaux Strait...now that would be worth watching...could add it to the Burt Munro festivities, as I'm sure they could squeeze another event in...

[george formby]

Even a crappy old Hobie 16 generates an awesome amount of power in the right conditions. The feeling when it suddenly goes 'twang' and accelerates is something to behold. Gawd knows what it must feel like on those monsters....

Yeah, I occasionally sail on a 50ft trimaran and it's a beast. We race & beat the fast ferry from an (almost) standing start between Russell & Paihia. 0 to 20 knots in a twinkling.

I was wondering how many of the sailors ride bikes after watching Dean Barker chuck his boat right on it's ear in one of the races, it looked like a race bike flipping from peg to peg then having the throttle cracked open at the apex. Spectacular stuff.

I reckon the crews of the chase boats should get a bit of sympathy, too. Smacking across San Francisco Bay chop at 40+ knots cannot be pleasant.

[Swoop]

are the ozzys biffed out?
not getting any coverage here
The Australians decided not to come out and play this time around.

Perhaps we could send them Russell Coutts as a gesture of good will?:devil2:

[Kiwi Graham]

The mericans spat the dummy and flew the white flag for the second race, wonder if they will get any gear breakages that will come back to haunt them.

Do you recon sail NZ will purchase these puppies at the end of all this then we all get the opportunity to go for a skid?

[Mental Trousers]

I was wondering how many of the sailors ride bikes after watching Dean Barker chuck his boat right on it's ear in one of the races, it looked like a race bike flipping from peg to peg then having the throttle cracked open at the apex. Spectacular stuff.

Only one I know of is Grant Dalton. Often see him at Hampton Downs for track days. Obviously, that's only when he's not under contract for yachting cos they don't like him doing anything dangerous (as if being onboard a 5 ton temperamental racing monster at 40 knots is safe).

[Mental Trousers]

To put it in perspective, one foil alone is around $400,000. So to put it in context, an F1 steering wheel costs the same. Compare that to the total cost of the entire car and it's similar money for an important, but small in comparison, piece of equipment.

To be honest, I would have thought the complexities of a fabric 'wing' and getting it to work like the fixed wing would be reason enough not to go that way. Yeah there's some massive costs in them but shit, that's some crazy workings to get a fabric to perform the same.

The biggest thing is getting a fabric sail to work with the foils in the same way as the fixed versions do. I just can't see how you would get the fine tuning needed. They'd be even more temperamental bitches. :)

Apparently combining soft rigs and foils isn't that difficult, but it does require finer control over the foils than the current rules allow to ensure safe and stable foiling.

Larry Ellison wanted to really do things differently with this America's Cup so they wrote the class rules to make the boats totally different from anything previously seen, which is where the wings came from. Wings have an advantage over sails by being able to extract that last <5% of speed out of a breeze, but as the old adage goes the last 5% of performance costs 95% of the budget. Sails, however, have the advantage in that you can change them in the middle of the race to suit the course and conditions. This is something that's really missing with the AC72's and it's something I'd like to see brought back in the next cup. Managing sails is an integral part of sailing from the smallest dinghy to the largest luxury yacht.

[george formby]

Only one I know of is Grant Dalton. Often see him at Hampton Downs for track days. Obviously, that's only when he's not under contract for yachting cos they don't like him doing anything dangerous (as if being onboard a 5 ton temperamental racing monster at 40 knots is safe).

I guess that's part of the spectator appeal. It can go so wrong so quickly. As we have tragically seen.
In one of the races the Oracle boat dug it's snouts in & the onboard cameras showed the crew doing horizontal bungee jumping. Looked bruising.
First time I've ever ooohed & aaaaahed over sailing.

[ckai]

Apparently combining soft rigs and foils isn't that difficult, but it does require finer control over the foils than the current rules allow to ensure safe and stable foiling.

Larry Ellison wanted to really do things differently with this America's Cup so they wrote the class rules to make the boats totally different from anything previously seen, which is where the wings came from. Wings have an advantage over sails by being able to extract that last <5% of speed out of a breeze, but as the old adage goes the last 5% of performance costs 95% of the budget. Sails, however, have the advantage in that you can change them in the middle of the race to suit the course and conditions. This is something that's really missing with the AC72's and it's something I'd like to see brought back in the next cup. Managing sails is an integral part of sailing from the smallest dinghy to the largest luxury yacht.

Yeah the sail changing does add another dimension. I'm not really missing the whole spinnaker etc thing though (can't help these suckers mind you). I suppose the wings are a different type of sail management though. It'll definitely be interesting to see which way the winner goes. Ellison, as much as I'm not really a fan, has certainly brought some excitement to it.

I also have a chuckle every time their rule changes, brought in to bring the sailing back into it, come and bite them in the ass. But that's another topic.

[slowpoke]

This America's Cup is exactly like MotoGP: half the battle is won if you've priced most competitors out of the market.

[oldrider]

This America's Cup is exactly like MotoGP: half the battle is won if you've priced most competitors out of the market.

That was what their original intention was, to establish an MotoGP style marine equivalent spectacular ... well, they have done that! :niceone:

Just need more competitors to increase the size of the (world) public interest. :yes:

[Mental Trousers]

Yeah the sail changing does add another dimension. I'm not really missing the whole spinnaker etc thing though (can't help these suckers mind you). I suppose the wings are a different type of sail management though. It'll definitely be interesting to see which way the winner goes. Ellison, as much as I'm not really a fan, has certainly brought some excitement to it.

Ellison was doing what the stupidly rich do, try and price everyone out of the game. But thankfully ETNZ look to be the equal of Oracle so there's a good chance (as of this morning it's looking like a very good chance) that it's going to have a new home.


I also have a chuckle every time their rule changes, brought in to bring the sailing back into it, come and bite them in the ass. But that's another topic.

The America's Cup was always a technology + team work + management + fund raising series. The technology bit only works if you change the rules, otherwise it's all about refinement.


That was what their original intention was, to establish an MotoGP style marine equivalent spectacular ... well, they have done that! :niceone:

Just need more competitors to increase the size of the (world) public interest. :yes:

For the next cup it looks likely they're going the same way as MotoGP - make it a lot cheaper so others can be involved and generate wider interest.

[jasonu]

Even in the United States, the Americas Cup gets brief coverage despite what TVNZ has breathlessly assured us over the last 25 years. I have a kiwi mate living in the USA who is into small yachting and follows the Cup but he acknowledges it's at the back of the sports pages over there. Not much TV coverage unless they are winning.

But this time...

Right on the money there. No one around here knows dick about it or even knows what it is.

[Swoop]

The technology bit only works if you change the rules,
Ellison is a mere novice here... unless he has good connections with the New York Yacht club.

[ellipsis]

...a little bit removed from todays battles, but cool things...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JsuTf_q7IWA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


...money has always dictated the clash and it's outcomes...

[george formby]

I've never thought about it until now but go the money! I can watch 40 dinghies knocking the poo out of each other every weekend, I can watch a race track full of Suzuki Swifts doing ditto or get my arse down to a megaburb & enjoy a field of buckets banging elbows, but for sheer spectacle you need dollars. I like these cats, one way or another they are setting a benchmark for the future. Thing is, some bugger still has to drive them, just like a Moto Gp bike. These boats have pilots.
Sailing is now ahead of taxi racing & F1 by a long shot. It used to be well behind Songs of Praise..
How long until this tech gets into ocean racing or even those wee dinghies I mentioned? Or sand yachts? Will they be charged an ACC levy when it does?

[Ocean1]

Even a crappy old Hobie 16 generates an awesome amount of power in the right conditions. The feeling when it suddenly goes 'twang' and accelerates is something to behold.

Aye, but they don't always twang the way you might want. I've pitch-poled a paper tiger a few times, and it bloody hurts.

[Ocean1]

...a little bit removed from todays battles, but cool things...

Yes, the real class and the rule I'd like to see there again. The cats are impressive but it's not sailing. A fleet of J class monsters would be an awesome spectacle that is definitely sailing.

[george formby]

Aye, but they don't always twang the way you might want. I've pitch-poled a paper tiger a few times, and it bloody hurts.

Aye, there in lies the rub. Make a mis-judgement on the big trimaran & it's new undies time.

Anybody have an inkling how to demonstrate wind power, 72ft at 46 knots etc into horsepowers? Or probably more spectacularly, torques..

[awa355]

...a little bit removed from todays battles, but cool things...

Lovely yachts. Not greyhounds but still look quite gracefull.

[Ocean1]

The America's Cup was always a technology + team work + management + fund raising series. The technology bit only works if you change the rules, otherwise it's all about refinement.

Yeah, perhaps. Certainly the Kiwi's success is more pronounced in the early stages of a class development, but the ability to balance those disciplines so they work better than opposition with an order of magnitude more cash is a very powerful reputation to have at any stage. And make no mistake it's being noticed by commercial tech development interests all over again.

[george formby]

Yeah, perhaps. Certainly the Kiwi's success is more pronounced in the early stages of a class development, but the ability to balance those disciplines so they work better than opposition with an order of magnitude more cash is a very powerful reputation to have at any stage. And make no mistake it's being noticed by commercial tech development interests all over again.


I'm still looking for the wire on the boat.....

But yup, great to see our wee country leading the world in such a cutting edge competition. I recall seeing something on the nudes yonks ago, an interview with one of the designers, Kiwi as bloke. He refused to set foot on the boat if it was about to sail.. Home brewed.

[pete376403]

Yes, the real class and the rule I'd like to see there again. The cats are impressive but it's not sailing. A fleet of J class monsters would be an awesome spectacle that is definitely sailing.

That's what Humpty Fay was hoping for when he had the big boat (KZ1) constructed in 1988. Unfortunately for him Dennis Conner answered with a multihull interpretation of the rules.

[AllanB]

Bring back the Clippers I say.

[Road kill]

I dig the big cats,as far as I know their the peak the top of the line the big kahuna and they are most definately sailing.

Fuck the commoners this is about as good as you can get and should be the exclusive reserve of those that can afford it.

Then peasants like me can see the best of the best.

Oracle being deducted points has buggered the real race,,,from here on if TNZ wins it will be by default.

How gutting would/will that be to a true competitor.

[Ocean1]

Aye, there in lies the rub. Make a mis-judgement on the big trimaran & it's new undies time.

Anybody have an inkling how to demonstrate wind power, 72ft at 46 knots etc into horsepowers? Or probably more spectacularly, torques..

There's a common issue in sailing all multi-hulls: the major control inputs are all close to a point where negative feedback becomes positive feedback. Changing the laws of physics takes more than even AC72 budgets, hence the carnage when they get it even slightly wrong.

Only by assessing the power of an engine required to generate that performance. I think MT mentioned the HP of the chase boats, I don't know their displacement, DWL etc but it wouldn't surprise me if required HP was in that ballpark.

[Ocean1]

That's what Humpty Fay was hoping for when he had the big boat (KZ1) constructed in 1988. Unfortunately for him Dennis Conner answered with a multihull interpretation of the rules.

Yeah, but a modern incarnation of Js would still be my pick for the AC rule, huge rigs, big crews, actual sails and actual sail changing.

And while they wouldn't be as fast as the cats their size alone would make them as impressive as fuck.

[Ocean1]

I recall seeing something on the nudes yonks ago, an interview with one of the designers, Kiwi as bloke. He refused to set foot on the boat if it was about to sail.. Home brewed.

Good article about the tech crew here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/9148175/Reason-Boat-designers-not-sailors-the-stars

[Mental Trousers]

I was wondering how many of the sailors ride bikes after watching Dean Barker chuck his boat right on it's ear in one of the races, it looked like a race bike flipping from peg to peg then having the throttle cracked open at the apex. Spectacular stuff.

Only one I know of is Grant Dalton. Often see him at Hampton Downs for track days. Obviously, that's only when he's not under contract for yachting cos they don't like him doing anything dangerous (as if being onboard a 5 ton temperamental racing monster at 40 knots is safe).

I've just realized that one of the designers, Loren Poole, worked on the Britten V1000 and was also a test rider on it. At least I think it's him. There can't be that many kiwi Loren Poole's who worked on Superbikes around.

[nallac]

Only by assessing the power of an engine required to generate that performance. I thing MT mentioned the HP of the chase boats, I don't know their displacement, DWL etc but it wouldn't surprise me if required HP was in that ballpark.

A mate's working for Luna Rossi, he told me there chase boats run 4x300hp Motors or 3x300hp in the case of there lightest boat.
Even then they struggle to keep up..
Heres TNZ's Chase Boat (http://www.morrellimelvin.com/etnztender/) 42' Long 1200Hp

[Mo NZ]

I watched most of the racing with KZ7 etc. And then that that cheating .... Dennis turned up with a cat when we wanted to sail the j class yacht , what a crock.
Oh well cats eh.
I think there is a little unfinished business after we were ripped off.
Then with all the Court stuff I turned off and stopped watching rich mans games and the associated shit that flowed.
Then we decided on a boat that was just an embarrassment and simply would not sail when it got a little breezy or rough.
Then with a little time on my hands I took a look at the latest Challenger Series.....
Bring on the 72's. Holy crap they can honk.
The "O" team are cheats, that's been proved.
Then they play the card designed for a breakage or related stuff, because they need to get better organised.
Not quite cheating but not in the spirit, not cheating but pushing the boundaries towards it.
Well "OH!.." team your in the shit with nowhere to hide and no one to blame when you don't sail well.
These 72's are tricky to sail well.
1 mistake and you can be gone. A poor tack and a wrong option and your very much behind the 8 ball.

I reckon they have the boat behind closed doors trying to figure out how they can change something to make it faster.
I don't they would hesitate to place something inside and almost undetectable, change the weight forward or something illegally,
like they did with the smaller cats. Caught , proved and punished.

" We will do what ever it takes "

I bet you will. Proven.. cheating Hua's that you are.


I think we have to improve our starting, and keep up the crew work.
Keep to the best place on the course and make the gains with the tidal relief from around Alcatraz Island for example. It pays in Spades.

Go the Kiwis.

[pzkpfw]

... Oracle being deducted points has buggered the real race,,,from here on if TNZ wins it will be by default.

How gutting would/will that be to a true competitor.

Depending on the final score.

If N.Z. win by more than 2 points, the point about penalty points is moot, and I don't give a hoot.

If they win with a margin of just 1, then yeah, the penalty means something; but then - what else can they do to Oracle for their cheating?

[awa355]

Making changes to the crew at this stage would suggest that Oracle have lost their direction. This stage of the regatta is not the time to look for new leadership or tactics.

I haven't watched the TVNZ coverage, but there is a you tube channel that has the race in full without any ads that I watch after my morning sleep. Hooked up to the telly it is great viewing.

[Kiwi Graham]

Oracle being deducted points has buggered the real race,,,from here on if TNZ wins it will be by default.

How gutting would/will that be to a true competitor.

A true competitor doesn't cheat :facepalm:

They buggered them selves by cheating, just the same as some of the F1 teams have been delt point penalties in the past. If you cant do the time dont do the crime.

If the form of the two boats continues the penalty points wont mean a thing, looking like ETNZ could win with Oracle having a +2 point advantage :2thumbsup

I just hope that no dirty tactics come in to play and there isnt a 'coming together' out on the course that significantly damages our boat :eek5:

[MisterD]

I just hope that no dirty tactics come in to play and there isnt a 'coming together' out on the course that significantly damages our boat :eek5:

Agreed, lets hope that Spithill doesn't want to become known as sailing's Michael Schumacher...

[Swoop]

Oracle being deducted points has buggered the real race
I disagree. The ruling of penalty points and "go race on the water" is a good decision for two reasons.
1. IF the US had a fast, competitive boat, the penalty points wouldn't make a difference in the final outcome.
2. A message needed to be sent to all competitors, that cheating will not be tolerated.

Finding quantities of lead hidden in the carbon layers? However did that get there?


You are correct with the "rich man's sport" description.

[awa355]

Can someone explain the difference between jybing and tacking? Are they required to do so many of each on each leg or are these simply positional manouvers?

[Mo NZ]

Can someone explain the difference between jybing and tacking? Are they required to do so many of each on each leg or are these simply positional manouvers?

A jibe or gybe is a sailing maneuver whereby a sailing vessel reaching downwind turns its stern through the wind, such that the wind direction changes from one side of the boat to the other. For square-rigged ships, this maneuver is called wearing ship.

In this maneuver, the mainsail will cross the center of the boat while the jib is pulled to the other side of the boat. If the spinnaker is up, the pole will have to be manually moved to the other side, to remain opposite the mainsail. In a dinghy, raising the centerboard can reduce the risk of capsizing during what can be a somewhat violent maneuver.

The other way to change the side of the boat that faces the wind is turning the bow of the boat into, and then through, the direction of the wind. This operation is known as tacking or coming about.

How many you do is up to you but usually only done to the minimum to reach the weigh point required.

[Paul in NZ]

Aye, but they don't always twang the way you might want. I've pitch-poled a paper tiger a few times, and it bloody hurts.

Yup - been out on the wire still moving forwards at flank speed while the hulls have essentially stopped and thinking - 'oh shit this is going to HURT' and then suffered the indignity of the 'safety boat' guys rolling around on their deck laughing their tits off... bastards.... You just mistime one wave crest and......

[oldrider]

Agreed, lets hope that Spithill doesn't want to become known as sailing's Michael Schumacher...

Best not to overlook that Spithill "is" ... Australian! ... nough said! ;)

[paturoa]

Can someone explain the difference between jybing and tacking? Are they required to do so many of each on each leg or are these simply positional manouvers?

When the boat is heading into the wind, a turn through the direction of the wind it is called a tack. When the wind is coming from behind the boat it is called a gybe.

The complication with cats like these (compared to conventional yachts) is that when traveling / going in the same direction as the wind, the wind is still coming from the front of the boat. Spooky!

Conventional yachts would have the wind coming from the rear and would use sails like spinnakers and are essentially limited to no faster than the wind when going down hill.

[george formby]

When the boat is heading into the wind, a turn through the direction of the wind it is called a tack. When the wind is coming from behind the boat it is called a gybe.

The complication with cats like these (compared to conventional yachts) is that when traveling / going in the same direction as the wind, the wind is still coming from the front of the boat. Spooky!

Conventional yachts would have the wind coming from the rear and would use sails like spinnakers and are essentially limited to no faster than the wind when going down hill.

Learn something new everyday. Cheers.

The bold bit is how the Tri feels, getting your head blown off with the wind behind you:crazy:

[Mo NZ]

Yeah cheers.

Just don't ask me how they can do 40kts in 20kts of wind. I have read it, seen it, and still trying to get my head around it.

[MisterD]

Just don't ask me how they can do 40kts in 20kts of wind. I have read it, seen it, and still trying to get my head around it.

You need to stop thinking of the sail as something that pushes the boat along - even with flappy sails, they work like wings, creating a pressure difference on either side due to the air flow over them. The sail gives a force one way, the water won't let the boat move sideways so the result is that it's "squeezed" forwards.

Sailors will tell you that fast boats "make their own wind"...

[Ocean1]

A jibe or gybe is a sailing maneuver whereby a sailing vessel reaching downwind turns its stern through the wind, such that the wind direction changes from one side of the boat to the other. For square-rigged ships, this maneuver is called wearing ship.

In this maneuver, the mainsail will cross the center of the boat while the jib is pulled to the other side of the boat. If the spinnaker is up, the pole will have to be manually moved to the other side, to remain opposite the mainsail. In a dinghy, raising the centerboard can reduce the risk of capsizing during what can be a somewhat violent maneuver.

The other way to change the side of the boat that faces the wind is turning the bow of the boat into, and then through, the direction of the wind. This operation is known as tacking or coming about.

How many you do is up to you but usually only done to the minimum to reach the weigh point required.

Not quite. Wearing ship is what a square rigger did in heavy weather or when short handed. When head to wind instead of tacking you'd bear away until the wind was aft, keep going through some 300 degrees until head to wind again on the opposite tack. Easier to do and kinder on the rig but it costs a lot in terms of windward progress.

[Ocean1]

Learn something new everyday. Cheers.

The bold bit is how the Tri feels, getting your head blown off with the wind behind you:crazy:

Yes, the apparent wind on multis can be a long, long way fwd of the actual wind.

[Edbear]

You need to stop thinking of the sail as something that pushes the boat along - even with flappy sails, they work like wings, creating a pressure difference on either side due to the air flow over them. The sail gives a force one way, the water won't let the boat move sideways so the result is that it's "squeezed" forwards.

Sailors will tell you that fast boats "make their own wind"...

Bit like some fast riders on KB...:lol:

[george formby]

Not quite. Wearing ship is what a square rigger did in heavy weather or when short handed. When head to wind instead of tacking you'd bear away until the wind was aft, keep going through some 300 degrees until head to wind again on the opposite tack. Easier to do and kinder on the rig but it costs a lot in terms of windward progress.

Thank you Horatio. I've learned more about sailing in this thread than all my trips on the water combined.

[Brian d marge]

When the boat is heading into the wind, a turn through the direction of the wind it is called a tack. When the wind is coming from behind the boat it is called a gybe.

The complication with cats like these (compared to conventional yachts) is that when traveling / going in the same direction as the wind, the wind is still coming from the front of the boat. Spooky!

Conventional yachts would have the wind coming from the rear and would use sails like spinnakers and are essentially limited to no faster than the wind when going down hill.
ok kow does that work

if boat going in same direction how does wind come from front of boat ...

Stephen

[george formby]

Might as well give my mate a plug seeing as I'm rabbiting on about it. At about 3:15 he is sailing straight with the wind. Very cool way to go when the sun is shining. No sensation of wind at all

Te Kaihau (http://youtu.be/DtHbObfygzE)

Not bad for a homemade boat, eh?

[Ocean1]

Thank you Horatio. I've learned more about sailing in this thread than all my trips on the water combined.

Not 300 degrees in fact, closer to 240. Most of the old dears couldn’t lie closer than 6 points, (66deg) if they got caught with a coast to leeward in a blow they were often fukt.

Which leads nicely to "club hauling".

[Ocean1]

ok kow does that work

if boat going in same direction how does wind come from front of boat ...

Stephen

Ignoring friction and a shitload of other factors... if the boat's going exactly downwind it doesn't work, but if they bear away to say 45 deg then the windspeed over the sails is much higher. High enough to increase speed by more than the increased distance. It means the wind on your boat moves forward, which means you bear away more, which means more speed.......

In the case of those cats the speed difference is enough to mean foiling... or not. Which makes the difference huge, they can get to the leeward mark in almost half the time by travelling 1 1/2 times the distance.

[Ocean1]

Might as well give my mate a plug seeing as I'm rabbiting on about it. At about 3:15 he is sailing straight with the wind. Very cool way to go when the sun is shining. No sensation of wind at all

Te Kaihau (http://youtu.be/DtHbObfygzE)

Not bad for a homemade boat, eh?

Very nice.

Not kosher, though, really. I mean, like voltswagens and outboard motors they're un-natural, against gods will.

[george formby]

Very nice.

Not kosher, though, really. I mean, like voltswagens and outboard motors they're un-natural, against gods will.

You might have a point. He rides a Ducati. Thing is, he's made it reliable.

[jasonu]

I'm still looking for the wire on the boat.....

But yup, great to see our wee country leading the world in such a cutting edge competition. .

Not really leading the world. More like first in a 4 horse race.
Totally cool all the same. I am really enjoying the racing even though it doesn't play live here.

[jasonu]

I watched most of the racing with KZ7 etc. And then that that cheating .... Dennis turned up with a cat when we wanted to sail the j class yacht , what a crock.
.

Na mate, TNZ got what it deserved there. That wanker Michael Fay and his lawyer boyfriends found a loophole that allowed them to not have to wait for 4 years for the next challenge. There was no time or interest from other teams for a LVC. So the yanks said fuck ya and showed up with the cat. The rest is history.
Looking forward to a TNZ win.

[Ocean1]

Na mate, TNZ got what it deserved there. That wanker Michael Fay and his lawyer boyfriends found a loophole that allowed them to not have to wait for 4 years for the next challenge. There was no time or interest from other teams for a LVC. So the yanks said fuck ya and showed up with the cat. The rest is history.


Not quite. I don't actually know the bloke, but what his team did was simply read the rules and realise that the American format wasn't actually the way it was originally intended. From there I'd have done exactly the same, challenge the holders as I was allowed, with the boat rules that gave me the advantage rather than have the class dictated by the holders.

The very first cup race was characterised by bitter controversy off the water, it’s always been a very rich man's game and a lot of very rich men tend to run roughshod over ethical considerations that stand between them and success. Which, let's face it, is ugly and there's more than a hint of that ethos in the current holder's camp.

The actual sailing is a bit of a by-product, we rarely see equally matched teams sailing for the prize, but we do see occasional flashes of technical brilliance, and for me that's the buzz, there’s few sports that depend quite as much on, (or even allow) sheer engineering excellence.

[Ocean1]

You might have a point. He rides a Ducati. Thing is, he's made it reliable.

which is more than I did with mine. Good luck to him.

[Brian d marge]

Ignoring friction and a shitload of other factors... if the boat's going exactly downwind it doesn't work, but if they bear away to say 45 deg then the windspeed over the sails is much higher. High enough to increase speed by more than the increased distance. It means the wind on your boat moves forward, which means you bear away more, which means more speed.......

In the case of those cats the speed difference is enough to mean foiling... or not. Which makes the difference huge, they can get to the leeward mark in almost half the time by travelling 1 1/2 times the distance.
So its a wing , the shape of which changes the speed over the leading edge and top surface so that the "wind" you move into would be the vortex shed by the foil , ie the wing accelerates the wind speed

Have I got that right?

Im still with the cabin boy and first mate bates , or Master as we know him

Thanks for that

Stephen

[Ocean1]

So its a wing , the shape of which changes the speed over the leading edge and top surface so that the "wind" you move into would be the vortex shed by the foil , ie the wing accelerates the wind speed

Have I got that right?

Im still with the cabin boy and first mate bates , or Master as we know him

Thanks for that

Stephen

Yeah, but that effect isn't what changes the apparent wind angle onboard. As I said going directly downwind and with the sail extracting 100% of the wind energy and the boat being completely without drag then your maximum speed = windspeed.

Bear away to 45 degrees with the same assumptions and the boatspeed = windspeed + tangent of that angle, about 1 1/2 times windspeed. And what's more the wind as felt on board is both faster and coming from further forward, purely because of the boat's speed, and that makes a rigid wing rig, (in particular) more efficient. Some would say the boat is making it's own wind, and it's an effect that becomes self-propagating, sort of feeds off itself, until you hit the peak of that velocity/angle curve, and that peak on a high performance multi can result in boatspeeds more than twice windspeed.

[Blackbird]

That'll teach them to call our boat a tractor! :bleh:

[MisterD]

That'll teach them to call our boat a tractor! :bleh:

Probably the wrong choice of insult, given the where Ed Hillary managed to get to with slightly modified Fergies...

[yod]

That'll teach them to call our boat a tractor! :bleh:

if ours is a tractor, theirs is a brick!!

[Mo NZ]

Apparently there is a super yacht parked beside oracle's super yacht who is flying a kiwi flag.
its owned by an American billionaire.
It seems that Sir Russell C. passed a message through a friend for him to take it down.
I hear he is looking for a bigger flag. :bleh:
priceless.
He says he doesn't back cheaters. hoo ra

here is a link to it

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/yachting/news/article.cfm?c_id=106&objectid=11124005

[Blackbird]

As well as watching on TV, I've been looking at the America's Cup website Virtual Eye function in real time on the iPad. That's an amazing utility which gives a birds eye view showing speed, separation and so on. Watching the upwind leg is a real revelation. You can also speed up the replay of a race on Virtual Eye and that REALLY shows where the gains and losses are made! :niceone:

[Mo NZ]

One thing that really worries me....
They have 2 boats and we have one.

Imagine our difficulty if there is a collision and the boats are significantly damaged.

Answer is they roll out their number 2 boat and say ok lets go racing.
Quote
"We will do what ever it takes"

I'm sure its a consideration.

[Kiwi Graham]

One thing that really worries me....
They have 2 boats and we have one.

Imagine our difficulty if there is a collision and the boats are significantly damaged.

Answer is they roll out their number 2 boat and say ok lets go racing.
Quote
"We will do what ever it takes"

I'm sure its a consideration.

Yep I've eluded to that very tactic too. I hope they dont but.............

[leathel]

I will have to record Sundays races as I will be out riding ... loving the racing :D

[mashman]

Yep I've eluded to that very tactic too. I hope they dont but.............

Been a couple of close shaves recently too.

[ellipsis]

...would them scuttling our boat and winning the rest not make it a draw on the board...it could come down to carbon fibre cutlasses on the wharf if that were so...

[oldrider]

if ours is a tractor, theirs is a brick!!

Actually, I couldn't help noticing how sleek and sharp looking the Oracle boat is when she is really going well but the crew work doesn't seem to match! :no:

[MisterD]

Actually, I couldn't help noticing how sleek and sharp looking the Oracle boat is when she is really going well but the crew work doesn't seem to match! :no:

Very American isn't it? Looks great going in a straight line, but when you have to go around a corner...

[Mental Trousers]

It's more than the crew work. The Oracle boat has narrower hulls forward of the mast so it digs in when they drop off the foils. They've also got a jib that overlaps the wing so when they tack the jib flaps around uselessly for a short while and takes longer to get sorted. There'll be other differences as well.

[jasonu]

One thing that really worries me....
They have 2 boats and we have one.

Imagine our difficulty if there is a collision and the boats are significantly damaged.

Answer is they roll out their number 2 boat and say ok lets go racing.
Quote
"We will do what ever it takes"

I'm sure its a consideration.

Dunno what commentary you lot get in UnZud but in todays thrashing it was said that TNZ don't take any chances particularly in the starting box for that very reason. That and even if they fudge the start they will most likely piss past Spitthill on the track anyway.

[jasonu]

Actually, I couldn't help noticing how sleek and sharp looking the Oracle boat is when she is really going well but the crew work doesn't seem to match! :no:

After todays spectacle it looks to be the other way around.

[Banditbandit]

It's more than the crew work. The Oracle boat has narrower hulls forward of the mast so it digs in when they drop off the foils. They've also got a jib that overlaps the wing so when they tack the jib flaps around uselessly for a short while and takes longer to get sorted. There'll be other differences as well.

Fuck me .... and here I was thinking it was just a faster boat ...

[oldrider]

Bloody hell, just saw a media clip on TV claiming the cup is as good as won .... why don't they shut their fucking mouths until the job is done FFS! :mad:

[Road kill]

Bloody hell, just saw a media clip on TV claiming the cup is as good as won .... why don't they shut their fucking mouths until the job is done FFS! :mad:

Gott'a love the NZ press huh.

Egg on somebodies face if the bloody thing sinks for,,,,, some reason:msn-wink:

[Mental Trousers]

It's more than the crew work. The Oracle boat has narrower hulls forward of the mast so it digs in when they drop off the foils. They've also got a jib that overlaps the wing so when they tack the jib flaps around uselessly for a short while and takes longer to get sorted. There'll be other differences as well.

Fuck me .... and here I was thinking it was just a faster boat ...

Upwind it's only a slight advantage in actual speed, but ETNZ lose less when tacking etc due to team work and boat design.

[ckai]

Very American isn't it? Looks great going in a straight line, but when you have to go around a corner...

Haha shit, I never thought of that but that's exactly what's happening. Bloody cold that is.

I think the crew are playing a big part in that as well. When they work together they're decent. Problem is, that's just not happening. Probably don't like following an Ozzie.

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 4

[mossy1200]

It puzzles me how NZ can be a world leader but we arnt a rich country.

[pete376403]

It puzzles me how NZ can be a world leader but we arnt a rich country.

Seems that whenever we come up with something unique, the rush is on to see who we can sell the technology to, when we should be keeping the technology and selling the end product.

[Road kill]

Seems that whenever we come up with something unique, the rush is on to see who we can sell the technology to, when we should be keeping the technology and selling the end product.

In today's world if you don't sell it,it will simply be stolen and claimed as theirs by the thieves.

So you may as well get something because the alternative is that you get nothing.

The yanks stolen the tech for the jet engine from the Brits after they couldn't work it out for themselves and those thieving bloody aussies stole the Pavola from the Edmonds cook book.

Cunts.

[Ocean1]

Upwind it's only a slight advantage in actual speed, but ETNZ lose less when tacking etc due to team work and boat design.

They're pointing higher too.

[Ocean1]

Seems that whenever we come up with something unique, the rush is on to see who we can sell the technology to, when we should be keeping the technology and selling the end product.

At the risk of generalising a complex topic it's because we're innovative, have had to be because we either couldn't get or afford equipment available to businesses in other countries, so we grew up as a country having to make do.

But we aren't necessarily good at manufacturing, economies of scale and comfortable employment policy make it much less likely to work well here.

A lot of multinationals have bought up NZ companies, eventually moved their manufacturing off-shore and tried to keep a development team here. It's a fairly common series of events, but without direct exposure to the market it never seems to work, and sooner or later the design element is closed down too.

[Maha]

All Oracle need to do is ram the NZ boat in the second race tomorrow, use the old 'smidsy' rule...Team NZ do not have a second boat so they will have to borrow one, I know, that Artemis one could be leased perhaps?

[caseye]

If anything of the sort did happen,then WW3 would break out in San Francisco.
Seriously if for any reason we needed another boat, then PRADA is the sister ship to ours and I'm bloody certain that we'd be offered her in a heartbeat.
Don't go giving these yanks any more ideas you lot, they're dumb enough to think doing something like this would work for them without putting the idea in their heads.

[Hobbyhorse]

Caseye I am not leaving home for the blue ribbon run until after the second race. If you want to drop by to watch it that is just fine and we can leave here at about 09.40 and still be in time.

[caseye]

Caseye I am not leaving home for the blue ribbon run until after the second race. If you want to drop by to watch it that is just fine and we can leave here at about 09.40 and still be in time.

Appreciate the offer mate, but got a mob of LOR coming up to ride off from my place to Pakuranga, so sadly, not this time.Be seeing you there after the races I'm sure.

[Mental Trousers]

Looks like Oracle have probably changed their foil package. Most likely bigger foils so it's easier to keep up on the foils.

[Mo NZ]

Yep, they have made changes.
Also they have sharpened up the crew work.
They are faster upwind than last time.
We really have a match race now ladies.

I think Dean is going to top up the hydro fluid and check the roll bar mounts,
after changing his undies. What a moment.

[skippa1]

Yep, they have made changes.
Also they have sharpened up the crew work.
They are faster upwind than last time.
We really have a match race now ladies.

I think Dean is going to top up the hydro fluid and check the roll bar mounts,
after changing his undies. What a moment.

Holy shit what a moment all right!:crazy: That was so close.....lucky they didn't start bailing off

[paturoa]

We will hear soon if it was a gear or people fail for not setting the main for the tack. I've got a small cat and it is no fun in that situration as the rudder has less effect as it is more trying to lift the hull out of the water and bury the rear which and make thing worse if the gib is already set. Wierdly when it happens it always seems to happen very quickly, but it is a slow process.

[paturoa]

ok kow does that work ..if boat going in same direction how does wind come from front of boat ...

I learnt in sailing dingies and it was a fun thing to learn in cats.

For this discussion 0 degrees is the wind coming from the front of the boat, 90 degrees directly from the side and 180 degrees from the rear.

- Imagine a cat sitting still in the water at 90 degrees to the wind.

- Now as the cat starts to sail forward, still at 90 degrees to the true wind, the apparent wind direction starts to swing towards the front of the boat. Now if the cat is doing 20 knots water speed in this 20 knot wind the apparent wind direction will swing to 45 degrees.

- These cats can easily do 40 knots water speed in 20 knots of wind in a broad reach (~90 degrees to the wind). At that speed the apparent direction would be 26 degrees (atan .5). The wind speed that the boat experiences is root 5 or 2.23 * 20 = 44.7 knots (you've heard of boats making their own wind).

- So at this heading 90, the apparent wind is 26 degrees at 44 knots. See that scool c maths was useful after all.

- Now start turning this imaginary boat to head "down wind" a little bit. The wind is still coming from the front of the boat and the speed and apparent wind direction is still from the front and way faster than 20 knott true wind.

- With these boats with their wing sails they can turn a long way down wind and keep the boat speed up. This results in their VMG towards the mark being higher than 20 knots (= true wind speed)

- So the boat is heading down wind, and the apparent wind is still from the front of the boat. Hence the boat actually tacks rather than gybes down wind.

[oldrider]

All the breeze flappin yappin of the Kiwi loud mouths claiming premature victory must have got under the sail of ETNZ this morning! :mad:

Looks like we have a boat race on our hands now! :sweatdrop

[Drew]

We have lost from a similar position before haven't we?

[jonbuoy]

A Race?? I don´t see any hydrocarbons being burnt :dodge:

[Mental Trousers]

They were so lucky they got some hydraulic pressure and the wing started to reconfigure. If it hadn't the wing would've kept sucking the boat over onto it's side.

[BMWST?]

looks like they have got the mojo back straight away good start and showing better speed on the first part of the upwind beat.They need to keep an eye on that hydraulic fluid level!

[Mo NZ]

The guys kept on grinding throughout. :clap:
They must be hanging coconuts down there.

[Madness]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/yoOjcDf_dJA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A little too much excitement for that early on a Sunday morning for me.

[awa355]

I see that there is yet another take from the Hitler film, this time a spoof of the Americas cup. Wont bother posting a link to it, This scene has been done to death over various topics.

As for todays race, I went to my usual You tube channel for a complete replay And get, this race is ' not avalible ' All the other races are avalible.

[Mo NZ]

http://tvnz.co.nz/americas-cup-2013/s2013-eprace-8-video-5584517

[onearmedbandit]

I see that there is yet another take from the Hitler film, this time a spoof of the Americas cup. Wont bother posting a link to it, This scene has been done to death over various topics.

As for todays race, I went to my usual You tube channel for a complete replay And get, this race is ' not avalible ' All the other races are avalible.

TVNZ on demand is pretty good.

[awa355]

TVNZ on demand is pretty good.


Thanks, have found the coverage of todays races there. here are a couple of stills from todays races. 287495287496287497287498

[st00ji]

i cant believe no-one has trotted out the tired old powerbands thing yet

[awa355]

Looking at the improved performance of Oracle in todays races, TNZ may not have a straight run to the finish line.

A couple more images from today.

287500 287501 287502

[Winston001]

I learnt in sailing dingies and it was a fun thing to learn in cats.

For this discussion 0 degrees is the wind coming from the front of the boat, 90 degrees directly from the side and 180 degrees from the rear.

- Imagine a cat sitting still in the water at 90 degrees to the wind.

- Now as the cat starts to sail forward, still at 90 degrees to the true wind the apparent wind direction starts to swing towards the front of the boat. Now if the cat is doing 20 knots water speed in this 20 knot wind the apparent wind direction will swing to 45 degrees.

- These cats can easily do 40 knots water speed in 20 knots of wind in a broad reach (~90 degrees to the wind). At that speed the apparent direction would be 26 degrees (atan .5). The wind speed that the boat experiences is root 5 or 2.23 * 20 = 44.7 knots (you've heard of boats making their own wind).

- So at this heading 90, the apparent wind is 26 degrees at 44 knots. See that scool c maths was useful after all.

- Now start turning this imaginary boat to head "down wind" a little bit. The wind is still coming from the front of the boat and the speed and apparent direction and spped is still fromthe front and way faster than the wind.

- With these boats with their wing sails they can turn a long way down wind and keep the boat speed up. This results in their VMG towards the mark being higher than 20 knots (= true wind speed)

- So the boat is heading down wind, and the apparent wind is still from the front of the boat. So they tack rather than gybe down wind.


You have my deepest respect. I remember learning sin, cosine, and tan in maths, and vectors triangles etc but you lost me. Shag, I did physics to the 6th form but even so...does Boyles Law help?? :D

Anyway you are spot on and have saved me a question: on Friday NZL was at 44knts in a 20knt breeze which just seemed so far beyond the possibilities of pressure on a 45 degree face that it was impossible. Clearly it is possible.

[BMWST?]

...does Boyles Law help?? ;:


no sorry it does not,its all about geomety and trig mate,although boyles law can be applied to the hydraulics

[paturoa]

...does Boyles Law help??


...although boyles law can be applied ....

I had a boil on my arse once and I can say without any doubt that that was not fun on a long bike ride!

[ellipsis]

no sorry it does not,its all about geomety and trig mate,although boyles law can be applied to the hydraulics

...and rawleighs for drybaulics...

[Rcktfsh]

I had a boil on my arse once and I can say without any doubt that that was not fun on a long bike ride!

However Sir Russell Coutts when he was plain on Russell Coutts famously won a gold medal at the 84 LA Olympics in the Finn class despite developing a large boil on his arse during the event.

[ellipsis]

...Pinky Lester who commentates and such was one of us Lyttelton louts... played rugby and sung badly in the Royal Hotel afterwards...that was as bad as a boil on the arse...

[BMWST?]

sorry i seem to have stumbled into the associations thread

[Madness]

sorry i seem to have stumbled into the associations thread

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g5dqbsyn5aA/TF8uxYiyjvI/AAAAAAAADAk/FIkdS-yN_n8/s1600/susan_boyle1.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Drew]

I learnt in sailing dingies and it was a fun thing to learn in cats.

For this discussion 0 degrees is the wind coming from the front of the boat, 90 degrees directly from the side and 180 degrees from the rear.

- Imagine a cat sitting still in the water at 90 degrees to the wind.

- Now as the cat starts to sail forward, still at 90 degrees to the true wind the apparent wind direction starts to swing towards the front of the boat. Now if the cat is doing 20 knots water speed in this 20 knot wind the apparent wind direction will swing to 45 degrees.

- These cats can easily do 40 knots water speed in 20 knots of wind in a broad reach (~90 degrees to the wind). At that speed the apparent direction would be 26 degrees (atan .5). The wind speed that the boat experiences is root 5 or 2.23 * 20 = 44.7 knots (you've heard of boats making their own wind).

- So at this heading 90, the apparent wind is 26 degrees at 44 knots. See that scool c maths was useful after all.

- Now start turning this imaginary boat to head "down wind" a little bit. The wind is still coming from the front of the boat and the speed and apparent direction and spped is still fromthe front and way faster than the wind.

- With these boats with their wing sails they can turn a long way down wind and keep the boat speed up. This results in their VMG towards the mark being higher than 20 knots (= true wind speed)

- So the boat is heading down wind, and the apparent wind is still from the front of hte boat. So they tack rather than gybe down wind.It's kinda simple, and tricky at the same time!

So dumb not to consider that once they are traveling at or faster than the wind speed, they essentially have a head wind...of sorts.

My head has caved in again.:doh:

[awa355]

Well, if they flip today, this crowd may be able to help them out. The project for uprighting the Itie liner. They are going to try today to roll the ship.

http://www.theparbucklingproject.com/ May have a job getting onto the website tho', plenty of interest in this rescue.

[willytheekid]

...Spithill tweeted

"No need for a hash tag" and attached a photo of a sign on a noticeboard that read "There is no "I" in: Just beat the F....ers".
http://www.sail-world.com/photos_2011/Alt_AC45NZ1D22_00511.jpg
<_<

Grant Daltons reply...will be in just a few hours :shifty:
http://livesaildie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/dalts.jpg

...I hope they kick the shit out of them today :Punk:



GO TEAM NZ!

[young1]

Go Team New Zealand!!!

[leathel]

well that was not to flash to watch...



Put some of that to the port entry start, some to all the great TV footage showing them exactly how and when to lift and drop boards (even underboat footage )

and some to the Kiwi boat builders they got in last minute to sort there boat.

and maybe up wind with tide might be OK.... where as when we had the better speed was up wind against tide??

We have port entry next so time will tell ......

[Hobbyhorse]

When Deano gets pissed off he sails better.

[paturoa]

Oracle was clearly the slowest boat at the beginning, then they caught up on boat speed. Now their boat is faster mid series. So their brains are working quicker in their camp.

Question is now can they win 7 races before team unzud win 2?

[Mental Trousers]

It's always much easier to win a race from the front. Winning the start up's the odds to about 85% you'll win the race.

I did notice in the second race heading upwind Oracle suddenly found a bit of pressure and closed the gap for that first dip. Being in the right place at the right time certainly doesn't hurt at all.

[oldrider]

Oracle was clearly the slowest boat at the beginning, then they caught up on boat speed. Now their boat is faster mid series. So their brains are working quicker in their camp.

Question is now can they win 7 races before team unzud win 2?

Something tells me that this series will just keep moving along until the two boats are tied and then ETNZ will take the next race for a nail-bighting last gasp win! :corn:

[jasonu]

Something tells me that this series will just keep moving along until the two boats are tied and then ETNZ will take the next race for a nail-bighting last gasp win! :corn:

Hopefully... It was looking like a boring one horse race but since the septics have found something it is way more interesting.

[Edbear]

When Deano gets pissed off he sails better.

Andrew Stroud's the same. A lot of top sports people have that "mongrel" in them. When they decide they are going to win, it's pretty hard to stop them.

[Banditbandit]

So now it's seven one to us ... if Oracle continue to let us win two races for their one, then shortly it's going to be nine to two ... to GOdzone ...

[awa355]

Watched the 10th race on tv on demand. I think I prefer the american commentators to Tasker and Lester.

[Road kill]

Love the post race comments from the skippers.

Barker must have ice in his veins because he's the coolest bugger I've even seen.

[Robert Taylor]

Love the post race comments from the skippers.

Barker must have ice in his veins because he's the coolest bugger I've even seen.

And he doesn't have a scrap of ego. He is an excellent ambassador for our country, all the very best for him.

[Mental Trousers]

Watched the 10th race on tv on demand. I think I prefer the american commentators to Tasker and Lester.

The American commentary is boring, Tasker and Lester do a great job of amping a crowd up. They're really enthusiastic and Peter Lester comes out with alsorts of technical bits about the boats.

Although they're no Peter Montgomery.

[Swoop]

Peter Lester comes out with alsorts of technical bits about the boats.

Although they're no Peter Montgomery.
Pete was involved with the big boat campaign and knows his stuff.
Pete Montcommentary on the other hand...:eek5::tugger:

[Ocean1]

Although they're no Peter Montgomery.


Thank god, couldn't stand his commentary.

[ellipsis]

...Peter Lester knows his stuff..

* Winner OK Dinghy junior World Champion 1974
* Winner OK Dinghy open World Champion 1977
* Helmsmen of the 1987 Admirals Cup winner (World Champion)
* Skipper of the 1993 One Ton Cup winner (World Champion)
* Skippering the winning boats in the 1986 & 1990 Kenwood Cups
* New Zealand Yachtsman of the Year 1977 and 1987
* Competed in three America’s Cup campaigns 1988, 1992 and 1995

[MisterD]

Tasker and Lester do a great job of amping a crowd up.

Martin "stick to yachting" Tasker as I call him. Unfortunately, he won't and will be back to piss me off with his numb-nuttery at the next Tour de France.

[Hobbyhorse]

In the 60s I was crewing on a boat from which Peter Montgomerie was commentating on the A class keeler race at the Auckland Anniversary Regatta, for the sports program on 1ZB. I think it was the first time it had been done for yachting. In his normal excitable manner he was running off the names and places of the boats as they went through the Motuihe Channel and he had them all wrong. I remember taking him to task for it and he said, no one on the boats is listening and the spectators ashore are too far away to see, so what is the problem. I have often wondered about the accuracy of his many broadcasts since then

[oldrider]

Pete was involved with the big boat campaign and knows his stuff.
Pete Montcommentary on the other hand...:eek5::tugger:

Most here would be too young to have ever heard "Winston McCarthy" the famous/infamous rugby commentator post WW2! (got caught out and fired in the end)

Peter Montgomery is the modern day version of Winston .... could make watching grass grow exciting .... doesn't even need to be present at the event! :no:

[Swoop]

In his normal excitable manner he was running off the names and places of the boats as they went through the Motuihe Channel and he had then all wrong.
He knew equally as much about the terminology used, techniques and tactics of sailing. His enthusiasm was his best point and has obviously seen him through until he actually learnt a bit about what was actually happening.

Thank goodness Peter Lester entered the commentary team.

Standing under the big boat when she was ready for testing. The comment was made to him that "Hey Pete, the keel isn't straight". His reply was shrouded with a "we can adjust that" sort of hint that there were more systems inside her than the public would know about.

[Hoon]

Is Tasker the "idiot" commentator of the duo? That guy is a joke and has little if any value to add to the commentary. The smart commentator (Lester?) has to keep correcting him and just talks over the top of him when he needs to like he is just background noise.

[Ocean1]

He knew equally as much about the terminology used, techniques and tactics of sailing. His enthusiasm was his best point and has obviously seen him through until he actually learnt a bit about what was actually happening.

He never did. His continued presence on point for TVNZ sport was simply astonishing, how can a media business get it so wrong? He was an idiot, pure and simple.

[Mental Trousers]

Not a one-off. Ever listened to the commentary for any local motorbike racing??

[Grumph]

...Peter Lester knows his stuff..

* Winner OK Dinghy junior World Champion 1974
* Winner OK Dinghy open World Champion 1977
* Helmsmen of the 1987 Admirals Cup winner (World Champion)
* Skipper of the 1993 One Ton Cup winner (World Champion)
* Skippering the winning boats in the 1986 & 1990 Kenwood Cups
* New Zealand Yachtsman of the Year 1977 and 1987
* Competed in three America’s Cup campaigns 1988, 1992 and 1995

You forgot Lyttelton local and wharfie...did you go to school with him ?
i remember paying him a few times on the wharf, always cheerful, what you see is what you get.
He's probably still on the books somewhere as he was granted leave of absence to go pro yachting...

[ckai]

Is Tasker the "idiot" commentator of the duo? That guy is a joke and has little if any value to add to the commentary. The smart commentator (Lester?) has to keep correcting him and just talks over the top of him when he needs to like he is just background noise.

I'd imagine Tasker is there for the familiar voice aspect. He does all the water sport reporting for TV1. He's pretty passionate about the sport too. It's never seemed to me like Lester is talking over him or anything. He'll correct him like he would any other person that didn't know the details enough. It's LIGHT YEARS better than the BMX commentary we got for the champs and olympics. That's one sport you definitely want US commentary for!

[ellipsis]

You forgot Lyttelton local and wharfie...did you go to school with him ?
i remember paying him a few times on the wharf, always cheerful, what you see is what you get.
He's probably still on the books somewhere as he was granted leave of absence to go pro yachting...

...he was 'pinky' and was just another of the dozens of local yachties that always seemed to be wind and sunburned with big smiles on their faces...a lot of national and international champs came out of that harbour...my bro was into it, did his time boat building at Starks...haven't seen Peter in years...he has added a lot more trophies to his cabinet since I last had a beer with him...

[jasonu]

Not a one-off. Ever listened to the commentary for any local motorbike racing??

That Tony Palmer was a real fucking cock.

[Berries]

Peter Lester comes out with alsorts of technical bits about the boats.
Is he the one who comes out with "Go you good thing"?

:puke:

[pete376403]

Most here would be too young to have ever heard "Winston McCarthy" the famous/infamous rugby commentator post WW2! (got caught out and fired in the end)
"wait for it......its a goal" - that guy? Yeah I remember him.

[oldrider]

"wait for it......its a goal" - that guy? Yeah I remember him.

Yep thats the one .... he started influencing selections by falsely building up certain players in his commentaries but they got onto him and he got the shove! :argh:

[Grumph]

Yep thats the one .... he started influencing selections by falsely building up certain players in his commentaries but they got onto him and he got the shove! :argh:

i think you'll find he got the boot after the '56 Melbourne Olympics. Did a live commentary on the 50K road walk. When Read won, after it was over, thinking the mike was off, he said "wonderful what a pom can do on mutton and milk"....end of career.
I remember the old man laughing at that for days.

[Maha]

Do you think they will remove those two square things on the back of the boat to lighten it up a bit?...they're obviously not helping in any and are just extra weight.

[oldrider]

i think you'll find he got the boot after the '56 Melbourne Olympics. Did a live commentary on the 50K road walk. When Read won, after it was over, thinking the mike was off, he said "wonderful what a pom can do on mutton and milk"....end of career.
I remember the old man laughing at that for days.

Yeah, he was full of shit and I often think (listening to) Peter Montgomery, he is full of the same stuff! :rolleyes:

[pete376403]

Do you think they will remove those two square things on the back of the boat to lighten it up a bit?...they're obviously not helping in any and are just extra weight.

Not sure if they are pie warmers or bar leaners.

[Berries]

Do you think they will remove those two square things on the back of the boat to lighten it up a bit?...they're obviously not helping in any and are just extra weight.
You can't be dissing Sir Dean Barker in this thread surely?

[awa355]

I have been told that there are no more rest days. That the teams have to race each day from now. Not sure if that is correct.

[Kiwi Graham]

With any luck it wil be all done and dusted by today :sweatdrop

[Swoop]

A very nice last race.

Let's go match racing instead of drag racing!

[Mental Trousers]

The boats and the teams are so close now it's all down to who wins the start and I think Oracle have the port side for the next race.

[onearmedbandit]

Racing postponed.

[leathel]

Racing postponed.

and just as we got a upset win in the start.... assuming no penalty protest... But no put of for another day.. Another day where work is hindered :rolleyes:

[mashman]

So, sailing boats that can't sail in over 23/24 knots of wind. WTF is wrong with these people, can't they just reef the sails as applicable, they're professional sailors after all. Tis like MotoGP being called of because the track is moderately damp. Mind you, it is Kiwi and Yank racing.

[Ocean1]

So, sailing boats that can't sail in over 23/24 knots of wind. WTF is wrong with these people, can't they just reef the sails as applicable, they're professional sailors after all. Tis like MotoGP being called of because the track is moderately damp. Mind you, it is Kiwi and Yank racing.

Perhaps you could go and give them a wee motivational speach.

Would double the local windspeed but...

[leathel]

So, sailing boats that can't sail in over 23/24 knots of wind. WTF is wrong with these people, can't they just reef the sails as applicable, they're professional sailors after all. Tis like MotoGP being called of because the track is moderately damp. Mind you, it is Kiwi and Yank racing.


The lower limit was set after one crew member died, At the time Oracyl for for the lower limit...now they find they have an edge in faster winds they would like to up the limit..... But to do that its got to go back through coast guard, race committee etc and by the time its sorted the racing will be over

Oh and ETNZ needs to agree and I cant see that happening when we go better than them in lighter conditions :P

[Big Dave]

What they *need* to do is choose appropriate venues for these big events - like Soccer.

[Edbear]

Nothing much seems to be made of the nationality of the crew and shore crew being mostly non-American. Only one American on the boat and they called up NZ boat builders to fix it.

It is more like TNZ racing TNZ/Aus/UK using USD. :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Perhaps you could go and give them a wee motivational speach.

Would double the local windspeed but...

I could.

Only if I was speaking downwind... perhaps I could take the edge off it so that they could race in conditions that they'd be happy with.


The lower limit was set after one crew member died, At the time Oracyl for for the lower limit...now they find they have an edge in faster winds they would like to up the limit..... But to do that its got to go back through coast guard, race committee etc and by the time its sorted the racing will be over

Oh and ETNZ needs to agree and I cant see that happening when we got better than them in lighter conditions :P

I've no doubt there's safety in mind, tis just a shame that there's "less" sailing iykwim

[oldrider]

It is getting a little tense now .... this morning was a great booster for ETNZ, one win and a really good start to the abandoned second race!

Must play on Spittles nerves, even though he drowns it with Spittlejaw to compensate ... Barker is kinda like a cricket batsman on 99 as dusk approaches!

Oh well, another day another race set tomorrow .... there will be a vacuum in my day when this is all over ... whatever the outcome! :whistle:

[Banditbandit]

So, sailing boats that can't sail in over 23/24 knots of wind. WTF is wrong with these people, can't they just reef the sails as applicable, they're professional sailors after all. Tis like MotoGP being called of because the track is moderately damp. Mind you, it is Kiwi and Yank racing.

But .. but .. the Americas Cup track is much more than "moderately damp " ...

[Swoop]

A great idea to postpone the next race... so plenty of celebrating time over the weekend is available!:drinknsin


Only one American on the boat and they called up NZ boat builders to fix it.
That's why Oracle is referred to as "Team New Zealand B" in certain yachting circles.

[mashman]

But .. but .. the Americas Cup track is much more than "moderately damp " ...

I'd love to see them sail around a MotoGP track.


A great idea to postpone the next race... so plenty of celebrating time over the weekend is available!:drinknsin


Starting at about 8:30am?

[wysper]

So, sailing boats that can't sail in over 23/24 knots of wind. WTF is wrong with these people, can't they just reef the sails as applicable,

Believe not. It is a wing not a sail.

[Swoop]

Starting at about 8:30am?
Damn fooken right!
(all going well...)

[mashman]

Believe not. It is a wing not a sail.

Well they've got the wings on the wong way. Can they reduce the sail? I mean wing.

[wysper]

Well they've got the wings on the wong way. Can they reduce the sail? I mean wing.

I believe the can change the wings, but it is a case of going back to the docks, organising cranes and the like and changing them over.
I am not sure how long it takes or how many different wings they have. Proper term might be wing sail but I am not sure.
Not really a sailing person but this racing has been fantastic and the boats look awesome.

[Paul in NZ]

Well they've got the wings on the wong way. Can they reduce the sail? I mean wing.

Other than replacing it - no.... Its a rigid structure in two or more parts. They can adjust it like an aircraft wing for more/less lift to reduce the effect within limits but not reduce the size of it...

[mashman]

Damn fooken right!
(all going well...)

Hopefully they'll get a similar flying start (given new meaning give the sail) and you'll be off and running noice and early ;).


I believe the can change the wings, but it is a case of going back to the docks, organising cranes and the like and changing them over.
I am not sure how long it takes or how many different wings they have. Proper term might be wing sail but I am not sure.
Not really a sailing person but this racing has been fantastic and the boats look awesome.


Other than replacing it - no.... Its a rigid structure in two or more parts. They can adjust it like an aircraft wing for more/less lift to reduce the effect within limits but not reduce the size of it...

Cheers. Sounds like a helluva job. Kinda takes some of the skill out of sailing to the conditions for me. Still stunning to see them rise out of the water and turn out another 20 knots though.

[awa355]

I could never get hyped up in any previous Americas cup regatta, but these boats have bought a lot of people out of the woodwork.

It is pleasing to see another sports event involving a NZ team that seems to unite a lot of people. If this had've been a political thread, the knives would have been flying thick and fast from page 1.

The cup isn't won yet, but surely they wont let it slip away from this lead.

[Edbear]

I could never get hyped up in any previous Americas cup regatta, but these boats have bought a lot of people out of the woodwork.

It is pleasing to see another sports event involving a NZ team that seems to unite a lot of people. If this had've been a political thread, the knives would have been flying thick and fast from page 1.

The cup isn't won yet, but surely they wont let it slip away from this lead.

They aren't the Warriors. .

[ckai]

The cup isn't won yet, but surely they wont let it slip away from this lead.

You can't bet on anything with sailing really unless one boat/crew is a lot better than the other. There's a certain amount of luck that comes into in (no matter what the pro's say). It only takes one small wind shift and the tables and be turned when they're this close. Also because they're racing on the edge, some crazy shit could happen like, oh I don't know, someone could flip ;)

Oracle have proven you can never say die.

Interesting thing I saw I telly this morning. These buggers can't go under the Auckland Harbour Bridge. That puts it in perspective a little more. Those are some big bitches! And they're not even as big as those two fat buggers that raced to get us to this cup.

[george formby]

I believe the can change the wings, but it is a case of going back to the docks, organising cranes and the like and changing them over.
I am not sure how long it takes or how many different wings they have. Proper term might be wing sail but I am not sure.
Not really a sailing person but this racing has been fantastic and the boats look awesome.

First Amerckan cup that has got me out of the chair. Had a breakfast & racing thing happening at the restaurant this mornin. Not a scurvy sea dog among them. Not a lot of breathing either.
What was up with the start of the 2nd race, 42knts v 17knts at the line & the ref blew the whistle? We still have toast stuck on the ceiling. Could be Larry having a spazz by the wind measuring thingie caused it.
I shall be out the scratcher & poised in the mornin waving me wee flag.

[300weatherby]

Nothing much seems to be made of the nationality of the crew and shore crew being mostly non-American. Only one American on the boat and they called up NZ boat builders to fix it.

It is more like TNZ racing TNZ/Aus/UK using USD. :rolleyes:

There WAS a yank on board, Ellison saw fit to sack him, cause it was all his fault they were losing, funnily enough, they are still losing:laugh:

Oddly, around here we are kinda viewing it as NZ vs AUS, and we wanna see the Spitty boy skipper cry!.

Gotta wonder if they would call it for wind if the Aussie boat won the start and turn one first..............

[ckai]

What was up with the start of the 2nd race, 42knts v 17knts at the line & the ref blew the whistle? We still have toast stuck on the ceiling. Could be Larry having a spazz by the wind measuring thingie caused it.

Yip she was a doozy. But ya can't argue with a computer. The only thing the umpires do now is call the penalties and whether is not worth postponing any longer. The computer does all the weather calls now. It does make it fair (can't blame an Aussie umpire for the dodgy weather calls) but it's bloody annoying they can call a race when they're racing. Never mind. Every race pushed back is a race closer to the changing tide which TNZ are more favoured (that's if things don't go exactly our way).

[george formby]

Yip she was a doozy. But ya can't argue with a computer. The only thing the umpires do now is call the penalties and whether is not worth postponing any longer. The computer does all the weather calls now. It does make it fair (can't blame an Aussie umpire for the dodgy weather calls) but it's bloody annoying they can call a race when they're racing. Never mind. Every race pushed back is a race closer to the changing tide which TNZ are more favoured (that's if things don't go exactly our way).

Give us a chance to scrape off the egg yolk I guess.

[Swoop]

This was in a portaloo in San Fran...

287686

[nallac]

An arse kicking there...

[wysper]

Yep, quicker than us in all stages too by the looks.
There will be some nervous bods on ETNZ now.
And Oracle have port entry in the 2nd race again if it goes.

[oldrider]

It's getting fucking boring now ... like watching grass grow! :wait:

[Mental Trousers]

More often than not the leading boat will pull away on most legs unless the trailing boat finds a bit of extra wind. That's happened in the last few races - Oracle caught right up in race 11, ETNZ pulled back a big chunk in race 12 etc.

It's because the leading boat gets to do what it wants to make best speed while the trailing boat has many options cut off.

The fact that ETNZ won 6 in a row, most of which were coming from behind was because the boats weren't even so our lot could just sail past Oracle. Now the boats are even it isn't that easy and generally the lead boat makes better speed.

[leathel]

Yep, quicker than us in all stages too by the looks.
There will be some nervous bods on ETNZ now.
And Oracle have port entry in the 2nd race again if it goes.


Naah we fluffed the start, but then they did have start advantage, they did get on the foils a few times upwind but overall we took 1 sec out of them.... bad move rounding to the shore side at the top mark as thats were they almost stopped in a tack going up only seconds before .... and trailing through the top mark the gap always blows out but it blew out more due to us heading in to the heavier current and in lighter winds.....

Unfortunately our next Port entry is in the afternoon when the breeze could be up favoring them ...

Time will tell

[awa355]

Oracles win might shut up a few in the NZ media that have tried painting Spithill as a dummy.

[Banditbandit]

http://static.uglyhedgehog.com/upload/2013/9/18/thumb-1379496973396-dog_and_lamppost.jpg

[pzkpfw]

More often than not the leading boat will pull away on most legs unless the trailing boat finds a bit of extra wind. That's happened in the last few races - Oracle caught right up in race 11, ETNZ pulled back a big chunk in race 12 etc.

It's because the leading boat gets to do what it wants to make best speed while the trailing boat has many options cut off.

The fact that ETNZ won 6 in a row, most of which were coming from behind was because the boats weren't even so our lot could just sail past Oracle. Now the boats are even it isn't that easy and generally the lead boat makes better speed.

Sounds like F1.

Maybe they'll start putting gimmicks on the boats like that Nintendo stuff on the cars to make passing happen.

[oldrider]

The sooner that Barker "gobsmacks" Spittle now the better, jumped up yappy little cunt wants taking down a peg .... go ETNZ! :niceone:

[pete376403]

Spitball on the toob tonight saying TNZ should be asking for a higher wind speed limit (ignoring the fact that prior to the event TNZ wanted 25knots and Oracle wanted 20)

Be carefull what you wish for Jimmy - each time the race was called off because of excessive wind speed, TNZ was in front.

[Mo NZ]

Well with lighter winds forecasted, and less tidal effect we will get some racing in.
I know we used to be a little bit better in the lighter stuff....
We only have 1 to win.
My money is on EMNZ.

Not on that bunch of cheating hua's who as Pete picked up about the wind lament.
Dean Barker was the most animated I have seen him throughout the series.
The limits were lowered by regatta director Iain Murray after the fatal capsize of Artemis Racing in May.

"It's quite an interesting point that when the safety recommendations were being discussed, we were very much in favour of 25 knots being the wind limit and at that stage, Oracle wanted it to be 20," reflected Barker. "The middle ground that Iain found was a staggered wind limit. At the time, we thought it was too low, but we accepted it.

"It just seems strange that halfway through a series, they think they need to change a wind limit that has been agreed, when previously they wanted a much lower one.

"Prior to the start of racing, absolutely we would have agreed, but we just don't think it's right to change it in the middle of an event."

Ellison sacks non-performers. Jimmy is a a worried man..


Go the Kiwis on ETNZ.

[Woodman]

Doh! Didn't score any points before the fulltime whistle.

[Mo NZ]

Well S.B.A.F.B.D..

Feels kinda like riding after switching to reserve, winding off of the throttle a bit on the hills, with it being touch and go to make the forecourt of the petrol station without having to do the dreaded push, and being late for somewhere you really want to be.

The upside was the huge psychological hit those Oh boys took.
Look for Jimmy to try to waste time with more luffing and stalling for a similar result.

[Maha]

The sharp end of this regatta is a joke, too much wind, not enough wind, time limit, postponements ...just get out there and sail ya wankers.

[Mo NZ]

The sharp end of this regatta is a joke, too much wind, not enough wind, time limit, postponements ...just get out there and sail ya wankers.

Jeez Maha.
You ( if you watched it) just saw some very good sailing in light conditions.
OTUSA got smashed.

[AllanB]

Pretty sure the rules will be different when it comes back to NZ................. sub clause 77b - deduct points for smart-arse comments from Australian skippers!

[Maha]

Jeez Maha.
You ( if you watched it) just saw some very good sailing in light conditions.
OTUSA got smashed.

...and you watched race two? now that's how to smash it!

[Mo NZ]

Nah mate. We lost that one through very poor tactical sailing :shit:- which gives those buggers another win. Dammit.

[Maha]

What's with that Martin oh so glum waa waa defeatist bag of shit Tasker ?

His theme song (short though it is) must surely be...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UtmI--F8Zmo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Road kill]

Wonder if I'm the only one to notice the US team is maintaining constantly higher speeds and simply out sailing the Kiwis at the moment.

They destroyed TNZ this morning,,,,,,,,,,,,,,choke.<_<

[Maha]

Wonder if I'm the only one to notice the US team is maintaining constantly higher speeds and simply out sailing the Kiwis at the moment.

They destroyed TNZ this morning,,,,,,,,,,,,,,choke.<_<

They have also won more races this week than Team NZ.

[pete376403]

Wonder if I'm the only one to notice the US team is maintaining constantly higher speeds and simply out sailing the Kiwis at the moment.

They destroyed TNZ this morning,,,,,,,,,,,,,,choke.<_<

Just as TNZ destroyed USA in the first race (a moral victory, even if the clock beat them both). It's now so even, that a single mistake is the difference between winnng and loosing. The odds are still 6-1

[Edbear]

Pretty sure the rules will be different when it comes back to NZ................. sub clause 77b - deduct points for smart-arse comments from Australian skippers!

That's assuming there is an Australian skipper in the regatta.


They have also won more races this week than Team NZ.

TNZ has been robbed three times now by the rule book. Each of the three times they were thrashing Oracle. NZ would have had the cup by now.

[Berries]

They have also won more races this week than Team NZ.
And people complain about test match cricket.

[oldrider]

Until they win this thing they are simply just the best of the rest and so far that's the best they can hope for or "raise the anti" and ...... actually , WIN! :first:

Luck has nothing to do with it! :oi-grr:

[pete376403]

Until they win this thing they are simply just the best of the rest and so far that's the best they can hope for or "raise the anti" and ...... actually , WIN! :first:

Luck has nothing to do with it! :oi-grr:

Ray Davies (TNZ tactician) say luck beats skill every time

[Ocean1]

Ray Davies (TNZ tactician) say luck beats skill every time

With wind shifts of 50 degrees you might as well be playing dice mate.

Not quite, perhaps, but it certainly has the effect of massively exaggerating the results.

[ellipsis]

...it's the Americas Cup...it's never been over 'til the fat lady sings...there's a lot at stake for the boys that roll this shit...they dont give a fuck about new hyper yachtie tourist friendly upgrades that we end up paying for ...they just wanna win, lawyers and pride...and a lot of coin...anything can happen at sea and it genarally does...

[oldrider]

Ray Davies (TNZ tactician) say luck beats skill every time

When all else fails ... what else is he going to say? .... I sense a classic "choke" in the making here! :corn: (it's never over till it's over ... unless Fido rolls over on his own accord!)

[Road kill]

Just as TNZ destroyed USA in the first race (a moral victory, even if the clock beat them both). It's now so even, that a single mistake is the difference between winnng and loosing. The odds are still 6-1

That's what I'm telling me as well.:yes:

Go Black.

[BMWST?]

What's with that Martin oh so glum waa waa defeatist bag of shit Tasker ?

His theme song (short though it is) must surely be...



I agree thought that was poor